Dmitry, we do both. We prefer Grace Ice and Water Shield. Our second choice is Owens Corning Weather lock Mat Ice and Water Barrier. We rip the 36 inch roll in half to create to 18 inch strips then we put the ice and water shield down on the deck and roll it over the deck shearing and onto the facia about 1.5 to 2 inches. We then do the same to the rakes. Next we install the drip edge all around. Then we install a full layer (36 inches) over the top of the drip edge and the underlying ice and water shield. We have never had any issues with inspectors and we have never had any issues with the deck, rafters or trusses. Thanks for all of your excellent videos. Best regards to all. Blessings...
@@tchornomud We simply roll it out, measure, snap a line and cut with a razor knife. Tip, we use a 10 foot piece of 1/4 inch by 4 inch steel flat bar. The weight makes it real easy to hold and cut. We have cut the roll in half with a band saw but that was a mess. We cut a lot of thin strips of Grace ice and water shield and use it like heavy duty tape for a vast variety of other uses as well.
This is obviously the best way. I'm not a roofer, but the second he posed the question, I paused the video and thought how I would do it before watching and your method is exactly what I came up with
First I cut the 36" roll in half to 18". Then I wrap the ice & water down the vertical face of the fascia. The remainder goes up the roof. Drip edge next. Then Standard 36" roll of ice & water. I've replaced too many rafter tails and fascias doing it any other way. I've even began using green treated lumber for the fascia board. This method will never rot.
When ice and water first became available in our area, we put it over the drip edge - thinking, over, over, over was the best way to keep water running down the roof and away from the house. However, we quickly discovered that when the ice and water, being an asphalt product, expanded and contracted with changing temperatures, it rippled the metal drip edge and therefore also rippled the the shingles that were on top of it. After that we started putting the drip edge over the ice and water but maintained the over, over principal by starting our synthetic roof paper at the eaves (over the ice and water.) We eliminated teh rippling and but kept the sealing advantage of the ice and water. This also eliminated the problem we've had with removing old shingles from ice and water that was put down 20-25 years ago. It can't be down in some cases. We've had to tear up sheathing on some roofs in order to remove the lumpy remains of old shingles that are permanently stuck to the ice and water. The manufacturers didn't tell us about that 25 years ago when they said ice and water was the way to go.
I'm have the biggest tip of all. BE AT HOME WHEN THEY DO THE ROOF AND WATCH THEM. I wasn't, and even though I selected the ice and water shield and saw the roll before I got to work, they were not installed, and I didn't notice till a month later.
Actually, I live in Will county Illinois and code actually allows two approaches, you can install ice and water over your gutter apron or under, however if under you either need to strip in an additional ice and water over top or alternatively, you can have your synthetic overlap all the ice and water and over your gutter apron
Use pvc trim for your facia board. Pvc trim is impervious to water. Make sure your pvc trim hangs below the wood that it is fastened too by a couple inches. Having the pvc hang below the wood that it is fastened too will make sure water cannot wick back up and onto the wood. Next lay your ice and water shield down and let it hang over the edge by a few inches so that you can fold it down onto the pvc trim and create a water tight bond. Drip edge goes on top of that, then starter shingles. Im not a roofer, but i have done a few roofs on my rentals in washington state. In my opinion this method that i came up with is the best way to make sure water cannot physically penetrate the structure in any way.
I live in upstate New York near the Canadian border. We get ice build up that is unimaginable to most people. Our codes call for it over the drip edge and also two rows of ice and water. I sometimes use three rows and start to dry in with a half lap over the third row on flatter roofs. We tend to over kill everything up here. If I can find a way to overlap something to make sure the water is diverted, we always take the extra time to do it. We also don't use gutters up here. Anyone that has gutters takes them down before winter so the apron is redundant for us. If we left gutters on in the winter they'd just be ripped off by falling ice. Even on the bottom it's drip edge first and then the ice and water.
@@devonblaine I'm in Canada, north of New York... everyone has eavestrough (gutters) and keeps them on all year. Sliding ice usually flies right over... mostly!
Here's a thought: Eves Edge Put a 1st layer of Ice/Water barrier down, so enough of it goes down the facia board to be hidden edge behind a gutter. Then 2nd, install drip edge/gutter apron. Then 3rd, install another layer of Ice/water Barrier over the drip edge - with lowest edge of the Ice/Water barrier up to the horizontal edge, before vertical plane of the drip-edge/gutter apron. And the 2ndIce/water barrier will be off-set above the first layer by the distancethe 1st layer was installeddown the fascia board - maybe 4-6 inches?. Then you have Ice/water barrier protecting facsia boards, and covering drip-edge/gutter apron nails too, with one layer aboove, and one below the drip edge/gutter apron! Then your ready to install another layer up-roof from the 1st two down low. Cost a little more, but sleep better without images of water leaking at the drip edge/gutter apron, going through your head on Christmas Eve! And.no matter what code you have - this method meets both under and over the drip-edge/gutter apron situation, one way or the other, done! It's just a thought - take a survey!
1' strips of Ice Guard onto roof deck and wrapped to fascia. Install DRIP. Then go ahead with your full roll of Ice Guard over the DRIP to cover nail penetrations. It's called the Double Wrap method and it will not fail
@@edymolina2801 that's a good method as well. Can get a bit messy if the installer is not good with a trowel! ...but you have hurricanes (extreme wind) to worry about lifting up your roof in Florida so it makes sense. Actually a lot of the old cedar shake roofs that I've torn off had the starter course laid into mastic that same way...from before they had Ice guard Membranes
As a former Philadelphia area contractor, if new capping was being installed I would cut a 36" or 48" roll into 12" rolls, down fascia and onto roof deck, install drip edge, then install full roll over the drip edge. That way it's local code compliant and I could guarantee to my customers that they will NEVER have an issue. But MUST use a high quality product that sticks to itself permanently. My favorite is sharkskin ultra sa, super aggressive adhesive, once it's pressed on its impossible to separate. It's a bit pricy, but worth every penny. It makes a complete seal so no chance of ice creeping in. In Florida were I live now, can be over or under as per installers preference, but drip edge must have a nail every 4" and 4" min roofing cement around all edges of the roof for hurricanes. For this I prefer on top because the cement bonds to the metal and won't tear off with the underlayment like a lot did during Hurricane Ian that just rolled through my neighborhood.
Yes like this depending on details, basically 1st stip 1 inch above the drip on deck so full sheet of self adhered material has sandwiched the drip. 1st layer seal nails in drip 2nd covers. Especially great in metal roofing applications.
If its steeper than 10/12, it doesnt really matter unless you're that bad of a roofer. The lower slope the roof, the more you have to protect it. The steeper it is the faster water sheds. I'm a steep roof specialist and I've made repairs at the eave of steep roofs because someone placed drip too tightly on the fascia so it sat on top, not over the fascia creating a "pooling" area. So if you're Roofing a lower slope, nothing wrong with an extra layer of protection under the drip, and if you're on a steep beauty, rope up and roof right
Another big misconception is underlayments to stop leaks that's secondary if water gets under the shingles you screwed up somewhere It's a vapor barrier here in Canada for the most part that protects the decking ventilation is very important as well you don't want to mix your vents either having a whirlybird and box vents is no good you can create cross ventilation happening
I am a home-improvement contractor and I’ve seen hundreds of poorly installed roof with subsequent rot of the facia board one by two wood drip edge and soffit. It always boils down to inadequate drip edge flashing. Quite often the roofers down here cut the underlayment, whether tar paper or synthetic, too short and then try to cap it with drip edge it always leaks. I always tell my roofers that I want a custom drip edge with at least 4 inches of material that caps the two by facia board and goes over the roof decking. Then I like the underlayment on top of that it can always be caulked down on top of the flashing.we never have any call backs for rotted Wood on our roof with that method. We also use storm and ice shield on low pitched roofs.
To further input for Will County IL and other areas in IL…. You can install the ice and water shield first (as it should be) then the drip edge and then any kind of underlayment (I&W or synthetic) over the drip edge and the remainder of the roof. That is per Will County and Bolingbrook IL. So do your own cost analyst to see what cost you more or less.
Totally agree! However, in unincorporated will county, that method is not allowed with synthetic felt over the drip edge OR anything over ice snd water if its granular.
When I did my roof, I had the roofers cut one roll of ice and water barrier in half and apply that first, hanging 3 inches down the facia. Drip edge was then installed. Last, ice and water barrier was applied on top of the drip edge and covered the entire roof. Otherwise known as the "Hybrid Method".
I inspected a new roof yesterday on a mobile home with no underlayment and some messed up flashing We just got a biblical amount of rain in California the last month and no water leaks for now but please put underlayment on your roof 👍🏻
Down here in Florida we do underlayment first, then drip so when we get inspected they can see our nailing pattern on the drip. On the flip side, we like to do underlayment on top of the drip when transitioning to an aluminum flat roof etc.
I saw one roofer's video who pointed this out. Eves edge - For cold climates, he likes to remove the gutters (or there is post roof installed - preplanned gutter installation) and he puts the water/Ice barrier all the way over down the fascia board, to the point that it will be hidden behind the gutter when installed/reinstalled; then put/nail the drip edge/gutter apron on. Then no matter how bad the water becomes and ice dam in the gutter, etc - no way it can get under the ice/water barrier. And nailing thru the ice/water barrier to attach the drip edge/gutter apron, it will seal the holes. And, you can always give the nail's exposed heads which are holding the dripedge/gutter apron a shot of tar caulk too!
In So Cal, we aren't going to have any ice dams. It almost never gets below freezing. It is a no-brainer to put the drip edge down first. Then the underlayment
I'm in Michigan. Code is bottom drip on under ice and water and side drip over underlayment. They also prefer ice and water half strips up rake edges. We do over kill and do half strips under drip edge hanging over facia and then come in with our full rows of ice. Always 24" past interior wall line
If there is no gutter I put it on top of the metal. If there is a gutter it goes under the metal. I’m sure everyone has their way, but that is the only way I will install it.
If you find shingle stuck down to ice & water you can take a propane weed burner and warm them up a bit or if it is hot and direct sun will soften them so you can lift them off. I use either 5# or 11# propane cylinders on the roof. Use a heavy duty bent scraper to lift the end up a bit and grab them with gloves on. If you rip off the bottom portion of the shingle the sun/heat applied works quicker and won't turn them into mush that pulls apart. If you are lucky catch the North or shades sides early in the morning when it's cool and you can sometimes pop them off fairly easy. Just add an extra man hour day to the price. Sure beats tearing off the plywood deck.
Great presentation! As a prospective owner who plans to have a new house built in Upstate New York, I found this IWS or DE first dilemma very interesting. Ice dams and leaking roofs are common up here. I would opt to pay for more product to have the "sandwich" application on my house.
I've had to educate SO many roofers on this topic! I've met many roofers who get this wrong. On the eaves, the drip edge is to be installed UNDER the underlayment/IWS. On the rakes, the drip edge goes ON TOP of the underlayment. And staples should never be used!
Ive used shark skin SA and FT synthetics SA butyl underlayment. Both are superior products i will utilize in the future. Easy to work with and hi temp rated, lays flat. Shark skin offers an 8" roll perfect for sealing your drip/apron above to the SA product below.
We're following the Fortified standard with an IKO CodePlus system. In Dallas, so we don't require IWS at the eave. So, combining CodePlus with Fortified, we do IKO Gold Seam tape first--2 inches on the deck, cover the gap and go down the fascia. We're also taping all the seams in the decking with the Gold Seam tape. Next, we install our synthetic underlayment. Then we install drip edge we fabricate from 24 or 26 gauge metal - 2 inches on the deck and 2 inches down the fascia, nailed every 12" in a staggered pattern. Then we use IKO's double sided self-adhesive starter before installing our first course of shingles. That edge is totally sealed.
Our company in Olympia Washington area does 3 inches of the ice n water over the fascia and metal over the ice n water. Then underlayment over the metal. We have lots trees that fill the gutters up with debris and water then splashes up under the metal and damages the edge of the decking. If we do not do it, it will rot the face edge of the decking. The gutter then goes over the 3 inches of ice nwater on the fascia. If we do not remove the gutters we tell the customer it will not work to ice n water over the gutter. If the edge of the decking is not protected then it will wick up every time. We do not have ice wicking problems here like they do in other colder climates. Once in a while it will wick up the valleys where we always do ice n water but very rare.
I can understand why there's a 50/50 poll here. The different regions in the US have different requirements. In Illinois, Drip edge (ODE) is only allowed to be used at the Rakes, and Gutter apron is used at the eaves. So Ice and Water shield is required to be on top of the gutter apron at the Eave and under the drip edge at the rake. On new construction the Ice and water is applied and draped over the facia board 2"-3" at the eave, with the Gutter apron on top of the ice and water shield.
I wish you’d include a southern heat/hurricane winds component. We have various codes over the south, the most stringent being in south Florida but recent tornados have taken their toll and other southern states have started making changes. It would be nice if contractors would communicate the need to homeowners. What we need to be thinking about before we reroof and potentially tie down our roofs would be helpful.
I do flat roofs and we put ice n water shield fist then the drip edge then we roof over that ,so this the same system your talking about, now if I put the drip fist, it can back up in the drip edge
I was taught snow ice shield wrapped down onto facia, drip edge 2nd layer snow ice shield, more depending upon slope, on our mobile home snow ice shield from eaves to ridge, 2:12
One must hand the roof, not air nail. Air knocks holes in the Shingles. Especially when they're cold/ Brittle. I should teach roofing, 67 years experience, plus three generations before me, started in 1924. I have roofed from coast to coast. Put on some that will last 300 years. My mother was a roofer and hand nailed 15 squares a day.
in days of old, we did it both ways. It depended on the roofing material, and the approved method for their material. There was an inspection. We did shingles, and white rubber, and black rubber.
Water runs down hill… think about it like duck feathers…. Drip edge…ice and water to code… synthetic… shingles… vent and cap… if water does ever enter the system for whatever reason the water will not damage the deck, fascia, soffit, and possibly gutter system. The only possible reason to put ice and water first would be for wind protection and if you use starter ( which you should). Always great content! Thanks for your contributions.
I live in northern California and it might surprise you but there are roofers who fail to even use a drip edge, yes we do have building codes but quality of inspector's attention to details like this depends on the area. Personally I have pondered this very question and there are good arguments for doing it both ways, the local climate weather condition might be the final rule on how to treat the drip edge.
I have seen condensation marks EVERY SINGLE TIME that I have taken drip edge off that was under the weather guard. I can support this method, ONLY if there is window tape, or ice guard strips under the drip. We so it under the drip, but extending at least 1/2” over the fascia, so anything that gets under will be sealed and drip in gutter. Finger width gap behind drip. On low slopes I have taped, and installed over drip edge on lower slopes that we Ice guarded.
So, if I understand... first, IW strip on the roof plywood, but curled over and pressed against the fascia. Then gutter. Then drip edge, but with a finger-width space between it and the gutter. Then IW again over the drip edge. Do I have it?
@@renurenovationsllc7780 Thank you! I live in So. NH. I'm taking a bold leap and trying my hand at repairing some fascia rot on an inside corner of two roofs. I know the fascia needs to be replaced, and I have no concerns about ripping off the gutter, but the trick I think is going to figure out where the moisture is coming from (a hose test directly in the gutter comes out clean), as well as how to retrofit new IW sheild underneath the shingles where it's needed. More video research to do! Thanks again.
WRB peel and stick directly on the roof deck if your not using zip sheathing then drip edge then Ice n water our code req 3ft on rake and 6ft on gutter i actually do entire roof with ice and water now you have 2 layers of protection .
Fantastic video, thank you. You take a poll & also take local codes into account, and show the logic & disagreements. Very enlightening! I wish electrician videos followed this format.
I’ve seen the nails in drip edge rust out and fail because ice and water shield was placed under it. It’s a vapour barrier that really does work and it lets vapour condensate and run down into eaves to protect the wood so if there’s nails through metal on top of the vapour barrier they will rot eventually.
In Manitoba we do drip edge first. For years guys installed shingles around here with no underlay at all! People didn't usually have problems for as long as the shingle lasted if they were installed properly.
Absolutely! I have torn off literally thousands of roofs with no ice and water shield whatsoever 25, even up to 40 years old and never had a single issue. depends on the house, insulation, where you live, how much sun your roof gets, you name it.
I'm in New Hampshire , I put 8" aluminum drip edge on first, then 6' feet of ice and water sheild.Then synthetic underlayment to ridge. Along rakes put drip edge on top. The problem with ice and water first is ice dam will back water up then under drip edge and down fascia
Architectural detailer here... we always do the sandwich method on our construction drawings. Membrane or felt overhanging the fascia, then drip edge, then peel and stick stripping membrane.
This is to Nate at the beginning of the video. The reason why the roof is bulging up is not because of the gutter guy. It is because you didn’t remove the gutters before installing a larger drip edge or gutter apron. The larger drip edge or gutter apron hits the gutter hangers and you end up with that bulge in the roof at the eave. You have to take off the gutters before larger drip edge goes on or install the same size drip edge.
The trick to a good roof is too always overlap layers. Drip edge, starter strip, first on the eve, then ice and water, so there’s no edges for ice dams to grab. The rakes are done the opposite way, ice and water first then drip edge, for protection of wind driven rain.
In Miami,Fl we have to put the anchor sheet (astm 30) first then the drip edge. If client chooses to have a SWB installed we install a 9” strip of SWB on top of the anchor sheet , then the drip edge then cover the rest of the roof using the SWB
Malarky recommends their peel and stick wrap around 1.5 to 2 inches onto the eves. Then use plastic button nails to further secure the undetlayment/wrap to the eve. Then you treat the metal drip with water vinegar mix, let dry, and adhere the drip edge with their sbs caulk. Drip edge then nailed on top. Note eve side of drip edge now covering button nails. Then drip edge gets additional peel and stick on top of the drip edge, about 6 inches to cover the nails. I'm not a roofer, but in the market for a new roof. When I interview roofers this topic is the one I quiz them on, as it tells me how they think. Thanks everybody!
Some people might say this is overkill but if you want the best way of doing it, you first put an 8 inch strip of ice and water that goes onto the facia board by proximately 1 inch then you put your drip edge on and then you install a regular ice and water on top so the drip edge gets sandwiched in between and this is absolutely the best way
Great conversation dilema Dimitri ,I've been roofing in Northeast Ohio snow belt for over 50 years and the last 2 interviews were great. If any contractor lives in areas of moderate to heavy snow and prolonged cold spells then they should adhere to the IWS 3" down over gutter board then drip edge then 6" strip covering drip edge. Then you should cover all IWS with underlayment so the shingles won't stick to the IWS. As a contractor I never wanted to come back to redo as one bad job will chase you down the road. Probably the most important thing is making sure that the roof has adequate soffit venting and ridge venting. Do I think that every home needs IWS 🤔 No. But if you have a house with multiple dormers,valleys, and no overhangs then you better make sure you have it.
When recovering a comp roof I never use felt… unless the granules create a problem & even then we usually just blow them off… Over edge metal on eves under on rake’s
Drip across the eves, then underlayment, then drip on rake edges is technically the correct way. Trivial on if the rakes are that important but always put the eve drip on before underlayment.
I’m in NH and my favorite thing to find is 3 feet of ice and water with the drip edge weather it’s over or under. Code here in NH is 3 feet past the interior wall meaning a full 3 feet past the eve and thickness of the wall. We install 6 feet over the drip edge at the eve.
Oh hey that's a great point, I made a response (before reading the comments) but I forgot to cover that fact. Yes, you're 100% correct. The heat loss from inside a building, no matter how well insulated, results in the formation of ice on the edge of the roof, creating the potential for leakage under the shingles. That's a fantastic thing to point out!
We are in Tennessee and there is no code about ice and water on the eaves. We install one row of ice and water on the eaves to prevent the gutters from backing up, if they get clogged. I have seen that happen more than once down here. And this winter is the first time I have ever seen an ice dam in Tennessee. We had tremendous rain, and then it got extremely cold quickly. I had a customer that had his gutter draining into the ground, and it froze, and it backed up and froze 50 feet of gutter 6 inches deep. We put the drip edge on top of the ice and water shield. In cases where we do not use ice and water shield, we put the synthetic felt over the top of the drip edge. I think that is counterproductive.
Drip edge goes on top at the rakes and underneath at the eaves. It’s because if wind driven rain gets blown in through the rake it will only come into contact with the underlayment and not the substrate. I answered this before I watched the video. We will see how do lol I guess I’ll add my two cents on i ice & water sense this is what the video is about. Ice and water should definitely go on top of the drip edge.
The ice guard on top of the drip edge causes a lip for water to travel on, rather than shed over. Now any water that escapes onto the starter shingle and through a bond line; will follow the lip you’ve created until it finds a hole. Which it will, especially after ice has its way with it.
CANADA does have code. Also we have 1 of the largest roofing schools in north America. Its a 3 year apprenticeship program. Canadian red seal certification. There is only 1 right awnser to your question. Following city codes might pass inspections.. but climate does change and freak storms do occer. The awnser is a strip of Ice and water needs to be on first as metal sweats then install roof with full ice and water. Now you are water tight! Doing it this way will also allow you more freedom of getting started on other jobs until a shingler can come do the work. -Advanced Roofing Contractors.
IMO the Ice and Water barrier should go first so the drip nails are sealed by the ice and water. Drip should also be held off facia by 3/8” so water gets directed properly into gutter or away from facia board.
10:41 I think you got it backward. He said the manufacturers agree with the code....10:23 "they agree it should be on top of the drip edge..." Surprisingly interesting video.
Drip edge in the front area commun sense. And hips over the paper is a code here in california. I had inspectors lift the shingles on the hips to se how is install. But when you doble paper we used it on top of the ice water shield and paper over. In the valleys we used under and paper over.
id do both. also might want to wrap over the finished fascia a bit so it doesn’t get behind that with ice dams or wind driven rain. Im assuming the drip edge would cover the fascia overlap.
Metal should be sandwich between two layers of ice and water....metal condensates and if it's in contact with wood then that wood will always be moist causing delamination and eventually premature rot...to avoid this an 8" strip is installed at the eave edge for seperation then metal starter then first row ice and water
Because water can enter from both sides (up and down), the "sandwich" method would be the only correct answer. Everybody in the video can be correct for their side - you should shingle the parts, or you should protect the wood from below - but the true answer is that you should do both. The double-sided butyl tape product seems to make sense, and that sort of thing is becoming more common as prices come down. Modern technology and practices really do give a better result that lasts longer! Great idea for a video!
I install like a window. Drip edge on the eave, then ice and water shield, then the rake edges. If it's a shed style roof, the last drip edge goes at the top/peak
I live in Wisconsin and just had my roof replaced. The old roof was installed in 1991. No ice and water shield just old tar paper. No rot at all. I’m not sure what the roofer did but I’m sure it probably is better the old.
Intake Airflow at the gutter eaves along with sufficient attic insulation can keep any Ice Buildup to a minimum. That's likely why your roof deck did not rot
Northern states ice and water first if you have gutters to prevent ice dam water backup. Southern states you can put the drip edge on first where there is little chance of backup. You can also use peel and stick starter strip over dripedge .
I suppose I say it depends on the situation on the home. Drip edge’s main purpose is to physically finish the connection between the edge of the plywood with the facia. The drip edge reinforces and supports the bottom edge of the shingles. The drip edge allows for the shingles and leading edge to go past the facia to allow water to drip off. Water has a surface tension property and the shape of the bottom of the drip edge keeps both wind driven rain and dripping water from going back up. I would put Ice/water membrane first so the plywood is protected from ice dams. I have 3’ overhangs and the membrane should extend up past until the exterior wall. I would need at least two rows. Ice dams are a symptom of warm air escape from the attic. I am not sure I would tape the top edge of drip edge because of the ever fails you could be trapping water and not letting it escape.
Only issue I see with ice and water shield over ice and water shield is that the gases wouldn’t escape properly between that layers. Get weird looking bubbles like on modified bit. Experienced this is sandwiching.
First of all a barrier straight to the wood must go first, weather it be felt paper, synthetic or self adhered and then the drip edge. Once upon a time that was the end of this detail but we all know times have changed and so do processes. To continue with a watertight solution follow the proceeding installation with a solid sealed membrane on top of the drip edge. Depending on your location you will need to seal the top of the drip edge accordingly. When we seal the top of our drip edge it will always keep water from getting under it. Now you have it!
No times haven't changed you just got taught the wrong way and never had to go back and fix the damage caused by your own mistakes. OR you live in an area where it doesn't snow. Either way, cheers!
Wow Mark really I was taught wrong 47 years ago? my mistakes? we rarely have a call back and I can’t recall when we had one at the edge. Yes times have actually changed there was no such a thing as a peel and stick when I started. Much of my guidelines come from successful technics from books in the 1940s that still play true today. But you are right about one thing there is no snow in Florida which is where I’ve been running my roofing company for 43 years we just have a lot of rainwater to keep out. Chow.
In florida what i do is put a strips 6 inch first under dripe edge if its for tile. But is for shingles i use XR ce, we stick on the deck and the drip edge befrore the shingle we aply bull cement roof over the drip egde.
You got it wrong what Hamstra said the manufacturers told him. He says the code AND the manufacturers all say that the ice and water shield should be ON TOP of the drip edge. I think that is right.
Read the instructions on the box. It laterally says on the sheet in the box and on the box how to install. Water condenses on metal with temp and pressure changes. If metal is in direct contact with wood this cycle will soak the wood daily. So underlayment, then metal.
I really didn't realize this was even a question. The point is to make sure water is kept from contacting the wood decking and facia. The only way to prevent this is for the ice & water shield to lay over the drip edge. If you place the drip edge over the ice & water shield, any water running down the surface of the water shield can easily slip underneath the leading edge of the drip edge which then exposes the deck edge and facia to water.
The purpose of the IWS and valley flashing is to waterproof in the event the water shed system is overwhelmed, or defeated temporarily. The waterproofing goes directly on the wood, then the water shed system with drip edge, then 30lb felt or roofing under layment, starter course shingle, then shingles. The drip edge is only nailed every 12 to 16 inches, which will gap in a strong wind, even if you dap it down. It will also cause condensation underneath the drip edge. If your IWS is over the drip edge, it can peel back, stretch, and warp, letting moist air in. When you get an ice dam, you essentially have a partial flat roof situation, and you need the impregnable sytem for that duration under the affected area. The drip edge isn't doing much because the water is going off the rake because of the ice dam.
Clarification - Writing, like roofing, when you're tired can be hazardous. I meant to write that the metal wants to expand and contract with changing temperatures and ripples when it is held down by the sticky ice and water membrane.
I understand the value of IWS under from all these contractors experience, but what is the big benefit of over besides the words “it’s code”? If OC says over, maybe the only reason is they just want to comply with “it’s code”. Have people seen drip edge popping up from ice expansion when the IWS is under? Also, I picked up on an important comment from here where a writer says they put the synthetic felt over the double IWS/drip edge sandwich to keep the shingles from getting glued to the sandwich and thereby cause problems with different expansion rates and future re-roof nightmares.
Ice and water goes over facia an behind gutter , then drip to prevent ice backing up under plywood an drip. Although most inspectors will pass ice guard ontop of drip, it's fast easy way if no ice issue. Proper soffit ventilation an ridge vent an enough insulation an then no ice. Proper way is ice an water first an installed rolled over bottom roof edge onto facia board or metal an tucked behind gutter. Then even in worst ice situation... the ice cant get in
Ice and water then drip, then starter strip, then shingles. I've working in Cali and upstate ny. We do it like that for redundancy. That's the trick to roofing really. The ice and water sticks directly to the plywood. The drip goes over the ice and water (helping to seal the nails used in the metal) The starter sticks to the drip, the shingle sticks to the starter. It's bullet proof. If water gets under the shingle it hits the starter strip. If it gets under the starter, it hits the drip. If it somehow gets by all that or backs up from snow and ice, it hits the ice and water barrier. Edge metal almost always gets sandwiched. Even in commercial roofing using single ply membranes. There may be more than 1 way to do this, but 9 out of 10 good roofers prefer my way 😊
You are correct about edge metal gets sandwiched but starter strip doesn’t seal to ice and water adequately. You need a strip of ice and water that wraps over the edge, then drip, then the full sheet of ice and water.
Do both to satisfy everybody. Measure out from edge how much ice sheild you need to cover fascia and especially if you are wrapping the facia to cover down and under and back up a half inch. Then drip edge . Then run full width on top of drip edge and up roof. ALl problems solved.
Well what I do is remove Gutter hangers if it's a existing roof clean the Gutter install Gutter flashing apron etc I know they call it diferente in some states or companies make sure the Gutter flashing overlaps at least a inch then I nail the hangers over the flashing place ice and water shield over the flashing and work my way up the reason being I don't place the ice under and the flashing ontop is because with rain or snow sitting on the roof if water some how gets under the shingles and starter it still has to fal on ice and water then on flashing and in to the Gutter and if it were the other way around the flashing would prevent water flow with could cause water to get stopped by the flashing causing the nails on the flashing to rot out and then leave holes on the ice and water and in the decking I work in Chicago area I've seen the flashing onto but asleep that method causes the fascia border to rotten out just yesterday my crew and I did the roof on a garage gable to gable garage drip edge on top of ice shield nails on the drip edge rotten out causing leaks on roof decking and fascia both sides of t he garage so we had to change them just thinking about it its better to not have holes on the ice and water shield that way its more water tight that nailing the drip edge more holes more leaks that's my saying just like shingles more nails more chances of leaks 5 nails per shingle is enough for any asphalt shingle
My take on the Drip edge ,Ice Guard first because if you get water Damning it's less likely for the water to drop behind the fachia board . Retired in my 70s from Cleveland Ohio
I'm surprised that IKO "Edge Seal" starter roll is not in the conversation. We prefer to install ice/water covering fascia first. Then install drip (add a fingers width gap behind drip on shallow pitch). Then Edge Seal on rakes and eve's. This method provides an extremely tight bond between the shingles and the drip. Well worth the added time and $!
Ice and water first then drip edge It’s code in south Florida. If you put drip first and put ice and water over it the tar has no bite on the drip.and we don’t nail starter on we only tar it to the drip. For tile roofs we put tar paper first then drip then underlayment over drip.
Use cement under dripedge first, then adhere underlayment to the dripedge with more roof cement. Finally, do this to the shingle starter course The old master roofer taught me this, in hurricane country years ago.
I am installing flat roof flashing under shingles and over corrugated patio roof. Seems most city codes require roof flashing to be 26 Gauge (0.019 inch). But the flashing rolls sold at Home Depot are thinner. How do I resolve this?
I'm in Chester County Pennsylvania just west of Philadelphia... Climate zone 4, on the border of climate zone 5... I have only seen an ice damn form in a gutter that filled the gutter and backed up under the shingles once in my 12 years of for-profit work and my 8 years of non-profit work before that in the home repair industry.... In the one case were it occurred, the gutter had already been compromised, was low in the center so it was not draining properly and had the gutter maintenance been taken care of in a timely seasonal manner, the problem the customer experienced with ice filling the gutter would not have occurred. What I have seen, more times than I can count, is something goes wrong with the shingle installation or a tree branch damage or something, or a nail works its way loose and pops through the shingle after 15 or 20 years and water gets down around that nail and starts making its way through the space between the underside of the shingles and the top of the underlayment. I've also seen where the roofing crew has neglected to clip the shingle corners in a valley to prevent water from running horizontally across the top edge of a shingle and this is also allowed water to get down to the underlayment... And in both those cases, if the underlayment and ice and water shield is on top of the drip edge at the bottom edge of the roof, the water will exit safely into the gutter. If that ice and water shield is underneath of the drip edge, the drip edge can begin to act as a dam and allow the water to run horizontally and look for a hole or away into the roof system. Based on my experience of repairing hundreds of roof system failures, I am far more concerned about water getting into the underlayment system from above and running down between the shingles in the underlayment then I ever am about water coming up from the gutter from the bottom... And I have no qualms with putting the side drip edge on after the ice and water shield is down... And it makes more sense to me in a sequence of construction... I installed the bottom drip edge, I install all of the ice and water shield, and then we can go back and install the ice and water shield over the rakes. To some extent, I do believe that this discussion is climate zone specific. For example, we only experience horizontal rain two or three times a year whereas other regions of the country experience this far more frequently. I'm becoming a big fan of Matt Reisinger's Monopoly house framing where he provides continuous peel and stick membrane from the walls up onto the roof, and then frames out the soffits after the waterproofing is installed.... But I replace existing roofs far more frequently than I'm building a new house from scratch so my vote is drip edge goes on first at the bottom and ice and water shield is installed on top.
Honestly it doesn't matter if water is getting under yours shingles in trouble.i put ice first then dip then before I shingle I put some bull across the drip to cover the nails in Florida you have to do they can see that you put a nail every 4 inches.but I roofed Henry Fischer homes with nothing but felt no ice guard no drip and now I'm reroofing these same houses and there is almost no damaged wood
8 years ago when I got my roof done used tar paper and back then that was good enough now 8 years later yes its probably better but is it really needed.
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Dmitry, we do both. We prefer Grace Ice and Water Shield. Our second choice is Owens Corning Weather lock Mat Ice and Water Barrier. We rip the 36 inch roll in half to create to 18 inch strips then we put the ice and water shield down on the deck and roll it over the deck shearing and onto the facia about 1.5 to 2 inches. We then do the same to the rakes. Next we install the drip edge all around. Then we install a full layer (36 inches) over the top of the drip edge and the underlying ice and water shield. We have never had any issues with inspectors and we have never had any issues with the deck, rafters or trusses. Thanks for all of your excellent videos. Best regards to all. Blessings...
How are you cutting a roll in half? What's an easy method??
@@tchornomud We simply roll it out, measure, snap a line and cut with a razor knife. Tip, we use a 10 foot piece of 1/4 inch by 4 inch steel flat bar. The weight makes it real easy to hold and cut. We have cut the roll in half with a band saw but that was a mess. We cut a lot of thin strips of Grace ice and water shield and use it like heavy duty tape for a vast variety of other uses as well.
@danielstover3029 build yourself a 2x4 box, set the roll inside put your razor down into the wood.. pull the roll through.. way way easier
@@danielstover3029also love and agree.. just sandwich the ice n water!
This is obviously the best way. I'm not a roofer, but the second he posed the question, I paused the video and thought how I would do it before watching and your method is exactly what I came up with
First I cut the 36" roll in half to 18". Then I wrap the ice & water down the vertical face of the fascia. The remainder goes up the roof. Drip edge next. Then Standard 36" roll of ice & water.
I've replaced too many rafter tails and fascias doing it any other way. I've even began using green treated lumber for the fascia board. This method will never rot.
I wish more roofers cared this much about quality and longevity.
right on !
@@JohnWayne-cb1tv i wish more cared about not having leaks that then grow mold and can destroy a persons health Its not just about longevity
I agree with your drip edge and ice shelf method.
But no pressure treat and aluminum they don’t love each other.
That's good . and the best way to do it . And if possible run your aluminum fashia under the Ice Guard , and install new gutters.
When ice and water first became available in our area, we put it over the drip edge - thinking, over, over, over was the best way to keep water running down the roof and away from the house. However, we quickly discovered that when the ice and water, being an asphalt product, expanded and contracted with changing temperatures, it rippled the metal drip edge and therefore also rippled the the shingles that were on top of it. After that we started putting the drip edge over the ice and water but maintained the over, over principal by starting our synthetic roof paper at the eaves (over the ice and water.) We eliminated teh rippling and but kept the sealing advantage of the ice and water. This also eliminated the problem we've had with removing old shingles from ice and water that was put down 20-25 years ago. It can't be down in some cases. We've had to tear up sheathing on some roofs in order to remove the lumpy remains of old shingles that are permanently stuck to the ice and water. The manufacturers didn't tell us about that 25 years ago when they said ice and water was the way to go.
The over over principle 😅 alright Einstein
I'm have the biggest tip of all. BE AT HOME WHEN THEY DO THE ROOF AND WATCH THEM. I wasn't, and even though I selected the ice and water shield and saw the roll before I got to work, they were not installed, and I didn't notice till a month later.
Actually, I live in Will county Illinois and code actually allows two approaches, you can install ice and water over your gutter apron or under, however if under you either need to strip in an additional ice and water over top or alternatively, you can have your synthetic overlap all the ice and water and over your gutter apron
Use pvc trim for your facia board. Pvc trim is impervious to water. Make sure your pvc trim hangs below the wood that it is fastened too by a couple inches. Having the pvc hang below the wood that it is fastened too will make sure water cannot wick back up and onto the wood. Next lay your ice and water shield down and let it hang over the edge by a few inches so that you can fold it down onto the pvc trim and create a water tight bond. Drip edge goes on top of that, then starter shingles. Im not a roofer, but i have done a few roofs on my rentals in washington state. In my opinion this method that i came up with is the best way to make sure water cannot physically penetrate the structure in any way.
I live in upstate New York near the Canadian border. We get ice build up that is unimaginable to most people. Our codes call for it over the drip edge and also two rows of ice and water. I sometimes use three rows and start to dry in with a half lap over the third row on flatter roofs. We tend to over kill everything up here. If I can find a way to overlap something to make sure the water is diverted, we always take the extra time to do it. We also don't use gutters up here. Anyone that has gutters takes them down before winter so the apron is redundant for us. If we left gutters on in the winter they'd just be ripped off by falling ice. Even on the bottom it's drip edge first and then the ice and water.
What's the best way to remove a gutter system for winter? Seems like there should be click or slide-in options.
@@devonblaine I'm in Canada, north of New York... everyone has eavestrough (gutters) and keeps them on all year. Sliding ice usually flies right over... mostly!
Here's a thought: Eves Edge
Put a 1st layer of Ice/Water barrier down, so enough of it goes down the facia board to be hidden edge behind a gutter.
Then 2nd, install drip edge/gutter apron.
Then 3rd, install another layer of Ice/water Barrier over the drip edge - with lowest edge of the Ice/Water barrier up to the horizontal edge, before vertical plane of the drip-edge/gutter apron. And the 2ndIce/water barrier will be off-set above the first layer by the distancethe 1st layer was installeddown the fascia board - maybe 4-6 inches?.
Then you have Ice/water barrier protecting facsia boards, and covering drip-edge/gutter apron nails too, with one layer aboove, and one below the drip edge/gutter apron!
Then your ready to install another layer up-roof from the 1st two down low.
Cost a little more, but sleep better without images of water leaking at the drip edge/gutter apron, going through your head on Christmas Eve!
And.no matter what code you have - this method meets both under and over the drip-edge/gutter apron situation, one way or the other, done!
It's just a thought - take a survey!
1' strips of Ice Guard onto roof deck and wrapped to fascia. Install DRIP. Then go ahead with your full roll of Ice Guard over the DRIP to cover nail penetrations. It's called the Double Wrap method and it will not fail
Good to know!
In florida we use bull over the drip edge but the ice and water goes under the dripbedges metal
@@edymolina2801 that's a good method as well. Can get a bit messy if the installer is not good with a trowel! ...but you have hurricanes (extreme wind) to worry about lifting up your roof in Florida so it makes sense. Actually a lot of the old cedar shake roofs that I've torn off had the starter course laid into mastic that same way...from before they had Ice guard Membranes
As a former Philadelphia area contractor, if new capping was being installed I would cut a 36" or 48" roll into 12" rolls, down fascia and onto roof deck, install drip edge, then install full roll over the drip edge. That way it's local code compliant and I could guarantee to my customers that they will NEVER have an issue. But MUST use a high quality product that sticks to itself permanently. My favorite is sharkskin ultra sa, super aggressive adhesive, once it's pressed on its impossible to separate. It's a bit pricy, but worth every penny. It makes a complete seal so no chance of ice creeping in. In Florida were I live now, can be over or under as per installers preference, but drip edge must have a nail every 4" and 4" min roofing cement around all edges of the roof for hurricanes. For this I prefer on top because the cement bonds to the metal and won't tear off with the underlayment like a lot did during Hurricane Ian that just rolled through my neighborhood.
Yes like this depending on details, basically 1st stip 1 inch above the drip on deck so full sheet of self adhered material has sandwiched the drip. 1st layer seal nails in drip 2nd covers.
Especially great in metal roofing applications.
How are you cutting a roll in half? What's an easy method??
Yep. I did mine the exact same way. Best of both worlds. You protect the plywood decking at the eave edge with the smaller first layer.
@@tchornomud A utility knife with a new blade. A long straight edge. You do not have to be perfect since you have the factory edge which is straight.
If its steeper than 10/12, it doesnt really matter unless you're that bad of a roofer. The lower slope the roof, the more you have to protect it. The steeper it is the faster water sheds. I'm a steep roof specialist and I've made repairs at the eave of steep roofs because someone placed drip too tightly on the fascia so it sat on top, not over the fascia creating a "pooling" area. So if you're Roofing a lower slope, nothing wrong with an extra layer of protection under the drip, and if you're on a steep beauty, rope up and roof right
It all depends on what climate you live in really to here in Canada you're you don't want to go above and beyond
Another big misconception is underlayments to stop leaks that's secondary if water gets under the shingles you screwed up somewhere
It's a vapor barrier here in Canada for the most part that protects the decking ventilation is very important as well you don't want to mix your vents either having a whirlybird and box vents is no good you can create cross ventilation happening
Another thing I see a lot here in Canada is underlayment on full roof is an upsell I laughed my ass off at that one 😂
I am a home-improvement contractor and I’ve seen hundreds of poorly installed roof with subsequent rot of the facia board one by two wood drip edge and soffit. It always boils down to inadequate drip edge flashing. Quite often the roofers down here cut the underlayment, whether tar paper or synthetic, too short and then try to cap it with drip edge it always leaks. I always tell my roofers that I want a custom drip edge with at least 4 inches of material that caps the two by facia board and goes over the roof decking. Then I like the underlayment on top of that it can always be caulked down on top of the flashing.we never have any call backs for rotted Wood on our roof with that method. We also use storm and ice shield on low pitched roofs.
To further input for Will County IL and other areas in IL…. You can install the ice and water shield first (as it should be) then the drip edge and then any kind of underlayment (I&W or synthetic) over the drip edge and the remainder of the roof. That is per Will County and Bolingbrook IL. So do your own cost analyst to see what cost you more or less.
Totally agree! However, in unincorporated will county, that method is not allowed with synthetic felt over the drip edge OR anything over ice snd water if its granular.
@@hamstraroofing interesting as I was told by two different inspectors that you can. But it’s not in black and white 🤷♂️
I recognize your name sir. I have a briefing with one of your Reps tomorrow. 55yrs in the game is what caught my attention.
When I did my roof, I had the roofers cut one roll of ice and water barrier in half and apply that first, hanging 3 inches down the facia. Drip edge was then installed. Last, ice and water barrier was applied on top of the drip edge and covered the entire roof. Otherwise known as the "Hybrid Method".
Absolutely agree! The only reason this is not standard procedure is that time is money and that's all they care about.
How are you cutting a roll in half? What's an easy method??
I inspected a new roof yesterday on a mobile home with no underlayment and some messed up flashing
We just got a biblical amount of rain in California the last month and no water leaks for now but please put underlayment on your roof 👍🏻
I remember awhile back stripping a roof that had no underlayment ....crazy !
Down here in Florida we do underlayment first, then drip so when we get inspected they can see our nailing pattern on the drip.
On the flip side, we like to do underlayment on top of the drip when transitioning to an aluminum flat roof etc.
Floriduhh has inspections?
@@OffendingTheOffendablemore then any other state.
I saw one roofer's video who pointed this out. Eves edge - For cold climates, he likes to remove the gutters (or there is post roof installed - preplanned gutter installation) and he puts the water/Ice barrier all the way over down the fascia board, to the point that it will be hidden behind the gutter when installed/reinstalled; then put/nail the drip edge/gutter apron on. Then no matter how bad the water becomes and ice dam in the gutter, etc - no way it can get under the ice/water barrier. And nailing thru the ice/water barrier to attach the drip edge/gutter apron, it will seal the holes. And, you can always give the nail's exposed heads which are holding the dripedge/gutter apron a shot of tar caulk too!
Smart but those tear offs must be crazy, replacing fascia around all the eaves after trying to tear it off.
In So Cal, we aren't going to have any ice dams. It almost never gets below freezing. It is a no-brainer to put the drip edge down first. Then the underlayment
Thank you. I was hoping for input from a warmer climate. Tahoe is unique to most of Cali.
I'm in Michigan. Code is bottom drip on under ice and water and side drip over underlayment. They also prefer ice and water half strips up rake edges. We do over kill and do half strips under drip edge hanging over facia and then come in with our full rows of ice. Always 24" past interior wall line
If there is no gutter I put it on top of the metal. If there is a gutter it goes under the metal. I’m sure everyone has their way, but that is the only way I will install it.
If you find shingle stuck down to ice & water you can take a propane weed burner and warm them up a bit or if it is hot and direct sun will soften them so you can lift them off. I use either 5# or 11# propane cylinders on the roof. Use a heavy duty bent scraper to lift the end up a bit and grab them with gloves on. If you rip off the bottom portion of the shingle the sun/heat applied works quicker and won't turn them into mush that pulls apart. If you are lucky catch the North or shades sides early in the morning when it's cool and you can sometimes pop them off fairly easy. Just add an extra man hour day to the price. Sure beats tearing off the plywood deck.
PEOPLE JUST NEED TO USE BETTER ICE&WATER "GRACE SELECT" OR SOMETHING SIMULAR
Exactly correct my man. I sometimes use a heat gun, just don't over do it!
Great presentation! As a prospective owner who plans to have a new house built in Upstate New York, I found this IWS or DE first dilemma very interesting. Ice dams and leaking roofs are common up here. I would opt to pay for more product to have the "sandwich" application on my house.
Standing Seam metal roof...
Both. Wrap the deck to facia board with ice gaurd. Install the drip edge and shingle a layer of ice guard over the top of the drip edge.
I've had to educate SO many roofers on this topic! I've met many roofers who get this wrong.
On the eaves, the drip edge is to be installed UNDER the underlayment/IWS.
On the rakes, the drip edge goes ON TOP of the underlayment.
And staples should never be used!
Ive used shark skin SA and FT synthetics SA butyl underlayment. Both are superior products i will utilize in the future. Easy to work with and hi temp rated, lays flat. Shark skin offers an 8" roll perfect for sealing your drip/apron above to the SA product below.
From Ohio and being northeast bad winter s the way we like to do it is ice guard first and even wrap down facia plate if applicable. Then drip edge
We're following the Fortified standard with an IKO CodePlus system. In Dallas, so we don't require IWS at the eave. So, combining CodePlus with Fortified, we do IKO Gold Seam tape first--2 inches on the deck, cover the gap and go down the fascia. We're also taping all the seams in the decking with the Gold Seam tape. Next, we install our synthetic underlayment. Then we install drip edge we fabricate from 24 or 26 gauge metal - 2 inches on the deck and 2 inches down the fascia, nailed every 12" in a staggered pattern. Then we use IKO's double sided self-adhesive starter before installing our first course of shingles. That edge is totally sealed.
Our company in Olympia Washington area does 3 inches of the ice n water over the fascia and metal over the ice n water. Then underlayment over the metal. We have lots trees that fill the gutters up with debris and water then splashes up under the metal and damages the edge of the decking. If we do not do it, it will rot the face edge of the decking. The gutter then goes over the 3 inches of ice nwater on the fascia. If we do not remove the gutters we tell the customer it will not work to ice n water over the gutter. If the edge of the decking is not protected then it will wick up every time. We do not have ice wicking problems here like they do in other colder climates. Once in a while it will wick up the valleys where we always do ice n water but very rare.
I can understand why there's a 50/50 poll here. The different regions in the US have different requirements. In Illinois, Drip edge (ODE) is only allowed to be used at the Rakes, and Gutter apron is used at the eaves. So Ice and Water shield is required to be on top of the gutter apron at the Eave and under the drip edge at the rake. On new construction the Ice and water is applied and draped over the facia board 2"-3" at the eave, with the Gutter apron on top of the ice and water shield.
I wish you’d include a southern heat/hurricane winds component. We have various codes over the south, the most stringent being in south Florida but recent tornados have taken their toll and other southern states have started making changes. It would be nice if contractors would communicate the need to homeowners. What we need to be thinking about before we reroof and potentially tie down our roofs would be helpful.
I do flat roofs and we put ice n water shield fist then the drip edge then we roof over that ,so this the same system your talking about, now if I put the drip fist, it can back up in the drip edge
I was taught snow ice shield wrapped down onto facia, drip edge 2nd layer snow ice shield, more depending upon slope, on our mobile home snow ice shield from eaves to ridge, 2:12
One must hand the roof, not air nail. Air knocks holes in the Shingles. Especially when they're cold/ Brittle.
I should teach roofing, 67 years experience, plus three generations before me, started in 1924. I have roofed from coast to coast. Put on some that will last 300 years.
My mother was a roofer and hand nailed 15 squares a day.
If the pneumatic nailer is knocking holes in the shingles, then it needs to be adjusted. Any nailer of any kind worth having has a depth adjustment.
in days of old, we did it both ways. It depended on the roofing material, and the approved method for their material. There was an inspection. We did shingles, and white rubber, and black rubber.
Water runs down hill… think about it like duck feathers…. Drip edge…ice and water to code… synthetic… shingles… vent and cap… if water does ever enter the system for whatever reason the water will not damage the deck, fascia, soffit, and possibly gutter system. The only possible reason to put ice and water first would be for wind protection and if you use starter ( which you should). Always great content! Thanks for your contributions.
Duck feathers do not form ice dams. What does water do when it meets a dam?
I live in northern California and it might surprise you but there are roofers who fail to even use a drip edge, yes we do have building codes but quality of inspector's attention to details like this depends on the area. Personally I have pondered this very question and there are good arguments for doing it both ways, the local climate weather condition might be the final rule on how to treat the drip edge.
I have seen condensation marks EVERY SINGLE TIME that I have taken drip edge off that was under the weather guard. I can support this method, ONLY if there is window tape, or ice guard strips under the drip. We so it under the drip, but extending at least 1/2” over the fascia, so anything that gets under will be sealed and drip in gutter. Finger width gap behind drip. On low slopes I have taped, and installed over drip edge on lower slopes that we Ice guarded.
So, if I understand... first, IW strip on the roof plywood, but curled over and pressed against the fascia. Then gutter. Then drip edge, but with a finger-width space between it and the gutter. Then IW again over the drip edge. Do I have it?
@@livenhfree
You got it!! If you do not live in major ice dam areas, putting it down over the fascia is not necessary.
@@renurenovationsllc7780 Thank you! I live in So. NH. I'm taking a bold leap and trying my hand at repairing some fascia rot on an inside corner of two roofs. I know the fascia needs to be replaced, and I have no concerns about ripping off the gutter, but the trick I think is going to figure out where the moisture is coming from (a hose test directly in the gutter comes out clean), as well as how to retrofit new IW sheild underneath the shingles where it's needed. More video research to do! Thanks again.
WRB peel and stick directly on the roof deck if your not using zip sheathing then drip edge then Ice n water our code req 3ft on rake and 6ft on gutter i actually do entire roof with ice and water now you have 2 layers of protection .
Fantastic video, thank you. You take a poll & also take local codes into account, and show the logic & disagreements. Very enlightening! I wish electrician videos followed this format.
I’ve seen the nails in drip edge rust out and fail because ice and water shield was placed under it. It’s a vapour barrier that really does work and it lets vapour condensate and run down into eaves to protect the wood so if there’s nails through metal on top of the vapour barrier they will rot eventually.
In Manitoba we do drip edge first. For years guys installed shingles around here with no underlay at all! People didn't usually have problems for as long as the shingle lasted if they were installed properly.
Absolutely! I have torn off literally thousands of roofs with no ice and water shield whatsoever 25, even up to 40 years old and never had a single issue. depends on the house, insulation, where you live, how much sun your roof gets, you name it.
I'm in New Hampshire , I put 8" aluminum drip edge on first, then 6' feet of ice and water sheild.Then synthetic underlayment to ridge. Along rakes put drip edge on top. The problem with ice and water first is ice dam will back water up then under drip edge and down fascia
Architectural detailer here... we always do the sandwich method on our construction drawings. Membrane or felt overhanging the fascia, then drip edge, then peel and stick stripping membrane.
Ice shield (and over fascia some), then drip edge, then zip tape over the drip edge seam.
This is to Nate at the beginning of the video. The reason why the roof is bulging up is not because of the gutter guy. It is because you didn’t remove the gutters before installing a larger drip edge or gutter apron. The larger drip edge or gutter apron hits the gutter hangers and you end up with that bulge in the roof at the eave.
You have to take off the gutters before larger drip edge goes on or install the same size drip edge.
The trick to a good roof is too always overlap layers. Drip edge, starter strip, first on the eve, then ice and water, so there’s no edges for ice dams to grab. The rakes are done the opposite way, ice and water first then drip edge, for protection of wind driven rain.
In Miami,Fl we have to put the anchor sheet (astm 30) first then the drip edge. If client chooses to have a SWB installed we install a 9” strip of SWB on top of the anchor sheet , then the drip edge then cover the rest of the roof using the SWB
Malarky recommends their peel and stick wrap around 1.5 to 2 inches onto the eves. Then use plastic button nails to further secure the undetlayment/wrap to the eve. Then you treat the metal drip with water vinegar mix, let dry, and adhere the drip edge with their sbs caulk. Drip edge then nailed on top. Note eve side of drip edge now covering button nails. Then drip edge gets additional peel and stick on top of the drip edge, about 6 inches to cover the nails. I'm not a roofer, but in the market for a new roof. When I interview roofers this topic is the one I quiz them on, as it tells me how they think. Thanks everybody!
Some people might say this is overkill but if you want the best way of doing it, you first put an 8 inch strip of ice and water that goes onto the facia board by proximately 1 inch then you put your drip edge on and then you install a regular ice and water on top so the drip edge gets sandwiched in between and this is absolutely the best way
Great conversation dilema Dimitri ,I've been roofing in Northeast Ohio snow belt for over 50 years and the last 2 interviews were great. If any contractor lives in areas of moderate to heavy snow and prolonged cold spells then they should adhere to the IWS 3" down over gutter board then drip edge then 6" strip covering drip edge. Then you should cover all IWS with underlayment so the shingles won't stick to the IWS. As a contractor I never wanted to come back to redo as one bad job will chase you down the road. Probably the most important thing is making sure that the roof has adequate soffit venting and ridge venting. Do I think that every home needs IWS 🤔 No. But if you have a house with multiple dormers,valleys, and no overhangs then you better make sure you have it.
When recovering a comp roof I never use felt… unless the granules create a problem & even then we usually just blow them off…
Over edge metal on eves under on rake’s
Drip across the eves, then underlayment, then drip on rake edges is technically the correct way. Trivial on if the rakes are that important but always put the eve drip on before underlayment.
I’m in NH and my favorite thing to find is 3 feet of ice and water with the drip edge weather it’s over or under. Code here in NH is 3 feet past the interior wall meaning a full 3 feet past the eve and thickness of the wall. We install 6 feet over the drip edge at the eve.
Oh hey that's a great point, I made a response (before reading the comments) but I forgot to cover that fact. Yes, you're 100% correct. The heat loss from inside a building, no matter how well insulated, results in the formation of ice on the edge of the roof, creating the potential for leakage under the shingles. That's a fantastic thing to point out!
We are in Tennessee and there is no code about ice and water on the eaves. We install one row of ice and water on the eaves to prevent the gutters from backing up, if they get clogged. I have seen that happen more than once down here. And this winter is the first time I have ever seen an ice dam in Tennessee. We had tremendous rain, and then it got extremely cold quickly. I had a customer that had his gutter draining into the ground, and it froze, and it backed up and froze 50 feet of gutter 6 inches deep. We put the drip edge on top of the ice and water shield. In cases where we do not use ice and water shield, we put the synthetic felt over the top of the drip edge. I think that is counterproductive.
Drip edge goes on top at the rakes and underneath at the eaves.
It’s because if wind driven rain gets blown in through the rake it will only come into contact with the underlayment and not the substrate.
I answered this before I watched the video. We will see how do lol
I guess I’ll add my two cents on i ice & water sense this is what the video is about. Ice and water should definitely go on top of the drip edge.
The ice guard on top of the drip edge causes a lip for water to travel on, rather than shed over. Now any water that escapes onto the starter shingle and through a bond line; will follow the lip you’ve created until it finds a hole. Which it will, especially after ice has its way with it.
CANADA does have code. Also we have 1 of the largest roofing schools in north America. Its a 3 year apprenticeship program. Canadian red seal certification.
There is only 1 right awnser to your question. Following city codes might pass inspections.. but climate does change and freak storms do occer.
The awnser is a strip of Ice and water needs to be on first as metal sweats then install roof with full ice and water.
Now you are water tight! Doing it this way will also allow you more freedom of getting started on other jobs until a shingler can come do the work.
-Advanced Roofing Contractors.
IMO the Ice and Water barrier should go first so the drip nails are sealed by the ice and water. Drip should also be held off facia by 3/8” so water gets directed properly into gutter or away from facia board.
10:41 I think you got it backward. He said the manufacturers agree with the code....10:23 "they agree it should be on top of the drip edge..."
Surprisingly interesting video.
If you're not worried about manufactures warranty you can do it however. Certain manufacturers require you to do it a certain way to remain valid
Drip edge in the front area commun sense. And hips over the paper is a code here in california. I had inspectors lift the shingles on the hips to se how is install. But when you doble paper we used it on top of the ice water shield and paper over. In the valleys we used under and paper over.
id do both. also might want to wrap over the finished fascia a bit so it doesn’t get behind that with ice dams or wind driven rain. Im assuming the drip edge would cover the fascia overlap.
Metal should be sandwich between two layers of ice and water....metal condensates and if it's in contact with wood then that wood will always be moist causing delamination and eventually premature rot...to avoid this an 8" strip is installed at the eave edge for seperation then metal starter then first row ice and water
Ice and water first. It covers the wood from frost damage. If you put drip edge first there is small strip where the wood isn’t covered.
I like ice and water shield first with about 1 inch overhang. This will provide protection from ice daming in the troughs.
Because water can enter from both sides (up and down), the "sandwich" method would be the only correct answer. Everybody in the video can be correct for their side - you should shingle the parts, or you should protect the wood from below - but the true answer is that you should do both. The double-sided butyl tape product seems to make sense, and that sort of thing is becoming more common as prices come down. Modern technology and practices really do give a better result that lasts longer!
Great idea for a video!
I install like a window. Drip edge on the eave, then ice and water shield, then the rake edges. If it's a shed style roof, the last drip edge goes at the top/peak
I live in Wisconsin and just had my roof replaced. The old roof was installed in 1991. No ice and water shield just old tar paper. No rot at all. I’m not sure what the roofer did but I’m sure it probably is better the old.
Intake Airflow at the gutter eaves along with sufficient attic insulation can keep any Ice Buildup to a minimum. That's likely why your roof deck did not rot
Northern states ice and water first if you have gutters to prevent ice dam water backup. Southern states you can put the drip edge on first where there is little chance of backup. You can also use peel and stick starter strip over dripedge .
I suppose I say it depends on the situation on the home. Drip edge’s main purpose is to physically finish the connection between the edge of the plywood with the facia. The drip edge reinforces and supports the bottom edge of the shingles. The drip edge allows for the shingles and leading edge to go past the facia to allow water to drip off. Water has a surface tension property and the shape of the bottom of the drip edge keeps both wind driven rain and dripping water from going back up. I would put Ice/water membrane first so the plywood is protected from ice dams. I have 3’ overhangs and the membrane should extend up past until the exterior wall. I would need at least two rows. Ice dams are a symptom of warm air escape from the attic. I am not sure I would tape the top edge of drip edge because of the ever fails you could be trapping water and not letting it escape.
Only issue I see with ice and water shield over ice and water shield is that the gases wouldn’t escape properly between that layers. Get weird looking bubbles like on modified bit. Experienced this is sandwiching.
First of all a barrier straight to the wood must go first, weather it be felt paper, synthetic or self adhered and then the drip edge. Once upon a time that was the end of this detail but we all know times have changed and so do processes. To continue with a watertight solution follow the proceeding installation with a solid sealed membrane on top of the drip edge. Depending on your location you will need to seal the top of the drip edge accordingly. When we seal the top of our drip edge it will always keep water from getting under it. Now you have it!
No times haven't changed you just got taught the wrong way and never had to go back and fix the damage caused by your own mistakes. OR you live in an area where it doesn't snow. Either way, cheers!
Wow Mark really I was taught wrong 47 years ago? my mistakes? we rarely have a call back and I can’t recall when we had one at the edge. Yes times have actually changed there was no such a thing as a peel and stick when I started. Much of my guidelines come from successful technics from books in the 1940s that still play true today. But you are right about one thing there is no snow in Florida which is where I’ve been running my roofing company for 43 years we just have a lot of rainwater to keep out. Chow.
In florida what i do is put a strips 6 inch first under dripe edge if its for tile. But is for shingles i use XR ce, we stick on the deck and the drip edge befrore the shingle we aply bull cement roof over the drip egde.
In Illinois the codes are crazy one town will require all sorts of things then a town a block away requires nothing
You got it wrong what Hamstra said the manufacturers told him. He says the code AND the manufacturers all say that the ice and water shield should be ON TOP of the drip edge. I think that is right.
Read the instructions on the box. It laterally says on the sheet in the box and on the box how to install. Water condenses on metal with temp and pressure changes. If metal is in direct contact with wood this cycle will soak the wood daily. So underlayment, then metal.
I do the drip edge on top on the peek (angled) part of the roof and underneath on the rest of the roof
I really didn't realize this was even a question. The point is to make sure water is kept from contacting the wood decking and facia. The only way to prevent this is for the ice & water shield to lay over the drip edge. If you place the drip edge over the ice & water shield, any water running down the surface of the water shield can easily slip underneath the leading edge of the drip edge which then exposes the deck edge and facia to water.
The purpose of the IWS and valley flashing is to waterproof in the event the water shed system is overwhelmed, or defeated temporarily. The waterproofing goes directly on the wood, then the water shed system with drip edge, then 30lb felt or roofing under layment, starter course shingle, then shingles. The drip edge is only nailed every 12 to 16 inches, which will gap in a strong wind, even if you dap it down. It will also cause condensation underneath the drip edge. If your IWS is over the drip edge, it can peel back, stretch, and warp, letting moist air in. When you get an ice dam, you essentially have a partial flat roof situation, and you need the impregnable sytem for that duration under the affected area. The drip edge isn't doing much because the water is going off the rake because of the ice dam.
For us , ice and water first then drip edge, the seaming tape. But we do only metal
Clarification - Writing, like roofing, when you're tired can be hazardous. I meant to write that the metal wants to expand and contract with changing temperatures and ripples when it is held down by the sticky ice and water membrane.
I understand the value of IWS under from all these contractors experience, but what is the big benefit of over besides the words “it’s code”? If OC says over, maybe the only reason is they just want to comply with “it’s code”. Have people seen drip edge popping up from ice expansion when the IWS is under? Also, I picked up on an important comment from here where a writer says they put the synthetic felt over the double IWS/drip edge sandwich to keep the shingles from getting glued to the sandwich and thereby cause problems with different expansion rates and future re-roof nightmares.
Ice and water goes over facia an behind gutter , then drip to prevent ice backing up under plywood an drip. Although most inspectors will pass ice guard ontop of drip, it's fast easy way if no ice issue. Proper soffit ventilation an ridge vent an enough insulation an then no ice. Proper way is ice an water first an installed rolled over bottom roof edge onto facia board or metal an tucked behind gutter. Then even in worst ice situation... the ice cant get in
Ice and water then drip, then starter strip, then shingles. I've working in Cali and upstate ny. We do it like that for redundancy. That's the trick to roofing really. The ice and water sticks directly to the plywood. The drip goes over the ice and water (helping to seal the nails used in the metal) The starter sticks to the drip, the shingle sticks to the starter. It's bullet proof. If water gets under the shingle it hits the starter strip. If it gets under the starter, it hits the drip. If it somehow gets by all that or backs up from snow and ice, it hits the ice and water barrier. Edge metal almost always gets sandwiched. Even in commercial roofing using single ply membranes. There may be more than 1 way to do this, but 9 out of 10 good roofers prefer my way 😊
You are correct about edge metal gets sandwiched but starter strip doesn’t seal to ice and water adequately. You need a strip of ice and water that wraps over the edge, then drip, then the full sheet of ice and water.
Not complicated at all. Ice shield and paper first then drip, always.
How is the code in Pembroke pines, South Florida regarding which goes first?
Do both to satisfy everybody. Measure out from edge how much ice sheild you need to cover fascia and especially if you are wrapping the facia to cover down and under and back up a half inch. Then drip edge . Then run full width on top of drip edge and up roof. ALl problems solved.
Best way is to apply half a strip of Ice and water then drip edge then a full strip on top of drip edge
Well what I do is remove Gutter hangers if it's a existing roof clean the Gutter install Gutter flashing apron etc I know they call it diferente in some states or companies make sure the Gutter flashing overlaps at least a inch then I nail the hangers over the flashing place ice and water shield over the flashing and work my way up the reason being I don't place the ice under and the flashing ontop is because with rain or snow sitting on the roof if water some how gets under the shingles and starter it still has to fal on ice and water then on flashing and in to the Gutter and if it were the other way around the flashing would prevent water flow with could cause water to get stopped by the flashing causing the nails on the flashing to rot out and then leave holes on the ice and water and in the decking I work in Chicago area I've seen the flashing onto but asleep that method causes the fascia border to rotten out just yesterday my crew and I did the roof on a garage gable to gable garage drip edge on top of ice shield nails on the drip edge rotten out causing leaks on roof decking and fascia both sides of t he garage so we had to change them just thinking about it its better to not have holes on the ice and water shield that way its more water tight that nailing the drip edge more holes more leaks that's my saying just like shingles more nails more chances of leaks 5 nails per shingle is enough for any asphalt shingle
My take on the Drip edge ,Ice Guard first because if you get water Damning it's less likely for the water to drop behind the fachia board . Retired in my 70s from Cleveland Ohio
I'm surprised that IKO "Edge Seal" starter roll is not in the conversation.
We prefer to install ice/water covering fascia first. Then install drip (add a fingers width gap behind drip on shallow pitch). Then Edge Seal on rakes and eve's. This method provides an extremely tight bond between the shingles and the drip. Well worth the added time and $!
Ice and water first then drip edge
It’s code in south Florida. If you put drip first and put ice and water over it the tar has no bite on the drip.and we don’t nail starter on we only tar it to the drip. For tile roofs we put tar paper first then drip then underlayment over drip.
Use cement under dripedge first, then adhere underlayment to the dripedge with more roof cement. Finally, do this to the shingle starter course The old master roofer taught me this, in hurricane country years ago.
I am installing flat roof flashing under shingles and over corrugated patio roof.
Seems most city codes require roof flashing to be 26 Gauge (0.019 inch).
But the flashing rolls sold at Home Depot are thinner.
How do I resolve this?
I'm in Chester County Pennsylvania just west of Philadelphia... Climate zone 4, on the border of climate zone 5... I have only seen an ice damn form in a gutter that filled the gutter and backed up under the shingles once in my 12 years of for-profit work and my 8 years of non-profit work before that in the home repair industry.... In the one case were it occurred, the gutter had already been compromised, was low in the center so it was not draining properly and had the gutter maintenance been taken care of in a timely seasonal manner, the problem the customer experienced with ice filling the gutter would not have occurred.
What I have seen, more times than I can count, is something goes wrong with the shingle installation or a tree branch damage or something, or a nail works its way loose and pops through the shingle after 15 or 20 years and water gets down around that nail and starts making its way through the space between the underside of the shingles and the top of the underlayment. I've also seen where the roofing crew has neglected to clip the shingle corners in a valley to prevent water from running horizontally across the top edge of a shingle and this is also allowed water to get down to the underlayment... And in both those cases, if the underlayment and ice and water shield is on top of the drip edge at the bottom edge of the roof, the water will exit safely into the gutter. If that ice and water shield is underneath of the drip edge, the drip edge can begin to act as a dam and allow the water to run horizontally and look for a hole or away into the roof system.
Based on my experience of repairing hundreds of roof system failures, I am far more concerned about water getting into the underlayment system from above and running down between the shingles in the underlayment then I ever am about water coming up from the gutter from the bottom...
And I have no qualms with putting the side drip edge on after the ice and water shield is down... And it makes more sense to me in a sequence of construction... I installed the bottom drip edge, I install all of the ice and water shield, and then we can go back and install the ice and water shield over the rakes.
To some extent, I do believe that this discussion is climate zone specific. For example, we only experience horizontal rain two or three times a year whereas other regions of the country experience this far more frequently.
I'm becoming a big fan of Matt Reisinger's Monopoly house framing where he provides continuous peel and stick membrane from the walls up onto the roof, and then frames out the soffits after the waterproofing is installed.... But I replace existing roofs far more frequently than I'm building a new house from scratch so my vote is drip edge goes on first at the bottom and ice and water shield is installed on top.
Here's a quick instructional video on why it's important to cut the corners in your valleys....
ruclips.net/video/Fp0OZVsTM08/видео.html
Texas Windstorm requires underlayment to be installed on top of drip edge on eaves and under on rakes.
good to know. Thank you.
When do I not need an ice and water shield? I am using zip system and was told I do not need ice and water shield.
Flash tape or piece of ice to cover fascia, then drop, then ice
Honestly it doesn't matter if water is getting under yours shingles in trouble.i put ice first then dip then before I shingle I put some bull across the drip to cover the nails in Florida you have to do they can see that you put a nail every 4 inches.but I roofed Henry Fischer homes with nothing but felt no ice guard no drip and now I'm reroofing these same houses and there is almost no damaged wood
8 years ago when I got my roof done used tar paper and back then that was good enough now 8 years later yes its probably better but is it really needed.