Hey Dave...Just want to echo what some commentators have said. Yes, you are loved and we do love your vids...You are the best commentator of classical music on this planet. You look and sound great; take your time, take care of yourself and your business. PS..Thanks for making us all aware of unfamiliar music that is worth our time, and the music that isn't worth it so that we DON'T waste our time. As you've said many times "Ears Don't Lie" Take care Dave.
I dont Think DH want an Emmy, or other pr prices. We Can listen and enjoy his work, and try some of his faves. I have done so for 20 years, and filled my library with great recordings. I respect him so much 🎶
I am so glad you're taking a short vacation. You are so incredibly prolific here that's it's immediately noticeable when you're off for only one day. Please take some relaxation time. Sometimes I worry about you. You make it look easy but it has to be time consuming and a lot of hard work to produce these videos. Thank you so much for the generosity of your knowledge.
This is simply to add my voice to all those who’ve missed you the past few days. I’ve been waking up to you and your videos every morning for two years now, and during the past couple of days I honestly began to wonder if you were well or not. Happily, you’ve been taking some time off, which by God you definitely deserve!
It’s a tough world we live in. You bring some upbeat joy to many of us. You talk about music. Music makes us happy and fulfilled. You make us happy and fulfilled. Thank you
Over the past few years I've been collecting symphonies of lesser known German symphonist, and discovered marvelous symphonies by Fesca, Ries, Loewe, Lachner, Eduard Franck, Raff, Volkmann, Draeseke, Bruch, Gernsheim, Jadassohn and Klughardt. But no Spohr yet- and after what I've heard from him in this video it seems to have been a wise decision my me to have ignored him thus far - I have not missed anything worthwhile. Thank you for convincing me to keep on steering clear from Spohr.
What a relief. Dave's only on VACATION. Whew. You had us worried. Guess it's pretty clear how much we look forward to these daily videos and (for some of us, I know) a first-thing-in-the-morning visit with you. So when you don't appear for a couple day, well, we worry. But a vacation . . . that's different. Something you clearly deserve, too. I'm glad you're giving yourself a break. You just have to warn us ahead of time so we can prepare ourselves for the disruption to our daily fix! Seriously, though, glad you're getting some time off and doubly glad you gave us something to chew on in your absence.
You deserve a vacation, Dave! Enjoy it. I have missed about a month of your videos, since I've been away, on vacation, and in the woods out of range of the internet. A welcome break for me. In any case upon my return I had the pleasure of seeing your thoughtful presentation on the premise that music can express nearly every state of mind except hatred. I agree wholeheartedly. Some composers were hateful people, but their music, even when exprssing darker moods, somehow inhabits a realm that transcends their de-formed psyches. One could counter your thesis by arguing, as Bernstein does in his essay, "What Does Music Mean?" (I think also a topic of a Young People's Concert), that music does not "mean" or "express" anything. Music is simply music, "lit by its own star," sui generis. Lenny makes a pretty good case for what is, in my estimation, an implausible hypothesis. On the other hand, I think that music can evoke feelings that are close to hatred, like revulsion (cf. the Scherzo of Mahler 6) or fury (the Rondo Burleske of Mahler 9). But hatret pure and simple--no. "If music be the food of love, play on . . . " Thanks from the bottom of my heart, Dave, for your mission on behalf of classical music, and helping your viewers to listen more acutely, critically, and appreciatively.
Take your well deserved vacation! Of course we'll miss you, but you showed us so much new music to explore recently, we all have to do our homework anyway.
I thought boring? So I multitasked and did my yoga while listening. So profound to ah ha that there is no hatred expressed in music. Enjoyed very much!!
I find some of the orchestral music associated with Alberich and Hagen in Wagner's Ring to be close to a hateful feeling. It sneers. Same with Strauss' Elektra - though it could be argued that the emotion is more anger than hate.
Exactly the characters I was thinking of. Anger, rage, hatred pretty hard to parse. Mozart's Elettra in Idomeneo is the embodiment of hate in "D'Oreste, d'Ajace." I don't think any human emotion is a closed book to the greatest composers. Or even a Puccini or Leoncavallo (Pagliacci.)
Thank you again Dave...I won't risk the redundancy in the comments below, except to say "What they said", in spades! This talk was also insightful and very philosophical, bordering on the cosmological. But you made the case effectively!
Thank you for this unexpected treat! I'm a serious addict, and I've been going through Dave Hurwitz withdrawal! As for hatred, some might say that it is no emotion at all, but a process. Rather than a single dump of electricity and chemicals as in joy or sorrow or fear, it is built on memories, thoughts, and a history of dumps of electricity and chemicals over time. Is that possibly another reason it would be so difficult (or impossible) to convey with music?
Yes Dave, you have been missed. Was it only two days? Seemed like an eternity. Can't wait until you're back in full force. Enjoy your few days off. I guess if a MUSHROOM had a favorite composer, it would be Louis "SPORE" !!!! yuk yuk C ya, Fred
I DO look forward to your every appearance. I would be aware of your absence if you were truly away. I found this video very convincing and educational. I knew nothing of the composer. After thinking about Strauss’ Elektra, specifically, I believe I agree with your premise.
You have helped guide me though the classical world so much, Its good your archives are always there when you take a day off! 🙂 Classical music has made me a softer man, i carry more love and I think the music helps me express that. But I recently came across some heavy metal and my whole body just resisted it! I just felt it expressed hate and I felt aweful for a long time
Depends on what Heavy metal you came across. It is an extremely varied style of music. Only the most extreme linger on hate for the sake of itself, and there are sub-genres of metal that are intricate, intriguing, challenging or just plain entertaining. AND some are quite deeply rooted in Classical inspiration, technique - or both. Hope no one was trying to introduce you to the most brutal so-called metal with the sole intent to shock. That would surely be a turn-off, and a huge disservice to thousands of talented musicians who play heavier or progressive music.
The scherzo of Walton's 1st Symphony is marked 'con malizia'. Would that count as hatred, does it succeed in conveying that emotion and is it successful as great music? It's the nearest I can think of. Another example of musical contempt, which may prove your point, is Rued Langgaard's piece 'Carl Nielsen our great composer', weird even by Langgaard's standards. Indeed, the 'Humoreske' of Nielsen's own 6th symphony might be seen as a sort of parallel to what Spohr was attempting in his final movement as a mockery of contemporary trends - but is it great music in itself?
The two best examples I can think of are that Walton movement 'con malizia' and the scherzo of Shostakovich's Tenth, which allegedly represents Stalin. But even then - they don't sound like hatred! They sound like the things that the composer hates (fear, oppression, violence, bitterness, etc.), not the hatred itself.
On a side note, David, A new Thomas de Hartmann CD is now available containing his Piano Concerto, Symphonie-Poeme No.3, Scherzo-.Fantatique on Nimbus. A few sound samples later and I didn't hesitate.
Mazel tov on hitting 16,000 subscribers! I’m out of equivalently-numbered Shostakovich symphonies to listen to by way of celebration, so I’ll settle for the orchestral version of the Suite on Verses of Michaelangelo. Music can express sorrow, sadness, and terror, mourn genocides, deaths, and other crimes, but successfully conveying hatred in a way that isn’t absurd is more of a challenge.
To David and Mr. Hernandez: Maybe I understand your points. Hagen is brought up with "Hasse die Frohen", but what the music tells us not so much his hatred as our own sympathy, the music being the emotional stream of the drama, first shuddering at Hagen's misery, then making the transition to rejoice in Brünnhilde's state of mind. Thank you for interesting reactions!
This is interesting to me. I listen to a lot of metal / industrial music (as well as a lot of Jazz and Classical) and you're absolutely right about music not being able to express hatred without some verbal direction. Metal and industrial are great at expressing anger (ugly, nasty anger at times) but hatred requires directing that angry energy at a particular target. Even Pigface's "The Love Serenade (I Hate You?)" requires someone saying "I hate you" over and over again. Perhaps the title can do some of the heavy lifting, but that's also some form of textual communication of the target in question. Really appreciate this thoughtful view, and glad you're back to educate, enlighten, and entertain us. Hoping to keep on listening for many years to come.
Does a death growl maybe sound hateful? Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth had (maybe still has) a magnificent growl, that sure sounds scary and could maybe sound "hateful"? Then again the guy himself is as lovely as they get!
@@OperationPhantom I would certainly go into what the growl in music (especially if used sparingly and as an accent) is used to convey. It can be mindless, but usually isn't, and certainly not in OPETH's case. Surely, for a layman, a growl is a growl (same with a shriek): it sounds beastly, and thus disconcerting. To dispute that, one would need to lean on specific cases where such device actually enhances the music.
@@OperationPhantom There's usually some lyrics or what-not to go with it. But again, is it hatred or anger? Two different emotions. I can be angry in general, but hate requires me to focus that energy somewhere. And unless the listener has an idea who the target is then it's just effervescent anger.
@@CraigMaloney Music being abstract and hatred not being a base emotion - it indeed HAS to be directed to something or someone - this is likely forever debatable. Or not. It's just that a really intense growl hardly sounds JUST like an expression of internally directed anger or frustration (to me). It is seemingly confrontational and that aspect of it is externally directed, so... even if the target is unclear, there seems to be one. Could be my religious upbringing and people warning you about listening to "such bands" come into it as well though :) Then again there are probably christian metal bands that use growls to praise Jesus for all I know.
So we’re not going to a complete works of Spohr box set from Brilliant Classics? The first two movements sound thrown together at random. The Scherzo has some dynamic range, but it’s a train speeding and slowing down, neither of which happen very fast, and certainly not in his time, when trains were slower than horses. The finale, well, oh my.
Good to see another video from you to tide us over until next week. I was wondering if you were ever going to review the new CD of Marc-Andre Hamelin playing William Bolcom's ragtime pieces. It seems to be getting rave reviews, was wondering what your thoughts were on it (Hamelin has also put out a CPE bach record recently that you may also be interested in).
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc I have been reviewing recent releases--perhaps not the ones you're curious about, but I have been doing it pretty regularly. Ex: the PentaTone Mahler cycle, Poschner's Bruckner cycle, Thomas de Hartmann's orchestral works, and so forth.
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc I do. However, the new ClassicsToday.com website should be up in a few weeks, and there will be more reviews there too, and those will be exclusively new releases.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Honestly I prefer the repertoire videos to reviews. You're quite the musicologist! The only reason I asked about the new Bolcom/Hamelin record is because I need to know whether or not it's worth it to shell out the big bucks to Hyperion (since they refuse to put their music on streaming services). I normally never buy CDs, but I am a Hamelin fiend.
Your 1940 slip up, would make a great topic for a future video. The premise being, what if the tend toward 20th Century music was reversed. So in 1840 we had the avante garde, but for the next hundred years composers were working towards tonality.
Here’s a related question I’ve been wanting to ask - does all music necessarily express something? Or is there music which doesn’t express anything except itself? Stravinsky was clearly wrong to apply this to all music, but some of his work really does feel that way at times - something as obscure and eccentric as Les Noces for example. There’s also the whole idea that some music is more emotional, and some is more intellectual. How can that be defined?
I always thought - or at least I interpreted it - that Stravinsky's statement was less about promoting a dry view of music and more a view which dated back to at least the Greeks that objects like music don't have emotional expression - we (humans) ascribe emotions to music when we listen to it, rather.
@@SO-ym3zs Indeed, and in literature I would say there is something like a space of possible connotations which arises from all the words and their combinations. What part of that space gets the most emphasis would then depend on a subject’s interpretation. But what that space would look like in music I have far less of an idea. One can form sentence with only one valid interpretation (although you could argue a tautology is not really a valid sentence) but is this possible in music? One of Bernstein’s Norton lectures was about comparing music to poetry and the ways both arise from deep structures, seems like revisiting it could bring some answers although I have no idea how reflective of reality his theory is in the first place.
Thanks for the post Dave! I was having withdrawal symptoms...I think I've just imagined my recording from hell: the Spohr 6th with Malcolm Sargent conducting the LPO circa 1955...
Very interesting. I am reminded of the writing of theologically oriented authors such as C.S. Lewis, that God loves music (as evidenced by its importance in churches, synagogues, etc.) and that the Devil hates music and wants to replace it with continual noise.
I could swear I heard in the last bars of Shostakovich's 5th symphony the sound of Shostakovich hitting Stalin on the head with a giant club. Likewise it also could sound like the ghost of Shostakovich hitting Putin on the head!
I believe Wagner succeeds in doing so, perhaps because he was such a loathsome individual. He also successfully differentiates between anger and hatred in music, as in Wotan at the end of Walküre Act II vs. Alberich in Rheingold after Wotan forcibly snatches the ring from his finger. That snarling motif sure sounds like an effective musical representation of hatred. PS Just came across your talk on Janáček's Sinfonietta. Absolutely brilliant.
If you go on an extended vacation(2 days), expect your RUclips subscribers to send out a search party. Happy to see you back, and with a great topic. Haydn's 'Farewell' seems more a musical message than hateful. But that's as close as I can get to disproving your thoughtful thesis. If you don't insist on 'great music', there's always Boulez.
I guess we should view Dave's absence from posting youtube videos in dog years and multiply everything by 7. Hence Mr. Hurwitz was gone for 14 days and boy it seemed like an eternity! Welcome back!!
I'll see your bet of the incapability of music's expression of hatred, David, and raise you onto the incapability of music's expression of indifference---and for the same reason that hate is not the antithesis of love, but indifference is the antithesis of both. 🙂
Off the top of my head, I think much of the music relating to Hagen from Götterdämmerung is a musical expression of hatred. Think of those snarling horns that start of “Hier sitz ich zur Wacht”, or the bit where Hagen kills Gunther. Do you think that represents hatred?
A stimulating topic. Clearly Spohr is incapable of expressing distaste or hatred for, let alone mockery of, Beethoven's music. Emotions such as fear, terror, anger, and catastrophe seem to abound in the purely orchestral music of Mahler, Shostakovich, and Bartok, among others. Their music shows an awareness of humanity's dark side. The second movement of Shostakovich's Symphony no 10 perhaps speaks more about dread and terror than hatred, but aren't those emotions related? More specific emotions like hatred seem to require some extra-musical context, such as the visible human actors of opera and ballet. What music by itself can convey remarkably well is struggle and transcendence.
Well, yes, but here we have a pretty clear target. Does the finale of Spohr's symphony reveal his dislike of 1840s modern music, as he understood it, or is it simply bad music? I would argue the latter. My point is that we know (or have a very good idea about) what his intentions were, but what came out is junk. And that is what happens when you try to express hatred in music. You get, not hatred, but garbage.
This reminds me of when Wynton Marsalis was on Sesame Street. But I think Wynton's point was that music *shouldn't* express anger, not that it *can't* .
Yes, it is in the nature of music to be in touch with love and humanity even if it tries to convey states of drama and outrage. Music and destruction do not match.
So glad you're back...although it's pretty sad that you can't take 2, much deserved, days off without the rest of us freaking out, but that should show you how important your work is to us all...(congrats on 16 K subscribers btw)...All of the examples you played proved your point perfectly...watered down Handel and Mozart, not even NEAR Beethoven, and the finale, well I would prefer the Auber, but at least in Spohr's attempt at hatred, he approached something that resembled testosterone! Some of Spohr is good, like you said, but this idea for a symphony was trash
I believe you're right, that hatred is a vacuum of the very things which constitute the core of music. But there are two works which seem to come close: the second movement of the Shostakovich 10th (i.e., the alleged portrayal of Josef Stalin), and moments in Clytemnestra "Dream" and the Finale in Strauss's ELEKTRA...Or is it essentially madness which comes across? Anyhow, enjoy your vacation!
Violence, nihilistic rage, maybe, but not hatred, I think. Interesting that Shostakovich tried (if that story is true) to depict Stalin, but NOT his "hatred of Stalin." Music can do one, but not the other.
there's a lot of hatred, vendetta, etc in opera. In general there is a greater range of emotions in vocal music than instrumental music that's why I prefer vocal music and opera.
A really interesting idea, David, Thanks as ever for your food for thought , Spohr gets mentioned in a song in The Mikado, paired with Beethoven as if they were equals. Had to ask who he was when I first head the song! So you did piick rather easy target. You may so well be right, but what about those hammering chords in the central climax in the first movement of Mahler's Resurrection? You may say that is anger and despair, But when played with full force there is a real hatred there for the finality of death and the human condition. If you feel that, then the journey to the conclusion, where we are given hope and assurance that life is not in vain, becomes all the more powerful. I would also add many sections of the first movement of Shostakovich's 4th. The whole movement is driven by anger at the political situation, sometimes relieved by irony But that anger is fueled by such hatred that he had to withdraw it or risk being put in prison. Both are hatred of life, rather than directed to any individual. it's not an emotion easily admitted to. It's spoken of by Iago in Verdi's Otello, with a bit of help from Shakepeare and Boito. But I think your can hear it at times behind the music of Mahler and Shostakovich
Anger does not equal hatred. You are anthropomorphizing sounds to suit your own vision of the music. That's fine, of course, but doesn't go beyond you. I disagree completely. "Hatred of life?" No way.
as I work a lot and I keep time to listen to music, I must admit, although I love what you do, I'm quite happy when you take a break since i have a listening debt of your stuff. you are so prolific! And I wonder if there really ever was a break. I've been listening to rag for several weeks now, thanks to Marc-André Hamelin, for whom with S. Osborne, I consistently buy all publications and am rarely disappointed. Rag is a genre that I don't know well and that I must and would like to explore. If you have any advice on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated.
Hatred??? The good Herr Spohr was surely capable of nothing stronger than a mild bit of tut-tutting comtempt. Surely there are examples from the 20thc avant garde that tried a little harder at it.
There is hatred and sarcasm in Liszt's diabolical music. I would also Shostakovich's "Stalin" movement in his 10th, and much of Vaughan Williams 4jh Symphony (less so in his 6th).
@@ruramikael You feel it the way you feel it, but there is no evidence that Shostakovich was trying to depict Stalin's feelings towards his fellow man.
Seems that brahms had some very angry moments, eg tragic overture, anger perhaps being an extension of hatred for a given circumstance or object. Reiner's performance comes to mind
Removed opera from the equation, I thought that ballet music could offer some examples. So I though of Romeo after the death of Mercutio, when he says “a plague on both your houses!”. Prokofiev’s Romeo and Juliet has a scene for Romeo deciding to avenge Mercutio.
I love this video and the fascinating thesis you present. I think that you are basically correct, but there are some threats to your thesis. Hatred is rare in music because there frankly are not many musicians who actually hate. Sometimes musicians get angry, however, and they do express their anger pretty effectively--for example Shostakovich's 8th string quartet, Ice-T's Cop Killer, or even Beethoven's 5th Symphony. If it is a righteous anger, then I guess it becomes a thing of beauty and is not anathema for music to express. To actually express hatred effectively as a musician, I think you actually have to 1) hate something, and 2) compose a work on a relatively grand scale to create a whole world of contempt fore something in the real world. The one famous work that I can think of is Wagner's Ring Cycle, and only if you believe anti-semitic allegories that have been proposed for it. As a parable against Jewish Plutocracy (which is one way it has been interpreted) the piece may well be an actual expression of hatred with some degree of skillful presentation. If this is true, it is therefore not impossible to write a hateful piece of music, Spohr failed simply because he was a lousy composer.
The only Spohr I had ever heard until today was from one of his symphonies, in which he appears to have plagiarized the famously rambunctious theme from the finale of Beethoven's Second, but tamed and smoothed out into something anodyne! I guess he wanted to show Beethoven EXACTLY how to be a better composer. By the way, speaking of dislike of Beethoven, have you ever read Leo Tolstoy's disdainful comments about the Late Quartets and the people who (profess to) love them? Truly reactionary!
Very interesting (and funny!) once again this analysis of "poor" Spohr's music and his (in)ability to create great music because of his, say, inhibitions... When I think of hatred being expressed through music, my mind immediately conjures up the fiercest, darkest and bileful (death) metal bands actually. Mostly not music I'd listen to for pleasure but that's probably not the point. Largely the subject matter of the songs and the menacing attitude play into this as well of course. There is the phenomenon of the "death growl" or "grunting", that sounds really "evil" when performed convincingly well. It's probably the sound that (some) humans can make that sounds the most "musically hateful" to me. Though it could still be interpreted mostly as "disgust", since hate is mostly a combination of the basic emotions of anger and disgust.
Hatred cannot be expressed by classical and other music in my experience, but boring music can elicit feelings of hatred of the music by me. I want to be elated (and all related synonyms), not depressed, by what I hear.
Good morning Dave . What about Shostakovich 10th portrait of Stalin. Since I don't think the composer was in a good place when he wrote the second mvt of mockery , and that he also disliked Stalin .
Certainly not within the realm of classical music, it depends on your definition of "hatred", I'd say that *depicting* hatred with instrumentals isn't really hard to do in metal, I'd argue that even the Sad But True intro is ok at it, or any instrumental Doom song is good too, this meme comes to mind lol watch?v=LGvJgtbbuf0 , in metal you can depict it very well (although vocals seal the deal, they aren't mandatory), what is much harder, and maybe impossible, is to *elicit* hatred in the listener (otherwise you would never listen to that kind of music), but, that said, I could show it to my mother and it will elicit disgust, distress and outright hatred before running away or turning it off, not that its deliberate depiction intended to elicit that kind of hateful reaction, but it is what it is. To depict an emotion in music doesn't necessarily mean to foment that emotion on the listener, in the case of anger, fury, hatred, etc, it may even be to "release stress", not to become violent. In the end, it all comes down to what *is* great music, I love metal and I'll say it is, but I'll say that its greatness derives from a different type of pleasure, one which isn't about melody or joy, and it gets clearer the more "heavy" the subgenre is, the "melodic pleasure" becomes less relevant to its greatness
Usually the "hatred" caused in people who are averse to Metal, is not really caused BY the music (unless it is some kind of gore-death-grind who like to wallow in their mire trying to impress adolescents), but rather by the accidental listener's perception of the music they hear. Or rather even the REPUTATION of a certain style of music, without caring to check it out instead - fully expecting negative and disturbing experience. Sometimes, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Similar to perception of all Pop being "shallow and simplistic", jazz - "too heady" or otherwise niche, etc. There are irritating prejudices about Classical as well. :) It takes patience to reveal to an uninitiated person what is great within a genre.
@@bigg2988 Yeah, it has to do with expectations and tolerance, I'd say everyone has a "heaviness threshold" which if it's passed, it's becomes distressing, otherwise the US government wouldn't have used metal as a legit form of torture coupled with other more "classical" ones Regarding the listener's subjectivity, it can be just prejudice stemming from ignorance and a passive assimilation of a "conservative" normalcy which includes many other things too, not just the "that's satanic". Hard Rock/Metal has the added particularity that the person can (wrongly) listen to it from the point of view "it's yelling/shouting at me", which anyone who listens to it knows full well that the one singing and shouting is oneself along the singer, even if you don't make a noise.
Hi, new to the channel and I find this topic fascinating. What about the fugue from Liszt's piano sonata in B minor? To my ears it contains mocking, contempt and rage--does that add up to hatred?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well deserved ! Coming to something when you have to almost apologize for a brief holiday, even doctors are allowed them without having to explain, LOL, - but on a serious and positive side, - your subs love your work! Peace - Gus ;)
Ahh, I've been waiting for you to weigh in on Spohr, and this did not disappoint! I actually like the symphonies well enough, but what you say here is right on, especially about the toothless 6th symphony, which commits the unforgivable sin for a parodic piece of being UNFUNNY. Re: hatred in music, I disagree, I think music is perfectly capable of expressing this emotion--perhaps even *well suited* for it, since music is so great at capturing the irrational. My mind immediately turns to Gotterdammerung, all the music associated with Hagen, which is pure black hatred in musical form--and which later corrupts Brunhilde's music, esp. at the end of Act II. Plus, I can think of plenty of really great film music depicts the emotion of hatred.
Oh, I don't know, there's plenty of purely orchestral music in Gotterdammerung that pulses with bile and spite, and I don't think you need words at all to understand it. (Assuming the listener is acculturated w/ the general norms and style topics of 19th century musical expression). Similar thing goes for the Prelude for Act 2 of Parsifal, I'd contend: pure, unfiltered loathing. And even when there are words in The Ring, its generally the orchestral underscore that most eloquently articulates the characters's true mental state, no? And it seems right that Wagner is the man for the job: if there ever were a composer who knew how to depict hate in music, it would be the most hateful composer in history. I suppose I just don't agree that any emotional state can be categorically ruled out for musical representation, hatred or otherwise. Music is capacious that way.
The Rondo Burleske of Mahler’s 9th comes pretty close though: a scathing portrait of his contemporaries in the Viennese elite. I detect all kinds of hatred being conjured at the anti-semitism Mahler encountered. And I read it as a catharsis whereby the grace of the Adagio becomes of heightened significance.
I wish people would stop brining up metal. I really don't see the point. Yes, it's loud and nasty, but without the loud and nasty words its just simply stuff--it has about as much business expressing emotion as tree falling on your house. Do you think the tree cares, however much noise it makes or damage it does?
In my opinion, the ONE emotion that no one wants to intentionally represent or communicate in music (or filmmaking or playwriting, etc.) is boredom. That doesn’t mean we can’t be bored listening to music, in fact we’re somewhat frequently bored. But that’s different than writing a piece of music intentionally designed to elicit the human emotional state of boredom from the listener. I do know a few films with scenes designed specifically to bore an audience (to communicate that human emotional state) but they are rare and, as you might expect, don’t have a wide audience. Hollywood in particular will represent boring acts like waiting, playing chess, painting, clothes washing and baseball as highly action oriented activities with conflict, tension, victories and “entertainment value.” Anyway, I can’t think of a piece of music that intentionally tries to bore the listener as its emotional goal.
Shostakovich wanted the first movement of his 15th string quartet played in such a way the audience would leave from boredom. But being the first movement it doesn’t make a lot of sense he actually wanted to achieve that. Perhaps he wanted the players to avoid expressing emotions that they otherwise might do.
The very beginning of Lutoslawski's cello concerto kind of pokes around boredom, or some kind of torpor. Of course the whole piece isn't like that, it's just the starting point!
Fascinating thoughts, as always! Would you consider the Nazi juggernaut episode of the first movement from Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony an example of hatred expressed in music? The banal theme (possibly from Lehar) is repeated and ratcheted to almost obscene heights (or depths). In the Interrupted Intermezzo of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, the same Shostakovich theme is parodied. In both cases, the music was made to sound "so bad that it was good". Valid cases of musical hatred?
@@DavesClassicalGuidePhilip Glass explains this in his first book . Antother examples: the sorcerer's apprentice, the moment when the brooms are chopped to pieces with an axe. Or Wotan's Rage from Die Walküre. I love your talks! Make me a better listener!
Brahms’s Ballade op 10 no 1. The music is inspired and reflects the structure of the the classic murder ballade “Edward”. It’s a story full of hatred, and sadness, where a mother questions her son about the blood on his knife. Eventually the son confesses to killing his father, but he also ends cursing his mother, implying she also was involved in the murder.
Um, yes, but that says nothing about what feelings Brahms thought he was expressing in the music (obviously). I also think you kind of inserted the "hatred" into the story for the sake of trying to make the point.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, yes. I was trying to make the point that also music with a program can express hatred, not only music with words. I think that this story is genuinely about hatred. We don’t know the reason of the murder, but we know that the story ends with the son sending to hell the mother for her bad advise. The music reflects all those rhetoric questions, and builds up to the moment the son admits to the murder, and curses the mother. There must be a lot of hate in the air if the mother pushed the son to kill his father, and the son at the end resents the mother. Knowing the story, the music seems to match those feelings. However, if by music “without text” you mean that music without words, and without a program, cannot express hatred, then I think you are right. I don’t think there is a way to distinguish anger, from hatred, or something ominous.
@@ManuManu-lm6xh Your comments are rife with assumptions unsupported by the sound and structure of the music itself. You are simply telling a story based on the title of the piece, but it says nothing about what the music does.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I’ll try to explain what I see in the music, at the best of my capability. There is no overall one to one correspondence between the text and the music, otherwise Brahms would have written a lieder. Nevertheless, Brahms wanted to let us know that the music is inspired by the text, and this authorise us to see music and text together. In my opinion, there are sections of the text that can be perfectly matched with the music. While there other parts where the music summarises what happens in the text. The Andante begins with an apparently quiet conversation between the mother and the son: it’s all “piano”, but it hides something ominous. The first theme in D minor could be seen as the mother’s rhetorically questioning the son, with her allusive hints. I say allusive, because the theme ends with two empty parallel octaves, followed by two echos in pianissimo. There are no harmonies, and this leaves us waiting for an answer. But there is no answer, and the question is repeated again, this time with some subtle change in the harmony, that gets more frantic. This time Edward, the second theme, answers. The tempo becomes a little more animated “poco più moto”, and we are in B flat, far far away from D Minor. Edward gives his elusive answers. There are four big slurs in the score, four musical phrases, four answers. Like in the text, the conversation goes on, and everything is repeated again pretty much without any variation. So far the music follow the text. First theme "Why does your sword so drip with blood, Edward, Edward, Why does your sword so drip with blood, And why so sad go you O?" Second theme "O I have killed my hawk so good, Mother, mother, O I have killed my hawk so good, And I had no more but he O” It follows a more animated section, the Allegro where, in my opinion the music summarise the rising tension in the text. This section represents the passing time, and the truth that is emerging. The second theme, Edward’s theme, appears in a different register of the keyboard. There is a continuo crescendo, and an obsessive accompaniment of repeated triplets. As the sound gets louder, both hands moves far away, in the opposite direction of the keyboard, and the piano sounds like an orchestra. In the crescendo, the harmony changes for the first time to D Major, but when we finally get to the climax, we go back to B flat, and to the Edward’s theme. The theme is presented as it appeared the first time, but now in double forte. Edward is confessing, and cursing the mother. All the resentment is exposed. Edward keeps talking. Again the big slurs in the score highlight his phrases. The theme is always double forte, over an obsessive drone of triplets, a B flat at the bass. He probably keeps accusing the mother. We have now reached the climax in the text, which coincides with the shocking final revelation. The music however doesn’t end here, with a bang, like the text, but goes back to the andante. Only the first theme is repeated, now sottovoce, and with triplets at the bass, that also conceal the dissonances in the harmonies. The music ends in diminuendo ma a tempo, back to the ominous atmosphere of the beginning. Of course, I can be wrong, it may not be all about hatred, but then what is about the climax in the music, if not the confession and the hatred? I hope I was able to argue that it’s not unreasonable to assume that in this music there is a representation of a highly dysfunctional family, and that much of the story told is about hatred.
@@ManuManu-lm6xh You were very able to argue it, and I appreciate your taking the time to do it. I still believe, however, that you are merely telling a story, that your matching of the music to specific events in that story is completely without foundation, and that the introduction of the idea of "hatred" to a specific moment in the work comes entirely from within you, and from neither the music nor the story. We are free to disagree in this respect, and I admire both the intensity with which you listened as well as your willingness to share your viewpoint so gracefully. Thank you.
19:14 "...chains of dominant seventh chords that are supposed to sound dramatic" 😂😂😂 Love it! This inspires me to take a greater look into what I listen to rather than vaguely describing it as "lively," "profound" etc.
Well it's a good thing that you posted this video. I missed your announcement regarding a small break and I was getting worried something bad has happened. As far as the topic is concerned I think you are on to something. It's important to make a small distinction between different feelings: hate is not the same as anger. Hate includes anger among other feelings, but hate connotes other sentiments as well, like contempt and certain bitterness. It's only human to get angry every now and then, but hate is something a lot more vile. Anger will eventually be pacified, but hate is something more loathsome, something you sustain yourself, something that slowly eats you alive. This may sound romanticizing but I think music transcends that kind of negative feelings. Music is able to express anger (although in its abstract nature it's really hard to tell is the music depicting anger or a storm...), but I agree that music is free of hate. Maybe I'm being naive, but I genuinely think that music brings out the best in people. As a person Wagner was undoubtedly as obnoxious as they get. I realize that this is a contested topic, but in my view Wagner's works don't express his most hateful views. Perhaps it's only due to my naïveté, but I like to think that there were both good and bad angels in him, and his so called good angels are represented in his music and bad angels remain mostly in his more that dubious pamphlets.
I think art can express the best of the less perfect beings, an artist can surprass his own works and improve their styles, but don't improve themselves as persons, thats what I think about Wagner, his music is just the best he could have bringed, this can apply to many composers, after all artist are human beings, and no human is perfect, but they can create works that can overcome us.
As for expression of emotions: you're assuming that the listeners identify with the composer's viewpoint. An audience can also develop its own dynamics, especially as a crowd, and they can be nasty. Under the right (or wrong) circumstances, a mob will generate any emotion.
Hmmm... I don't know, I feel like von Zimmerman's Die Soldaten conveys malice, wrath, anxiety, and perhaps even hatred rather well. I dare say depending on the performance that Weill's Aufsteig und Fall der Stadt Mahagonny is dripping with malice and ends with a rather hate- and despair-filled finale "Nothing will help him or us or you now!"
Uh, Dave...ever hear of a Beethoven composition entitled "Rage (=hatred) over a lost penny." Even though Beethoven wrote it sorta tongue in cheek, its musical frantic writing was meant to express anger, even if it is in a jocular frame of mind. Also, the opening bars of Brahms First Piano Conterto...if that isn't raw anger at its height, I don't know what is.
@@DavesClassicalGuide As soon as I posted I realized that I misinterpreted what you said and were trying to convey. Clearly there are many compositions that you listen to which make you deeply sense anger internally as in my examples above. Hatred, however, is a different kind of emotion, a chameleon of sorts that can come in many different flavors. And because of this it tends to be a very personal phenomenon. For example, I can hate someone and internalize this hatred through hidden sarcasm or jealousy. No one would be the wiser. To this end jeolousy and sarcasm...especially MY jealousy and sarcasm...are almost impossible to portray musically. People can take their hatred to a clearly visible extreme with physical assault. This act can be portrayed musically but the underlying emotion of THEIR hatred would be hard to extract and convey musically. So basically what I think would be a better way to make your point would be to say that how we internalize hatred in these many forms is almost impossible to convey musically...unless, of course, there is a vocal text accompanying the music. Then the librettist may have a chance to convey a sense of hatred in this regard. Operas try to do this all the time...don't you agree?
It may be impossible to really express hatred in music, but boy some composers come awfully close: Allan Petterssen for one. And of course there's a lot of music that stirs up hatred in listeners. ...Kars for Kids...
Everyone I know (including me) really hates the Kars for Kids song, which means it's got to be one of the most successful pieces of its kind every written...
Maybe one has to move away from the classical mainstream to find hatred but no piece of music expresses outrage so splendidly as "Fables of Faubus " by Charles Mingus which is one extended raspberry ( or you may call it a Bronx cheer! ) against the unlamented Governor of Arkansas, Orval Faubus, who tried to enforce segregation in the state's schools. Mingus issued a version on his own label with lyrics that fully express his venom, but the earlier instrumental version on "Mingus Ah Um" from its snarling opening figure, tells us all we need to know.
I would agree in part but also disagree in part. Music (or poetry), by its nature, is of a plane different than raw emotion. By that constraint, I agree with you. But I also think Music need not be confined to that plane. Imagine a new version of 4'33" where the pianist comes out spews forth the most disgusting, insulting, hate-filled words to the audience. Its not the Don Rickles funny insults with the apology at the end. Is that Music? It could be performance art. One might refer the pianist to some sort of anger management class on the theory that raw anger is bad. What if someone took George Bernard Shaw insults and set them to a song cycle; his words and inflections certainly communicate the same level of contempt and hatred as my anger management pianist. But, it seems so artful that it's diminished of its rawness and elevated by its artfulness. Then is hate musical? I think it depends on how far you want to bend the idea of music. Or maybe how far you're willing to let music bend to hate. I might offer the first movement of the Shostakovich 13th; its is hateful; its not pleasant to listen to; its powerful and raw (even without the words) and I think most would consider it music. My 3¢
I dunno, Dave. In a blind listening test of that second movement, I probably would have guessed either Mozart or very early Schubert. I think Spohr did a pretty good job of a Mozart parody. But…in the scherzo, he totally failed in capturing Beethoven’s sense of humor and irony.
Wishing you a great recuperation time where some of us will resort to (re)discover some of your video treasures of the past. The topic of hate in music is intriguing and holds potential for a lenghty discussion. For my part as a traditionally rooted listener who cherishes melody line and harmony much of what came with the Second Wienna Scool and thereafter; twelvetone composition etc. represents a kind of de facto hatred towards the average publics expectations of what "good music" is about, and turned classical music into a theoretical battlefield between academics and avant-gardists against traditionalists (count me in). So what if the reaction among some listeners to modern compositions is repulsion and disgust? Couldn't the music in this case be said to trigger (a kind of) hate even if this was not the intention by the composer?
I don’t think hatred is at all being expressed in that music. The composers in the Second Viennese School were continuing a sort of evolution of tonality that spanned from the classical era, to the romantic, to the late romantic, where harmony was getting increasingly more complex and people eventually thought of new systems of tonality. They still appreciated and even venerated Mozart and Brahms. If their music triggers hatred in the mind of a listener, it’s not because the music is expressing hatred, it’s because of the intellectual prejudices and opinions of the listener.
Absolutely @@markmurphy7870 and that I why I stress that it is presumably not the intention of any modern composers to arouse hatred towards music as such. However I think it is a fact that modern compositions frequently trigger feelings of repulsion and irritation with audiences who feel that it does not pay off emotionally or intellectually to decipher the complexity of the work in question. And in such cases it is less relevant if the composer venerates the classical composers before him/her.
How about "Woe to him! He shall perish!" from Part 2 of Mendelssohn's Elijah? (There are other movements from the Elijah and St. Paul oratorios that seem to express powerful hatred.)
@@DavesClassicalGuide If I didn't know English, I would still hear hatred in the voices. With the vocal part entirely removed, it would sound less hateful, but still sound angry and menancing.
The reason why you were greatly missed is because you are THE best reviewer of Classical Music recordings on planet earth !
So true.
Without a doubt.
I said to myself "
There is no way I'm listening to 27 minutes about Ludwig Spohr." but I did and it was great.
Hey Dave...Just want to echo what some commentators have said. Yes, you are loved and we do love your vids...You are the best commentator of classical music on this planet. You look and sound great; take your time, take care of yourself and your business. PS..Thanks for making us all aware of unfamiliar music that is worth our time, and the music that isn't worth it so that we DON'T waste our time. As you've said many times "Ears Don't Lie" Take care Dave.
If this were a TV show you'd deserve an Emmy. Fun, entertainment at its best, and endlessly Informative and educational.
I dont Think DH want an Emmy, or other pr prices. We Can listen and enjoy his work, and try some of his faves. I have done so for 20 years, and filled my library with great recordings. I respect him so much 🎶
Dave, you’ve become as vital as everyone’s daily morning coffee! Take it away, and we all freak out!
I think music can express hatred, but not from the composer's view. It always has to be a character or a portrayal of a character.
That sounds very reasonable.
I am so glad you're taking a short vacation. You are so incredibly prolific here that's it's immediately noticeable when you're off for only one day. Please take some relaxation time. Sometimes I worry about you. You make it look easy but it has to be time consuming and a lot of hard work to produce these videos. Thank you so much for the generosity of your knowledge.
This is simply to add my voice to all those who’ve missed you the past few days. I’ve been waking up to you and your videos every morning for two years now, and during the past couple of days I honestly began to wonder if you were well or not. Happily, you’ve been taking some time off, which by God you definitely deserve!
It’s a tough world we live in. You bring some upbeat joy to many of us. You talk about music. Music makes us happy and fulfilled. You make us happy and fulfilled. Thank you
Over the past few years I've been collecting symphonies of lesser known German symphonist, and discovered marvelous symphonies by Fesca, Ries, Loewe, Lachner, Eduard Franck, Raff, Volkmann, Draeseke, Bruch, Gernsheim, Jadassohn and Klughardt. But no Spohr yet- and after what I've heard from him in this video it seems to have been a wise decision my me to have ignored him thus far - I have not missed anything worthwhile. Thank you for convincing me to keep on steering clear from Spohr.
I was getting disoriented without the daily videos. Looking forward to the resumption of the regular dose. Take care.
Spohr / Bach reminds me of the harmony exercises lesson in my Music Academy .
David, I love your great sense of humor ! Thanks a lot!
What a relief. Dave's only on VACATION. Whew. You had us worried. Guess it's pretty clear how much we look forward to these daily videos and (for some of us, I know) a first-thing-in-the-morning visit with you. So when you don't appear for a couple day, well, we worry. But a vacation . . . that's different. Something you clearly deserve, too. I'm glad you're giving yourself a break. You just have to warn us ahead of time so we can prepare ourselves for the disruption to our daily fix! Seriously, though, glad you're getting some time off and doubly glad you gave us something to chew on in your absence.
You deserve a vacation, Dave! Enjoy it. I have missed about a month of your videos, since I've been away, on vacation, and in the woods out of range of the internet. A welcome break for me. In any case upon my return I had the pleasure of seeing your thoughtful presentation on the premise that music can express nearly every state of mind except hatred. I agree wholeheartedly. Some composers were hateful people, but their music, even when exprssing darker moods, somehow inhabits a realm that transcends their de-formed psyches. One could counter your thesis by arguing, as Bernstein does in his essay, "What Does Music Mean?" (I think also a topic of a Young People's Concert), that music does not "mean" or "express" anything. Music is simply music, "lit by its own star," sui generis. Lenny makes a pretty good case for what is, in my estimation, an implausible hypothesis. On the other hand, I think that music can evoke feelings that are close to hatred, like revulsion (cf. the Scherzo of Mahler 6) or fury (the Rondo Burleske of Mahler 9). But hatret pure and simple--no. "If music be the food of love, play on . . . " Thanks from the bottom of my heart, Dave, for your mission on behalf of classical music, and helping your viewers to listen more acutely, critically, and appreciatively.
From the Mozart movement I got heavily diluted Brahms. From the Beethoven, heavily diluted Mendelssohn LOL.
Take your well deserved vacation! Of course we'll miss you, but you showed us so much new music to explore recently, we all have to do our homework anyway.
I thought boring? So I multitasked and did my yoga while listening.
So profound to ah ha that there is no hatred expressed in music. Enjoyed very much!!
I find some of the orchestral music associated with Alberich and Hagen in Wagner's Ring to be close to a hateful feeling. It sneers. Same with Strauss' Elektra - though it could be argued that the emotion is more anger than hate.
Exactly the characters I was thinking of. Anger, rage, hatred pretty hard to parse. Mozart's Elettra in Idomeneo is the embodiment of hate in "D'Oreste, d'Ajace." I don't think any human emotion is a closed book to the greatest composers. Or even a Puccini or Leoncavallo (Pagliacci.)
Just like in a play or a movie, if you hate the villain, maybe that's because the actor portraying him is doing a great job.
Thank you again Dave...I won't risk the redundancy in the comments below, except to say "What they said", in spades! This talk was also insightful and very philosophical, bordering on the cosmological. But you made the case effectively!
Thank you for this unexpected treat! I'm a serious addict, and I've been going through Dave Hurwitz withdrawal!
As for hatred, some might say that it is no emotion at all, but a process. Rather than a single dump of electricity and chemicals as in joy or sorrow or fear, it is built on memories, thoughts, and a history of dumps of electricity and chemicals over time. Is that possibly another reason it would be so difficult (or impossible) to convey with music?
Yes Dave, you have been missed. Was it only two days? Seemed like an eternity. Can't wait until you're back in full force. Enjoy your few days off. I guess if a MUSHROOM had a favorite composer, it would be Louis "SPORE" !!!! yuk yuk C ya, Fred
I DO look forward to your every appearance. I would be aware of your absence if you were truly away.
I found this video very convincing and educational. I knew nothing of the composer.
After thinking about Strauss’ Elektra, specifically, I believe I agree with your premise.
You have helped guide me though the classical world so much, Its good your archives are always there when you take a day off! 🙂
Classical music has made me a softer man, i carry more love and I think the music helps me express that. But I recently came across some heavy metal and my whole body just resisted it! I just felt it expressed hate and I felt aweful for a long time
Depends on what Heavy metal you came across. It is an extremely varied style of music. Only the most extreme linger on hate for the sake of itself, and there are sub-genres of metal that are intricate, intriguing, challenging or just plain entertaining. AND some are quite deeply rooted in Classical inspiration, technique - or both. Hope no one was trying to introduce you to the most brutal so-called metal with the sole intent to shock. That would surely be a turn-off, and a huge disservice to thousands of talented musicians who play heavier or progressive music.
The scherzo of Walton's 1st Symphony is marked 'con malizia'. Would that count as hatred, does it succeed in conveying that emotion and is it successful as great music? It's the nearest I can think of. Another example of musical contempt, which may prove your point, is Rued Langgaard's piece 'Carl Nielsen our great composer', weird even by Langgaard's standards. Indeed, the 'Humoreske' of Nielsen's own 6th symphony might be seen as a sort of parallel to what Spohr was attempting in his final movement as a mockery of contemporary trends - but is it great music in itself?
The two best examples I can think of are that Walton movement 'con malizia' and the scherzo of Shostakovich's Tenth, which allegedly represents Stalin. But even then - they don't sound like hatred! They sound like the things that the composer hates (fear, oppression, violence, bitterness, etc.), not the hatred itself.
On a side note, David, A new Thomas de Hartmann CD is now available containing his Piano Concerto, Symphonie-Poeme No.3, Scherzo-.Fantatique on Nimbus. A few sound samples later and I didn't hesitate.
I have it too. Fun stuff!
Mazel tov on hitting 16,000 subscribers! I’m out of equivalently-numbered Shostakovich symphonies to listen to by way of celebration, so I’ll settle for the orchestral version of the Suite on Verses of Michaelangelo.
Music can express sorrow, sadness, and terror, mourn genocides, deaths, and other crimes, but successfully conveying hatred in a way that isn’t absurd is more of a challenge.
To David and Mr. Hernandez: Maybe I understand your points. Hagen is brought up with "Hasse die Frohen", but what the music tells us not so much his hatred as our own sympathy, the music being the emotional stream of the drama, first shuddering at Hagen's misery, then making the transition to rejoice in Brünnhilde's state of mind. Thank you for interesting reactions!
This is interesting to me. I listen to a lot of metal / industrial music (as well as a lot of Jazz and Classical) and you're absolutely right about music not being able to express hatred without some verbal direction. Metal and industrial are great at expressing anger (ugly, nasty anger at times) but hatred requires directing that angry energy at a particular target. Even Pigface's "The Love Serenade (I Hate You?)" requires someone saying "I hate you" over and over again. Perhaps the title can do some of the heavy lifting, but that's also some form of textual communication of the target in question.
Really appreciate this thoughtful view, and glad you're back to educate, enlighten, and entertain us. Hoping to keep on listening for many years to come.
Does a death growl maybe sound hateful? Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth had (maybe still has) a magnificent growl, that sure sounds scary and could maybe sound "hateful"? Then again the guy himself is as lovely as they get!
@@OperationPhantom I would certainly go into what the growl in music (especially if used sparingly and as an accent) is used to convey. It can be mindless, but usually isn't, and certainly not in OPETH's case. Surely, for a layman, a growl is a growl (same with a shriek): it sounds beastly, and thus disconcerting. To dispute that, one would need to lean on specific cases where such device actually enhances the music.
@@OperationPhantom There's usually some lyrics or what-not to go with it. But again, is it hatred or anger? Two different emotions. I can be angry in general, but hate requires me to focus that energy somewhere. And unless the listener has an idea who the target is then it's just effervescent anger.
@@CraigMaloney Music being abstract and hatred not being a base emotion - it indeed HAS to be directed to something or someone - this is likely forever debatable. Or not. It's just that a really intense growl hardly sounds JUST like an expression of internally directed anger or frustration (to me). It is seemingly confrontational and that aspect of it is externally directed, so... even if the target is unclear, there seems to be one.
Could be my religious upbringing and people warning you about listening to "such bands" come into it as well though :) Then again there are probably christian metal bands that use growls to praise Jesus for all I know.
So we’re not going to a complete works of Spohr box set from Brilliant Classics?
The first two movements sound thrown together at random. The Scherzo has some dynamic range, but it’s a train speeding and slowing down, neither of which happen very fast, and certainly not in his time, when trains were slower than horses.
The finale, well, oh my.
Spohr was the Ned Flanders of the Romantic era, bless him.
Good to see another video from you to tide us over until next week. I was wondering if you were ever going to review the new CD of Marc-Andre Hamelin playing William Bolcom's ragtime pieces. It seems to be getting rave reviews, was wondering what your thoughts were on it (Hamelin has also put out a CPE bach record recently that you may also be interested in).
Yes, I have them.
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc I have been reviewing recent releases--perhaps not the ones you're curious about, but I have been doing it pretty regularly. Ex: the PentaTone Mahler cycle, Poschner's Bruckner cycle, Thomas de Hartmann's orchestral works, and so forth.
@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc I do. However, the new ClassicsToday.com website should be up in a few weeks, and there will be more reviews there too, and those will be exclusively new releases.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Honestly I prefer the repertoire videos to reviews. You're quite the musicologist! The only reason I asked about the new Bolcom/Hamelin record is because I need to know whether or not it's worth it to shell out the big bucks to Hyperion (since they refuse to put their music on streaming services). I normally never buy CDs, but I am a Hamelin fiend.
@@JG_1998 Well that's a different question. Yes, you should buy it. I haven't reviewed it yet but I have heard it and it's wonderful.
Your 1940 slip up, would make a great topic for a future video. The premise being, what if the tend toward 20th Century music was reversed. So in 1840 we had the avante garde, but for the next hundred years composers were working towards tonality.
Do you think that Iago in Verdi's Otello could be said to express hatred? Or perhaps the music expresses jealousy, which is similar to hatred.
I said music without text, specifically.
Here’s a related question I’ve been wanting to ask - does all music necessarily express something? Or is there music which doesn’t express anything except itself? Stravinsky was clearly wrong to apply this to all music, but some of his work really does feel that way at times - something as obscure and eccentric as Les Noces for example. There’s also the whole idea that some music is more emotional, and some is more intellectual. How can that be defined?
I always thought - or at least I interpreted it - that Stravinsky's statement was less about promoting a dry view of music and more a view which dated back to at least the Greeks that objects like music don't have emotional expression - we (humans) ascribe emotions to music when we listen to it, rather.
Stravinsky later disavowed some of what he wrote in Poetics of Music, pleading youthful folly.
This is one of the oldest discussions in "art" music, in fact.
Les Noces is about mechanical preparations for a wedding. It expresses that in its rhythms.
@@SO-ym3zs Indeed, and in literature I would say there is something like a space of possible connotations which arises from all the words and their combinations. What part of that space gets the most emphasis would then depend on a subject’s interpretation. But what that space would look like in music I have far less of an idea. One can form sentence with only one valid interpretation (although you could argue a tautology is not really a valid sentence) but is this possible in music? One of Bernstein’s Norton lectures was about comparing music to poetry and the ways both arise from deep structures, seems like revisiting it could bring some answers although I have no idea how reflective of reality his theory is in the first place.
Thanks for the post Dave! I was having withdrawal symptoms...I think I've just imagined my recording from hell: the Spohr 6th with Malcolm Sargent conducting the LPO circa 1955...
Great video, David. Thank you!
Very interesting. I am reminded of the writing of theologically oriented authors such as C.S. Lewis, that God loves music (as evidenced by its importance in churches, synagogues, etc.) and that the Devil hates music and wants to replace it with continual noise.
Yes, but the the devil gets all the good tunes, it seems.
I could swear I heard in the last bars of Shostakovich's 5th symphony the sound of Shostakovich hitting Stalin on the head with a giant club. Likewise it also could sound like the ghost of Shostakovich hitting Putin on the head!
Good talk, David, as customary. Spohr wrote some violin concertos that I don't think are a complete waste of time, though I rarely revisit them.
I believe Wagner succeeds in doing so, perhaps because he was such a loathsome individual. He also successfully differentiates between anger and hatred in music, as in Wotan at the end of Walküre Act II vs. Alberich in Rheingold after Wotan forcibly snatches the ring from his finger. That snarling motif sure sounds like an effective musical representation of hatred. PS Just came across your talk on Janáček's Sinfonietta. Absolutely brilliant.
I think you may be on to something there. Anger is easy to express in music. Hatred, not so much. But I guess it can be done.
If you go on an extended vacation(2 days), expect your RUclips subscribers to send out a search party. Happy to see you back, and with a great topic. Haydn's 'Farewell' seems more a musical message than hateful. But that's as close as I can get to disproving your thoughtful thesis. If you don't insist on 'great music', there's always Boulez.
I guess we should view Dave's absence from posting youtube videos in dog years and multiply everything by 7. Hence Mr. Hurwitz was gone for 14 days and boy it seemed like an eternity! Welcome back!!
I'm glad to see you back, David. I thought you were at the hospital, or something like that.
Thank you. I do videos from the hospital, so that wouldn't be it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide LOL, that's OCD Dave , BUT dedication too ;)
I'll see your bet of the incapability of music's expression of hatred, David, and raise you onto the incapability of music's expression of indifference---and for the same reason that hate is not the antithesis of love, but indifference is the antithesis of both. 🙂
Off the top of my head, I think much of the music relating to Hagen from Götterdämmerung is a musical expression of hatred. Think of those snarling horns that start of “Hier sitz ich zur Wacht”, or the bit where Hagen kills Gunther. Do you think that represents hatred?
Whose? No, I don't. Without the words, you would never come to that conclusion. The closest the music gets is anger.
A stimulating topic. Clearly Spohr is incapable of expressing distaste or hatred for, let alone mockery of, Beethoven's music.
Emotions such as fear, terror, anger, and catastrophe seem to abound in the purely orchestral music of Mahler, Shostakovich, and Bartok, among others. Their music shows an awareness of humanity's dark side. The second movement of Shostakovich's Symphony no 10 perhaps speaks more about dread and terror than hatred, but aren't those emotions related? More specific emotions like hatred seem to require some extra-musical context,
such as the visible human actors of opera and ballet. What music by itself can convey remarkably well is struggle and transcendence.
Well, yes, but here we have a pretty clear target. Does the finale of Spohr's symphony reveal his dislike of 1840s modern music, as he understood it, or is it simply bad music? I would argue the latter. My point is that we know (or have a very good idea about) what his intentions were, but what came out is junk. And that is what happens when you try to express hatred in music. You get, not hatred, but garbage.
Thank you. It was on the sedate side, but I enjoyed the sounds.
Another one is jealousy. I've never gotten jealous by music itself, the skills of the performer is another story.
This reminds me of when Wynton Marsalis was on Sesame Street. But I think Wynton's point was that music *shouldn't* express anger, not that it *can't* .
Yes, it is in the nature of music to be in touch with love and humanity even if it tries to convey states of drama and outrage. Music and destruction do not match.
That's exactly what I think. People confuse hate with anger, drama, fear etc. but they are not the same as hate.
So glad you're back...although it's pretty sad that you can't take 2, much deserved, days off without the rest of us freaking out, but that should show you how important your work is to us all...(congrats on 16 K subscribers btw)...All of the examples you played proved your point perfectly...watered down Handel and Mozart, not even NEAR Beethoven, and the finale, well I would prefer the Auber, but at least in Spohr's attempt at hatred, he approached something that resembled testosterone! Some of Spohr is good, like you said, but this idea for a symphony was trash
I believe you're right, that hatred is a vacuum of the very things which constitute the core of music. But there are two works which seem to come close: the second movement of the Shostakovich 10th (i.e., the alleged portrayal of Josef Stalin), and moments in Clytemnestra "Dream" and the Finale in Strauss's ELEKTRA...Or is it essentially madness which comes across?
Anyhow, enjoy your vacation!
Violence, nihilistic rage, maybe, but not hatred, I think. Interesting that Shostakovich tried (if that story is true) to depict Stalin, but NOT his "hatred of Stalin." Music can do one, but not the other.
there's a lot of hatred, vendetta, etc in opera. In general there is a greater range of emotions in vocal music than instrumental music that's why I prefer vocal music and opera.
A really interesting idea, David, Thanks as ever for your food for thought , Spohr gets mentioned in a song in The Mikado, paired with Beethoven as if they were equals. Had to ask who he was when I first head the song! So you did piick rather easy target.
You may so well be right, but what about those hammering chords in the central climax in the first movement of Mahler's Resurrection? You may say that is anger and despair, But when played with full force there is a real hatred there for the finality of death and the human condition. If you feel that, then the journey to the conclusion, where we are given hope and assurance that life is not in vain, becomes all the more powerful.
I would also add many sections of the first movement of Shostakovich's 4th. The whole movement is driven by anger at the political situation, sometimes relieved by irony But that anger is fueled by such hatred that he had to withdraw it or risk being put in prison.
Both are hatred of life, rather than directed to any individual. it's not an emotion easily admitted to. It's spoken of by Iago in Verdi's Otello, with a bit of help from Shakepeare and Boito. But I think your can hear it at times behind the music of Mahler and Shostakovich
Anger does not equal hatred. You are anthropomorphizing sounds to suit your own vision of the music. That's fine, of course, but doesn't go beyond you. I disagree completely. "Hatred of life?" No way.
No hatred in music? Have you forgotten Walton' First Symphony, with its marking con malizia - with malice.
Not at all. Take away the title. Would you have guessed? I think not--it's a rather jolly and amiable piece, for the most part.
as I work a lot and I keep time to listen to music, I must admit, although I love what you do, I'm quite happy when you take a break since i have a listening debt of your stuff. you are so prolific! And I wonder if there really ever was a break. I've been listening to rag for several weeks now, thanks to Marc-André Hamelin, for whom with S. Osborne, I consistently buy all publications and am rarely disappointed. Rag is a genre that I don't know well and that I must and would like to explore. If you have any advice on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated.
"...the flaccid phrasing."
"I've used that word before and it may come up again"
No it won't!
LOL!
Hatred??? The good Herr Spohr was surely capable of nothing stronger than a mild bit of tut-tutting comtempt. Surely there are examples from the 20thc avant garde that tried a little harder at it.
Not necessarily.
There is hatred and sarcasm in Liszt's diabolical music. I would also Shostakovich's "Stalin" movement in his 10th, and much of Vaughan Williams 4jh Symphony (less so in his 6th).
Violence, menace, fear--yes--but hatred? I don't think so.
@@DavesClassicalGuide For me it can be hatred, Stalin probably hated most of humanity, that is the way I visualise it, not the effect of his hatred.
@@ruramikael You feel it the way you feel it, but there is no evidence that Shostakovich was trying to depict Stalin's feelings towards his fellow man.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Indeed, we only know it is about Stalin.
Seems that brahms had some very angry moments, eg tragic overture, anger perhaps being an extension of hatred for a given circumstance or object. Reiner's performance comes to mind
Removed opera from the equation, I thought that ballet music could offer some examples. So I though of Romeo after the death of Mercutio, when he says “a plague on both your houses!”. Prokofiev’s Romeo and Juliet has a scene for Romeo deciding to avenge Mercutio.
I love this video and the fascinating thesis you present. I think that you are basically correct, but there are some threats to your thesis.
Hatred is rare in music because there frankly are not many musicians who actually hate. Sometimes musicians get angry, however, and they do express their anger pretty effectively--for example Shostakovich's 8th string quartet, Ice-T's Cop Killer, or even Beethoven's 5th Symphony. If it is a righteous anger, then I guess it becomes a thing of beauty and is not anathema for music to express.
To actually express hatred effectively as a musician, I think you actually have to 1) hate something, and 2) compose a work on a relatively grand scale to create a whole world of contempt fore something in the real world. The one famous work that I can think of is Wagner's Ring Cycle, and only if you believe anti-semitic allegories that have been proposed for it. As a parable against Jewish Plutocracy (which is one way it has been interpreted) the piece may well be an actual expression of hatred with some degree of skillful presentation.
If this is true, it is therefore not impossible to write a hateful piece of music, Spohr failed simply because he was a lousy composer.
The only Spohr I had ever heard until today was from one of his symphonies, in which he appears to have plagiarized the famously rambunctious theme from the finale of Beethoven's Second, but tamed and smoothed out into something anodyne! I guess he wanted to show Beethoven EXACTLY how to be a better composer.
By the way, speaking of dislike of Beethoven, have you ever read Leo Tolstoy's disdainful comments about the Late Quartets and the people who (profess to) love them? Truly reactionary!
Very interesting (and funny!) once again this analysis of "poor" Spohr's music and his (in)ability to create great music because of his, say, inhibitions...
When I think of hatred being expressed through music, my mind immediately conjures up the fiercest, darkest and bileful (death) metal bands actually. Mostly not music I'd listen to for pleasure but that's probably not the point. Largely the subject matter of the songs and the menacing attitude play into this as well of course.
There is the phenomenon of the "death growl" or "grunting", that sounds really "evil" when performed convincingly well. It's probably the sound that (some) humans can make that sounds the most "musically hateful" to me. Though it could still be interpreted mostly as "disgust", since hate is mostly a combination of the basic emotions of anger and disgust.
Enjoy! I’ll see you when I see you again.
Hatred cannot be expressed by classical and other music in my experience, but boring music can elicit feelings of hatred of the music by me. I want to be elated (and all related synonyms), not depressed, by what I hear.
Good morning Dave . What about Shostakovich 10th portrait of Stalin. Since I don't think the composer was in a good place when he wrote the second mvt of mockery , and that he also disliked Stalin .
I have no idea. What about it?
Certainly not within the realm of classical music, it depends on your definition of "hatred", I'd say that *depicting* hatred with instrumentals isn't really hard to do in metal, I'd argue that even the Sad But True intro is ok at it, or any instrumental Doom song is good too, this meme comes to mind lol watch?v=LGvJgtbbuf0 , in metal you can depict it very well (although vocals seal the deal, they aren't mandatory), what is much harder, and maybe impossible, is to *elicit* hatred in the listener (otherwise you would never listen to that kind of music), but, that said, I could show it to my mother and it will elicit disgust, distress and outright hatred before running away or turning it off, not that its deliberate depiction intended to elicit that kind of hateful reaction, but it is what it is. To depict an emotion in music doesn't necessarily mean to foment that emotion on the listener, in the case of anger, fury, hatred, etc, it may even be to "release stress", not to become violent.
In the end, it all comes down to what *is* great music, I love metal and I'll say it is, but I'll say that its greatness derives from a different type of pleasure, one which isn't about melody or joy, and it gets clearer the more "heavy" the subgenre is, the "melodic pleasure" becomes less relevant to its greatness
Usually the "hatred" caused in people who are averse to Metal, is not really caused BY the music (unless it is some kind of gore-death-grind who like to wallow in their mire trying to impress adolescents), but rather by the accidental listener's perception of the music they hear. Or rather even the REPUTATION of a certain style of music, without caring to check it out instead - fully expecting negative and disturbing experience. Sometimes, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Similar to perception of all Pop being "shallow and simplistic", jazz - "too heady" or otherwise niche, etc. There are irritating prejudices about Classical as well. :) It takes patience to reveal to an uninitiated person what is great within a genre.
@@bigg2988 Yeah, it has to do with expectations and tolerance, I'd say everyone has a "heaviness threshold" which if it's passed, it's becomes distressing, otherwise the US government wouldn't have used metal as a legit form of torture coupled with other more "classical" ones
Regarding the listener's subjectivity, it can be just prejudice stemming from ignorance and a passive assimilation of a "conservative" normalcy which includes many other things too, not just the "that's satanic". Hard Rock/Metal has the added particularity that the person can (wrongly) listen to it from the point of view "it's yelling/shouting at me", which anyone who listens to it knows full well that the one singing and shouting is oneself along the singer, even if you don't make a noise.
the Mozart style seems almost Schumann
Hi, new to the channel and I find this topic fascinating. What about the fugue from Liszt's piano sonata in B minor? To my ears it contains mocking, contempt and rage--does that add up to hatred?
Welcome aboard! I don't think it does, but it's one hell of a fugue!
Hah, the "Mozart period" sounds like an uncannily perfect cross between early Schumann and early Schubert.
Love is what I like hate is what I dislike so music that I dislike is about hatred .but it is subjective.
Dave you deserve some time off! Go have some and enjoy it 👍🏻
Thank you, I learned something today. I'm wondering what other music pieces are based upon hatred. Can't think of any.
Oh wow, i thought you has abandoned youtube. Do you not post any more videos?
Just taking a few days off.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well deserved ! Coming to something when you have to almost apologize for a brief holiday, even doctors are allowed them without having to explain, LOL, - but on a serious and positive side, - your subs love your work! Peace - Gus ;)
Ahh, I've been waiting for you to weigh in on Spohr, and this did not disappoint! I actually like the symphonies well enough, but what you say here is right on, especially about the toothless 6th symphony, which commits the unforgivable sin for a parodic piece of being UNFUNNY.
Re: hatred in music, I disagree, I think music is perfectly capable of expressing this emotion--perhaps even *well suited* for it, since music is so great at capturing the irrational. My mind immediately turns to Gotterdammerung, all the music associated with Hagen, which is pure black hatred in musical form--and which later corrupts Brunhilde's music, esp. at the end of Act II. Plus, I can think of plenty of really great film music depicts the emotion of hatred.
I specifically ruled out music with text--because we can't separate the two meaningfully.
Hurwitz did go over the Historical Symphony in a video about musical parodies
Oh, I don't know, there's plenty of purely orchestral music in Gotterdammerung that pulses with bile and spite, and I don't think you need words at all to understand it. (Assuming the listener is acculturated w/ the general norms and style topics of 19th century musical expression). Similar thing goes for the Prelude for Act 2 of Parsifal, I'd contend: pure, unfiltered loathing.
And even when there are words in The Ring, its generally the orchestral underscore that most eloquently articulates the characters's true mental state, no? And it seems right that Wagner is the man for the job: if there ever were a composer who knew how to depict hate in music, it would be the most hateful composer in history.
I suppose I just don't agree that any emotional state can be categorically ruled out for musical representation, hatred or otherwise. Music is capacious that way.
That's why rap was invented
Can't speak for why it was invented, but today's rap does display a lot of hatred and, well, vulgarity. Truly one-of-a-kind!
The Rondo Burleske of Mahler’s 9th comes pretty close though: a scathing portrait of his contemporaries in the Viennese elite. I detect all kinds of hatred being conjured at the anti-semitism Mahler encountered. And I read it as a catharsis whereby the grace of the Adagio becomes of heightened significance.
Have you ever listened to Eastern-European black metal? What about Anaal Nathrakh?
I wish people would stop brining up metal. I really don't see the point. Yes, it's loud and nasty, but without the loud and nasty words its just simply stuff--it has about as much business expressing emotion as tree falling on your house. Do you think the tree cares, however much noise it makes or damage it does?
@@DavesClassicalGuide :)
In my opinion, the ONE emotion that no one wants to intentionally represent or communicate in music (or filmmaking or playwriting, etc.) is boredom. That doesn’t mean we can’t be bored listening to music, in fact we’re somewhat frequently bored. But that’s different than writing a piece of music intentionally designed to elicit the human emotional state of boredom from the listener. I do know a few films with scenes designed specifically to bore an audience (to communicate that human emotional state) but they are rare and, as you might expect, don’t have a wide audience. Hollywood in particular will represent boring acts like waiting, playing chess, painting, clothes washing and baseball as highly action oriented activities with conflict, tension, victories and “entertainment value.”
Anyway, I can’t think of a piece of music that intentionally tries to bore the listener as its emotional goal.
The beggining of "Red Shift" by Lois V. Vierk it's to me a great musical representation of tedium.
Sibelius' Scaramouche starts with a depiction of a gathering of bored aristocrats. Maybe that's why no one likes it.
Shostakovich wanted the first movement of his 15th string quartet played in such a way the audience would leave from boredom. But being the first movement it doesn’t make a lot of sense he actually wanted to achieve that. Perhaps he wanted the players to avoid expressing emotions that they otherwise might do.
The very beginning of Lutoslawski's cello concerto kind of pokes around boredom, or some kind of torpor. Of course the whole piece isn't like that, it's just the starting point!
Fascinating thoughts, as always! Would you consider the Nazi juggernaut episode of the first movement from Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony an example of hatred expressed in music? The banal theme (possibly from Lehar) is repeated and ratcheted to almost obscene heights (or depths). In the Interrupted Intermezzo of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, the same Shostakovich theme is parodied. In both cases, the music was made to sound "so bad that it was good". Valid cases of musical hatred?
No. The Bartok is simply humorous, the Shostakovich, well, who knows?
Isn't there something of hatred in some of the mid-period Shostakovich?
Resignation, despair and dystopia for sure.
Philip Glass's Akhnaten, second act, first scene is about hatred. Without words.
Perhaps, but is that what the music expresses itself?
@@DavesClassicalGuidePhilip Glass explains this in his first book . Antother examples: the sorcerer's apprentice, the moment when the brooms are chopped to pieces with an axe. Or Wotan's Rage from Die Walküre. I love your talks! Make me a better listener!
@@VuykArie But if you didn't have the explanation, the music wouldn't tell you anything like that by itself.
Brahms’s Ballade op 10 no 1. The music is inspired and reflects the structure of the the classic murder ballade “Edward”. It’s a story full of hatred, and sadness, where a mother questions her son about the blood on his knife. Eventually the son confesses to killing his father, but he also ends cursing his mother, implying she also was involved in the murder.
Um, yes, but that says nothing about what feelings Brahms thought he was expressing in the music (obviously). I also think you kind of inserted the "hatred" into the story for the sake of trying to make the point.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, yes. I was trying to make the point that also music with a program can express hatred, not only music with words. I think that this story is genuinely about hatred. We don’t know the reason of the murder, but we know that the story ends with the son sending to hell the mother for her bad advise. The music reflects all those rhetoric questions, and builds up to the moment the son admits to the murder, and curses the mother. There must be a lot of hate in the air if the mother pushed the son to kill his father, and the son at the end resents the mother. Knowing the story, the music seems to match those feelings. However, if by music “without text” you mean that music without words, and without a program, cannot express hatred, then I think you are right. I don’t think there is a way to distinguish anger, from hatred, or something ominous.
@@ManuManu-lm6xh Your comments are rife with assumptions unsupported by the sound and structure of the music itself. You are simply telling a story based on the title of the piece, but it says nothing about what the music does.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I’ll try to explain what I see in the music, at the best of my capability.
There is no overall one to one correspondence between the text and the music, otherwise Brahms would have written a lieder. Nevertheless, Brahms wanted to let us know that the music is inspired by the text, and this authorise us to see music and text together.
In my opinion, there are sections of the text that can be perfectly matched with the music. While there other parts where the music summarises what happens in the text.
The Andante begins with an apparently quiet conversation between the mother and the son: it’s all “piano”, but it hides something ominous. The first theme in D minor could be seen as the mother’s rhetorically questioning the son, with her allusive hints. I say allusive, because the theme ends with two empty parallel octaves, followed by two echos in pianissimo. There are no harmonies, and this leaves us waiting for an answer. But there is no answer, and the question is repeated again, this time with some subtle change in the harmony, that gets more frantic.
This time Edward, the second theme, answers. The tempo becomes a little more animated “poco più moto”, and we are in B flat, far far away from D Minor. Edward gives his elusive answers. There are four big slurs in the score, four musical phrases, four answers.
Like in the text, the conversation goes on, and everything is repeated again pretty much without any variation.
So far the music follow the text.
First theme
"Why does your sword so drip with blood, Edward, Edward, Why does your sword so drip with blood, And why so sad go you O?"
Second theme "O I have killed my hawk so good, Mother, mother, O I have killed my hawk so good, And I had no more but he O”
It follows a more animated section, the Allegro where, in my opinion the music summarise the rising tension in the text. This section represents the passing time, and the truth that is emerging. The second theme, Edward’s theme, appears in a different register of the keyboard. There is a continuo crescendo, and an obsessive accompaniment of repeated triplets. As the sound gets louder, both hands moves far away, in the opposite direction of the keyboard, and the piano sounds like an orchestra. In the crescendo, the harmony changes for the first time to D Major, but when we finally get to the climax, we go back to B flat, and to the Edward’s theme. The theme is presented as it appeared the first time, but now in double forte. Edward is confessing, and cursing the mother. All the resentment is exposed. Edward keeps talking. Again the big slurs in the score highlight his phrases. The theme is always double forte, over an obsessive drone of triplets, a B flat at the bass. He probably keeps accusing the mother.
We have now reached the climax in the text, which coincides with the shocking final revelation.
The music however doesn’t end here, with a bang, like the text, but goes back to the andante. Only the first theme is repeated, now sottovoce, and with triplets at the bass, that also conceal the dissonances in the harmonies. The music ends in diminuendo ma a tempo, back to the ominous atmosphere of the beginning.
Of course, I can be wrong, it may not be all about hatred, but then what is about the climax in the music, if not the confession and the hatred?
I hope I was able to argue that it’s not unreasonable to assume that in this music there is a representation of a highly dysfunctional family, and that much of the story told is about hatred.
@@ManuManu-lm6xh You were very able to argue it, and I appreciate your taking the time to do it. I still believe, however, that you are merely telling a story, that your matching of the music to specific events in that story is completely without foundation, and that the introduction of the idea of "hatred" to a specific moment in the work comes entirely from within you, and from neither the music nor the story. We are free to disagree in this respect, and I admire both the intensity with which you listened as well as your willingness to share your viewpoint so gracefully. Thank you.
19:14 "...chains of dominant seventh chords that are supposed to sound dramatic" 😂😂😂 Love it! This inspires me to take a greater look into what I listen to rather than vaguely describing it as "lively," "profound" etc.
Forgive this pedantry... but they are actually diminished seventh chords
@@timothybridgewater5795 forgiven! I understand why it can be off-putting as they *are* two different chords.
This is probably much like a computer would compose or compile different style essentials.
I was thinking the same thing. Spohr’s music sounds like it was composed by some algorithm.
I listened to a RUclips video the other day, Happy Birthday in the style of 10 composers. It's much more convincing than Spohr's bad attempts
Another fab video, but ,sir, Spohr didn't invent the baton conducting, even if he claims to be the first to use it in London
Close enough!
Hi, David: Have you ever done a video on Delius? I have never been able to get into his music. What you said about Spohr is how I feel about Delius.
I have. I enjoy Delius.
Well it's a good thing that you posted this video. I missed your announcement regarding a small break and I was getting worried something bad has happened.
As far as the topic is concerned I think you are on to something. It's important to make a small distinction between different feelings: hate is not the same as anger. Hate includes anger among other feelings, but hate connotes other sentiments as well, like contempt and certain bitterness. It's only human to get angry every now and then, but hate is something a lot more vile. Anger will eventually be pacified, but hate is something more loathsome, something you sustain yourself, something that slowly eats you alive. This may sound romanticizing but I think music transcends that kind of negative feelings. Music is able to express anger (although in its abstract nature it's really hard to tell is the music depicting anger or a storm...), but I agree that music is free of hate.
Maybe I'm being naive, but I genuinely think that music brings out the best in people. As a person Wagner was undoubtedly as obnoxious as they get. I realize that this is a contested topic, but in my view Wagner's works don't express his most hateful views. Perhaps it's only due to my naïveté, but I like to think that there were both good and bad angels in him, and his so called good angels are represented in his music and bad angels remain mostly in his more that dubious pamphlets.
I think art can express the best of the less perfect beings, an artist can surprass his own works and improve their styles, but don't improve themselves as persons, thats what I think about Wagner, his music is just the best he could have bringed, this can apply to many composers, after all artist are human beings, and no human is perfect, but they can create works that can overcome us.
As for expression of emotions: you're assuming that the listeners identify with the composer's viewpoint. An audience can also develop its own dynamics, especially as a crowd, and they can be nasty. Under the right (or wrong) circumstances, a mob will generate any emotion.
Hmmm... I don't know, I feel like von Zimmerman's Die Soldaten conveys malice, wrath, anxiety, and perhaps even hatred rather well. I dare say depending on the performance that Weill's Aufsteig und Fall der Stadt Mahagonny is dripping with malice and ends with a rather hate- and despair-filled finale "Nothing will help him or us or you now!"
Stick to music without words. That is what I was discussing.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ahhhh okay
Uh, Dave...ever hear of a Beethoven composition entitled "Rage (=hatred) over a lost penny." Even though Beethoven wrote it sorta tongue in cheek, its musical frantic writing was meant to express anger, even if it is in a jocular frame of mind. Also, the opening bars of Brahms First Piano Conterto...if that isn't raw anger at its height, I don't know what is.
Anger and hatred are not the same thing. I have been angry at friends and loved ones many times, but I don't hate them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide As soon as I posted I realized that I misinterpreted what you said and were trying to convey. Clearly there are many compositions that you listen to which make you deeply sense anger internally as in my examples above. Hatred, however, is a different kind of emotion, a chameleon of sorts that can come in many different flavors. And because of this it tends to be a very personal phenomenon. For example, I can hate someone and internalize this hatred through hidden sarcasm or jealousy. No one would be the wiser. To this end jeolousy and sarcasm...especially MY jealousy and sarcasm...are almost impossible to portray musically. People can take their hatred to a clearly visible extreme with physical assault. This act can be portrayed musically but the underlying emotion of THEIR hatred would be hard to extract and convey musically. So basically what I think would be a better way to make your point would be to say that how we internalize hatred in these many forms is almost impossible to convey musically...unless, of course, there is a vocal text accompanying the music. Then the librettist may have a chance to convey a sense of hatred in this regard. Operas try to do this all the time...don't you agree?
@@thejils1669 I like the way I said it just fine, thank you.
@@DavesClassicalGuide K...
It may be impossible to really express hatred in music, but boy some composers come awfully close: Allan Petterssen for one. And of course there's a lot of music that stirs up hatred in listeners. ...Kars for Kids...
Everyone I know (including me) really hates the Kars for Kids song, which means it's got to be one of the most successful pieces of its kind every written...
I was starting to get withdrawal symptoms.
Maybe one has to move away from the classical mainstream to find hatred but no piece of music expresses outrage so splendidly as "Fables of Faubus " by Charles Mingus which is one extended raspberry ( or you may call it a Bronx cheer! ) against the unlamented Governor of Arkansas, Orval Faubus, who tried to enforce segregation in the state's schools. Mingus issued a version on his own label with lyrics that fully express his venom, but the earlier instrumental version on "Mingus Ah Um" from its snarling opening figure, tells us all we need to know.
I would agree in part but also disagree in part. Music (or poetry), by its nature, is of a plane different than raw emotion. By that constraint, I agree with you. But I also think Music need not be confined to that plane. Imagine a new version of 4'33" where the pianist comes out spews forth the most disgusting, insulting, hate-filled words to the audience. Its not the Don Rickles funny insults with the apology at the end. Is that Music? It could be performance art. One might refer the pianist to some sort of anger management class on the theory that raw anger is bad. What if someone took George Bernard Shaw insults and set them to a song cycle; his words and inflections certainly communicate the same level of contempt and hatred as my anger management pianist. But, it seems so artful that it's diminished of its rawness and elevated by its artfulness. Then is hate musical? I think it depends on how far you want to bend the idea of music. Or maybe how far you're willing to let music bend to hate. I might offer the first movement of the Shostakovich 13th; its is hateful; its not pleasant to listen to; its powerful and raw (even without the words) and I think most would consider it music. My 3¢
I dunno, Dave. In a blind listening test of that second movement, I probably would have guessed either Mozart or very early Schubert. I think Spohr did a pretty good job of a Mozart parody. But…in the scherzo, he totally failed in capturing Beethoven’s sense of humor and irony.
Anybody else picking up an Elgar vibe when Spohr tries to sound like Mozart?
Wishing you a great recuperation time where some of us will resort to (re)discover some of your video treasures of the past.
The topic of hate in music is intriguing and holds potential for a lenghty discussion. For my part as a traditionally rooted listener who cherishes melody line and harmony much of what came with the Second Wienna Scool and thereafter; twelvetone composition etc. represents a kind of de facto hatred towards the average publics expectations of what "good music" is about, and turned classical music into a theoretical battlefield between academics and avant-gardists against traditionalists (count me in).
So what if the reaction among some listeners to modern compositions is repulsion and disgust? Couldn't the music in this case be said to trigger (a kind of) hate even if this was not the intention by the composer?
I don’t think hatred is at all being expressed in that music. The composers in the Second Viennese School were continuing a sort of evolution of tonality that spanned from the classical era, to the romantic, to the late romantic, where harmony was getting increasingly more complex and people eventually thought of new systems of tonality. They still appreciated and even venerated Mozart and Brahms. If their music triggers hatred in the mind of a listener, it’s not because the music is expressing hatred, it’s because of the intellectual prejudices and opinions of the listener.
Absolutely @@markmurphy7870 and that I why I stress that it is presumably not the intention of any modern composers to arouse hatred towards music as such. However I think it is a fact that modern compositions frequently trigger feelings of repulsion and irritation with audiences who feel that it does not pay off emotionally or intellectually to decipher the complexity of the work in question.
And in such cases it is less relevant if the composer venerates the classical composers before him/her.
How about "Woe to him! He shall perish!" from Part 2 of Mendelssohn's Elijah? (There are other movements from the Elijah and St. Paul oratorios that seem to express powerful hatred.)
I'll say it again: we're talking about textless music. If you didn't know what the words were, what could you say the music, by itself, expresses?
@@DavesClassicalGuide If I didn't know English, I would still hear hatred in the voices. With the vocal part entirely removed, it would sound less hateful, but still sound angry and menancing.
@@patrickhackett7881 Which is another thing entirely.
Actually, Spohr sounds like fine music while doing something else, such as looking at the moon through a telescope. Wallpaper.