Did the author also explore the impact of religious thinking on these populations? Christianity, in particular, often carries a strong element of shame, reflected in common responses like, “Better than I deserve!” when asked, “How are you?” The influence of religion on personal identity-and how politicians have skillfully exploited these dynamics-deserves serious consideration.
The lack of education & literacy within America's citizens is unacceptable. It is deliberate, calculated & controlling. A child in a small town is just as deserving as the child in the big city to ysving a primary & secondary education. This would empower ppl more.
Education in big cities is a lot of times much worse than small towns... it comes down to the wealth of the district primarily, and there's no shortage of poor districts in cities.
People should not have babies if they can’t provide them with a decent life. I was broke most of my childbearing years and consciously made the decision I couldn’t do it.
@@AvsFan32America is a diverse place. Most people in poor parts of the country never talk about birth control or STIs, especially if religion is a big part of the community. Consider yourself lucky that you had the knowledge you did because many people don't.
@@AvsFan32 wise decision and only possible since women have control over their bodies. That precludes living for the sake of other people and being a slave. There are many who voted fo
@@bcbeastersEducation in poor parts of the country, whether rural or inner city is equally dismal. The difference is that poor rural schools lack the violence often found in poor inner city schools, but both struggle with having updated books for kids and working HVAC systems, etc.
I really appreciate this video and I fully agree with the entirety of its content. I have an extra concern to top it all off, and that is of a potential another health related crisis. I am an ICU nurse who cared for COVID patients. I work in a large hospital and we saw the sickest of the sick. It is so frustrating to me when the severity of the pandemic is completely dismissed. The heath care system was on the brink of collapse and there was a great deal of collateral damage that was suffered by the mishandling of the pandemic by the Trump administration and the disinformation. We had 3 extra units open. The Navy had to come in and help us. When the vaccines were released the ones who died were overwhelmingly unvaccinated. We were being threatened with violence and the care we were providing patients was obstructed by families who did not trust us. Many of the unvaccinated patients we cared for were MAGA anti-vaxxers and their families made our lives hell. We ran out of gowns and masks. We had to reuse N95s for days. I will never forget the day when a respiratory therapist told me we were down to 1 ventilator and the dark laugh we shared wondering what would happen. The amount of nurses who quit working bedside is staggering. Anyone who worked in direct patient care during the COVID pandemic has some level of PTSD. Hospital systems have found that nurses can do more with less, when pressed, and now that is the standard. Trump and MAGA ideology has had a devastating impact on the heath care system and cannot be understated. The lesson I have learned from Trump's win is that if you tell a lie over and over and over and over again, it becomes the truth. That is exactly what he did and it worked.”100
What you said is so true. And they don't believe that that man is in it for himself ONLY. He shows it to us daily. There's no way I would stick my name/neck out for him. He will cause you misery and create legal bills for you. It's amazing how people will vote against their own interests.
Thank you for this comment. How quickly we forget the pandemic. Maybe because we want to? I’m not sure but what the health care folks and America went through was a nightmare. T was a terrible leader during that crises and yet he has been rewarded with another term in office. I’m very angry about that. President Biden came in and did the best he could to clean up the mess with no gratitude from the American people. I will never understand the MAGA movement or their relentless acceptance of the poor leadership of T.
Great points. In my opinion, I feel that about half of pro Trump supporters are people who like him because of who he purports to hate, and they believe his lies that they will take care of these “problematic immigrants.” In reality, you and I both know Trump does not care about immigrants. In fact, he sees them as useful low wage tools for businesses who don’t want to pay taxes (Republican owned to be sure). Republicans are good at creating the problems and then turning around and promising to be the fix. Right wing media does it too. Fear works as a means of control. The funny thing is crime has actually been going down, and border crossings are actually lower under Biden. But right wing media will lie, spin, or omit this truth.
Hear hear, I fully agree with you and have felt the same thoughts. It’s about hate and fear. Look at maga’s top issues: they hate immigrants and an open border. So rightwing politicians promise to fix it but in reality they don’t fix anything, they voted down that comprehensive border deal. But it’s about creating fear and hate in the party. Once they get you w hate they will promise to be the one to take care of it for you. But they don’t. And the fear they created via right wing media, pod casts etc is based on lies bc we need immigrants in our labor force, and for our SS and Medicare bc they pay into it via taxes but don’t receive federal benefits back. And finally immigrants commit less crime than US citizens. Immigrants are not the enemy in fact it’s Republicans -their own leaders , who are the enemies. These culture wars are distractions. If republicans cared about kids they would help democrats with sensible gun reform since guns are the leading causes of child deaths.
I really appreciate your comment (and the responses so far to your comment) and feel so bad for what you went through 😔. It's madness when you're trying to help everyone including the very people who were bashing you. I share your concerns.
This is such an integral part of us understanding as a country cause and effect. Too often in the present day we rant and rail about the effects while simultaneously ignoring (sometime blatantly) the cause/s that have led to these effects before us. Thank you for this discussion!
There seem to be some paradoxical ideas in this discussion. On the one hand, we are told that individualistic "red-voting" people blame themselves for their poor circumstances and feel shame as a result, but at the same time we are told that these people are lashing out at traditional institutions because they blame the failures of those institutions for their situation. As I understand it, the paradox is resolved by recognizing that the initial shame has been transformed into generalized anger, largely as a result of cultural elites pushing even more shame on them. That makes sense to me, but if this is right, I think it is important to realize that this means those red voters have basically moved 180 degrees from the principle of personal responsibility that they started from. Now everything wrong with their lives is the fault of the government, the "elites", the media, big pharma, you name it. They've gone from one untenable extreme view to another. I'm not sure why it is so hard for so many people to accept a moderate position where individual choices and social circumstances both play important roles in shaping how we end up.
A very insightful comment. It got me thinking about how shame might turn to anger and rage, and then about how that change might cause a change from blaming oneself to blaming the government. Here is what I came up with. One feels shame when something bad happens to only to you, or to you and a few people around you. But when you see it happening to many people in your county, state or region, you start to think "this isn't really my fault". That raises the question of who is at fault.
Even if capable, not everyone can get to the top just because the structure of the workforce is pyramidal. Who's gonna pick fruit, clean the office, etc...? Also, I left a midwestern state in the late 80's with the minimum wage at $3.50, now it is at $7.50. In state tuition went x8 and rents well, I dont know but... . Let's not mention the cost of fresh food.
Coming from a strong union family I know the difference between pride in jobs and wages vs corporate greed that belittles the worker. Cheap product vs good wages must be discussed. Good conversation.
thank you Katie Couric and Arlie Hochschild for this very inciteful, emotionally sensitive and illuminating interview. I plan to buy both of Hochschild's books and I hope that I can become a better listener.
Thank you very much for inviting Arlie!!! Such wisdom!!! In Poland the situation is the same. Two tribes, speaking different languages I will buy the book and read it!!! Long live sociology!!! Lovya guys :)))))))
@@jlvandat69I know people her age and older that function at a much higher level than her. She has a difficult time speaking and getting her thoughts out… my older friends don’t. She is too slow and difficult for me to listen to. And I found her extremely boring, with nothing profound to say.
@@jeremyway-ue1xq I thought she was very articulate and I found her thoughts to be very interesting. Perhaps you are used to social media spewing out thoughts at a rapid pace without going in any depth. It might be a you problem not an Ms. Hochschild problem.
omg, Arlie is brilliant. tyvm for this excellent conversation. she brought up view points and issues i was not aware of or considered. my god, we have been failing in so many different ways, its almost impossible to point fingers. since all sides are feeling the same offences of the other. the hate bonding and fear mongering against our society, is really having its moment, amidst perceptions of moral compass swaying with philosophical ideology influences. we are a hot mess.
"since all sides are feeling the same offences of the other" -- Um -- what does this even mean? That right - wing fascists and those who want to empower them are mean, sadistic, hierarchically-obsessed people -- but we shouldn't say so ...? Because people on the left who vote for democracy want healthcare for everyone, and not just White people?
The concern is the disconnect from reality. A friend of ours is a nurse. Her family lives in an Appalachian trailer park. In 2015, they believed Donald Trump was literally going to arrive and hand them cash. Convinced. Who can find common ground with that reality disconnect.
I knew lots of democrats that actually thought that Trump was going to throw all the journalists that didn't support him in jail and that they were going to be arrested if they didn't vote for him. Convinced. Who can find common ground with that reality disconnect?
My Trump voting mother has Fox on 24/7. She started her own company (a family business we all worked in) which has been very successful, she’s traveled the world, and lived upper middle class in her adulthood. One day she says to me “I found out they’re using abortion as a form of contraception. They don’t even use contraception and just go get multiple abortions. It’s wrong and abortion needs to stop!” There was silence as I tried to figure out how to remind her of her own experience with abortion. “Mom, your daughters (my two older sisters) got abortions when they really needed one and they didn’t abuse the procedure.” She looked shocked like she couldn’t reconcile her experiences with what Fox was telling her to believe. It’s all really sad. My mom has become an angry shell of her former self.
Thank you so very much Katie for this episode! This information and insight made me open my eyes to another side of this dilemma we are in. My mind was closed because I was never exposed to this side of America. Knowing how a person personally feels about their lives and how helpless and lost they must feel literally broke my heart. I welled up inside and I began to cry for these people. I cannot imagine how this feels. I am a gay man but I have also lived in a city environment my entire life (Grew up in Philadelphia, now in the Ft Lauderdale area), although I have dealt with hate to a degree but never have I dealt with the feeling of failure and helplessness in not being able to provide. Again, thank you. You literally made me a new person. Bless you!💝💕
You don't improve on "feeling helpless and lost" by voting for someone to crap on people who don't look like you. What does this even mean? That fascists and those who want to empower them are mean, sadistic, hierarchically-obsessed people -- but we shouldn't say so ...?
Agree with you, but can this despair somehow lead to unacceptance of the LGBTQ community? Could they feel that too much attention was paid to our rights? If it's us vs. them it will hurt so many people and this nation. And isn't there some diversity in those communities too? I find this all so upsetting and threatening.
I completely agree. I’m not sure how any of that can be fixed because it always seems like some sect of society is left out. If the founding fathers did this experiment right from the beginning by living by the principle that All are created equal we wouldn’t be in the situation where anyone would have to fight for their rights. What is sad is that we had groups of people who fought for these rights and all of that seems in vane because instead of progressing we are regressing. That is the hardest for me to comprehend when people are all of a sudden against progressing. It puzzles me because I think, “These people enjoy modern conveniences yet they condemn people for wanting society to progress.” 🤔🤔💭💭
Ihavebeen waiting for some academic to get to the bottom of this. Just heartbreakingly brilliant. What an remarkable woman. Thank you for this interview
The American electorate is incredibly fickle and constantly evolving. I don't think anyone will be able to make sense of how people vote from one election to the next.
It can be hard to make sense of but being an incumbent, for starters, is a negative because of the constant need for change. (A trend, I believe, that's worldwide.) Now, Trump was president so where's the change? Well, he was able to manipulate people's memories of the way things were under his presidency, reminding us of how wonderful things were, which was not the case.
Americans have short memories and always vote ‘at the moment.’ George Bush 41 was at 90% approval rating in 1991 after we won the 1st Gulf War. One year later and a recession caused high unemployment, he lost to Clinton only getting 38%. Just think of issues like Covid lockdowns, Jan 6, even abortion, all issues that were big in 2020 and 2022. They all took a backseat to inflation and high grocery bills. That’s why i think both parties doing these autopsies when they lose is sort of overanalyzing things. When the economy is bad, the party is power is held accountable, plain and simple. Once Harris did not distance herself from Biden, she was essentially an incumbent who presided under high inflation. Now there is a party shift with working class going to the Republicans and college educated suburbs going to Democrats. That’s structural, but elections are still driven by those independents voting on ‘what have you done for me lately.’
Excellent conversation, and appreciated. The nation is scrambling for answers, and rightly so. November 5th was a magnitude 9.0 earthquake and the aftershocks are far from over. America just elected a person with attributes diametrically-opposed to democracy, the Rule of Law, and common decency. Simply unimaginable. I agree with most every point; the causes are many and complex. However, throughout the conversation I kept grasping for "actionable measures", i.e., specific, viable, effective actions that would shift MAGA affection away from a charismatic, divisive, narcissistic leader and towards the values we used to admire in a President......honesty, integrity, a desire for unity and competency. There was mention of the need for greater social interaction and the loss of many institutions which used to provide regular gatherings. But reversing such trends seems impossible, like putting the genie back in the bottle. The new "church" or union hall is social media. And social media is packed with disinformation and misinformation that is not being called out as it would in a public meeting. Instead, it's being amplified and propagated, causing large numbers to exist in the bubble of their choice. If we are going to revive democracy, step #1 needs to be the reduction of false information distributed via social media and the internet. It will be an enormous effort, and not without controversy. And we need to be nicer to each other.....less shaming and blaming and more decency and understanding. Very difficult days ahead.
What are we going to do? Do we go back to sticks and stones so men can beat their chests and feel strong and needed? Women worked so hard in the 50's, 60's and 70's not to mention the early 1900's and the centuries before when babies came every 2 or 3 years wanted or not. Do we give back our hard fought desire to be seen and appreciated? F...g men need to get a grip and evolve a bit. I agree that they have a problem and discomfort in this world but we all have difficulty with the rate of change and perhaps Elon Musk is right. Men need a new frontier. This sense of grievance is so toxic. I do not fully understand this sense that the only way to feel happy with one's status is to beat other people down. Do we as biological beings need to scramble for control and seek the light at the top of the pile of humanity? I have been happy just to not be in the lower 10 percent who would get crushed. I wish I had more compassion. I live in a MAGA neighborhood and do not know how to respond effectively. My neighbors all appear very capable and financially independent. They often raise their own grandchildren when drugs are a problem. They care for their aging parents. At the same time they give no credit to the government for those Social Security checks. I am trying to listen but am scared to death of the depth of misinformation and lack patience.
It’s not social media packed with disinformation but the mainstream media. The legacy media of the big Networks who outright lie and gaslight the public. When the Hunter Biden laptop story was leaked 4 years ago by the NYPost they got censored by Twitter (not X at the time). Anyone who posted the story got deleted and censored. The mainstream media never even reported it until it got so big it couldn’t be ignored. Please look at both sides.
As a former liberal it still shocks me when people say Trump is against law and order.. and in the next breath 'catch and release' is ok. That's why I'm leaning red. The hypocrisy.
listening to Ms Hochschild took me back to my friend Judy. She even used some of the same gestures to make her points. This was the best conversation on this topic I have heard so far. I can see why people confided in her. I saw problems with the Democratic campaign. i even wrote to them about it--everything was Middle Class. The pollsters separating out the college educated voters from the others. I have an Associate Degree from a technical college. It makes me angry that it is assumed I am not intelligent enough to see how bad the other candidate is because I didn't graduate from a 4-year college. Democrats have to change course.
Great interivew, so insightful. Thank you for undertaking the task of trying to understand how the western world can once again entertain the thought of sincere, honest and non-judgmental conversations in order to live in a more just and peaceful world.
This interview has had a profound impact on me (almost spiritual)! The skills set Arlie is using would be important in getting real political cooperation between between people to take place. I feel real hope.
I get that. I moved from the City to Dallas and lived there for 20 years. What she says is brilliant. I could sense the shame in Texans and anxiety too. She puts the pieces together and it makes sense on a deeper level than I’ve heard before.
I spent the better part of yesterday reading Stolen Pride after listening to this interview. It's quite a page-turner, and it's a great gift to be able to learn about this community. The honesty of some of the interviewees is breathtaking. I have earnestly struggled for a couple of years now to understand the appeal of T**** to people like the ones in her book, and the notion that basically he sees and accepts them (despite the fact that ultimately I can't see that he'll do anything but hurt them further with his policies and actions) does make a horrifying kind of sense, at least at an emotional level. The concept of "he's a bully but he's our bully" espoused by basically very good people haunts me. I would highly recommend an additional book: David Brooks' recent How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen.
These people have been shat upon for decades as the elites have shipped off the jobs that gave them a decent living and dignified lives. And then mocked for their poverty and "backwardness" by those same elites who control EVERYTHING. Remember "bitter clingers" and "deplorables?" And then vilified for opposing massive waves of illegal immigrants flooding their towns and taking their services? How on earth these people can't get this is boggling. Trump is the only politician who says "I hear you and understand you, and I will put YOU first for a change."
His policies helped in the first term. Biden turned back the clock and made things worse. No reason to think Trump will make country better. You need to listen that's why you lost the election.
Thank you, Katie and Dr. Rochschild, for giving us some hope. Understanding the emotional issues of others can encourage empathy and reengagement, which could hopefully start conversations that could solve important issues for us all.
We are dancing around the Karpman Drama Triangle together (Victim/Persecutor/Rescuer) - locked in by our instinctual defensiveness. I think one of the most important lessons of this interview: We need to Learn to Take our Alarm System offline and LISTEN to find common ground. Get Curious & find solutions together. Empower each other.
What a wonderfully insightful presentation of what is going on with men who are blue collar or work in skilled trades. Thank you. My mother's ancestors moved from NC to Ky. Her parents moved from Ky to In. Her father was a farmer. He escaped poverty by moving to and purchasing arable land. I grew up in small towns in Indiana. I know how blue collar men think because I was raised around them and by a blue collar Dad who was an alcoholic. They feel ashamed if they cannot provide for their family. I think often they believe their wives should not have to work outside the home. Many have not been able to adapt to the changes in industry due to automation and the shift from fossil to sustainable energy systems. The industrial economic systems did not care about anything but profit, not the workers.
It’s hard not to think that there is some sense of entitlement going on here with white men too. The system has hurt women too, especially women. Especially single mothers, especially women of color and yet women seem to take it much more maturely then men. And keep fighting, raising their children, and going to school to better themselves and their communities.
Katie, you're a great journalist and a kind caring person. You said you're very solution-oriented. Why did you wait until your last question to ask about solutions? Perhaps something to consider going forward. Thanks.
What a compelling interview. I saw that it was almost an hour long and I really didn't want to take the time. But the author kept giving so many interesting responses to Katie's great questions, I happily listened to it all. It really opened my mind and heart to a little better understanding of my not being able to understand how so many in dire circumstances could vote for trump. Professor Hochschild is not only brilliant but a most compassionate person. I am a native New Yorker (NYC) and so I was blessed to grow up in a multicultural city. Manhattan is also a tough town as well as a town that has so much culture and as Sinatra sang, "If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere...". With that being said, I believe there is an arrogance that is in our DNA similar to the discussion about denial and not being aware of it, I believe it the same for NY arrogance. I think for us, multicultural is not a problem, but looking down on and judging folks in Appalachia is! I know that is true for me. Poor in NYC is different that poor in other states. So thank you both for this wake up call.
Agreed completely! If you’re interested in diving deeper into this, another great sociological take on the motivation behind why people voted for Trump (with a focus on rural working class folk and farmers) is Sarah Smarsh’s interview with John Stewart. Smarsh is an author and academic from Kansas, and I believe she has a fantastic grasp on identifying some of the core issues at the root of why such people tend to vote Republican/Trump. That interview definitely opened up my mind as well- very illuminating stuff.
The wealthy have squeezed the resources out of public schools, while sending their own children to private schemes. Actual merit based public school promotions have been replaced by advancing students with their age groups. We are becoming an oligarchical monarchy - with a strong assist from kleptocracy. Our country was founded on the idea that no man is above the law. Our Supreme Court just put the president above that founding premie. I’m obviously an OG, & I fear for the future so this country. Yes, my generation DEFINITELY played its part in the decline. I hope the younger folks can pull us out of this downward spiral.
Great insightful interview. Professor Hochschild comes across as such a gentle soul, desperately trying to understand a social problem. I am in awe of her work, I think I am starting to understand because I am one of those who said, who are those clowns who vote for you know who :)
A friend’s careers included consulting to executives at the top of industry and government. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. One of his sons dropped out of college while the other graduated into a socioeconomic wasteland. Both, despite big hearts, brilliance, and talent, now in their 40s, “gave up” on America. They and their father are appalled by the aggressively self-destructive transactionalism of society. All have built and retreated to small oases of compassion in the expanding desert of America’s mercenary narcissism and despair. The irony of defensive isolation in a world where anyone is only a few clicks away is not lost on them
As a psychologist trying to understand wtf happened, this may be the first explanation of many explanations that really makes sense to me. Shame is the most powerful and painful emotion, people will do anything to avoid feeling shame and when they do feel it, it can feel like dying. Still, I’m not sure how we move forward.
I'm glad i made it through this interview, as this was an important discussion. While I agree that poor and working class white people have been left behind, I feel that many of the people Arlie interviewed have habits that make it hard to be sympathetic toward them, as they seem to have a victim mentality. Instead of banding together with other groups dealing with classism and discrimination, rural white working-class and poor people seem to be about revenge and remaining separate. Also, why is it that Democrats always have to be the good guys? Republicans openly hate and mock these people, yet even before Trump, they consistently voted for Republicans. I'm not saying that Democrats wouldn’t benefit from acknowledging that being white doesn't mean you don't suffer from poverty or have barriers to living a comfortable life, just that it's a little disingenious to act as if this group doesn't consistently vote against their own interests or aren't so willing to be rescued by a savior that they voted twice for a known conman.
Yes, the victim mentality is why they identify with him. As a political scientist advised me, over twenty years ago, “Never underestimate the ability of a Republican to play victim.”.
Republicans made them believe that because they were white they were "better" than the "other" despite them not living better. Whose fault is that? Their own hatred against POC left them behind rather than banding together with POC to fight the injustices produced by corporate greed. They blame DEI which in fact would help them because diversity includes white women and poor white and black people (diversity in socioeconomics). But they didn't want to associate with POC and this is the result of white supremacy.
How does just pointing to the “victim” and redistributing other people wealth make democrats “good guys”? Good guys are people offering their own money, effort, time to help those in need, because only personal involvement, sacrifice make you a good guy. Very often democrats play the role of “devouring mother” to gain self aggrandizing and virtue signaling which comes off as conceited patronizing. That’s my thoughts on blind spots of democrats after experiencing both being a democrat and a republican.
Magnificent guest and host. So important to learn from other people and lifestyles. Most times I think we tend to take life for granted until we hear other people’s stories.
She talked of one subgroup, of which there are many, who voted Red to express their grievances, desires, or beliefs about where they want the country to move to. For the people she spoke with and learned from the Democrats need to suck it up apologize and ask for forgiveness before running in to their communities with how they can fix things.
A lot to think about here. But my conversations with conservatives never result in a "softening" of their positions or rhetoric. They want to convince me that they are right and I am wrong.
Thank you both for this conversation. I agree that this cycle of or spiral of shame is important for us to understand. It is like a totem poll of oppression. We need to figure out how to call out bullying behavior in a public arena w/o shaming. And be careful not to blame the victim. Ultimately, oppression is never good and finding our way out of the many ways we humans oppress others is key for any healthy society IMHO. "Masterless Men: Poor Whites and Slavery in the Antebellum South (Cambridge Studies on the American South)" by Keri Leigh Merritt is another great resource about this phenomenon.
I’ve always believed we are more alike than different, until this election. I will try my best to listen with an open mind, but I’m skeptical. I hope this can bring me back around again.
I’m a 70 year old, retired mechanic leaving in Southern California. I never did very well in school very poor reader in speller, but I think I can fix anything so I made a good living. I think the Democratic Party and the liberals within it have gotten too close to the leftists in our country people to believe in social marxism. Liberals tend to have more in common with conservatives in leftists, but they have felt pray to them.
Thinking about the loneliness situation it can only be magnified when one is limited in their financial situation. I can’t be part of community if I don’t have money. Usually you have to have money to join or participate in the events. I need to understand why these men don’t blame the very corporations that pulled their businesses out of the community? I can’t understand why they don’t want to move, it’s family and once you’re poor you can’t afford to move. Last question why do they always blame everyone else and what would you say the left has to do to win them back?
For your last question, I think she talked a bit about this at the end. Don't shut out Trump voters, meet conservatives (especially those in rural areas) face to face, which Democrats tend to do, and focus on what they connect on -- renewable energy, manufacturing jobs, women's healthcare. Also, I found that her new book is available at my local library, so I'm going to pick it up today!
@@linguaphile42 True for maybe some of the younger generation. But where I’ve spent my last 45 years (red oil country) we’re talking long since retired folks who are well off, who are addicted to the rage engage of fox pundits. They’re the ones who treat politics as if it was the WWE. As for the younger folk who identify with him, it’s because they want to be like him and be able to verbally assault women & all other minorities without repercussions… canceled. And, as a young comedian pointed out recently, no one stayed cancelled. They went underground for a few months, to return unscathed.
@@sunshine3914 She was specifically talking about the Appalachian folks she had met and interviewed, I think. You're right -- Trump voters are not a monolith, just like Harris voters aren't.
you have to stop assuming that people are so misinformed when people see high prices at the grocery store and millions of illegal immigrants all across america that are given free healthcare, food, housing and transportation while some of the people in our military are struggling with homelessness comments like that are a reason why people like me voted for donald trump this election after supporting the democrats since i was 18 years old
If people can suspend judgement of people they disagree with and try to find common ground instead of trying to win the argument or prove their superior we would be better off as a country. Empathy vs Ego.
I agree with Arlie's presence and would say that the US has been here before. If we learn from our history, we see that we were once actually very creative in how we addressed the issue of shame, loss, and loss of pride by empowering and investing in rural America. The best example of this was through the creation of land-grant universities. It behooves us to revisit why we established those institutions and how successful they were in boosting the standing of rural America. They, in turn, created a sense of belonging and pride in their communities. Oh, and ever notice how in red states, the "blue dots" are always university towns even to this day? It's time for some more of this systemic rural investment.
The wealth inequality in America is currently worse than the Gilded Age... and it's by design after almost 50 years straight of right-wing economic policy...
There is currently, through Biden's legislation, historic investment in rural areas, including bringing broadband to places that never had it, and putting new manufacturing in some of the poorer communities. Trump will probably take credit for it as it unrolls. That's the frustrating thing about the cycle of a four-year term -- it takes more than that to feel the good effects of a president's policies.
...and I want to be careful in saying that higher education is not the only mode of institutional investment to consider. It's just an example. Other ideas could be VoTech (CTE) investments, corporate-apprenticeships, etc. The Democrate toyed with these ideas, but they were not put forward with the same level of gusto as other policies that might appeal to coastal and urban folks.
I’m a right-wing mechanical engineer. Like a lot of men (I believe) I’m 90% logical and 10% emotional. When a leader gives an emotional argument disguised with logic, I don’t even notice I’ve been swayed by emotion. When somebody comes to me with an emotional based argument, I listen looking only for logic and dismiss the emotional appeal. When I heard that men need to be approached with empathy, I partly agree. - To appeal to a right wing man, first ask questions. He will feel heard and understood. Then ask more questions. Then he will be open to examine the ‘emotions’ of his views.
Who are you to decide what others’ interests are? Please keep up this kind of arrogance and hubris. It certainly worked out for you in the last election.
I understand what the theory is, I agree men, especially blue collar white men, have a problem with shame. I may have missed it, but I didn’t hear anything about religion, probably the #1 cause of shame 😐 and I don’t think it can be ignored in a discussion about trump’s second win and how he used it. I believe anger is what elected trump, he recognized hatred, in all its personas, and ran on it. Simple divide and conquer 🤷🏼♀️
I have two degrees in Sociology and Criminal Justice and live in Berkeley. I grew up on a farm in the Midwest. This is about a failure to respect the Masculine’s contributions to society for the past several thousand years and ongoing. Electricity, plumbing, vehicles, house building/repair. Farming. Gas/Oil. Etc. The world is created by the inventions and the works, daily, by masculine men. And we get treated like trash and don’t even get the basics of what we were promised by society. No matter how good we are, no matter how hard we work. Masculine and Feminine are meant to live in sacred harmony, families, Love. Until this is corrected, and women see more clearly how many more good men there are than bad (who we also have to look out for and protect society from) and correct their ideological error, it’s just going to get more divided. Why would men cooperate with you if you’re trying to dominate them and refuse to offer a fair social trade? Do you WANT Handmaids Tale to happen? Like seriously wake up! 😂
Since you have two degrees in Sociology and Criminal Justice and live in Berkeley, you would then be aware that any time a woman meets a man she has the existential question to answer of whether or not this man is a physical danger to her, yes/no? I mean, how many women are physically accosting men? Do you ever meet a woman and worry she'll have her way with you against your will? I have been aware of this dynamic since being a toddler, having started out in a city. But I've also been in midwestern towns and now living in Texas I am more aware than ever of my precarious position in towns small and large. And it's not just men w/out a badge that are suspect and it's not without cause for concern. Women are preyed upon in this country and we have a number of prime examples of toxic masculinity in the nominations now which makes it a little bit hard to cheer on 'men' in a positive way. Yes, there are some wonderful men out there, but one bad apple and the whole barrel goes kind of thing. So how is it you think women are trying to dominate men? Were you asleep in class? One of the roles of the 'Divine Masculine' is to protect women. Is that being done? Who fell down on that job? How can women change how 'men' present themselves? And why would it be the role of the woman to do that? This is sounding very 'Eve corrupted Adam' kind of thing, but/so it's her fault he couldn't control himself. (? so he's off the hook for his own behavior but she's not off the hook for his behavior? blame and responsibility. I'm sure you see plenty of this if you're active in the Criminal Justice system.) Have a read of "Beautiful People Have More Daughters " particularly the chapter about absentee fathers. And then maybe figure out how to promote the good guys so the women you're blaming for dominating you can see them in a better light, instead of the light cast by the likes of Hegseth, Gaetz, Musk, Stone, Epstein, and Trump.
Wanting equality is not the same as wanting to dominate. When women want equality, men think they are trying to dominate them. I’m sorry, but you are blaming the victims. What percentage of congress or govt is held by women? 50%??? nope. (Actually 51% would be representative of the population) It’s only A tiny fraction. And men call it “women taking over” when we gain like 16 seats in government in one election cycle. I appreciate your desire for equality between the sexes. I truly want that too. But until you acknowledge that women are still vastly under-represented in our government, we haven’t even started the conversation.
Growing up in Los Angeles, we understood that the migration of Black folks was, in a way, needed for the war effort in WW2. Soon after that, those jobs dried up and the factories went shut. This was in the 50's and 60's. Yet, no one talks about the decimation of the black middle class and how it led to riots and despair. Same thing, drugs enter the minority neighborhoods, draconian crime bills are passed. White folks fall in the opioid epidemic, and oh, no one is listening to their pain! Please, deal with class and race openly for once, why don't you?
It would be interesting for Ms. Hochschild to do the same kind of research in upper Santa Clara County (home of Stanford)/San Mateo County California in the deepest blue parts of America, just south of San Francisco. Why are these poor liberal people so ignorant about what is really going on? Why do their policies cause so much blatant homelessness and misery. Why are liberal policies causing so many deaths due to substance abuse. Why are thousands living in tents with no purpose in live other than just to survive through the day. Why are beautiful public areas in the Bay Area and LA County desecrated by human being who use public areas as bathrooms. Why are so many people dying in the richest parts of America in these liberal bastions ? Arlie doesn't need to get on a plane to study the causes of homeless in San Francisco and Santa Clara County and how failed liberal policies caused this misery. Why are supposedly well educated liberals in such denial about the human misery they are causing ?
@@ohhs7830 I don't agree that liberals are causing these problems but greed and income disparity are part of the reason. Drug addiction doesn't discriminate. It has more to do with genes interacting with shame and abuse. No easy answers here but we live in a world with plenty of resources if we can find a way to get them where they are needed. Buying overpriced gold watches and trinkets won't get us to a better place any more than beads and metal objects did much for native people.
The Old Regular Baptists, a Christian denomination in the East Kentucky coalfields (including Pike County) still sing these Isaac Watts lyrics to the "Amazing Grace" tune: ====== I'm not ashamed to own my Lord, or to defend his cause, maintain the honor of his Word, the glory of his cross.
As insightful as many of these social observations are, I have to wonder about their fundamental value in the absence of thorough personal evaluations. After all, when individuals are in and of themselves disunited and dysfunctional, any artificial social improvements are bound to be transitory at best. Or from another viewpoint, how is it to be expected that directly addressing the widely acknowledged decline of social and political institutions will of itself heal individuals? Certainly sick people can get better -- but not if they don't for themselves believe it is possible. Tell me how you saw this for yourself.
Actually thinking about the people I know and surrounded me… they are more middle class ( lower) work jobs make $$$ but spend spend spend. Their values are different. They just see increases in the last 4 years….as a result of Covid and corporate greed.
My mother who grew up in Texas to signs that shouted "No Negroes, No Dogs, No Mexicans, No Jews" was a 3rd Generation American of Mexican, Indigenous, European, and African descent who was never afforded or privileged enough to be proud, or even to be treated equally as other Americans --- women weren't even allowed to get loans for business/homes, have rights to their children in a divorce or rights to credit cards until the mid-70s. Really? What pride was she afforded? None. She was made to feel that she was nothing and not caucasian enough to be equal. listened to, cared about, valued or part of the Liberty and Justice for All...and still the Americans of Latina/o, Indigenous, African, Asian descent face the same chasm of inclusion ...several hundred years before those (caucasians) immigrating here from Europe. Historically.
I am educated and think educated individuals often lack critical thinking skills and depend on others to do their thinking for them. I understand people blaming those running the command economy for their economic situation.
Did the author also explore the impact of religious thinking on these populations? Christianity, in particular, often carries a strong element of shame, reflected in common responses like, “Better than I deserve!” when asked, “How are you?” The influence of religion on personal identity-and how politicians have skillfully exploited these dynamics-deserves serious consideration.
The lack of education & literacy within America's citizens is unacceptable. It is deliberate, calculated & controlling. A child in a small town is just as deserving as the child in the big city to ysving a primary & secondary education. This would empower ppl more.
Education in big cities is a lot of times much worse than small towns... it comes down to the wealth of the district primarily, and there's no shortage of poor districts in cities.
People should not have babies if they can’t provide them with a decent life. I was broke most of my childbearing years and consciously made the decision I couldn’t do it.
@@AvsFan32America is a diverse place. Most people in poor parts of the country never talk about birth control or STIs, especially if religion is a big part of the community. Consider yourself lucky that you had the knowledge you did because many people don't.
@@AvsFan32 wise decision and only possible since women have control over their bodies. That precludes living for the sake of other people and being a slave. There are many who voted fo
@@bcbeastersEducation in poor parts of the country, whether rural or inner city is equally dismal. The difference is that poor rural schools lack the violence often found in poor inner city schools, but both struggle with having updated books for kids and working HVAC systems, etc.
Another very important interview with important information about a little known aspect of America.
Couric is an interviewer par excellence.
“Little known” to you, maybe.
@ of course it was unknown to me.
So if you know about it, post it so that I can learn more. 😉
Couric was caught editing responses to questions to paint people/groups she doesn't agree in a bad light.
I really appreciate this video and I fully agree with the entirety of its content. I have an extra concern to top it all off, and that is of a potential another health related crisis. I am an ICU nurse who cared for COVID patients. I work in a large hospital and we saw the sickest of the sick. It is so frustrating to me when the severity of the pandemic is completely dismissed. The heath care system was on the brink of collapse and there was a great deal of collateral damage that was suffered by the mishandling of the pandemic by the Trump administration and the disinformation. We had 3 extra units open. The Navy had to come in and help us. When the vaccines were released the ones who died were overwhelmingly unvaccinated. We were being threatened with violence and the care we were providing patients was obstructed by families who did not trust us. Many of the unvaccinated patients we cared for were MAGA anti-vaxxers and their families made our lives hell. We ran out of gowns and masks. We had to reuse N95s for days. I will never forget the day when a respiratory therapist told me we were down to 1 ventilator and the dark laugh we shared wondering what would happen. The amount of nurses who quit working bedside is staggering. Anyone who worked in direct patient care during the COVID pandemic has some level of PTSD. Hospital systems have found that nurses can do more with less, when pressed, and now that is the standard. Trump and MAGA ideology has had a devastating impact on the heath care system and cannot be understated. The lesson I have learned from Trump's win is that if you tell a lie over and over and over and over again, it becomes the truth. That is exactly what he did and it worked.”100
What you said is so true. And they don't believe that that man is in it for himself ONLY. He shows it to us daily. There's no way I would stick my name/neck out for him. He will cause you misery and create legal bills for you. It's amazing how people will vote against their own interests.
Thank you for this comment. How quickly we forget the pandemic. Maybe because we want to? I’m not sure but what the health care folks and America went through was a nightmare. T was a terrible leader during that crises and yet he has been rewarded with another term in office. I’m very angry about that. President Biden came in and did the best he could to clean up the mess with no gratitude from the American people. I will never understand the MAGA movement or their relentless acceptance of the poor leadership of T.
Great points. In my opinion, I feel that about half of pro Trump supporters are people who like him because of who he purports to hate, and they believe his lies that they will take care of these “problematic immigrants.” In reality, you and I both know Trump does not care about immigrants. In fact, he sees them as useful low wage tools for businesses who don’t want to pay taxes (Republican owned to be sure). Republicans are good at creating the problems and then turning around and promising to be the fix. Right wing media does it too. Fear works as a means of control. The funny thing is crime has actually been going down, and border crossings are actually lower under Biden. But right wing media will lie, spin, or omit this truth.
Hear hear, I fully agree with you and have felt the same thoughts. It’s about hate and fear. Look at maga’s top issues: they hate immigrants and an open border. So rightwing politicians promise to fix it but in reality they don’t fix anything, they voted down that comprehensive border deal. But it’s about creating fear and hate in the party. Once they get you w hate they will promise to be the one to take care of it for you. But they don’t. And the fear they created via right wing media, pod casts etc is based on lies bc we need immigrants in our labor force, and for our SS and Medicare bc they pay into it via taxes but don’t receive federal benefits back. And finally immigrants commit less crime than US citizens. Immigrants are not the enemy in fact it’s Republicans -their own leaders , who are the enemies. These culture wars are distractions. If republicans cared about kids they would help democrats with sensible gun reform since guns are the leading causes of child deaths.
I really appreciate your comment (and the responses so far to your comment) and feel so bad for what you went through 😔. It's madness when you're trying to help everyone including the very people who were bashing you. I share your concerns.
Thank you for this insightful and compassionate discussion. Hurray for Professor Hochschild!
This is such an integral part of us understanding as a country cause and effect. Too often in the present day we rant and rail about the effects while simultaneously ignoring (sometime blatantly) the cause/s that have led to these effects before us. Thank you for this discussion!
There seem to be some paradoxical ideas in this discussion. On the one hand, we are told that individualistic "red-voting" people blame themselves for their poor circumstances and feel shame as a result, but at the same time we are told that these people are lashing out at traditional institutions because they blame the failures of those institutions for their situation. As I understand it, the paradox is resolved by recognizing that the initial shame has been transformed into generalized anger, largely as a result of cultural elites pushing even more shame on them. That makes sense to me, but if this is right, I think it is important to realize that this means those red voters have basically moved 180 degrees from the principle of personal responsibility that they started from. Now everything wrong with their lives is the fault of the government, the "elites", the media, big pharma, you name it. They've gone from one untenable extreme view to another. I'm not sure why it is so hard for so many people to accept a moderate position where individual choices and social circumstances both play important roles in shaping how we end up.
Your analysis was way better than hers, which as you pointed out was self-contradictory
A very insightful comment. It got me thinking about how shame might turn to anger and rage, and then about how that change might cause a change from blaming oneself to blaming the government. Here is what I came up with. One feels shame when something bad happens to only to you, or to you and a few people around you. But when you see it happening to many people in your county, state or region, you start to think "this isn't really my fault". That raises the question of who is at fault.
Even if capable, not everyone can get to the top just because the structure of the workforce is pyramidal. Who's gonna pick fruit, clean the office, etc...?
Also, I left a midwestern state in the late 80's with the minimum wage at $3.50, now it is at $7.50. In state tuition went x8 and rents well, I dont know but... . Let's not mention the cost of fresh food.
Coming from a strong union family I know the difference between pride in jobs and wages vs corporate greed that belittles the worker. Cheap product vs good wages must be discussed. Good conversation.
thank you Katie Couric and Arlie Hochschild for this very inciteful, emotionally sensitive and illuminating interview. I plan to buy both of Hochschild's books and I hope that I can become a better listener.
Thank you very much for inviting Arlie!!! Such wisdom!!!
In Poland the situation is the same. Two tribes, speaking different languages
I will buy the book and read it!!!
Long live sociology!!!
Lovya guys :)))))))
FYI, Ms. Hochschild is 84 years old. She's not done yet, and she has a lot to say. Such a great lesson to us all.
Wow! If I can function 50% as well at 84 I'll be overjoyed!
@@jlvandat69I know people her age and older that function at a much higher level than her. She has a difficult time speaking and getting her thoughts out… my older friends don’t. She is too slow and difficult for me to listen to. And I found her extremely boring, with nothing profound to say.
@@jeremyway-ue1xq I thought she was very articulate and I found her thoughts to be very interesting. Perhaps you are used to social media spewing out thoughts at a rapid pace without going in any depth. It might be a you problem not an Ms. Hochschild problem.
omg, Arlie is brilliant. tyvm for this excellent conversation. she brought up view points and issues i was not aware of or considered. my god, we have been failing in so many different ways, its almost impossible to point fingers. since all sides are feeling the same offences of the other. the hate bonding and fear mongering against our society, is really having its moment, amidst perceptions of moral compass swaying with philosophical ideology influences.
we are a hot mess.
"since all sides are feeling the same offences of the other" -- Um -- what does this even mean? That right - wing fascists and those who want to empower them are mean, sadistic, hierarchically-obsessed people -- but we shouldn't say so ...? Because people on the left who vote for democracy want healthcare for everyone, and not just White people?
Thank you Katie for bringing us thought-provoking perspectives. This discussion has caused me to reflect on my own "elitist" attitudes.
The concern is the disconnect from reality. A friend of ours is a nurse. Her family lives in an Appalachian trailer park. In 2015, they believed Donald Trump was literally going to arrive and hand them cash. Convinced. Who can find common ground with that reality disconnect.
democrats have been in power for 12 of the last 16 years in america if they were doing such a great job they would have won the election this year
I knew lots of democrats that actually thought that Trump was going to throw all the journalists that didn't support him in jail and that they were going to be arrested if they didn't vote for him. Convinced. Who can find common ground with that reality disconnect?
My Trump voting mother has Fox on 24/7. She started her own company (a family business we all worked in) which has been very successful, she’s traveled the world, and lived upper middle class in her adulthood. One day she says to me “I found out they’re using abortion as a form of contraception. They don’t even use contraception and just go get multiple abortions. It’s wrong and abortion needs to stop!” There was silence as I tried to figure out how to remind her of her own experience with abortion. “Mom, your daughters (my two older sisters) got abortions when they really needed one and they didn’t abuse the procedure.” She looked shocked like she couldn’t reconcile her experiences with what Fox was telling her to believe. It’s all really sad. My mom has become an angry shell of her former self.
Thank you so very much Katie for this episode! This information and insight made me open my eyes to another side of this dilemma we are in. My mind was closed because I was never exposed to this side of America. Knowing how a person personally feels about their lives and how helpless and lost they must feel literally broke my heart. I welled up inside and I began to cry for these people. I cannot imagine how this feels. I am a gay man but I have also lived in a city environment my entire life (Grew up in Philadelphia, now in the Ft Lauderdale area), although I have dealt with hate to a degree but never have I dealt with the feeling of failure and helplessness in not being able to provide. Again, thank you. You literally made me a new person. Bless you!💝💕
You don't improve on "feeling helpless and lost" by voting for someone to crap on people who don't look like you. What does this even mean? That fascists and those who want to empower them are mean, sadistic, hierarchically-obsessed people -- but we shouldn't say so ...?
Agree with you, but can this despair somehow lead to unacceptance of the LGBTQ community? Could they feel that too much attention was paid to our rights? If it's us vs. them it will hurt so many people and this nation. And isn't there some diversity in those communities too? I find this all so upsetting and threatening.
I completely agree. I’m not sure how any of that can be fixed because it always seems like some sect of society is left out. If the founding fathers did this experiment right from the beginning by living by the principle that All are created equal we wouldn’t be in the situation where anyone would have to fight for their rights. What is sad is that we had groups of people who fought for these rights and all of that seems in vane because instead of progressing we are regressing. That is the hardest for me to comprehend when people are all of a sudden against progressing. It puzzles me because I think, “These people enjoy modern conveniences yet they condemn people for wanting society to progress.” 🤔🤔💭💭
Ihavebeen waiting for some academic to get to the bottom of this. Just heartbreakingly brilliant. What an remarkable woman. Thank you for this interview
The American electorate is incredibly fickle and constantly evolving. I don't think anyone will be able to make sense of how people vote from one election to the next.
It can be hard to make sense of but being an incumbent, for starters, is a negative because of the constant need for change. (A trend, I believe, that's worldwide.) Now, Trump was president so where's the change? Well, he was able to manipulate people's memories of the way things were under his presidency, reminding us of how wonderful things were, which was not the case.
There certainly are complexities to each election cycle.
Americans have short memories and always vote ‘at the moment.’ George Bush 41 was at 90% approval rating in 1991 after we won the 1st Gulf War. One year later and a recession caused high unemployment, he lost to Clinton only getting 38%.
Just think of issues like Covid lockdowns, Jan 6, even abortion, all issues that were big in 2020 and 2022. They all took a backseat to inflation and high grocery bills.
That’s why i think both parties doing these autopsies when they lose is sort of overanalyzing things. When the economy is bad, the party is power is held accountable, plain and simple. Once Harris did not distance herself from Biden, she was essentially an incumbent who presided under high inflation.
Now there is a party shift with working class going to the Republicans and college educated suburbs going to Democrats. That’s structural, but elections are still driven by those independents voting on ‘what have you done for me lately.’
Yes -- and the American electorate DOES NOT reflect the entirety of our American populace -- especially when it comes to ALL Women Equally. ERA?
Excellent conversation, and appreciated. The nation is scrambling for answers, and rightly so. November 5th was a magnitude 9.0 earthquake and the aftershocks are far from over. America just elected a person with attributes diametrically-opposed to democracy, the Rule of Law, and common decency. Simply unimaginable. I agree with most every point; the causes are many and complex. However, throughout the conversation I kept grasping for "actionable measures", i.e., specific, viable, effective actions that would shift MAGA affection away from a charismatic, divisive, narcissistic leader and towards the values we used to admire in a President......honesty, integrity, a desire for unity and competency. There was mention of the need for greater social interaction and the loss of many institutions which used to provide regular gatherings. But reversing such trends seems impossible, like putting the genie back in the bottle. The new "church" or union hall is social media. And social media is packed with disinformation and misinformation that is not being called out as it would in a public meeting. Instead, it's being amplified and propagated, causing large numbers to exist in the bubble of their choice. If we are going to revive democracy, step #1 needs to be the reduction of false information distributed via social media and the internet. It will be an enormous effort, and not without controversy. And we need to be nicer to each other.....less shaming and blaming and more decency and understanding. Very difficult days ahead.
What are we going to do? Do we go back to sticks and stones so men can beat their chests and feel strong and needed? Women worked so hard in the 50's, 60's and 70's not to mention the early 1900's and the centuries before when babies came every 2 or 3 years wanted or not. Do we give back our hard fought desire to be seen and appreciated? F...g men need to get a grip and evolve a bit. I agree that they have a problem and discomfort in this world but we all have difficulty with the rate of change and perhaps Elon Musk is right. Men need a new frontier. This sense of grievance is so toxic. I do not fully understand this sense that the only way to feel happy with one's status is to beat other people down. Do we as biological beings need to scramble for control and seek the light at the top of the pile of humanity? I have been happy just to not be in the lower 10 percent who would get crushed. I wish I had more compassion. I live in a MAGA neighborhood and do not know how to respond effectively. My neighbors all appear very capable and financially independent. They often raise their own grandchildren when drugs are a problem. They care for their aging parents. At the same time they give no credit to the government for those Social Security checks. I am trying to listen but am scared to death of the depth of misinformation and lack patience.
It’s not social media packed with disinformation but the mainstream media. The legacy media of the big Networks who outright lie and gaslight the public.
When the Hunter Biden laptop story was leaked 4 years ago by the NYPost they got censored by Twitter (not X at the time). Anyone who posted the story got deleted and censored. The mainstream media never even reported it until it got so big it couldn’t be ignored.
Please look at both sides.
As a former liberal it still shocks me when people say Trump is against law and order.. and in the next breath 'catch and release' is ok. That's why I'm leaning red. The hypocrisy.
Well said
Very insightful comments. Thank you. I wonder too: how do you reverse the trends? I'm fighting hopelessness.
A very illuminating conversation. Professor Hochschild's books should be required reading. Thank you Katie.
Katie, thank you for sharing this informative conversation with Miss Arlie. She brings up many points that I’d never thought of before.
listening to Ms Hochschild took me back to my friend Judy. She even used some of the same gestures to make her points. This was the best conversation on this topic I have heard so far. I can see why people confided in her. I saw problems with the Democratic campaign. i even wrote to them about it--everything was Middle Class. The pollsters separating out the college educated voters from the others. I have an Associate Degree from a technical college. It makes me angry that it is assumed I am not intelligent enough to see how bad the other candidate is because I didn't graduate from a 4-year college. Democrats have to change course.
So true. Democratic elites love to play us and them politics. It’s so frustrating
Katie is doing some great interviews, loving this channel!
Katie is one of a kind. We are lucky to have her!
@@DonreparD and you are here why?
@DonreparD curious as to why you thought this interview sucked?
This has to be her best interview to date. It is stunning.
Wow… have been seeing this on the ground for the past 6 years… Arlie, so so clearly articulated in the most gentle, yet direct, way i have ever heard!
A deep state operative
Great interivew, so insightful. Thank you for undertaking the task of trying to understand how the western world can once again entertain the thought of sincere, honest and non-judgmental conversations in order to live in a more just and peaceful world.
We live too much in a just world.
Trump invited them to cast aside their shame and let their freak flags fly.
This interview has had a profound impact on me (almost spiritual)! The skills set
Arlie is using would be important in getting real political cooperation between between people to take place. I feel real hope.
Lady is 100%,I lived in the deep South,from San Fransisco ,she right..
I get that. I moved from the City to Dallas and lived there for 20 years. What she says is brilliant. I could sense the shame in Texans and anxiety too. She puts the pieces together and it makes sense on a deeper level than I’ve heard before.
You are answering a lot of questions people I know are asking. I think you really have something here.
Thank you for an excellent interview.
I spent the better part of yesterday reading Stolen Pride after listening to this interview. It's quite a page-turner, and it's a great gift to be able to learn about this community. The honesty of some of the interviewees is breathtaking. I have earnestly struggled for a couple of years now to understand the appeal of T**** to people like the ones in her book, and the notion that basically he sees and accepts them (despite the fact that ultimately I can't see that he'll do anything but hurt them further with his policies and actions) does make a horrifying kind of sense, at least at an emotional level. The concept of "he's a bully but he's our bully" espoused by basically very good people haunts me. I would highly recommend an additional book: David Brooks' recent How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen.
These people have been shat upon for decades as the elites have shipped off the jobs that gave them a decent living and dignified lives. And then mocked for their poverty and "backwardness" by those same elites who control EVERYTHING. Remember "bitter clingers" and "deplorables?" And then vilified for opposing massive waves of illegal immigrants flooding their towns and taking their services? How on earth these people can't get this is boggling. Trump is the only politician who says "I hear you and understand you, and I will put YOU first for a change."
His policies helped in the first term. Biden turned back the clock and made things worse. No reason to think Trump will make country better. You need to listen that's why you lost the election.
Thanks for this discussion, have been thinking about this often lately.
Probably the best interview I've seen in a long time. Explains so much! Now, will people listen?
Thank you, Katie and Dr. Rochschild, for giving us some hope. Understanding the emotional issues of others can encourage empathy and reengagement, which could hopefully start conversations that could solve important issues for us all.
We are dancing around the Karpman Drama Triangle together (Victim/Persecutor/Rescuer) - locked in by our instinctual defensiveness. I think one of the most important lessons of this interview: We need to Learn to Take our Alarm System offline and LISTEN to find common ground. Get Curious & find solutions together. Empower each other.
@@Fr332BM32-w 💯
This is so needed.
Great conversation! I want to read her book.
What a wonderfully insightful presentation of what is going on with men who are blue collar or work in skilled trades. Thank you. My mother's ancestors moved from NC to Ky. Her parents moved from Ky to In. Her father was a farmer. He escaped poverty by moving to and purchasing arable land. I grew up in small towns in Indiana. I know how blue collar men think because I was raised around them and by a blue collar Dad who was an alcoholic. They feel ashamed if they cannot provide for their family. I think often they believe their wives should not have to work outside the home. Many have not been able to adapt to the changes in industry due to automation and the shift from fossil to sustainable energy systems. The industrial economic systems did not care about anything but profit, not the workers.
The author James Baldwin would have a field day with this conversation.
RIGHT?
It’s hard not to think that there is some sense of entitlement going on here with white men too. The system has hurt women too, especially women. Especially single mothers, especially women of color and yet women seem to take it much more maturely then men. And keep fighting, raising their children, and going to school to better themselves and their communities.
Katie, you're a great journalist and a kind caring person. You said you're very solution-oriented. Why did you wait until your last question to ask about solutions? Perhaps something to consider going forward. Thanks.
What a compelling interview. I saw that it was almost an hour long and I really didn't want to take the time. But the author kept giving so many interesting responses to Katie's great questions, I happily listened to it all. It really opened my mind and heart to a little better understanding of my not being able to understand how so many in dire circumstances could vote for trump. Professor Hochschild is not only brilliant but a most compassionate person. I am a native New Yorker (NYC) and so I was blessed to grow up in a multicultural city. Manhattan is also a tough town as well as a town that has so much culture and as Sinatra sang, "If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere...". With that being said, I believe there is an arrogance that is in our DNA similar to the discussion about denial and not being aware of it, I believe it the same for NY arrogance. I think for us, multicultural is not a problem, but looking down on and judging folks in Appalachia is! I know that is true for me. Poor in NYC is different that poor in other states. So thank you both for this wake up call.
Agreed completely! If you’re interested in diving deeper into this, another great sociological take on the motivation behind why people voted for Trump (with a focus on rural working class folk and farmers) is Sarah Smarsh’s interview with John Stewart. Smarsh is an author and academic from Kansas, and I believe she has a fantastic grasp on identifying some of the core issues at the root of why such people tend to vote Republican/Trump. That interview definitely opened up my mind as well- very illuminating stuff.
Amazing. Thank you for sharing
Loved this! This was fascinating and eye-opening. Thanks Arlie Hochschild ❤
Those empathy bridges MUST come from both sides. We are all AMERICANS. United we are one, divided we fall.
The wealthy have squeezed the resources out of public schools, while sending their own children to private schemes. Actual merit based public school promotions have been replaced by advancing students with their age groups. We are becoming an oligarchical monarchy - with a strong assist from kleptocracy. Our country was founded on the idea that no man is above the law. Our Supreme Court just put the president above that founding premie. I’m obviously an OG, & I fear for the future so this country. Yes, my generation DEFINITELY played its part in the decline. I hope the younger folks can pull us out of this downward spiral.
Great insightful interview. Professor Hochschild comes across as such a gentle soul, desperately trying to understand a social problem. I am in awe of her work, I think I am starting to understand because I am one of those who said, who are those clowns who vote for you know who :)
A friend’s careers included consulting to executives at the top of industry and government. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. One of his sons dropped out of college while the other graduated into a socioeconomic wasteland. Both, despite big hearts, brilliance, and talent, now in their 40s, “gave up” on America. They and their father are appalled by the aggressively self-destructive transactionalism of society. All have built and retreated to small oases of compassion in the expanding desert of America’s mercenary narcissism and despair. The irony of defensive isolation in a world where anyone is only a few clicks away is not lost on them
Wonderful interview - thank you
They aren't frightened. They are pissed off.
How about you come up with a charismatic leader in the democratic side that doesn’t ignore the working class.
The rate of ads on this video makes this unwatchable.
Fascinating discussion. More female professors please.👍🏼🎖️🙏🏼
Female profs is the problem.
As a psychologist trying to understand wtf happened, this may be the first explanation of many explanations that really makes sense to me. Shame is the most powerful and painful emotion, people will do anything to avoid feeling shame and when they do feel it, it can feel like dying. Still, I’m not sure how we move forward.
I'm glad i made it through this interview, as this was an important discussion. While I agree that poor and working class white people have been left behind, I feel that many of the people Arlie interviewed have habits that make it hard to be sympathetic toward them, as they seem to have a victim mentality. Instead of banding together with other groups dealing with classism and discrimination, rural white working-class and poor people seem to be about revenge and remaining separate. Also, why is it that Democrats always have to be the good guys? Republicans openly hate and mock these people, yet even before Trump, they consistently voted for Republicans. I'm not saying that Democrats wouldn’t benefit from acknowledging that being white doesn't mean you don't suffer from poverty or have barriers to living a comfortable life, just that it's a little disingenious to act as if this group doesn't consistently vote against their own interests or aren't so willing to be rescued by a savior that they voted twice for a known conman.
Yes, the victim mentality is why they identify with him. As a political scientist advised me, over twenty years ago, “Never underestimate the ability of a Republican to play victim.”.
Republicans made them believe that because they were white they were "better" than the "other" despite them not living better. Whose fault is that? Their own hatred against POC left them behind rather than banding together with POC to fight the injustices produced by corporate greed. They blame DEI which in fact would help them because diversity includes white women and poor white and black people (diversity in socioeconomics). But they didn't want to associate with POC and this is the result of white supremacy.
How does just pointing to the “victim” and redistributing other people wealth make democrats “good guys”?
Good guys are people offering their own money, effort, time to help those in need, because only personal involvement, sacrifice make you a good guy.
Very often democrats play the role of “devouring mother” to gain self aggrandizing and virtue signaling which comes off as conceited patronizing.
That’s my thoughts on blind spots of democrats after experiencing both being a democrat and a republican.
Beautifully put. Thank you.
@HeadinVat Thank you.
This lady is one of the more important social scientists of our lifetime . So glad she took this on
Great interview! Thanks!
Magnificent guest and host. So important to learn from other people and lifestyles. Most times I think we tend to take life for granted until we hear other people’s stories.
She talked of one subgroup, of which there are many, who voted Red to express their grievances, desires, or beliefs about where they want the country to move to. For the people she spoke with and learned from the Democrats need to suck it up apologize and ask for forgiveness before running in to their communities with how they can fix things.
Wait until the Education System become a Capitalized Education. Sad.
How could Joe Six-Pack admire Trump? Because he lives life exactly how he would if he was handed billions of dollars.
Amazing and interesting and intriguing. Thank you katy!❤
A lot to think about here. But my conversations with conservatives never result in a "softening" of their positions or rhetoric. They want to convince me that they are right and I am wrong.
Open borders and neutering little boys is wrong!
Goes both ways.
Not in my experience
you are not going to convince a conservative that neutering little boys is OK
Definitely agree that the Democratic Party talks about degree and non degree status way too much
Thank you both for this conversation. I agree that this cycle of or spiral of shame is important for us to understand. It is like a totem poll of oppression. We need to figure out how to call out bullying behavior in a public arena w/o shaming. And be careful not to blame the victim. Ultimately, oppression is never good and finding our way out of the many ways we humans oppress others is key for any healthy society IMHO. "Masterless Men: Poor Whites and Slavery in the Antebellum South (Cambridge Studies on the American South)" by Keri Leigh Merritt is another great resource about this phenomenon.
I've never heard it explained in this way. I get it
I’ve always believed we are more alike than different, until this election. I will try my best to listen with an open mind, but I’m skeptical. I hope this can bring me back around again.
False pride and false guilt walk hand in hand, in my experience.
I should have known better watching a Katie Couric interview!
I’m a 70 year old, retired mechanic leaving in Southern California. I never did very well in school very poor reader in speller, but I think I can fix anything so I made a good living.
I think the Democratic Party and the liberals within it have gotten too close to the leftists in our country people to believe in social marxism.
Liberals tend to have more in common with conservatives in leftists, but they have felt pray to them.
I didn't understand and I get it now. Thank you for this wonderful interview.🇨🇦 I feel so much for the right, I will share.
Arlie is great!
Thinking about the loneliness situation it can only be magnified when one is limited in their financial situation. I can’t be part of community if I don’t have money. Usually you have to have money to join or participate in the events.
I need to understand why these men don’t blame the very corporations that pulled their businesses out of the community? I can’t understand why they don’t want to move, it’s family and once you’re poor you can’t afford to move.
Last question why do they always blame everyone else and what would you say the left has to do to win them back?
For your last question, I think she talked a bit about this at the end. Don't shut out Trump voters, meet conservatives (especially those in rural areas) face to face, which Democrats tend to do, and focus on what they connect on -- renewable energy, manufacturing jobs, women's healthcare. Also, I found that her new book is available at my local library, so I'm going to pick it up today!
@@linguaphile42 True for maybe some of the younger generation. But where I’ve spent my last 45 years (red oil country) we’re talking long since retired folks who are well off, who are addicted to the rage engage of fox pundits. They’re the ones who treat politics as if it was the WWE. As for the younger folk who identify with him, it’s because they want to be like him and be able to verbally assault women & all other minorities without repercussions… canceled.
And, as a young comedian pointed out recently, no one stayed cancelled. They went underground for a few months, to return unscathed.
@@sunshine3914 She was specifically talking about the Appalachian folks she had met and interviewed, I think. You're right -- Trump voters are not a monolith, just like Harris voters aren't.
it IS ABSOLUTELY ALL, ENTIRELY about appealing to EMOTIONS and naming a SCAPEGOAT.
ABSOLUTELY.
FOR SURE.
Lack of community combined w misinformation and we fall victims to irresponsible irrational behavior
you have to stop assuming that people are so misinformed when people see high prices at the grocery store and millions of illegal immigrants all across america that are given free healthcare, food, housing and transportation while some of the people in our military are struggling with homelessness comments like that are a reason why people like me voted for donald trump this election after supporting the democrats since i was 18 years old
If people can suspend judgement of people they disagree with and try to find common ground instead of trying to win the argument or prove their superior we would be better off as a country. Empathy vs Ego.
I agree with Arlie's presence and would say that the US has been here before. If we learn from our history, we see that we were once actually very creative in how we addressed the issue of shame, loss, and loss of pride by empowering and investing in rural America. The best example of this was through the creation of land-grant universities. It behooves us to revisit why we established those institutions and how successful they were in boosting the standing of rural America. They, in turn, created a sense of belonging and pride in their communities. Oh, and ever notice how in red states, the "blue dots" are always university towns even to this day? It's time for some more of this systemic rural investment.
The wealth inequality in America is currently worse than the Gilded Age... and it's by design after almost 50 years straight of right-wing economic policy...
There is currently, through Biden's legislation, historic investment in rural areas, including bringing broadband to places that never had it, and putting new manufacturing in some of the poorer communities. Trump will probably take credit for it as it unrolls. That's the frustrating thing about the cycle of a four-year term -- it takes more than that to feel the good effects of a president's policies.
...and I want to be careful in saying that higher education is not the only mode of institutional investment to consider. It's just an example. Other ideas could be VoTech (CTE) investments, corporate-apprenticeships, etc. The Democrate toyed with these ideas, but they were not put forward with the same level of gusto as other policies that might appeal to coastal and urban folks.
@@linguaphile42 Zero new homes have got broadband as a result of that initiative.
People feeling shame turned to the one that has no shame.
Some amazing insight here.
Great conversation
Great interview.
Love your podcast Katie
We need more people that investigate the real issues instead of casting away the other side as .
Katie, a brilliant choice and execution of this meaningful interview. And, thank you Ms. Hochschild for your in-depth study and writings.
I’m a right-wing mechanical engineer. Like a lot of men (I believe) I’m 90% logical and 10% emotional.
When a leader gives an emotional argument disguised with logic, I don’t even notice I’ve been swayed by emotion.
When somebody comes to me with an emotional based argument, I listen looking only for logic and dismiss the emotional appeal.
When I heard that men need to be approached with empathy, I partly agree.
- To appeal to a right wing man, first ask questions. He will feel heard and understood. Then ask more questions. Then he will be open to examine the ‘emotions’ of his views.
Why do these angry people persist in voting against their own interests?
Who are you to decide what others’ interests are? Please keep up this kind of arrogance and hubris. It certainly worked out for you in the last election.
That was what the interview was about. The interview literally gives one answer to your question.
My interst is what President Trump and Republicans stand for! Third time proudly voting for him
This was excellent.
I understand what the theory is, I agree men, especially blue collar white men, have a problem with shame. I may have missed it, but I didn’t hear anything about religion, probably the #1 cause of shame 😐 and I don’t think it can be ignored in a discussion about trump’s second win and how he used it. I believe anger is what elected trump, he recognized hatred, in all its personas, and ran on it. Simple divide and conquer 🤷🏼♀️
I have two degrees in Sociology and Criminal Justice and live in Berkeley. I grew up on a farm in the Midwest.
This is about a failure to respect the Masculine’s contributions to society for the past several thousand years and ongoing. Electricity, plumbing, vehicles, house building/repair. Farming. Gas/Oil. Etc.
The world is created by the inventions and the works, daily, by masculine men.
And we get treated like trash and don’t even get the basics of what we were promised by society. No matter how good we are, no matter how hard we work.
Masculine and Feminine are meant to live in sacred harmony, families, Love.
Until this is corrected, and women see more clearly how many more good men there are than bad (who we also have to look out for and protect society from) and correct their ideological error, it’s just going to get more divided.
Why would men cooperate with you if you’re trying to dominate them and refuse to offer a fair social trade? Do you WANT Handmaids Tale to happen? Like seriously wake up! 😂
Since you have two degrees in Sociology and Criminal Justice and live in Berkeley, you would then be aware that any time a woman meets a man she has the existential question to answer of whether or not this man is a physical danger to her, yes/no? I mean, how many women are physically accosting men? Do you ever meet a woman and worry she'll have her way with you against your will?
I have been aware of this dynamic since being a toddler, having started out in a city. But I've also been in midwestern towns and now living in Texas I am more aware than ever of my precarious position in towns small and large. And it's not just men w/out a badge that are suspect and it's not without cause for concern.
Women are preyed upon in this country and we have a number of prime examples of toxic masculinity in the nominations now which makes it a little bit hard to cheer on 'men' in a positive way.
Yes, there are some wonderful men out there, but one bad apple and the whole barrel goes kind of thing.
So how is it you think women are trying to dominate men? Were you asleep in class?
One of the roles of the 'Divine Masculine' is to protect women. Is that being done? Who fell down on that job? How can women change how 'men' present themselves? And why would it be the role of the woman to do that?
This is sounding very 'Eve corrupted Adam' kind of thing, but/so it's her fault he couldn't control himself. (? so he's off the hook for his own behavior but she's not off the hook for his behavior? blame and responsibility. I'm sure you see plenty of this if you're active in the Criminal Justice system.)
Have a read of "Beautiful People Have More Daughters " particularly the chapter about absentee fathers.
And then maybe figure out how to promote the good guys so the women you're blaming for dominating you can see them in a better light, instead of the light cast by the likes of Hegseth, Gaetz, Musk, Stone, Epstein, and Trump.
Oh -- and I would also suggest you figure out how to get men from falling for the b.s. from other men. they enslave themselves.
Your ideology about your masculinity is disgusting!
Wanting equality is not the same as wanting to dominate. When women want equality, men think they are trying to dominate them. I’m sorry, but you are blaming the victims. What percentage of congress or govt is held by women? 50%??? nope. (Actually 51% would be representative of the population) It’s only A tiny fraction. And men call it “women taking over” when we gain like 16 seats in government in one election cycle.
I appreciate your desire for equality between the sexes. I truly want that too. But until you acknowledge that women are still vastly under-represented in our government, we haven’t even started the conversation.
Growing up in Los Angeles, we understood that the migration of Black folks was, in a way, needed for the war effort in WW2. Soon after that, those jobs dried up and the factories went shut. This was in the 50's and 60's. Yet, no one talks about the decimation of the black middle class and how it led to riots and despair.
Same thing, drugs enter the minority neighborhoods, draconian crime bills are passed. White folks fall in the opioid epidemic, and oh, no one is listening to their pain!
Please, deal with class and race openly for once, why don't you?
OMG! I totally get it now! Thank you! It’s also deflection!
Great guest
We cannot live divided
We must try to understand others & to care about others..American can heal & rise above our differences ♡
It would be interesting for Ms. Hochschild to do the same kind of research in upper Santa Clara County (home of Stanford)/San Mateo County California in the deepest blue parts of America, just south of San Francisco. Why are these poor liberal people so ignorant about what is really going on? Why do their policies cause so much blatant homelessness and misery. Why are liberal policies causing so many deaths due to substance abuse. Why are thousands living in tents with no purpose in live other than just to survive through the day. Why are beautiful public areas in the Bay Area and LA County desecrated by human being who use public areas as bathrooms. Why are so many people dying in the richest parts of America in these liberal bastions ? Arlie doesn't need to get on a plane to study the causes of homeless in San Francisco and Santa Clara County and how failed liberal policies caused this misery. Why are supposedly well educated liberals in such denial about the human misery they are causing ?
@@ohhs7830 I don't agree that liberals are causing these problems but greed and income disparity are part of the reason. Drug addiction doesn't discriminate. It has more to do with genes interacting with shame and abuse. No easy answers here but we live in a world with plenty of resources if we can find a way to get them where they are needed. Buying overpriced gold watches and trinkets won't get us to a better place any more than beads and metal objects did much for native people.
WEALTH INEQUALITY
The Old Regular Baptists, a Christian denomination in the East Kentucky coalfields (including Pike County) still sing these Isaac Watts lyrics to the "Amazing Grace" tune:
======
I'm not ashamed to own my Lord,
or to defend his cause,
maintain the honor of his Word,
the glory of his cross.
As insightful as many of these social observations are, I have to wonder about their fundamental value in the absence of thorough personal evaluations. After all, when individuals are in and of themselves disunited and dysfunctional, any artificial social improvements are bound to be transitory at best.
Or from another viewpoint, how is it to be expected that directly addressing the widely acknowledged decline of social and political institutions will of itself heal individuals? Certainly sick people can get better -- but not if they don't for themselves believe it is possible. Tell me how you saw this for yourself.
The shame sharing concept is so interesting
Actually thinking about the people I know and surrounded me… they are more middle class ( lower) work jobs make $$$ but spend spend spend.
Their values are different. They just see increases in the last 4 years….as a result of Covid and corporate greed.
Berkeley is spelled with 3 "e"s Question? What pride did ALL Americans ever have over the hundreds of years in our country?
My mother who grew up in Texas to signs that shouted "No Negroes, No Dogs, No Mexicans, No Jews" was a 3rd Generation American of Mexican, Indigenous, European, and African descent who was never afforded or privileged enough to be proud, or even to be treated equally as other Americans --- women weren't even allowed to get loans for business/homes, have rights to their children in a divorce or rights to credit cards until the mid-70s. Really? What pride was she afforded? None. She was made to feel that she was nothing and not caucasian enough to be equal. listened to, cared about, valued or part of the Liberty and Justice for All...and still the Americans of Latina/o, Indigenous, African, Asian descent face the same chasm of inclusion ...several hundred years before those (caucasians) immigrating here from Europe. Historically.
I am educated and think educated individuals often lack critical thinking skills and depend on others to do their thinking for them.
I understand people blaming those running the command economy for their economic situation.