Give this a shot if you want to experiment a bit. I use the same protein content flour, 74% hydration. Mix flour and 85f water only in the spiral for a few minutes until it's completely combined, let it autolyse(rest) in the mixer for 45min to 1 hour. I cover the mixing bowl with a damp cloth to prevent evaporation. Toss in the levain and salt, mix in the spiral until it passes the window pane test. Pull it out, do the same stretch 3 or 4 stretch and folds every half hour(2 hours). Let bulk another 2-3 hours. Weigh and preshape then let bench rest for 30-45 min Final shape and bassinet. I cold proof over night and throw them into the oven straight out of the fridge. Oven temp at 435-445f, 20 minutes with steam then vent and brown to desired color. Internal temp min 205f.
I will look over everything you wrote in more detail. I do autolyse most of my breads for better extensibility. I generally steer away from cold retardation, because I don't have humidity control in my refrigerator and they dry out quite a lot in the proof baskets. Your oven temps seem low? But saying that, I've noticed the temperature you set the deck to and what actually happens are not always the same. My lower deck tends to burn the bottoms unless it's set almost 40 degrees below the top. Lately I've tried a different technique: insert at high temperature to get better oven spring, like 480F and then turn the oven off. The temp slowly creeps down throughout the bake and I end up getting nothing burned, but great volume to my loaves.
Great video. Such troubleshooting is what is needed. I had never seen it on another channel. Clearly deserve much more more views. Keep the good stuff.
Thank you! I am also planning on getting a mixer soon and this was helpful! For the sticking in the baskets, dust with rice flour, that’s been a lifesaver for me!
1st attempt: Overfermented. 2nd attempt: Almost overfermented. If you want more irregular and bigger holes you should proof it a bit shorter. 3rd attempt: Great result. I prefer darker crust but that is just my personal preference.
Nice video. Good to see the progression through the bakes. As you mention, the malt probably didn't effect the overall end product other than perhaps color. I've found that too much steam at the beginning of the bake is as detrimental to crust as too little in a home oven. Also, in my home oven, venting earlier in the bake than later improves the crust. Rice flour in the baskets has solved my sticking problems even with very high hydration doughs. The production quality of your videos has dramatically improved!
Thank you for the feedback, I am slowly getting the hang of making these videos :) I actually used quite a bit of flour in my baskets with little success. I will try the rice flour, as you suggest, which may work better. Yes, venting at the right stage is important but I've noticed that the chamber is still very moist even until the very end of the bake because the oven is so well sealed. That little vent port in the back is not enough to really allow the steam to escape. I'm now trying to open the door completely the last few minutes to really dry it out.
The siphon doesn't get it all out either, unfortunately. Ideal is a drain plug, which you can add to your current bowl (apparently), but I have not been adventurous enough to do it.
Nope, you didn't miss anything, I didn't retard overnight. It went from proof to oven directly. I am not a big fan of cold overnight proofing for a few reasons. The dough is 72F when it goes in the oven.
I think that your bread still comes lightly colored. Higher temperature could be kept all the way. Would it have better effect on crumb? It is recommended here to bake at 245 degree Celsius (473F).
Yes, I have been continuing to experiment and you are correct. But 473F will burn the bottoms. What I do now is start at 475F and after 6 minutes of baking, I turn the bottom heat off for the remainder of the bake. The result is satisfactory. Thanks for watching.
Absolutely and great question. Not only do I include it, I go as far as calculating the exact water/flour contribution based on how much of the starter I actually used. So if my starter is 1kg but I only use 975g of it in the final dough, I multiply the water and flour contribution of my starter by 0.975.
What I believe is your flour is not up to 77% hydration. I only go to 77% when playing and I am using flour with 14% protein or add vital wheat gluten 50 years ago they were many small shops around the San Francisco Bay area making sourdough with no refrigeration but generally the area is very cool. And their hydration was generally around 68 to 70%. You want more holes do at least one lamination of stretch and fold cycle. And I believe that two to three hours and four stretching folds is enough. Your total time is about right at 75° to 77 should be about 8 to 10 hour. 😁
I realize you might be skeptical, but the formulation (and it's a very popular one) is 77% hydration using 11.5% bread flour. It was a sloppy mess, but I think at a higher bake temperature I might have had better results.
@@LoveLevain with lower protein content like that, I'd think it'd be necessary to do stretch and folds or coil folds to build the gluten up for the dough to hold it's shape and help with oven spring.
15:58 why do u say it is dissepointing, who told you that it MUST have BIG holes? and do the big holes give some exotic taste? interesting to know seriously.
Not necessarily big holes, but variable sized holes (big, med and small). This shows hand mixing occurred, as opposed to machine mixing plus a long fermentation. Many call it "artisan", but whatever you call it, the variable holes is a look of quality (in my opinion).
The loader was from ABS, the ones who sold me my deck oven and bread slicer. The baskets I get from SFBI.com (which is actually TMB Baking). The price is reasonable on them and I have a relationship with SFBI, so I like to support them.
For sure some of those loaves needed more time. Your opinion is shared by many including me. Keep in mind it is also a matter of taste and can vary based on geography. In New York they would think it was perfect. In California they would say it is grossly under-baked. Take a look at stuff Tartine does. Legendary bakery and a legendary baker. I personally think it all looks burnt. Clearly I am in the minority.
@@LoveLevain Ah, yes...I live outside of San Francisco we do like our bread with that nutty/caramel flavor one gets from a dark bake! Every town now in the area seems to have an artisinal bakery and every farmers market has 2 or 3 micro-bakeries represented.
If you type in those words in a search, you will see many options. I got it on Amazon. When I first saw it, I laughed immediately and knew I had to get it :)
@@LoveLevain never saw you as a throat punching kinda guy but I now see why :-p Anyway, great video because I've gone through a similar thing where my sourdough was flat (75% hydration) despite the stretching and stitching. My home oven doesn't get as hot and I tried doing it without a Dutch oven so that may explain the outcome.
Why did you try a new recipe with such hugh batches? Seems so wasteful, no? I never make more than a few loaves when trying something new. You can also try preheating the oven to the same top and bottom heat, then increase the top temperature after you inject the steam. That's what I usually do and it works great for sourdough.
26:16 are u absolutely sure ur starter was strong enough for the 77%? how does it make sense that 77% worked for the author of the recipe and not for you? i could understand over proof, not so strong starter, shaping method, maybe tempratures, interesting stuff tbh. why it worked for the author? answer about 1 minute later :D:D:D 27:56 i should just keep my mouth shut and listen lol
Give this a shot if you want to experiment a bit. I use the same protein content flour, 74% hydration.
Mix flour and 85f water only in the spiral for a few minutes until it's completely combined, let it autolyse(rest) in the mixer for 45min to 1 hour. I cover the mixing bowl with a damp cloth to prevent evaporation.
Toss in the levain and salt, mix in the spiral until it passes the window pane test.
Pull it out, do the same stretch 3 or 4 stretch and folds every half hour(2 hours).
Let bulk another 2-3 hours.
Weigh and preshape then let bench rest for 30-45 min
Final shape and bassinet. I cold proof over night and throw them into the oven straight out of the fridge.
Oven temp at 435-445f, 20 minutes with steam then vent and brown to desired color. Internal temp min 205f.
I will look over everything you wrote in more detail. I do autolyse most of my breads for better extensibility. I generally steer away from cold retardation, because I don't have humidity control in my refrigerator and they dry out quite a lot in the proof baskets. Your oven temps seem low? But saying that, I've noticed the temperature you set the deck to and what actually happens are not always the same. My lower deck tends to burn the bottoms unless it's set almost 40 degrees below the top. Lately I've tried a different technique: insert at high temperature to get better oven spring, like 480F and then turn the oven off. The temp slowly creeps down throughout the bake and I end up getting nothing burned, but great volume to my loaves.
Great video. Such troubleshooting is what is needed. I had never seen it on another channel. Clearly deserve much more more views. Keep the good stuff.
Much appreciated!
Thank you! I am also planning on getting a mixer soon and this was helpful! For the sticking in the baskets, dust with rice flour, that’s been a lifesaver for me!
I actually dusted the baskets with a lot of flour but, alas, it was still sticking like glue to the linen at the 77% hydration :(
Try only rice flour if you haven’t though! My breads are 85-90% hydration and they never stick, only when I used to dust them with wheat flour
@@jud8161 Noted and thanks. I will definitely do that. I just bought a bag of rice flour to try.
Love that troubleshooting. Been through a series of such myself as well. Can't wait for your experiment videos.
1st attempt: Overfermented.
2nd attempt: Almost overfermented. If you want more irregular and bigger holes you should proof it a bit shorter.
3rd attempt: Great result. I prefer darker crust but that is just my personal preference.
Actually, first attempt was overhydrated not over-proofed.
Nice video. Good to see the progression through the bakes. As you mention, the malt probably didn't effect the overall end product other than perhaps color. I've found that too much steam at the beginning of the bake is as detrimental to crust as too little in a home oven. Also, in my home oven, venting earlier in the bake than later improves the crust. Rice flour in the baskets has solved my sticking problems even with very high hydration doughs. The production quality of your videos has dramatically improved!
Thank you for the feedback, I am slowly getting the hang of making these videos :)
I actually used quite a bit of flour in my baskets with little success. I will try the rice flour, as you suggest, which may work better. Yes, venting at the right stage is important but I've noticed that the chamber is still very moist even until the very end of the bake because the oven is so well sealed. That little vent port in the back is not enough to really allow the steam to escape. I'm now trying to open the door completely the last few minutes to really dry it out.
Owh wow! Thanks for the siphon tip! I currently use a small aquarium pump but it does not get all the water out.
The siphon doesn't get it all out either, unfortunately. Ideal is a drain plug, which you can add to your current bowl (apparently), but I have not been adventurous enough to do it.
Very useful tutorial. Thx
Perhaps I missed it..... But are you doing a cold ferment? How warm is the dough before put into the oven?
Nope, you didn't miss anything, I didn't retard overnight. It went from proof to oven directly. I am not a big fan of cold overnight proofing for a few reasons. The dough is 72F when it goes in the oven.
I think that your bread still comes lightly colored. Higher temperature could be kept all the way. Would it have better effect on crumb? It is recommended here to bake at 245 degree Celsius (473F).
Yes, I have been continuing to experiment and you are correct. But 473F will burn the bottoms. What I do now is start at 475F and after 6 minutes of baking, I turn the bottom heat off for the remainder of the bake. The result is satisfactory. Thanks for watching.
I didn't see if you did a pre shape or let it proof over night in the cooler. Have you watched any video's from Proof Bread.
Retarding dough has its advantages and disadvantages. I definitely preshape, but left out the details to keep the video from getting excessively long.
Do you include the water in the starter as part of your overall baker's percentage?
Absolutely and great question. Not only do I include it, I go as far as calculating the exact water/flour contribution based on how much of the starter I actually used. So if my starter is 1kg but I only use 975g of it in the final dough, I multiply the water and flour contribution of my starter by 0.975.
What I believe is your flour is not up to 77% hydration. I only go to 77% when playing and I am using flour with 14% protein or add vital wheat gluten
50 years ago they were many small shops around the San Francisco Bay area making sourdough with no refrigeration but generally the area is very cool. And their hydration was generally around 68 to 70%.
You want more holes do at least one lamination of stretch and fold cycle. And I believe that two to three hours and four stretching folds is enough. Your total time is about right at 75° to 77 should be about 8 to 10 hour.
😁
I realize you might be skeptical, but the formulation (and it's a very popular one) is 77% hydration using 11.5% bread flour. It was a sloppy mess, but I think at a higher bake temperature I might have had better results.
@@LoveLevain with lower protein content like that, I'd think it'd be necessary to do stretch and folds or coil folds to build the gluten up for the dough to hold it's shape and help with oven spring.
15:58 why do u say it is dissepointing, who told you that it MUST have BIG holes? and do the big holes give some exotic taste? interesting to know seriously.
Not necessarily big holes, but variable sized holes (big, med and small). This shows hand mixing occurred, as opposed to machine mixing plus a long fermentation. Many call it "artisan", but whatever you call it, the variable holes is a look of quality (in my opinion).
Where did you get your baskets and loader?
The loader was from ABS, the ones who sold me my deck oven and bread slicer. The baskets I get from SFBI.com (which is actually TMB Baking). The price is reasonable on them and I have a relationship with SFBI, so I like to support them.
I love the slicer! For now I’ll just dream of one🤣
One last comment: I believe you should keep the loaves in the oven for another 5-7 minutes...they are slightly too light, in my very humble opinion.
For sure some of those loaves needed more time. Your opinion is shared by many including me. Keep in mind it is also a matter of taste and can vary based on geography. In New York they would think it was perfect. In California they would say it is grossly under-baked. Take a look at stuff Tartine does. Legendary bakery and a legendary baker. I personally think it all looks burnt. Clearly I am in the minority.
@@LoveLevain Ah, yes...I live outside of San Francisco we do like our bread with that nutty/caramel flavor one gets from a dark bake! Every town now in the area seems to have an artisinal bakery and every farmers market has 2 or 3 micro-bakeries represented.
...where can I get your sign that says "I bake so I don't punch people in the throat"? :D
If you type in those words in a search, you will see many options. I got it on Amazon. When I first saw it, I laughed immediately and knew I had to get it :)
@@LoveLevain never saw you as a throat punching kinda guy but I now see why :-p
Anyway, great video because I've gone through a similar thing where my sourdough was flat (75% hydration) despite the stretching and stitching. My home oven doesn't get as hot and I tried doing it without a Dutch oven so that may explain the outcome.
Why did you try a new recipe with such hugh batches? Seems so wasteful, no? I never make more than a few loaves when trying something new.
You can also try preheating the oven to the same top and bottom heat, then increase the top temperature after you inject the steam. That's what I usually do and it works great for sourdough.
Hindsight is 20/20. I thought with such a well-known and loved recipe, I could take a risk with a big batch. That was part of my fail.
26:16 are u absolutely sure ur starter was strong enough for the 77%? how does it make sense that 77% worked for the author of the recipe and not for you? i could understand over proof, not so strong starter, shaping method, maybe tempratures, interesting stuff tbh. why it worked for the author?
answer about 1 minute later :D:D:D 27:56 i should just keep my mouth shut and listen lol
:)