Fixing Vecna: Eve of Ruin - Spoil The Big Twist?

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  • Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024

Комментарии • 41

  • @negativeninja7465
    @negativeninja7465 3 месяца назад +11

    What I would do for this is at some point in the adventure, let the party know that The Crown of Lies is an item that exists, AND that it recently disapeared in the City of Sigil. So now they know that this item that lets you perfectly replicate a person is in play in the world which give credence to any possible suspicions the players may have of not just Mordenkainen, but all three of the wizards.

    • @kevinwheeler7427
      @kevinwheeler7427 3 месяца назад +2

      I really like that idea. To take it a step further, I’d also probably prepare alternative clues so that either of the three mages could be a hidden Kas, to check people who had it spoiled or who try to cheat the surprise with meta knowledge. Also would help add variety and replay ability.

  • @johncharlesceccherelli2876
    @johncharlesceccherelli2876 3 месяца назад +8

    5:37 The answer to your question there is “the book actually provides you with hints as to who Mordenkainen really is if you investigate some stuff in his quarters.” But that just affirms your point of the fact that the adventure is contradicting itself, and then even though you know something about it, you’re still effectively forced to follow the railroad quest until the adventure says it’s time for the reveal. That, or massively derail the campaign and scramble to try and think of a way to fix it. Overall, I find myself agreeing with you more and more. It’s not fun or rewarding for the players. We should just get rid of the Twist and come up with another way to involve K.

  • @MaximusNerdius2
    @MaximusNerdius2 3 месяца назад +4

    I don't understand ppl saying using a magical item is "lazy writing". No matter what WotC does, the spoilers would be out there and players would see them at some point. Heck if I'm honest I knew the "big secret" before even looking at the book at all, it was an obvious plot hook. Adventure books and even campaign settings have always just been a guide to help a DM, not a hard and fast this is what you must do. I've played and DM'd many different adventures and almost every time there are differences between the book and what actually happens, not just because the DM changes things but also because how players react. There's always gonna be room for improvement in these adventures, if all we do is continually criticize, eventually enough people will be driven away from the hobby that it won't exist. Just ask Battletech players how that works out in the long run.

  • @sheldonmorley
    @sheldonmorley 3 месяца назад +6

    "Let the adventure go in the direction your players are taking it, because that's the best way to have fun at the table."
    *smashes the Subscribe button*

  • @Darkwintre
    @Darkwintre 3 месяца назад +3

    From what I have heard I would have revealed Vecna hired the PCs to recover the seven parts of the rod and they end up competing with a rival working for Kas.
    Vecna is possessing Mordenkainen who asked the other two wizards to help him deal with the aftermath of his imprisonment within Ravenloft.
    The completed rod does restore Mordenkainen, but by restoring Vecna since he was sealed behind the Divine Gate by Vox Machina.
    So the rod FREES Vecna and his release spells certain doom for that world unless the PCs has help.
    That help is obviously Kas and the trick is to goad Vecna into following them back to Kas's realm who takes the rod banishing the PCs from his realm as Vecna and Kas square up for their rematch.
    Sorry but I'm not a fan of what i've been hearing so I'm hoping you do better!

  • @socialcommentary
    @socialcommentary 3 месяца назад +2

    Great ideas! Liked this one, too (have already subscribed and activated the all notifications bell)! Please keep the Vecna: Eve of Ruin ideas and suggestions coming; they're really helping to make my campaign better!

  • @lazerbeams2536
    @lazerbeams2536 3 месяца назад +3

    That item feels like the classic "well I'm bulletproof, so your gun can't hurt me" kinda bullshit we all did when we were 6 and playing with friends and siblings. I really hate it in an official adventure

  • @Nemnar7
    @Nemnar7 3 месяца назад +3

    Another video I've seen suggested to let mordenkainen be real at first, then let Kaz come in later for the swap, so if the PCs discover it later, you can still run with it.

    • @johncharlesceccherelli2876
      @johncharlesceccherelli2876 3 месяца назад

      I thought about this as well, but a) it’ll still require some heavy lifting on the DM’s part to develop WHY and HOW Mordenkainen was replaced by Kas (yes, Kas is a powerful vampire, but Mordenkainen is arguably stronger, canonically more cautious and suspicious, and is an actual spellcaster with access to crazy good magic, and b) it’s still the same twist that a player may have already learned about from societal osmosis. Better to just change it to Mordenkainen permanently and develop a different cool plot twist that somehow also involves Kas.

  • @GMsGarage
    @GMsGarage 3 месяца назад +2

    Honestly, I'm of a mind to just say that one of them is the betrayer Caz, and let it be any of the three. I like your suggestion too about having them suffer dreams from the Vecna link, which lets you plant reasons why any one of the three could be Caz. And then the reveal would be better.

  • @vathorean5007
    @vathorean5007 3 месяца назад +1

    Another thing is the inciting incident is a three-way wish spell by Tasha, Silverhand and Kaz, I feel like the connection of the wish spell wpuld cause these two npcs, who are intelligent, experienced and powerful would have some idea of the situation

  • @intelli-gent9863
    @intelli-gent9863 3 месяца назад +1

    I was very suspicious they would do something like this. Especially when they teased there would be a betrayal.
    For an adventure about the power of secrets, they certainly don't reward the players for being smart and figuring it out. Let alone allowing them to.
    The crown really is a "Nu-uh" to the players. It's like the writers are saying, "Noooo! But if you figure that out then my cool clever twist scene won't happen!"

  • @jasonlee4307
    @jasonlee4307 14 дней назад

    I think the real deciding factor is: Where is Mordenkainen now?
    A flavorful option could be to have suspicious players discover rumors of his capture or disappearance, thus leading to his discovery and release (lots of possibilities here). If tied artfully into the main plot, it could lead to a powerful ally as well as trigger the race to capture the Rod pieces before the revealed Kas gets them (as suggested in your previous video) but with the help of the freed Mage.

  • @MartinNelson
    @MartinNelson 3 месяца назад +1

    Watching your thoughts was quite interesting and got me thinking here. I bought the adventure book because I wanted to see how WotC wrote a high level adventure. My experience has been that with 5e specifically the higher levels either become incredibly wacky or just never get reached. If the anecdotal information is true and most parties never reach beyond level 12...maybe the crown is a good example of what is (in my opinion only) the weakest aspect of the system.
    The crown is written specifically to counteract the incredible power that player characters end up with. By level 12 most characters have resistances, abilities, immunitites, and access to spells that make it difficult to ever really conceal or challenge a player character efficiently.
    To be clear, I'm not saying that player characters becoming super-powered is a bad thing. It's hysterical to me. But I can see how the (again my own opinion) unskilled writers at WotC could have made this mistake. It's a good idea to have an NPC disguised and manipulating behind the scenes. However, given the array of spells at level 10 than can see right through most concealments you have to fix that problem. So they invent the crown of lies. As you eloquently put it, this kinda feels like a cheap 'gotcha' moment.
    Watching my Monday and Sunday groups (Level 17 and 16 respectively) work their way through my own worlds I've seen just how well players put things together and how disapppointing it is for them to encounter something that their high level spells don't work on. For example at this level they're suspsicious of everything. So if I put a magic wall of force energy blocking their way they've naturally assumed that at this level there must be a secret to unbar their way so they went exploring. Dispel Magic in my mind was all that was going to be needed to topple the wall and continue on their way. Instead they've learned more world lore and I'm hoping will kick themselves for not trying that simple low level spell first. Beyond that I hope that the lore and feat they picked up from the side quest they went on was of interest to them. Had they just dispel magic the wall of force first however...yeah that would have been cool too. It's their story.
    Given that most DMs I've talked to all have similar thoughts at these kind of levels I am left wondering if any of the writers who worked on this adventure ever actually played an adventure Level 1-20...I kinda feel like they didn't...but that's guessing at unknowables.

  • @professord6968
    @professord6968 3 месяца назад +1

    They major proboem is that we know absolutly zilch about what s Mordy doing at the moment Kas disguised as him.
    Worse the Crown works due proximity: if you have doubt about Mordy personality you dismiss it if you are there.
    Now the Pc will go to Oerth at some point, Oerth the place that bound 2/3 of the main charachters in the story.
    And you assume that they do not search the Co8 advice on a matter of such important scale or get more info on Vecna?
    Whole plot is blatantly inconsistent with things happening cause Wotc said so.

  • @HS_TheWriter-ij3xq
    @HS_TheWriter-ij3xq 3 месяца назад +2

    So everything Kas says is perceived as true. But what if he gives the party false info that the party already knew to be false?

  • @TheBahamaat
    @TheBahamaat 3 месяца назад +2

    I think I really think the whole plot just isn't for me. It seems Kas and Vecna don't feel like they have been described in the past, and the lack of the hand and eye, but shoe-horning in the old Greyhawk Rod of Seven Parts seem equally odd. Why not have Kas hunting for the hand and eye to use sympathetic magic against Vecna, hand them over to Orcus so Orcus can maybe force the notorious lich-god to kneel and use his divine power in the service of the Abyss' lord of the undead? PCs get mixed up in this, first trying to help Kas to obtain these artifacts to destroy them (Kas cites his rebellion against Vecna as one of free will vs magical domination), then against Kas when Vecna reveals what Orcus could make him do if Kas wins - then Orcus betrays Kas to keep him out of the big bag role, and the whole thing could be a metaphor for fighters vs wizards, free will vs the threat of magic overriding that control, etc. Tasha comes in due to her life experiences with Baba Yaga and Graz't (both master manipulators but who got hoodwinked by the witch), and Alustriel has her experiences being one of the Seven Sisters, a Chosen of Mystra, a pawn in various divine struggles against Mystra, Elminster, the Dead Three, the Avatar War, etc.
    Seems this epic, hyped, "breadcrumbs planted since 2014" adventure ultimately seems like just another same-old BBEG chase/fight and could have done so much more with the potential of the settings, the key characters, etc.

  • @BMHume
    @BMHume 3 месяца назад +2

    2:35 ...maybe the writers of the adventure remembered a player at their table who used Wish for the most petty thing, just to spite the DM or his group, and this is them nodding their head to him/her 😄

    • @intelli-gent9863
      @intelli-gent9863 3 месяца назад

      Yeah, it's absolutely hilarious how they created a magic item that has the sole purpose of ensuring Kaz does not get found out by any means necessary. 😂

  • @stuartmiller2526
    @stuartmiller2526 3 месяца назад +1

    Can you let it be real M, but K has serious leverage (over loved ones, the world, etc) getting M to do his bidding? Maybe stick AND carrot for M, with interests aligned?
    M is cunning enough to hide it and pull it off.

  • @fatrunner
    @fatrunner 3 месяца назад

    I plan on leaving a few breadcrumbs. At least one character will be coming from curse of Strahd so they will have met mordenkainen already. He wont know them of course and he will brush over it as forgetful arrogance at first.
    I will also make the players find the sword of kas at some point and "mordenkainen" will show a great interest in it. If they confront him he will escape into a portal. I will be sure to keep him in a separate room from alustrial and tasha for most of the adventure so they are not around to overpower him.

  • @kquixotic
    @kquixotic 3 месяца назад +1

    Babe, wake up, a new Wizards & Wordslingers video just "dropped."

  • @Mr_Welch
    @Mr_Welch 3 месяца назад +1

    The other problem they're going to have is how do they know who this guy even is? The module doesn't establish a link between the villain and the players. They're not even from the same plane. He's going to rip off the mask and they're not going to have any idea who he is or why he's important to the story

    • @wizardsling
      @wizardsling  3 месяца назад +1

      yeah, they're leaving it up to the DM to write and pass on that info. Maybe through some of those Vecna's Link scenes

    • @Mr_Welch
      @Mr_Welch 3 месяца назад +2

      @@wizardsling this module commits so many writing sins.

    • @sakizuyaayame7947
      @sakizuyaayame7947 3 месяца назад +1

      @@wizardsling why in the ancient die vecna die players and dm received full lore about vecna kas and iuz from the module itself, what changed? the answer is lazi

  • @darcyw156
    @darcyw156 3 месяца назад +3

    Not sure this is a campaign I will ever run, I have already use the rod of seven in a home brew. It was awesome, and I don't know if WOTC can stand up to it. Plus I don't like Vecna the way they have made him. Anyway, great vid!

  • @frostdragonking5336
    @frostdragonking5336 3 месяца назад +1

    Wasn't there a character in the model who suspected Morden being strange?

  • @BigFrakingSword
    @BigFrakingSword 3 месяца назад +1

    If you purposely steer your Players to finding out the twist then you are in fact still railroading them. The only difference, they think they "voluntarily" got on the train. Which is of course the secret to good railroading. But it is still railroading and given your apparent issues with the concept (even though railroading is unavoidable and especially so in a pre-written), you perhaps shouldn't recommend railroading B as an alternative to railroading A after lamenting at the base concept so much.

  • @TiberiusX
    @TiberiusX 3 месяца назад

    There's instructions in the module for mordy's room and they're are a number of clues that is not him

  • @Judas_Iscariote
    @Judas_Iscariote 3 месяца назад

    Fixing this module: Throw it at a fireplace, cut the images you like and paste it in the front of your gm screen.
    - This is the 50th anniversary adventure of the brand. They dusted off the canon enemy.
    - They kept pushing the plot that Vecna had something to do with the black obelisks for 10 years to date.
    - It’s the first module that will take you to level 20 in 5e (there’s another, Oracle of War from Eberron in the Adventurer’s League, avoid the shame of V:EoR and opt for that one, it's super epic).
    - Now, as a DM, are you seriously thinking about preparing a high-level campaign to run this? It’s a tremendous mess, not worth the effort of leveling up characters for the crap you’re going to narrate. Lower it to levels 6-10 and I might believe you.
    Apparently, the development team has no idea who the hell Vecna is. They said, "Hey, it’s a lich, how cool, in the monster manual on such page it says it’s an undead wizard, let’s make him the main villain of the adventure that so-and-so was tweaking from 1e."
    I wish WotC would read this, I’d say:
    "Dude, you fired the wrong people. You have infiltrators who want to destroy the brand. Look at the credits page of this module and you’ll find all those traitors together. Fire them too."
    ______________
    SPOILERS
    ______________
    - The Book of Vile Darkness doesn’t appear.
    - The Hand of Vecna doesn’t appear.
    - The Eye of Vecna doesn’t appear.
    - The Sword of Kas isn’t mentioned.
    - There are no black obelisks.
    - It doesn’t continue the story up to now.
    - It’s a railroad adventure.
    - The cultists are very easy to defeat.
    - The encounter with Vecna is just a cameo.
    - Kas is not relevant to the plot.
    - The three most important wizards in D&D show up to do nothing.
    And I could go on... But the worst crime they ever commited:
    They made Strahd Von Zarovich, a random encounter at the turn of a wall in a random dungeon.
    Did they really pay these people to make this mess?

  • @gameknightsdemesnes
    @gameknightsdemesnes 3 месяца назад +1

    Where is the _real_ Mordy while this adventure is going on?

    • @wizardsling
      @wizardsling  3 месяца назад +1

      good question. i don't think the book addresses that

  • @JoeSmith-ug9hu
    @JoeSmith-ug9hu 3 месяца назад

    I feel 110% differently from you...
    The best shows and movies always have plot twists...not allowing plot twist to happen because it feels unfair - that's lame as well... I feel like that would inspire conviction on completing their task...and at the same time, it adds another plot line.... that chapter of the betrayer is a pretty cool scene...How is it railroading if a magic item allows for it?
    I don't see the issue you are presenting at all.....
    Well is it railroading if a BBEG uses a legendary magic item to manipulate PCs? No.

    • @wizardsling
      @wizardsling  3 месяца назад

      who said I'm against plot twists?

  • @Mr_Boyer
    @Mr_Boyer 3 месяца назад

    Yes. The Crown is pretty airtight. But the book literally spells out how the players can find physical evidence within the Sanctum that they can bring to Alustriel or Tasha to prove Mordenkaiden isn't who he says he is. This is the writers telling you the DM and the players that not every problem can be solved with magic. Instead of just casting a spell, the players have to... interact with the game world and put in a little bit of effort.
    But if you ignore all of that, then yeah it's lazy writing.

  • @torinmccabe
    @torinmccabe 3 месяца назад +4

    *the crown of railroading