This is more noticeable on alliance raids, but I hate players that keep the rest hostage by not rolling on loot. Also people that can't wait for other players watching a cutscene
Oh boy the ones with the loot are really something. I mean, one thing is doing it, which is already annoying, but then you keep doing it after others in the raid have started requesting you roll (almost like they've tipped their hand that they are NOT leaving!) 😂 The cutscene pullers are also annoying. I do get where they're coming from, but still though 😅
I can understand the CS pullers’ mindset in CT, but that still doesn’t mean I agree. Come on, guys. You’ve got someone who’s seeing the story for the first time. Just because you want to speedrun and not wait the extra 45 seconds doesn’t mean they deserve to be left behind
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Ah yes, the cutscene pullers. I will never understand why someone would do/wait for a ready check, and then upon seeing that there are indeed a few people that are not ready... they pull? It happens so often lol
Cutscene pullers just annoy me. There's tons of new players that didn't get to experience the "2015 raid". I do remember in one World of Darkness run I was tanking, a MCH pulled on Cloud when people had posted there were cutscenes. All 6 healers watched him die
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I also don't like cutscene pullers, bit did it unintetionally once (missclicked skill button while answering chat message). I apologised after doing so btw. Human words really help
Special shoutouts to ninja pullers on the Atomos fight in Labyrinth of Ancients. Having half the raid in the A lane while only one or two people can fight the boss in the B and C lanes because someone pulls early enough that a lot of people don't make it before the arena is sealed off (and the teleport only takes you to the A lane) and it taking forever as a result is not only one of the least fun experiences the game offers, it also is completely the opposite of the ninja puller's intention (unless they're trying to grief, I suppose).
That example is Bad design leads to toxic play. Boss should be unpullable until all 8 players hit the platform....you can't expect 24 ppl to be considerate anywhere in this world
@@one_eyeddd473 I think LoA in general has some awful design. The initial mob pulls are uninteresting, Bone Dragon is basically just a timewaster, ninja pull shenanigans aside Atomos requires half the raid to stand on platforms and just do nothing, Thanatos has a similar mechanic where only one Alliance can really do anything useful... Not a fan of LoA.
I don't even really blame the players for that most of the time. The fight gets started when anyone steps on the platform (a perfectly valid thing for people to try to do, especially considering how much whinging for groups to "get on the platforms" is done) but that's still very far from any of the Atomos mobs and seemingly out of aggro range, so I don't think most people are even expecting the platforms to be what starts the fight. That combined with the out-of-boss-room teleport always sending everyone to group A's platform basically just has me blaming the design for this one rather than the playerbase.
@@jasonbrown2587 Brudda, wtf is you talking about. It _is_ badly designed. It's very easy to accidently pull it, it aggros from farther away than anything else I've seen. And ready checks are nice and all, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen them blatantly ignored in 24 mans, or even 8 mans. I would love it if everyone was super considerate but you _can't_ expect that because a-holes exist.
@@RockR277I have to agree as well. There have been times where the boss has aggro'd onto me the moment I stepped past the purple line which is why I stand on the stairs now. It's why people don't get hostile with that pull to my knowledge due to the aggro range being so wide
I wanna point out something that I’ve been noticing more frequently lately, and it actually scared me away from tanking back in 2013 until last year when I finally tried tanking again, getting an attitude with someone who is trying to learn a new role. My very first dungeon back in 2013 I was new to tanking and trying to learn. I wasn’t completely sure with what I was doing. The healer says, and I’ll never forget it as it stuck with me for YEARS and i refused to tank in any mmo, “why is our tank such trash?” And proceeded to say some other things. I finally broke past my fear and now my friends consider me one of the best tanks to bring along. I try my best to help new people, and will call out anyone bold enough to attempt what that healer did to me 10 years ago
FFXIV tanks are usually treated much more nicely and given a lot of leeway. Def not like WoW. I've only had two truly terrible tanks for personality reasons, and a third where the entire party had to literally go on strike before the tank would turn on their tank stance
The only ever time I've complained about our tank was just recently, when I turned on tank stance first in a trial and the other person hit theirs like 30 seconds later without saying anything and stole aggro just before the triple spark, before proceeding to fumble when trying to mitigate it and sending the healers into a panic. If I had noticed in time I would have cast cover on them out of spite.
I'm like this with BLM. In Prae of all things, running for moogle tomes, ran it all day,no issues. Then in one of my last runs, the tank calls me trash, saying that he doesn't have all day. So I left and never touched it again till this week.
me and other 2 tanks got called simpletons and drunk for not coordinating well on a Endwalker alliances raid a couple days ago... I assumed the 2 warriors would tank but they were probably newish just like me (Dark Knight). the fight with the siblings was scuffed to hell but we did not wipe at least, it got so bad that the rest of the party had to step in. Should have reported them :( it really made me want to quit the game (mind you I am proging UCOB and been playing the last 3 years). My friend who is a casual player got called a bot for making small pulls. so yes, it is better then wow but recently there are more ppl with things to say @@redjoker365
As a tank main, I typically don't care if someone pulls the next group before me. But, for the love of Hydaelyn, at least pull them towards me so I can grab aggro. I'll only YPYT ninjapullers if I have to keep chasing them all over the map
As a Godcomplexed healer I can agree with your sentiment, someone else then you getting agro is nothing bad, but they should drop them at your location.... only exception might be if a ranged enemy is on their ass.
I tried having this talk with a friend who wanted to main healer and insisted that if she pulled aggro from the tank she'd be better off running the add to a dps. She doesn't play with people anymore..... sad times, but...well....I can understand why she got her butt roasted for it a few times.
my current response to "you pull it you tank it" is "actually no, if for some reason someone other than the tank has aggro please stand literally on the tank til they take it off you please so they can do their job" solves both problems at once, no tanks failing their jobs, and no dps for some reason a million miles away with the adds
I was healing as a SCH once in expert roulette and the DRK tank wasn't using TBN on a mob pull. It's the most conspicuous mit, since the shield actually shows up on their health bar. The pull was nearly a wipe and the tank did die during it. I asked them why they didn't use TBN. Their response? "It's a dps loss"..... For DRK who don't know, TBN is a short duration shield that, if popped, gives you a free mana ability. Meaning that as long as it breaks, it is mana neutral and you get a mit. I explained this to him and he still didn't use it in the second pull and died. I left because the dungeon was gonna be a chore. Unfortunately, you can't heal stupid.
@@one_eyeddd473 sad thing is with FF14 jobs design, all of them are dps. _if_ their TBN shield doesnt break, they lose out on extra damage. TBN, cost MP, and DRK have two dmg abilties, one single target, and other line aoe that also cost MP. DRK extra dmg are directly from these abilities. Basically DRK is poorly designed defensively as TBN needs to break to be refunded free cost of damage ablities but wont break if have too good mitigation from tank themselves and the healer. Its all so counterintuitive 😶
Duno if I agree with leaving, would probably just have left them dead and cleared it with the 2 dps Tanking..... Rezing him is a PERSONALIZED DPS lose after all :3
Can confirm: Talking like a human being resolves most problems most of the time. Had the nicest Mentor Roulette experience the other day where me and the DPS taught a baby tank to pull wall-to-wall. It was great. We got him to use his Mit skills and everything. And it all started with me just asking him to use 'Rampart.' Talk. Ask questions. This community is generally very supportive.
Your mileage may vary. This morning, I let a sprout Scholar know that they should learn the rest of their kit because they wouldn't be able to handle wall pulls if they only used Physick, but it was okay because I was on Warrior. They rage quit.
The vast, vast majority of the time whenever I advise anything in a roulette, I'm met with dead silence and usually an ignoring of said advice. Not even a "FU, you don't pay my sub" but just nothing. I don't think most people doing content in this game are even looking at their chat logs.
@@Philip027 For sure. That's why sometimes you gotta get a bit creative. "Oops...My DoT hit that pack of enemies over there. How could this have happened? Guess we're doing a double pull. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Hey, bud. Maybe you should give that 'Rampart' button a try. I heard it's a pretty good ability."
its a total coin flip, I always wait until a duty is over to make any suggestions to players. then if they are willing to listen, they can take it forward with them, and if they are a pigheaded baby they can flip shit without it negatively effecting the rest of the party.
Worst case of ninjapulling I've ever seen was when I was leveling my first healer job, I loaded into Bardam's and immediately crashed (happened a lot back then, turns out my harddrive was dying). Apparently while I was gone, one of the DPS ran off and tried to start pulling. Tank and other DPS stayed at the start to wait for me. When I got back in the ninjapuller and the tank were arguing because _the healer was literally not there, no we're not pulling yet_ and eventually the puller got kicked. We waited a bit for a replacement and when we finally got one, it turned out it was someone who was watching the original ninjapuller streaming and immediately tried to kick the tank! Which obviously did not go through. He started throwing a fit and we were all like "Really dude". Eventually he calmed down and we actually got through the dungeon together just fine lmao.
Its such a strange coincidence that you posted this video today. Earlier i had a rare bad party experience in expert roulette where the tank had a massive ego. Him and the DPS summoner were bullying the scholar healer saying that he's not doing his job and that a healer is supposed to only heal and not attack - which is an outrageous take especially for a lvl 90 dungeon imo.... we wiped once at a boss fight and then they started grilling the healer. And instead of just being chill, the tank started purposefully standing in all the AOE's racking up vuln stacks. After the 2nd boss i confronted him about it and he decided to just completely stop, not pulling anything. He went on to say "go and show me to kill all them without a tank" and that "a healer must heal a tank, this is the point and i can not trust any healer.". Now it was at this point that i told him to stop being a little bitch in the chat and that we should go, bc this was literally just his huge ego and god complex as a tank talking. He was actively making it more difficult for the healer and then claiming that they weren't healing. At that point we ended up just voting to abandon the duty. I play healer as a main normally so i could see that the healer WAS doing their job perfectly fine. And i did defend them in the chat throughout the dungeon even when i had to use google translate sometimes bc the tank was talking in german sometimes. The bottom line is that it is never okay to behave that way as a tank. Belittling and bullying a healer because of 1 wipe or under any circumstance is not right. Its a rare occurrence but it is very jarring when it does happen.
It not right to bully or belittle someone, regardless of role, IMO. Even if they're doing dumb stuff or aren't very good at their job. If you just can't stand it, leave or initiate a vote kick, but don't be a dick. Some people just want to watch the world burn.
I do occasionally run into former WoW players who don't know healers in FFXIV are actually expected to dps, especially in later content. Most of them just go 'oh, really?' but once in a while you get a butt who thinks they are the only one right and healer should never do dps in group content. Sadly, bullying healers in WoW is an all too common thing, and one of the reasons I never took up the role till I played 14. Only thing I can figure is they will get an ego check when they try to do higher tier content and can't figure out why all of the healers who have lots of clears keep dpsing or can't get into any statics.
vote abandon if you only have 30 minutes to play. vote dismiss tank is better. leaving duty is best. let them wait. you just get 30 minutes penalty. I always leave. I don't want to deal with crazies.
The fact that people can make it to level 90 in this game and still believe such a thing shows how poorly the game actually teaches players. 14 is not like other MMORPGs with solidified job roles, everyone is a dps with some extra stuff depending on the job. Which is how all FF games work really.
As a tank main, I don't mind other people pulling as long as they pull things in a predictable and controllable way. If they pull and stand on me or near enough that I can grab them with an AOE - great! If they pull them and then run around like a chicken with their head cut off, despite that not actually helping them dodge damage and making it harder to group the mobs, that's when it's bad. I've only seen it a few times, but there's also a DPS side to the coin my ex-WoW healer friend refers to as "Healers will adjust" mentality - where the DPS refuse to dodge any AOEs and instead greed their rotations for the sake of maximum parse, and end up putting the whole of their survival onto the healer. Sometimes we joke it's ley line /black mage syndrome. It definitely feels rarer than the ones you brought up though. It would be interesting if there were more DPS downs as the AOE affliction than everything stacking vulnerability. We so rarely see anything outside of poison as status afflictions either.
Haha, as a healer main, those dps who pull aggro and then don't take it to the tank are the bane of my existence! When I'm not healing, I usually play ranged phys, so I run and gun a lot while the tank is pulling and will often pick up some aggro, but best believe I'm running with the tank and sit right tf on the tank's lap when they stop. All the aggro immediately goes poof!
Why would you take it to the tank thats the entire crux of why you are grabbing agros as DPS you have the mobility/are ahead because tank is slow, you pop your mit's since they are being unused other wise and pull to the wall just like you would if you were tanking at that point the tank takes over and you've already built meter and done DPS to the mobs.
@@undercoverspy123 As stated, it's about predictability and control. The expectation is the tank ultimately gets all aggro. If the tank is so far behind because you're a super mobile class, you can bring the mobs to the tank and it won't slow the pull down since killing all the mobs at the end or middle ultimately doesn't matter. The distance is always the same, so the speed at which it is covered is what matters. It actually means dragging them back to the tank is faster whenever peloton is an option, as that same distance is traversed faster when all the mobs are dead.
@@blakenite No you just move them like normal, there is no reason to do any of this tanks have targeted gapclosers and have to use less mitts, and you clear faster if you just pull like a tank would.
@@undercoverspy123 Ah yes, my gap closer, which I got at level... 74. Early enough to use it in 25 of the game's 90 dungeons. Peloton by contrast starts at level 20, and is usable for every dungeon but Satasha and Tamtara deepcroft since Copperbell mines syncs to 20. Maybe if SqEnix decided to move those gap closers back to significantly earlier level wise (which I'd love) you'd have a point. The tank may be able to use the gap closers to chase you if they realize you've run ahead, assuming there are any stragglers they can still target. However, in the vast majority of cases it is better to drag mobs back to the tank if you insist on rushing ahead with mobility skills to pull faster. Again, the sooner they die, the sooner everyone can be sped up via peloton to cover the same distance faster.
I remember the good old days of 4.0 and earlier where every dungeon I got into started with everyone saying hi and agreeing on the pace. I don't expect everyone to wanna talk the whole time but I do miss making friends with strangers every run.
does this not still happen? i personally start every run with a greeting (and end with a gg), and if i'm nervous or inexperienced or rusty etc, i tell the party before we start so that they know what to expect. ive seen some variation of this plenty of times, and i assume that everyone is confident enough if i dont (which can then be further gauged by actual performance, which usually just means pull less on a wipe). on behemoth world btw
@@timestopMachinist less often then it used to atleast on aether in my experience. And when people do its usually just "o/" at the start and "gg tyfp" at the end not many people talk throughout the dungeons anymore especially mentors.
This is true. The wow refugees of bfa shadowbringers wannabee xpac has killed the social identity of ff14. Idgaf what anyone says. Plus I'm sick of the pruning and homogenization of ff since shadowbringers
The amount of times I have stated 'Hey, I'm getting used to my key binds, I might be slow, sorry' at the start of a dungeon/raid/duty, and everyone went 'dw its cool' is so nice. I even had the tank go 'I'll pull smaller' and he did, which I appreciate. One time we had a newbie DPS, a newbie tank, and myself as a healer learning the new key binds, we took it slow. Who'd have think that communicating before hand helps?
This isn't regarding any sort of toxic player behavior, but rather two things that I've found helpful when trying to communicate. I dunno how many other people have this problem, but it's a little hard for me to keep up with chat because I have limited brain RAM-I'm already focused on playing the game so I might miss something in the chat. If that's you, I have two bits of advice: 1. Make a separate party chat (I usually have it be party chat messages and loot) 2. Arguably more important, give party chat a notification sound! At this point my brain has kinda been trained to hear the sound and make my eyes flick down to see what's up. Extremely helpful. Actually helped me not get a little salty at an instinctive accidental ninjapull, lol.
I did this initially to get myself to read chat more, but it became a problem when the chat noises were playing during cutscenes and ruining the immersion. Had to turn chat sounds off after that.
Always good to communicate whenever something goes wrong. Best way to make the run go by so much better. But remember Tanks, the best way to be petty against a Ninja is to move the mobs out of their Doton~
I've done this when I'm having a bad day and I get a ninja who does the single target doton. I know it's wrong to do that, but I'm hoping it shows one reason why doton is usually not a great idea for bosses.
My biggest pet peeve is people who don't wait for first-timers to watch cutscenes. Had a Thaleia run recently (as in, one where you REALLY want to watch the pre-boss cutscene) where we got to the boss room, someone put up a ready check, and I told the group "we have someone in a cutscene in our party". Someone immediately jumped on me going "duh, that's what the ready check is for" and before I could finish typing out "well sometimes people pull even if everyone doesn't ready up" the person who started the ready check had already pulled. Another Thaleia run there were a bunch of people in cutscenes and someone literally said "screw your cutscenes I wanna get to bed" and pulled like two seconds after the cutscene started. Then spent the entire boss fight arguing with people about why they're allowed to do that and threatened to report anyone who yelled at them for it. Good ol' NA servers.
As someone who started using WAR as my main in Endwalker, part of the problem I run into is I barely have time to use my human words in dungeons. I'm comfortable pulling wall to wall, but if something goes wrong mid-pull, i don't have time to type in chat box trying to make a suggestion or ask for something lol.
One thing I see often that makes me pull my hair out is sprouts that don't look or touch the chatbox, ever. I get feeling nervous about talking, but man, all I wanted back when I started a year and a bit ago was for people to tell me what I was doing wrong. It's hard to relate that memory to the tanks that spend the entire Duty with their Stance off at lv 50 and above...
I will say if they are playing on Playstation on Controller, it can take a while to type things out, probably at least one reason people can be silent, I've mostly relagated an entire cross hot bar to just macros to chat a little if things get to dicey, not that that's usually needed... Unless someone decides to leave after 1 wipe to a boss for no reason
Yea I used to be super guilty of not reading chat. It also doesn't help that the loot messages may also push messages away from sight. I def recommend putting a sound notification for party chat. However it might get annoying if someone has an ASCII macro.
The chat functionality in ffxiv is very limited. A maximum of four tabs and two windows for channel text, and in cases of using a small screen (steamdeck) the text can't go below 12 point font, which only gives you about 6 lines in a reasonably sized window. In City of Heroes I used to be able to do things like have a separate windows for guild chat and zone events so I never missed anything.
My favorite are the people who don't follow the tank in a wall to wall pull if they accidentally get aggro on the move(like a mch/dnc critting with a big skill) and staying back in the last room, fighting the mob on their own while the tank is up against the wall in the next room. It rarely happens when I'm tanking, but I see it a large amount when I'm healing.
I've seen similar, I've made a rescue macro for this specifically. with /p tank cant get aggro with you all the way over there. come join the party. this usually is a gentle enough nudge that if you bring the mob to the party the tank will naturally grab aggro with aoes.
A couple of extra notes for DPS, from someone who almost always plays DPS, since the video focuses a lot on tanks and healers (rightfully so): - If you do ACCIDENTALLY pull something, don't just stand there or run around like an idiot. Pull the extra mobs over to the tank. While the tank is there to tank, it's not their responsibility to chase your butt half way around the dungeon trying to peel mobs you aggro'd - Use your mitigation tools. Yes it's the healers job to heal/shield, but using your mits costs you nothing and helps them out. Plus, it might not seem like much if you're just running a casual dungeon but if you ever do any form of harder content you're going to NEED to be used to using your mit tools. Might as well get used to it now. - Don't just expect the healer and/or tank to do everything because "it's their job." Don't just stand in mechanics because "the healer will just top me up" or stand in bum F nowhere with your stack up marker expecting everyone else to run to you (and why were you standing in bum F nowhere to begin with? Just because your job might let you attack from anywhere in the arena doesn't mean you should). Part of playing a DPS is maintaining your DPS while doing mechanics. That's your responsibility.
When I just started learning DKR, I had my first run in Sastasha, and the SGE constantly kept running ahead and pulling mobs, and then wrote in chat that I should pull more, they can handle it - despite me constantly dropping very low on health in the mobs. I didn't die, and I didn't state upfront that I was gonna pull small packs. But I was a Sprout Tank in literally the first dungeon cause I wanted to learn, and constantly dropping to low health and running after the Healer was making me extremely nervous, and I wasn't fast enough to type a response in chat. Luckily, one of the DPS immediately responded in chat that they should "let the Sprout Tank go at their pace". After that, the SGE stopped running ahead and all went well.
That dps player is a hero honestly. Even if it is such a small gesture, I wonder if the healer would've accepted it as instantly if you had been the one to request it. A third party in the situation so to speak really helps!
This reminds me of when i was tanking also the 1st dungeon and we were just at the end. I was the tank and our puligist just ran off then after a short time came back with a godload of enemies behind him. It ovveran us all killing us all. I don’t remember if he was a sprout or not but it was defenitely a moment where i was like Ohnonono
Thank you for teaching me what YPYT means - something that had gotten thrown my way a few months ago and im only just now learning what the acronym means. Context: i was leveling my first tank job ever, PLD, and was in Qarn (Normal) with the usual mismatched gear you’d find on a new person, and i had only tanked once before (all my other XP was side quests, hunting logs, etc). All three other party members were level 90 (i could tell because i inspected their characters and they had max level gear, and two had mentor crowns). I began typing into chat “hey im new to tanking, im gonna do small pulls so i can get used to my rotation and using my mitigations at the right time” - and i didn’t even have time to press enter before the other three sprinted ahead without a word. By the time i did send the message, their names in the party list were greyed out from the distance, and no amount of me sprinting could catch up until the first boss room … where the moment I arrived, the healer immediately pulled with one of their DoTs. I had to fight all the trash mobs *and* the boss at the same time. During the run to the second miniboss, i asked them twice to slow down. No answer. I couldn’t catch up with them (it was a bard using peloton and sprint, and using repelling shot at the right angle to “jump” ahead further whenever they gained enmity, and the healer and other DPS would ride that peloton as long as possible). And i was admittedly wasting my sprint because i would *try* to grab aggro with shield lob and then sprint up, but that would halve my sprint time. The other three wiped twice trying to do this, and then when all the enmity flipped to me, I’d get destroyed in seconds. Then, in chat: “keep aggro better please” I tried again to explain that they needed to slow down and let me take the lead, no reply. By the time i respawned, they were already sprinting ahead again. I then just … turned off my tank stance. I figured “fine, if they want to rush ahead, why should i even bother?” SECONDS after turning off my tank stance, the chat lit up with “turn on stance” “shitty tank, turn on stance” and so on. I snapped back with “what’s the point if you won’t let me get aggro on more than one or two enemies at once? Slow down, or tank it yourself.” The healer (a mentor, i might add!) said “ugh another YPYT sprout, this is why the game is going to shit”. They then proceeded to votekick me. Ten minutes later, i got pulled aside by a GM because they got a report that i had been griefing. Thankfully once I explained what happened and they said “they’d review the logs” they let me go, and a day later I got a follow-up message from the GM team saying the issue was dropped and apologizing for me having such a bad experience. I never bothered looking up what YPYT means and I didn’t try tanking in solo duty queues for another month, only with friends. I guess I know now, and I also know that they were Ninjapullers!
I'm sorry you had this experience, but thank you for sharing it! I think it gives a lot of helpful insight, both in the kinds of terrible behavior that sometimes can come up, but also in what happens when people report for bad reasons. Naturally, in this particular instance all three were very severely ninja pulling, and given they kept dying as a result, had absolutely no business repeatedly doing so. 😕 Just like the GM, I don't think you did anything wrong in this situation, as you tried your best, and asked to slow down for good reason, the mentor healer should honestly had been the one reported for their behavior in my opinion 😅
I rate your "using human words an 8/10 on the sarcastic scale. Coulda been more drippy, but solid mocking of people allergic to words. Another part of Ninja Pulling: Some jobs may be trying to rush for maintaining a combo or some such. Farming 43 runs of Lunar Subterra (chest pieces, BiS), I'd Jump at the end of a pull thinking the enemy had enough HP but then it suddenly goes from 25% to 0. I need to rush immediately to the next pack, or lose out on a Mirage Dive - a key DRG resource. Not all Ninja-puling when done intentionally is even malicious. Sometimes we just trying to maintain rotation. Long as we don't run off with the mobs, should be easy to take em back.
Could just mention something at the beginning of the dungeon, something like “hey sorry if I pull before you occasionally, I just really need to maintain some parts of my combos/rotations”.
I've had a whole mixed bag of experiences but I would just say this: It might help everyone if we don't automatically assume bad intentions off the bat. What can be attributed to malice is more often ignorance or inattention. Using your words can be helpful instead of making assumptions in the heat of the moment!
I was about to lose my mind over a sprout healer only using cure 1 in level 70 content but at the end i asked if they wanted any advice and they agreed and I told them to use the rest of their kit and that holy stuns, they thanked me profusely and said they had no idea. the game fails to explain so many core concepts to people that shit like this happens all the time lol. I never used a mit during a dungeon pull until was endgame because it took that long for someone to just tell me to do it.
Was taking a friend of mine through AV a few weeks back. The tank was new, my friend was barely getting used to healer, I was on summoner for emergencies and we had a max ilvl ninja. Right at the start the tank asks if we can go slow which both myself and the healer agree to. The ninja says nothing and as we are taking mobs slow as my friend was nervous as well, the ninja pulls half the room and rushes back to us. The first room took 20 min cause of the ninja. They even blamed the healer and myself for not battle rez'ing them while we tried keeping each other alive. Insulted the tank and healer the whole time, but we eventually got through it and all 3 of us reported him. No idea why players are like this.
That is moreso a situation of griefing, as there isn’t and has never been a reason to full pull the first room in AV, and generally is never done. So he most likely just wanted to be a toxic little shit, and I’m glad you reported him.
That person was an asshole, it's AV. As a tank I will try and not pull more than a few groups when I know my DPS have limited AoE and wtw pulling sometimes ends up taking longer than doing 2-3 groups at a time. I try and go in a pace where the healer doesn't get stressed too much as well
in my second dungeon run as a dark knight (and my second run as a tank ever), i went into haukke manor and was typing out a message in chat to say like "hey am new here will do my best" or what have you, and before i could even finish typing, one of the dps in my party ran right ahead and started pulling mobs. and then continued to pull a lot of mobs to me for the rest of the dungeon. it was.... certainly a run? i felt really overwhelmed and kept getting really low on hp - not being able to tell if that was bc we were pulling too much, i wasnt using mits correctly, or if our healer just liked the thrill of letting the tank drop really low lmao. one specific thing that i remember completely aggravating me is that theres a pack of mobs near either the first or second boss that you DON'T need to pull. you can just leave em alone and walk into the boss room. and i intentionally only pulled the mobs that u need to - only for the dps to stop fighting, run to the side, and pull the unnecessary ones. i was too busy making sure i didnt die to ever actually type in chat. at no point did we wipe, but i remember just being really annoyed about the whole thing and ranting to my girlfriend about it later. but ive thought about it a bit more lately and well - the dps was definitely just trying to help. they even wished me good luck on my tanking journey at the end! they absolutely had 0 bad intentions in pulling things for me. at the same time, i sorta wish they had just... waited a few moments at the start to see how much i was gonna pull in the first place? or asked me if i wanted to try doing big pulls. as you said, communication is key! (to be fair, i didnt exactly communicate either for them to stop lmao. ig in my defense i was very overwhelmed)
So here is the logic of it all. You said in the video that it’s not the tanks choice always how much to pull. The faulty logic there is a tank is one who has to take all the damage and who can see their current cooldown layout. If they misclicked a cooldown and don’t have anything and dps force the pull and the tank get nervous and uncomfortable and so you ruin that experience for them. Communicate with words not actions. Ask them to pull bigger and accept if they aren’t comfortable
This is exactly it. It takes an incredibly presumptuous person to assume that they know better than the tank and healer what pace they can handle, and if you put those presumptions into practice by pulling ahead you entirely deserve to get YTYP'd. Claiming that setting the pace is a "group effort" is a load of horse shit.
@@samthorne3765I agree with you. I can't tell you how many times I've been forced to pull less due to cooldowns being unavailable and a dps or the healer yanking in several more groups, leaving me to panic. (That being said, I am more okay with the healer pulling as if they're willing to work more, so am I.)
healer cooldowns matter more than tank cooldowns. Therefore, healer sets the pace, period. I literally have tanked dungeons on sage doing wall to wall pulls when the tank has DCed, or in the rare cases thrown a tantrum where they're then left to watch how they aren't mandatory after all. I've done roulettes with 3 dps and me as a whm, and cleared fine just for fun. The casual content in this game is designed to be VERY easy.
@@nx6448 That is true, but it is also true that not every healer has this kind of knowledge or experience. I don't think the tank or healer are more important. They are part of a symbiotic relationship where when they work well, it's an amazing experience. I've had the healer pull many groups. As I said, if they don't mind healing more, bring it on.
@@wadebelknap7758 Yeah, but the argument was about who sets the pace. I personally think the whole "setting pace" thing is stupid, just pull and see what happens. If you wipe, then you learned something and who cares. But if someone WAS supposed to set the pace, then 100/100 times it is the healer, because a healer can carry a group, a tank can't, not even warrior if the dps is too low.
The issue I have with this is the "ninja pullers" vs "YPYT". Yes, communication is fundamental in dungeons when you have a bad actor in play. But continuous ninja pulling should not be sat upon and waited for after the instance, report during the instance. A multitude of new tanks deal with added stress of tanxiety, because if they lose agro, they are doing their job wrong (what is in their heads) this coupled by the real life anxieties just compound it. You are ACTIVELY making someone's life worst by forcing someone out of their comfort zone and putting warranted stress on someone, decreasing their enjoyment just so you can save a few extra minutes on the final count down. While reporting the person, let them pull to their hearts content if they don't want to listen to reason. There is never a time where it is okay to pull faster than the slowest player's comfort level. mistakes happen, but the intent should be the fun of the players, not forcing them to "overcome" for your need for speed.
learning a new role will take you out of your comfort zone sometimes, sorry to say. if playing a video game is causing you physical duress then you need to take that into account before you queue up, and either pick something else or (more realistically) fortify yourself and dare to be challenged! taking the time to report someone in the middle of a duty not only derails the duty for the entire rest of the party, but it might also cause you to give a hurried and poor report over what might have been a mistake to begin with. I always wait until a duty is over and at least try to ask if it was intentional. ive been wrong before about why people were doing something! also, to be honest its extremely hard to drop aggro as a tank once you have an enemy after you. iron out those fundimentals and you WILL be unstoppable!
When you started off talking about ninja pulling, I completely expected it to be the case of ninjas pulling enemies because their mudras about to run out. I am guilty of such behavior and I apologise.
Bruh, your's considered light, had a dungeon run yesterday when the NIN literally ran ahead the whole dungeon and pulled everything before bringing it to the tank. Was it fast? Maybe. Was it ninja pulling? I think that NIN was the definition XD
Trying to get the most out of your CD's is ... understandable, and while the Tank might think different, I your DPS addicted healer shallt forgive you and keep thou alive!
There is a lot of things to take into consideration too, sometimes with the following I have met DPS that do the ninjapulling but they do in a smart way, if is a RPR with their shield + arms lenght and Bloodbath they can perfectly take away a couple of hits plus put slow over the pull before you (As tank) use 1 AoE to take the pull back, as tank it only takes 1 ability to have all the pull back to you (Which nobody knows) Me as DPS usually do that trick to encourage tanks and/or help with mitigation as well As Tank I have mentallity of pulling wall to wall doesnt matter what dungeon is, Unless the healer is new/sprout I will do a slow pacing, otherwise in any Expert I will just vroom And as for healer, you can perfectly push the tank pulling the rest of the room, if the tank gets a tantrum is their problem, you as a healer can even determine if you are capable or not to manage a pull I always say to tanks "Pull everything I can handle it" In the end is a matter of Communication, but you can and people do choose how to not waste time in a dungeon, I have had Tanks leaving because I push them to pull more as healer, or healers leaving because they refuse to heal, so is a total /huh
I feel the notion that the group gets to dictate how each member plays their role based off of their understanding of optimal play is a bit of a slippery slope..
There is a difference between nagging a BLM to do perfect fire 4 blizzard thunder and foul rotation versus nagging a BLM that is spamming nothing but blizzard to do a normal rotation. One is being nit picky for the sake of optimisation, which is definitely not the BLM's fault (unless doing ex/savage/ult), and the other is genuinely BLM's fault for not even knowing the basics of their chosen class. There is also the fact that about every three queues of duty finder I end up with tanks that run into three waves without tank stance, or doesn't use provoke and healer end up dying, or doesn't use aoe, or not using low blow or interject to interrupt cast bars claiming 'they don't have it on the hotbar'. Hells, had TWO MARAUDERS show up in lv60 dungeons without their warrior crystals. Or lv90 healers that literally don't use aoe heals, instead using cure 1 to heal individually.... In Aetherochemical Research Facility😑😑 And not having esuna on the bar. Or Dancers who don't assign dance partner through the entire dungeon and ignores every message telling them to use Closed Position, as well as other ranged DPS not using peloton to speed everyone up. None of this is being 'nit picky'. This isn't about being optimal. This is about players with frustrating performances stubbornly refusing to learn the basics and everyone needing to suffer through it.
Also on esuna: Had one time queuing as tank, got thrown into lv90 dungeon "The Dead Ends", both healer and bard getting hit by the 1st boss doom attacks AND NEITHER WERE CLEANSING IT, so both died and I had to solo the thing after the other dps decided to run away when the stack marker was on their head instead of coming closer (I was PLD and could both heal and use cover). At that point there is really no excuse for players with lv90 characters in a lv90 dungeon with lv90 in multiple classes getting hit by doom and not cleansing, as well as running away with a stack marker on their head. 😫😫😫😫 Edit: three minutes ago, had a lv81 BLM using thunder 1 at a lv60 dungeon. note that lv45 job quest upgrades thunder 1 into thunder 3!!! UGH!!!!!!
As a scholar with a lot of time on my hands both to figure out funky game mechanics and also humour strange behaviours, whenever I get the tanks that only pull one mob, I try to make them take 0 damage for the entire dungeon run, to see if they might feel comfortable pulling more knowing that they're taking... literally 0 damage otherwise.
I can't say I trust them to make any reasonable decision if they only single pull. The only solution that I've seen to be consistent was a ninjapull (much more valid in lower level dungeons where healers don't have aoe attacks) of the next mob back to the tank... because they can absolutely afford to be left unattended for a few seconds, they don't take enough damage from single pulling.
In my defense as a SGE main, pulling mobs for extra toxicons feels super rewarding. My shields break faster than a tank's since I take more damage, and they're quick to cast, so I can easily keep myself alive for 5 seconds once we're done pulling while the tank gets aggro (assuming they didn't already while pulling).
gotta just cross your fingers and hope that being the healer is enough to not make the tank go red in the face and have a tempter tantrum and throw the duty on purpose over misbegotten ideals
As a SGE main myself i feel you, SGE's kit naturaly make's him somewhat of a tanky class, even if only for 5 or so seconds every few packs and when the group doesn't mind i'll pull ahead of the tank (when possible) myself reducing some of the mob pressure and moving faster
Healer Main (AST): I dont ninja-pull, but i often run ahead, to hint to the tank that i can handle more dmg. Some bite some don't... ( i dont force it, as i dont aggro mobs ahead)
When I tank a dungeon I usually try to be forgiving of ninja pullers, and keep ahead of the DPS so that I can get aggro before they get there. BUT, if we're waiting on someone to finish their cutscene and you pull the boss, I'm gonna keep my butt planted on the ground and let you 1v1 the boss
Also, if you're playing a healer or caster, and you notice that some of the mobs are aggroed to a non-tank (and that person isn't going to the tank to let the tank pick up aggro), don't forget you have a class ability that lets you put a target to sleep for 30 seconds!
Another (potentially better) option is to provoke the boss and pull them out of the arena, it'll reset the boss if the boss gets sealed out of the boss arena.
I just returned to the game earlier this month and decided to try tanking while running through NG+ and omg the ninjapulling can be terrible sometimes. Even when telling the party that I am new to tanking I would get some DPS running ahead and grabbing more enemies without saying anything. You'd think the first step would be a simple couple of words asking to pull more but nope. I've only had a single person ask me to pull more instead of just taking it upon themselves to pull everything. Despite that I still try to do my best and not let them die.
I'm gonna be blunt man. Tanking is easy. All you need to do to survive most level 60+ pulls is to use one mitigation at a time in sequence. If you die? It is literally not your fault because you are doing exactly as the game intended. It is the Healers fault. So seriously. Double pull. You will only die if your healer sucks and damn them if they blame you. It ain't you.
@@TheGreatDanish yup, that's usually what leads to slower or smaller pulls is death. But I've hit 90 with warrior and am able to handle things myself most of the time now. Tanking is a lot easier than I had previously thought it would be.
My worst queue was as a WHM healing a DK a few years ago when they were lacking in their low level kit...the DK kept overpulling and I was only able to heal and I was running out of mana. When I ran out of mana from the excessive healing and cleansing, we wiped. I asked to pull less, tank refused and said I should just heal better...then that it was not my place to say anything about his pulls because he was tank. I did snap back that I was more important because I was healing and couldn't keep up which imo is valid in that moment, it's not like I demanded something, I asked and explained I was not able to keep up. The run ended about 8-9 wipes in with me healing no one, leaving them dead, and taking the packs on myself one by one. Imo I was forced to behave that way and did the right thing and I am thankful every day I've never been pushed to that point again because of an unreasonable tank.
Yikes. Yeah I can understand that situation! Personally if it got that bad, I think I would just had left. I am impressed by your tenacity (not the stat!) Depending on what dungeon it was, and how big the pulls were, a dark knight today at least, should be perfectly capable of doing the same giga pulls that any other tank can, at least below level 42, as that specific level warrior has invuln as an advantage. The requirement is that the dark knight uses their cooldowns smartly. And then of course, a giga pull is always also dependent on the healer. Especially in those levels! So I imagine that dark knight wasn't very good or very reasonable given that it sounds like they kept doing the same pulls that didn't work 😅
Did the DPS actually side with the Tank, or where you just too pissed to continue with your 2 side guns ? Kudos for showing your overconfident meat shield their place, ((Aka Tanks who talk big but cant back it up, and lack politeness to warent forgiveness) but I would still keep the DPS alive unless they chose poorly.
when my friend got into the game he started as tank i play AST and every dungeon was me telling him "keep pulling dont stop until u drop" and it worked (im not being mean were both asshole optimizers who cant enjoy a game casually)
Loops back on game theory. When you shirk you incentivize everyone else to shirk as well because if they don't they're just being a sucker. Still, within a roulette scenario tanks have the most responsibility in the group. Pulling and pacing are a part of the tank's job, while being considerate of healer resources, are their job because both are components of protecting the party. Since it's their responsibility it is their choice, everyone else's choice is whether the terms work for the run they want, or to leave the dungeon and wait for a different tank. Raids, trials and prog content is different.
I occasionally get tanks in expert roulettes that refuse to use any mitigations - "it's the healers job to keep me alive" - , but still pull wall-to-wall. Since they also tend to have worse gear, of course they end up dying before the healer even has the chance to react (seen them drop from 100-0 in less than 2 seconds). So yeah, friendly reminder to use mits, or if you can't be bothered or don't know about it, ask or only pull as much as you can manage.
Just a few days ago It was my first time tanking in low level dungeon and our healer inmediatly went all like "I WANT YOU TO PULL ALL OF THEM, PULL LIKE A BITCH, KEEP PULLING, YOU ATACK AND KEEP GOING" and honestly I don't know if it was half joke or not but It felt terrible and I had a lot of pressure, they just stopped when a friend told them I was a beginner, but then they started pushing again and repeating "I'll keep you alive" but end up picking all the mobs for me pushing a lot and getting ahead. Clearly our commendation was not for them, tank anxiety is a thing and that didn't helped much hahah.
I do that to all new tanks, but with a bit less pressure. A little zap rather than a cattle prod. Try pulling more than one pack... good good, now do MORE... MOOOOOOORE!!! BE NOT AFRAID YOUNG ONE YOU WILL LEARN TODAY!!! *foams at the mouth*
There is 0 reason to feel tank anxiety when that happens. If a healer tells you to pull everything and you die. It's not your fault you're just following orders.
i’ve gotten complements for using mitigation on pulls i think need it and that just shows how bad a position tanking is in where multiple healers expect tanks to not mitigate
Reminds me of doing The Heroes Gauntlet back when it was current content, and the AST gave me a lot of praise for adjusting to be in their Earthly Star during a pull. Which baffled me at the time since it's both their strong AOE heal and AOE damage.
I was in Haukke Manor at one point and interrupted one of the Handmaidens and got a surprised 'Oh, you're a GOOD tank..." from a DPS. Like... if I CAN interrupt a move that's going to put a stun on me, I'm going to do it. Granted, for a very long time I thought my only option was to run out of the marker zone and then back in, but still...
Reminds me of one of my runs when I was levelling DRK. I hadn't read TBN, and was running Heroes Gauntlet with a WHM who was struggling to keep up with heals. After I saved myself from dying with a Living Dead he asked me "Any reason you're not using TBN?". Had to google what TBN was on my other monitor really quickly, answered "because I'm dumb and hadn't read what it does". Starting on the next pull I used it basically on cooldown, the healer had a way easier time healing me, and I became a better tank, and we had a couple back-and-forth jokes in chat. Even though I was unambiguously doing something wrong there the fact the WHM wasn't immediately hostile lead to a better outcome for both of us. If he'd immediately called me a crap tank (even though that honestly was a correct assessment of how I was playing), I would've not known what they were talking about and probably gotten defensive enough I wouldn't have listened to any advice they gave me.
As a healer main who dabbles in tank from time to time, the thing that irks me the most is people don't take the time to learn what their actions actually do and then refuse to take any sort of advice. This is specifically in regards to tanks not knowing what how their different mitigations and invulns work and healers who for whatever reason refuse to use oGCDs. If I had a nickle for every DRK who used Living Dead at 95% hp, I'd probably be the richest man in the world.
This might be bad but the only times I don't heal or revive someone is when they die so much they aren't even worth spending swiftcast on. However if it is a sprout I will do everything in my power to keep them alive and revive them no matter how many times it takes.
I am growing tanks and recently I had a party where the healer and one of the DPS were behaving weirdly. The healer would just heal but incompletely and would rescue me randomly with no reason or explanation, despite me asking every time why they did that. I pulled less, naturally, because I didn't trust the healer and their bizarre behavior, but the DPS would go ahead and pull more. I did get the mobs off of them and as I reached the stopping point the healer stopped healing completely and let me die. Now, I absolutely agree that communication is very important. But what can you do when people straight up ignore you when you're trying to communicate?
I think your only option when players refuse to communicate and do something you don't want like that, is to report it. The alternative is of course to try and play around it to the best of your ability 😕
I want to bring up that people should also be aware of themselves, asthey might become more of a problem in certain circumstances I know for me, I tend to be more reckless and wanting to get through things faster when I'm exhausted. There was a point where, during Satasha in the process of leveling DRG, I just started pulling things and bringing them to the tank. We did wipe, and I was (justly) called out for it, but I didn’t really take it to heart until several days later, when I realized that I was lacking sleep and have been leveling LNC/DRG for several hours by that point, and was just so dang tired of the queue times. Ever since, I've been more mindful of my wakefulness and how I'm acting as a DPS.
Very true! Being considerate to your team and how they feel is actually a huge part of it all. Some have already mentioned that ninja pulling isn't always a bad thing. After all, you were helping! You pulled mobs to the tank. But without communicating, it might be against the groups wishes. This can be harder to know in a low level dungeon with more open corridors of course! I think it sounds like you walked away from that situation having learned something special though, so I think that's a win!
With a couple of my other friends we had the worst possible luck with Healers and Tanks in some instances, it can be iffy but when you get a combo of them in a duty it can be painful. I had the chrysalis in trials roulette where one of the tanks announced "I'm a bad Tank XD" who then proceeded to not cooperate with my Tank friend the entire instance using no cooldowns with his stance constantly on. It felt like he was doing it intentionally because he turned it off after my friend did a couple times. Fortunately both Healers dealt with this by only healing him, not walking into any of the orbs & not doing any DPS to then blame the DPS for killing themselves to the mechanics
It's more of a problem in the first few alliance raids due to encounter design, but tanks who decide that *they* have to be the main tank for the alliance and provoke on cooldown cause a lot of problems if there's more than one of them. Bosses spinning to face a new person or worse, running across the room, makes the experience not fun for basically anyone else
This is a very nuanced topic. In my book, the only irredeemable bad actors are YPYT tanks and god complex healers, since they invariably make the experience worse for everyone in the party. Bonus points if it's a premade party doing both of those things to assert their dominance over puny DPS players. On the topic of ninja pulling, it heavily depends on how it's done. If it's less "ninja" and more just "puller" (as in, they're not trying to hide the fact they want to go fast and they're just making the run more efficient), then I'm fine with it. If it's a melee or ranged physical pulling with Arm's Length, that's free mitigation and I'll comm them after the run. If it's a Sage, that's also good for the group, since they pull with shields on themselves to gain another charge of Toxikon, which is a big DPS gain in trash pulls (and they're the healer, so they can take care of themselves if necessary). As long as they bring it to the tank, it's all good! If I'm the tank, I'll typically throw Nascent Flash or Heart of Corundum their way and they'll be fine while I grab aggro on everything. Teamwork makes the dream work! I only get mad at ninja pullers if they pull and then run away with the mob to try and solo it or god forbid actually keep running away with the mob until they die. Don't be shy, bring it to the blender!
I think I would get along with you. I can think of a couple of dungeons here and there where it's more efficient to have other people pull the mobs to the tank because the enemies all spawn really spread out, like Cutter's Cry when the second wave of ants spawn in the first two rooms. Or boss fights where adds spawn far away from the boss. DPS who know what they are doing can help with round ups and the Smiths training content actually teaches you to intercept such small packs during boss fights, especially if they are making for your healer. Grab it, and run it to the tank so tank doesn't have to leave positionals.
I have also seen a healer using rescue to drag a tank along faster and then complaining when we wiped, until the tank got fed up and left. Please, just be nice to each other and don't force someone to play your way if they don't feel like they can keep up. It was a level 50 dungeon and tank was a sprout iirc.
I had that experience aswell. Was tanking and got dragged all over the place before I could even pull aggro from severall mobs that the HEAL attracted first even in front of any dps and me. That was really annoying.
"running around and dancing isn't in the healer role" We all know heals are stronger when jumping around between cast times... and snacking to refill aether... healing takes a lot of energy!
I hard disagree on it being a group choice of being a group choice on the pace. To put it simply, if the tank dies then its most likely the healer dies, when the healer dies the DPS die. If the tank is new and is unsure of themselves I much rather have them pull light then to put them through extra stress. It is not my place as a DPS to force them out of their comfort zone. If they want to pull w2w and the healer can support them, good! The next person who gets a choice is the healer, once again if the healer is unsure then as a tank you should pull less. If they are wanting to pull w2w and the tank can do it, awesome. The healer should NOT rescue a tank into the next group if said tank is uncertain (See pervious point.) (5:13) Yes it is a problem, because again the tank dies, the rest of the party dies. It does not matter if the DPS and the Healer think they can compensate, if the tank dies they will get blamed.
Oh I should probably clarify then. I'm not saying the speedrunner dps turbo man gets to choose either. The point about it being a group decision is more that, just because the tank doesn't want to pull big, shouldn't mean that everyone else's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. That is ultimately what I meant, although I suppose I went a bit too fast there 😅 To give an example... If the tank says they would prefer pulling one pack at a time, but the healer then suggests pulling big anyway because they know they can take care of the difference in skill between them. Then the healer has already stated they can do it, and the tank literally said the opposite, so if the tank gets blamed then, then the group is absurd of course 😅 Similarly, if the dps players are impressive enough, you can sometimes get by with a tank that isn't entirely sure on the defensives, and a healer just spamming cure, because the dps can clear the pack before that becomes a problem. But the point is that people tend to not discuss these things in the first place. The point was more that the tank doesn't get defacto exclusive rights to decide, and at least the rest of the group should also have some part in the decision. The tank and healer should also probably weigh more in the discussion 😊
I once had a run of lapis Manalis where I sprinted and the tank didn't so I dotted up enemies first, it's not an issue because I know how to tank so I just stack with the tank and he gets aggro no issue. Then he proceeds to not proceed to the next packs. Instead crying in chat. Me and my friend ended up duo-ing from 2nd to 3rd boss on reaper and scholar still wall to wall pulling without a tank. Then we duod the boss. Obviously we couldn't kick cus they were intentionally not rolling on loot, such a terrible stante
I remember once getting in cutter's cry as a healer and found out part way through the lancer had level 1 glamor pieces on their chest and legs.... There wasn't any saving them by the end, they were dying to unavoidable damage.
I've been playing as a tank recently with PLD and I'm loving it. My experiences are people being more than nice, specially when I tell them it's my first time tanking in the dungeon. Particularly, with Brayflox's Longstop I had a ninja (fittingly enough) ninja pulling to show me the way when they realized I did not know the way. He'd type in the chat "Over here boss". Can't get angry at that 😄
Most dungeons are around 15 Minutes, so I never understood why people create so much drama in those short timespans. I'll always adjust to every weird thing happening during dungeons/trials and usually don't care about it and simply focus on completing the duty - no need for Drama and the dury will be over more quickly. Well i'm in a kind of priviliged situation since I'm also a tank main, but for example, if someone pulls ahead of me, I simply stick as close as possible to that person for the rest of the dungeon or move ahead just seconds before the last enemy dies, so I'll be in front of that person. I would never imagine letting someone die or "teach them a lesson" because of things like that but I do know a lot of people with such a mindset and it always baffles me. Other example: If a healer is struggling with healing during my big pulls, I just start using Clemency or something similar, doesn't matter to me if it's a dps loss in that situation, I want to help out my healer while also being able to continue with the big pulls, since they're so common anyways it's better imo to simply help out the healer instead of pulling less so they can get comfortable with the situation. But in case something like clemency isn't available and most mitigation is on cooldown, then of course I will only pull as much as the group can handle, so I won't force big pulls and potential deaths just out of stubborness or again "teaching the healer a lesson" if I know there is a possibility to wipe, it's just bad behaviour. For me it's all about adjusting instead of following a strict formular in this kind of content. Sometimes you just get really weird people but know what? Try out to simply roll with it and adjust instead of argueing about their behaviour, usually those runs turn out to be a lot of fun and can be weirdly satisfying at least that's my experience and that's also the advice I can give for those situations :D
Same here WAR main the ypyt is just wasting a groups time cool now you taught that guy a lesson now its going to take longer to complete the dungeon wasting everyone's time just adjust or communicate its not rocket science
Right. To me, part of being a tank *especially* is one of literally rolling with the punches. You have the mitigation, so roll with it. Not being petty is definitely to your benefit in the end.
The tanks job is to manage and maintain aggro, not to pull especially in dungeons. Ninjapulling is only ever an issue when they are obviously overpulling in rare instances like Mt. Gulg where you can really pull a lot more than usual (though even that can be w2w easily if you know what you are doing). I say this as someone who mainly plays tank in duty roulette, ninjapulling is not problem behavior at all. It is also usually easier instead of harder for the tank to grab all the aggro back because they get piled up, again it being much rarer that they pile up awkwardly.
It sort of depends on the situation. Ninja pulling can be entirely beneficial if the ninja puller is helping the tank. But sometimes that is not the case. In fact to your mt. Gulg example, having the dps tank a bit while you do the mega pull itself can be helpful! It is all about intent, and how you do it, whether it is detrimental, or beneficial I think! 😊
This is the way. Someone going ahead to pull is one of the most beneficial things in an expert dungeon run, and you will certainly get a comm from me, as tank. In the end, there are no nuances. Just hurt egos. Keep moving and pushing buttons, and everything will be fine. Unfortunately, folk are keenly aware of the snowflakes in the game that will gladly let them die. It's a sad set of affairs.
fellow tank here, completely agree. it is not that serious. with tank stance you will get aggro back with one, MAYBE two AoEs, and even then, a dps taking some chip damage while you're grabbing aggro is not the end of the world. ESPECIALLY when you're synced up enough to use nascent flash/cover/tbn/oblation/HoC/aurora/etc on them.
You know gets me, people that stop fighting mobs/boss to stand at the exit of the room until they're able to move to the next spot. It's annoying in dungeons and especially alliance raids where you see a group of people standing there and doing nothing while there is still fighting going on because of the "Me first" mentality.
Oh that one is especially funny when everyone does it. I recall a Case in syrcus tower where nearly everyone forgot about the adds that spawn behind you at some point. So like 21 players just stood dumbfounded looking at the door that refused to open! 😂 Sometimes I get it in dungeons if you know you can ranged attack the remaining single mob or something without wasting time. But that is quite specific!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh 🤣That's so true. I agree 100%! Syrcus tower always gets people. It's actually great when some of them realize and start scampering back to the fight. 😂
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I know exactly which spot you're talking about. There's a pile of Doga and Unei clones spawning behind and everyone but 3 people are staring at the barrier like a bunch of nerds, LOL
I had so much anxiety about being a tank at first because of people who would constantly pull for me, even after I stated I would like to go slow since I was learning. I still don't care to tank as much, but i've gotten a little more comfortable doing it.
unfortunately many people have the idea that the only way to get use to tanking w2w pulls is essentially immersion therapy. force them into it and show them itll be okay. the problem is the new tank learns nothing of use from that as they likely didnt cd cycle correctly, or started kitchen sinking their mits in fear.
If I'm playing tank and I see others pulling ahead of me I am thankful. Your health bars are free mitigation, you also get extra love from me plus a free dinner at a class restaurant if you are a melee/ranged DPS and you pop Arms Length and bring back the mobs pre-slowed. (Of course I only advocate for non-tank pulling if it is already established we are going wall to wall - in that case if you do pull in front of the tank they were going to grab those mobs in a second anyway). But please make sure you run back to the tank... I ain't chasing you all over the dungeon to save your rear (I mean, I will... I just won't like it :P)
My opinion about dungeon pace is that the group moves as fast as the tank or healer is comfortable pulling, whichever is slower. Wall-to-walls can be stressful for new or returning tanks/healers, so taking it slower until they build up their confidence is beneficial for everyone.
Don't forget there are a couple dungeons that are so perfectly placed levelwise that it's extremely difficult for the healer to support WtW pulling (even if the healer is skilled) due to a few different reasons, 1 being them being a barrier healer, I myself am a Sage Main and 1 dungeon I have extreme difficulty healing in is Dohn Mheg, when the tank WtW pulls even when I am heal spamming it is not enough because my Heal output is not as good as a WHM, and when I throw up the barriers the tanks hp drops farther than if I was just heal spamming
My worst dungeon experience to date almost made me fall into the YPYT mindset for a while. (I did always provoke after letting the puller take a few hits lol.) Happened when I was still pretty new to tanking. The party had a BRD that immediately ran ahead and pulled the first mob. I took the aggro from them. Wasn't a big deal over all... until the healer decided to only heal the BRD, and not me. So I died to the first mob, and while I respawned the BRD and healer ran ahead to the next mob and pulled that as well. (Other DPS was my friend, who waited for me.) Tried talking to those two, but the BRD just told me I don't pay their sub and the healer, iirc, did not say anything at all. So me and my friend just left after a couple minutes of that mess. Didn't want to deal with it. So anyway, I stopped tanking for a little bit after that, but got back into it and (fortunately) never encountered players like that again. Started to trust healers again and don't get anxious about Ninjapulls anymore (annoying as they can be sometimes) lol. All's well that ends well, but thinking about that time still makes me mad.
Damn, that sucks. My worst one was me and my sister playing DPS characters, doing Brayflox Longstop story mode with a level 31 Gladiator, who refused to go Paladin, and we kept dying to the mobs and the first boss because he didn't have a lot of what he needed (IIRC, this was also before they got tank stance at 10, and instead got it with the job) Eventually my sister and I had enough arguing with the guy and dying to stuff we shouldn't be dying to, so we left.
A DPS pulling slightly ahead is mostly fine to me. Certain fights I don't like to W2W because it's faster to not do that in certain dungeons. Otherwise? If you pull it, just bring it to me, your health bar is just more mitigation for me.
Maybe it's just me but as a healer I don't enjoy wall to walls for every dungeon. It's mostly fine but other times it can be quite stressful ^^ like there's some dungeons where half a wall pull does a hefty amount of damage and a full pull means I'm basically a heal bot unable to dps because the mobs are bringing the tank below half each time they hit. (I think that's slower) At least when I'm tank I remember those dungeons with tricky pulls and will ease into it first before picking up the pace. I don't mind going faster if people can handle it though.
if the pull is big enough you are forced to only heal, and you manage fine without a wipe or any deaths, then its the perfect amount of enemies! your party is still dealing massively more damage because of the higher enemy count!
@@tabs5941 That's less dps over all so wouldn't that in theory take longer than just simply doing half pulls? Granted I'm talking about like 5% of dungeons that actually have hard hitting mobs. Sometimes a full wall to wall can result in wipes specially if the tank doesn't mitigate properly.
Something else that comes to mind is when the tank died, I got aggro, died, and the healer saw fit to not rez me even after getting the situation under control. That was annoying. I fought as much as the tank pulled and did my rotation, ended up as second target and died for that. All I can say is that it took me a while to find my sprint button to return to the group. Something else that's really just bad behavior is not using your mitigations or self healing as a tank and forcing it all onto the healer, then complaining that the healer is trash when they struggle keeping the group alive or at least need to heal way more and the dungeon takes much longer. Another potential problem of YPYT is that the new tank might run to Narnia if the DPS doesn't trust the healer or the healer doesn't trust the rest of the group, possibly making everyone wipe in the process or delaying the dungeon a lot. Couldn't blame them.
Oh yeah, the tank that refuses to use defensives to "make the healer do their job"? Oh they're fun, I count those as tank god complex too 😂 That particular story you mentioned: there is a possibility the healer didn't seem to have time to raise, or deemed it was better for you to run back. But as you say, there's also the possibility they just didn't want to raise you because you had the audacity to get aggro (when the tank was dead 😂) It's always fun how when people start to intentionally make mistakes, it can be difficult to play the game at all! 😕
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh, yeah, that could be considered tank god complex, true. This made me stop play healer for a while, which is a shame. I like all 3 roles, but after encountering too many of these tanks, I changed to greedy DPS with absolutely no group healing/rezzing for a while. It was just no longer my problem. Oh, they had time, the situation was under control, they chose not to, for whatever reason. I find it troublesome if the tank and/or intentionally fail. Makes it much harder for everyone. If a DPS does it, they might die, but the group will be fine and the healer can rez them when the situation allows it.
"and the healer saw fit to not rez me even after getting the situation under control." i sometimes play as a healer and stuff like that sometimes happen i can tell you "don't take it to peronaly". You use your swiftcast to rez tank and that's it. Rez have a few sec casttime and you may just don't having time to do this.
A healer can only swift cast rez every 60 seconds, and rez has an 8 second cast time without swiftcast. 8 seconds is a loooong time if the tank is getting pounded on or there's aoe to dodge. They likely used swiftcast to get the tank up, and may not have felt it was safe or efficient to stand around effectively doing nothing for 8 seconds to get you back up. It is often not a risk worth taking. If we're still fighting when swiftcast comes back up, I'll throw you a rez. Otherwise, you can leg it back, especially if we're close to a shortcut. Saves you the rez debuff, too.
The amount of people (tank players especially) outing themselves in this comment section as the exact thing you're describing (and still thinking they're in the right???) is crazy. Tanks shirking healers who "aren't healing enough" and DPS who pull ahead and even bring the mobs to you?? YPYT is always unacceptable, end of discussion. Just hit the bad guys and use your mitigation, it isn't that hard or that serious, people. Some serious "I'm the main character and you all have to cater to how i want to play" energy going on. Re-evaluate how you play a multiplayer game please. Sometimes you'll have to go a little out of your comfort zone and that is okay! It is how you learn and get better at the game. Be better players and better people.
That is actually a pretty interesting point! I feel some of them at least give a specific example where it is closer to "okay", but I honestly stick to my guns on the subject of "don't be the punisher. Play right, and then you can always report is someone is being a dummy" 😊 ypyt just isn't helping anyone!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh The whole idea of "punishing" them for pulling .5 seconds before you or pulling more mobs than you were intending just doesn't make sense. You aren't just punishing them, you're punishing the entire group, the healer and yourself especially. Now the pull will take longer and you all have to use more tools to make it through. It's really just a baffling mindset to me. Plus it's just a rude thing to do 😅 don't be rude people
@@one_eyeddd473 Oh I love tanking, love tank players who play well as part of the group and even love helping new tanks to learn. It's only the tanks who think the world revolves around them because they have more health and a few damage mitigations that I can't stand. It's just a weird mindset to me. It's a team game where we all have our roles to play, and those roles are pretty simple: we all do damage, the DPS do more and the tank and healer keep everyone alive in their own way. That's it, beat the bad guys together and try to get along while you do it.
@@zackdunbar4962 as tanking main, I prefer to see myself less of a "leader" and more "I am here to make enemies look at me, they better look at me >:C" while everyone else carve their arses.
I think the most annoying thing to me is DPS that appears to be *trying* to mess up every pull by hitting whichever enemy the tank did not hit with their preferred pull method. It's just...exhausting to deal with as a tank, and irritating to witness as a healer. (I don't notice when I play dps cause I'm focused on making sure I'm punching whichever thing the tank has already hit). These are thankfully extremely rare, they just stick in my head really well because the kind chaos and exhaustion it causes isn't even fun to work around/through, like certain other kinds of challenges. One thing I love to see in tanks at low level is the ones that try to play at the level of their party. Like if they can see that half the party are the greenest a sprout can possibly be, they play a little bit chiller, but still keep up a good speed. Gently teaching the sprouts about dungeon pacing without singing "Welcome to the Jungle" while throwing them off a cliffside.
Ive only recently started my FF14 Journey and am going it as a Marauder. Watching these videos of yours is helping me avoid bad behavior while also letting me know what to expect when i encounter different jobs/roles in my journey.
That is a good way to view it! Remember that it is also okay to not pull lots of mobs if you are not feeling confident! The important part is friendly communication! 😄
Oh, I have a very strong tendency towards Glare Magery and being a Blood Lily kinda White Mage, but in order to even GET the Blood Lily, I need to at least throw out some aoe heals now and again. My problem is that I sometimes get "DPS Blinders" and forget to check the party's condition. At least I learned how to use Bene so that's saved some runs. It's never intentional, it's always accidental, and I always feel awful about it.
@@maracaegrizzley8734 whenever i play astro i sometimes get so distracted by the cards and gravity spam that i forget to check the tank's hp and have to scramble to throw essential dignity and spam benefic II to save the pull. it's just so fun pressing the same one button and seeing pretty animation!
I had a Stone Vigil run where it was first time really tanking with DRK. I wasn't used to the rotation, DRK has limited tools, and my Healer was rusty, so I didn't w2w. Well the BLM didn't like that, and said "You know you can pull more than 3 packs at once". -Very passive aggressive phrasing, instead you should ask why the tank isn't doing W2W. So my friend(the healer) kindly explained that I wasn't very familiar with DRK and wasn't comfortable doing the pretty rough W2W in Stone Vigil. Well the BLM didn't like that, and said something to the effect of "I don't want to be in here for an hour, pull more." -You want more pulls, queue as Tank. Don't be passive aggressive because the run isn't going fast enough, then rude when it's explained to you why. So I said "No, I will die and then it will take even longer." Well the BLM didn't like that, so after the first boss when I stopped at about 50% pulls, he ran ahead and pulled more and brought them back. -Predictably, I died near the end of the pull, and the Healer clutched. BLM didn't say anything. So after the second boss, he did it again. -This time, I purposely aggroed everything except the Ice Sprites that were on him and let him die. My friend thanked him for taking a bit of the aggro off of me. We then completed the dungeon and I got the comm from the other DPS, who was very nice and understanding when it was explained why I wasn't doing W2W. My whole point with telling this story is that dungeons are casual content, and there could be a dozen different reasons for someone to want to take it a bit slower. If you take casual group content so seriously, you're only going to upset yourself.
On ninjapulling i’m only a sprout but i had an early on issue where our puligist just decided to pull all enemies in the first dungeons last room. I stood there as we were fighting a smaller group and bro just ran back with a bucketload of enemies. That was a moment where i literally was like oh no why why why. I only remember one time i acidentally ninja pulled. I was playing healer and the next monster group was closer thsn i expected so i was slightly further behind the tank and ended up pulling the next group by accident.
As a still new (end of ARR) player and currently hard Healer main, I've had enough situations where I either barely managed to keep the Tank alive through a W2W, or (on blessedly rare occasions, mostly first times) *didn't* manage to keep them alive and we wiped, that on the occasions I try to tank I tend to wind up too nervous to do more than 1-3 pack pulls ^.^; Haven't had anyone get angry about it yet, fortunately, but seeing other tanks in action it also makes me nervous that someone will.
My general advice is that two packs at a time is just fine. Sure there are dungeons where it is possible to do more, but that's just to say that you should be perfectly fine pulling 1-3 packs at a time 😊 the even bigger ones might come with more practice!
As someone with a 90 on each class my thoughts: When I'm the tank: Lucy Pyre's guide to tanking might be a shitpost, but also contains literally 90% what you need to know. Be faster. Get that sweet 20 second sprint buff and leave dps in the dust, rotate your defensive cooldowns and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD USE YOUR AOE ROTATION. And don't forget arm's length. Be the ultimate ungabunga and solo the dungeon if you have to. As a warrior, I know I can (if I'm level 56 or higher). As a war main, I'm the healer now. I guess have both the healer and tank god complex at the same time so boo me >.>. The only acceptable pace is full frickin throttle. As a healer: If the tank ain't pulling, I am I guess but I'm also dying inside as end up queued with the dark knights who refuse to use shadow wall the entire run and only use rampart on boss fights. And not for tankbusters. I feel at times I can genuinely heal myself or a melee dps using bloodbath better if the tank can't perform. With sage as my favorite healer I can even eat tankbusters if I have to. I might also decide you're cheaper to rez at 3 vuln stacks than babyshit you as you try to collect 5-6. >.> As DPS: This is a vacation, spam aoe go brrr don't stand in the orange collect free loot.
The tragedy of both the god complex healer and ypyt is that if you pull that move in a level 90 dungeon you are liable to have the rest of the group call your bluff and do the dungeon without you Yes, at level 90 an attentive party with a warrior (potentially other tanks too) can clear dungeons without a healer Scholar (and again, likely other healers) can SOLO specific dungeons, though it is excruciatingly slow Please be especially careful when ascribing blame in dungeons. If you die in a dungeon as a warrior at level 90 it is your fault, 100%, every time. The same is almost universally true for healers. If you die of boredom however then it might be time to point fingers at the tank not w2w'ing or the white mage spamming cure 1 (or the red mage not using melee abilities, etc)
sadly this is why I only queue into a dungeon with randoms if me or a friend is playing a tank (not drk lol) so you can do the duty normally and not get interrupted by some healer trying to throw for no fucking reason.
Deciding dungeon pace is exactly the tank's job... If you come from WoW. In reality, the dungeon pace is set by the healer. A good healer makes me more confident in doing crazier pulls, because when i run out of defensives, i know they got me. But if you're a dps and you're pepega plunging ahead of me into every pack and boss, i will let you die before i take agro. Rezing only takes 3 seconds.
@@tabs5941 in broad strokes it's everyone... but i specifically point to the healer, coz if i pull wall to wall, pop all me CDs and immediately explode, that's the healer. if i pull 2 packs and am struggling, that's the healer. i can only pull at pace the healer dictates, thus, the healer sets the pace
As a SCH main I don’t care what classes I play, I will always let the healer set the pace. I ask what they’re comfortable with and then do that. I try to teach where I can if they’re new since I am a healer main and if I know there’s tricky mechanics I’ll double check everyone knows. Like Aurum Vale. Fuck that place but I still practiced the shit out of it so I could help sprouts when I have to do it. It also helps my current partner mainly tanks for me if I wanna heal these days so he knows my healing style.
I was doing a random Vault run as a healer, with a tank friend. I was pretty new, so I died to one of the mechanics. This was back in like HW. No problem, there's a summoner, they can rez. Except they don't. So we wipe, and I remind them politely that they have a raise, and they could have saved the boss attempt. In response, the DPS both vote to kick me. Of course, my friend's really upset at them, so they leave. So the two toxic DPS are stuck at the first boss of the dungeon, with no tank or healer. They might as well quit and suffer through the DPS queue again. If I had wanted to, I could have added insult to injury and also reported them, but I just let them enjoy the instant karma.
You know, I don't even play a tank, I'm a DPS main and heal secondary, and it's always been that way for me, but I still think YPYT is kind of right, sorry. At the end of the day, I get it's all about mutual respect, and no one is God of the Dungeon over anyone else, but in my mind, the tank is the boss and that's okay with me. I want them to be comfortable. They're the ones who have to hold the enemies and try not to die. It makes sense that they should lead the charge and set the pace. If anything, I'd like the healer and tank to talk it out, but as someone who is almost always dps, I'm just there to be the muscle and follow their lead. If I wanted to be a tank, I could. I firmly feel that DPS running ahead and repeatedly intentionally pulling shit the tank didnt pull is several orders of magnitude more disrespectful than the tank essentially saying, "okay, if that's what you want to do, you take it." It's just, look, I've been playing this game for 10 years now, and in the beginning, when the community was small, everyone was SUPER nice. You never, EVER saw a DPS intentionally run ahead of a tank to pull shit the tank didn't. EVER. People understood their roles and followed them. I didn't start seeing DPS completely disregarding the roles and doing whatever they wanted until the WoW exodus happened around just before Endwalker. Suddenly, there were DPS who would literally just take off at a full sprint the micro-second the circle gate dropped, and leave every other person on the team in the dust while they frantically attack everything in sight. It's stupid. It gets people killed. I've seen that shit wipe parties WAY more than any of the other issues on this list. I dont think its okay for tanks to grief DPS that are like this by letting them die, but if you're not the tank, dont pull. If you wanna go faster, just talk about it!
There's only one default speed and that is max speed. Unless a severe skill issue prohibits that (which, hey. It's fine, we all gotta start somewhere), expecting a tank to go slow by default is like giving Usain Bolt a cane or taking away a soldier's caffeine. It goes entirely against their raison d'être. If I am tanking, and I miss a pack, I WANT people to ninja pull to non-verbally communicate to me "Hey dipshit. You missed one". If the tank isn't trying to make things go fast, you might as well have queued in as a triple DPS + Healer. However, the real kick in the bollocks is that the FF community is on average more afraid to hurt other people's feelings than most communities that it allows bad habits and bad behaviour to fester like an infectious wound. You almost never can give constructive criticism without most people taking personal offense to it and getting their knickers in a twist. No matter the amount of sugarcoating. You end up with absolutely dumbass tanks by level 80 because they've been overcoddled and everyone is afraid to give advice. We all need to be more willing to take, AND give advice. Remember, "you're doing a terrible job" isn't inherently a personal attack. It can just as well be a statement of fact when supported by actual arguments.
Agreed completely, hell using proper mitigation planning, both Warrior AND Paladin don't need healing nearly at all during most level 90 dungeon pulls just due to their insane self heals. I cringe every time i see a medica 2 + regen spamming whm who has yet to cast a single aura veil, their shield, assize, and most of all holy, the spells that would actually provide decent mitigation AND damage in their kit. Not only that but their massive overhealing messes with my timing of my Warrior mits so i'm *more* likely to die as a war due to lack of party damage because of their missuse of their class...
@@Trib273 I like to think I'm decent at WHM, but Regen is still the go-to choice of heal spell even amid my Holy spam. Gives me time to throw down 2 oGCDs (definitely Assize if off cooldown). Problem is that Holy takes the full 2.5 seconds to cast so even oGCDs cause clipping. I usually don't end up using Aquaveil, Devine Benison, Tetra, Bene, etc unless the pull has gone on way too long and I start using Lillies to heal. Optimally, I use the Lillies between pulls and a whimsical superfluous splattering of oGCDs between Dias as the tank pulls. On the other hand, yeah, if they aren't casting Holy, it's practically begging the tank and themselves to run out of resources. What else are they even doing if they already have Regen and even Medica II going?
@@fluffyfang4213 using regen during the trash pull is alright cuz you're running anyways and you htime to dot all the enemies and place a regen before planting yourself and holy'ing, i'm more or less talking about the folk who let neither fall off, and so they soend their time waiting for hp to drop and those cooldowns to fall off to reset them
its still more damage to just clip assize but I do wish holy was a short cast like the rest of our kit so we could use our already few ogcds :( @@fluffyfang4213
I mostly agree, but when a ninja puller refuses to stop despite being asked to and told that the tank or healer is new, I think it is entirely justified to refuse to tank or heal for them and let them die repeatedly until they cut it out.
The only bad experience I’ve had with the game so far was getting yelled at in Shisui of the Violet Tides, I didn’t watch a guide cause I thought it would just be a steamroll (and it was) but I still messed up two mechanics and all the healer said was “the water” then proceeded to rail off on me. How was I supposed to tell what “the water” meant, the whole damn dungeon is underwater. It’s simply unavoidable with all the WoW and Moba players.
I'm actually surprised it was a WoW player, the ones I've encountered have been super chill. Moba players though? Yikes, I avoid those people like the plague since I have friends who play Smite and that game turns them into fiends when they do play. Only time I get angry is in Crystalline Conflict, but it's mainly just me mocking myself for my stupidity. Occasionally I'll vent to myself about my teammates not pushing the crystal alongside me but I never lash out in game at people
Was tanking a dungeon- the healer decided I wasn’t pulling fast enough and would USE RESCUE TO DRAG ME AROUND. Then the bard would run ahead and bring me things like a cat bringing dead mice. They didn’t use the chat. I died so many times because there were just TO MANY and the healer WAS TOO FOCUSED ON DRAGGING ME AROUND Just use the chat and I usually will pull more- I often pull half the floor because I play healer a lot and know a lot off different healers who don’t like a floor pull. The only time I’ll say no is if we were already having problems. Weirdest experience ever. Never had before nor since a healer using Rescue to manipulate me around the field like that. Only had them ever use it to pull me out of an AOE or drag my body along.
While w2w pulls are generally expected they shouldn't be required...especially if the Tank or Healer is just not ready for big pulls...especially the extreme megapulls. Mt.Gulg, Ala Migo, and Doma Castle come to mind..... I still remember my third run through Mt. Gulg and at the start, I wasn't doing the big pulls. I pulled the first two groups and begun rolling Cooldowns.....and the mentor Sage healer just went forward without my knowing, pulling the next group. He runs past me with all of these extra enemies, and even though I was spamming AoE, I didn't pick up the aggro in time, and that healer died to Autos. He then went off on me, calling me a YPYT and abandoned the dungeon soon after....
I will admit to some level of "You pull it, You tank it" when I play as tank, but this is only for people who continue to run ahead of me and pull the mobs *after I have explicitely asked them to stop*. I will do my best to wall to wall, but if you keep going out of your way to pull before me, be the tank you want to see next time. I know that may be wrong but I will at least check, I know it only punishes the healer, but after asking that they let me lead the pull as the tank (because I have damage reduction and mitigation abilities suited for getting hit). Worst I've done is tankbust a healer who practically refused to heal me though and that got me a warning. I will say that as a tank main who's currently a DPS because my favourite tank is in a bad spot imo, the most annoying thing is a dps or healer that will intentionally pull for the tank. Pulling by accident? That's ok, bring it to the tank and it'll be fine. Pulling for the tank intentionally? I know some tanks don't have a problem with this. Pulling for the tank after being asked to stop? Now you've kinda crossed the line...
Indeed, as you said with your tank buster example, is exactly the reason why I am saying the better action on your end is to play right. Be the better person. And then report them after the fact. That way, they will be the ones getting a warning and not you. This applies universally 😊 but I do understand the frustration with the ninja pulling, absolutely! In fact, you explicitly requesting that they stop, would actually give you a better position when reporting because you clearly made the person aware that you had a problem with their behavior, which is a crucial part of a report. 😊 But that falls to the floor if you do ypyt yourself. Just keep that in mind! 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Unfortunately I fall into the bracket of people where I can't be bothered to put in the effort to report someone who made 1 duty annoying when they're the minority. It's like, to report someone for making a 10 minute dungeon annoying let's spend 20 minutes navigating the menus and writing an essay when I could just finish the rest of my roulettes and go do something else XD
Literally lol If youre tanking just wall to wall and 90% of parties will oeave that dungeon happy I only notice issues when tanks pull one pack at a time
I'm new to tanking, and have only just made it to 90 on SMN while working my way through the story. When I started DRK, I had a PLD main friend on DPS guiding me through and making sure I knew tank etiquette. I was actually pretty discouraged by the number of people who expect you to know exactly what you're doing right from the start, even in regular dungeons. I think it's important to keep in mind that just because someone no longer has a sprout, doesn't mean they've been playing the game for 10 years. Have a little patience.
I very much agree with this. That's also why the important part is communicating. A lot of players don't get this and choose to get aggressive for whatever reason in either direction! 😅
I've learned that if I accidently pull something before the tank, the best thing you can do is run back to them with it. That way it is not only clustered up, but easy for them to pick up. If you get a mob on you, don't run away, always take it to the tank. If they are struggling to pick it up right away, or don't notice right away, you can run a circle around the pack the tank already has to stay out of enemy melee range, but stay near tank aoe range. Much as a healer can withhold heals from a tank who is being a butt, a tank can likewise shirk on a healer who is being a butt. Really though just makes headaches for all involved.
Legendary parties are those who remember that dps also have mitigating tools. The shock when I saw a ypyt tank watch a monk solo a pack using his tool kit and then kick the tank from party was chefs kiss lol.
What a Legend, what a True Gentleman and Gigga Chad, I deeply respect players who know their game, and show by pure power of skill wanabee hostage holders how purely optional they are.
Had a tank try to kill me in smileton the other day cause I was pulling whatever enters my range as MCH........ despite me literally being on top of them and having all the mobs come to us 😅 Unfortunately for them I main tank and actually know how to use Arms Length and mitigation to survive 🤣 They also did not say a word before straight trying to kill me 😛
See exactly! If you're standing on the tank, it isn't even a big problem if you accidentally pull something! 😂 That sounds like the quintessential ypyt tank you had right there. No warning even! 😅
You were also misbehaving, though. If you were intentionally pulling shit the tank wasn't pulling, and doing it repeatedly and purposely, then you fall into the very first category of bad behavior. Even if YPYT isn't "right", neither is repeated ninjapulling. Whether you're a tank main or not makes no difference. The whole point of this video is to not make shit harder for other players. Not every tank is the best at having huge pulls.
@elvangulley3210 as ceres said, two wrongs don't make a right. It is simply better to do your part right, and then report after the duty, if the offending player refuses to communicate and cooperate. That way you also avoid any punishment, should someone in the duty decide to report your ypyt behavior. 😊(which could be a separate player and not the Ninja puller!)
I do YPYT if im playing as tank, and am watching a cutscene. you ignore my cutscene you die. as usually i take a drink or eat a snack during cutscenes. i also use the arena border as a small ready sign, if ur in the walls of the arena withotu watching a cutscene ur ready to fight.
For me, it's the sprout tank that has no levels on healers pulling wall to wall and are very stingy with their mitigation... I have my eyes on you TBN only DRKs. I have once burned all 3 aetherflow stacks, all pet abilities and spamming PHYSICK just to keep him alive.
Based on stories I've heard, them even using TBN is above the minimum performance... Which should be concerning! 😂 It is weirdly uncommon to meet drk and gnb that think they're dps, but maybe they chose the job because they look cool rather than the role 😅
I am a sprout tank... and play DRK but seriously I have only done wall to wall in lower ARR dungeons and that even very uncommonly. If I have ever queued with you and trouble you then I'm sorry.
@@reyjusufNot in particular. It can happen in every dungeon. It's just more prevalent on DRKs and GNB to some extent.. Almost never with PLD and (especially) WAR.
DPSing as a healer is such a goddamn chore, though. I am a new player, and just recently leveled my first healer to 50. It didn't even really occur to me that I shouldn't keep everyone topped off at all times, and when it did I got to DPSing. It is then that I realised how mind-numbingly boring it is to do damage as a healer in this game - I'd rather play a curebot and watch healthbars go green.
You know, I am sort of glad that new players realizing how healers work in that aspect also find it boring. Because to my knowledge many veteran players also despise how dull it is to spam one button while waiting for things to heal 😅 hopefully something more gets added in the next expansion 😕
I'll also add, as someone who has been leveling/playing Healers a bunch as of late (WHM 70-90, SCH 30-50, and SGE 90 soloing Alpha/Sigma/Delta raids), that yea, it really is boring DoT enemies as you go, spam an AoE once everyone is grouped, heal when necessary to prevent the tank going down, repeat ad nauseum I appreciate Sage for being so offensive in nature as a healer, but that doesn't change the one-button rotation it and other healers have; damage is a way of damage mitigation, which is a form of healing
I main AST which is supposedly the most involved healer job and it's still dull compared to playing any other class. It also takes mes forever to complete the story mode fights with the abysmally low dps. I sometimes switch to DNC for story content to make the fights go faster.
you mean you rather do nothing? I agree that healing should be a lot more demanding than it currently is, but if you arent healing then you should be contributing elsewhere. balancing healing and max damage output is a really joyful experience when the content is proper balanced half decently.
This is a really timely video for me. I’m levelling paladin right now and I’ve basically only tanked in duty support so doing fast-paced roulettes with other people is hard. And also I have a steam deck with virtual keyboard so typing is really slow and I have to stop what I’m doing to say anything, which makes communication really difficult. I’ve tried to say I’m not comfortable with big pulls before the dungeon actually starts but I can only get out like four words in that time I had a ninja puller a few days ago in duty roulette and I wanted to say something but I didn’t want to delay the party more while I typed it out, since I felt they were already impatient with me. I’ve heard of tanks using macros to put messages in chat though, I might try to make one to explain my communication barriers and difficulty going fast
I think your suggestion of making such a macro is a good idea. That would at least let you communicate that at the start. You could also try making macros with other things you might say more frequently. Like if you deal with people pulling for you a lot, asking them to wait with a macro could be handy!
My most toxic behaviour so far was when i was playing white mage in a dungeon. I think it was the tomberry infested one, i forgot the name, anyways, i was playing SCH until then and having the fairy and shields made healing easy but when i decided to try WHM i was mixing up my heals, panick healing because of the wall to wall pull that i just could not react fast enough to and overall falling behind in the dun. The tank was a paladin and we were stuck in the second boss because i just couldn't heal fast or good enough. I got so embarassed and felt so bad that i was not doing my job properly that i just abandoned the dungeon and those guys behind. It's been months since that happened and i still feel bad for that.
I know how this feels and I would urge you that when you're ready to pick WHM up and try again. Take your time. Fiddle with your UI and keybinds if you need to. Heck, use the Duty Support system just to practice getting used to your abilities. How they work, when to use them, really learn them. That way when you're with human players, you've got more muscle memory under your belt. So much of healing is about decision making in the moment - you'll get it if you take your time!
this is why I strongly encourage people to not level too much with roulettes if they want to properly learn a job. whm has kind of a unique style compared to the other healers in a dungeon, its def worth learning somewhat linearly
So I agree entirely for the most part. The part where I 100% disagree with is where tank and healer get to decide the pace of the dungeon. I 1000% think the tank gets the majority of the say when pulling period, the healer second and the dps should just be happy they get to play dps. Tanks are literally the ones pulling, they choose the mits, ect. Healers are the ones who have to keep up the appropriate amount of healing so if they don't have the capacity for wall to wall then they can choose to slow down as well. Hell I dont even care if healers don't dps but it is very preferred obviously. This is coming from someone who plays tank/dps about as evenly as possible and healer not too far behind. I would also like to say that the tank "You pull it you tank it" should only ever be applied if there is repeated purposeful pulls on the healer/dps part. If I ever (which never really happens aside malikahs well golems) pull a single pack as a tank and another party member chooses to pull the next pack ON PURPOSE aka on the second pack after I said not too, then you better believe I am ranged attacking as a tank on the first mob pack only and shirking them. They stay in their lane clear as day. It doesn't take that much longer to slow pull. Either that or they need to stay tanking, either or.
Hmm I do agree on the point that since tanks and healers have a bigger impact on the groups capacity to do big pulls, it makes sense they have a bigger say. But in fairness, if the dps is lacking, that can sometimes cause a pull to take too long and cause the tank and healer to run out of resources. This is of course rare, and something like a warrior can often continue for nearly forever on your average pull. But it is worth noting that dps aren't just there, they also do their part 😊 I can see the point in not helping after stating your mind to the dps, but personally I just think it is better to let the dps keep making the mistake of being the bad guy, and then simply report them after the dungeon if they don't see reason. Remember, that dps is probably only playing around you doing this punishment. The next tank they get paired with, they ninjapull again. If they instead learn, either by listening to reason in the first place (which your example states they wouldn't before you do your thing), or by eventually accumulating enough reports for this annoying behavior to get a talking to, then they would probably change for the better in the long run. But I do understand that you might not want to bother with all that in the moment 😊
"You pull it you tank it" is a warning I give sometimes, and only to players I am already coordinating with. As for random groups, I do my best as a tank main to give people the best experience possible. if there is a problem player, I adjust. Each of the 3 roles are capable of being toxic but in my 15+ years of playing MMOs with tank/healer/dps the tank is the least likely to employ toxic tactics. Some can be a bit too proud of their role but I can't remember a single time a tank started the drama or was the first to rage quit because thier party wasn't performing to thier expectations. You may have a different experience from mine and I respect that. I have seen tanks let thier pride get the better of them. My theory is that some tank players use the role as a means of having control of something in thier life and when someone takes that away it pisses them off. However, control is the name of the game when we're talking about the tank. Each role controls some element of the fight but the tank is everything and sometimes has to play every position. I don't completely disagree with your pacing and fairness point, but the tank is the one driving. The tank controls the mobs so the dps can kill it "quickly", the healer heals the tank so the tank can continue to control everything and even if you don't have a tank or they die, either the healer or the dps has to take on the role to keep thins going. Things should be fair for everyone but I feel like for the 10-20 mins you are going to be dealing with strangers, who you'll likely never see again, its just better to let a decent tank control the pace, and if its too much for the healer then the tank should listen to their party and adjust thier speed.
Group agreement is one thing ninjapullers usually don't ask they just keep doing it cos they think they are deciding how fast you can go. I had one today, a healer who made my job twice as hard by pulling so far ahead it messed up everything. He was rude and aggressive as well, he is now blacklisted and my next run went smooth as a nut, same dungeon, next run different group. I play tanks and healers a lot but when I DPS I never ninja pull because I know how annoying it is. Also running way ahead of your healer at the beginning of the run is a sure way to die, noone can heal round corners and if they cant see you that's it, just wait a sec it will make the run go so much smoother and noone dies, also have fun it is supposed to be a game after all.
Based healer. Twice as hard, you say? did you have to press twice as many cooldowns, or hit your aoe twice as many times, what do you mean twice as hard if the healer is taking the hits?
I've definitely been guilty of attacking too much as healer. I greed and see how much damage I can do, then panic cause I forgot the tank can die. Usually I can risk letting the tank get low but there have been times I underestimate the pack's damage and they almost or do die.
This is more noticeable on alliance raids, but I hate players that keep the rest hostage by not rolling on loot. Also people that can't wait for other players watching a cutscene
Oh boy the ones with the loot are really something. I mean, one thing is doing it, which is already annoying, but then you keep doing it after others in the raid have started requesting you roll (almost like they've tipped their hand that they are NOT leaving!) 😂
The cutscene pullers are also annoying. I do get where they're coming from, but still though 😅
I can understand the CS pullers’ mindset in CT, but that still doesn’t mean I agree. Come on, guys. You’ve got someone who’s seeing the story for the first time. Just because you want to speedrun and not wait the extra 45 seconds doesn’t mean they deserve to be left behind
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Ah yes, the cutscene pullers. I will never understand why someone would do/wait for a ready check, and then upon seeing that there are indeed a few people that are not ready... they pull? It happens so often lol
Cutscene pullers just annoy me. There's tons of new players that didn't get to experience the "2015 raid". I do remember in one World of Darkness run I was tanking, a MCH pulled on Cloud when people had posted there were cutscenes. All 6 healers watched him die
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I also don't like cutscene pullers, bit did it unintetionally once (missclicked skill button while answering chat message). I apologised after doing so btw. Human words really help
Special shoutouts to ninja pullers on the Atomos fight in Labyrinth of Ancients. Having half the raid in the A lane while only one or two people can fight the boss in the B and C lanes because someone pulls early enough that a lot of people don't make it before the arena is sealed off (and the teleport only takes you to the A lane) and it taking forever as a result is not only one of the least fun experiences the game offers, it also is completely the opposite of the ninja puller's intention (unless they're trying to grief, I suppose).
That example is Bad design leads to toxic play. Boss should be unpullable until all 8 players hit the platform....you can't expect 24 ppl to be considerate anywhere in this world
@@one_eyeddd473 I think LoA in general has some awful design. The initial mob pulls are uninteresting, Bone Dragon is basically just a timewaster, ninja pull shenanigans aside Atomos requires half the raid to stand on platforms and just do nothing, Thanatos has a similar mechanic where only one Alliance can really do anything useful... Not a fan of LoA.
I don't even really blame the players for that most of the time. The fight gets started when anyone steps on the platform (a perfectly valid thing for people to try to do, especially considering how much whinging for groups to "get on the platforms" is done) but that's still very far from any of the Atomos mobs and seemingly out of aggro range, so I don't think most people are even expecting the platforms to be what starts the fight.
That combined with the out-of-boss-room teleport always sending everyone to group A's platform basically just has me blaming the design for this one rather than the playerbase.
@@jasonbrown2587 Brudda, wtf is you talking about. It _is_ badly designed. It's very easy to accidently pull it, it aggros from farther away than anything else I've seen. And ready checks are nice and all, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen them blatantly ignored in 24 mans, or even 8 mans. I would love it if everyone was super considerate but you _can't_ expect that because a-holes exist.
@@RockR277I have to agree as well. There have been times where the boss has aggro'd onto me the moment I stepped past the purple line which is why I stand on the stairs now. It's why people don't get hostile with that pull to my knowledge due to the aggro range being so wide
I wanna point out something that I’ve been noticing more frequently lately, and it actually scared me away from tanking back in 2013 until last year when I finally tried tanking again, getting an attitude with someone who is trying to learn a new role. My very first dungeon back in 2013 I was new to tanking and trying to learn. I wasn’t completely sure with what I was doing. The healer says, and I’ll never forget it as it stuck with me for YEARS and i refused to tank in any mmo, “why is our tank such trash?” And proceeded to say some other things. I finally broke past my fear and now my friends consider me one of the best tanks to bring along. I try my best to help new people, and will call out anyone bold enough to attempt what that healer did to me 10 years ago
FFXIV tanks are usually treated much more nicely and given a lot of leeway. Def not like WoW. I've only had two truly terrible tanks for personality reasons, and a third where the entire party had to literally go on strike before the tank would turn on their tank stance
The only ever time I've complained about our tank was just recently, when I turned on tank stance first in a trial and the other person hit theirs like 30 seconds later without saying anything and stole aggro just before the triple spark, before proceeding to fumble when trying to mitigate it and sending the healers into a panic. If I had noticed in time I would have cast cover on them out of spite.
I'm like this with BLM. In Prae of all things, running for moogle tomes, ran it all day,no issues. Then in one of my last runs, the tank calls me trash, saying that he doesn't have all day. So I left and never touched it again till this week.
me and other 2 tanks got called simpletons and drunk for not coordinating well on a Endwalker alliances raid a couple days ago... I assumed the 2 warriors would tank but they were probably newish just like me (Dark Knight). the fight with the siblings was scuffed to hell but we did not wipe at least, it got so bad that the rest of the party had to step in. Should have reported them :( it really made me want to quit the game (mind you I am proging UCOB and been playing the last 3 years). My friend who is a casual player got called a bot for making small pulls. so yes, it is better then wow but recently there are more ppl with things to say @@redjoker365
Your courage and decision not to allow that negative experience to continue to affect you is admirable. Major kudos to you, bravo.
As a tank main, I typically don't care if someone pulls the next group before me. But, for the love of Hydaelyn, at least pull them towards me so I can grab aggro. I'll only YPYT ninjapullers if I have to keep chasing them all over the map
As a Godcomplexed healer I can agree with your sentiment, someone else then you getting agro is nothing bad, but they should drop them at your location.... only exception might be if a ranged enemy is on their ass.
I tried having this talk with a friend who wanted to main healer and insisted that if she pulled aggro from the tank she'd be better off running the add to a dps. She doesn't play with people anymore..... sad times, but...well....I can understand why she got her butt roasted for it a few times.
yessir! I will be an asshole ninja puller but I will make my lack of empathy as easy for you as possible o7
I just run the mobs I have to where we're fighting and assume the ninjapuller will bring theirs over into my AOE too. Easy.
my current response to "you pull it you tank it" is "actually no, if for some reason someone other than the tank has aggro please stand literally on the tank til they take it off you please so they can do their job" solves both problems at once, no tanks failing their jobs, and no dps for some reason a million miles away with the adds
I was healing as a SCH once in expert roulette and the DRK tank wasn't using TBN on a mob pull. It's the most conspicuous mit, since the shield actually shows up on their health bar. The pull was nearly a wipe and the tank did die during it. I asked them why they didn't use TBN. Their response? "It's a dps loss".....
For DRK who don't know, TBN is a short duration shield that, if popped, gives you a free mana ability. Meaning that as long as it breaks, it is mana neutral and you get a mit. I explained this to him and he still didn't use it in the second pull and died. I left because the dungeon was gonna be a chore. Unfortunately, you can't heal stupid.
I get the opposite DRKs all the time, where the *only* mit they use is TBN and nothing else lol.
Lol dps loss on a job that isn't about dps. I call it wowbrain. That damage meter fried alotta players minds
@one_eyeddd473 hmm that's actually more an ff14 thing than wow. See all the youtubers expect tanks to do high damage along with healers
@@one_eyeddd473 sad thing is with FF14 jobs design, all of them are dps. _if_ their TBN shield doesnt break, they lose out on extra damage. TBN, cost MP, and DRK have two dmg abilties, one single target, and other line aoe that also cost MP. DRK extra dmg are directly from these abilities. Basically DRK is poorly designed defensively as TBN needs to break to be refunded free cost of damage ablities but wont break if have too good mitigation from tank themselves and the healer. Its all so counterintuitive 😶
Duno if I agree with leaving, would probably just have left them dead and cleared it with the 2 dps Tanking..... Rezing him is a PERSONALIZED DPS lose after all :3
Can confirm: Talking like a human being resolves most problems most of the time.
Had the nicest Mentor Roulette experience the other day where me and the DPS taught a baby tank to pull wall-to-wall. It was great. We got him to use his Mit skills and everything. And it all started with me just asking him to use 'Rampart.'
Talk. Ask questions. This community is generally very supportive.
That's a wonderful experience! 😄
Your mileage may vary. This morning, I let a sprout Scholar know that they should learn the rest of their kit because they wouldn't be able to handle wall pulls if they only used Physick, but it was okay because I was on Warrior.
They rage quit.
The vast, vast majority of the time whenever I advise anything in a roulette, I'm met with dead silence and usually an ignoring of said advice. Not even a "FU, you don't pay my sub" but just nothing. I don't think most people doing content in this game are even looking at their chat logs.
@@Philip027 For sure. That's why sometimes you gotta get a bit creative. "Oops...My DoT hit that pack of enemies over there. How could this have happened? Guess we're doing a double pull. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Hey, bud. Maybe you should give that 'Rampart' button a try. I heard it's a pretty good ability."
its a total coin flip, I always wait until a duty is over to make any suggestions to players. then if they are willing to listen, they can take it forward with them, and if they are a pigheaded baby they can flip shit without it negatively effecting the rest of the party.
Worst case of ninjapulling I've ever seen was when I was leveling my first healer job, I loaded into Bardam's and immediately crashed (happened a lot back then, turns out my harddrive was dying). Apparently while I was gone, one of the DPS ran off and tried to start pulling. Tank and other DPS stayed at the start to wait for me. When I got back in the ninjapuller and the tank were arguing because _the healer was literally not there, no we're not pulling yet_ and eventually the puller got kicked. We waited a bit for a replacement and when we finally got one, it turned out it was someone who was watching the original ninjapuller streaming and immediately tried to kick the tank! Which obviously did not go through. He started throwing a fit and we were all like "Really dude". Eventually he calmed down and we actually got through the dungeon together just fine lmao.
That extra detail with the person watching the stream really made this go from silly to absolutely crazy! Thank you for sharing! 😂
Its such a strange coincidence that you posted this video today. Earlier i had a rare bad party experience in expert roulette where the tank had a massive ego. Him and the DPS summoner were bullying the scholar healer saying that he's not doing his job and that a healer is supposed to only heal and not attack - which is an outrageous take especially for a lvl 90 dungeon imo.... we wiped once at a boss fight and then they started grilling the healer. And instead of just being chill, the tank started purposefully standing in all the AOE's racking up vuln stacks. After the 2nd boss i confronted him about it and he decided to just completely stop, not pulling anything. He went on to say "go and show me to kill all them without a tank" and that "a healer must heal a tank, this is the point and i can not trust any healer.". Now it was at this point that i told him to stop being a little bitch in the chat and that we should go, bc this was literally just his huge ego and god complex as a tank talking. He was actively making it more difficult for the healer and then claiming that they weren't healing. At that point we ended up just voting to abandon the duty.
I play healer as a main normally so i could see that the healer WAS doing their job perfectly fine. And i did defend them in the chat throughout the dungeon even when i had to use google translate sometimes bc the tank was talking in german sometimes.
The bottom line is that it is never okay to behave that way as a tank. Belittling and bullying a healer because of 1 wipe or under any circumstance is not right. Its a rare occurrence but it is very jarring when it does happen.
I hope you reported them because that is some toxic behavior. Bullying is never acceptable.
It not right to bully or belittle someone, regardless of role, IMO. Even if they're doing dumb stuff or aren't very good at their job. If you just can't stand it, leave or initiate a vote kick, but don't be a dick. Some people just want to watch the world burn.
I do occasionally run into former WoW players who don't know healers in FFXIV are actually expected to dps, especially in later content. Most of them just go 'oh, really?' but once in a while you get a butt who thinks they are the only one right and healer should never do dps in group content. Sadly, bullying healers in WoW is an all too common thing, and one of the reasons I never took up the role till I played 14.
Only thing I can figure is they will get an ego check when they try to do higher tier content and can't figure out why all of the healers who have lots of clears keep dpsing or can't get into any statics.
vote abandon if you only have 30 minutes to play. vote dismiss tank is better. leaving duty is best. let them wait. you just get 30 minutes penalty.
I always leave. I don't want to deal with crazies.
The fact that people can make it to level 90 in this game and still believe such a thing shows how poorly the game actually teaches players. 14 is not like other MMORPGs with solidified job roles, everyone is a dps with some extra stuff depending on the job. Which is how all FF games work really.
As a tank main, I don't mind other people pulling as long as they pull things in a predictable and controllable way. If they pull and stand on me or near enough that I can grab them with an AOE - great! If they pull them and then run around like a chicken with their head cut off, despite that not actually helping them dodge damage and making it harder to group the mobs, that's when it's bad.
I've only seen it a few times, but there's also a DPS side to the coin my ex-WoW healer friend refers to as "Healers will adjust" mentality - where the DPS refuse to dodge any AOEs and instead greed their rotations for the sake of maximum parse, and end up putting the whole of their survival onto the healer. Sometimes we joke it's ley line /black mage syndrome. It definitely feels rarer than the ones you brought up though. It would be interesting if there were more DPS downs as the AOE affliction than everything stacking vulnerability. We so rarely see anything outside of poison as status afflictions either.
Haha, as a healer main, those dps who pull aggro and then don't take it to the tank are the bane of my existence! When I'm not healing, I usually play ranged phys, so I run and gun a lot while the tank is pulling and will often pick up some aggro, but best believe I'm running with the tank and sit right tf on the tank's lap when they stop. All the aggro immediately goes poof!
Why would you take it to the tank thats the entire crux of why you are grabbing agros as DPS you have the mobility/are ahead because tank is slow, you pop your mit's since they are being unused other wise and pull to the wall just like you would if you were tanking at that point the tank takes over and you've already built meter and done DPS to the mobs.
@@undercoverspy123 As stated, it's about predictability and control. The expectation is the tank ultimately gets all aggro. If the tank is so far behind because you're a super mobile class, you can bring the mobs to the tank and it won't slow the pull down since killing all the mobs at the end or middle ultimately doesn't matter. The distance is always the same, so the speed at which it is covered is what matters. It actually means dragging them back to the tank is faster whenever peloton is an option, as that same distance is traversed faster when all the mobs are dead.
@@blakenite No you just move them like normal, there is no reason to do any of this tanks have targeted gapclosers and have to use less mitts, and you clear faster if you just pull like a tank would.
@@undercoverspy123 Ah yes, my gap closer, which I got at level... 74. Early enough to use it in 25 of the game's 90 dungeons. Peloton by contrast starts at level 20, and is usable for every dungeon but Satasha and Tamtara deepcroft since Copperbell mines syncs to 20.
Maybe if SqEnix decided to move those gap closers back to significantly earlier level wise (which I'd love) you'd have a point. The tank may be able to use the gap closers to chase you if they realize you've run ahead, assuming there are any stragglers they can still target. However, in the vast majority of cases it is better to drag mobs back to the tank if you insist on rushing ahead with mobility skills to pull faster. Again, the sooner they die, the sooner everyone can be sped up via peloton to cover the same distance faster.
I remember the good old days of 4.0 and earlier where every dungeon I got into started with everyone saying hi and agreeing on the pace. I don't expect everyone to wanna talk the whole time but I do miss making friends with strangers every run.
does this not still happen? i personally start every run with a greeting (and end with a gg), and if i'm nervous or inexperienced or rusty etc, i tell the party before we start so that they know what to expect. ive seen some variation of this plenty of times, and i assume that everyone is confident enough if i dont (which can then be further gauged by actual performance, which usually just means pull less on a wipe). on behemoth world btw
i mean, literally every dungeon i jump into up to today, everyone still says hi, save maybe 1 or two runs...but plenty of people are still social
@@timestopMachinist less often then it used to atleast on aether in my experience. And when people do its usually just "o/" at the start and "gg tyfp" at the end not many people talk throughout the dungeons anymore especially mentors.
This is true. The wow refugees of bfa shadowbringers wannabee xpac has killed the social identity of ff14. Idgaf what anyone says. Plus I'm sick of the pruning and homogenization of ff since shadowbringers
As someone who started in 4.0: C'mon, that never happened lol
The amount of times I have stated 'Hey, I'm getting used to my key binds, I might be slow, sorry' at the start of a dungeon/raid/duty, and everyone went 'dw its cool' is so nice. I even had the tank go 'I'll pull smaller' and he did, which I appreciate. One time we had a newbie DPS, a newbie tank, and myself as a healer learning the new key binds, we took it slow. Who'd have think that communicating before hand helps?
It's quite a magic trick, the communication move! 😁 I'm glad you've had good experiences with this! 😊
This isn't regarding any sort of toxic player behavior, but rather two things that I've found helpful when trying to communicate. I dunno how many other people have this problem, but it's a little hard for me to keep up with chat because I have limited brain RAM-I'm already focused on playing the game so I might miss something in the chat. If that's you, I have two bits of advice:
1. Make a separate party chat (I usually have it be party chat messages and loot)
2. Arguably more important, give party chat a notification sound! At this point my brain has kinda been trained to hear the sound and make my eyes flick down to see what's up. Extremely helpful. Actually helped me not get a little salty at an instinctive accidental ninjapull, lol.
I did this initially to get myself to read chat more, but it became a problem when the chat noises were playing during cutscenes and ruining the immersion. Had to turn chat sounds off after that.
Always good to communicate whenever something goes wrong. Best way to make the run go by so much better.
But remember Tanks, the best way to be petty against a Ninja is to move the mobs out of their Doton~
Not the doton! 🤣🤣🤣
@@CaetsuChaijiCh 🤭🙊😈
"fuck your doton" ~ DRK with Salted Earth 😂
I try to be a good tank but sometimes I want to be petty so bad!
I've done this when I'm having a bad day and I get a ninja who does the single target doton. I know it's wrong to do that, but I'm hoping it shows one reason why doton is usually not a great idea for bosses.
My biggest pet peeve is people who don't wait for first-timers to watch cutscenes. Had a Thaleia run recently (as in, one where you REALLY want to watch the pre-boss cutscene) where we got to the boss room, someone put up a ready check, and I told the group "we have someone in a cutscene in our party". Someone immediately jumped on me going "duh, that's what the ready check is for" and before I could finish typing out "well sometimes people pull even if everyone doesn't ready up" the person who started the ready check had already pulled.
Another Thaleia run there were a bunch of people in cutscenes and someone literally said "screw your cutscenes I wanna get to bed" and pulled like two seconds after the cutscene started. Then spent the entire boss fight arguing with people about why they're allowed to do that and threatened to report anyone who yelled at them for it.
Good ol' NA servers.
The solution to that last scenario seems simple. Report them instead and have a GM read the logs.
using the threat of reports is 100% reportable
As someone who started using WAR as my main in Endwalker, part of the problem I run into is I barely have time to use my human words in dungeons. I'm comfortable pulling wall to wall, but if something goes wrong mid-pull, i don't have time to type in chat box trying to make a suggestion or ask for something lol.
At least as WAR, you can recover fairly easily though.
One thing I see often that makes me pull my hair out is sprouts that don't look or touch the chatbox, ever. I get feeling nervous about talking, but man, all I wanted back when I started a year and a bit ago was for people to tell me what I was doing wrong. It's hard to relate that memory to the tanks that spend the entire Duty with their Stance off at lv 50 and above...
I will say if they are playing on Playstation on Controller, it can take a while to type things out, probably at least one reason people can be silent, I've mostly relagated an entire cross hot bar to just macros to chat a little if things get to dicey, not that that's usually needed... Unless someone decides to leave after 1 wipe to a boss for no reason
Yea I used to be super guilty of not reading chat. It also doesn't help that the loot messages may also push messages away from sight. I def recommend putting a sound notification for party chat. However it might get annoying if someone has an ASCII macro.
The chat functionality in ffxiv is very limited. A maximum of four tabs and two windows for channel text, and in cases of using a small screen (steamdeck) the text can't go below 12 point font, which only gives you about 6 lines in a reasonably sized window.
In City of Heroes I used to be able to do things like have a separate windows for guild chat and zone events so I never missed anything.
@@thebrave9971 i bought a cheap keyboard just to type in this because it got pretty horrendous after i joined an fc
YES. Had a sprout tank that just never noticed we were telling him to put stance on. Ended up asking my friend, a bard, to pull so we wouldn't die.
My favorite are the people who don't follow the tank in a wall to wall pull if they accidentally get aggro on the move(like a mch/dnc critting with a big skill) and staying back in the last room, fighting the mob on their own while the tank is up against the wall in the next room. It rarely happens when I'm tanking, but I see it a large amount when I'm healing.
Yeah, I've seen this a few times too lol
its usually a physranged in my experience
I've seen similar, I've made a rescue macro for this specifically. with /p tank cant get aggro with you all the way over there. come join the party. this usually is a gentle enough nudge that if you bring the mob to the party the tank will naturally grab aggro with aoes.
A couple of extra notes for DPS, from someone who almost always plays DPS, since the video focuses a lot on tanks and healers (rightfully so):
- If you do ACCIDENTALLY pull something, don't just stand there or run around like an idiot. Pull the extra mobs over to the tank. While the tank is there to tank, it's not their responsibility to chase your butt half way around the dungeon trying to peel mobs you aggro'd
- Use your mitigation tools. Yes it's the healers job to heal/shield, but using your mits costs you nothing and helps them out. Plus, it might not seem like much if you're just running a casual dungeon but if you ever do any form of harder content you're going to NEED to be used to using your mit tools. Might as well get used to it now.
- Don't just expect the healer and/or tank to do everything because "it's their job." Don't just stand in mechanics because "the healer will just top me up" or stand in bum F nowhere with your stack up marker expecting everyone else to run to you (and why were you standing in bum F nowhere to begin with? Just because your job might let you attack from anywhere in the arena doesn't mean you should). Part of playing a DPS is maintaining your DPS while doing mechanics. That's your responsibility.
When I just started learning DKR, I had my first run in Sastasha, and the SGE constantly kept running ahead and pulling mobs, and then wrote in chat that I should pull more, they can handle it - despite me constantly dropping very low on health in the mobs.
I didn't die, and I didn't state upfront that I was gonna pull small packs. But I was a Sprout Tank in literally the first dungeon cause I wanted to learn, and constantly dropping to low health and running after the Healer was making me extremely nervous, and I wasn't fast enough to type a response in chat.
Luckily, one of the DPS immediately responded in chat that they should "let the Sprout Tank go at their pace".
After that, the SGE stopped running ahead and all went well.
That dps player is a hero honestly. Even if it is such a small gesture, I wonder if the healer would've accepted it as instantly if you had been the one to request it. A third party in the situation so to speak really helps!
This reminds me of when i was tanking also the 1st dungeon and we were just at the end. I was the tank and our puligist just ran off then after a short time came back with a godload of enemies behind him. It ovveran us all killing us all. I don’t remember if he was a sprout or not but it was defenitely a moment where i was like Ohnonono
Thank you for teaching me what YPYT means - something that had gotten thrown my way a few months ago and im only just now learning what the acronym means.
Context: i was leveling my first tank job ever, PLD, and was in Qarn (Normal) with the usual mismatched gear you’d find on a new person, and i had only tanked once before (all my other XP was side quests, hunting logs, etc). All three other party members were level 90 (i could tell because i inspected their characters and they had max level gear, and two had mentor crowns). I began typing into chat “hey im new to tanking, im gonna do small pulls so i can get used to my rotation and using my mitigations at the right time” - and i didn’t even have time to press enter before the other three sprinted ahead without a word. By the time i did send the message, their names in the party list were greyed out from the distance, and no amount of me sprinting could catch up until the first boss room … where the moment I arrived, the healer immediately pulled with one of their DoTs. I had to fight all the trash mobs *and* the boss at the same time.
During the run to the second miniboss, i asked them twice to slow down. No answer. I couldn’t catch up with them (it was a bard using peloton and sprint, and using repelling shot at the right angle to “jump” ahead further whenever they gained enmity, and the healer and other DPS would ride that peloton as long as possible). And i was admittedly wasting my sprint because i would *try* to grab aggro with shield lob and then sprint up, but that would halve my sprint time. The other three wiped twice trying to do this, and then when all the enmity flipped to me, I’d get destroyed in seconds. Then, in chat: “keep aggro better please”
I tried again to explain that they needed to slow down and let me take the lead, no reply. By the time i respawned, they were already sprinting ahead again. I then just … turned off my tank stance. I figured “fine, if they want to rush ahead, why should i even bother?”
SECONDS after turning off my tank stance, the chat lit up with “turn on stance” “shitty tank, turn on stance” and so on. I snapped back with “what’s the point if you won’t let me get aggro on more than one or two enemies at once? Slow down, or tank it yourself.”
The healer (a mentor, i might add!) said “ugh another YPYT sprout, this is why the game is going to shit”. They then proceeded to votekick me. Ten minutes later, i got pulled aside by a GM because they got a report that i had been griefing. Thankfully once I explained what happened and they said “they’d review the logs” they let me go, and a day later I got a follow-up message from the GM team saying the issue was dropped and apologizing for me having such a bad experience.
I never bothered looking up what YPYT means and I didn’t try tanking in solo duty queues for another month, only with friends. I guess I know now, and I also know that they were Ninjapullers!
I'm sorry you had this experience, but thank you for sharing it! I think it gives a lot of helpful insight, both in the kinds of terrible behavior that sometimes can come up, but also in what happens when people report for bad reasons.
Naturally, in this particular instance all three were very severely ninja pulling, and given they kept dying as a result, had absolutely no business repeatedly doing so. 😕 Just like the GM, I don't think you did anything wrong in this situation, as you tried your best, and asked to slow down for good reason, the mentor healer should honestly had been the one reported for their behavior in my opinion 😅
Aint no way a GM responds in 10 min.
@nx6448 it has happened. I believe PART of it depends on whether the incident is still ongoing (in which reacting quickly is key). 😊
I rate your "using human words an 8/10 on the sarcastic scale. Coulda been more drippy, but solid mocking of people allergic to words.
Another part of Ninja Pulling: Some jobs may be trying to rush for maintaining a combo or some such. Farming 43 runs of Lunar Subterra (chest pieces, BiS), I'd Jump at the end of a pull thinking the enemy had enough HP but then it suddenly goes from 25% to 0. I need to rush immediately to the next pack, or lose out on a Mirage Dive - a key DRG resource. Not all Ninja-puling when done intentionally is even malicious. Sometimes we just trying to maintain rotation. Long as we don't run off with the mobs, should be easy to take em back.
Oh it's that Twitter guy!
Ayyy it's the funny spear man
WAITING IN QUEUE
Could just mention something at the beginning of the dungeon, something like “hey sorry if I pull before you occasionally, I just really need to maintain some parts of my combos/rotations”.
@@wolffster25WAITING IN QUEUE
I've had a whole mixed bag of experiences but I would just say this: It might help everyone if we don't automatically assume bad intentions off the bat. What can be attributed to malice is more often ignorance or inattention. Using your words can be helpful instead of making assumptions in the heat of the moment!
I was about to lose my mind over a sprout healer only using cure 1 in level 70 content but at the end i asked if they wanted any advice and they agreed and I told them to use the rest of their kit and that holy stuns, they thanked me profusely and said they had no idea. the game fails to explain so many core concepts to people that shit like this happens all the time lol. I never used a mit during a dungeon pull until was endgame because it took that long for someone to just tell me to do it.
Was taking a friend of mine through AV a few weeks back. The tank was new, my friend was barely getting used to healer, I was on summoner for emergencies and we had a max ilvl ninja. Right at the start the tank asks if we can go slow which both myself and the healer agree to. The ninja says nothing and as we are taking mobs slow as my friend was nervous as well, the ninja pulls half the room and rushes back to us. The first room took 20 min cause of the ninja. They even blamed the healer and myself for not battle rez'ing them while we tried keeping each other alive. Insulted the tank and healer the whole time, but we eventually got through it and all 3 of us reported him. No idea why players are like this.
That is moreso a situation of griefing, as there isn’t and has never been a reason to full pull the first room in AV, and generally is never done. So he most likely just wanted to be a toxic little shit, and I’m glad you reported him.
That person was an asshole, it's AV. As a tank I will try and not pull more than a few groups when I know my DPS have limited AoE and wtw pulling sometimes ends up taking longer than doing 2-3 groups at a time. I try and go in a pace where the healer doesn't get stressed too much as well
in my second dungeon run as a dark knight (and my second run as a tank ever), i went into haukke manor and was typing out a message in chat to say like "hey am new here will do my best" or what have you, and before i could even finish typing, one of the dps in my party ran right ahead and started pulling mobs. and then continued to pull a lot of mobs to me for the rest of the dungeon. it was.... certainly a run? i felt really overwhelmed and kept getting really low on hp - not being able to tell if that was bc we were pulling too much, i wasnt using mits correctly, or if our healer just liked the thrill of letting the tank drop really low lmao.
one specific thing that i remember completely aggravating me is that theres a pack of mobs near either the first or second boss that you DON'T need to pull. you can just leave em alone and walk into the boss room. and i intentionally only pulled the mobs that u need to - only for the dps to stop fighting, run to the side, and pull the unnecessary ones. i was too busy making sure i didnt die to ever actually type in chat. at no point did we wipe, but i remember just being really annoyed about the whole thing and ranting to my girlfriend about it later.
but ive thought about it a bit more lately and well - the dps was definitely just trying to help. they even wished me good luck on my tanking journey at the end! they absolutely had 0 bad intentions in pulling things for me. at the same time, i sorta wish they had just... waited a few moments at the start to see how much i was gonna pull in the first place? or asked me if i wanted to try doing big pulls. as you said, communication is key! (to be fair, i didnt exactly communicate either for them to stop lmao. ig in my defense i was very overwhelmed)
So here is the logic of it all. You said in the video that it’s not the tanks choice always how much to pull. The faulty logic there is a tank is one who has to take all the damage and who can see their current cooldown layout. If they misclicked a cooldown and don’t have anything and dps force the pull and the tank get nervous and uncomfortable and so you ruin that experience for them. Communicate with words not actions. Ask them to pull bigger and accept if they aren’t comfortable
This is exactly it. It takes an incredibly presumptuous person to assume that they know better than the tank and healer what pace they can handle, and if you put those presumptions into practice by pulling ahead you entirely deserve to get YTYP'd. Claiming that setting the pace is a "group effort" is a load of horse shit.
@@samthorne3765I agree with you. I can't tell you how many times I've been forced to pull less due to cooldowns being unavailable and a dps or the healer yanking in several more groups, leaving me to panic. (That being said, I am more okay with the healer pulling as if they're willing to work more, so am I.)
healer cooldowns matter more than tank cooldowns. Therefore, healer sets the pace, period.
I literally have tanked dungeons on sage doing wall to wall pulls when the tank has DCed, or in the rare cases thrown a tantrum where they're then left to watch how they aren't mandatory after all. I've done roulettes with 3 dps and me as a whm, and cleared fine just for fun. The casual content in this game is designed to be VERY easy.
@@nx6448 That is true, but it is also true that not every healer has this kind of knowledge or experience. I don't think the tank or healer are more important. They are part of a symbiotic relationship where when they work well, it's an amazing experience. I've had the healer pull many groups. As I said, if they don't mind healing more, bring it on.
@@wadebelknap7758 Yeah, but the argument was about who sets the pace. I personally think the whole "setting pace" thing is stupid, just pull and see what happens. If you wipe, then you learned something and who cares. But if someone WAS supposed to set the pace, then 100/100 times it is the healer, because a healer can carry a group, a tank can't, not even warrior if the dps is too low.
The issue I have with this is the "ninja pullers" vs "YPYT". Yes, communication is fundamental in dungeons when you have a bad actor in play. But continuous ninja pulling should not be sat upon and waited for after the instance, report during the instance. A multitude of new tanks deal with added stress of tanxiety, because if they lose agro, they are doing their job wrong (what is in their heads) this coupled by the real life anxieties just compound it. You are ACTIVELY making someone's life worst by forcing someone out of their comfort zone and putting warranted stress on someone, decreasing their enjoyment just so you can save a few extra minutes on the final count down. While reporting the person, let them pull to their hearts content if they don't want to listen to reason. There is never a time where it is okay to pull faster than the slowest player's comfort level. mistakes happen, but the intent should be the fun of the players, not forcing them to "overcome" for your need for speed.
learning a new role will take you out of your comfort zone sometimes, sorry to say. if playing a video game is causing you physical duress then you need to take that into account before you queue up, and either pick something else or (more realistically) fortify yourself and dare to be challenged! taking the time to report someone in the middle of a duty not only derails the duty for the entire rest of the party, but it might also cause you to give a hurried and poor report over what might have been a mistake to begin with. I always wait until a duty is over and at least try to ask if it was intentional. ive been wrong before about why people were doing something! also, to be honest its extremely hard to drop aggro as a tank once you have an enemy after you. iron out those fundimentals and you WILL be unstoppable!
When you started off talking about ninja pulling, I completely expected it to be the case of ninjas pulling enemies because their mudras about to run out. I am guilty of such behavior and I apologise.
I mean... 😂 I can see how that would be. No no, I am not singling out any jobs! 🤣
Bruh, your's considered light, had a dungeon run yesterday when the NIN literally ran ahead the whole dungeon and pulled everything before bringing it to the tank. Was it fast? Maybe. Was it ninja pulling? I think that NIN was the definition XD
I am also guilty of this behaviour, but i do not apologise at all
Trying to get the most out of your CD's is ... understandable, and while the Tank might think different, I your DPS addicted healer shallt forgive you and keep thou alive!
I remember when ninja had skills to dump their aggro onto other players....
Sanctioned ninja pulling!
There is a lot of things to take into consideration too, sometimes with the following
I have met DPS that do the ninjapulling but they do in a smart way, if is a RPR with their shield + arms lenght and Bloodbath they can perfectly take away a couple of hits plus put slow over the pull before you (As tank) use 1 AoE to take the pull back, as tank it only takes 1 ability to have all the pull back to you (Which nobody knows)
Me as DPS usually do that trick to encourage tanks and/or help with mitigation as well
As Tank I have mentallity of pulling wall to wall doesnt matter what dungeon is, Unless the healer is new/sprout I will do a slow pacing, otherwise in any Expert I will just vroom
And as for healer, you can perfectly push the tank pulling the rest of the room, if the tank gets a tantrum is their problem, you as a healer can even determine if you are capable or not to manage a pull I always say to tanks "Pull everything I can handle it"
In the end is a matter of Communication, but you can and people do choose how to not waste time in a dungeon, I have had Tanks leaving because I push them to pull more as healer, or healers leaving because they refuse to heal, so is a total /huh
I feel the notion that the group gets to dictate how each member plays their role based off of their understanding of optimal play is a bit of a slippery slope..
There is a difference between nagging a BLM to do perfect fire 4 blizzard thunder and foul rotation versus nagging a BLM that is spamming nothing but blizzard to do a normal rotation. One is being nit picky for the sake of optimisation, which is definitely not the BLM's fault (unless doing ex/savage/ult), and the other is genuinely BLM's fault for not even knowing the basics of their chosen class.
There is also the fact that about every three queues of duty finder I end up with tanks that run into three waves without tank stance, or doesn't use provoke and healer end up dying, or doesn't use aoe, or not using low blow or interject to interrupt cast bars claiming 'they don't have it on the hotbar'. Hells, had TWO MARAUDERS show up in lv60 dungeons without their warrior crystals. Or lv90 healers that literally don't use aoe heals, instead using cure 1 to heal individually.... In Aetherochemical Research Facility😑😑 And not having esuna on the bar. Or Dancers who don't assign dance partner through the entire dungeon and ignores every message telling them to use Closed Position, as well as other ranged DPS not using peloton to speed everyone up. None of this is being 'nit picky'. This isn't about being optimal. This is about players with frustrating performances stubbornly refusing to learn the basics and everyone needing to suffer through it.
Also on esuna: Had one time queuing as tank, got thrown into lv90 dungeon "The Dead Ends", both healer and bard getting hit by the 1st boss doom attacks AND NEITHER WERE CLEANSING IT, so both died and I had to solo the thing after the other dps decided to run away when the stack marker was on their head instead of coming closer (I was PLD and could both heal and use cover). At that point there is really no excuse for players with lv90 characters in a lv90 dungeon with lv90 in multiple classes getting hit by doom and not cleansing, as well as running away with a stack marker on their head. 😫😫😫😫
Edit: three minutes ago, had a lv81 BLM using thunder 1 at a lv60 dungeon. note that lv45 job quest upgrades thunder 1 into thunder 3!!! UGH!!!!!!
As a scholar with a lot of time on my hands both to figure out funky game mechanics and also humour strange behaviours, whenever I get the tanks that only pull one mob, I try to make them take 0 damage for the entire dungeon run, to see if they might feel comfortable pulling more knowing that they're taking... literally 0 damage otherwise.
I can't say I trust them to make any reasonable decision if they only single pull. The only solution that I've seen to be consistent was a ninjapull (much more valid in lower level dungeons where healers don't have aoe attacks) of the next mob back to the tank... because they can absolutely afford to be left unattended for a few seconds, they don't take enough damage from single pulling.
In my defense as a SGE main, pulling mobs for extra toxicons feels super rewarding. My shields break faster than a tank's since I take more damage, and they're quick to cast, so I can easily keep myself alive for 5 seconds once we're done pulling while the tank gets aggro (assuming they didn't already while pulling).
gotta just cross your fingers and hope that being the healer is enough to not make the tank go red in the face and have a tempter tantrum and throw the duty on purpose over misbegotten ideals
As a SGE main myself i feel you, SGE's kit naturaly make's him somewhat of a tanky class, even if only for 5 or so seconds every few packs
and when the group doesn't mind i'll pull ahead of the tank (when possible) myself reducing some of the mob pressure and moving faster
only a dps gain to pull the first pack, then you need to sit on that pack and AoE while tank runs to next pack. Dotting them is a dps loss.
Healer Main (AST): I dont ninja-pull, but i often run ahead, to hint to the tank that i can handle more dmg.
Some bite some don't... ( i dont force it, as i dont aggro mobs ahead)
When I tank a dungeon I usually try to be forgiving of ninja pullers, and keep ahead of the DPS so that I can get aggro before they get there. BUT, if we're waiting on someone to finish their cutscene and you pull the boss, I'm gonna keep my butt planted on the ground and let you 1v1 the boss
Also, if you're playing a healer or caster, and you notice that some of the mobs are aggroed to a non-tank (and that person isn't going to the tank to let the tank pick up aggro), don't forget you have a class ability that lets you put a target to sleep for 30 seconds!
Another (potentially better) option is to provoke the boss and pull them out of the arena, it'll reset the boss if the boss gets sealed out of the boss arena.
I just returned to the game earlier this month and decided to try tanking while running through NG+ and omg the ninjapulling can be terrible sometimes. Even when telling the party that I am new to tanking I would get some DPS running ahead and grabbing more enemies without saying anything. You'd think the first step would be a simple couple of words asking to pull more but nope. I've only had a single person ask me to pull more instead of just taking it upon themselves to pull everything. Despite that I still try to do my best and not let them die.
The fact that its happened multiple times and you still dont understand to just pull more is kinda crazy
@@celestielsigh and when the DPS and healer can't keep up and it ends in a wipe I'm sure that's my fault too.
I'm gonna be blunt man. Tanking is easy. All you need to do to survive most level 60+ pulls is to use one mitigation at a time in sequence. If you die? It is literally not your fault because you are doing exactly as the game intended. It is the Healers fault.
So seriously. Double pull. You will only die if your healer sucks and damn them if they blame you. It ain't you.
@@TheGreatDanish yup, that's usually what leads to slower or smaller pulls is death. But I've hit 90 with warrior and am able to handle things myself most of the time now. Tanking is a lot easier than I had previously thought it would be.
My worst queue was as a WHM healing a DK a few years ago when they were lacking in their low level kit...the DK kept overpulling and I was only able to heal and I was running out of mana. When I ran out of mana from the excessive healing and cleansing, we wiped. I asked to pull less, tank refused and said I should just heal better...then that it was not my place to say anything about his pulls because he was tank. I did snap back that I was more important because I was healing and couldn't keep up which imo is valid in that moment, it's not like I demanded something, I asked and explained I was not able to keep up. The run ended about 8-9 wipes in with me healing no one, leaving them dead, and taking the packs on myself one by one.
Imo I was forced to behave that way and did the right thing and I am thankful every day I've never been pushed to that point again because of an unreasonable tank.
Yikes. Yeah I can understand that situation! Personally if it got that bad, I think I would just had left. I am impressed by your tenacity (not the stat!)
Depending on what dungeon it was, and how big the pulls were, a dark knight today at least, should be perfectly capable of doing the same giga pulls that any other tank can, at least below level 42, as that specific level warrior has invuln as an advantage. The requirement is that the dark knight uses their cooldowns smartly. And then of course, a giga pull is always also dependent on the healer. Especially in those levels! So I imagine that dark knight wasn't very good or very reasonable given that it sounds like they kept doing the same pulls that didn't work 😅
@CaetsuChaijiCh I really should have left, not sure why I stuck around 🤣
Did the DPS actually side with the Tank, or where you just too pissed to continue with your 2 side guns ?
Kudos for showing your overconfident meat shield their place, ((Aka Tanks who talk big but cant back it up, and lack politeness to warent forgiveness) but I would still keep the DPS alive unless they chose poorly.
@@Uwawa96 they were a party and sided with him completely
I hit sprint when the tank hits sprint. They stop, I stop; they go, I go. Cuz manners 😌
An excellent way to make sure everyone gets comfortably through the duty! 😀
when my friend got into the game he started as tank i play AST and every dungeon was me telling him "keep pulling dont stop until u drop" and it worked (im not being mean were both asshole optimizers who cant enjoy a game casually)
The closing words; "Try and challenge yourself" have been my mantra for a long time on "those" runs. It's wise advice.
Loops back on game theory. When you shirk you incentivize everyone else to shirk as well because if they don't they're just being a sucker.
Still, within a roulette scenario tanks have the most responsibility in the group. Pulling and pacing are a part of the tank's job, while being considerate of healer resources, are their job because both are components of protecting the party. Since it's their responsibility it is their choice, everyone else's choice is whether the terms work for the run they want, or to leave the dungeon and wait for a different tank.
Raids, trials and prog content is different.
I occasionally get tanks in expert roulettes that refuse to use any mitigations - "it's the healers job to keep me alive" - , but still pull wall-to-wall. Since they also tend to have worse gear, of course they end up dying before the healer even has the chance to react (seen them drop from 100-0 in less than 2 seconds). So yeah, friendly reminder to use mits, or if you can't be bothered or don't know about it, ask or only pull as much as you can manage.
Just a few days ago It was my first time tanking in low level dungeon and our healer inmediatly went all like "I WANT YOU TO PULL ALL OF THEM, PULL LIKE A BITCH, KEEP PULLING, YOU ATACK AND KEEP GOING" and honestly I don't know if it was half joke or not but It felt terrible and I had a lot of pressure, they just stopped when a friend told them I was a beginner, but then they started pushing again and repeating "I'll keep you alive" but end up picking all the mobs for me pushing a lot and getting ahead. Clearly our commendation was not for them, tank anxiety is a thing and that didn't helped much hahah.
I do that to all new tanks, but with a bit less pressure. A little zap rather than a cattle prod. Try pulling more than one pack... good good, now do MORE... MOOOOOOORE!!! BE NOT AFRAID YOUNG ONE YOU WILL LEARN TODAY!!! *foams at the mouth*
There is 0 reason to feel tank anxiety when that happens. If a healer tells you to pull everything and you die. It's not your fault you're just following orders.
i’ve gotten complements for using mitigation on pulls i think need it and that just shows how bad a position tanking is in where multiple healers expect tanks to not mitigate
Reminds me of doing The Heroes Gauntlet back when it was current content, and the AST gave me a lot of praise for adjusting to be in their Earthly Star during a pull. Which baffled me at the time since it's both their strong AOE heal and AOE damage.
I was in Haukke Manor at one point and interrupted one of the Handmaidens and got a surprised 'Oh, you're a GOOD tank..." from a DPS. Like... if I CAN interrupt a move that's going to put a stun on me, I'm going to do it. Granted, for a very long time I thought my only option was to run out of the marker zone and then back in, but still...
Reminds me of one of my runs when I was levelling DRK. I hadn't read TBN, and was running Heroes Gauntlet with a WHM who was struggling to keep up with heals. After I saved myself from dying with a Living Dead he asked me "Any reason you're not using TBN?". Had to google what TBN was on my other monitor really quickly, answered "because I'm dumb and hadn't read what it does". Starting on the next pull I used it basically on cooldown, the healer had a way easier time healing me, and I became a better tank, and we had a couple back-and-forth jokes in chat. Even though I was unambiguously doing something wrong there the fact the WHM wasn't immediately hostile lead to a better outcome for both of us. If he'd immediately called me a crap tank (even though that honestly was a correct assessment of how I was playing), I would've not known what they were talking about and probably gotten defensive enough I wouldn't have listened to any advice they gave me.
As a healer main who dabbles in tank from time to time, the thing that irks me the most is people don't take the time to learn what their actions actually do and then refuse to take any sort of advice. This is specifically in regards to tanks not knowing what how their different mitigations and invulns work and healers who for whatever reason refuse to use oGCDs. If I had a nickle for every DRK who used Living Dead at 95% hp, I'd probably be the richest man in the world.
I have to wonder if some tanks put every mitigation on a macro so it just cycles through them all.
@@fluffyfang4213 hey thats a good idea, lemme steal it
This might be bad but the only times I don't heal or revive someone is when they die so much they aren't even worth spending swiftcast on. However if it is a sprout I will do everything in my power to keep them alive and revive them no matter how many times it takes.
As a tank main, sometimes I accidentally pull packs when I'm in anything *not* tank... 😅
Muscle memory goes brrr
Me running ahead of the party, "wait a second, I'm not a tank"
I am growing tanks and recently I had a party where the healer and one of the DPS were behaving weirdly. The healer would just heal but incompletely and would rescue me randomly with no reason or explanation, despite me asking every time why they did that. I pulled less, naturally, because I didn't trust the healer and their bizarre behavior, but the DPS would go ahead and pull more. I did get the mobs off of them and as I reached the stopping point the healer stopped healing completely and let me die. Now, I absolutely agree that communication is very important. But what can you do when people straight up ignore you when you're trying to communicate?
I think your only option when players refuse to communicate and do something you don't want like that, is to report it. The alternative is of course to try and play around it to the best of your ability 😕
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Yeah, I did the latter. Thankfully it was Haukke so it only took about 15 minutes even with such a team.
I want to bring up that people should also be aware of themselves, asthey might become more of a problem in certain circumstances
I know for me, I tend to be more reckless and wanting to get through things faster when I'm exhausted.
There was a point where, during Satasha in the process of leveling DRG, I just started pulling things and bringing them to the tank. We did wipe, and I was (justly) called out for it, but I didn’t really take it to heart until several days later, when I realized that I was lacking sleep and have been leveling LNC/DRG for several hours by that point, and was just so dang tired of the queue times. Ever since, I've been more mindful of my wakefulness and how I'm acting as a DPS.
Very true! Being considerate to your team and how they feel is actually a huge part of it all. Some have already mentioned that ninja pulling isn't always a bad thing. After all, you were helping! You pulled mobs to the tank. But without communicating, it might be against the groups wishes. This can be harder to know in a low level dungeon with more open corridors of course!
I think it sounds like you walked away from that situation having learned something special though, so I think that's a win!
With a couple of my other friends we had the worst possible luck with Healers and Tanks in some instances, it can be iffy but when you get a combo of them in a duty it can be painful. I had the chrysalis in trials roulette where one of the tanks announced "I'm a bad Tank XD" who then proceeded to not cooperate with my Tank friend the entire instance using no cooldowns with his stance constantly on. It felt like he was doing it intentionally because he turned it off after my friend did a couple times. Fortunately both Healers dealt with this by only healing him, not walking into any of the orbs & not doing any DPS to then blame the DPS for killing themselves to the mechanics
I usually leave that trial so so so many peeps mess up the final phase. Hardest trial in the game
It's more of a problem in the first few alliance raids due to encounter design, but tanks who decide that *they* have to be the main tank for the alliance and provoke on cooldown cause a lot of problems if there's more than one of them. Bosses spinning to face a new person or worse, running across the room, makes the experience not fun for basically anyone else
This is a very nuanced topic. In my book, the only irredeemable bad actors are YPYT tanks and god complex healers, since they invariably make the experience worse for everyone in the party. Bonus points if it's a premade party doing both of those things to assert their dominance over puny DPS players.
On the topic of ninja pulling, it heavily depends on how it's done. If it's less "ninja" and more just "puller" (as in, they're not trying to hide the fact they want to go fast and they're just making the run more efficient), then I'm fine with it. If it's a melee or ranged physical pulling with Arm's Length, that's free mitigation and I'll comm them after the run. If it's a Sage, that's also good for the group, since they pull with shields on themselves to gain another charge of Toxikon, which is a big DPS gain in trash pulls (and they're the healer, so they can take care of themselves if necessary). As long as they bring it to the tank, it's all good!
If I'm the tank, I'll typically throw Nascent Flash or Heart of Corundum their way and they'll be fine while I grab aggro on everything. Teamwork makes the dream work!
I only get mad at ninja pullers if they pull and then run away with the mob to try and solo it or god forbid actually keep running away with the mob until they die. Don't be shy, bring it to the blender!
I think I would get along with you. I can think of a couple of dungeons here and there where it's more efficient to have other people pull the mobs to the tank because the enemies all spawn really spread out, like Cutter's Cry when the second wave of ants spawn in the first two rooms. Or boss fights where adds spawn far away from the boss. DPS who know what they are doing can help with round ups and the Smiths training content actually teaches you to intercept such small packs during boss fights, especially if they are making for your healer. Grab it, and run it to the tank so tank doesn't have to leave positionals.
Found the DPS-only player
@@samthorne3765 since when does a DPS have Nascent Flash and HoC to throw on another DPS?
I have also seen a healer using rescue to drag a tank along faster and then complaining when we wiped, until the tank got fed up and left. Please, just be nice to each other and don't force someone to play your way if they don't feel like they can keep up. It was a level 50 dungeon and tank was a sprout iirc.
I had that experience aswell. Was tanking and got dragged all over the place before I could even pull aggro from severall mobs that the HEAL attracted first even in front of any dps and me. That was really annoying.
"running around and dancing isn't in the healer role" We all know heals are stronger when jumping around between cast times... and snacking to refill aether... healing takes a lot of energy!
*jumps up and down in scholar spamming art of war and melee in MSQ roulette* The fairy's got this run.
@@rodicow3491 And got to put aside time to pet your carbuncle, cute carby fights well and needs lots of pets.
I hard disagree on it being a group choice of being a group choice on the pace. To put it simply, if the tank dies then its most likely the healer dies, when the healer dies the DPS die. If the tank is new and is unsure of themselves I much rather have them pull light then to put them through extra stress. It is not my place as a DPS to force them out of their comfort zone. If they want to pull w2w and the healer can support them, good! The next person who gets a choice is the healer, once again if the healer is unsure then as a tank you should pull less. If they are wanting to pull w2w and the tank can do it, awesome. The healer should NOT rescue a tank into the next group if said tank is uncertain (See pervious point.) (5:13) Yes it is a problem, because again the tank dies, the rest of the party dies. It does not matter if the DPS and the Healer think they can compensate, if the tank dies they will get blamed.
Oh I should probably clarify then. I'm not saying the speedrunner dps turbo man gets to choose either. The point about it being a group decision is more that, just because the tank doesn't want to pull big, shouldn't mean that everyone else's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. That is ultimately what I meant, although I suppose I went a bit too fast there 😅
To give an example... If the tank says they would prefer pulling one pack at a time, but the healer then suggests pulling big anyway because they know they can take care of the difference in skill between them. Then the healer has already stated they can do it, and the tank literally said the opposite, so if the tank gets blamed then, then the group is absurd of course 😅
Similarly, if the dps players are impressive enough, you can sometimes get by with a tank that isn't entirely sure on the defensives, and a healer just spamming cure, because the dps can clear the pack before that becomes a problem.
But the point is that people tend to not discuss these things in the first place. The point was more that the tank doesn't get defacto exclusive rights to decide, and at least the rest of the group should also have some part in the decision. The tank and healer should also probably weigh more in the discussion 😊
I once had a run of lapis Manalis where I sprinted and the tank didn't so I dotted up enemies first, it's not an issue because I know how to tank so I just stack with the tank and he gets aggro no issue.
Then he proceeds to not proceed to the next packs. Instead crying in chat. Me and my friend ended up duo-ing from 2nd to 3rd boss on reaper and scholar still wall to wall pulling without a tank. Then we duod the boss. Obviously we couldn't kick cus they were intentionally not rolling on loot, such a terrible stante
I remember once getting in cutter's cry as a healer and found out part way through the lancer had level 1 glamor pieces on their chest and legs....
There wasn't any saving them by the end, they were dying to unavoidable damage.
I've been playing as a tank recently with PLD and I'm loving it. My experiences are people being more than nice, specially when I tell them it's my first time tanking in the dungeon.
Particularly, with Brayflox's Longstop I had a ninja (fittingly enough) ninja pulling to show me the way when they realized I did not know the way. He'd type in the chat "Over here boss". Can't get angry at that 😄
Most dungeons are around 15 Minutes, so I never understood why people create so much drama in those short timespans. I'll always adjust to every weird thing happening during dungeons/trials and usually don't care about it and simply focus on completing the duty - no need for Drama and the dury will be over more quickly.
Well i'm in a kind of priviliged situation since I'm also a tank main, but for example, if someone pulls ahead of me, I simply stick as close as possible to that person for the rest of the dungeon or move ahead just seconds before the last enemy dies, so I'll be in front of that person. I would never imagine letting someone die or "teach them a lesson" because of things like that but I do know a lot of people with such a mindset and it always baffles me.
Other example: If a healer is struggling with healing during my big pulls, I just start using Clemency or something similar, doesn't matter to me if it's a dps loss in that situation, I want to help out my healer while also being able to continue with the big pulls, since they're so common anyways it's better imo to simply help out the healer instead of pulling less so they can get comfortable with the situation. But in case something like clemency isn't available and most mitigation is on cooldown, then of course I will only pull as much as the group can handle, so I won't force big pulls and potential deaths just out of stubborness or again "teaching the healer a lesson" if I know there is a possibility to wipe, it's just bad behaviour.
For me it's all about adjusting instead of following a strict formular in this kind of content.
Sometimes you just get really weird people but know what? Try out to simply roll with it and adjust instead of argueing about their behaviour, usually those runs turn out to be a lot of fun and can be weirdly satisfying at least that's my experience and that's also the advice I can give for those situations :D
Same here WAR main the ypyt is just wasting a groups time cool now you taught that guy a lesson now its going to take longer to complete the dungeon wasting everyone's time just adjust or communicate its not rocket science
Right. To me, part of being a tank *especially* is one of literally rolling with the punches. You have the mitigation, so roll with it. Not being petty is definitely to your benefit in the end.
The tanks job is to manage and maintain aggro, not to pull especially in dungeons. Ninjapulling is only ever an issue when they are obviously overpulling in rare instances like Mt. Gulg where you can really pull a lot more than usual (though even that can be w2w easily if you know what you are doing). I say this as someone who mainly plays tank in duty roulette, ninjapulling is not problem behavior at all. It is also usually easier instead of harder for the tank to grab all the aggro back because they get piled up, again it being much rarer that they pile up awkwardly.
It sort of depends on the situation. Ninja pulling can be entirely beneficial if the ninja puller is helping the tank. But sometimes that is not the case.
In fact to your mt. Gulg example, having the dps tank a bit while you do the mega pull itself can be helpful! It is all about intent, and how you do it, whether it is detrimental, or beneficial I think! 😊
Or you could just do your job.
This is the way. Someone going ahead to pull is one of the most beneficial things in an expert dungeon run, and you will certainly get a comm from me, as tank.
In the end, there are no nuances. Just hurt egos. Keep moving and pushing buttons, and everything will be fine.
Unfortunately, folk are keenly aware of the snowflakes in the game that will gladly let them die. It's a sad set of affairs.
fellow tank here, completely agree. it is not that serious. with tank stance you will get aggro back with one, MAYBE two AoEs, and even then, a dps taking some chip damage while you're grabbing aggro is not the end of the world. ESPECIALLY when you're synced up enough to use nascent flash/cover/tbn/oblation/HoC/aurora/etc on them.
You know gets me, people that stop fighting mobs/boss to stand at the exit of the room until they're able to move to the next spot. It's annoying in dungeons and especially alliance raids where you see a group of people standing there and doing nothing while there is still fighting going on because of the "Me first" mentality.
Oh that one is especially funny when everyone does it.
I recall a Case in syrcus tower where nearly everyone forgot about the adds that spawn behind you at some point. So like 21 players just stood dumbfounded looking at the door that refused to open! 😂
Sometimes I get it in dungeons if you know you can ranged attack the remaining single mob or something without wasting time. But that is quite specific!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh 🤣That's so true. I agree 100%! Syrcus tower always gets people. It's actually great when some of them realize and start scampering back to the fight. 😂
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I know exactly which spot you're talking about. There's a pile of Doga and Unei clones spawning behind and everyone but 3 people are staring at the barrier like a bunch of nerds, LOL
@@laerwenI usually try to clean everything up but sometimes muscle memory just tells me to *RUUUUN*😂
I had so much anxiety about being a tank at first because of people who would constantly pull for me, even after I stated I would like to go slow since I was learning. I still don't care to tank as much, but i've gotten a little more comfortable doing it.
unfortunately many people have the idea that the only way to get use to tanking w2w pulls is essentially immersion therapy. force them into it and show them itll be okay. the problem is the new tank learns nothing of use from that as they likely didnt cd cycle correctly, or started kitchen sinking their mits in fear.
If I'm playing tank and I see others pulling ahead of me I am thankful. Your health bars are free mitigation, you also get extra love from me plus a free dinner at a class restaurant if you are a melee/ranged DPS and you pop Arms Length and bring back the mobs pre-slowed. (Of course I only advocate for non-tank pulling if it is already established we are going wall to wall - in that case if you do pull in front of the tank they were going to grab those mobs in a second anyway).
But please make sure you run back to the tank... I ain't chasing you all over the dungeon to save your rear (I mean, I will... I just won't like it :P)
Free mitigation, truly a wise and enlightened way to think of it
My opinion about dungeon pace is that the group moves as fast as the tank or healer is comfortable pulling, whichever is slower. Wall-to-walls can be stressful for new or returning tanks/healers, so taking it slower until they build up their confidence is beneficial for everyone.
Don't forget there are a couple dungeons that are so perfectly placed levelwise that it's extremely difficult for the healer to support WtW pulling (even if the healer is skilled) due to a few different reasons, 1 being them being a barrier healer, I myself am a Sage Main and 1 dungeon I have extreme difficulty healing in is Dohn Mheg, when the tank WtW pulls even when I am heal spamming it is not enough because my Heal output is not as good as a WHM, and when I throw up the barriers the tanks hp drops farther than if I was just heal spamming
My worst dungeon experience to date almost made me fall into the YPYT mindset for a while. (I did always provoke after letting the puller take a few hits lol.) Happened when I was still pretty new to tanking. The party had a BRD that immediately ran ahead and pulled the first mob. I took the aggro from them. Wasn't a big deal over all... until the healer decided to only heal the BRD, and not me. So I died to the first mob, and while I respawned the BRD and healer ran ahead to the next mob and pulled that as well. (Other DPS was my friend, who waited for me.) Tried talking to those two, but the BRD just told me I don't pay their sub and the healer, iirc, did not say anything at all. So me and my friend just left after a couple minutes of that mess. Didn't want to deal with it. So anyway, I stopped tanking for a little bit after that, but got back into it and (fortunately) never encountered players like that again. Started to trust healers again and don't get anxious about Ninjapulls anymore (annoying as they can be sometimes) lol. All's well that ends well, but thinking about that time still makes me mad.
Damn, that sucks. My worst one was me and my sister playing DPS characters, doing Brayflox Longstop story mode with a level 31 Gladiator, who refused to go Paladin, and we kept dying to the mobs and the first boss because he didn't have a lot of what he needed (IIRC, this was also before they got tank stance at 10, and instead got it with the job) Eventually my sister and I had enough arguing with the guy and dying to stuff we shouldn't be dying to, so we left.
A DPS pulling slightly ahead is mostly fine to me. Certain fights I don't like to W2W because it's faster to not do that in certain dungeons. Otherwise? If you pull it, just bring it to me, your health bar is just more mitigation for me.
Maybe it's just me but as a healer I don't enjoy wall to walls for every dungeon. It's mostly fine but other times it can be quite stressful ^^ like there's some dungeons where half a wall pull does a hefty amount of damage and a full pull means I'm basically a heal bot unable to dps because the mobs are bringing the tank below half each time they hit. (I think that's slower)
At least when I'm tank I remember those dungeons with tricky pulls and will ease into it first before picking up the pace. I don't mind going faster if people can handle it though.
if the pull is big enough you are forced to only heal, and you manage fine without a wipe or any deaths, then its the perfect amount of enemies! your party is still dealing massively more damage because of the higher enemy count!
@@tabs5941 That's less dps over all so wouldn't that in theory take longer than just simply doing half pulls?
Granted I'm talking about like 5% of dungeons that actually have hard hitting mobs.
Sometimes a full wall to wall can result in wipes specially if the tank doesn't mitigate properly.
Something else that comes to mind is when the tank died, I got aggro, died, and the healer saw fit to not rez me even after getting the situation under control. That was annoying. I fought as much as the tank pulled and did my rotation, ended up as second target and died for that. All I can say is that it took me a while to find my sprint button to return to the group.
Something else that's really just bad behavior is not using your mitigations or self healing as a tank and forcing it all onto the healer, then complaining that the healer is trash when they struggle keeping the group alive or at least need to heal way more and the dungeon takes much longer.
Another potential problem of YPYT is that the new tank might run to Narnia if the DPS doesn't trust the healer or the healer doesn't trust the rest of the group, possibly making everyone wipe in the process or delaying the dungeon a lot. Couldn't blame them.
Oh yeah, the tank that refuses to use defensives to "make the healer do their job"? Oh they're fun, I count those as tank god complex too 😂
That particular story you mentioned: there is a possibility the healer didn't seem to have time to raise, or deemed it was better for you to run back. But as you say, there's also the possibility they just didn't want to raise you because you had the audacity to get aggro (when the tank was dead 😂)
It's always fun how when people start to intentionally make mistakes, it can be difficult to play the game at all! 😕
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh, yeah, that could be considered tank god complex, true. This made me stop play healer for a while, which is a shame. I like all 3 roles, but after encountering too many of these tanks, I changed to greedy DPS with absolutely no group healing/rezzing for a while. It was just no longer my problem.
Oh, they had time, the situation was under control, they chose not to, for whatever reason.
I find it troublesome if the tank and/or intentionally fail. Makes it much harder for everyone. If a DPS does it, they might die, but the group will be fine and the healer can rez them when the situation allows it.
"and the healer saw fit to not rez me even after getting the situation under control." i sometimes play as a healer and stuff like that sometimes happen i can tell you "don't take it to peronaly". You use your swiftcast to rez tank and that's it. Rez have a few sec casttime and you may just don't having time to do this.
A healer can only swift cast rez every 60 seconds, and rez has an 8 second cast time without swiftcast. 8 seconds is a loooong time if the tank is getting pounded on or there's aoe to dodge. They likely used swiftcast to get the tank up, and may not have felt it was safe or efficient to stand around effectively doing nothing for 8 seconds to get you back up. It is often not a risk worth taking. If we're still fighting when swiftcast comes back up, I'll throw you a rez. Otherwise, you can leg it back, especially if we're close to a shortcut. Saves you the rez debuff, too.
perhaps they didn't want you to get damage down :)
The amount of people (tank players especially) outing themselves in this comment section as the exact thing you're describing (and still thinking they're in the right???) is crazy. Tanks shirking healers who "aren't healing enough" and DPS who pull ahead and even bring the mobs to you?? YPYT is always unacceptable, end of discussion.
Just hit the bad guys and use your mitigation, it isn't that hard or that serious, people.
Some serious "I'm the main character and you all have to cater to how i want to play" energy going on. Re-evaluate how you play a multiplayer game please. Sometimes you'll have to go a little out of your comfort zone and that is okay! It is how you learn and get better at the game. Be better players and better people.
Tell us how you really feel about tanks
That is actually a pretty interesting point! I feel some of them at least give a specific example where it is closer to "okay", but I honestly stick to my guns on the subject of "don't be the punisher. Play right, and then you can always report is someone is being a dummy" 😊 ypyt just isn't helping anyone!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh The whole idea of "punishing" them for pulling .5 seconds before you or pulling more mobs than you were intending just doesn't make sense. You aren't just punishing them, you're punishing the entire group, the healer and yourself especially.
Now the pull will take longer and you all have to use more tools to make it through. It's really just a baffling mindset to me.
Plus it's just a rude thing to do 😅 don't be rude people
@@one_eyeddd473 Oh I love tanking, love tank players who play well as part of the group and even love helping new tanks to learn. It's only the tanks who think the world revolves around them because they have more health and a few damage mitigations that I can't stand.
It's just a weird mindset to me. It's a team game where we all have our roles to play, and those roles are pretty simple: we all do damage, the DPS do more and the tank and healer keep everyone alive in their own way. That's it, beat the bad guys together and try to get along while you do it.
@@zackdunbar4962 as tanking main, I prefer to see myself less of a "leader" and more "I am here to make enemies look at me, they better look at me >:C" while everyone else carve their arses.
I think the most annoying thing to me is DPS that appears to be *trying* to mess up every pull by hitting whichever enemy the tank did not hit with their preferred pull method. It's just...exhausting to deal with as a tank, and irritating to witness as a healer. (I don't notice when I play dps cause I'm focused on making sure I'm punching whichever thing the tank has already hit). These are thankfully extremely rare, they just stick in my head really well because the kind chaos and exhaustion it causes isn't even fun to work around/through, like certain other kinds of challenges.
One thing I love to see in tanks at low level is the ones that try to play at the level of their party. Like if they can see that half the party are the greenest a sprout can possibly be, they play a little bit chiller, but still keep up a good speed. Gently teaching the sprouts about dungeon pacing without singing "Welcome to the Jungle" while throwing them off a cliffside.
press demon slice
Ive only recently started my FF14 Journey and am going it as a Marauder. Watching these videos of yours is helping me avoid bad behavior while also letting me know what to expect when i encounter different jobs/roles in my journey.
That is a good way to view it!
Remember that it is also okay to not pull lots of mobs if you are not feeling confident! The important part is friendly communication! 😄
As a WHM main the idea of a healer not healing (the thing in their role description) because they don't want to in any instance is wild to me lol
Oh, I have a very strong tendency towards Glare Magery and being a Blood Lily kinda White Mage, but in order to even GET the Blood Lily, I need to at least throw out some aoe heals now and again. My problem is that I sometimes get "DPS Blinders" and forget to check the party's condition. At least I learned how to use Bene so that's saved some runs. It's never intentional, it's always accidental, and I always feel awful about it.
@@maracaegrizzley8734 whenever i play astro i sometimes get so distracted by the cards and gravity spam that i forget to check the tank's hp and have to scramble to throw essential dignity and spam benefic II to save the pull. it's just so fun pressing the same one button and seeing pretty animation!
I had a Stone Vigil run where it was first time really tanking with DRK. I wasn't used to the rotation, DRK has limited tools, and my Healer was rusty, so I didn't w2w.
Well the BLM didn't like that, and said "You know you can pull more than 3 packs at once".
-Very passive aggressive phrasing, instead you should ask why the tank isn't doing W2W.
So my friend(the healer) kindly explained that I wasn't very familiar with DRK and wasn't comfortable doing the pretty rough W2W in Stone Vigil.
Well the BLM didn't like that, and said something to the effect of "I don't want to be in here for an hour, pull more."
-You want more pulls, queue as Tank. Don't be passive aggressive because the run isn't going fast enough, then rude when it's explained to you why.
So I said "No, I will die and then it will take even longer."
Well the BLM didn't like that, so after the first boss when I stopped at about 50% pulls, he ran ahead and pulled more and brought them back.
-Predictably, I died near the end of the pull, and the Healer clutched. BLM didn't say anything.
So after the second boss, he did it again.
-This time, I purposely aggroed everything except the Ice Sprites that were on him and let him die. My friend thanked him for taking a bit of the aggro off of me.
We then completed the dungeon and I got the comm from the other DPS, who was very nice and understanding when it was explained why I wasn't doing W2W.
My whole point with telling this story is that dungeons are casual content, and there could be a dozen different reasons for someone to want to take it a bit slower. If you take casual group content so seriously, you're only going to upset yourself.
On ninjapulling i’m only a sprout but i had an early on issue where our puligist just decided to pull all enemies in the first dungeons last room. I stood there as we were fighting a smaller group and bro just ran back with a bucketload of enemies. That was a moment where i literally was like oh no why why why.
I only remember one time i acidentally ninja pulled. I was playing healer and the next monster group was closer thsn i expected so i was slightly further behind the tank and ended up pulling the next group by accident.
As a still new (end of ARR) player and currently hard Healer main, I've had enough situations where I either barely managed to keep the Tank alive through a W2W, or (on blessedly rare occasions, mostly first times) *didn't* manage to keep them alive and we wiped, that on the occasions I try to tank I tend to wind up too nervous to do more than 1-3 pack pulls ^.^; Haven't had anyone get angry about it yet, fortunately, but seeing other tanks in action it also makes me nervous that someone will.
My general advice is that two packs at a time is just fine. Sure there are dungeons where it is possible to do more, but that's just to say that you should be perfectly fine pulling 1-3 packs at a time 😊 the even bigger ones might come with more practice!
As someone with a 90 on each class my thoughts:
When I'm the tank: Lucy Pyre's guide to tanking might be a shitpost, but also contains literally 90% what you need to know. Be faster. Get that sweet 20 second sprint buff and leave dps in the dust, rotate your defensive cooldowns and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD USE YOUR AOE ROTATION. And don't forget arm's length. Be the ultimate ungabunga and solo the dungeon if you have to. As a warrior, I know I can (if I'm level 56 or higher). As a war main, I'm the healer now. I guess have both the healer and tank god complex at the same time so boo me >.>. The only acceptable pace is full frickin throttle.
As a healer: If the tank ain't pulling, I am I guess but I'm also dying inside as end up queued with the dark knights who refuse to use shadow wall the entire run and only use rampart on boss fights. And not for tankbusters. I feel at times I can genuinely heal myself or a melee dps using bloodbath better if the tank can't perform. With sage as my favorite healer I can even eat tankbusters if I have to. I might also decide you're cheaper to rez at 3 vuln stacks than babyshit you as you try to collect 5-6. >.>
As DPS: This is a vacation, spam aoe go brrr don't stand in the orange collect free loot.
she says what others are afraid to tbh its a breath of fresh air even if I find the rest of her whole shtick annoying lol
The tragedy of both the god complex healer and ypyt is that if you pull that move in a level 90 dungeon you are liable to have the rest of the group call your bluff and do the dungeon without you
Yes, at level 90 an attentive party with a warrior (potentially other tanks too) can clear dungeons without a healer
Scholar (and again, likely other healers) can SOLO specific dungeons, though it is excruciatingly slow
Please be especially careful when ascribing blame in dungeons. If you die in a dungeon as a warrior at level 90 it is your fault, 100%, every time. The same is almost universally true for healers.
If you die of boredom however then it might be time to point fingers at the tank not w2w'ing or the white mage spamming cure 1 (or the red mage not using melee abilities, etc)
sadly this is why I only queue into a dungeon with randoms if me or a friend is playing a tank (not drk lol) so you can do the duty normally and not get interrupted by some healer trying to throw for no fucking reason.
Deciding dungeon pace is exactly the tank's job... If you come from WoW. In reality, the dungeon pace is set by the healer. A good healer makes me more confident in doing crazier pulls, because when i run out of defensives, i know they got me.
But if you're a dps and you're pepega plunging ahead of me into every pack and boss, i will let you die before i take agro. Rezing only takes 3 seconds.
the dungeon pace is set by how quick shit dies. thats up to everyone but the dps more than anyone else.
@@tabs5941 in broad strokes it's everyone... but i specifically point to the healer, coz if i pull wall to wall, pop all me CDs and immediately explode, that's the healer. if i pull 2 packs and am struggling, that's the healer. i can only pull at pace the healer dictates, thus, the healer sets the pace
As a SCH main I don’t care what classes I play, I will always let the healer set the pace. I ask what they’re comfortable with and then do that. I try to teach where I can if they’re new since I am a healer main and if I know there’s tricky mechanics I’ll double check everyone knows. Like Aurum Vale. Fuck that place but I still practiced the shit out of it so I could help sprouts when I have to do it. It also helps my current partner mainly tanks for me if I wanna heal these days so he knows my healing style.
I was doing a random Vault run as a healer, with a tank friend. I was pretty new, so I died to one of the mechanics. This was back in like HW. No problem, there's a summoner, they can rez. Except they don't. So we wipe, and I remind them politely that they have a raise, and they could have saved the boss attempt. In response, the DPS both vote to kick me. Of course, my friend's really upset at them, so they leave. So the two toxic DPS are stuck at the first boss of the dungeon, with no tank or healer. They might as well quit and suffer through the DPS queue again. If I had wanted to, I could have added insult to injury and also reported them, but I just let them enjoy the instant karma.
You know, I don't even play a tank, I'm a DPS main and heal secondary, and it's always been that way for me, but I still think YPYT is kind of right, sorry. At the end of the day, I get it's all about mutual respect, and no one is God of the Dungeon over anyone else, but in my mind, the tank is the boss and that's okay with me. I want them to be comfortable. They're the ones who have to hold the enemies and try not to die. It makes sense that they should lead the charge and set the pace. If anything, I'd like the healer and tank to talk it out, but as someone who is almost always dps, I'm just there to be the muscle and follow their lead. If I wanted to be a tank, I could. I firmly feel that DPS running ahead and repeatedly intentionally pulling shit the tank didnt pull is several orders of magnitude more disrespectful than the tank essentially saying, "okay, if that's what you want to do, you take it."
It's just, look, I've been playing this game for 10 years now, and in the beginning, when the community was small, everyone was SUPER nice. You never, EVER saw a DPS intentionally run ahead of a tank to pull shit the tank didn't. EVER. People understood their roles and followed them. I didn't start seeing DPS completely disregarding the roles and doing whatever they wanted until the WoW exodus happened around just before Endwalker. Suddenly, there were DPS who would literally just take off at a full sprint the micro-second the circle gate dropped, and leave every other person on the team in the dust while they frantically attack everything in sight. It's stupid. It gets people killed. I've seen that shit wipe parties WAY more than any of the other issues on this list. I dont think its okay for tanks to grief DPS that are like this by letting them die, but if you're not the tank, dont pull. If you wanna go faster, just talk about it!
There's only one default speed and that is max speed. Unless a severe skill issue prohibits that (which, hey. It's fine, we all gotta start somewhere), expecting a tank to go slow by default is like giving Usain Bolt a cane or taking away a soldier's caffeine. It goes entirely against their raison d'être.
If I am tanking, and I miss a pack, I WANT people to ninja pull to non-verbally communicate to me "Hey dipshit. You missed one". If the tank isn't trying to make things go fast, you might as well have queued in as a triple DPS + Healer.
However, the real kick in the bollocks is that the FF community is on average more afraid to hurt other people's feelings than most communities that it allows bad habits and bad behaviour to fester like an infectious wound. You almost never can give constructive criticism without most people taking personal offense to it and getting their knickers in a twist. No matter the amount of sugarcoating.
You end up with absolutely dumbass tanks by level 80 because they've been overcoddled and everyone is afraid to give advice.
We all need to be more willing to take, AND give advice.
Remember, "you're doing a terrible job" isn't inherently a personal attack. It can just as well be a statement of fact when supported by actual arguments.
Agreed completely, hell using proper mitigation planning, both Warrior AND Paladin don't need healing nearly at all during most level 90 dungeon pulls just due to their insane self heals.
I cringe every time i see a medica 2 + regen spamming whm who has yet to cast a single aura veil, their shield, assize, and most of all holy, the spells that would actually provide decent mitigation AND damage in their kit.
Not only that but their massive overhealing messes with my timing of my Warrior mits so i'm *more* likely to die as a war due to lack of party damage because of their missuse of their class...
@@Trib273 I like to think I'm decent at WHM, but Regen is still the go-to choice of heal spell even amid my Holy spam. Gives me time to throw down 2 oGCDs (definitely Assize if off cooldown). Problem is that Holy takes the full 2.5 seconds to cast so even oGCDs cause clipping. I usually don't end up using Aquaveil, Devine Benison, Tetra, Bene, etc unless the pull has gone on way too long and I start using Lillies to heal. Optimally, I use the Lillies between pulls and a whimsical superfluous splattering of oGCDs between Dias as the tank pulls.
On the other hand, yeah, if they aren't casting Holy, it's practically begging the tank and themselves to run out of resources. What else are they even doing if they already have Regen and even Medica II going?
@@fluffyfang4213 using regen during the trash pull is alright cuz you're running anyways and you htime to dot all the enemies and place a regen before planting yourself and holy'ing, i'm more or less talking about the folk who let neither fall off, and so they soend their time waiting for hp to drop and those cooldowns to fall off to reset them
@@Trib273paladin does in many dungs
its still more damage to just clip assize but I do wish holy was a short cast like the rest of our kit so we could use our already few ogcds :( @@fluffyfang4213
I mostly agree, but when a ninja puller refuses to stop despite being asked to and told that the tank or healer is new, I think it is entirely justified to refuse to tank or heal for them and let them die repeatedly until they cut it out.
If I tank, I don't have an attitude. I just want the dungeon done. Sometimes I need to hold in my frustration in some runs that said.
"You pull you tank" is soooo cringe
The only bad experience I’ve had with the game so far was getting yelled at in Shisui of the Violet Tides, I didn’t watch a guide cause I thought it would just be a steamroll (and it was) but I still messed up two mechanics and all the healer said was “the water” then proceeded to rail off on me. How was I supposed to tell what “the water” meant, the whole damn dungeon is underwater. It’s simply unavoidable with all the WoW and Moba players.
I'm actually surprised it was a WoW player, the ones I've encountered have been super chill. Moba players though? Yikes, I avoid those people like the plague since I have friends who play Smite and that game turns them into fiends when they do play.
Only time I get angry is in Crystalline Conflict, but it's mainly just me mocking myself for my stupidity. Occasionally I'll vent to myself about my teammates not pushing the crystal alongside me but I never lash out in game at people
Was tanking a dungeon- the healer decided I wasn’t pulling fast enough and would USE RESCUE TO DRAG ME AROUND. Then the bard would run ahead and bring me things like a cat bringing dead mice. They didn’t use the chat. I died so many times because there were just TO MANY and the healer WAS TOO FOCUSED ON DRAGGING ME AROUND
Just use the chat and I usually will pull more- I often pull half the floor because I play healer a lot and know a lot off different healers who don’t like a floor pull. The only time I’ll say no is if we were already having problems.
Weirdest experience ever. Never had before nor since a healer using Rescue to manipulate me around the field like that. Only had them ever use it to pull me out of an AOE or drag my body along.
Using rescue ability like that is griefing and reportable.
While w2w pulls are generally expected they shouldn't be required...especially if the Tank or Healer is just not ready for big pulls...especially the extreme megapulls. Mt.Gulg, Ala Migo, and Doma Castle come to mind.....
I still remember my third run through Mt. Gulg and at the start, I wasn't doing the big pulls. I pulled the first two groups and begun rolling Cooldowns.....and the mentor Sage healer just went forward without my knowing, pulling the next group. He runs past me with all of these extra enemies, and even though I was spamming AoE, I didn't pick up the aggro in time, and that healer died to Autos. He then went off on me, calling me a YPYT and abandoned the dungeon soon after....
I will admit to some level of "You pull it, You tank it" when I play as tank, but this is only for people who continue to run ahead of me and pull the mobs *after I have explicitely asked them to stop*. I will do my best to wall to wall, but if you keep going out of your way to pull before me, be the tank you want to see next time.
I know that may be wrong but I will at least check, I know it only punishes the healer, but after asking that they let me lead the pull as the tank (because I have damage reduction and mitigation abilities suited for getting hit). Worst I've done is tankbust a healer who practically refused to heal me though and that got me a warning.
I will say that as a tank main who's currently a DPS because my favourite tank is in a bad spot imo, the most annoying thing is a dps or healer that will intentionally pull for the tank. Pulling by accident? That's ok, bring it to the tank and it'll be fine. Pulling for the tank intentionally? I know some tanks don't have a problem with this. Pulling for the tank after being asked to stop? Now you've kinda crossed the line...
Indeed, as you said with your tank buster example, is exactly the reason why I am saying the better action on your end is to play right. Be the better person. And then report them after the fact. That way, they will be the ones getting a warning and not you. This applies universally 😊 but I do understand the frustration with the ninja pulling, absolutely!
In fact, you explicitly requesting that they stop, would actually give you a better position when reporting because you clearly made the person aware that you had a problem with their behavior, which is a crucial part of a report. 😊 But that falls to the floor if you do ypyt yourself. Just keep that in mind! 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Unfortunately I fall into the bracket of people where I can't be bothered to put in the effort to report someone who made 1 duty annoying when they're the minority. It's like, to report someone for making a 10 minute dungeon annoying let's spend 20 minutes navigating the menus and writing an essay when I could just finish the rest of my roulettes and go do something else XD
The whole video can be summed up by "Just pull"
Literally lol If youre tanking just wall to wall and 90% of parties will oeave that dungeon happy
I only notice issues when tanks pull one pack at a time
I'm new to tanking, and have only just made it to 90 on SMN while working my way through the story. When I started DRK, I had a PLD main friend on DPS guiding me through and making sure I knew tank etiquette. I was actually pretty discouraged by the number of people who expect you to know exactly what you're doing right from the start, even in regular dungeons. I think it's important to keep in mind that just because someone no longer has a sprout, doesn't mean they've been playing the game for 10 years. Have a little patience.
I very much agree with this. That's also why the important part is communicating. A lot of players don't get this and choose to get aggressive for whatever reason in either direction! 😅
I've learned that if I accidently pull something before the tank, the best thing you can do is run back to them with it. That way it is not only clustered up, but easy for them to pick up.
If you get a mob on you, don't run away, always take it to the tank. If they are struggling to pick it up right away, or don't notice right away, you can run a circle around the pack the tank already has to stay out of enemy melee range, but stay near tank aoe range.
Much as a healer can withhold heals from a tank who is being a butt, a tank can likewise shirk on a healer who is being a butt. Really though just makes headaches for all involved.
Legendary parties are those who remember that dps also have mitigating tools. The shock when I saw a ypyt tank watch a monk solo a pack using his tool kit and then kick the tank from party was chefs kiss lol.
What a Legend, what a True Gentleman and Gigga Chad, I deeply respect players who know their game, and show by pure power of skill wanabee hostage holders how purely optional they are.
Had a tank try to kill me in smileton the other day cause I was pulling whatever enters my range as MCH........ despite me literally being on top of them and having all the mobs come to us 😅 Unfortunately for them I main tank and actually know how to use Arms Length and mitigation to survive 🤣 They also did not say a word before straight trying to kill me 😛
See exactly! If you're standing on the tank, it isn't even a big problem if you accidentally pull something! 😂 That sounds like the quintessential ypyt tank you had right there. No warning even! 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiChwrong its forcing a play style on the tank ypyt is a good thing if you went to tank so bad then tank on your own
You were also misbehaving, though. If you were intentionally pulling shit the tank wasn't pulling, and doing it repeatedly and purposely, then you fall into the very first category of bad behavior. Even if YPYT isn't "right", neither is repeated ninjapulling. Whether you're a tank main or not makes no difference. The whole point of this video is to not make shit harder for other players. Not every tank is the best at having huge pulls.
@elvangulley3210 as ceres said, two wrongs don't make a right. It is simply better to do your part right, and then report after the duty, if the offending player refuses to communicate and cooperate. That way you also avoid any punishment, should someone in the duty decide to report your ypyt behavior. 😊(which could be a separate player and not the Ninja puller!)
@@CaetsuChaijiCh nah these people don't learn when you give in if they want to tank as dps or healer let them
I do YPYT if im playing as tank, and am watching a cutscene. you ignore my cutscene you die. as usually i take a drink or eat a snack during cutscenes.
i also use the arena border as a small ready sign, if ur in the walls of the arena withotu watching a cutscene ur ready to fight.
You know, fair. I do think most of the player base believes in letting people watch the cutscenes as well! 😂
I always communicate. As a healer main, I only pull extra if the tank is ok with it😊
For me, it's the sprout tank that has no levels on healers pulling wall to wall and are very stingy with their mitigation... I have my eyes on you TBN only DRKs. I have once burned all 3 aetherflow stacks, all pet abilities and spamming PHYSICK just to keep him alive.
Based on stories I've heard, them even using TBN is above the minimum performance... Which should be concerning! 😂
It is weirdly uncommon to meet drk and gnb that think they're dps, but maybe they chose the job because they look cool rather than the role 😅
Was it in Mt. Gulg?
I am a sprout tank... and play DRK but seriously I have only done wall to wall in lower ARR dungeons and that even very uncommonly. If I have ever queued with you and trouble you then I'm sorry.
@@keiken8263 Lol. Don't be sorry. Take it as a way to improve on your tanking.
@@reyjusufNot in particular. It can happen in every dungeon. It's just more prevalent on DRKs and GNB to some extent.. Almost never with PLD and (especially) WAR.
DPSing as a healer is such a goddamn chore, though. I am a new player, and just recently leveled my first healer to 50. It didn't even really occur to me that I shouldn't keep everyone topped off at all times, and when it did I got to DPSing. It is then that I realised how mind-numbingly boring it is to do damage as a healer in this game - I'd rather play a curebot and watch healthbars go green.
You know, I am sort of glad that new players realizing how healers work in that aspect also find it boring. Because to my knowledge many veteran players also despise how dull it is to spam one button while waiting for things to heal 😅 hopefully something more gets added in the next expansion 😕
I'll also add, as someone who has been leveling/playing Healers a bunch as of late (WHM 70-90, SCH 30-50, and SGE 90 soloing Alpha/Sigma/Delta raids), that yea, it really is boring
DoT enemies as you go, spam an AoE once everyone is grouped, heal when necessary to prevent the tank going down, repeat ad nauseum
I appreciate Sage for being so offensive in nature as a healer, but that doesn't change the one-button rotation it and other healers have; damage is a way of damage mitigation, which is a form of healing
I main AST which is supposedly the most involved healer job and it's still dull compared to playing any other class. It also takes mes forever to complete the story mode fights with the abysmally low dps. I sometimes switch to DNC for story content to make the fights go faster.
This is why I like AST so much. I really appreciate how it keeps me busy between damage and healing. The card meta is exactly what I needed.
you mean you rather do nothing? I agree that healing should be a lot more demanding than it currently is, but if you arent healing then you should be contributing elsewhere. balancing healing and max damage output is a really joyful experience when the content is proper balanced half decently.
This is a really timely video for me. I’m levelling paladin right now and I’ve basically only tanked in duty support so doing fast-paced roulettes with other people is hard. And also I have a steam deck with virtual keyboard so typing is really slow and I have to stop what I’m doing to say anything, which makes communication really difficult. I’ve tried to say I’m not comfortable with big pulls before the dungeon actually starts but I can only get out like four words in that time
I had a ninja puller a few days ago in duty roulette and I wanted to say something but I didn’t want to delay the party more while I typed it out, since I felt they were already impatient with me. I’ve heard of tanks using macros to put messages in chat though, I might try to make one to explain my communication barriers and difficulty going fast
I think your suggestion of making such a macro is a good idea. That would at least let you communicate that at the start.
You could also try making macros with other things you might say more frequently. Like if you deal with people pulling for you a lot, asking them to wait with a macro could be handy!
My most toxic behaviour so far was when i was playing white mage in a dungeon. I think it was the tomberry infested one, i forgot the name, anyways, i was playing SCH until then and having the fairy and shields made healing easy but when i decided to try WHM i was mixing up my heals, panick healing because of the wall to wall pull that i just could not react fast enough to and overall falling behind in the dun. The tank was a paladin and we were stuck in the second boss because i just couldn't heal fast or good enough. I got so embarassed and felt so bad that i was not doing my job properly that i just abandoned the dungeon and those guys behind. It's been months since that happened and i still feel bad for that.
I know how this feels and I would urge you that when you're ready to pick WHM up and try again. Take your time. Fiddle with your UI and keybinds if you need to. Heck, use the Duty Support system just to practice getting used to your abilities. How they work, when to use them, really learn them. That way when you're with human players, you've got more muscle memory under your belt. So much of healing is about decision making in the moment - you'll get it if you take your time!
@@laerwen Oh yeah, since then i picked up Sage and Gunbreaker as my mains.
this is why I strongly encourage people to not level too much with roulettes if they want to properly learn a job. whm has kind of a unique style compared to the other healers in a dungeon, its def worth learning somewhat linearly
So I agree entirely for the most part. The part where I 100% disagree with is where tank and healer get to decide the pace of the dungeon. I 1000% think the tank gets the majority of the say when pulling period, the healer second and the dps should just be happy they get to play dps. Tanks are literally the ones pulling, they choose the mits, ect. Healers are the ones who have to keep up the appropriate amount of healing so if they don't have the capacity for wall to wall then they can choose to slow down as well. Hell I dont even care if healers don't dps but it is very preferred obviously. This is coming from someone who plays tank/dps about as evenly as possible and healer not too far behind.
I would also like to say that the tank "You pull it you tank it" should only ever be applied if there is repeated purposeful pulls on the healer/dps part. If I ever (which never really happens aside malikahs well golems) pull a single pack as a tank and another party member chooses to pull the next pack ON PURPOSE aka on the second pack after I said not too, then you better believe I am ranged attacking as a tank on the first mob pack only and shirking them. They stay in their lane clear as day. It doesn't take that much longer to slow pull. Either that or they need to stay tanking, either or.
Hmm I do agree on the point that since tanks and healers have a bigger impact on the groups capacity to do big pulls, it makes sense they have a bigger say. But in fairness, if the dps is lacking, that can sometimes cause a pull to take too long and cause the tank and healer to run out of resources. This is of course rare, and something like a warrior can often continue for nearly forever on your average pull. But it is worth noting that dps aren't just there, they also do their part 😊
I can see the point in not helping after stating your mind to the dps, but personally I just think it is better to let the dps keep making the mistake of being the bad guy, and then simply report them after the dungeon if they don't see reason.
Remember, that dps is probably only playing around you doing this punishment. The next tank they get paired with, they ninjapull again. If they instead learn, either by listening to reason in the first place (which your example states they wouldn't before you do your thing), or by eventually accumulating enough reports for this annoying behavior to get a talking to, then they would probably change for the better in the long run.
But I do understand that you might not want to bother with all that in the moment 😊
"You pull it you tank it" is a warning I give sometimes, and only to players I am already coordinating with. As for random groups, I do my best as a tank main to give people the best experience possible. if there is a problem player, I adjust. Each of the 3 roles are capable of being toxic but in my 15+ years of playing MMOs with tank/healer/dps the tank is the least likely to employ toxic tactics. Some can be a bit too proud of their role but I can't remember a single time a tank started the drama or was the first to rage quit because thier party wasn't performing to thier expectations.
You may have a different experience from mine and I respect that. I have seen tanks let thier pride get the better of them. My theory is that some tank players use the role as a means of having control of something in thier life and when someone takes that away it pisses them off. However, control is the name of the game when we're talking about the tank. Each role controls some element of the fight but the tank is everything and sometimes has to play every position.
I don't completely disagree with your pacing and fairness point, but the tank is the one driving. The tank controls the mobs so the dps can kill it "quickly", the healer heals the tank so the tank can continue to control everything and even if you don't have a tank or they die, either the healer or the dps has to take on the role to keep thins going. Things should be fair for everyone but I feel like for the 10-20 mins you are going to be dealing with strangers, who you'll likely never see again, its just better to let a decent tank control the pace, and if its too much for the healer then the tank should listen to their party and adjust thier speed.
If you wanted to run the dungeon at your speed, you shoulda tanked.
Group agreement is one thing ninjapullers usually don't ask they just keep doing it cos they think they are deciding how fast you can go. I had one today, a healer who made my job twice as hard by pulling so far ahead it messed up everything.
He was rude and aggressive as well, he is now blacklisted and my next run went smooth as a nut, same dungeon, next run different group.
I play tanks and healers a lot but when I DPS I never ninja pull because I know how annoying it is.
Also running way ahead of your healer at the beginning of the run is a sure way to die, noone can heal round corners and if they cant see you that's it, just wait a sec it will make the run go so much smoother and noone dies, also have fun it is supposed to be a game after all.
Based healer. Twice as hard, you say? did you have to press twice as many cooldowns, or hit your aoe twice as many times, what do you mean twice as hard if the healer is taking the hits?
I've definitely been guilty of attacking too much as healer. I greed and see how much damage I can do, then panic cause I forgot the tank can die. Usually I can risk letting the tank get low but there have been times I underestimate the pack's damage and they almost or do die.