To get an accurate response curve, you really need to connect the actual speakers that will be used. Speakers have impedance curves and the Bode plot will reflect those curves. The woofer should be in it's actual cabinet as the cabinet will greatly influence the speaker impedance curve and then the Bode plot. It is always interesting to connect a microphone to the oscilloscope and run a room Bode plot. The room has a huge effect on the speaker response. Sound waves are bouncing and colliding all over the place. Run a second plot with the microphone move to a corner and the plot will be entirely different. Don't worry much at all about the phase shift. If you don't like it, then more your ear over a few inches and it will reverse phase. You can only detect it with a single frequency from a generator. My opinion is that the crossover's main purpose is to protect the fragile tweeters from low frequencies and then to distribute the amps output to the component best able to handle the frequency range. Concerning the crossover tested in this video, if there is concern about the dips at the far ranges of each component, remember that the high end of the woofer is additive to the low end of the mid-range and similar with the mid-range. If you add the decibels, you get a flatter more accurate curve. When testing the total frequency curve of a three way crossover, I found the most accurate curve came when a full range speaker was connected to all three outputs simultaneously and a bode plot was made in front of the speaker (in its cabinet) with a calibrated microphone.
Thank you for this awesome feedback! I agree completely! Using a resistor to compare crossovers is a great start I think, but to truly find the impedance behavior you need to repeat with actual drivers. And then ever room is still going to affect the response. Thank you for this awesome information!!
Thanks for trying again and put a low 4-8 ohm resistance And stil lot of things that influence if the source are inductive ( opt tube amp ) or pure resistive I play with a big 25-1500 pf tuning capacitor to see effect 🧐 , and find a optimum values Jus playing and try to learn Thanks Eddy for explanation 👍
Sometimes it takes some trial and errors - especially when parasitics play a big part. Like really small or large values - the parasitics seem to want to work against the goal;)
Alot of good thought info here. I've a 1978 set of the JBL L65/Jubal speakers, but I replaced the woofer driver to the 2213H driver in 1986 (the compliance - outer foam suspension??) rotted out. It's now 43-44 years on.. speakers still intact, but not commissioned..... any suggestions to recommission? No serious corrosion by the looks of things... Thanks for the videos. Well produced.
I installed today the 2 way version KASUN AS-23C which was in my drawer for two years in their box , replaced finally in my bookshelf speakers replaced the 5 way binding post of good quality ones , I had a time to do this project as I am in quarantine 😂.
@@maxrider2887 Hi Max, I would say it has good quality parts and it is build very well, in terms of the sound I can't say to much because I did not A/B test them.
Thank You very, very much for these plots! I was considering using these crossovers to rebuild my columns, but the phase characteristics of the midrange speaker scared me. I made superposition of 3 characteristics of the channels + my 3 speakers and indeed, at point when it switches to the midrange (and into the tweeter range again), the summary gain was collapsing with a sharp phase change. After this I swapped the midrange speaker polarisation (+/-) and WOW! The gain is really flat at the both crossing points (-2.5dB | 0.5dB) and the phase shift runs smoothly from 0 ° to -320 ° at 20 kHz. (of course I can share my .xls files). Now I am ordering these crossovers and I am very curious if the sound will coincide with Your measurements + my calculations... Thanks again for these great job!
MAVIcomPL Wow, that’s great feedback;) I’ll really be interested in hearing about how this works out for you! Thank you for the info - I’ll look forward to hearing from you again.
@@KissAnalog I finished the rebulid of the "New Mildton 200 Tonsil" loudspeakers (New - better speakers, sealed case, new damping construction inside, calculated bass reflex and the Kasun crossovers of course). The set sounds really good: natural, clearly, independent (without audible deterioration when adding next tones), with smooth frequency response. I reached the point where the room is bigger problem than my audio system. I can confidently recommend these crossovers for the 8 Ohm speaker set, remembering to reverse the Mid tones speaker polarity. Thank You one more time. My projech is finished and complete.
Can a 3 way crossover be hook up to a 2 way speaker? Example 1 channel to the tweeters and maybe merge the lower 2 channel to a midwoofer? Will it cause any issues?
Wow I think I've got it! :-) If we take a RC low pass filter, the resistor is "visible" for every frequency and only the capacitor changes impedance, depended on the frequency. While at a LC filter, the inductor gets invisible for some frequency's and wary resistive at others. That's also why the LC filter has 12db pr octave (what that means?) because two components cooperates on blocking the frequency you desire. I think it was perfect that you save the mid range filter for last, it all got together and was easy to see the logic in! :-) Also the part of you making your capacitor having about twice the impedance made a lot of sense, the power finds an easier way to travel, via the speaker. :-) Hope I did understand it correctly? Oh and by the way, great transitions between clips:-)
Fried Mule Yes - I think you have it;) 12 dB per octave is a drop in voltage of 12 dB as you double the frequency after the break frequency. So, if the filter corner frequency is 5 kHz for example, then at twice the frequency the signal would be down 12 dB at 10 kHz then down to 24 dB at 20 kHz and 36 dB at 40 kHz and so on.
@@KissAnalog Oh thanks, great explanation, I am so glad for all your hard work and great channel!! :-) 6dB means half of voltage, so 12dB per octave will mean 1/4 of the voltage, just after one octave?
Yes every 6 dB (or 20 dB per decade is the same thing). It rolls off fast, but has the resonance that requires the dampening to try to keep it flatter...
Great video about crossower.I want learn these: in some crossowers using car lamps for tweeter protect for especiall while microphones feedback. If have good design crossowers for suiable power amplifier not need bulbs for protect? Other question what is these filter design's power rating ? for example how is change values for 500 watt RMS amplifer crossower design (for all same frequency filter ranges) Summary if our amplifier's have not feedback protect feature how to protect speakers in crossower?and how is change design for more power amplifiers? Again thank you for great crossover video series
I know that there is no one size fits all. But iam in the market for my first oscilloscope. And I do auto electric and iam learning all I can about class a/a/b and class d amplifers along with ham radio gear and cbradios. As of right now iam mostley doing auto electric but I want to get into amplifier repair / alignment and etc. But I know I need an oscilloscope and a signal generator and probabley a signal.analizer and I know I will need some other test equipment. So my question is with the info I have given you is what would be a good all around oscilloscope for me to work on auto electric and amplifers Cause iam also going to get the autel scan tool for my auto gig later. But for now I want my oscilloscope first. Cause I have been trying for monts to buy one. I have around 1,500 to spend on an oscilloscope. And I also know that I will probaey need all the accessories that are sold separately like a differential probe and etc.
This is fun and exciting starting this road you are on - many cool things to learn. If you have equipment that doesn't hold you back - it will make the journey that much better. If you want something that can be portable and run off battery - which also helps isolate the scope probe returns from the ac power - then maybe this OWON will be the trick. Owon is a bit newer to the field, but that also gives them the motivation to offer a lot more for less. This Owon has the battery option and two generator outputs - so that helps you be able to make both your scope and your generator more compact and portable. They also have a huge very nice screen and in this model it is touch screen - which might also help make measurements easier. It is low cost too - but like I say - they are a bit newer to the field. I am thinking of getting this scope for reviews and to try it out. Here's the link: amzn.to/2onZQJ9 Then there's the case where you can go high end for your budget and get my favorite scope for audio and power supplies. It is the GW Instek MDO series. This series is Mixed Mode Oscilloscope, so it has a spectrum analyzer as well. Now both this scope and the Owon have an FFT function which is nearly the same, but the spectrum analyzer is easier to use and might provide better bandwidth and resolution (not absolutely sure about this, but BW and resolution at the same time - I'm pretty sure about that). Here's the link to a 70 MHz, which I think is all anyone needs - unless they are doing fast digital work (over 25 MHz and needs sharp edges there). But the MDO also has 2 generators (25 MHz) and has the Bode Plot (FRA) analysis as well. I has an applications menu kind of like a smart phone;) amzn.to/2BP92JD Here's a video that I did on this: ruclips.net/video/g-p6POqWmno/видео.html As for differential probes, this is a great option and 100 MHz bandwidth; amzn.to/2WjBKf5 And this diff probe cost more but has a lower scale option which might provide more resolution at low voltage signals. It also has removable leads - but is a bit larger than the Micsig and has a 25 MHz bandwidth; amzn.to/345o0XV Here's a video that I did on the diff probes: ruclips.net/video/892RcsIUAtU/видео.html I hope this helps - thanks for the comment!
Great video, proves real world that you have to load a passive crossover for it to behave anywhere near where you expect. would still like to see it tested with real drivers attached. Also i have always been interested in how much total harmonic distortion does a passive crossover add to the output signal. I always feel that active systems always sound cleaner than passive and have often wondered if this would show on measurements. Thanks for the great video though this is like real gold dust information.
Thank you! I do need to do another video on this. As you point out there are some interesting questions that we need answers for;) Thank you for this great feedback!
Great question. It would be nice to view a bode plot with each channel at the same time - but sadly any scope that I have used will only plot one Bode plot at a time Channel B / Channel A (for instance).
Great question! To be a perfectionist, I would want the phase to be aligned, but from what I understand - our brain doesn't care. It could be that the frequencies are so low - even the twitter - that it just doesn't matter. Also, the sound bounces off so many surfaces that they are so combined that it just doesn't matter. But, in the end - I think I'd align all speakers to start off in the same phase:)
@@KissAnalog I installed them on an actual system and they definetely sound better reversed, for otherwise there is a gap where the midrange and the tweeter outlap (must be in phase opposition)
INTERESTING PRESENTATION AND,A UP GRADE ON THE CURVES.WHY DOES IT NOT SHOW A MORE LIKE GRAPH OF THE BODE PLOT FROM THE MANUFACTURER?IS IT BECAUSE THEY WERE USING MORE EXPENSIVE AND,ACCURATE EQUIPMENT?
Kiss Analog yes it’s Clear about the difference between db dbm , but in the first measurement the input resistance is in parallel on the circuit and is damping it , even a difference between a 8 or 4 ohm resistance wil effect it ( that is my idea Eddy ) thanks very much for your answer 👍
Bert, that's an intersting question. I think when the source of the signal cares - or wants to be balanced - then the impedance matters. But, if the generator or source can power the impedance without being loaded - then it doesn't matter. But, now I'm wondering if the low impedance (50 ohm) that I chose is dampening the filter - I'll have to checks) I do have the two impedances I can use, so I can experiment. Thanks for the idea!!
Thanks for your Videos. I have a Pair of 1991 Klipsh Forte 2 with old caps. I must say these look way better than stock and want to try them vrs $650 new built crossovers. I wanted your opinion on using these in my Klipsh Forte 2. You can Google pics of stock Forte 2 crossover to compare to. Thank you.
Great question Kevin! It would be interesting to hear this in your Forte speakers. You could also just replace the caps. The one part in the filter that looks like a tapped inductor - I can't see a value for that part.
i just want to hear what it does connected to a 3way speaker so ill decide to buy or not im not really interested in how its made but thanks it was interesting
Sorry about that. I think it is so hard to show how good a crossover sounds - unless there are specific drivers or a speaker to put it in. It will sound different with each set of drivers and box design. So, I showed the curves (bode plots) that each output provided. This way you could match up the frequency response with the drivers or speaker box that you want to put it in. Also, the quality of components are hidden in the speaker box so you never know how good of components it actually has, so I thought that showing the nice toroids and capacitors would halp that. Does that make sense?
Yeah that's what I meant it was just to technical for me. I'm looking for an answer to a question I'm not sure how to word it right so I'm on a mission to accidentally find the information I need or can understand or use. No big deal though. I do enjoy learning new information that may be helpful in some way some day.
curious what happen if you put a resistive-inductive load on the output like speakers, probably gonna change the bode plot a bit, and is there anyway to combine all bode plot so you can see what happend to the frequency response and the phase if they work together, can the frequency response go flat, or is there any peak, also what type of crossover do they use on that 3 ways, there's a lot crossover type, but the more popular one like butterworth, linkwitz-riley, bessel, etc, they have a diffrent response on the crossover point, there's so much to learn if you really want to dig deeper to speaker design and crossover design, and i just got interested on speaker design lately, there's a program called VirtuixCAD, and WinISD, free program for designing a crossover based on the speaker frequency response, and speaker's box design, if you really interested on building your own speakers, probably worth trying, anyway.. nice explanation and video sir, have a good day :D
Seraph Thank you for the great feedback! You are right - there’s so much more to cover. I hope to do that, and build on this which I think is a good practical start. The real impedance for a speaker is what makes this even more complex. Hopefully, at the frequency of interest for each speaker type - it is resistive for its band of interest - or at least mostly resistive;) I’m going to cover the input impedance to the filter - which is the output impedance of the amplifier. What is the amplifier seeing at its output?
@@KissAnalog correct me if i'm wrong, as far as i know that amplifiers gonna see the speaker as an inductive loads, but as well as resistive load, it depends on the frequency that speaker playing, and depends on the parameters that speaker has, there's a parameter called Fs, which is "free air resonance frequency" where the resonance of the cone matched with the resonance of the body of the speaker, at that points, the impedance of the speaker gonna go up significantly, so it takes less power to drive the speaker at the resonance frequency
Great questions!! I think the idea is to try to make the loads look resistive thru the freq of interest, but that is such an interesting question. I do think you want to stay away from any resonance tho or have little energy there, or resonance becomes hard to drive - it just goes/moves too freely. I'm going to have to do more experiments.... Great subject - just so much going on!
I do think that all speakers are passive crossovers. I want to do more investigation and see what we can do to improve this. I’ve been thinking about doing a video series on OpAmps, thanks for reminding me.
I HOPE SO,WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE STUDYING ELECTRONICS WE DID NOT HAVE MUCH ON OP AMPS,IT PROVED TO BE FATAL.I REMEMBER HAVING A JOB INTERVIEW WITH BURR BROWN AND,COULD NOT ANSWER A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS ABOUT OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS. I DID NOT GET THE JOB.
david luther That is such a bummer! I’d love to work for those guys! Ok, you will be my feedback on how well it goes. I think it is a fantastic subject and not all that hard to master.
Excellent work you have done actually i found my old hifi in my mum's storage and was in not bad condition so i decide to upgrade it a bit the speakers sonyss-d105 cabinet was not i the best shape ill make 2 new thats the easiest part ha ha ha now the crossovers i dont have the knowledge to make and i prefer not to pay for some custom do you think this will do some nice job? Or the drivers wont work well?thank you anyway for your nice video 👌
Thank you! Yes I think the crossover points are set at common points. The components seem to be of pretty high quality - especially for the price - and probably a lot better than what came with many high production run speakers.
@@KissAnalog ty very much for your information on this project would this crossover handle 2 18" subwoofers 2 midrange speakers and 2 tweeters right in the same speaker box
Great measurements. The levels seemed to a novice mostly flat and as designed. But, the phase going nearly 180 degrees out for the mid and tweet seems like its a pretty negative aspect of performance, no?
You don’t love any more I think after this 😁, The Schematic for the tweeter filter and mid range from you Eddy has a coil with a core ? But the coils are air coils
Yes, 2 cores are air cores and 2 cores are a 2 cores are cylindrical ferrets, so hollow in the middle but they are ferrite. This makes them difficult to saturate;)
Thanks Simone - I appreciate you and am glad that you are OK! I'm sorry what this disease has done:( I am glad to hear that I have someone in Italy sending feedback - that's awesome! ciao from Utah;) BTW, we had an Earth Quake the other day and that just seems like - what's next!? Thankfully it didn't do much damage.
@@KissAnalog Hello and thanks for the reply! luckily me and friends are fine and we are all stuck in the house, I hope that the earthquake did not cause problems, even here in Italy some slight shocks are often felt, now stuck in the house I am trying to improve the sound of my car by mounting the tweeter and build second-order filters (Linkwitz-riley)between medium and tweeter, your video is fantastic for those like me who are not electronics experts made me understand many things. keep it up! Greetings from Ravenna Italy
I want to see these installed in a speaker cabinet and hooked up to speakers and played then hear what they sound like and also measure with a microphone
@@KissAnalog personally i would like to see some affordable budget drivers like maybe dayton audios. Not sure on specific models that would work. I am wanting to do a budget speaker build so this would help me out alot. Maybe others will chime in on good affordable speakers to use.
Edit : It's 1stborder crossover @90 degree phase shift ...NOT RECOMMENDED 2nd order or 4 the order are ESSENTIAL Sir ...you ... DIVERTED from Reality. Resistive LOAD ....!!! R load give No phase loading on AMP & impedance Matching problems are skipped Disappointed 😭
Thanks for this conversation. A correction tho, a 1st order has a 45 degree shift and a second order is 90 degrees. This filter has a 2nd order in both the high pass and low pass filters. The mid range is at least a 4th order. Using a representative load like a 4 ohm or 8 ohm resistor is a way to compare filters. I’d be happy to try a load that is a better representation, but what would that be? I do not know a load that is representative of a speaker - other than a speaker itself, but then which do I select? I really want to find a better way, so I am open for suggestions. I’m going to buy some speaker drivers to try, but this RUclips hobby is already expensive and very time consuming, but I like it so I’ll keep getting better. Thanks for the feedback - I really do appreciate it.
@@KissAnalog Great sir ... Thanks , Every inductor gives -90 degree (electrical phase shift to the signal ....of A total of 360 degree of a cycle ) While capacitor gives +90° .... When we APPLY directly to A speaker .... Due to cross-magnatization , A lot of "Acoustic distortion may occur ".... (Because of extreme distortion in electrical phase shift) Consequence to Non linear GAIN Curve Hope ..... Can watch the same With Speaker Load 👍 Great work sir ... Joining to your Patreon 👏
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👏👏 excellent, very good explanation. Thanks!!!
Fernando Lagomarsino You bet! And thanks for the great feedback!
To get an accurate response curve, you really need to connect the actual speakers that will be used. Speakers have impedance curves and the Bode plot will reflect those curves. The woofer should be in it's actual cabinet as the cabinet will greatly influence the speaker impedance curve and then the Bode plot. It is always interesting to connect a microphone to the oscilloscope and run a room Bode plot. The room has a huge effect on the speaker response. Sound waves are bouncing and colliding all over the place. Run a second plot with the microphone move to a corner and the plot will be entirely different. Don't worry much at all about the phase shift. If you don't like it, then more your ear over a few inches and it will reverse phase. You can only detect it with a single frequency from a generator.
My opinion is that the crossover's main purpose is to protect the fragile tweeters from low frequencies and then to distribute the amps output to the component best able to handle the frequency range.
Concerning the crossover tested in this video, if there is concern about the dips at the far ranges of each component, remember that the high end of the woofer is additive to the low end of the mid-range and similar with the mid-range. If you add the decibels, you get a flatter more accurate curve.
When testing the total frequency curve of a three way crossover, I found the most accurate curve came when a full range speaker was connected to all three outputs simultaneously and a bode plot was made in front of the speaker (in its cabinet) with a calibrated microphone.
Thank you for this awesome feedback! I agree completely! Using a resistor to compare crossovers is a great start I think, but to truly find the impedance behavior you need to repeat with actual drivers. And then ever room is still going to affect the response. Thank you for this awesome information!!
Thanks for trying again and put a low 4-8 ohm resistance And stil lot of things that influence if the source are inductive ( opt tube amp ) or pure resistive I play with a big 25-1500 pf tuning capacitor to see effect 🧐 , and find a optimum values Jus playing and try to learn Thanks Eddy for explanation 👍
Sometimes it takes some trial and errors - especially when parasitics play a big part. Like really small or large values - the parasitics seem to want to work against the goal;)
Alot of good thought info here. I've a 1978 set of the JBL L65/Jubal speakers, but I replaced the woofer driver to the 2213H driver in 1986 (the compliance - outer foam suspension??) rotted out. It's now 43-44 years on.. speakers still intact, but not commissioned..... any suggestions to recommission? No serious corrosion by the looks of things...
Thanks for the videos. Well produced.
I installed today the 2 way version KASUN AS-23C which was in my drawer for two years in their box , replaced finally in my bookshelf speakers replaced the 5 way binding post of good quality ones , I had a time to do this project as I am in quarantine 😂.
How is the crossover?
@@maxrider2887 Hi Max, I would say it has good quality parts and it is build very well, in terms of the sound I can't say to much because I did not A/B test them.
Thanks for the great feedback! I want to experiment with these crossovers. Do you have any recommendations?
Thank You very, very much for these plots!
I was considering using these crossovers to rebuild my columns, but the phase characteristics of the midrange speaker scared me.
I made superposition of 3 characteristics of the channels + my 3 speakers and indeed, at point when it switches to the midrange (and into the tweeter range again), the summary gain was collapsing with a sharp phase change.
After this I swapped the midrange speaker polarisation (+/-) and WOW!
The gain is really flat at the both crossing points (-2.5dB | 0.5dB) and the phase shift runs smoothly from 0 ° to -320 ° at 20 kHz.
(of course I can share my .xls files).
Now I am ordering these crossovers and I am very curious if the sound will coincide with Your measurements + my calculations...
Thanks again for these great job!
MAVIcomPL Wow, that’s great feedback;) I’ll really be interested in hearing about how this works out for you! Thank you for the info - I’ll look forward to hearing from you again.
@@KissAnalog I finished the rebulid of the "New Mildton 200 Tonsil" loudspeakers (New - better speakers, sealed case, new damping construction inside, calculated bass reflex and the Kasun crossovers of course). The set sounds really good: natural, clearly, independent (without audible deterioration when adding next tones), with smooth frequency response. I reached the point where the room is bigger problem than my audio system. I can confidently recommend these crossovers for the 8 Ohm speaker set, remembering to reverse the Mid tones speaker polarity.
Thank You one more time. My projech is finished and complete.
@@MAVIcomPL wow this is great information - thank you very much!!
Can a 3 way crossover be hook up to a 2 way speaker? Example 1 channel to the tweeters and maybe merge the lower 2 channel to a midwoofer? Will it cause any issues?
That is a great Question! I'll have to do a video on this topic soon;)
Wow I think I've got it! :-) If we take a RC low pass filter, the resistor is "visible" for every frequency and only the capacitor changes impedance, depended on the frequency. While at a LC filter, the inductor gets invisible for some frequency's and wary resistive at others. That's also why the LC filter has 12db pr octave (what that means?) because two components cooperates on blocking the frequency you desire.
I think it was perfect that you save the mid range filter for last, it all got together and was easy to see the logic in! :-)
Also the part of you making your capacitor having about twice the impedance made a lot of sense, the power finds an easier way to travel, via the speaker. :-)
Hope I did understand it correctly?
Oh and by the way, great transitions between clips:-)
Fried Mule Yes - I think you have it;) 12 dB per octave is a drop in voltage of 12 dB as you double the frequency after the break frequency. So, if the filter corner frequency is 5 kHz for example, then at twice the frequency the signal would be down 12 dB at 10 kHz then down to 24 dB at 20 kHz and 36 dB at 40 kHz and so on.
@@KissAnalog Oh thanks, great explanation, I am so glad for all your hard work and great channel!! :-)
6dB means half of voltage, so 12dB per octave will mean 1/4 of the voltage, just after one octave?
Yes every 6 dB (or 20 dB per decade is the same thing). It rolls off fast, but has the resonance that requires the dampening to try to keep it flatter...
Great video about crossower.I want learn these:
in some crossowers using car lamps for tweeter protect for especiall while microphones feedback.
If have good design crossowers for suiable power amplifier not need bulbs for protect?
Other question what is these filter design's power rating ? for example how is change values for 500 watt RMS amplifer crossower design (for all same frequency filter ranges)
Summary if our amplifier's have not feedback protect feature how to protect speakers in crossower?and how is change design for more power amplifiers?
Again thank you for great crossover video series
I know that there is no one size fits all. But iam in the market for my first oscilloscope. And I do auto electric and iam learning all I can about class a/a/b and class d amplifers along with ham radio gear and cbradios. As of right now iam mostley doing auto electric but I want to get into amplifier repair / alignment and etc. But I know I need an oscilloscope and a signal generator and probabley a signal.analizer and I know I will need some other test equipment. So my question is with the info I have given you is what would be a good all around oscilloscope for me to work on auto electric and amplifers
Cause iam also going to get the autel scan tool for my auto gig later. But for now I want my oscilloscope first. Cause I have been trying for monts to buy one. I have around 1,500 to spend on an oscilloscope. And I also know that I will probaey need all the accessories that are sold separately like a differential probe and etc.
This is fun and exciting starting this road you are on - many cool things to learn. If you have equipment that doesn't hold you back - it will make the journey that much better. If you want something that can be portable and run off battery - which also helps isolate the scope probe returns from the ac power - then maybe this OWON will be the trick. Owon is a bit newer to the field, but that also gives them the motivation to offer a lot more for less. This Owon has the battery option and two generator outputs - so that helps you be able to make both your scope and your generator more compact and portable. They also have a huge very nice screen and in this model it is touch screen - which might also help make measurements easier. It is low cost too - but like I say - they are a bit newer to the field. I am thinking of getting this scope for reviews and to try it out. Here's the link: amzn.to/2onZQJ9
Then there's the case where you can go high end for your budget and get my favorite scope for audio and power supplies. It is the GW Instek MDO series. This series is Mixed Mode Oscilloscope, so it has a spectrum analyzer as well. Now both this scope and the Owon have an FFT function which is nearly the same, but the spectrum analyzer is easier to use and might provide better bandwidth and resolution (not absolutely sure about this, but BW and resolution at the same time - I'm pretty sure about that). Here's the link to a 70 MHz, which I think is all anyone needs - unless they are doing fast digital work (over 25 MHz and needs sharp edges there). But the MDO also has 2 generators (25 MHz) and has the Bode Plot (FRA) analysis as well. I has an applications menu kind of like a smart phone;) amzn.to/2BP92JD
Here's a video that I did on this: ruclips.net/video/g-p6POqWmno/видео.html
As for differential probes, this is a great option and 100 MHz bandwidth; amzn.to/2WjBKf5
And this diff probe cost more but has a lower scale option which might provide more resolution at low voltage signals. It also has removable leads - but is a bit larger than the Micsig and has a 25 MHz bandwidth; amzn.to/345o0XV
Here's a video that I did on the diff probes: ruclips.net/video/892RcsIUAtU/видео.html
I hope this helps - thanks for the comment!
Hi Eddie, thanks again for a great demonstration. It was excellent. Thanks
Thank you!
I have kasun L380c units, I see it has 'pass input' ; I assume that's for the bass. What would you recommend for that?
Thanks for asking. I think that is the input, and then the other terminals should be labeled for which speaker output it is.
Great video, proves real world that you have to load a passive crossover for it to behave anywhere near where you expect. would still like to see it tested with real drivers attached. Also i have always been interested in how much total harmonic distortion does a passive crossover add to the output signal. I always feel that active systems always sound cleaner than passive and have often wondered if this would show on measurements. Thanks for the great video though this is like real gold dust information.
Thank you! I do need to do another video on this. As you point out there are some interesting questions that we need answers for;) Thank you for this great feedback!
Question, if you have a 4 channel scope, why don't you plot all 3 outputs simultaneously?
Great question. It would be nice to view a bode plot with each channel at the same time - but sadly any scope that I have used will only plot one Bode plot at a time Channel B / Channel A (for instance).
I have a question, I am not to technical about the things that you described. My question is is it a good quality crossover? For the money I mean?
Fernando Trinidad I think it is. Nice components and nice build quality. I’ll have to review more crossovers to reall compare.
Question: I am assuming there is no need to reverse polarity on the tweeter or any of the drivers?
Great question! To be a perfectionist, I would want the phase to be aligned, but from what I understand - our brain doesn't care. It could be that the frequencies are so low - even the twitter - that it just doesn't matter. Also, the sound bounces off so many surfaces that they are so combined that it just doesn't matter. But, in the end - I think I'd align all speakers to start off in the same phase:)
@@KissAnalog I installed them on an actual system and they definetely sound better reversed, for otherwise there is a gap where the midrange and the tweeter outlap (must be in phase opposition)
INTERESTING PRESENTATION AND,A UP GRADE ON THE CURVES.WHY DOES IT NOT SHOW A MORE LIKE GRAPH OF THE BODE PLOT FROM THE MANUFACTURER?IS IT BECAUSE THEY WERE USING MORE EXPENSIVE AND,ACCURATE EQUIPMENT?
I think it is because the scales are different. I should have tried getting it set up closer.
Normaly is the input also a Low impedance Should that make andiffrece if you choose dBm the spectrumanalyzer tells it
Bert, in this case it doesn't because it is comparitive (output over input), so it is just voltage gain not power gain. Great question!
Kiss Analog yes it’s Clear about the difference between db dbm , but in the first measurement the input resistance is in parallel on the circuit and is damping it , even a difference between a 8 or 4 ohm resistance wil effect it ( that is my idea Eddy ) thanks very much for your answer 👍
Bert, that's an intersting question. I think when the source of the signal cares - or wants to be balanced - then the impedance matters. But, if the generator or source can power the impedance without being loaded - then it doesn't matter. But, now I'm wondering if the low impedance (50 ohm) that I chose is dampening the filter - I'll have to checks) I do have the two impedances I can use, so I can experiment. Thanks for the idea!!
Thanks for your Videos. I have a Pair of 1991 Klipsh Forte 2 with old caps. I must say these look way better than stock and want to try them vrs $650 new built crossovers. I wanted your opinion on using these in my Klipsh Forte 2. You can Google pics of stock Forte 2 crossover to compare to. Thank you.
Great question Kevin! It would be interesting to hear this in your Forte speakers. You could also just replace the caps. The one part in the filter that looks like a tapped inductor - I can't see a value for that part.
i just want to hear what it does connected to a 3way speaker so ill decide to buy or not im not really interested in how its made but thanks it was interesting
Sorry about that. I think it is so hard to show how good a crossover sounds - unless there are specific drivers or a speaker to put it in. It will sound different with each set of drivers and box design. So, I showed the curves (bode plots) that each output provided. This way you could match up the frequency response with the drivers or speaker box that you want to put it in. Also, the quality of components are hidden in the speaker box so you never know how good of components it actually has, so I thought that showing the nice toroids and capacitors would halp that. Does that make sense?
Yeah that's what I meant it was just to technical for me. I'm looking for an answer to a question I'm not sure how to word it right so I'm on a mission to accidentally find the information I need or can understand or use. No big deal though. I do enjoy learning new information that may be helpful in some way some day.
curious what happen if you put a resistive-inductive load on the output like speakers, probably gonna change the bode plot a bit, and is there anyway to combine all bode plot so you can see what happend to the frequency response and the phase if they work together, can the frequency response go flat, or is there any peak, also what type of crossover do they use on that 3 ways, there's a lot crossover type, but the more popular one like butterworth, linkwitz-riley, bessel, etc, they have a diffrent response on the crossover point, there's so much to learn if you really want to dig deeper to speaker design and crossover design, and i just got interested on speaker design lately, there's a program called VirtuixCAD, and WinISD, free program for designing a crossover based on the speaker frequency response, and speaker's box design, if you really interested on building your own speakers, probably worth trying, anyway.. nice explanation and video sir, have a good day :D
Seraph Thank you for the great feedback! You are right - there’s so much more to cover. I hope to do that, and build on this which I think is a good practical start. The real impedance for a speaker is what makes this even more complex. Hopefully, at the frequency of interest for each speaker type - it is resistive for its band of interest - or at least mostly resistive;) I’m going to cover the input impedance to the filter - which is the output impedance of the amplifier. What is the amplifier seeing at its output?
@@KissAnalog correct me if i'm wrong, as far as i know that amplifiers gonna see the speaker as an inductive loads, but as well as resistive load, it depends on the frequency that speaker playing, and depends on the parameters that speaker has, there's a parameter called Fs, which is "free air resonance frequency" where the resonance of the cone matched with the resonance of the body of the speaker, at that points, the impedance of the speaker gonna go up significantly, so it takes less power to drive the speaker at the resonance frequency
Great questions!! I think the idea is to try to make the loads look resistive thru the freq of interest, but that is such an interesting question. I do think you want to stay away from any resonance tho or have little energy there, or resonance becomes hard to drive - it just goes/moves too freely. I'm going to have to do more experiments.... Great subject - just so much going on!
But a very nice explanation Thank you very much
Thanks Bert - I appreciate you and the great questions/comments!
Hi I appreciate if you could show us how to build crossover for cube speaker
Thanks Ronald - great idea! I have meant to do more work on this type of video;)
@@KissAnalog Thanks. But dont. Forget
WOULD DO LECTURE ON ACTIVE FILTERS?ARE ALL THE SPEAKER CROSS OVERS USUALLY PASSIVE FILTERS?
I do think that all speakers are passive crossovers. I want to do more investigation and see what we can do to improve this. I’ve been thinking about doing a video series on OpAmps, thanks for reminding me.
I HOPE SO,WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE STUDYING ELECTRONICS WE DID NOT HAVE MUCH ON OP AMPS,IT PROVED TO BE FATAL.I REMEMBER HAVING A JOB INTERVIEW WITH BURR BROWN AND,COULD NOT ANSWER A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS ABOUT OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS. I DID NOT GET THE JOB.
david luther That is such a bummer! I’d love to work for those guys! Ok, you will be my feedback on how well it goes. I think it is a fantastic subject and not all that hard to master.
Excellent work you have done actually i found my old hifi in my mum's storage and was in not bad condition so i decide to upgrade it a bit the speakers sonyss-d105 cabinet was not i the best shape ill make 2 new thats the easiest part ha ha ha now the crossovers i dont have the knowledge to make and i prefer not to pay for some custom do you think this will do some nice job? Or the drivers wont work well?thank you anyway for your nice video 👌
Thank you! Yes I think the crossover points are set at common points. The components seem to be of pretty high quality - especially for the price - and probably a lot better than what came with many high production run speakers.
So I can use it for a passive speakers
Yes - that is actually what it is meant for.
@@KissAnalog ty very much for your information on this project would this crossover handle 2 18" subwoofers 2 midrange speakers and 2 tweeters right in the same speaker box
Great measurements. The levels seemed to a novice mostly flat and as designed. But, the phase going nearly 180 degrees out for the mid and tweet seems like its a pretty negative aspect of performance, no?
Thank you! Yes I agree, I don’t like that phase shift.
The mid or tweeter, mid in this case should be reversed polarity to counter that maybe?
That might be the way to go - thank you!
You don’t love any more I think after this 😁, The Schematic for the tweeter filter and mid range from you Eddy has a coil with a core ? But the coils are air coils
Yes, 2 cores are air cores and 2 cores are a 2 cores are cylindrical ferrets, so hollow in the middle but they are ferrite. This makes them difficult to saturate;)
excellent video ....ciao from ITALY
Thanks Simone - I appreciate you and am glad that you are OK! I'm sorry what this disease has done:(
I am glad to hear that I have someone in Italy sending feedback - that's awesome! ciao from Utah;) BTW, we had an Earth Quake the other day and that just seems like - what's next!? Thankfully it didn't do much damage.
@@KissAnalog Hello and thanks for the reply! luckily me and friends are fine and we are all stuck in the house, I hope that the earthquake did not cause problems, even here in Italy some slight shocks are often felt, now stuck in the house I am trying to improve the sound of my car by mounting the tweeter and build second-order filters (Linkwitz-riley)between medium and tweeter, your video is fantastic for those like me who are not electronics experts made me understand many things. keep it up!
Greetings from Ravenna Italy
Glad you are safe. Time for projects right? Take care and keep in touch;)
Yes it looks better Eddy
Next I'll show what the input impedance is to this filter with loads. This is what the amplifier will see - and I am anxious to see myself;)
I want to see these installed in a speaker cabinet and hooked up to speakers and played then hear what they sound like and also measure with a microphone
That will be a great test! I am putting together the stuff to do that. If you have speaker drivers to suggest - I'll check them out.
@@KissAnalog personally i would like to see some affordable budget drivers like maybe dayton audios. Not sure on specific models that would work. I am wanting to do a budget speaker build so this would help me out alot. Maybe others will chime in on good affordable speakers to use.
@@bobkeller8383 thank you- I still plan to do this;)
tôi muốn hỏi XL là gì XC là giá trị gì
do an actual demonstration of the different sounds inductors and capacitors put out with actual music
Thank you! That sounds like a great idea;)
Thank you great explanation.. 🙏
Thanks for the great feedback!
The subwoofers is going to be a 1000 watts subwoofers
Wow - what about the other drivers (mid and tweeter)?
@@KissAnalog so I can hook up the tweeters and midrange to this crossover too right
Yes you can. It is a 3 way so it has a bass, midrange, and tweeter output.
yeah hook that puppy up to some speakers to see how it sounds.
Thanks Michael - that’s what I want to do next;)
Edit : It's 1stborder crossover @90 degree phase shift ...NOT RECOMMENDED
2nd order or 4 the order are ESSENTIAL
Sir ...you ... DIVERTED from Reality.
Resistive LOAD ....!!! R load give No phase loading on AMP & impedance Matching problems are skipped
Disappointed 😭
Thanks for this conversation. A correction tho, a 1st order has a 45 degree shift and a second order is 90 degrees. This filter has a 2nd order in both the high pass and low pass filters. The mid range is at least a 4th order. Using a representative load like a 4 ohm or 8 ohm resistor is a way to compare filters. I’d be happy to try a load that is a better representation, but what would that be? I do not know a load that is representative of a speaker - other than a speaker itself, but then which do I select?
I really want to find a better way, so I am open for suggestions. I’m going to buy some speaker drivers to try, but this RUclips hobby is already expensive and very time consuming, but I like it so I’ll keep getting better. Thanks for the feedback - I really do appreciate it.
@@KissAnalog
Great sir ...
Thanks ,
Every inductor gives -90 degree (electrical phase shift to the signal ....of A total of 360 degree of a cycle )
While capacitor gives +90° ....
When we APPLY directly to A speaker .... Due to cross-magnatization , A lot of "Acoustic distortion may occur "....
(Because of extreme distortion in electrical phase shift)
Consequence to Non linear GAIN Curve
Hope ..... Can watch the same With Speaker Load 👍
Great work sir ...
Joining to your Patreon 👏
That is awesome feedback! Thank you and pease keep sharing your knowledge. I will buy some drivers to show a typical system. Should be interesting.