@checkmate8849try both out and find which one you think feels better. I love both just depends what you might like. Overall if you're purely worried about balance I think dota wins
ikr this stupid kid crying about how tower hitting him while there's creep and crying why high ground is so tough in early mid game. It's a most balanced game. both side gets enough chances to cover up there mistakes. If you want less time easy game go play turbo rather than complaining.
What he means is that in Dota you have all the characters unlocked from the start, you can try them all out, which improves the experience for a casual player.
@Capricius in dota you have everything unlocked right away every hero, in league you have to grind points to get them or pay with real money to unlock heroes
Glyth, First destroyed tower glyth, barracks glyth, t4 glyth, buybacks, creep skipping, and 5mins later one extra glyth and buybacks. Wow, if your opponent is not an idiot, you‘ll have to play farming simulator for an extra 30 minutes just to end a winning game
@boxanskit4 doesn't give glyph, destroying the highground Tower doesn't give glyph either, is the racks that do. If you really are strugling to push highground then you don't have the advantage you thought you had and you don't deserve the free win.
Yeah his take about high ground is bad ngl. It's one of the things that makes Dota a vastly better game. You can come back, if you lose lane the game isn't just immediately over because you can't contest Baron or Drake and they don't just immediately wipe your towers and base and end the game. If the game is lasting 60 minutes, you weren't winning as much as you thought you were.
@boxanski Kill a pawn, start making a position, prepping castle preparation. Wow, if your opponent is not an idiot, you'll have to keep pressuring him for another 30 moves just to end a winning game.
Dota's tower aggro is actually extremely consistent, you just need to know how it works! It's one of those things you just have to learn, but it is 100% controllable
even knowing the full system personally it's still annoying. Luckily towers are more brutal for the armor buff they give their team than their damage so it hardly matters
there is 1 element i find uncontrollable about towers and its switching its aggro by a-clicking my own creep. it literally doesnt work sometimes and i have to spam it for it to work. been playing 13 years and its always been like this
@ponytail336 You get used to it. After playing 10k hours, it feels like second nature to me. I queue in my mind what it will attack next almost all the time when im under tower, without much effort.
@NakulaKaufmanassuming there are no other enemies in the tower range, and the creeps are targeting the tower, this happens because you are the closest unit when you a click your own creeps it resets your aggro and your attack will now reset to the nearest target which is now the tower itself and since you are now the closest target targeting the tower, the tower aggro is reset and sets to you again go to demo mode, spawn a creep wave and hit the tower walk slightly close to the tower than the creeps and reset aggro, it will not work now walk further away and do it again voila
@olgagaming5544I dont think so. I recently have seen another player who just started playing DotA, and they said that it was too incovinient for them to play with map on the left, so they swapped it
High ground defense is an integral part of Dota and gives a comeback chance to the losing team. It is just one of the comeback mechanics integrated into the game. The art of hg defense is beautiful, when you are losing and you defend from your hg successfully and win the game, that feeling is surreal.
Not happening much in higher ranks tho, early/mid game most important and then just snowball. Thats why i love legend-ancient games. Cant stand playing on my main divine 4, i regret grinding it…
Idk maybe for someone from League it is so. For me after 13years of dota it feels terrible. Okay we lost 100%, they all have 5k hp and we have no damage and our carry is 10k networth with 1 save item, its mathematecally impossible to win. Still teammates throw skills at waves and press gliph so the game goes on for 15 more minutes of pure struggle with buybacks and creep skipping. And reverse when u play some magic damage midlaner and have 20 kills for 20 minutes ur unkillable in teamfights but enemy have good waveclear so the game goes on for an hour and u still win because u oneshot anyone. overall comeback mechanics in dota are too much i feel. It always make me laugh when in mid lane i kill enemy at lvl 6 and get like 30% exp to lvl 7 and 200 gold, then he comes back, get 2 creeps for lvl 6 then kills me and get lvl 7 insta and 400 gold. Like man we are 200 exp and 200 gold apart hes not that far behind. Or if u play supp on a winning team and for killing u with kda 1/8/8 enemy carry gets 400-500 gold then u kill him and get 210 gold. Now i see that they are losing but still maybe its too much when enemy carry costs 1 creep wave? Exp is even funnier, it is pretty common to lose with team kills 15/30 and winning a teamfight gives you 2-3 lvl. Man i really sucked for a whole game and now my lvl is higher then enemy midlaner with 7/1 kda
@WhitePerson-of course it doesn't happen much but it gives you a chance, draft has to be like that which is suitable for hg defense. I myself lost to hg defense a few times and also won by defending successfully and making a comeback across my dota 2 experience of 10 years
@kavalierdernachtno game is perfect but the higher ground actually gives you an edge, a shot at defending better, but your draft has to be like that which has strong hg defense, otherwise it will not make a huge difference
For dota players its not a problem. But for other ppl this gameplay isnt cool. 40 min every game u can trying destr t3 for lose game cuz someone dive. U can die 27 time and game dont punch for that. U can use tower protect buyback or ur team can wave clear before tower die. In league if u die after 20 min u can lose game instantly. It takes 1 min to travel from your t3 to enemy throne with demolition of all towers
There should always be a price for mistake. But u can keep dying and nothing will change. Still can use protection buyback and delete waves. Its not a main fame meachanic. This is a boring and annoying action. Even with a 30k advantage you cant finish the game in 10 minutes
@benedictli8673 Ok, comeback after you played some and are not just repeating bs you read from other salty league players. Most matches are not like that. Yes its always possible to flip the game, but its not easy nor that frequent. A team that knows how to push (most teams outside very, very low tier) will take t3 in no time, and defending against a big advantage will most often end in a team wipe and quick finish, once people know what they are doing. Somehow you guys turn a chance to flip the game into "no punishment for mistakes", absolute joke, cope, and embarrassing attempt at defending your lesser game. Also skill issue.
@apocako I mean he isnt totaltly wrong ,its a game play balancing preference. There needs to be a middle ground for punishing mistakes and translating that into wins. LoL also has had a problem with this most recently to be exact, getting an advantage isnt what it used to be previously. But there is some truth to the game, Dota is a much more macro focused game therefore fundamentally its not as punishing vs LoL where you can die once in lane and literally just lose in higher elos, mainly from jg interaction. Because there are a lot of checks and balances to expect. If you are used to dota you probably dont see any problem with the comeback mechanics, and players of LoL do complain about snowballing every season, which is why riot tries and continues to push for changes for it. Regardless, there has to be some comeback mechanics or there would be no point in playing the game to the full length, just pick early game characters and flip everything. Dota's might just be too forgiving to the average LoL player who doesn't understand where the real leads in Dota come from
@Cosmic_42 people say this nonsense but there are always overcentralizing metas that get very stale and valve takes forever to update it out, and when they do that strategy is gone for another eternity, instead of just getting backseated case in point, we just had helm of the dominator meta, among other things and still no major update to the game after TI
and this is excluding wintraders, horrible matchmaking, matchfixing, bots, pro players griefing, etc if you have fun playing and watching it casually, its good (assuming you play against other casual players lol), but if you take it seriously, you may get brain damage like me
@CapitanDePlai Vanguard. It's a root-level (means absolute unrestricted access to the system) 'anticheat' they have. And since it's closed-source and have developers NDA'd, it can perform any tasks developers were told to built into it. It's impossible to learn what it does. I had to use a spare PC to run the game
-if you attack your creeps the tower wiill stop hitting you. -you can aggro the enemy creeps by right clicking any other enemy hero on the map. - You can drop or sens to backpack ítems before using mana boots or similar to restore more mana/health - -
notably, even if the creep isn't in deny range (and therefore you can't actually hit it or deal damage to it), simply issuing the command to attack the un-attackable creep will swap tower aggro.
Unless you have triggered the more intense aggro by attacking an enemy hero within 500 (or is it 300?) units of the tower, at which point you have to leave that radius to be able to lose aggro. Dear god it's so complicated for new players lol
You usually swap with defensive item like black king bar or linken sphere So they just waste all of their ults on you, and when you revive both you and your team are ready to go
@weaponizedautism3269 sometimes put bkb in backpack can be a mistake because it will stay on cooldown few seconds when you respawn.. that can cause to get chain stunned to death.. but that is depend on the enemy or your teammate to save u
@weaponizedautism3269 up to u, but from my experience u blow the bkb charge before you die first time on you aegis. Thats just and old rule for me as a dota player. I dont know why but that just make you win the fight. You also wanna use bkb on ex. PA before u go in, in that sense it make sense becouse u wanna win the fight before u die, or get stunned. If u die then go bkb they will prolly know it as well, and your team might be dead. Think about it :)
@weaponizedautism3269 Nah just swap something less important like boots. You keep your defensive item, you don't need to die just because you have aegis and not having it can remove you from the fight entirely. Edit: Also people will just click on you and see you have aegis and not blow their entire load on you. Don't assume that your enemy will be dumb.
@tlee3205 it's not even a bad idea, until you try it and put it into practice to see what the problems are (IE, treant can't really farm fast enough to get it, doesn't get enough benefit once they do finish it), but experiments like this are how the Dota meta changes! You're not the first and won't be the last to try something like this, and maybe some patch in the future could make it viable. Weirder things have happened in Dota.
As a former league player, we exist. You do not have to install the game again, you do not have to have riot software running on your pc. There are more important and much more entertaining things than league of legends to do and play.
8:59 but that's exactly what I love about dota! No matter how much you're losing by, there's always a reason to keep trying instead of going "gg go next", because you might just catch the enemy throwing the high ground push, allowing you to turn the tides!
i've been in so many matches where the enemy just start taunting saying "ez game" only for them to lose after a rage dieback lol. the really long death timers really forces you to play like you only have one life and it's what makes it so intense.
this. In dota there are rules how to play from disadvantage and how to play from the lead. The game doesn't play itself. You want to win -> you have to know how to win, how to finish the game, you have to know what items to buy, what objectives to take, map control etc.
Also good to note - Valve didn't say "go 2 top 2 bot", and they don't force lanes and roles like League does. Back in the day it was a 3:1:1 split with both supports babysitting the carry, and the offlaner being happy if allowed to sniff experience. Players figured some two heroes combos can survive a trilane, and eventually a 2:1:2 became the standard - but even still it's not unheard of for a support to migrate to midlane to aid mid with a losing matchup, or a trilane happening, or both supports roaming all the time leaving all cores alone on their lane. You can do that in dota - in league the moment you are mid instead of bot as support you get pinged and get the "Lane swap detected! Please leave the area!". Because you got out of the perfectly organized way league developers want you to play. Double jungle sounds fun? It did - so league force locked smite onto just jungler role - leaving the meta is a big no-no! Bad player - go back to your designed lane and role!
League definitely forces lanes and roles nowadays, but originally the game was in a similar situation. Players created the Solo Top / Jungle / Mid / ADC / Support distribution themselves around the end of season 1 and beginning of s2. Same with lane swaps in around season 3
Valve did kill early game jungling by removing the 30-seconds initial spawn and making the jungle creeps less valuable. Before that patch creeps would spawn at 00:30, 01:00 and every minute after that. The 3-second mark hits the timer of side lanes creeps meeting if not being blocked.
@jasonha4489 I was there for the season 1 chaos... It was beautiful - Tristana Twisted Fate top? No problem! Yi Nidalee bot? Sure! I think it was M5 who popularized jungle as a role in the youth of LoL e-sports
Also I think as well, when we talk about tri lanes etc, and lane mechanics, is that valve did try to implement a 2-1-2 lane, by making jungle creeps spawn at 1 minute instead, reducing exp gains from stacks. But the most fundamental change was the introduction of the tp gates, as it used to be a big deal about lane matchups, where teams would run up and down the river to guarantee the non dumpster match up, and so tri lanes are no close to impossible in the pure sense, as it's a player is no longer stuck in the lane after they tp to it, they can now quickly swap sides. The other major thing the gates do is make it more beneficial for heroes who want to roam early, makes it much easier to use tp for mid, and gate for the other side lane, rather than be forced to only roam to mid or be stuck on an 'island' after tping to the other side lane. Because of this new extremely effective potential to roam across map with little punishment for failing the gank. It is now much more beneficial to gain xp and levels in a duo lane while looking for gank opportunities. If they were to remove the ganks or put a "timer" on when they're available, I think tri lanes would be more viable and may become a off meta option when the draft is extremely lost. So while Dota doesn't force such 2-1-2 matchups they do heavily encourage what they think is best. And most healthy for the game (surprised they haven't changed/removed MKs mischief courier hunting yet). I think this design concept of encouragement and not forcing is what makes Dota lanes so interesting historically and I do hope they do put less emphasis on the 2-1-2 lane dynamics and do make changes to allow tri lanes to be viable, as for a dedicated jungle I'm a bit sketchy on as it is extremely hard to balance (see Veno earlier this year) as with map size it can be extremely hard to punish junglers and then one team based on hero selection now has 4 individual xp sources compared to 3.
best part about dota is how sandboxy it is. all the tech like pulling, stacking, roles, etc. were all discovered and decided by players. you are free do w/e u want in this game
Exactly. That was the beauty of Dota. The versatility, the room for creativity. Almost any hero can be made into any role through leveling and itemization. Tons of items with active abilities. But this also became a problem over time. Everything devolved into formulaic builds, unfixable imbalances. I haven't played Dota for a long time, but that annoying Razor, which requires an item to vampirize ability damage, simply can't be countered in almost every game. Now some smart alecks will come running and say there are items that counter this, like Skadi, Shiva, Urn... Really? By the time you buy those, your base will be burning. And then there are all those one-shot builds, like Astral+Dagon...
@Пень1Бук1 That was a long time ago, the bloodstone old Razor shard build. Those were some scary times but rest assured Razor has been in the gutter for almost a year now.
Valve has respected the identity in how Dota is played for the most part. There are core mechanics and behavior of this game that haven't changed since warcraft 3 Dota. Sometimes even item builds haven't varied that much. Earthshaker who's team is ahead wants to rush a blink dagger is as old as the game.
wth i played and watch tourney since twin gate was implemented and i didnt know it uses mana till i read this comment. u learn something new in dota everyday
@hastehamstercute4444 It used to be free at first, then they added a mana cost because it was essentially allowing free ganks/defenses by heroes with summoned units (ench/chen were the main culprits).
in dota, i love how you can just adapt and transition into other roles. i was playing as hoodwink the other day and had to build damage items to compensate for our lack of physical damage. eventually, we ended the game with my support metric being 10 and having damage items on my inventory lmao.
I was playing dead lock with my friend playing support, he got soul advantage while I died. I told him to transition into spirit damage, went to be the top damage of the team
Dota noob here, you're so right that when I was on a losing streak (I'm mainly an offlaner), the pause suggestion gave me the "Often the best way to learn a Hero's weaknesses is to play a match as them.- " tips. Don't know if I'm supposed to be mad but the game sure was speaking facts.
@YantoWest offlaners are personally the most fun roles for me. you dont need much gold to come online and generally just need boots, some small defensive items (like bracer, etc.) and a blink dagger to make some plays happen. if you're on a losing streak against their carry, my main advice for you is to play safer (not aggressive) and be around your supports, looking for easy kills. if you got time, you should try to learn about what to do when you're behind on gold and exp! some heroes like lion will often opt for a more defensive approach with glimmer cape first before a blink dagger when their team is behind. glimmer being a defensive item, while blink is more of an offensive tool. carries behind on gold and exp will want to be helped by their supports, instead of trying to get a solo kill. tanks leaving fights much sooner, etc. it's just about balancing what you can and can't do depending on your advantage and disadvantage.
Press "A" and then click any friendly creep in tower range and the tower will stop attacking you. Same principle as when denying creeps, but the tower-trick works on creeps with any amount of health
it never pretends to be nice, it in fact abuses you, reduces you to nothing and when you are nothing, you join others and become something and suddenly you realise you are a family in moments of pure bliss
league is fun but dota is the better competitive game. problem is dota sacrifices a lot of moment to moment enjoyment to be the better competitive game
primarly because of every game you get 3-4 screaming russians in voice chat. valve should've region locked the game just like in league. i dont recall ever meeting a russian in league, let them suffer in their own piss
@whiskoo9941 Hard disagree, I stopped playing league and went full dota because I find it much more fun moment to moment because you're never borderline afk like a lot of the time when creeps are dead or you're losing lane in league. In dota you can always do something due to how the jungle works and map mobility, and the more you engage your brain the more interaction opportunities appear.
@sttate i see what you mean, but also this goes for both sides of the argument. often times games in dota just stall out, 10-20 minutes of both teams just pushing waves and farming jungle. this can happen in league too, but its only ever 3 minutes waiting for dragon or baron spawn. even in a 1 sided stomp in dota, pushing highground can take 10+ minutes because of fortify, buy backs and characters that can so easily split push. turbo mode population goes to show how many more people dont enjoy the absurd length of time that games can take. however, what i was considering momentn to moment was on a micro scale, not a macro scale. there is so much more nuance and outplay potential in every single fight in league than even the highest level of fight in dota. characters in league are designed to have counterplay built in for this very reason, many characters have skillshots, others have mobility to dodge the skillshots, everyone has flash to outplay. its the reason why in a professional game where a team like t1 is down 10k gold, its not over, they can just be the better players and win sometimes. moment to moment fights are infinitely more fun and satisfying in league than dota, because most dota fights boil down to hero select, items bought and positioning+vision. there is very little room for actual mechanical skill and outplay in dota fights in part due to how little skillshots and mobility there is and bkb as an item, fights are most often decided by the minutes before the fight and not actually what happens within it. earthshaker will blink in and press r. tidebreaker will blink in and press r. phoenix will q in and press r. slardar will blink in and press q. every single carry will press bkb and click someone. all these things are just a given in a dota fight. it doesnt feel good to pilot your character like it does in league, half because the turn around speed can make movement clunky, and the other half that mechanical skill cant really be used to prove to others that youre better than them(with a few exceptions like meepo) thank you for attending my ted talk
Definitely as you get better at dota and climb the ranks, games end faster. Can't remember the last time I had a game over 60mins. Still never gonna be as quick as most LoL games, but they do get quicker the better the players.
agree currently im in div 4 - low immo and damn my games feel likes much faster than turbo when player know when to push etc it became more more faster
Active item is something I noticed I was missing when I got back to League from Dota, in Dota you want to build blink, eeuls, force staff, BKB, etc. So many options for making every decision impactful and having more options to outplay your opponents makes every Dota game unique.
There were active items in league several years ago. Riot removed pretty much all of them because a lot of players were too bad. A ton of things got removed or changed because people were not willing to learn
My favorite part about dota as a 10 years league player. Is a support can be seen duking it out down in botlane from the getgo, instead of babysitting the carry.
1v1 support is fun to watch while im hitting creeps farming as a carry lmao. sometimes i can help but there are times that i cant do anything to help really
Dota also has very high damage supports like Witch Doctor, Hoodwink, Venomancer, or Marci who can out damage even midlaners in the mid game, ensuring that the support role is also fun to people who only care about big damage and kills.
@TheGlenn8 League has the same thing and people hate it. There is nothing as bad as seeing full squishy team and your support pick another squishy mage dmg dealer because he wants to deal dmg but doesn't want to farm creeps and play normal lane. Then it's insta lose before game starts.
@Dabliux I think the difference is that those dota supports will still be playing like supports while dealing a gazillion damage. They still lack farming tools, so they will need to get a large amount of their gold from kills, so they'll still be going around making plays.
Wish you lots of fun. Dota 2 has so much content updates, in the past few years, they've slowed down. I'm referring to beautiful cosmetics, mind blowing TI matches. Hey, maybe if more players come, we'll get those again. But there are still tons of events and balance patches and what not.
dota2 is so much better now, I love every little change they made but for me the biggest joy was the new map, it made Dota2 better than ever before with a simple but game changing modification.
every dota game feels like you're playing a tourney, having long respawn timers in lategame in tandem with the highground, makes comebacks very possible, and that fear of losing a winning match or the thrill of a comback makes dota 2 so fun (if you like to experience intense emotions xd)
I still miss the DOMINION game mode. I feel like that map was the biggest contribution to the MOBA genre since DOTA's creation. Riot actually made a new map, faster and more fun than the normal 3 lane mod and then they simply deleted it.
Teleport and mobility being huge in dota 2 also makes the lack of jungle a non factor. Supports are ever watchful, ready to rotate or hop into any tower. You can counter a dive or sneak in. Instead of one guy sweating it out to make something happen there's 3. The mid and 2 supports. If one lane is going poorly you have opportunity. If your lane is going poorly you can have your offlane or carry play it safe while you teleport to another lane to force an issue. If one guy dies in lane and his opponent rotates then a support can swap in with teleport and soak xp and gold and even threaten a tower. Dota 2 does go long, but its laning phase is exciting in a way that doesn't require memorizing specifically jungle clear times for every character in the game.
yeah ganking exists in the game but its everyone's responsibility except maybe a greedy pos 1 carry who needs gold/lvls. Pos 4 supports usually are roaming supports, so your ES or nyx or whatever should come mid or go top to gank. I hated that there wasn't jungle in the game when I first switched over but overtime I realized Dota got this right along with the ideas of creating space, lane pressures, denying camps etc.
9:44 talking about how the cliff is the reason why games are longer then shows 2 carries tping to bot lane to get the wave instead of ending or atleast getting tier 4 towers
While I do agree that stalemates in uncoordinated groups are frustrating to play and buffing neutral objectives might help mitigate those situations, I also believe that giving too much importance to them and nerfing towers/high ground would make watching pro matches significantly worse. People love to watch standoffs and crazy comebacks, no one that remembers TI4 wants to go back to a snowball meta.
Heroes of the Storm solves this by making neutral objectives very powerful tools for pushing base but making it hard to gain more than a modest advantage in teamfights/raw stats compared to DotA or LoL. This means the leading team can always force progress towards the game ending but can never rest on their laurels because even a team significantly behind can seriously contest a fair teamfight. The game doesn't snowball because being ahead doesn't help you get more ahead in how strong you are, and if the other team ever gets their act together and winning fights they can prevent you from getting any _more_ progress.
@EllipticalReasoning I disagree wholeheartedly. Ive played planty of HotS and I do not like that mechanic. How AI controls neutral units should not decide very competative pvp games. Dota2 once tries a yearbeast it was decided as bad.
@EllipticalReasoningyou can say it’s solved but most people that had a problem with hots was that they never felt like you ever had a very meaningful lead and didn’t like the team xp aspect
sister? more like the incest cousin that existed due to evil parents, in case you don't know you should see a vid or 2 about LoL lore and what their "creators" made at dota allstars forums back in the day
Taking towers used to give a lot of gold, but that got toned down for a reason. Towers give a lot of benefits for the team. Taking these benefits away from enemy team is always good for your team, especially since it takes away a spot that enemy can use TP scrolls on. This allows you to take control of the map, slowly strangling enemy and starve them off resources as your team gets progressively stronger. You also have better chance to take crucial objectives like Tormentor or Roshan with more map control. Imagine towers now also give a hefty amount of gold, this would make comeback significantly harder. I do agree that taking highground is quite difficult, especially for lower ELO with low coordination.
Yeah TI4 newbee "solved" that dota. They realized simply killing towers gave so much gold (it was like 500 g for the team, thats a full kill + another 100-200 ish chunk for the one who last hit it) And it opened up the map as you said. More map control = more spaces to farm = more money. So they just picked zoo/pushers, stacked as 5 and ran at towers like theres no tomorrow. Matches were ending in 15 - 20 minutes. Reducing tower bounty was the right call. And that was back when there were less camps on the map and heroes were worse at farming as a whole.
My complaint is the high ground push -- lower elo games think after one won team fight(after being down as well). They can win the game with a single push dealing with buy backs and fortifications. How many games were lost because the team refuses to Roshan or hey let's go back when our bkbs are off cool down or ultimates up.
I started as a dota player but did have a few spells many years back when I'd get into league for a month or two before swapping back. Last time I tried to get back into league it didn't even last a week before I was back to dota, and these days whenever I get a bit of an urge to play league I just watch a bit of content and the urge fades. When you've invested as much time into league as you have I suspect the urge to return is stronger, but there might come a day when the itch is barely there. Also the lane swapping penalties was what really cemented for me that I am never going to get into league again as anything more than a curiosity. I've never liked the way the devs try and restrict the game to a narrow, set-in-stone, experience, but at least something like tower plating was an interesting feature in its own right, even if it was made to enforce a set duration for laning phase. The ham fisted penalty approach reminds me of when Overwatch enforced a class composition for each team cause they couldn't balance their game without it, and that absolutely killed the creativity and fun-factor for that game, too. When even league players, who are used to being railroaded for the majority of the game's lifespan and actively encourage it by crying whenever something unique breaks the meta, feel like railroading is egregious then you know it's bad.
Dota lane meta is interesting as well because it's not fixed, we've seen periods where trilanes were popular (both supports go with the carry) and even dual laning mid
Man what a cool game, witnessing how the lane meta evolved from sacrificial solo offlanes to tri-lanes, late game HCs, fast pace, level 1 roshan, etc. Makes me feel old but it's was great time
@goannaking1, it was never fixed tho, so it was a matter of... who will discover the new bad strat that will suddenly become "the strat" Who knows... iwe might see trilane mid some day
@jemarcatubig3171 You're too optimistic, bro. Instead of hoping for laning meta shakeups, hope for meta defining hero changes that wildly change their possible roles. Dota is notorious for having the most flexible set of characters capable of playing multiple roles. Some can outright play any role like NP and WR and quite a few can play all core roles(Razor and DK). I'm convinced trilane, jungling and dual mid is not returning so I instead look at the heroes and item changes.
I basically play league for tft and urf but i been playing dota by the 2023 its really cool how any hero can be invisible just by buying and item and because the map is huge you can farm and not necessarily forced to just lane till the end. A lot of items are interactive can dispel silences slows and others the talent tree is also awesome
Oh my god bro I just noticed you probably still not aware about 'creep aggro' mechanics in Dota! Please learn how to do this. There should already be plenty of videos talking about this mechanic in RUclips. Knowing how to creep aggro will make your laning phase much much easier (and much harder than your opponent if they dont know how to lane!!)
Hey, 16-year Dota player here. I also played League from S2 to S4. I’m really glad to see more players starting to show interest in Dota 2. I saw someone say League is more like a combat game - you focus on mechanics, train your flash combos, and any small mistake can cost your lane momentum. But Dota is more like a strategy game. You can always smoke for a wraparound play, blink in to catch their core, and it all goes back to that famous quote in the China Dota community: “When you’re behind, League gives you a forfeit button. Dota 2 gives you a Divine Rapier.” So yeah, keep it up. Hopefully more League players will give Dota a try. But honestly, Dota is super beginner-unfriendly - all the complex mechanics, active items, and recent patches like Lotus Pool, Shrine of Wisdom, and Shards just make it even harder for new players to understand. And of course… the Dota 2 community is famous for its toxicity. Still, I hope you guys find the charm of the best MOBA game in the world - Dota 2. Enjoy!
Hey man, I also started dota, I did have aroun 150 hours or so but that was maybe in 2015 I dont even remember 😂 But, it is kinda funny because I had no idea of items or most skills and heroes do. I just liked couple (tusk, charge spirit guy I forgot its name the blue one xD And centaur). I played core and offlane (I still no idea what other lanes mean I just know safe lane). I hit close ancient after 50 hours of gameplay. And, I did not even realise I climbed that high because all I did was play one game a day or a couple at the weekends. And, I loved it hahaha the game was awesome, you can use your mic to communicate because I find pinging is useless talking makes people move more 😂 And all I did was teamfight with the team as much as possible and always earn gold in free time (aka no teamfights xD) Then I quit again because lide got busy and now I am back at the game again. I barely met anyone toxic, but I hope dota players gather up and fight more using mic 😂 This is what a real moba is like, in league everyone is stuck in their lanes but for dota people can just show up and fight 😂 you think it is 1v1 then turns into 2v1 3v3 and 5v5 under 20 secs xD Love the game. And I just play for fun and do whatever I want. Too funny never realised ancient was actually a decent rank until I got curious what it means and checked it from google 😂
@BNik92 yea, I’ve been playing DotA for about 13 years and its been basically non existent in terms of toxicity for the past 5 years. Maybe thats because maintaining a good behavior score filters out most of the toxic people or because of the ranked bracket (chilling in low divine where people are competent enough to know what they’re doing but not try hard enough to incessantly flame others). But I definitely havent dealt with nearly any toxicity. It’s maybe like 1 in 20 games where i see someone get actually flamed, two people going after each other, or (even fewer) people running down mid/break items. Idk, maybe its worse in lower ranks where people think they know how to play the game well and assume others dont. Or getting stuck in low behavior score hell (which is almost entirely self induced). I can really only speak to what Ive seem
I did that too, and it was one of the best things I ever did. My friends disapprove of my idea because they still play League of Legends, but I'm really happy to be playing something that's actually fun after a long time of just being addicted to it. My lowest point in terms of sanity was when I was one game away from being promoted to Diamond and I lost 15 games in a row, falling back to Emerald 4. Other factors also demotivated me from the game, like when they removed the old mastery system where my goal was to get mastery with all the champions.
I like this video and I appreciate that its not just a league hate train and a good source of info, been playing since 2013 and I love the game but it has changed alot. Next season seems exciting and im glad that they are getting rid of alot of the objectives which create the issues you mentioned. But I've been thinking of trying out Dota since it seems like it has alot of the things I miss about old league but it seems daunting to learn
The worst part of Dota is it has the diabolically high skill floor to enter the game as a noob, especially if it's yoir first MOBA game. Endless things to keep track of at every stage of the game, global map understending that won't come earlier then 100h playtime and shitton of unique skills and items interactions that even top 100 players in the world would struggle to aswer how they work (Like what would happen with a hero under AA blast and Oracles ult if ally Phoenix will target him with Agh Supernova). You either dedicate yourself completely to the game, or you'll constantly be confused on what's going on and what should you do
Ana during one of the TI finals in the booth was asked by his teammate to do something and he responded with 'yeah sure I dont even know whats going on right now'. He was playing phantom lancer, a hero that procs spawning illusions on himself, can split his own form into multiple illusions, and is considered an AD carry by LoL terms, and the enemy AD carry was morphling, a carry who can transform himself into an enemy hero, in this case, then phantom lancer, so there were fights with upwards of 40 illusions fighting one another while 8 other heroes were trying to figure out what the fuck is even happening.
I disagree on it being hard if it’s your first MOBA. It has so many unique mechanics that other mobas straight up don’t have. Every Dota player I’ve known that tried league said it was easy mode cause they no longer have to worry about half tge mechanics they used to while vice versa lol players struggle when the game isn’t just streamlined the same way every game.
@charmaincampbell346 just dont play competitive initially, there are many modes in the game, and you can even play community modes because valve allows players to make their own game modes
Also to reiterate this point, before the blink dagger change, if you tried to cast blink dagger further then the range, you would only go 4/5 the distance, famously Crit (a TI Winner) did not know of this mechanic after over a decade of playing and only discovered it on stream. Honestly my hot take us they shouldn't have changed it, but I do understand why it was a needlessly complicated mechanic, but super fun and punishing mistake. Dota is filled with these mechanics that you will come across once every 1000 games that make you just sit in awe, or fill you with unadulterated rage. And then you have moments that you never forget, like the first time I nightmare dodged a sniper ult that would kill my friend, I remember the health, the tower radius, and the exhale as I watched the cast time and hit it, as my friend said he was dead, then I casted it, and got the yo nice save. Can't remember if we won or lost but those are the moments in Dota I play for
One thing I like about dota, is that there are neutral objectives early in the game, the lotus fountain, the gold runes, the wisdom runes but they are all for the suports. The carries are farming in lane, trying to last hit meanwhile the suports are fighing a gorila warfare war in the jungle, blocking, stacking or pulling camps to lane, and the ever present the ward war. When I'm the suport, the carry is there farming, while I'm here, in the jungle, fighting tooth and nail deep into mud and blood with the other suport, we are fighing for runes, for vision, for flowers and for odd purple lights. Then, after 10 min I see the CS of my carry: 13 last hits and 2 denies.
Yeah, playing support feels like you are fighting the battle of Stalingrad while your carry is playing "Whac-A-Mole" for 13 minutes...to buy an item so he can Whac-A Lot Of-Moles, at once!
Im an immortal level support, there is something so soothing getting a deep ward that you KNOW won't ever be countered, or securing vision for an entire enemy jungle while you pressure their T2, hoarding all the smokes and knowing that YOU make the decision whether or not we smoke gank. Carry says they want to gank, but you hold the key to the gank itself and you have to make decisions WITH your team. I got to masters in league back in s6(?maybe 7?) and i never had this feeling. I felt like mechanically my adrenaline was pumping a lot more often and it was a lot more faster paced but it also kind of made me feel like a junky. The road to dota is fun if you have people to grow with because you can show your wins and losses. I also found that (at least in the NA server) once you get high enough MMR, there's actual immortal pockets where peple inhouse with people at that rank and group up with duos and ive noticed i made a lot more friends that i ever did climbing in rank for league. All I got in league was somebody finding out my IP and DDOSing my entire internet lmao. Dont get mer wrong I love the game, and i come back to play with my more casual friends but i swore off ever wanting to climb playing in league AGAIN in league because it felt like i was more of a therapist rather than a teammate.
@Zerostriker5 A wise desition. League is where players go to die. I had the same experience but in s10. I dindt climb past gold because I realised the same as you did and stoped.
As you understand the Game more and play with better players you will understand why highground siege is like that. It is one of my favorites parts of Dota. You can't make it idiot proof because idiots don't deserve to win, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for the win condition to be as deep as destroying the Ancient. Even when it feels like you're really ahead highground still can feel really hard, that's by design and something I LOVE! Is when both teams get to show their best aspects. Planning, strategizing, teamwork, risking, all shines the most when the game reaches that point. And is what makes the Game really interesting even when you may think it is already decided. Dota is not afraid of giving you long, intense tight Games, because sometimes those are the most fun. The true issue on this is when the Game extends with nothing happening, this is something more common when players are really dumb or when they're waiting too long for a condition to be met. This is something Valve has been trying to tackle several times with variant amount of success. But changing how highground siege fundamentaly works would break the Game and remove one of its best aspects. I would also like to add the more you understand and dive into Dota, the more wrong League feels, to the point of League feeling like a failed attemp at its own premise. One of the things that made Dota (and MOBAs in general) is the teamwork, strategizing, macro gameplay, player agency at controlling the game, flexibility on build and roles, emergent situations, etc. Things that made Dota a never-ending experience. And all things that League always seemed to dumb down to the point of hurting its own premise, feeling more like an arena fighting Game than the objective-based base defense that the premise suggests. Wich is also kind of sad because by League being so popular people kinda forgot what made these games so good in the first place.
Agreed. I feel the reason League is so popular is just because idiots don't want to read or actually think when they play. I used to play LoL when it first launched in Beta and it was an okay game then. Simpler than DotA, but modern and new so it was fun. But then Riot decided they ruled the roost and they slowly began stripping the fun out of the game. When DotA 2 launched I switched back and never played LoL again. Best decision I ever made.
@sniperdubey Remember how Riot originally marketed league as "The game is easier and simpler than DOTA you don't need to think much and because it is easier it's much more better" plus the Pendragon drama too
I do feel like they can tighten the gameplay and make it faster though... I wish the whole game was balanced around the timings of turbo... I feel like turbo is a good length for an average game of dota just without any of the other quirks of turbo added... Also I think they should fasten the spawn timer for tier 5 neutral items as those r kinda the "idiot proof" solutions to ending a game... why does the spawn have to be 60 mins when tier 4 items spawn at 35... just make it 45 mins, that's long enough for any single game
Yeah, that last paragraph is on-point. I used to love League, but Riot gradually -and intentionally - patched out everything I liked about it. Prolonged strategic fights testing your micro in a way few Dota heroes do? Gone, most fights are resolved in under 4 seconds. Alternative wincons (like Banner/Zz'rot tomfoolery)? Gone. Discussing strategy? Mostly gone, the game literally launches an objective poll at certain time marks. Build variety? Non-existent, and whatever slips through the cracks is quickly patched out (back in the day you could play Ezreal at least 3 different ways - AD, AP, Blue...). Active items? Almost extinct. There's too much to list, honestly, but I think their original sin was creating Rengar (and later doubling down with Zed), which instantly made squishies without mobility completely helpless, you couldn't skill your way out of getting killed. Then, instead of admitting this type of champions was a mistake or, perhaps, adding some counter-tech to the item shop, Riot decided to give everyone and their dog a dash (which didn't really solve the assassin problem properly on top or becoming an even bigger problem in the long run, so they just nerfed them into ground a few times). And they kept trying to fix those emergent issues in a roundabout way, instead of addressing the core issue - that being unconditional oneshots - which in turn broke the game down in a dozen more ways over the years. Durability patch was too little, too late and came with an absolutely unhinged and counterproductive decision to buff tank damage. Every single bit of powercreep since that day can be traced back to that stupid cat and the creative intent behind it. They wanted hype e-sports at any cost.
I really like the point about dota 2 games taking so long to finish compared to league and it just boils down to dota 2 map objectives not being "idiot proof" lmao
yeah exactly. to me league's way trying to force games to end feels artificial. towers melt so fast, baron nashor buff, that one creep that spawns when your inhibitor is down. its like its trying to shove down "you lost" down your throat without actually giving you a chance to defend yourself and keep extending the match. i really disagree with him on that point. some of my best and favorite matches in dota 2 have been like 70 min games where i'm like mid kunkka clearing enemy mega creeps with my rapiers and having fun cuz even with just the tier 4 towers it ffeels like the game is still EVEN.
As a low bracket player, I've lost way more teamfights while having the Aegis on my team than I would like to admit. It's literally the "now you get cocky item" that induces blunders on our Herald small brains.
@xaevius5319don't get me wrong I'm sure these games are fun for you, but it is very uninteractive for many of the other players. I mainly play 4/5 and in mega creep games I'm ready to fall asleep, cause all I do is walk back and forth behind the ancient to not be able to be picked off, and every 7 minutes but a smoke and maybe attempt to ward. Dotas highground is a great mechanic to be used for a come back but in these 70+ minute games it ends up being a stall fest where the team defending can't win the game by leaving the base, but the other team is stuck farming because there is too much risk to try to push highground as it's their only lose condition. This aspect should be changed, while it is not common it definitely happens too many times to be healthy. But it's extremely hard to make a balanced change to protect the comeback potential of HG while also limiting the stalling aspects. They tried with t5 neutrals which sometimes do the job but not 100% of the time
not sure what you mean. Most of my dota2 games end within 25-35 minutes. Some go up to 45 maybe 1 in 10. And like 1 in 20 go above 50. If your games take longer than 35 minutes, its a skill issue. Which is fine, but thats lack of skill not bad design. Dota is designed for those that are willing to improve and learn to be rewarded, which is how it should be IMO.
@4our241 "but it is very uninteractive for many of the other players." for who? people that have no patience to defend and more than likely should not be playing dota in the first place if they're so strapped for time? "This aspect should be changed" no it shouldn't. see this is the problem, you people assume that that state of the game is a result of the highground mechanic when in reality you've guys made a bunch of mistakes in the early to mid game that now you're in this situation in the first place. if a game ever felt like "youre just stalling the game" and you're defending for no reason that tells me 1. you guys didn't draft well, 2. you guys definitely didn't win the early to mid game enough that now you're in the position you're in - at the mercy of the opponents.
This was well narrated, researched and executed. A nice video, good job! The hardest thing about dota is the steep learning curve; it's one of those "it gets good after 1000 hours" game. So seeing you enjoying it already is a good sign ^_^
Along along time ago there used to be a dedicated jungler. Also along along time ago there used to be 3 in sage lane, 1 mid , 1 off 😂 we been through many different metas.
I've been League sober for about 5 years, I managed to scratch the itch by casually playing RTS games like Warcraft 3 and Age of Mythology. I think I'm too old for MOBAs, I don't have the time nor the energy to re-learn everything the genre has to offer.
I am a Dota players since 2013. I wish i could try league sometimes but I feel u, I am too old already to even try to learn everything that's in game 😂.
No worries. Dota is fine even for "older" players, as the player base actually grew relatively old compared to other online games. Quick reaction time isn't as relevant (outside of fast-pacedd characters) as in other competitive games. We had world champions aged like 26 or more, and those are literally the top of the world players.
Super insightful video from a League players POV coming into Dota. As a diehard Dota fanboy, I've always preferred Dota style of game design. Valve allowing the players to dedicate meta of the game, as opposed to Valve deciding it themselves. This is abit self pluggy. But I've made quite afew Dota videos aimed at explaining what makes Dota feel unique One final note.....you're also a BT/ Mechwarrior fan! You've got great taste
i much prefer the organic feeling of dota rather than the strictly controlled feeling of league. every champion in league feels like it was created for a specific goal and a specific focus, and you can't really stray outside of that. in dota, there's a huge overlap of heroes that can be played as supports or carries, magic damage or physical damage, with the ability to go any lane. league has highly synergistic heroes and abilities, while dota has random abilities on heroes that somehow work
for the tower issue you can click a and click on any creep or other hero in the radius to change the tower to hit them instead so you don't have to walk out of the range.
I will try to explain how the tower "thinks" in DOTA. First Law: I will Deffend my allied heroes from (right click) ATTACKERS. Second Law: I will Defend my self from the closest (right click) ATTACKERS, as long as it doenst break the first law. Third Law: I will attack the closest thing (right clicking) ATTACKING me, as long as it doenst brerak the first and seccond law. Bonus Law: I have foresight, I know when the enemy RIGHT CLICKS to ATTACK my allied hero, therefore I will obey the first law. Notice it just defend from attackers, not spells. And you can de-aggro the tower by trying attacking an allied creep, becuase of the second law. If you are not attacking the tower anylonger, it will defend itself from threats.
So if you left click the tower and nothing else is left clicking an enemy player the tower targets you even if you're farther than minions? But if the minions are currently left clicking the tower you're good.
@Justin-lr6yf I forgot to say that the tower atacks the closest thing attacking it, so, if you (a melee hero) and 2 melee minions and one ranged ara atacking the tower, it will kill the two minions and then target you. The way you can solve this is to stop atacking just for a brief moment when the 2 melee die and let it target the ranged minion, so you can continue atacking.
@LichKingg23 So if it begins targeting a ranged minion for shooting it, even if you begin smacking it in melee again it will not change aggro to you and will keep shooting the minion, only updating the target once the minion dies to the current closest?
@LichKingg23 Also jesus fucking christ all of the tutorials are broken. I tried to get into the game like 2 years ago and decided not to since half of the tutorials worked and they still are just blatantly broken.
11:40 not sure if you are aware but you can reset your tower aggro instead of walking out by issuing attack command on your own creep, can be full health( wont work in case of proximity aggro, like when you are left with range creep and catapult.same way you can manipulate lane creeps with command attack on enemy hero (can be on the other side on the map) to get creeps to attack you and pull them to better position for you (sidelines usually like to play close to their own tower with some exceptions
One other good mechanic is that if there are no heroes on the map to send the attack command to you can also send the attack command on the hero portrait at the top of the screen.
While I think your critique of the difficulty of highground is very appropriate, I think a bit of context is fair to offer. Dota often gets balanced around what the pros do at the major tournaments through the year, especially what they do at The International (our annual equivalent of Worlds). This plays into highground's functionality in 2 ways. The first can be narrowed down to one of the most influential tournaments in Dota history - TI4, held in 2014, which was pretty much the last tournament where it was possible to convert a laning stage advantage into an easy highground push. The finals for the tournament included a number of 20-minute matches where the losing team would concede after losing a T2 tower due to how the gold distribution system from that era gave the team that got an early gold and map lead an absurdly large advantage. After that tournament, the gold distribution system was ovrehauled to ensure that this would no longer be possible, and the game has in general been balanced to give more and more emphasis to getting an advantage through teamfights. The second can be explained by how the various timed objectives are usually approached by pro players in tournament settings - where matches usually go to about the 35-min mark. Most teams at the pro level will draft themselves a way to take a teamfight/tormentor/Roshan at 20 mins after getting an important item on one of the heroes, and using that opportunity to go highground at the 22-23 min mark. If all goes well, they will take a lane of barracks, retreat to take Roshan, use Aegis to win the next fight and take another lane, retreat and farm up the next item, and either use the power spike from the next item on the cores to win the last fight, or wait for the next Roshan to get another Aegis and Roshan's Banner to push the final lane and then fight on the enemy highground to end the game. If one team wins their lanes hard enough, the timeline shifts 5 minutes up, but that is the general cadence of most high-level Dota, which drives the balancing of the game. The fact that teams can concede also means that pro games will often cut out the last 2-3 mins of slowly taking down the base while the enemy team has conceded, but I don't think this is as big a factor as it seems at the outset. In summary - I find highground to be frustrating as well, but having seen the alternative, I do think the current version is better.
While I agree with a fair bit of what your saying. I think you are very mistaken, Dota may of in the past been balanced around pros, but definitely not currently. The philosophy has definitely shifted within game balance to favour the average players more, like look at the immortal queue change, everyone hates the player draft, and also lots of heroes have been busted for ages but require high mechanics to get value out of, and so it is not reflected in the AVG players win rate. Therefore the nerf is many patches late, or can even end up being buffed. As for high ground mechanics, I think that it is unfortunate how it works, the t5 neutrals were implemented to force the game to end but obviously that doesnt always help. I have a friend who has for a short time played pro, and he has been so reluctant to play Dota, because of high ground, he finds the fast pace of league and the punishment for stalling way more of a fun experience. Dotas high ground in 95% of games is fine and playable, but even in higher brackets those 5% even if your team pushes all waves in, only pushes high ground after a pick off, has aegis, and banner. Still ends up being unbreakable, because of enemy heroes. And the fact that even if you kill the problematic heroes once they can buy back, it makes the game a joke. All you can do is farm until a player does something dumb on the other team. Where you're playing for a win and the other sides only playing to not lose. It's very uninteractive. Don't get me wrong the high ground needs to be hard to push to enable come backs, but at a certain point when the game can be held captive by a team camping in 5% of the map, there needs to be a solution. So while yes I do think the base Defense aspect of Dota is very fun, and ends up playing major roles in massive comebacks, and the highground of old being a wet noodle and a formality, there does need to be a change to make it either easier to siege, or a punishment for stalling. So I definitely understand the frustration from learning Dota and then being held captive in lower ranks as your team 1 by 1 afk hits a tower and dies.
@4our241 To clarify - when I say the game is balanced around pro players, I mean to say that the game gets balanced around what they do at tournaments with a lot of viewers - i.e. when the outsized impact of a broken item/hero becomes too large to ignore when looking at Dota as a specator sport. I think the 2 major examples in recent memory are the post-TI11 changes to (and subsequent removal of) Wraith Pact and the post-DreamLeague Season 21 nerf to PA (i.e. after she went through a major tournament with a 60%+ win rate while being contested in nearly every single game, thanks to the 450 AOE blur invisibility). The point was not to say that changes will benefit pros or be based around what their day-to-day experience through the game is like - rather that tournaments with lots of spectators have the most influence on patches. And yeah, I'm with you on the conclusion that the game as it stands does make highground a frustrating slog at times, and that it affects low-ranked games most negatively. It's part of why I will often go for weeks or months without touching the game. However, I do think that the very same aspects make tournaments more fun to watch, which eventually draw me back into Dota. (Yes, I do recognize that I have a problem.)
@rafaelmarkos4489yeah absolutely valid take on the balancing, and it's only going to happen more with the immortal replay change. And yeah as I said there's not really a good fix, as another comment said, dotas objectives aren't idiot proof. Its been an issue for that long I don't think it's going to be fixed, so while you may hop off Dota, I just end up playing turbo 🤣
Not sure if worth noting, but dota did have jungling which got killed and then overkilled some more. The biggest blow was jungle spawning at 1:00 minute mark (as opposed to same time as lane creeps start (or were they always spawned initially?)), the other big blow was making all forms of lifesteal 1/5th effective on non-heroes. Lesser blows include removal/weakening of jungling items, increasing space between camps so no particular spot is too efficient, adding high-ground at the core of the jungle so you can easily be stalked in most places.
2:05 Dota 2 needs all those neutral jungle creeps because of creep warding (stop jungle creep from spawning) and some Dota 2 heroes rely on taking control of specific jungle creeps (more changes to spawn the correct jungle creep) 8:40 The existence of a high ground is part of the draft (at least in competitive, either draft a tower siege hero or draft a team that can win a team fight and siege as a team), as well as provide the defending team a "comeback mechanic" 11:20 There is a logic to the tower aggro, there should be a lot of youtube videos that explain this 13:50 Dota 2 had jungle items before (Iron Talon, Poor Man's Shield) but these were removed because of how it screws up the early game 18:20 Dota 2 doesn't have many mandatory objective fights, but it does have a lot of time-based objectives to keep track. Stacking camps, river runes, bounty runes, wisdom shrine and tormentor 20:00 Dota 2 creep deny is an unintended mechanic that goes back to Dota's Warcraft 3 version that was ported to Dota 2. It makes "no sense" thematically but it adds a mechanical depth during the laning phase
thee only issue why dota aint as hype as lol is because Valve refuse to promote their game . That's it. Unlike Riot who give a lot of effort like animation, cinematics, collabs. Dota on the other hand barely collab, never advertise, the cinematics barely as well. But it is still alive today because the game is of high quality.
I agree with you as a DotA player, it actually wasnt always the case we used to get much more "promotion" in the past but as the game has got older and the premier tournament of the year went from humungous 20+ million prize pools to under 4 million it seems to have gone with it too.
@watermelon58 the reason we dont have 20m+ prize pool is because they stopped doing battle passes for some reason. alot of people are really waiting for it to buy and spend money but idk i think valve hates money
While Riot does do a better job promoting its game, promotion is not the main factor regarding dotas "hype", League itself, like all mobas are already considered hard to get into due to their complexity and learning curve, Dota 2 is League on steroids in some ways and not in a good way. Watching Dota2 pro play is far less appealing compared to League with its mirrored match ups and more precise inputs/visual clarity compared to dotas BLinks. Dota has a lot of non modernized aspects like no clear objectives for new players or viewers , complexities in item building,multiple components 9 inv slots, neutral items, courrier management, a second "secret" shop for specific items.... Basically Dota is very complex and complexity and visual chaos is not very appealing for people who are interested in learning, League is far more modernized in countless ways in addition to being simpler for both viewers and players + better/cleaner inputs leading to more micro "outplays", dota2 is clunkier and far more macro based. And there is a plethora of things i havent mentioned...tower aggro,denies,countless "minor" objectives,no ff, 1h games, invunerable buildings.... These are not " bad" things but they all do add up to why Dota2 is less main stream and less "hype", dota2 is for a more specific audience.
I think what you forgot to mention thats super important to dota is that each hero is incredibly useful in its own way, if you get cooked early you can still be super useful later on in the game when it actually matters most. Also the items, being able to buy stuff that you need to play against certain comps and heroes is just so amazing and keeps the game dynamic. If you have an aoe ult but your hero has no inherent dash or way to get close you buy a blink in game, if you find yourself getting 1 tapped by the enemy carry or mid ypu can buy a ghost scepter or a glimmer or an aeon disc to survive. In league you get like a zhonyas or spellshield but you still get fucked in the end anyway.
Your tower behaviour bit is not fully correct. Dota's system is more complicated than that, and has an aggro based function that causes the tower to attack units attacking in its range as a priority. If you are a hero and you are attacking an enemy hero under the tower, the tower will take you as number you priority. You can break this aggro by issue an attack command against one of your own team's units under the tower, and the tower will de aggro you, and pick up the next target on it's aggro list.
RIGHT! Exacly my story, i have been playing LoL from season 2, tried Dota 2 few times, always thought its too complex. Last year i properly tried dota2 with my friend who is high rank at both games and i fell in love with dota2. LoL became so restrictive over the years, dota is so free. Its not as good mechanically as LoL, but strategicaly its far superior. The skill in dota is not about crazy micro and reactions, but about strategy and macro, itemization. You can play every champion atleast 2-3 different styles. You see natures prophet and you cant tell if hes solo lane, jungle, mid, carry or support and thats what i love about it.
I mean, that's if you only define "mechanics" as "landing skillshots" or, perhaps, "weaving combos" But is juggling 3-6 active abilities and then 2-5 active items many of which can't just be fired randomly when the shit starts going down (as they have specific use cases) really easier than that mechanically? And, mind you, that's before you consider illusions/pets and funky direction and/or rhythm-sensitive mechanics like the proper use of Armlet, Shadow Raze or playing Puck in general. This type of difficulty doesn't even exist in League.* Point-and-click abilities are, of course, easier to _use_ than skillshots - but the nature of said skills in dota means they're much harder to use _well_ * - except for Riven show-offs
@AthenaTennosNit also need to be reminder to all people. That deadly skill like laguna blade, finger of death etc. Despite targeting are disjointable. In high elo. Reaction to use manta style in under 0.25 second needed (laguna blade only give chance 1/4 second to dodge). Yet, many able to do it. All those dota complexcity skill demand fast reaction and strategy.
@AthenaTennosN i meant that objectively. Of course both games are in the same area but LoL focused more about weaving combos and Dota2 is more about preparation, right order of items and abilities. LoL has designed champions with mainly complete kits and there are no items that really change their playstyle. Dota heroes have “basic” kits that synergize well with items which opens new playstyle for said hero. Of course in Dota there are complex heroes, but you know thats not the main thing. If you eat chocolate cake, there can be some strawberry in it, and vice versa if you eat strawberry cake, you can find some chocolate, both are cakes. I was aiming on LoL having very restrictive gamplay and Dota being more open.
@YoungSweezy that's reasonable. I'm just a bit burned out on the whole "dota has no micro requirements" discourse that inevitably pops up in conversations like this one. Yes, yes it does, it's just a more RTS-ey type of micro (while League is closer to a fighting game with its combat sensibilities)
@AthenaTennosNexactly, i am definitely not saying that dota is easier or basic” far from it. Because of its more RTS leaned, its actually harder to leatn. There are so many interactions and strategies that LoL simply doesnt have, it has even day and night mechanic, so many things to think about in one dota match. On the other hand, LoL has very streamlined gameplan compared to it, but its more “fighing game” oriented. Champions have complete kits and items just enhance that with passives, macro is kinda simple compared to dota2. Thats why i find LoL micro oriented and Dota macro oriented. And trust me after 10 years of LoL it was a so fresh for me. I was blown away how open this game is.
Dota is currently doing a collab event with Monster Hunter. At the start of the game you get to pick an enemy player to "hunt" by killing them first, and you get some crafting materials depending on which hero it was. You can then use those materials to create cosmetic sets for certain heroes. That dragon is just part of the map dressing for the event and has no effect on gameplay
Crossover like the other comment said, but also the hero Dragonknight whose ult transforms them into a dragon also got a skin for them too. As well as palico courier and techies(a hero) skins and a bunch of mh armor skins for different characters too.
8:30 this is solved by acquiring the roshan's banner. if your team has a well placed banner, it forces the enemy to engage rather than try to poke from a distance.
I went from League to Dota 2 in 2013 when they nerfed one of the coolest interactions in League at the time which was: >Thresh throws out lantern >Blitzcrank flashes to the lantern and grabs someone >Blitzcrank clicks on the lantern and both grabbed player and blitzcrank return to thresh Dota 2 on the other hand was full of these kinds of interactions (infamous pudge teleport fountain hooks) Now I got 10.000 hours in dota 2 and the rest is history.
You swapped games because of an extremely niche interaction that basically will never come up naturally unless you specifically fish for it and pick 2 supports that may or may not be useful? That's some dedication.
@Rekovniiexactly. And thats one of the biggest reasons for me. Played league since 1st season, but the creativity of combining skills(and items, alot of active items, and aghanim) sold me dota
The fountain hook is patched but many players are still making ways to fountain hook. So many interactions between abilities that people are still finding more loopholes. Like that enemy combo against rubick, which is mostly impossible but it is crazy that it existed. Marci using Ulti and Tusk using the Punch, Rubick steals both, activates Marci's ult, Steals Puck's dream coil. And Rubick use Dream Coil against the enemy and it becomes a small Earth Shaker slam with small radius but instant kill.
@ClairicBeast people pick a hero for a certain reason and you can pick based on that, its a mutual thing that you simply know. its extremely likely to pull off because otherwise there is no point in picking them
i dunno man, actual former league player here, have not returned in like 6 years or so, and don't plan to. Can't, even, cuz I'm on linux. Still might check out DOTA
Dota is getting more and more mandatory objectives also. But until you go really high level people don't do it lol(or do it but when they feel like it). like every 1 min jungle camps/stacks, 2 min runes, 7 min experience shrines. min 20 tormentor and early rosh so that you can go hg with second rosh banner.
This is like watching myself back when I dropped League forever a decade ago. You've hit on some good points, and it's interesting to see things from people who don't know the 20 years of dota metas, patches and strategies. I was surprised when you didn't mention turn rates at all, as that's usually a big hurdle people coming from league can struggle to get over, so if anything, I'm impressed. Well done, best of luck.
I played Dota 2 just for 3 months and stopped playing just before they expanded the map. It was so good. I was unemployed at the time and I played 1k hours in those 3 months. I was consumed by the game and I loved it's complexities. The ridicolous heroes that if they were in League of Legends they would break the game, Naga, Phantom Lancer, Terrorblade were my favorite and I was pretty good with them and I was winning with them, even though I started with Terrorblade 0/5 win/loses I would eventually end up around 55% winrate I just loved playing pos1. pos 3 Dark Seer was one of my most favorite too, I still remember games where I ran across the entire enemy side being chased and escaping and "creating space" that way. Then just like that I had bad game that left bad taste in my mouth so I took a break and eventually I didn't end up reinstalling Dota 2, but once in a while I see vids that praise Dota 2 and I have urge to reinstall. While Pos1 and Pos3 were my favorite, I tried pos2 a lot too, but only played it because I remember enjoying heroes like Zeus and Windranger. Also I played a lot of Spirit Void, but I never ended up doing good with him, like I did with TerrrorBlade. Ah the memories, makes me want to reinstall. :D
That's my experience as well, reached a quite high rank. Had to uninstall after a very bad game. But what I realized after a while, the reason you needed to take a break is because you care. It's high and lows are so good. That when you dominate the game, its so fulfilling but when its a really bad game it feels so bad.
@fenrirdarkness1374 Yeah, unfortunately, you cannot have highs without lows. When you have a great game it can feel like you are above the World, but that is why some bad games can feel like your are a worthless human being. You cannot avoid it if you are invested into competitive game, so if you wish to keep playing you have to accept high polarities of high and low.
@fenrirdarkness1374 Btw, that is also laughable when people say "don't be upset, it is just a game" or something like that. Every single player experienced those opposites if they are invested into the game. And if you are not invested, you not gonna perform well or feel much of reward (though you also will not feel frustrated).
Dota towers are much more interactable than mentioned. They target things that are attacking at all so if you stop attacking when a creep dies it should pass over you, as well you can issue an attack command on any ally including creeps that will remove the aggro from you.
its a conflict in design DOTA solves their problems by making players do something about it, essentially saying "you can solve this problem, but only if you do this". LOL devs address it directly, making players with a "you have to do this, you dont have a choice" feel. LOL late game is about securing stuff to end the game. - GAME OF OFFENSE - Laugh Out Loud level of - if i kill objective we win DOTA is about holding out to somehow win the game if the enemy makes a mistake. - LITERALLY DEFENSE OF THE ANCIENT
Best example is your jungle role gripe... in league you have to be jungler, you have to be ganking, if someone else does your job for you they are going to be on a bad spot. DOTA hoever... if my carry decides to gank because he feels strong and saw an opportunity, THATS CALLED A GENIUS PLAY! ---- Second one, is that LOL is so bad in wierd picks.... you cant play teemo carry. DOTA? Techies carry, Mortred support,
@jemarcatubig3171 I agree with weird picks but please don't go for Techies carry and PA support. Go for unconventional roles on heroes that actually work even in pro play like Terrorblade offlane and support , Alchemist (4) and Sven (5) support.
@jemarcatubig3171 to add to that point; i had a spectre hard support the other day and told us at the end of the match that he had to build damage items in the final minutes of the game, because we simply lacked a bit more physical damage to end it. i just love how you can just do that and adapt on the fly! it also kinda reminds me of that one pro player who never bought blink with enigma, but he rushed boots of travels 2 and just tp to his team and just blackholes the nearest guy messing with his core lmao.
I played SF on every position from 1-5, super versatile and fun hero (11k mmr btw), why i can do that? Cause different item builds allow me to do it, unlike LoL where I can't build differently.
The tower aggros the creature that is attacking them in that moment, if a creep is gonna die, deny it and you'll see the tower will never target you unless you are the last target in range
@11:30 Unfortunate for newcomers, but part of having a rich and complex game with layered mechanics is that you can't just build it for the lowest common denominator. The very things that make dota more interesting than league are the very same "not idiot-proof" mechanics you're discussing, imo.
Yeah I found that entire part of the video really weird. There are constant objectives in modern day Dota that force teams to fight over at certain times. Bounties at 0:00, water runes at 2:00, Wisdom Shrine at 7:00. And ofc there’s bounties and power runes and blocking/stacking camps, and rosh and torm. Most of the difficulty in getting better is hitting your item timings and being in position to contest objectives as soon as they become available.
Free 1400g item for the leading team is insanely strong, and he said no one does tormentors at low ELO, that kinda checks out especially since many of the supports who will have the lowest net worth have the strongest shard upgrades.
@jacob1121 In higher ELO I've never seen the tormentor be up because once it does, a team will take it. It's especially crucial for support since they have so little net worth that 1400g they can buy other important support items.
@FaliggetFTW He just highlights the problem for your average LoL player. If it isn't an obvious blinking objective with a huge arrow sign, but a tiny bit more subtle, it flies over their head.
bushes in league is a big pain point for me. Half he time they work, and I dont know why or when I am invisible for the enemy, they just start autoing.
Outlast (LOL) vs Outplay (DOTA2). Simply the basic difference in philosophy. And that's pretty much how DOTA runs completely away with all the complexity it can think of, because its idea of "I know you're great at this, but you're never good at that" as a design principle is the real drive. It doesn't hurt either how balance is (supposedly) heavily obsessed with every patch, making for a game that should be responsive enough if not fair. Also, let's be honest - LOL feels like an endurance run than an action game; DOTA2 has inescapable action
I mean teamfights in LOL lasts for like 10-30 seconds unless enemy is buying time and running away while Dota takes a minute or even more in teamfights making the suspense in farming quite exciting for a 5v5 take Liquid vs Planet ODD in TI7 or OG Base Defense in TI8 Upper Bracket FInals vs PSG.LGD
@FP2_Shrimpthat's an expected effect with DOTA being practically "anything goes", LOL's team fights being shorter just reinforces the part about it being kinda averse to real combat and carnage. Real combat means clawing and cheating your way out of getting killed - and DOTA serves the cheats in not just the features but the broken items and skills the heroes can have at their fingertips
@sofattia7940which mechanics? The one that's still not there even until now? Like the town portal teleports? Or the courier? I can agree with you that mechanics could matter more in LOL, just by the fact that they literally never touched the above and a bunch of others so that the remaining mechanics that they DID allow in the game perpetuates the balance they can more easily control from a design perspective. A bit lazier compared to DOTA2's allowance of just about any mechanic imaginable, but sure I guess in that sense mechanics matter more in LOL that way
@TheGrifhinx You're not talking about the same things. DotA is more focused on macro (controlling the map with TP scrolls, wards that don't expire, courriers), while League is more focused on micro (fast paced moment to moment gameplay and pushing the smallest advantage you can get in your matchup). Think of what he said about camp pulling to break a freeze. That's one less mechanic for League, but that makes freezing just that more powerful. If you are strong enough you can even deny some xp on top of the gold from your opponent by zoning them out meaning you get your next level earlier than then and can make a play out of that. Speaking of a macro mechanic that League has but DotA doesn't : recalling. Setting up a good recall so you don't lose out on xp and gold or allow your opponent to setup a freeze, ie lane management, is an art in and of itself. You can screw yourself out of a winning position by recalling badly because when you go back, the minions are close to his turret, but not close enough to aggro it and make it push so he can farm safely and he just freezes the lane there. If you walk up, you open yourself for a gank, if you don't, you can't farm. In League, you try to win your lane so you can take objectives and then win the game off those objectives. The objectives in DotA aren't as long lasting and powerful, so getting them doesn't seem to matter as much, so being in a position to get them isn't that important. You'd rather farm safely and work towards your long term objective / control the map so you can farm. You're playing for the economy, in a way. Yes, there is more fighting in DotA, but you can't really translate that into a win condition. At least that's what it looks like from the outside in.
6 hours could happen but will most likely be people agreeing to just chill or the stomping team keeping the other side hostage. Playing dota since beta and my longest match is 2 hours something but that was years ago.
17:34 please do not place your venomancer plague wards like that (on the camp). You can click alt and see the camp borders, and if your plague ward is inside the camp, the neutral creeps won't spawn. Also you don't use the creep aggro function, it becomes noticeable at the end of the video (gyrocopter (you) vs viper clip, troll (you) & disruptor vs luna & jakiro clip). I can tell you how to aggro creeps below (if you answer this comment) or even show you this in discord if you want! it will make your dota experience more comfortable
@scottbowers7431yeah, it's just a habit when you see mistakes like these. But for low ranks, if you block camps like that as venomancer, you might probably help your teammates to gather and finally go together somewhere?? However, I ain't sure whether they gonna come together or spread on the map and die one by one, but it's good theory to check
Game lengths are very okay for me. My longest game is 85 minutes and I enjoyed every second. The thing is dota doesn't force you to end the game in 20 minutes. It is all strategies, which is good.
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next video: why i swapped from crack cocaine to heroin
I was going to make this exact comment 😭
My question is: should i start crack(LOL) or heroin(Dota)
@checkmate8849try both out and find which one you think feels better. I love both just depends what you might like. Overall if you're purely worried about balance I think dota wins
@checkmate8849Do both and go crazy
@checkmate8849 Wait for the weed (Deadlock)
You forgot to mention that if you chat "LOL" in DOTA, your character will laugh.
KeK
This is the sole mechanic that gives dota it's competitive edge
League does that too😂
@terrellsm2522if you type dota it's censored, idk if it's still like that today
You can also do /laugh in all chat
RE: Towers - In league Towers defend you, in DOTA you defend towers.
It's called Defense of the Ancients for a reason
@FP2_Shrimpleague= defense of the champions but that makes no sense because you lose when your nexus gets destroyed.
Agreed
ikr this stupid kid crying about how tower hitting him while there's creep and crying why high ground is so tough in early mid game. It's a most balanced game. both side gets enough chances to cover up there mistakes. If you want less time easy game go play turbo rather than complaining.
@visualtechai how old are you? 9?
Great video, you forgot to mention that all heroes are completely free in DOTA.
in lol you have to pay to play all the heroes???
@Capriciusyou can with real money or play the game to unlock them so no you’re not being force to pay
What he means is that in Dota you have all the characters unlocked from the start, you can try them all out, which improves the experience for a casual player.
@Capricius in dota you have everything unlocked right away every hero, in league you have to grind points to get them or pay with real money to unlock heroes
@AvocadoMafia55
Well that doesn't make it any better does it. Every hero should be free off the bat
this is like watching someone learn that not all food tastes like cardboard
but this is like praising paper towel for tasting better than cardboard
@neonkenny6682gameplay wise, dota is far superior, community wise? Hard to say honestly
@BrolaireThebright Gamplay being superior is debatable... Both communities r pot n kettle (same sht)
@neonkenny6682it is objectively better, unless your definition of better means babyfied.
@neonkenny6682 ofc dota is superior, always was...
Putting that plague ward inside the camp gave me a migraine
Word!
wards despawn every 40 seconds so it is actually more efficient sometimes
It's good if that camp is not on your side and u just want to block it for enemy
@rev9115 I don't think that makes it more efficient and in the video he was warding the camp 10-20 seconds before they respawn.
@krzys2090 but in the case in the video, its theirs
My favorite DotA 2 quote comes from Team Secret:
"If you can't break high ground, your advantage is false."
Glyth, First destroyed tower glyth, barracks glyth, t4 glyth, buybacks, creep skipping, and 5mins later one extra glyth and buybacks. Wow, if your opponent is not an idiot, you‘ll have to play farming simulator for an extra 30 minutes just to end a winning game
@boxanskit4 doesn't give glyph, destroying the highground Tower doesn't give glyph either, is the racks that do. If you really are strugling to push highground then you don't have the advantage you thought you had and you don't deserve the free win.
@boxanskifacts. Especially on a pro scene.
Yeah his take about high ground is bad ngl. It's one of the things that makes Dota a vastly better game. You can come back, if you lose lane the game isn't just immediately over because you can't contest Baron or Drake and they don't just immediately wipe your towers and base and end the game.
If the game is lasting 60 minutes, you weren't winning as much as you thought you were.
@boxanski Kill a pawn, start making a position, prepping castle preparation. Wow, if your opponent is not an idiot, you'll have to keep pressuring him for another 30 moves just to end a winning game.
Saying “ty” or “thanks” in chat will make your character say it too and honestly this is Dota’s single greatest feature
Dota's tower aggro is actually extremely consistent, you just need to know how it works! It's one of those things you just have to learn, but it is 100% controllable
even knowing the full system personally it's still annoying. Luckily towers are more brutal for the armor buff they give their team than their damage so it hardly matters
there is 1 element i find uncontrollable about towers and its switching its aggro by a-clicking my own creep. it literally doesnt work sometimes and i have to spam it for it to work. been playing 13 years and its always been like this
@NakulaKaufman just spam it lol
@ponytail336 You get used to it. After playing 10k hours, it feels like second nature to me. I queue in my mind what it will attack next almost all the time when im under tower, without much effort.
@NakulaKaufmanassuming there are no other enemies in the tower range, and the creeps are targeting the tower, this happens because you are the closest unit
when you a click your own creeps it resets your aggro and your attack will now reset to the nearest target
which is now the tower itself
and since you are now the closest target targeting the tower, the tower aggro is reset and sets to you again
go to demo mode, spawn a creep wave and hit the tower
walk slightly close to the tower than the creeps and reset aggro, it will not work
now walk further away and do it again
voila
It’s still so weird seeing someone play map on right side. It’s like grasping that some languages are written from right to left.
You can switch map to left though
@FP2_Shrimpthat's why he said it's weird because most people play with the mini map on the left(which is the default since dota all stars)
you can flip it in the settings
If you make a new account, i think its flipped now and people with older accounts have the normal version
@olgagaming5544I dont think so. I recently have seen another player who just started playing DotA, and they said that it was too incovinient for them to play with map on the left, so they swapped it
High ground defense is an integral part of Dota and gives a comeback chance to the losing team. It is just one of the comeback mechanics integrated into the game. The art of hg defense is beautiful, when you are losing and you defend from your hg successfully and win the game, that feeling is surreal.
Not happening much in higher ranks tho, early/mid game most important and then just snowball.
Thats why i love legend-ancient games. Cant stand playing on my main divine 4, i regret grinding it…
@WhitePerson-man u should grind to immortal...
I apologize dont go through hell
Idk maybe for someone from League it is so. For me after 13years of dota it feels terrible. Okay we lost 100%, they all have 5k hp and we have no damage and our carry is 10k networth with 1 save item, its mathematecally impossible to win. Still teammates throw skills at waves and press gliph so the game goes on for 15 more minutes of pure struggle with buybacks and creep skipping. And reverse when u play some magic damage midlaner and have 20 kills for 20 minutes ur unkillable in teamfights but enemy have good waveclear so the game goes on for an hour and u still win because u oneshot anyone.
overall comeback mechanics in dota are too much i feel. It always make me laugh when in mid lane i kill enemy at lvl 6 and get like 30% exp to lvl 7 and 200 gold, then he comes back, get 2 creeps for lvl 6 then kills me and get lvl 7 insta and 400 gold. Like man we are 200 exp and 200 gold apart hes not that far behind. Or if u play supp on a winning team and for killing u with kda 1/8/8 enemy carry gets 400-500 gold then u kill him and get 210 gold. Now i see that they are losing but still maybe its too much when enemy carry costs 1 creep wave? Exp is even funnier, it is pretty common to lose with team kills 15/30 and winning a teamfight gives you 2-3 lvl. Man i really sucked for a whole game and now my lvl is higher then enemy midlaner with 7/1 kda
@WhitePerson-of course it doesn't happen much but it gives you a chance, draft has to be like that which is suitable for hg defense. I myself lost to hg defense a few times and also won by defending successfully and making a comeback across my dota 2 experience of 10 years
@kavalierdernachtno game is perfect but the higher ground actually gives you an edge, a shot at defending better, but your draft has to be like that which has strong hg defense, otherwise it will not make a huge difference
Calling the main mechanic that prevents snowballing and keeps tension ALL the way to the end a problem is the ultimate league player move lol
For dota players its not a problem. But for other ppl this gameplay isnt cool. 40 min every game u can trying destr t3 for lose game cuz someone dive. U can die 27 time and game dont punch for that. U can use tower protect buyback or ur team can wave clear before tower die. In league if u die after 20 min u can lose game instantly.
It takes 1 min to travel from your t3 to enemy throne with demolition of all towers
There should always be a price for mistake. But u can keep dying and nothing will change. Still can use protection buyback and delete waves. Its not a main fame meachanic. This is a boring and annoying action. Even with a 30k advantage you cant finish the game in 10 minutes
@benedictli8673 Ok, comeback after you played some and are not just repeating bs you read from other salty league players. Most matches are not like that. Yes its always possible to flip the game, but its not easy nor that frequent. A team that knows how to push (most teams outside very, very low tier) will take t3 in no time, and defending against a big advantage will most often end in a team wipe and quick finish, once people know what they are doing. Somehow you guys turn a chance to flip the game into "no punishment for mistakes", absolute joke, cope, and embarrassing attempt at defending your lesser game. Also skill issue.
@apocako I mean he isnt totaltly wrong ,its a game play balancing preference. There needs to be a middle ground for punishing mistakes and translating that into wins. LoL also has had a problem with this most recently to be exact, getting an advantage isnt what it used to be previously. But there is some truth to the game, Dota is a much more macro focused game therefore fundamentally its not as punishing vs LoL where you can die once in lane and literally just lose in higher elos, mainly from jg interaction. Because there are a lot of checks and balances to expect. If you are used to dota you probably dont see any problem with the comeback mechanics, and players of LoL do complain about snowballing every season, which is why riot tries and continues to push for changes for it.
Regardless, there has to be some comeback mechanics or there would be no point in playing the game to the full length, just pick early game characters and flip everything. Dota's might just be too forgiving to the average LoL player who doesn't understand where the real leads in Dota come from
@143tg You can have different preferences, but saying there is no punishment because there is a possibility of recovering is just cope
As a league player this video makes me want to give Dota a serious attempt
i would give it an attempt but not a serious one. Valve is more unserious about Dota than most companies are
@dangychoice7800 I mean that's not true lol. It's got probably some of the best hero balance in gaming history
@dangychoice7800 it's just taken a backfoot in their development cycle, with deadlock being prioritized
@Cosmic_42 people say this nonsense but there are always overcentralizing metas that get very stale
and valve takes forever to update it out, and when they do that strategy is gone for another eternity, instead of just getting backseated
case in point, we just had helm of the dominator meta, among other things and still no major update to the game after TI
and this is excluding wintraders, horrible matchmaking, matchfixing, bots, pro players griefing, etc
if you have fun playing and watching it casually, its good (assuming you play against other casual players lol), but if you take it seriously, you may get brain damage like me
Biggest thing Dota has over LoL, A working client
And the lack of chinese spyware bundled with a game. A big '+' if you ask me
Im a long time dota player, and recently tried league. And all i can say is the client is so off-putting it made me stop playing
@КейВольт Like what?
@CapitanDePlai Vanguard. It's a root-level (means absolute unrestricted access to the system) 'anticheat' they have.
And since it's closed-source and have developers NDA'd, it can perform any tasks developers were told to built into it. It's impossible to learn what it does. I had to use a spare PC to run the game
@КейВольт If you work in the government you should never game on the work PC either way. Vangaurd or not any game has all your data already.
Brother definitely got reported for that Treant game 😂😂
-if you attack your creeps the tower wiill stop hitting you.
-you can aggro the enemy creeps by right clicking any other enemy hero on the map.
- You can drop or sens to backpack ítems before using mana boots or similar to restore more mana/health
-
-
notably, even if the creep isn't in deny range (and therefore you can't actually hit it or deal damage to it), simply issuing the command to attack the un-attackable creep will swap tower aggro.
Unless you have triggered the more intense aggro by attacking an enemy hero within 500 (or is it 300?) units of the tower, at which point you have to leave that radius to be able to lose aggro. Dear god it's so complicated for new players lol
You forgot to mention that if you take Aegis in lategame you lose one of your six statslots.
You usually swap with defensive item like black king bar or linken sphere
So they just waste all of their ults on you, and when you revive both you and your team are ready to go
@weaponizedautism3269 Or your boots. You probably already have something to catch enemies/jump in at this point.
@weaponizedautism3269 sometimes put bkb in backpack can be a mistake because it will stay on cooldown few seconds when you respawn.. that can cause to get chain stunned to death.. but that is depend on the enemy or your teammate to save u
@weaponizedautism3269 up to u, but from my experience u blow the bkb charge before you die first time on you aegis. Thats just and old rule for me as a dota player. I dont know why but that just make you win the fight. You also wanna use bkb on ex. PA before u go in, in that sense it make sense becouse u wanna win the fight before u die, or get stunned. If u die then go bkb they will prolly know it as well, and your team might be dead. Think about it :)
@weaponizedautism3269
Nah just swap something less important like boots. You keep your defensive item, you don't need to die just because you have aegis and not having it can remove you from the fight entirely.
Edit: Also people will just click on you and see you have aegis and not blow their entire load on you. Don't assume that your enemy will be dumb.
the games often runs long, proceeds to go first item radiance on treant xD
good old DotA Allstars meta :D
Not every experiment can be a success. That wasn't one of my better ideas.
@tlee3205 it's not even a bad idea, until you try it and put it into practice to see what the problems are (IE, treant can't really farm fast enough to get it, doesn't get enough benefit once they do finish it), but experiments like this are how the Dota meta changes!
You're not the first and won't be the last to try something like this, and maybe some patch in the future could make it viable. Weirder things have happened in Dota.
@Manyorcas For how shit midas is and how unfitting dominator is, i think radiance is a valid farming item for pos 3 treant.
@Manyorcas it is only a very bad idea, if you want fast games ;) otherwise the build is fine, seen it before
As someons whos played both games i wouldn't wish this addiction on even my enemies
As a former league player, we exist. You do not have to install the game again, you do not have to have riot software running on your pc. There are more important and much more entertaining things than league of legends to do and play.
8:59 but that's exactly what I love about dota! No matter how much you're losing by, there's always a reason to keep trying instead of going "gg go next", because you might just catch the enemy throwing the high ground push, allowing you to turn the tides!
i've been in so many matches where the enemy just start taunting saying "ez game" only for them to lose after a rage dieback lol. the really long death timers really forces you to play like you only have one life and it's what makes it so intense.
Yeah, this is why dota is not for the weak minded.
Yup, the comeback 70 minute matches are so dopamine kicking because the reward of actual effort is victory!!
It's never too late to throw
this. In dota there are rules how to play from disadvantage and how to play from the lead. The game doesn't play itself. You want to win -> you have to know how to win, how to finish the game, you have to know what items to buy, what objectives to take, map control etc.
the dota glaze train never ends, let's keep converting more people.
this patch is just that good lol most balanced it's ever been
The problem Dota has, it requires about 100 games to get into it, but once past that, it is hard to get out..
😂😂😂 let's not stop
I'm about to try Dota 2 partially because of this video
I'm falling into the "Dota2 is better industrial complex" I'm a retired league player with kids but thinking of trying dota 2 soon
Also good to note - Valve didn't say "go 2 top 2 bot", and they don't force lanes and roles like League does.
Back in the day it was a 3:1:1 split with both supports babysitting the carry, and the offlaner being happy if allowed to sniff experience.
Players figured some two heroes combos can survive a trilane, and eventually a 2:1:2 became the standard - but even still it's not unheard of for a support to migrate to midlane to aid mid with a losing matchup, or a trilane happening, or both supports roaming all the time leaving all cores alone on their lane.
You can do that in dota - in league the moment you are mid instead of bot as support you get pinged and get the "Lane swap detected! Please leave the area!". Because you got out of the perfectly organized way league developers want you to play. Double jungle sounds fun? It did - so league force locked smite onto just jungler role - leaving the meta is a big no-no!
Bad player - go back to your designed lane and role!
I dont care about all those rules I just do whatever the game asked me to do is best
League definitely forces lanes and roles nowadays, but originally the game was in a similar situation. Players created the Solo Top / Jungle / Mid / ADC / Support distribution themselves around the end of season 1 and beginning of s2. Same with lane swaps in around season 3
Valve did kill early game jungling by removing the 30-seconds initial spawn and making the jungle creeps less valuable. Before that patch creeps would spawn at 00:30, 01:00 and every minute after that. The 3-second mark hits the timer of side lanes creeps meeting if not being blocked.
@jasonha4489 I was there for the season 1 chaos... It was beautiful - Tristana Twisted Fate top? No problem! Yi Nidalee bot? Sure! I think it was M5 who popularized jungle as a role in the youth of LoL e-sports
Also I think as well, when we talk about tri lanes etc, and lane mechanics, is that valve did try to implement a 2-1-2 lane, by making jungle creeps spawn at 1 minute instead, reducing exp gains from stacks. But the most fundamental change was the introduction of the tp gates, as it used to be a big deal about lane matchups, where teams would run up and down the river to guarantee the non dumpster match up,
and so tri lanes are no close to impossible in the pure sense, as it's a player is no longer stuck in the lane after they tp to it, they can now quickly swap sides.
The other major thing the gates do is make it more beneficial for heroes who want to roam early, makes it much easier to use tp for mid, and gate for the other side lane, rather than be forced to only roam to mid or be stuck on an 'island' after tping to the other side lane. Because of this new extremely effective potential to roam across map with little punishment for failing the gank. It is now much more beneficial to gain xp and levels in a duo lane while looking for gank opportunities.
If they were to remove the ganks or put a "timer" on when they're available, I think tri lanes would be more viable and may become a off meta option when the draft is extremely lost.
So while Dota doesn't force such 2-1-2 matchups they do heavily encourage what they think is best. And most healthy for the game (surprised they haven't changed/removed MKs mischief courier hunting yet).
I think this design concept of encouragement and not forcing is what makes Dota lanes so interesting historically and I do hope they do put less emphasis on the 2-1-2 lane dynamics and do make changes to allow tri lanes to be viable, as for a dedicated jungle I'm a bit sketchy on as it is extremely hard to balance (see Veno earlier this year) as with map size it can be extremely hard to punish junglers and then one team based on hero selection now has 4 individual xp sources compared to 3.
best part about dota is how sandboxy it is. all the tech like pulling, stacking, roles, etc. were all discovered and decided by players. you are free do w/e u want in this game
Exactly. That was the beauty of Dota. The versatility, the room for creativity. Almost any hero can be made into any role through leveling and itemization. Tons of items with active abilities. But this also became a problem over time. Everything devolved into formulaic builds, unfixable imbalances. I haven't played Dota for a long time, but that annoying Razor, which requires an item to vampirize ability damage, simply can't be countered in almost every game. Now some smart alecks will come running and say there are items that counter this, like Skadi, Shiva, Urn... Really? By the time you buy those, your base will be burning. And then there are all those one-shot builds, like Astral+Dagon...
@Пень1Бук1 That was a long time ago, the bloodstone old Razor shard build. Those were some scary times but rest assured Razor has been in the gutter for almost a year now.
@imfinishedgrinding638 there are new off meta builds like tanky viper satanic rush lina and str morph just to name few.
@imfinishedgrinding638iirc razor is kinda meta in the previous patches
Refresher, bkb, sny/satanic destroys anyone
Valve has respected the identity in how Dota is played for the most part. There are core mechanics and behavior of this game that haven't changed since warcraft 3 Dota. Sometimes even item builds haven't varied that much. Earthshaker who's team is ahead wants to rush a blink dagger is as old as the game.
the teleportation gate actually does have a cost, it takes mana to use
wait what?!
Just like the teleport scroll in general
@remusciuciu2840 It also takes the mana as you start to channel, so if you cancel and start again you will lose more mana
wth i played and watch tourney since twin gate was implemented and i didnt know it uses mana till i read this comment. u learn something new in dota everyday
@hastehamstercute4444 It used to be free at first, then they added a mana cost because it was essentially allowing free ganks/defenses by heroes with summoned units (ench/chen were the main culprits).
video hit the algorithm
in dota, i love how you can just adapt and transition into other roles. i was playing as hoodwink the other day and had to build damage items to compensate for our lack of physical damage. eventually, we ended the game with my support metric being 10 and having damage items on my inventory lmao.
I was playing dead lock with my friend playing support, he got soul advantage while I died. I told him to transition into spirit damage, went to be the top damage of the team
Dota noob here, you're so right that when I was on a losing streak (I'm mainly an offlaner), the pause suggestion gave me the "Often the best way to learn a Hero's weaknesses is to play a match as them.- " tips. Don't know if I'm supposed to be mad but the game sure was speaking facts.
@YantoWest offlaners are personally the most fun roles for me. you dont need much gold to come online and generally just need boots, some small defensive items (like bracer, etc.) and a blink dagger to make some plays happen. if you're on a losing streak against their carry, my main advice for you is to play safer (not aggressive) and be around your supports, looking for easy kills. if you got time, you should try to learn about what to do when you're behind on gold and exp! some heroes like lion will often opt for a more defensive approach with glimmer cape first before a blink dagger when their team is behind. glimmer being a defensive item, while blink is more of an offensive tool. carries behind on gold and exp will want to be helped by their supports, instead of trying to get a solo kill. tanks leaving fights much sooner, etc. it's just about balancing what you can and can't do depending on your advantage and disadvantage.
items late game, are often more impactful than whatever hero you picked. Counter items often changes fights from losing to winning.
anything works in dota honestly XD
Press "A" and then click any friendly creep in tower range and the tower will stop attacking you. Same principle as when denying creeps, but the tower-trick works on creeps with any amount of health
I love how intricate Warcraft 3 creep camp AI mechanics still applies to DotA2 over 20 years later.
League invites you in, plays nice until it doesnt. Dota dares you to join, never pretends to be nice at all is my experience
it never pretends to be nice, it in fact abuses you, reduces you to nothing and when you are nothing, you join others and become something and suddenly you realise you are a family in moments of pure bliss
league is fun but dota is the better competitive game. problem is dota sacrifices a lot of moment to moment enjoyment to be the better competitive game
primarly because of every game you get 3-4 screaming russians in voice chat. valve should've region locked the game just like in league. i dont recall ever meeting a russian in league, let them suffer in their own piss
@whiskoo9941 Hard disagree, I stopped playing league and went full dota because I find it much more fun moment to moment because you're never borderline afk like a lot of the time when creeps are dead or you're losing lane in league. In dota you can always do something due to how the jungle works and map mobility, and the more you engage your brain the more interaction opportunities appear.
@sttate i see what you mean, but also this goes for both sides of the argument. often times games in dota just stall out, 10-20 minutes of both teams just pushing waves and farming jungle. this can happen in league too, but its only ever 3 minutes waiting for dragon or baron spawn. even in a 1 sided stomp in dota, pushing highground can take 10+ minutes because of fortify, buy backs and characters that can so easily split push. turbo mode population goes to show how many more people dont enjoy the absurd length of time that games can take.
however, what i was considering momentn to moment was on a micro scale, not a macro scale. there is so much more nuance and outplay potential in every single fight in league than even the highest level of fight in dota. characters in league are designed to have counterplay built in for this very reason, many characters have skillshots, others have mobility to dodge the skillshots, everyone has flash to outplay. its the reason why in a professional game where a team like t1 is down 10k gold, its not over, they can just be the better players and win sometimes.
moment to moment fights are infinitely more fun and satisfying in league than dota, because most dota fights boil down to hero select, items bought and positioning+vision. there is very little room for actual mechanical skill and outplay in dota fights in part due to how little skillshots and mobility there is and bkb as an item, fights are most often decided by the minutes before the fight and not actually what happens within it. earthshaker will blink in and press r. tidebreaker will blink in and press r. phoenix will q in and press r. slardar will blink in and press q. every single carry will press bkb and click someone. all these things are just a given in a dota fight. it doesnt feel good to pilot your character like it does in league, half because the turn around speed can make movement clunky, and the other half that mechanical skill cant really be used to prove to others that youre better than them(with a few exceptions like meepo)
thank you for attending my ted talk
Ship of Theseus, not Ship of Thesis ⛵
Definitely as you get better at dota and climb the ranks, games end faster. Can't remember the last time I had a game over 60mins. Still never gonna be as quick as most LoL games, but they do get quicker the better the players.
Me, playing pubs since the BETA, games end fast here too, 5 carries vs 4 suports and 1 tank is easy.
its because most league players give up since theres an ff button and i think theres isnt much comeback mechanics in lol .
@LichKingg23 Still in Beta tho :D
agree currently im in div 4 - low immo and damn my games feel likes much faster than turbo when player know when to push etc it became more more faster
@LichKingg23 how long?, in my case with proper line up its like 25min - 35min
Active item is something I noticed I was missing when I got back to League from Dota, in Dota you want to build blink, eeuls, force staff, BKB, etc. So many options for making every decision impactful and having more options to outplay your opponents makes every Dota game unique.
There were active items in league several years ago. Riot removed pretty much all of them because a lot of players were too bad. A ton of things got removed or changed because people were not willing to learn
My favorite part about dota as a 10 years league player.
Is a support can be seen duking it out down in botlane from the getgo, instead of babysitting the carry.
1v1 support is fun to watch while im hitting creeps farming as a carry lmao. sometimes i can help but there are times that i cant do anything to help really
Dota also has very high damage supports like Witch Doctor, Hoodwink, Venomancer, or Marci who can out damage even midlaners in the mid game, ensuring that the support role is also fun to people who only care about big damage and kills.
@TheGlenn8 League has the same thing and people hate it. There is nothing as bad as seeing full squishy team and your support pick another squishy mage dmg dealer because he wants to deal dmg but doesn't want to farm creeps and play normal lane. Then it's insta lose before game starts.
@Dabliux
I think the difference is that those dota supports will still be playing like supports while dealing a gazillion damage. They still lack farming tools, so they will need to get a large amount of their gold from kills, so they'll still be going around making plays.
@TheGlenn8 dota players mentality is 1000 times better than league man childs
Yup. Recently picked up dota 2 after playing lol since 2013. And honestly I wish I played it sooner 🤣
Beautiful to hear
Wish you lots of fun. Dota 2 has so much content updates, in the past few years, they've slowed down. I'm referring to beautiful cosmetics, mind blowing TI matches. Hey, maybe if more players come, we'll get those again. But there are still tons of events and balance patches and what not.
me too, got in dota september 2024, got already 2k hours and 5500mmr
dota2 is so much better now, I love every little change they made but for me the biggest joy was the new map, it made Dota2 better than ever before with a simple but game changing modification.
Aw that's incredible ❤
every dota game feels like you're playing a tourney, having long respawn timers in lategame in tandem with the highground, makes comebacks very possible, and that fear of losing a winning match or the thrill of a comback makes dota 2 so fun (if you like to experience intense emotions xd)
It's not very often i find a perfect thumbnail, but this one is perfection.
I still miss the DOMINION game mode. I feel like that map was the biggest contribution to the MOBA genre since DOTA's creation. Riot actually made a new map, faster and more fun than the normal 3 lane mod and then they simply deleted it.
true, 3v3 was fun
Teleport and mobility being huge in dota 2 also makes the lack of jungle a non factor. Supports are ever watchful, ready to rotate or hop into any tower. You can counter a dive or sneak in. Instead of one guy sweating it out to make something happen there's 3. The mid and 2 supports. If one lane is going poorly you have opportunity. If your lane is going poorly you can have your offlane or carry play it safe while you teleport to another lane to force an issue. If one guy dies in lane and his opponent rotates then a support can swap in with teleport and soak xp and gold and even threaten a tower.
Dota 2 does go long, but its laning phase is exciting in a way that doesn't require memorizing specifically jungle clear times for every character in the game.
yeah ganking exists in the game but its everyone's responsibility except maybe a greedy pos 1 carry who needs gold/lvls. Pos 4 supports usually are roaming supports, so your ES or nyx or whatever should come mid or go top to gank.
I hated that there wasn't jungle in the game when I first switched over but overtime I realized Dota got this right along with the ideas of creating space, lane pressures, denying camps etc.
9:44 talking about how the cliff is the reason why games are longer then shows 2 carries tping to bot lane to get the wave instead of ending or atleast getting tier 4 towers
While I do agree that stalemates in uncoordinated groups are frustrating to play and buffing neutral objectives might help mitigate those situations, I also believe that giving too much importance to them and nerfing towers/high ground would make watching pro matches significantly worse.
People love to watch standoffs and crazy comebacks, no one that remembers TI4 wants to go back to a snowball meta.
Stalemates are fun in uncoordinated groups too. Games that a stomp with no way to comeback are the bane of fun.
Heroes of the Storm solves this by making neutral objectives very powerful tools for pushing base but making it hard to gain more than a modest advantage in teamfights/raw stats compared to DotA or LoL. This means the leading team can always force progress towards the game ending but can never rest on their laurels because even a team significantly behind can seriously contest a fair teamfight. The game doesn't snowball because being ahead doesn't help you get more ahead in how strong you are, and if the other team ever gets their act together and winning fights they can prevent you from getting any _more_ progress.
@EllipticalReasoning I disagree wholeheartedly. Ive played planty of HotS and I do not like that mechanic. How AI controls neutral units should not decide very competative pvp games. Dota2 once tries a yearbeast it was decided as bad.
@EllipticalReasoningHotS was fun
@EllipticalReasoningyou can say it’s solved but most people that had a problem with hots was that they never felt like you ever had a very meaningful lead and didn’t like the team xp aspect
5:24 The gate at the edge of the map costs 75 mana, I learned it the hard way
And make sure you don't accidentally spam click and spam cancel it. Using all your mana in like 2 seconds of clicking confusion
Yep, died many times because of it and my cluelessness
And on the early game, 75 mana is a LOT.
Such and easy fix too, you cannot start the channel without the mana but mana is only deducted after a successful teleport. Rito pls fix.
@alcatraz160 It's probably intentional so you can punish people you find pants down at the gate.
Very well made video. Been a Dota player for 11 years and it was nice hearing a new player’s perspective coming from our sister game.
sister? more like the incest cousin that existed due to evil parents, in case you don't know you should see a vid or 2 about LoL lore and what their "creators" made at dota allstars forums back in the day
Taking towers used to give a lot of gold, but that got toned down for a reason.
Towers give a lot of benefits for the team. Taking these benefits away from enemy team is always good for your team, especially since it takes away a spot that enemy can use TP scrolls on. This allows you to take control of the map, slowly strangling enemy and starve them off resources as your team gets progressively stronger. You also have better chance to take crucial objectives like Tormentor or Roshan with more map control. Imagine towers now also give a hefty amount of gold, this would make comeback significantly harder.
I do agree that taking highground is quite difficult, especially for lower ELO with low coordination.
Yeah TI4 newbee "solved" that dota. They realized simply killing towers gave so much gold (it was like 500 g for the team, thats a full kill + another 100-200 ish chunk for the one who last hit it) And it opened up the map as you said. More map control = more spaces to farm = more money. So they just picked zoo/pushers, stacked as 5 and ran at towers like theres no tomorrow. Matches were ending in 15 - 20 minutes.
Reducing tower bounty was the right call. And that was back when there were less camps on the map and heroes were worse at farming as a whole.
@dawg1744 I remember offlane role as the sacrificial role playing 1v3 hahahahaha
@calironnia6470off lane was the uncommon pg13 name too
That's a good call by Valve considering ratting hero wasn't fun to play against
My complaint is the high ground push -- lower elo games think after one won team fight(after being down as well). They can win the game with a single push dealing with buy backs and fortifications.
How many games were lost because the team refuses to Roshan or hey let's go back when our bkbs are off cool down or ultimates up.
I still remember playing jungle in dota 2 on alchemist
I started as a dota player but did have a few spells many years back when I'd get into league for a month or two before swapping back. Last time I tried to get back into league it didn't even last a week before I was back to dota, and these days whenever I get a bit of an urge to play league I just watch a bit of content and the urge fades. When you've invested as much time into league as you have I suspect the urge to return is stronger, but there might come a day when the itch is barely there.
Also the lane swapping penalties was what really cemented for me that I am never going to get into league again as anything more than a curiosity. I've never liked the way the devs try and restrict the game to a narrow, set-in-stone, experience, but at least something like tower plating was an interesting feature in its own right, even if it was made to enforce a set duration for laning phase. The ham fisted penalty approach reminds me of when Overwatch enforced a class composition for each team cause they couldn't balance their game without it, and that absolutely killed the creativity and fun-factor for that game, too. When even league players, who are used to being railroaded for the majority of the game's lifespan and actively encourage it by crying whenever something unique breaks the meta, feel like railroading is egregious then you know it's bad.
Dota lane meta is interesting as well because it's not fixed, we've seen periods where trilanes were popular (both supports go with the carry) and even dual laning mid
and you omit how long ago that was 2-1-2 has been standard for like 6-7 years
Man what a cool game, witnessing how the lane meta evolved from sacrificial solo offlanes to tri-lanes, late game HCs, fast pace, level 1 roshan, etc.
Makes me feel old but it's was great time
@goannaking1, it was never fixed tho, so it was a matter of... who will discover the new bad strat that will suddenly become "the strat"
Who knows... iwe might see trilane mid some day
@jemarcatubig3171 You're too optimistic, bro. Instead of hoping for laning meta shakeups, hope for meta defining hero changes that wildly change their possible roles. Dota is notorious for having the most flexible set of characters capable of playing multiple roles. Some can outright play any role like NP and WR and quite a few can play all core roles(Razor and DK). I'm convinced trilane, jungling and dual mid is not returning so I instead look at the heroes and item changes.
@imfinishedgrinding638 I can play Invoker on all roles but pos 1
It's like that meme "One's you've played Dota 2, you'll never want to stop wanting to beat Riot Games to death with your bare hands"
*once
Holy frack
Still remember the days of "fuck pendragon", it never changes
hell yea fuck pendragon all the way
@Kendrubbin Did those ever end?
@HonzoNebroWonder where that moron is now and what's he doing
I basically play league for tft and urf but i been playing dota by the 2023 its really cool how any hero can be invisible just by buying and item and because the map is huge you can farm and not necessarily forced to just lane till the end. A lot of items are interactive can dispel silences slows and others the talent tree is also awesome
Oh my god bro I just noticed you probably still not aware about 'creep aggro' mechanics in Dota! Please learn how to do this. There should already be plenty of videos talking about this mechanic in RUclips. Knowing how to creep aggro will make your laning phase much much easier (and much harder than your opponent if they dont know how to lane!!)
Hey, 16-year Dota player here. I also played League from S2 to S4.
I’m really glad to see more players starting to show interest in Dota 2. I saw someone say League is more like a combat game - you focus on mechanics, train your flash combos, and any small mistake can cost your lane momentum.
But Dota is more like a strategy game. You can always smoke for a wraparound play, blink in to catch their core, and it all goes back to that famous quote in the China Dota community:
“When you’re behind, League gives you a forfeit button. Dota 2 gives you a Divine Rapier.”
So yeah, keep it up. Hopefully more League players will give Dota a try.
But honestly, Dota is super beginner-unfriendly - all the complex mechanics, active items, and recent patches like Lotus Pool, Shrine of Wisdom, and Shards just make it even harder for new players to understand. And of course… the Dota 2 community is famous for its toxicity.
Still, I hope you guys find the charm of the best MOBA game in the world - Dota 2. Enjoy!
Hey man, I also started dota, I did have aroun 150 hours or so but that was maybe in 2015 I dont even remember 😂 But, it is kinda funny because I had no idea of items or most skills and heroes do. I just liked couple (tusk, charge spirit guy I forgot its name the blue one xD And centaur). I played core and offlane (I still no idea what other lanes mean I just know safe lane). I hit close ancient after 50 hours of gameplay. And, I did not even realise I climbed that high because all I did was play one game a day or a couple at the weekends. And, I loved it hahaha the game was awesome, you can use your mic to communicate because I find pinging is useless talking makes people move more 😂 And all I did was teamfight with the team as much as possible and always earn gold in free time (aka no teamfights xD) Then I quit again because lide got busy and now I am back at the game again. I barely met anyone toxic, but I hope dota players gather up and fight more using mic 😂 This is what a real moba is like, in league everyone is stuck in their lanes but for dota people can just show up and fight 😂 you think it is 1v1 then turns into 2v1 3v3 and 5v5 under 20 secs xD Love the game. And I just play for fun and do whatever I want. Too funny never realised ancient was actually a decent rank until I got curious what it means and checked it from google 😂
Eh, DotA toxicity is overrated, not like LoL is known for its upstanding and calm playerbase.
If you want a TOXIC community, you should try a Russian server)
Mmmmmmm, Divine
@BNik92 yea, I’ve been playing DotA for about 13 years and its been basically non existent in terms of toxicity for the past 5 years. Maybe thats because maintaining a good behavior score filters out most of the toxic people or because of the ranked bracket (chilling in low divine where people are competent enough to know what they’re doing but not try hard enough to incessantly flame others). But I definitely havent dealt with nearly any toxicity. It’s maybe like 1 in 20 games where i see someone get actually flamed, two people going after each other, or (even fewer) people running down mid/break items.
Idk, maybe its worse in lower ranks where people think they know how to play the game well and assume others dont. Or getting stuck in low behavior score hell (which is almost entirely self induced). I can really only speak to what Ive seem
I did that too, and it was one of the best things I ever did. My friends disapprove of my idea because they still play League of Legends, but I'm really happy to be playing something that's actually fun after a long time of just being addicted to it. My lowest point in terms of sanity was when I was one game away from being promoted to Diamond and I lost 15 games in a row, falling back to Emerald 4. Other factors also demotivated me from the game, like when they removed the old mastery system where my goal was to get mastery with all the champions.
I like this video and I appreciate that its not just a league hate train and a good source of info, been playing since 2013 and I love the game but it has changed alot. Next season seems exciting and im glad that they are getting rid of alot of the objectives which create the issues you mentioned. But I've been thinking of trying out Dota since it seems like it has alot of the things I miss about old league but it seems daunting to learn
The worst part of Dota is it has the diabolically high skill floor to enter the game as a noob, especially if it's yoir first MOBA game. Endless things to keep track of at every stage of the game, global map understending that won't come earlier then 100h playtime and shitton of unique skills and items interactions that even top 100 players in the world would struggle to aswer how they work (Like what would happen with a hero under AA blast and Oracles ult if ally Phoenix will target him with Agh Supernova).
You either dedicate yourself completely to the game, or you'll constantly be confused on what's going on and what should you do
Ana during one of the TI finals in the booth was asked by his teammate to do something and he responded with 'yeah sure I dont even know whats going on right now'. He was playing phantom lancer, a hero that procs spawning illusions on himself, can split his own form into multiple illusions, and is considered an AD carry by LoL terms, and the enemy AD carry was morphling, a carry who can transform himself into an enemy hero, in this case, then phantom lancer, so there were fights with upwards of 40 illusions fighting one another while 8 other heroes were trying to figure out what the fuck is even happening.
I disagree on it being hard if it’s your first MOBA. It has so many unique mechanics that other mobas straight up don’t have. Every Dota player I’ve known that tried league said it was easy mode cause they no longer have to worry about half tge mechanics they used to while vice versa lol players struggle when the game isn’t just streamlined the same way every game.
Thanks, now I know as a noob to just stay away🤔
@charmaincampbell346 just dont play competitive initially, there are many modes in the game, and you can even play community modes because valve allows players to make their own game modes
Also to reiterate this point, before the blink dagger change, if you tried to cast blink dagger further then the range, you would only go 4/5 the distance, famously Crit (a TI Winner) did not know of this mechanic after over a decade of playing and only discovered it on stream.
Honestly my hot take us they shouldn't have changed it, but I do understand why it was a needlessly complicated mechanic, but super fun and punishing mistake.
Dota is filled with these mechanics that you will come across once every 1000 games that make you just sit in awe, or fill you with unadulterated rage. And then you have moments that you never forget, like the first time I nightmare dodged a sniper ult that would kill my friend, I remember the health, the tower radius, and the exhale as I watched the cast time and hit it, as my friend said he was dead, then I casted it, and got the yo nice save. Can't remember if we won or lost but those are the moments in Dota I play for
One thing I like about dota, is that there are neutral objectives early in the game, the lotus fountain, the gold runes, the wisdom runes but they are all for the suports. The carries are farming in lane, trying to last hit meanwhile the suports are fighing a gorila warfare war in the jungle, blocking, stacking or pulling camps to lane, and the ever present the ward war.
When I'm the suport, the carry is there farming, while I'm here, in the jungle, fighting tooth and nail deep into mud and blood with the other suport, we are fighing for runes, for vision, for flowers and for odd purple lights. Then, after 10 min I see the CS of my carry: 13 last hits and 2 denies.
Yeah, playing support feels like you are fighting the battle of Stalingrad while your carry is playing "Whac-A-Mole" for 13 minutes...to buy an item so he can
Whac-A Lot Of-Moles, at once!
Support in dota is so fun you get to participate in all the actions
😂😂😂
Im an immortal level support, there is something so soothing getting a deep ward that you KNOW won't ever be countered, or securing vision for an entire enemy jungle while you pressure their T2, hoarding all the smokes and knowing that YOU make the decision whether or not we smoke gank. Carry says they want to gank, but you hold the key to the gank itself and you have to make decisions WITH your team.
I got to masters in league back in s6(?maybe 7?) and i never had this feeling. I felt like mechanically my adrenaline was pumping a lot more often and it was a lot more faster paced but it also kind of made me feel like a junky. The road to dota is fun if you have people to grow with because you can show your wins and losses.
I also found that (at least in the NA server) once you get high enough MMR, there's actual immortal pockets where peple inhouse with people at that rank and group up with duos and ive noticed i made a lot more friends that i ever did climbing in rank for league. All I got in league was somebody finding out my IP and DDOSing my entire internet lmao.
Dont get mer wrong I love the game, and i come back to play with my more casual friends but i swore off ever wanting to climb playing in league AGAIN in league because it felt like i was more of a therapist rather than a teammate.
@Zerostriker5 A wise desition. League is where players go to die. I had the same experience but in s10. I dindt climb past gold because I realised the same as you did and stoped.
As you understand the Game more and play with better players you will understand why highground siege is like that. It is one of my favorites parts of Dota. You can't make it idiot proof because idiots don't deserve to win, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for the win condition to be as deep as destroying the Ancient. Even when it feels like you're really ahead highground still can feel really hard, that's by design and something I LOVE! Is when both teams get to show their best aspects. Planning, strategizing, teamwork, risking, all shines the most when the game reaches that point. And is what makes the Game really interesting even when you may think it is already decided.
Dota is not afraid of giving you long, intense tight Games, because sometimes those are the most fun. The true issue on this is when the Game extends with nothing happening, this is something more common when players are really dumb or when they're waiting too long for a condition to be met. This is something Valve has been trying to tackle several times with variant amount of success. But changing how highground siege fundamentaly works would break the Game and remove one of its best aspects.
I would also like to add the more you understand and dive into Dota, the more wrong League feels, to the point of League feeling like a failed attemp at its own premise. One of the things that made Dota (and MOBAs in general) is the teamwork, strategizing, macro gameplay, player agency at controlling the game, flexibility on build and roles, emergent situations, etc. Things that made Dota a never-ending experience. And all things that League always seemed to dumb down to the point of hurting its own premise, feeling more like an arena fighting Game than the objective-based base defense that the premise suggests. Wich is also kind of sad because by League being so popular people kinda forgot what made these games so good in the first place.
Agreed. I feel the reason League is so popular is just because idiots don't want to read or actually think when they play.
I used to play LoL when it first launched in Beta and it was an okay game then. Simpler than DotA, but modern and new so it was fun. But then Riot decided they ruled the roost and they slowly began stripping the fun out of the game. When DotA 2 launched I switched back and never played LoL again. Best decision I ever made.
@sniperdubey Remember how Riot originally marketed league as "The game is easier and simpler than DOTA you don't need to think much and because it is easier it's much more better" plus the Pendragon drama too
I do feel like they can tighten the gameplay and make it faster though... I wish the whole game was balanced around the timings of turbo... I feel like turbo is a good length for an average game of dota just without any of the other quirks of turbo added... Also I think they should fasten the spawn timer for tier 5 neutral items as those r kinda the "idiot proof" solutions to ending a game... why does the spawn have to be 60 mins when tier 4 items spawn at 35... just make it 45 mins, that's long enough for any single game
@sniperdubey You know LoL's hero design is bad when it can't have ability draft
Yeah, that last paragraph is on-point. I used to love League, but Riot gradually -and intentionally - patched out everything I liked about it. Prolonged strategic fights testing your micro in a way few Dota heroes do? Gone, most fights are resolved in under 4 seconds. Alternative wincons (like Banner/Zz'rot tomfoolery)? Gone. Discussing strategy? Mostly gone, the game literally launches an objective poll at certain time marks. Build variety? Non-existent, and whatever slips through the cracks is quickly patched out (back in the day you could play Ezreal at least 3 different ways - AD, AP, Blue...). Active items? Almost extinct.
There's too much to list, honestly, but I think their original sin was creating Rengar (and later doubling down with Zed), which instantly made squishies without mobility completely helpless, you couldn't skill your way out of getting killed. Then, instead of admitting this type of champions was a mistake or, perhaps, adding some counter-tech to the item shop, Riot decided to give everyone and their dog a dash (which didn't really solve the assassin problem properly on top or becoming an even bigger problem in the long run, so they just nerfed them into ground a few times). And they kept trying to fix those emergent issues in a roundabout way, instead of addressing the core issue - that being unconditional oneshots - which in turn broke the game down in a dozen more ways over the years. Durability patch was too little, too late and came with an absolutely unhinged and counterproductive decision to buff tank damage.
Every single bit of powercreep since that day can be traced back to that stupid cat and the creative intent behind it. They wanted hype e-sports at any cost.
I also want to give a shout out to the sheer amount of options the Dota settings menus have to tailor your gameplay for preference and optimisation
I really like the point about dota 2 games taking so long to finish compared to league and it just boils down to dota 2 map objectives not being "idiot proof" lmao
yeah exactly. to me league's way trying to force games to end feels artificial. towers melt so fast, baron nashor buff, that one creep that spawns when your inhibitor is down. its like its trying to shove down "you lost" down your throat without actually giving you a chance to defend yourself and keep extending the match. i really disagree with him on that point. some of my best and favorite matches in dota 2 have been like 70 min games where i'm like mid kunkka clearing enemy mega creeps with my rapiers and having fun cuz even with just the tier 4 towers it ffeels like the game is still EVEN.
As a low bracket player, I've lost way more teamfights while having the Aegis on my team than I would like to admit. It's literally the "now you get cocky item" that induces blunders on our Herald small brains.
@xaevius5319don't get me wrong I'm sure these games are fun for you, but it is very uninteractive for many of the other players.
I mainly play 4/5 and in mega creep games I'm ready to fall asleep, cause all I do is walk back and forth behind the ancient to not be able to be picked off, and every 7 minutes but a smoke and maybe attempt to ward.
Dotas highground is a great mechanic to be used for a come back but in these 70+ minute games it ends up being a stall fest where the team defending can't win the game by leaving the base, but the other team is stuck farming because there is too much risk to try to push highground as it's their only lose condition.
This aspect should be changed, while it is not common it definitely happens too many times to be healthy.
But it's extremely hard to make a balanced change to protect the comeback potential of HG while also limiting the stalling aspects. They tried with t5 neutrals which sometimes do the job but not 100% of the time
not sure what you mean. Most of my dota2 games end within 25-35 minutes. Some go up to 45 maybe 1 in 10. And like 1 in 20 go above 50. If your games take longer than 35 minutes, its a skill issue. Which is fine, but thats lack of skill not bad design. Dota is designed for those that are willing to improve and learn to be rewarded, which is how it should be IMO.
@4our241 "but it is very uninteractive for many of the other players." for who? people that have no patience to defend and more than likely should not be playing dota in the first place if they're so strapped for time? "This aspect should be changed" no it shouldn't. see this is the problem, you people assume that that state of the game is a result of the highground mechanic when in reality you've guys made a bunch of mistakes in the early to mid game that now you're in this situation in the first place. if a game ever felt like "youre just stalling the game" and you're defending for no reason that tells me 1. you guys didn't draft well, 2. you guys definitely didn't win the early to mid game enough that now you're in the position you're in - at the mercy of the opponents.
This is the first time I've ever heard a clear and proper comparison of dota and league. Nice work! Ill be looking forward to your future videos :D
This was well narrated, researched and executed. A nice video, good job!
The hardest thing about dota is the steep learning curve; it's one of those "it gets good after 1000 hours" game. So seeing you enjoying it already is a good sign ^_^
Along along time ago there used to be a dedicated jungler. Also along along time ago there used to be 3 in sage lane, 1 mid , 1 off 😂 we been through many different metas.
fun vid :)
Tzar potato out here cradle snatching again
Caught the potato
i knew i'd see you here
@rayoscrost I am predictable!
@rayoscrost yep, knew he'd be here somewhere!
I've been League sober for about 5 years, I managed to scratch the itch by casually playing RTS games like Warcraft 3 and Age of Mythology. I think I'm too old for MOBAs, I don't have the time nor the energy to re-learn everything the genre has to offer.
Hell yeah, AOM is the best
I am a Dota players since 2013. I wish i could try league sometimes but I feel u, I am too old already to even try to learn everything that's in game 😂.
No worries. Dota is fine even for "older" players, as the player base actually grew relatively old compared to other online games. Quick reaction time isn't as relevant (outside of fast-pacedd characters) as in other competitive games. We had world champions aged like 26 or more, and those are literally the top of the world players.
Super insightful video from a League players POV coming into Dota. As a diehard Dota fanboy, I've always preferred Dota style of game design. Valve allowing the players to dedicate meta of the game, as opposed to Valve deciding it themselves.
This is abit self pluggy. But I've made quite afew Dota videos aimed at explaining what makes Dota feel unique
One final note.....you're also a BT/ Mechwarrior fan! You've got great taste
i much prefer the organic feeling of dota rather than the strictly controlled feeling of league. every champion in league feels like it was created for a specific goal and a specific focus, and you can't really stray outside of that. in dota, there's a huge overlap of heroes that can be played as supports or carries, magic damage or physical damage, with the ability to go any lane. league has highly synergistic heroes and abilities, while dota has random abilities on heroes that somehow work
IT'S THE VALVE GUY
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for the tower issue you can click a and click on any creep or other hero in the radius to change the tower to hit them instead so you don't have to walk out of the range.
I will try to explain how the tower "thinks" in DOTA.
First Law: I will Deffend my allied heroes from (right click) ATTACKERS.
Second Law: I will Defend my self from the closest (right click) ATTACKERS, as long as it doenst break the first law.
Third Law: I will attack the closest thing (right clicking) ATTACKING me, as long as it doenst brerak the first and seccond law.
Bonus Law: I have foresight, I know when the enemy RIGHT CLICKS to ATTACK my allied hero, therefore I will obey the first law.
Notice it just defend from attackers, not spells. And you can de-aggro the tower by trying attacking an allied creep, becuase of the second law. If you are not attacking the tower anylonger, it will defend itself from threats.
Creeps also follows the same laws.
So if you left click the tower and nothing else is left clicking an enemy player the tower targets you even if you're farther than minions? But if the minions are currently left clicking the tower you're good.
@Justin-lr6yf I forgot to say that the tower atacks the closest thing attacking it, so, if you (a melee hero) and 2 melee minions and one ranged ara atacking the tower, it will kill the two minions and then target you. The way you can solve this is to stop atacking just for a brief moment when the 2 melee die and let it target the ranged minion, so you can continue atacking.
@LichKingg23 So if it begins targeting a ranged minion for shooting it, even if you begin smacking it in melee again it will not change aggro to you and will keep shooting the minion, only updating the target once the minion dies to the current closest?
@LichKingg23 Also jesus fucking christ all of the tutorials are broken. I tried to get into the game like 2 years ago and decided not to since half of the tutorials worked and they still are just blatantly broken.
11:40 not sure if you are aware but you can reset your tower aggro instead of walking out by issuing attack command on your own creep, can be full health( wont work in case of proximity aggro, like when you are left with range creep and catapult.same way you can manipulate lane creeps with command attack on enemy hero (can be on the other side on the map) to get creeps to attack you and pull them to better position for you (sidelines usually like to play close to their own tower with some exceptions
One other good mechanic is that if there are no heroes on the map to send the attack command to you can also send the attack command on the hero portrait at the top of the screen.
4:00 typical Lina ult
But what if>>...
what if....
Deadlock.....
hehe
(but also!)
While I think your critique of the difficulty of highground is very appropriate, I think a bit of context is fair to offer.
Dota often gets balanced around what the pros do at the major tournaments through the year, especially what they do at The International (our annual equivalent of Worlds). This plays into highground's functionality in 2 ways.
The first can be narrowed down to one of the most influential tournaments in Dota history - TI4, held in 2014, which was pretty much the last tournament where it was possible to convert a laning stage advantage into an easy highground push. The finals for the tournament included a number of 20-minute matches where the losing team would concede after losing a T2 tower due to how the gold distribution system from that era gave the team that got an early gold and map lead an absurdly large advantage. After that tournament, the gold distribution system was ovrehauled to ensure that this would no longer be possible, and the game has in general been balanced to give more and more emphasis to getting an advantage through teamfights.
The second can be explained by how the various timed objectives are usually approached by pro players in tournament settings - where matches usually go to about the 35-min mark. Most teams at the pro level will draft themselves a way to take a teamfight/tormentor/Roshan at 20 mins after getting an important item on one of the heroes, and using that opportunity to go highground at the 22-23 min mark. If all goes well, they will take a lane of barracks, retreat to take Roshan, use Aegis to win the next fight and take another lane, retreat and farm up the next item, and either use the power spike from the next item on the cores to win the last fight, or wait for the next Roshan to get another Aegis and Roshan's Banner to push the final lane and then fight on the enemy highground to end the game. If one team wins their lanes hard enough, the timeline shifts 5 minutes up, but that is the general cadence of most high-level Dota, which drives the balancing of the game.
The fact that teams can concede also means that pro games will often cut out the last 2-3 mins of slowly taking down the base while the enemy team has conceded, but I don't think this is as big a factor as it seems at the outset.
In summary - I find highground to be frustrating as well, but having seen the alternative, I do think the current version is better.
While I agree with a fair bit of what your saying. I think you are very mistaken, Dota may of in the past been balanced around pros, but definitely not currently.
The philosophy has definitely shifted within game balance to favour the average players more, like look at the immortal queue change, everyone hates the player draft, and also lots of heroes have been busted for ages but require high mechanics to get value out of, and so it is not reflected in the AVG players win rate. Therefore the nerf is many patches late, or can even end up being buffed.
As for high ground mechanics, I think that it is unfortunate how it works, the t5 neutrals were implemented to force the game to end but obviously that doesnt always help.
I have a friend who has for a short time played pro, and he has been so reluctant to play Dota, because of high ground, he finds the fast pace of league and the punishment for stalling way more of a fun experience.
Dotas high ground in 95% of games is fine and playable, but even in higher brackets those 5% even if your team pushes all waves in, only pushes high ground after a pick off, has aegis, and banner. Still ends up being unbreakable, because of enemy heroes. And the fact that even if you kill the problematic heroes once they can buy back, it makes the game a joke.
All you can do is farm until a player does something dumb on the other team. Where you're playing for a win and the other sides only playing to not lose. It's very uninteractive.
Don't get me wrong the high ground needs to be hard to push to enable come backs, but at a certain point when the game can be held captive by a team camping in 5% of the map, there needs to be a solution.
So while yes I do think the base Defense aspect of Dota is very fun, and ends up playing major roles in massive comebacks, and the highground of old being a wet noodle and a formality, there does need to be a change to make it either easier to siege, or a punishment for stalling. So I definitely understand the frustration from learning Dota and then being held captive in lower ranks as your team 1 by 1 afk hits a tower and dies.
@4our241 To clarify - when I say the game is balanced around pro players, I mean to say that the game gets balanced around what they do at tournaments with a lot of viewers - i.e. when the outsized impact of a broken item/hero becomes too large to ignore when looking at Dota as a specator sport. I think the 2 major examples in recent memory are the post-TI11 changes to (and subsequent removal of) Wraith Pact and the post-DreamLeague Season 21 nerf to PA (i.e. after she went through a major tournament with a 60%+ win rate while being contested in nearly every single game, thanks to the 450 AOE blur invisibility). The point was not to say that changes will benefit pros or be based around what their day-to-day experience through the game is like - rather that tournaments with lots of spectators have the most influence on patches.
And yeah, I'm with you on the conclusion that the game as it stands does make highground a frustrating slog at times, and that it affects low-ranked games most negatively. It's part of why I will often go for weeks or months without touching the game. However, I do think that the very same aspects make tournaments more fun to watch, which eventually draw me back into Dota. (Yes, I do recognize that I have a problem.)
@rafaelmarkos4489yeah absolutely valid take on the balancing, and it's only going to happen more with the immortal replay change.
And yeah as I said there's not really a good fix, as another comment said, dotas objectives aren't idiot proof.
Its been an issue for that long I don't think it's going to be fixed, so while you may hop off Dota, I just end up playing turbo 🤣
One of us one of us
Not sure if worth noting, but dota did have jungling which got killed and then overkilled some more. The biggest blow was jungle spawning at 1:00 minute mark (as opposed to same time as lane creeps start (or were they always spawned initially?)), the other big blow was making all forms of lifesteal 1/5th effective on non-heroes. Lesser blows include removal/weakening of jungling items, increasing space between camps so no particular spot is too efficient, adding high-ground at the core of the jungle so you can easily be stalked in most places.
Same bro i started one month ago im having so much fun in dota not going back
2:05 Dota 2 needs all those neutral jungle creeps because of creep warding (stop jungle creep from spawning) and some Dota 2 heroes rely on taking control of specific jungle creeps (more changes to spawn the correct jungle creep)
8:40 The existence of a high ground is part of the draft (at least in competitive, either draft a tower siege hero or draft a team that can win a team fight and siege as a team), as well as provide the defending team a "comeback mechanic"
11:20 There is a logic to the tower aggro, there should be a lot of youtube videos that explain this
13:50 Dota 2 had jungle items before (Iron Talon, Poor Man's Shield) but these were removed because of how it screws up the early game
18:20 Dota 2 doesn't have many mandatory objective fights, but it does have a lot of time-based objectives to keep track. Stacking camps, river runes, bounty runes, wisdom shrine and tormentor
20:00 Dota 2 creep deny is an unintended mechanic that goes back to Dota's Warcraft 3 version that was ported to Dota 2. It makes "no sense" thematically but it adds a mechanical depth during the laning phase
thee only issue why dota aint as hype as lol is because Valve refuse to promote their game . That's it. Unlike Riot who give a lot of effort like animation, cinematics, collabs. Dota on the other hand barely collab, never advertise, the cinematics barely as well.
But it is still alive today because the game is of high quality.
I agree with you as a DotA player, it actually wasnt always the case we used to get much more "promotion" in the past but as the game has got older and the premier tournament of the year went from humungous 20+ million prize pools to under 4 million it seems to have gone with it too.
@watermelon58 the reason we dont have 20m+ prize pool is because they stopped doing battle passes for some reason. alot of people are really waiting for it to buy and spend money but idk i think valve hates money
to add the last highest paying international was also the last battle pass . dota 2 people arent poor but they just dont have anything to spend on
valve has always been insistent with community driven content that might be why
While Riot does do a better job promoting its game, promotion is not the main factor regarding dotas "hype", League itself, like all mobas are already considered hard to get into due to their complexity and learning curve, Dota 2 is League on steroids in some ways and not in a good way.
Watching Dota2 pro play is far less appealing compared to League with its mirrored match ups and more precise inputs/visual clarity compared to dotas BLinks.
Dota has a lot of non modernized aspects like no clear objectives for new players or viewers , complexities in item building,multiple components 9 inv slots, neutral items, courrier management, a second "secret" shop for specific items....
Basically Dota is very complex and complexity and visual chaos is not very appealing for people who are interested in learning, League is far more modernized in countless ways in addition to being simpler for both viewers and players + better/cleaner inputs leading to more micro "outplays", dota2 is clunkier and far more macro based.
And there is a plethora of things i havent mentioned...tower aggro,denies,countless "minor" objectives,no ff, 1h games, invunerable buildings....
These are not " bad" things but they all do add up to why Dota2 is less main stream and less "hype", dota2 is for a more specific audience.
great to see that dota is gettin love from other players from other games ❤️
8:30 reminds me of old twisted treeline lol... you could drag the creeps into fountain
I think what you forgot to mention thats super important to dota is that each hero is incredibly useful in its own way, if you get cooked early you can still be super useful later on in the game when it actually matters most. Also the items, being able to buy stuff that you need to play against certain comps and heroes is just so amazing and keeps the game dynamic. If you have an aoe ult but your hero has no inherent dash or way to get close you buy a blink in game, if you find yourself getting 1 tapped by the enemy carry or mid ypu can buy a ghost scepter or a glimmer or an aeon disc to survive. In league you get like a zhonyas or spellshield but you still get fucked in the end anyway.
Your tower behaviour bit is not fully correct. Dota's system is more complicated than that, and has an aggro based function that causes the tower to attack units attacking in its range as a priority. If you are a hero and you are attacking an enemy hero under the tower, the tower will take you as number you priority. You can break this aggro by issue an attack command against one of your own team's units under the tower, and the tower will de aggro you, and pick up the next target on it's aggro list.
this
RIGHT! Exacly my story, i have been playing LoL from season 2, tried Dota 2 few times, always thought its too complex.
Last year i properly tried dota2 with my friend who is high rank at both games and i fell in love with dota2.
LoL became so restrictive over the years, dota is so free. Its not as good mechanically as LoL, but strategicaly its far superior. The skill in dota is not about crazy micro and reactions, but about strategy and macro, itemization. You can play every champion atleast 2-3 different styles. You see natures prophet and you cant tell if hes solo lane, jungle, mid, carry or support and thats what i love about it.
I mean, that's if you only define "mechanics" as "landing skillshots" or, perhaps, "weaving combos"
But is juggling 3-6 active abilities and then 2-5 active items many of which can't just be fired randomly when the shit starts going down (as they have specific use cases) really easier than that mechanically? And, mind you, that's before you consider illusions/pets and funky direction and/or rhythm-sensitive mechanics like the proper use of Armlet, Shadow Raze or playing Puck in general. This type of difficulty doesn't even exist in League.*
Point-and-click abilities are, of course, easier to _use_ than skillshots - but the nature of said skills in dota means they're much harder to use _well_
* - except for Riven show-offs
@AthenaTennosNit also need to be reminder to all people. That deadly skill like laguna blade, finger of death etc. Despite targeting are disjointable.
In high elo. Reaction to use manta style in under 0.25 second needed (laguna blade only give chance 1/4 second to dodge). Yet, many able to do it.
All those dota complexcity skill demand fast reaction and strategy.
@AthenaTennosN i meant that objectively. Of course both games are in the same area but LoL focused more about weaving combos and Dota2 is more about preparation, right order of items and abilities. LoL has designed champions with mainly complete kits and there are no items that really change their playstyle. Dota heroes have “basic” kits that synergize well with items which opens new playstyle for said hero. Of course in Dota there are complex heroes, but you know thats not the main thing. If you eat chocolate cake, there can be some strawberry in it, and vice versa if you eat strawberry cake, you can find some chocolate, both are cakes. I was aiming on LoL having very restrictive gamplay and Dota being more open.
@YoungSweezy that's reasonable. I'm just a bit burned out on the whole "dota has no micro requirements" discourse that inevitably pops up in conversations like this one. Yes, yes it does, it's just a more RTS-ey type of micro (while League is closer to a fighting game with its combat sensibilities)
@AthenaTennosNexactly, i am definitely not saying that dota is easier or basic” far from it. Because of its more RTS leaned, its actually harder to leatn. There are so many interactions and strategies that LoL simply doesnt have, it has even day and night mechanic, so many things to think about in one dota match. On the other hand, LoL has very streamlined gameplan compared to it, but its more “fighing game” oriented. Champions have complete kits and items just enhance that with passives, macro is kinda simple compared to dota2. Thats why i find LoL micro oriented and Dota macro oriented. And trust me after 10 years of LoL it was a so fresh for me. I was blown away how open this game is.
Watching my team trying to uphill into pudge sniper
10:43 was that a rathalos?!???? what why
Dota is currently doing a collab event with Monster Hunter. At the start of the game you get to pick an enemy player to "hunt" by killing them first, and you get some crafting materials depending on which hero it was. You can then use those materials to create cosmetic sets for certain heroes. That dragon is just part of the map dressing for the event and has no effect on gameplay
Crossover like the other comment said, but also the hero Dragonknight whose ult transforms them into a dragon also got a skin for them too.
As well as palico courier and techies(a hero) skins and a bunch of mh armor skins for different characters too.
8:30 this is solved by acquiring the roshan's banner. if your team has a well placed banner, it forces the enemy to engage rather than try to poke from a distance.
I haven't played since grandma Snap was added I think. What's the Roshan banner?
@HazeEmry items that can make creeps invincible within its AoE
@erdyfrye that's newer I suppose. Good to know for if I ever come back
I went from League to Dota 2 in 2013 when they nerfed one of the coolest interactions in League at the time which was:
>Thresh throws out lantern
>Blitzcrank flashes to the lantern and grabs someone
>Blitzcrank clicks on the lantern and both grabbed player and blitzcrank return to thresh
Dota 2 on the other hand was full of these kinds of interactions (infamous pudge teleport fountain hooks)
Now I got 10.000 hours in dota 2 and the rest is history.
You swapped games because of an extremely niche interaction that basically will never come up naturally unless you specifically fish for it and pick 2 supports that may or may not be useful? That's some dedication.
@ClairicBeast No it was because nerfing that interaction was a clear example of which way their design philosophy was going. Anti skill and anti fun.
@Rekovniiexactly. And thats one of the biggest reasons for me. Played league since 1st season, but the creativity of combining skills(and items, alot of active items, and aghanim) sold me dota
The fountain hook is patched but many players are still making ways to fountain hook. So many interactions between abilities that people are still finding more loopholes.
Like that enemy combo against rubick, which is mostly impossible but it is crazy that it existed. Marci using Ulti and Tusk using the Punch, Rubick steals both, activates Marci's ult, Steals Puck's dream coil. And Rubick use Dream Coil against the enemy and it becomes a small Earth Shaker slam with small radius but instant kill.
@ClairicBeast people pick a hero for a certain reason and you can pick based on that, its a mutual thing that you simply know. its extremely likely to pull off because otherwise there is no point in picking them
The map on the right of your screen breaks my brain
i dunno man, actual former league player here, have not returned in like 6 years or so, and don't plan to.
Can't, even, cuz I'm on linux.
Still might check out DOTA
Dota is getting more and more mandatory objectives also. But until you go really high level people don't do it lol(or do it but when they feel like it). like every 1 min jungle camps/stacks, 2 min runes, 7 min experience shrines. min 20 tormentor and early rosh so that you can go hg with second rosh banner.
forgot about 3 min lotus
Yeah i hate the shrine so much. It's so lame
1:38 invested? It was right there. Why you didn't say hooked? It would be perfect.
This is like watching myself back when I dropped League forever a decade ago. You've hit on some good points, and it's interesting to see things from people who don't know the 20 years of dota metas, patches and strategies. I was surprised when you didn't mention turn rates at all, as that's usually a big hurdle people coming from league can struggle to get over, so if anything, I'm impressed. Well done, best of luck.
I played Dota 2 just for 3 months and stopped playing just before they expanded the map. It was so good. I was unemployed at the time and I played 1k hours in those 3 months. I was consumed by the game and I loved it's complexities. The ridicolous heroes that if they were in League of Legends they would break the game, Naga, Phantom Lancer, Terrorblade were my favorite and I was pretty good with them and I was winning with them, even though I started with Terrorblade 0/5 win/loses I would eventually end up around 55% winrate I just loved playing pos1. pos 3 Dark Seer was one of my most favorite too, I still remember games where I ran across the entire enemy side being chased and escaping and "creating space" that way. Then just like that I had bad game that left bad taste in my mouth so I took a break and eventually I didn't end up reinstalling Dota 2, but once in a while I see vids that praise Dota 2 and I have urge to reinstall. While Pos1 and Pos3 were my favorite, I tried pos2 a lot too, but only played it because I remember enjoying heroes like Zeus and Windranger. Also I played a lot of Spirit Void, but I never ended up doing good with him, like I did with TerrrorBlade. Ah the memories, makes me want to reinstall. :D
That's my experience as well, reached a quite high rank. Had to uninstall after a very bad game. But what I realized after a while, the reason you needed to take a break is because you care. It's high and lows are so good. That when you dominate the game, its so fulfilling but when its a really bad game it feels so bad.
@fenrirdarkness1374 Yeah, unfortunately, you cannot have highs without lows. When you have a great game it can feel like you are above the World, but that is why some bad games can feel like your are a worthless human being. You cannot avoid it if you are invested into competitive game, so if you wish to keep playing you have to accept high polarities of high and low.
@fenrirdarkness1374 Btw, that is also laughable when people say "don't be upset, it is just a game" or something like that. Every single player experienced those opposites if they are invested into the game. And if you are not invested, you not gonna perform well or feel much of reward (though you also will not feel frustrated).
Dota towers are much more interactable than mentioned. They target things that are attacking at all so if you stop attacking when a creep dies it should pass over you, as well you can issue an attack command on any ally including creeps that will remove the aggro from you.
Yes, that's why you can stop attacking a creep if you are a melee before it swap target so you won't get flagged
its a conflict in design
DOTA solves their problems by making players do something about it, essentially saying "you can solve this problem, but only if you do this". LOL devs address it directly, making players with a "you have to do this, you dont have a choice" feel.
LOL late game is about securing stuff to end the game. - GAME OF OFFENSE - Laugh Out Loud level of - if i kill objective we win
DOTA is about holding out to somehow win the game if the enemy makes a mistake. - LITERALLY DEFENSE OF THE ANCIENT
Best example is your jungle role gripe...
in league you have to be jungler, you have to be ganking, if someone else does your job for you they are going to be on a bad spot.
DOTA hoever... if my carry decides to gank because he feels strong and saw an opportunity, THATS CALLED A GENIUS PLAY!
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Second one, is that LOL is so bad in wierd picks.... you cant play teemo carry.
DOTA? Techies carry, Mortred support,
@jemarcatubig3171 I agree with weird picks but please don't go for Techies carry and PA support. Go for unconventional roles on heroes that actually work even in pro play like Terrorblade offlane and support , Alchemist (4) and Sven (5) support.
@jemarcatubig3171 to add to that point; i had a spectre hard support the other day and told us at the end of the match that he had to build damage items in the final minutes of the game, because we simply lacked a bit more physical damage to end it. i just love how you can just do that and adapt on the fly! it also kinda reminds me of that one pro player who never bought blink with enigma, but he rushed boots of travels 2 and just tp to his team and just blackholes the nearest guy messing with his core lmao.
@miraqen7801 bro i saw a Shadow fiend pos 5 the other day and somehow it fucking work, this game is dumb sometimes even in the middle brackets lmao
I played SF on every position from 1-5, super versatile and fun hero (11k mmr btw), why i can do that? Cause different item builds allow me to do it, unlike LoL where I can't build differently.
The tower aggros the creature that is attacking them in that moment, if a creep is gonna die, deny it and you'll see the tower will never target you unless you are the last target in range
@11:30 Unfortunate for newcomers, but part of having a rich and complex game with layered mechanics is that you can't just build it for the lowest common denominator. The very things that make dota more interesting than league are the very same "not idiot-proof" mechanics you're discussing, imo.
My boy made it out of the gulags
In low MMR theres no real mandatory objectives but the higher you climb the more you'll realize the importance of objectives
Yeah I found that entire part of the video really weird. There are constant objectives in modern day Dota that force teams to fight over at certain times. Bounties at 0:00, water runes at 2:00, Wisdom Shrine at 7:00. And ofc there’s bounties and power runes and blocking/stacking camps, and rosh and torm. Most of the difficulty in getting better is hitting your item timings and being in position to contest objectives as soon as they become available.
Free 1400g item for the leading team is insanely strong, and he said no one does tormentors at low ELO, that kinda checks out especially since many of the supports who will have the lowest net worth have the strongest shard upgrades.
@jacob1121 In higher ELO I've never seen the tormentor be up because once it does, a team will take it. It's especially crucial for support since they have so little net worth that 1400g they can buy other important support items.
@FaliggetFTW He just highlights the problem for your average LoL player. If it isn't an obvious blinking objective with a huge arrow sign, but a tiny bit more subtle, it flies over their head.
bushes in league is a big pain point for me. Half he time they work, and I dont know why or when I am invisible for the enemy, they just start autoing.
Outlast (LOL) vs Outplay (DOTA2). Simply the basic difference in philosophy. And that's pretty much how DOTA runs completely away with all the complexity it can think of, because its idea of "I know you're great at this, but you're never good at that" as a design principle is the real drive. It doesn't hurt either how balance is (supposedly) heavily obsessed with every patch, making for a game that should be responsive enough if not fair. Also, let's be honest - LOL feels like an endurance run than an action game; DOTA2 has inescapable action
I mean teamfights in LOL lasts for like 10-30 seconds unless enemy is buying time and running away while Dota takes a minute or even more in teamfights making the suspense in farming quite exciting for a 5v5 take Liquid vs Planet ODD in TI7 or OG Base Defense in TI8 Upper Bracket FInals vs PSG.LGD
@FP2_Shrimpthat's an expected effect with DOTA being practically "anything goes", LOL's team fights being shorter just reinforces the part about it being kinda averse to real combat and carnage. Real combat means clawing and cheating your way out of getting killed - and DOTA serves the cheats in not just the features but the broken items and skills the heroes can have at their fingertips
This is a false dichotomy since mechanics matters 100x more in league I’ve played both for years and am not low elo in either
@sofattia7940which mechanics? The one that's still not there even until now? Like the town portal teleports? Or the courier?
I can agree with you that mechanics could matter more in LOL, just by the fact that they literally never touched the above and a bunch of others so that the remaining mechanics that they DID allow in the game perpetuates the balance they can more easily control from a design perspective. A bit lazier compared to DOTA2's allowance of just about any mechanic imaginable, but sure I guess in that sense mechanics matter more in LOL that way
@TheGrifhinx You're not talking about the same things.
DotA is more focused on macro (controlling the map with TP scrolls, wards that don't expire, courriers), while League is more focused on micro (fast paced moment to moment gameplay and pushing the smallest advantage you can get in your matchup).
Think of what he said about camp pulling to break a freeze.
That's one less mechanic for League, but that makes freezing just that more powerful. If you are strong enough you can even deny some xp on top of the gold from your opponent by zoning them out meaning you get your next level earlier than then and can make a play out of that.
Speaking of a macro mechanic that League has but DotA doesn't : recalling. Setting up a good recall so you don't lose out on xp and gold or allow your opponent to setup a freeze, ie lane management, is an art in and of itself.
You can screw yourself out of a winning position by recalling badly because when you go back, the minions are close to his turret, but not close enough to aggro it and make it push so he can farm safely and he just freezes the lane there. If you walk up, you open yourself for a gank, if you don't, you can't farm.
In League, you try to win your lane so you can take objectives and then win the game off those objectives.
The objectives in DotA aren't as long lasting and powerful, so getting them doesn't seem to matter as much, so being in a position to get them isn't that important. You'd rather farm safely and work towards your long term objective / control the map so you can farm. You're playing for the economy, in a way.
Yes, there is more fighting in DotA, but you can't really translate that into a win condition. At least that's what it looks like from the outside in.
In Dota 1, I heard there was a 6 HOUR long match. Dota gets crazy.
6 hours could happen but will most likely be people agreeing to just chill or the stomping team keeping the other side hostage.
Playing dota since beta and my longest match is 2 hours something but that was years ago.
17:34 please do not place your venomancer plague wards like that (on the camp). You can click alt and see the camp borders, and if your plague ward is inside the camp, the neutral creeps won't spawn. Also you don't use the creep aggro function, it becomes noticeable at the end of the video (gyrocopter (you) vs viper clip, troll (you) & disruptor vs luna & jakiro clip). I can tell you how to aggro creeps below (if you answer this comment) or even show you this in discord if you want! it will make your dota experience more comfortable
Glad i wasnt the only one who saw that, if am playing pos1 in that game i am crashing out my veno is blocking every camp
@scottbowers7431yeah, it's just a habit when you see mistakes like these. But for low ranks, if you block camps like that as venomancer, you might probably help your teammates to gather and finally go together somewhere?? However, I ain't sure whether they gonna come together or spread on the map and die one by one, but it's good theory to check
Yeahh
Game lengths are very okay for me. My longest game is 85 minutes and I enjoyed every second. The thing is dota doesn't force you to end the game in 20 minutes. It is all strategies, which is good.