I don't get the notion that people believe men that buy OF are these healthy, conscious individuals, that are able to take sexual stimulus after sexual stimulus in top of getting to chat with the creators without any repercussions at all.
Yeah, no shot the guys paying for dick ratings and "gf experience" messages are mentally healthy. The other part that is fucked is that it's very often not even the creator replying back to them and I don't think that is made clear to the subscribers
@@VladStopTalkingThat was was insane. I can only assume that he’s making the case that because OF subs skew older male it must then follow that they’re probably more socially adapt. I just don’t buy it.
Not exploitive: Owning a liquor store and selling alcohol to sober customers Exploitive: Urging people who are clearly inebriated to come into your store and buy alcohol Seems like this was Erudite’s argument in a nutshell
When are drunk people urged to go to the liquor store and buy alchohol? They choose to go there and with that it becomes not exploitative, that doesnt mean that its not bad for society just that the person selling it cannot be accused of exploitation.
@Coolerstetth.32 Is all sex when you've had a drink rape then? We are adults, we have agency. Also can you explain to me how bars work in this world you have imagined? Once ive had a drink i cant buy another drink because i cant consent to it?
Farha did more harm than good for her side by being an actual example of an exploitative creator. The follow on question from Alex should haven been: If that guy who's lost his house on your content kept spending more on you would you do anything to stop it? I think her answer would essentially be yes, she'd probably say: "well he's getting something of value and it's his decision blah blah" which is basically yeah, I'd let him destroy his life and take him for everything he's worth
Yes but that is only so obvious because she is honest in her ignorance, that is rare! imagine if everyone debated from honesty, instead of who is the best orator. The world would be a better place.
@@cheapbruh9778 maybe picking Farha was Destiny was trying to do the debate on hard mode. Invite someone who literally personifies the opposing sides argument
Im not a supporter of only fans at all, but the guy in that hypothetical the guys has a lot more problems going on than OF if hes ruined his life that much. He'd very likely ruin his life on any number of vices, but it happened to be OF
@@TheBaconBasket1 I think everyone agrees gambling addicts have a problem, the question is whether it's ethical to consciously exploit people with that problem by playing into their addiction
Watched this on Destiny's channel the other day. You were the only reasonable voice in all of this lol, thank you. It felt fairly disingenuous of Destiny and Farha to compare OF work to being a waitress. Maybe it's more complicated than it seems, because Destiny is usually pretty good faith. To me though, it seems so obvious that those two things are not analagous for very intuitive reasons.
Nah, they are 100% in the right. Men deprived on intimacy can be exploited anywhere where a woman is kind to them. Be it in a mall kiosk, restaurant, bar, strip club or OF.
@@BennettMatsIt’s true that anyone can be exploited anywhere but this is a nothing counter argument. No one goes to Denny’s with the express purpose of rizzing up the lady that serves you pancakes. And unlike Twitch content creators, OF’s models paywall to get access to them. Most of the comparisons Farah and Destiny were making were asymmetrical. The arguments basically hinge on the idea that the same dude who pays money for a fantasy with a OF model would probably just end up falling in love with their Uber Eats delivery driver because LAMAOOO they’re a commer. The environments aren’t the same the expectations aren’t the same.
I mean no economic trade can happen in an emotional VACUUM, and the emotional intentions and state of dealing with a barista is very different from OF patronage, so it's a bit disingenuous to compare it to being a waitress. But then the argument comes down to the extremely subjective state of emotionality going on in someone's head. You'd have to agree to some emotional metric where the level of emotional exploitation surpasses a threshold where you would argue it is bad. Allowing tiny to exist in his super autistic computer brain space means he can just fight you off on the margins, on the question itself being asked, because he can fall back on; "Intuition isn't fact, bro."
@@ELDENLORD89 if anyone can be exploited anywhere then why single out only fans? This is the same problem that legislators ran into when they tried to ban violent video games. A judge would say, yes these video games are violent but so is tv, films, comics and books. If you want to make restrictions to OF or violent media, you have to justify it in some way.
OF work is no different than any other sex worker, which is no different than a drug dealer. They all make money off of other people’s addictions. If Farha was born pre social media, she would at best a gold digger and worst a sex worker. She, herself, has said many times how she’s the black sheep of the family because she’s useless. Why she thinks she’s smart just because she’s able to sell her body online is beyond me. I don’t understand how stupid people think. 🤷🏻♂️
I like how Kyla answers every question. It really helps curb my frustration with debates like these (extreme analogies and hypotheticals) where nobody wants to concede or bite.
@@sassycaterpillar6631 Farha never answers a single question, Alex was terrible but when he asked "would you suggest your son use only fans" her answer was "I wouldnt suggest he use pornhub either" and then look at Destiny for a bail out or stare blindly and not acknowledge a question posed.
2:05 The guy in the black shirt who sheepishly raised his hand for the "not exploitation" vote was one of the pro-socialism voters from the previous debate. "Everything is exploitation except actual exploitation, which is ok."
Didn't expect Destiny to say that casinos aren't exploitative just to win an onlyfans debate. He was super bad faith the entire time.... as for Farha, I don't even know where to start.. Maybe don't have an onlyfans girl debate the morality of onlyfans? It's kind of like going to a public relations specialist to debate the morality of the company they work for...
I'm pretty sure Destiny used to work in a casino before he became a pro-gamer/streamer... He is also friends with a bunch of OF girls. I'm going to say it wasn't unexpected.
Never heard of you before this debate but you totally killed it. I mean I thought you were playing chess while everyone else was playing Checkers. Nice job.
People vastly underestimate how effectively and covertly girls can lead guys on. Especially to guys deprived from affection. I noticed after dealing with a girl who likes having guys simp for her, right after I came from an isolated pandemic rut, so my guard was down. Destiny is probably a bit out of touch on this.
There’s a notable difference between a male being manipulated by a female he happens to know personally and a male who subscribes to a content creator on Onlyfans or generally speaking seeks the services of a sex worker. The latter know that this exchange is transactional and parasocial in the case of virtual interactions and most online sex workers are candid about that prospect. It’s usually only escorts who are willing to meet men personally and pretend to be their partner insofar as they are being financially compensated. I’m not denying how a pornographic addiction comes to be but to entirely infantilize and victimize male consumers of pornography is contra productive. Instead we must teach both men and women how to evaluate the potential repercussions of their actions
@@offlineuser and I am usually good at avoiding the prior situation, normally I know better than let myself catch feelings for a girl like that. But again I was vulnerable, my judgement was compromised. Don't you think consumers can also find themselves in a vulnerable state, and therefore get into something they otherwise wouldn't? The big difference is that the Onlyfans creators have more incentive to keep you hooked, as it's very profitable.
@@tonywoutrs I’m sorry about that. I’d say that a lot of people’s social skills were compromised during the pandemic due to enforced isolation, as you mentioned earlier. Our consumerist culture generally incentivizes people to develop unhealthy habits and addictions. Statistically speaking, for example, a considerable amount of morbidly obese people in the US have been sexually molested during their childhood, i.e. used food as a coping mechanism afterwards. It’s not necessarily wrong to ask if and to what extent corporate interests enable these debilitating addictions but that question exists in a broader socioeconomic context. I don’t think there’s an easily comprehensible answer. It’s ultimately up to us to take care of ourselves and others within our local communities because neither consumerism nor the individuals who benefit from it are particularly concerned with moral obligations of any sort
I've only gotten through the first 25 minutes so far, and it seems like Destiny's fundamental flaw is not acknowledging inelastic demand exists while also believing demand drives supply (it doesn't). He also personally benefits from a societal dynamic where a man's value is zero by default and is only raised by status; as a renowned streamer that puts him in the upper percentile which means he will be in demand. Farha also has a vested interest in defending her work from being called exploitative. It's like having a McDonald's rep on to ask if fast food is unhealthy. Edit: At the 50 minute mark, still reeling from Destiny making the comparison between OF and parasocial relationships with restaurant wait staff. This is the dumbest, most bad faith comparison. No normal person actually believes they're going to a restaurant for the intimacy with the staff.
If Farha was so confident in her stance, she wouldn’t be scared to test the theory. Try it. Do a meet up. See how many show up. For science. Put the disclaimer, if you think it won’t change anything then there’s no risk. The only reason to argue against trying it is she is afraid to lose $$$ by being more honest
She also wouldn't outright state she wouldn't date a subscriber because she knows if her subscribers saw that a significant enough percentage of subscribers would either unsubscribe or at least spend less.
Men go on OF to escape from reality, not to get a disappointing dose of it, the vast majority of men already know OF isn't a dating site, a big red banner is a punch to the face to men, it kills the mood.
The benefits of subbing to OF study reminds me of the studies back in the day that said cigarettes are healthy, mercury is safe for fillings, and lead paint is the safest paint ever
Farah suggesting that OF is helpful to to society but shows an unwillingness to suggest that help to her own family members who may fall in to the category of men she describes OF as being helpful for was unbelievable. Same again when they were trying to suggest there isnt an atmosphere of false hope from subscribers that they might be the one only for Farah to give a deafening silence upon being asked if shed sleep with her subscribers only to give a non-commital "its possible" response. Destiny was also hardcore coping in this. I genuinely dont think ill tune in to anything he produces when it comes to the topic anymore. Welldone, Erudite. You did great.
Thinking about it… debates are overrated and counter-intuitive in their premise alone. It setups a black/white mentality where you’re less likely to give any credence because you’re on one “side” and don’t want to “lose” the debate. If something is setup as a “discussion”, which doesn’t have the preface of “winning” and “losing”, it opens up more chances to have a more natural conversation, and more open to changing your mind (or acknowledging different points) and less focused on saying anything just to “win”. Not full proof, and depends on the people in said conversation (I think Destiny and Farrah are too biased for it to change… don’t know much about Alex to say). But more “discussions/conversations” might help as opposed to “debates” where people go in with the intention of being the loudest and using whatever tactics to “win”.
@@mrshmuga9 If you can't concede when you're actually wrong, it's probably indicative that you're either defending the wrong position or you're not actually smart enough to have a debate in the first place. Never conceding anything is the behavior of a very smooth brain.
@@Blurredborderlines yeah I think Debate has become sport now whereas people have forgot that debate actually has a goal and a point. If you never concede even when your wrong, and that wrong can be tested by analogous examples then there is no actual debate, because the point of a debate is to get to a truth, even if the truth is conceded from a lack of understanding.
No one is arguing that, I’m saying if you are a grown man and you go to a corn website to find love then when the situation doesn’t work out you should take ACCOUNTABILITY. Keep in mind this is not a kid but a fully grown and mature man. Do stupid things and win stupid prizes is a good rule of thumb.
@@HK-vn1xj the idea that just because you're over 21 years old, it means you automatically have perfect control over your desires and impulses, is kinda silly. Alex made a good point that selling drugs to an addict IS exploitative even if they're a "consenting adult".
@@Thematic2177 I never said that. I said if your 21 years old you should take responsibility and accountability for your actions. Not be perfect. Drugs and corn cannot be compared, mainly because the desire of corn goes away post nut, the desire for drugs never goes away without professional intervention, also the withdrawal symptoms can leave you hospitalized. One other thing is that corn is cheep and drugs are extremely expensive, illegal and dangerous to obtain. Corn is legal, cheep, safe and desire goes away after few minutes. Drugs are the complete opposite on every aspect on a much bigger scale. So comparing corn addiction and drug addiction is illogical because one is too dangerous and one is too safe.
@@HK-vn1xjit's not that they go there to find love, i imagine even the most desperate men know what they are getting going in, but over time the fake intimacy and chats could alter their perception of the dynamics of the relationship. I can only imagine its reinforced when women like Farha refuse to set clear boundaries because they know breaking the delusion entirely could effect their income.
@@telise8730 Men want fake intimacy, that’s why they signed up in the first place, that’s the whole point of the app. So hitting them with a dose of depressing reality is only going to turn them off and ruin the mood. Your completely missing the point.
One thing that didn't brought up that I think should have. Is Onlyfan models and other professions where the woman either hides their relationship status or flat out lies about it. Because if an Onlyfans model is lying about relationship status and heavily flirting with a guy. It's absolutely playing into some type of manipulation.
Refunds seem like too much of an expectation, even if I think Destiny doing so for some donations is laudible. What seems much harder to argue against is cutting people off once they display this behavior. This is an explicit legal requirement for alcohol vendors. Even where such safeguards are not legally required (e.g. gambling addicts), most people at least agree that catering to them is exploitative.
That comparison is very weak because people can easily die by drinking too much alcohol, and most sentiment around gaming is mostly performative. Of course, we impose limits to the amount one can drink, it's much like how we passed laws against drunk driving. Everyone hates casinos, and few condemn sports betting, even fewer condemn gacha games, but the use of that (gaming addicts) as an example, ironically exemplifies the flaw in your logic. That being, inconsistent standards.
@@gameplayerone3917 What would the end result be of someone spending all of their money on an OF girl only for her to ghost him once he can't pay her anymore? As much as it's his fault, who had the power in that dynamic, the simp or the OF worker?
@@gameplayerone3917 the casino has booths when you walk in for gambling addict the apps constantly display disclaimers and offer help for gambling addics
this was one of your best debates by far. its interesting that you as a woman seem to understand how this exploits men and were able to articulate your views.
And most strip-clubs will kick you out when you start behaving like a straight up stalker creep, not try to milk you for more money now that they know you're a good mark to get more money out of.
did this chick just say you cant have a porn addiction????? I got addicted to porn at freaking 6 and still have issues after trying to stop....im so sick of this bro, they just want to make money off of people that either have a hard time getting sex, or are super shy. this is wrong bro
when you go to a casino the first thing you see is a black booth that says "have a gambling addiction? get help" and when you log in on the apps you get gambling addiction messages and disclaimers
It's so strange, because I think that Farha is probably a really good person, but wow, she's either really dishonest or incredibly naïve. I'm really glad that the red pill is falling of a cliff, because watching her talk her is like red pill NAPALM. I found the study she was referencing as well, it was of 335 people... of the 420,000,000 monthly active users, they surveyed 335. I'm not sure that comes close to being an effective study, but to be fair, I don't know a ton about the process.
@@HT-jj5sx Yeah it depends a lot more on how the data was collected and analyzed. A lot of survey data are trash and have horrible endogeneity problems but you don't really need a huge sample size unless you're trying use a super low margin of error or high confidence level. Theoretically they definitely could have squeezed some sound inferences out of that sample size though
Farah is wrong about everything. She knows she only has that job because of lonley people. She should acknowledge this and move on. I mean theres something fundamentally wrong if you're paying for porn.
Before the internet, the average man *did* pay for their porn- if they didn’t find it in their dad’s room. With OF, they’re paying for access to the particular girl (sometimes, like a virtual strip club).
@@LoneWulf278I call that cope. There were way more social gatherings back then to meet people (unlike now). And getting pr0n was much harder. If you were underage, you couldn’t just pull up a browser tab and quickly find thousands of options (if you even had internet). You had to find, steal or sneak something. And stores aren’t gonna sell anything to children or they’d face jail time. As an adult… it still was not easy. You had to physically go to a specialty store and pay for something. It doesn’t sound like much, but there’s mental barriers there. You have to take the initiative to leave the house to go there, and also a possible layer of shame for thinking about doing it or seeing someone you know there. A level of exposing yourself to the world. Now, depending where your computer/phone is, you don’t even have to leave your bed. The entire process is completely private, and there’s no limit restricting you (based on inventory, money, or shame). With the internet, you can have as much free content as you want, and near instantaneously. You can argue people had “some” amount of access before, but there were barriers limiting it severely or keeping it in check. It’s not even in the same ballpark then (80’s or earlier) as it has been for the last 20 years.
@@LoneWulf278He’s talking about the porn of today not 40 years ago. You’re not paying for access to a girl on OF, you’re paying for a monthly subscription of content behind a wall.
@@WhoBlah21 But the subscriptions often include a pay-per-message fee/tip. A lot of the appeal and novelty is that you can interact with them and have more feedback or access other than visual. That’s the subject of concern- potentially unstable people thinking they are more important than they really are and being exploited. My comment is that strip clubs work the same way, more or less.
"She knows she only has that job because of lonley people" The funny thing here is, no she doesn't. Watch any talk between her and Destiny, she's just actually delusional. Even Destiny when he talked about how he would've been better off without a partner in the debate mentioned Farha's engagement with the issue is sociopathic specially regarding the refund question.
OnlyFans is embarrassing, it's definitely not a "net positive". Seeing women selling nudes for a few dollars, and men watching 10 second clips isn't positive for anyone.
It's not the nude selling that's destructive, it's the manipulation. Anyone that can say it's positive for anyone but the seller with a straight face doesn't belong in a debate.
Yeah after seeing this debate I think the issue is that sex work tends to attract malicious type of people who could manipulate their way into their costumers hearts and right into their wallets. Not say that OF models/site are all evil. But there does exist those with bad intentions.
I just think that at some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. The ugly truth is that they provide what a lot of men want. Obviously not all, but it generates so much profit for a reason. It’s mostly just a sexual thing, not emotional. Most of the men aren’t crazy or sick, just bored with their marriage.
theres a lot of them that advertise on twitter with tweets that younger people might fall for, like "PS5 or me" or "wanna play fortnite" weird stuff like that. thats malicious AF. like are you tryna get young boys to buy your stuff? thats really weird.
Dr K had a video on this. "How onlyfans monetizes lonely men". That would be relevant, although this has little to do with debate angle. It's good to know how things can be.
First off, the study cited by Farha, that what, 80%+ of OF subs are married men, does not equate to happy relationships, NOR does it prove anything about improving relationships. You can be married, with a shitty relationship, I know several men who are. And along with that note, you can, in fact, be married, and still feel lonely if you have a partner who becomes distant after marriage, that's not unheard of, and this can happen with both men, and women. All of this can happen with both men and women. Marriage =//= happiness Marriage =//= healthy relationship The marriage study proves absolutly nothing, because we further need to know what percentage of those married men, are also HAPPY in their relationship, or have had their relationship improved by having the OF sub, and until we have these numbers, that marriage statistic means nothing on its own.
24:06 “It’s what you’re expecting so it’s not exploitative.” Not true. It’s not just if the consumer is aware of the risks, it’s also _the seller._ Someone selling hardcore drugs is knowingly selling an addictive product, with the hopes that person gets addicted so they become physiologically and psychologically dependant on them. Thus becoming a recurring revenue source. This concept that the seller isn’t at any fault, is a new and stupid concept for exploitative people to feel better sleeping at night. They didn’t just “accidentally” produce this material, market it, and sell it out of nowhere.
Does Only Fans allow ratings and reviews for creators on the platform so that the customers can talk to each other about the experiences had with the creator? If not, it holds the door open for exploitation. The business is a business like any other. Ratings, reviews, the ability for consumers to share their experiences both good and bad are tools that keeps businesses from engaging in exploitative behavior. You can look up the odds for any game in a casino. You can talk to other people to better get informed about what you're getting in to. You can't do this with "Kelly, OF model".
It absolutely exploits and is predatory towards lonely men. Ill also say the only thing more predatory than personalized dms on OF to profit off of loneliness is the whole girlfriend experience thing.
It is not exploitive because when men use onlyfans it’s not for normal corn, it’s for personal connection and intimacy with the creator. That’s the whole point, that’s why onlyfans exists. Onlyfans exists not for normal corn but FOR the girlfriend experience. Sex work is SUPPOSED to be exploitive, that’s the nature of it. It’s not made for RESPECT for neither the creator nor the consumer. It’s supposed to be like this or else it wouldn’t work. If your a grown man that is lonely, And you go on onlyfans looking for a relationship you should be punished to some degree. By victimizing men, your are taking out the “accountability” part. And by doing that you are making sure that person doesn’t learn from his mistakes which is counterintuitive to accountability. If you make a mistake you should expect punishment to a certain degree is a good rule of thumb.
@@HK-vn1xj well the girlfriend experience thing is super predatory and NEEDS to be shamed. Aside from that both creator AND buyer should be punished for this nonsense ngl but hey 🤷🏽♂️ and also... if something is just for exploitation then maybe it shouldn’t exist.
@@theunknown879 It’s not predatory and should not be banned because it is consensual and expected. Nobody walks into a casino or plays the lottery with hope that they’ll get rich of it. It is consensual and expected so it’s not predatory. The creator and buyer are already being punished, the creators self image and body is being ruined and the buyer’s wallet is being ruined. It is not predatory because you agree to the terms and conditions of the site before using it. So therefore completely ethical.
@@Blurredborderlines She has consequences but under your shell of bias you cannot see them. Here’s a list: *Ruined digital footprint. * Ruined chance at future relationships * Ruined self respect *Ruined respect from others *desensitized bonding and intimacy * negative view towards men * STIs Your completely missing the point.
Some people go on videochat rooms for intimacy that can possibly lead towards a good healthy engagement, nothing bad in that dynamic of being interested in having a relationship preceeding of a good intimate discussion if it is consensual and decent.
Im excited to watch video, and its interesginv to see that kyla holds a similar position as i do on ths topic! IMO, while I agree with destiny that happenstance doesn't itself suggest eploitation, the combination of intent from the "seller" and a reasonability to decline from the "buyer" (NOT understanding of circumstances) that determines exploitation. The example involving applebees isnt exploitation because the model of the business doesn't incorporate the targeting and takong advantage of people without a family to help them with food, and even it did mosf people have access to much cheaper food and the ability to make their own. Price hiking a resource like water when abundant simply due to demand is exploitation. People need water to live and will pay what they must to live. Similarly, casinos are typically exploitative as they use psychology to illicit addictive properties in their games. OF content is exploitative as it often involves manipulative practices to keep it's mlst prevelant buyers interested. People pay because people have social needs that they arent having met in their personal life. OF creators take advantage of this to make money while simultaneously exaxurbating the problem for the individual.
This was the biggest W i've seen from Kyla so far. Destiny as much as i like him, is rather incohesive when it comes to this, likely cause his bias from Melina. But i still disagree that there is any realiable study about the demographic of onlyfans users. I can't for the life of me think of a single dude that isn't a miserable loser that uses it over pornhub or prostitutes.
The fact that Farha can't even say it's bad if one of her donors gives her a ridiculous amount of money and says they took out a loan or refinanced their mortgage for it that that would be concerning and require pumping the brakes or if they have manic episode and the girl just happily accepts the money from that and possibly keeps that going has any room for excuses is telling that she is exactly the kind of problematic OF creator. Destiny had no problem admitting it happens and that if that were the case he would feel bad and want to refund it if they were in trouble, but somehow Farha just can't say it. Just like he can't say she would never date a subscriber. Just like how she calls her 20 minute paid voice conversations dates without a disclaimer.
Excellent debate. I will say that I think you could have probably been more effective if you didn't have your partner that you debated with; it felt like at times he jumped in to attempt gotcha questions that derailed some of the responses you could have gotten and actually built a dialogue off of. I will say as well that while I normally like Destiny and his takes, he had some that I disagreed with. Most of the debate felt like an incongruence between your belief that we have a responsibility to do more to take care of dumabasses in our society while the other very side very much felt like it was either "the number of dumbasses is so low/non-existent that this consideration is moot" (Farha) or "while there are dumbasses, they are not our responsibility to this degree" (Destiny). I think this would be an interesting debate to have again with individuals where their financial well-being is not tied to this structure. The biggest point of contention that I had with Destiny in this debate was his seeming lack of motivation and understanding of the actual problem. At 1:26:42 where you discussed adding a disclaimer as a possible solution, his response was "I completely disagree with that" with the underlying tone of 'Because this doesn't work, we shouldn't try this' versus the more productive 'While I don't believe this will work, we could add it in and see if it has a positive impact.' There was also at 1:31:15 the discussion of OnlyFans being a new phenomenon. Destiny brushes this off as it actually not being a new phenomenon with being able to buy intimacy for money going back for a long time. I think the meaningful difference we are beginning to see is with the digital era, we can now buy affirmations, mistake it for intimacy AND the person selling that product does not even have to individually interact with the buyer.
I wasn't going to watch this debate but I stayed watching because of this young lady. I'm pleasantly impressed with her in this. Fist time I've seen or heard her. This is a subject I do need to be more interested in since I have a son and I should worry about him taken advantage of in this way. But he seems to be having the teen life I had growing up having an easy time with females and being friends with everyone and just not having the loner type issues so many other young men have. But still, things change and something like this def could happen to him so he should be prepared to battle his inner simp.
I really don't think Farha should be on these types of debates. Her points either weren't good or incredibly callous. Even destiny tbh could barely hold his side imo
I think she was terrible for her side of the argument because she IS the very type of OF creator Kyla is concerned about and apparently despite trying to prove she is a-ok is just proving Kyla right with almost everything she said. Destiny wasn't making great points either, but she just tanked their side despite Kyla having to deal with PlayingWithFire as her partner. It's telling that she still managed to win despite having him talking over her trying to make good points non-stop. With Destiny making weak points and Farha scoring unintentional own goals it wasn't that hard to come out as the winners of the debate.
Was a decent conversation when you could speak, Alex wasnt constantly interjecting & yelling over everyone, Destiny wasnt soy raging because he apparently has never debated before & is regressing into a spaz that flips out when the conversation picks up, & Farha & you could actually respond to one another. Destiny has way too much history debating & doing in person conversations idk why he activated super Saiyan debate bro so he could flip out constantly over a conversation this long its like he hasn't learned anything. You did a good job being as patient as you were.
Destiny seemed way off the mark in this conversation. He seemed so determined to 'win' this debate that he didn't engage with some otherwise very reasonable points from Kayla
22:50 Well no they didn't put disclaimers on cigarettes that its cool, they made a butt load of adverts in the 50' 60' disclaiming that its cool to smoke
I support sex workers right to work safely, but ngl they tend to not be the best people. Super cynical and often times very predatory. And i think farah has an average opinion on this issue, and because it's normalized by OF creators she thinks her position is nornal. Also, fin-dom specifically seems like potentially high risk for self harm.
Everytime Destiny and Farah spoke I just wanted to interrupt and say it doesn't matter... it doesn't match the definition of exploitation. Exploitation is using someone or a group for your own gain. If streamers were targeting groups with a product in order to make something self interesting like money, they would be exploitative. If an onlyfans girl were to make it to share her body with the world and give all the money to the hungry, it wouldn't be exploitation, most however are doing it exploitatively. Oh and also, even if the men loved it, it would still be exploitation! Ever heard of an exploit in a game? It doesn't hurt the game. It's a weak point that's targeted to get ahead. That's the whole argument and theres no refuting it.
Hearing discussions like these are depressing of just how badly disposable guys seem to be when compared to the opposite sex. Of just how their just this 'i don't care' attitude with the emotional problems of guys who are going through some tough shit, sometimes i wonder if we will have this same noncholantness when it's reversed. I'll be honest, after seeing the deterioration of healthy relationships in this last decade or so have made me not suprised that cunts like Tate can garner such a large following or Peterson becoming more cynical. These debates to me almost always seem to devolve too 'men did this, women do that' and the whole conversation sounding like wanting thier cake and eating it too. I just don't know anymore. But the mere fact that it gotten to the point that it's better to talk to some random OF model than to take the bullet, is really fucking sad to me...
It does make me wonder if men have always been disposable (excluding wartime), or it’s a newer thing as the result of the sexual Revolution and divorce laws. Either way, we’re in sad times, and people obliviously wonder why men are jaded and checking out.
@@mrshmuga9 Men used to be more disposable in general, but less so to individual women. It's kind of flipped. Men aren't being sent off to the meatgrinder that is war anymore, but they are more disposable than ever in their relationships.
Every time Alex opened his mouth something stupid came out. Erudite was here to argue the point Alex was here because he hates OnlyFans girls in all context Farha was here because she’s doing the exploitation and I guarantee at the end of the day she thinks these men deserve whatever they have coming because they’re basically one step away from actually cheating on their spouse Destiny was here to argue against people like Alex
1:10:18 Typical Farha when it comes to debates. Just intellectually dishonest. Almost always dodges or reframes a question when it goes against her narrative.
Listen, the biggest problem with that website is that you don't know what you are paying for. Paying the subscription fee to get 10 second clips, borders on criminal behavior and should be forbidden. Imagine buying a bag of chips and not knowing how much you are getting. Idgaf about the rest. Just be more transparent.
If there doesnt need to be compulsion for something to be an "addicition," then does "addiction" just mean voluntarily choosing to do something a lot? Or is it when people choose to do something a lot when we decide they shouldnt be doing it? Does their have to be a real harm associated with the behavior?
Does Farha know that the APA also is thorough with refining definitions of constructs because as a society we change our perceptions and reactions to things?
The debate organizers really F'd up the count at the end. Should have taken the numbers for and against and undecided, and then compared that to the same numbers at the end. Look at the debate between stephen fry and hitchens and Ann widecom "The Catholic Church is a Force for Good in the World - Full Version" for how to do a debate count. Anyway, you won massively
I find it interesting that nobody wants OF banned as they consider it the safest and best form of prostitution, but they don't want to call it prostitution. OF should be outlawed, don't care what anyone says.
If the stripper took my phone number or gave me her number and then started texting me daily telling me she really likes me, loves spending time with me and thinks I'm so handsome without any intent to actually date or spend time with me and probably even outsources these text messages to someone in a third world country then yes maybe the strippers would need more disclaimers.However this behaviour is coming from OF not strippers in strip clubs. Actually wrote this just before she brings this up and thats exactly what would make the strip club just as concerning if that was a common behaviour there, but it isn't because unlike on OF where the odds of the crazy guy coming to stalk you is relatively low at the strip club that danger is much more serious hence why they tend to not feel comfortable blurring that line near as much.
tbh i'd lean more to Destiny here. There is definite capacity for exploitation. However, this largely comes from bad actors. It's akin directly to casinos, alcohol sales, etc. Alex is making an assumption that people who only subscribe to onlyfans are lonely losers. Many use it just for kicks and don't take it seriously.
Farah could help the cause by adding one crucial word to protect the dummies. Advertise 20 minute FANTASY date instead instead of calling it just a date.
Interesting debate. You debate very well, you definitely have the scout mindset 😏 I like your centrist, logical deductive based positions. I would love for someone like you to be on Piers Morgan, or in the mainstream media in general. You give a fresh take on things (in particular when it comes to men's issues), and you do come across as more mature than the 'polticial/social commentators' and broadcasters which I am sick of seeing on tv all the time. 😂
😂 Dude on the left is unreasonable with his hypotheticals. Isn't repackaging a hypothetical question in order to get someone to change course or to contradict themselves....exploitive and manipulating? He's so emotionally attached to his beliefs that he can't use logic to reason with himself. His opening statement is the only thing that made sense, but he is literally contradicting himself by not allowing self-control/discipline to be factored into his hypotheticals.
Porn or sex addiction is an addiction you are basically born with. It's not the equivalent of someone who never took heroine conscienly deciding to take heroine but rather someone who is already addicted being given easy access to the drug. If you are already heavily addicted, is it really a conscious choice when someone who is fully aware of the issue takes advantage? 🤔
Farha: "I offer something called like 20-minute date so it's clear this is not a real date because you're paying for it and then I'll talk to you for twenty minutes." Uhm paying for a date is kind of the expectation for plenty of women so them paying for it isn't really going to dissuade someone dumb and vulnerable enough to actually believe a OF girl might actually date him that this date might actually be his chance and treats it like an actual date. Why do I feel she is possibly actually partaking in some of those exploitative techniques in her own only fans? Between this particular comment and her dodging the chance to say she would never date a subscriber all of it is giving me the feeling she is trying to keep plausible deniability a thing for just such subscribers.
This felt almost like a 3vs1 😂 Big W for you Kyla and hoping we get this kind of engagement on the podcast between you and Destiny 🔥🔥🔥
I don't get the notion that people believe men that buy OF are these healthy, conscious individuals, that are able to take sexual stimulus after sexual stimulus in top of getting to chat with the creators without any repercussions at all.
Even for healthy individuals that's a lot of stimulus.
Yeah, no shot the guys paying for dick ratings and "gf experience" messages are mentally healthy.
The other part that is fucked is that it's very often not even the creator replying back to them and I don't think that is made clear to the subscribers
When Destiny said dudes who pay for OF have a more healthy social life than people who watch streams had me howling.
@@VladStopTalkingThat was was insane. I can only assume that he’s making the case that because OF subs skew older male it must then follow that they’re probably more socially adapt. I just don’t buy it.
No one has that notion. Theu just think men have agency so it's their fault
Not exploitive: Owning a liquor store and selling alcohol to sober customers
Exploitive: Urging people who are clearly inebriated to come into your store and buy alcohol
Seems like this was Erudite’s argument in a nutshell
When are drunk people urged to go to the liquor store and buy alchohol? They choose to go there and with that it becomes not exploitative, that doesnt mean that its not bad for society just that the person selling it cannot be accused of exploitation.
@jam4631 are you illiterate?
@@eggbertjohnson2591 Are you an alcoholic?
@Coolerstetth.32 Is all sex when you've had a drink rape then? We are adults, we have agency.
Also can you explain to me how bars work in this world you have imagined? Once ive had a drink i cant buy another drink because i cant consent to it?
@Coolerstetth.32 legally drunk people buy alcohol at bars every single day
Farha did more harm than good for her side by being an actual example of an exploitative creator. The follow on question from Alex should haven been: If that guy who's lost his house on your content kept spending more on you would you do anything to stop it? I think her answer would essentially be yes, she'd probably say: "well he's getting something of value and it's his decision blah blah" which is basically yeah, I'd let him destroy his life and take him for everything he's worth
Yes but that is only so obvious because she is honest in her ignorance, that is rare! imagine if everyone debated from honesty, instead of who is the best orator. The world would be a better place.
Yeah it's in her material interests for OF work not to be exploitative. It's like trusting a McDonald's rep to be honest about fast food nutrition.
@@cheapbruh9778 maybe picking Farha was Destiny was trying to do the debate on hard mode. Invite someone who literally personifies the opposing sides argument
Im not a supporter of only fans at all, but the guy in that hypothetical the guys has a lot more problems going on than OF if hes ruined his life that much. He'd very likely ruin his life on any number of vices, but it happened to be OF
@@TheBaconBasket1 I think everyone agrees gambling addicts have a problem, the question is whether it's ethical to consciously exploit people with that problem by playing into their addiction
You can tell destiny is way off the mark and needs a reality check. He clearly is defending all his OF friends
It's who he fucks, so yeah.
Watched this on Destiny's channel the other day. You were the only reasonable voice in all of this lol, thank you. It felt fairly disingenuous of Destiny and Farha to compare OF work to being a waitress. Maybe it's more complicated than it seems, because Destiny is usually pretty good faith. To me though, it seems so obvious that those two things are not analagous for very intuitive reasons.
Nah, they are 100% in the right. Men deprived on intimacy can be exploited anywhere where a woman is kind to them. Be it in a mall kiosk, restaurant, bar, strip club or OF.
@@BennettMatsIt’s true that anyone can be exploited anywhere but this is a nothing counter argument. No one goes to Denny’s with the express purpose of rizzing up the lady that serves you pancakes. And unlike Twitch content creators, OF’s models paywall to get access to them. Most of the comparisons Farah and Destiny were making were asymmetrical. The arguments basically hinge on the idea that the same dude who pays money for a fantasy with a OF model would probably just end up falling in love with their Uber Eats delivery driver because LAMAOOO they’re a commer. The environments aren’t the same the expectations aren’t the same.
I mean no economic trade can happen in an emotional VACUUM, and the emotional intentions and state of dealing with a barista is very different from OF patronage, so it's a bit disingenuous to compare it to being a waitress. But then the argument comes down to the extremely subjective state of emotionality going on in someone's head. You'd have to agree to some emotional metric where the level of emotional exploitation surpasses a threshold where you would argue it is bad. Allowing tiny to exist in his super autistic computer brain space means he can just fight you off on the margins, on the question itself being asked, because he can fall back on; "Intuition isn't fact, bro."
@@ELDENLORD89 if anyone can be exploited anywhere then why single out only fans? This is the same problem that legislators ran into when they tried to ban violent video games. A judge would say, yes these video games are violent but so is tv, films, comics and books. If you want to make restrictions to OF or violent media, you have to justify it in some way.
OF work is no different than any other sex worker, which is no different than a drug dealer. They all make money off of other people’s addictions. If Farha was born pre social media, she would at best a gold digger and worst a sex worker. She, herself, has said many times how she’s the black sheep of the family because she’s useless. Why she thinks she’s smart just because she’s able to sell her body online is beyond me. I don’t understand how stupid people think. 🤷🏻♂️
I like how Kyla answers every question. It really helps curb my frustration with debates like these (extreme analogies and hypotheticals) where nobody wants to concede or bite.
Grown up showed up in the room
@@sassycaterpillar6631 Farha never answers a single question, Alex was terrible but when he asked "would you suggest your son use only fans" her answer was "I wouldnt suggest he use pornhub either" and then look at Destiny for a bail out or stare blindly and not acknowledge a question posed.
2:05 The guy in the black shirt who sheepishly raised his hand for the "not exploitation" vote was one of the pro-socialism voters from the previous debate. "Everything is exploitation except actual exploitation, which is ok."
Didn't expect Destiny to say that casinos aren't exploitative just to win an onlyfans debate. He was super bad faith the entire time.... as for Farha, I don't even know where to start.. Maybe don't have an onlyfans girl debate the morality of onlyfans?
It's kind of like going to a public relations specialist to debate the morality of the company they work for...
I think having an OF girl there was a good idea to have a different perspective. I just don’t think it should have been Farha.
Yeah D-man struck me as uncharacteristically bad faith in this debate.
@@ciararara4759 maybe not but she wasn't the only OF girl....
I'm pretty sure Destiny used to work in a casino before he became a pro-gamer/streamer... He is also friends with a bunch of OF girls. I'm going to say it wasn't unexpected.
Never heard of you before this debate but you totally killed it. I mean I thought you were playing chess while everyone else was playing Checkers. Nice job.
>2023
>young people find relationships inconvenient
>no one wants to change their lifestyles or attitudes
>water is wet
too much trouble, people suck!
People vastly underestimate how effectively and covertly girls can lead guys on. Especially to guys deprived from affection. I noticed after dealing with a girl who likes having guys simp for her, right after I came from an isolated pandemic rut, so my guard was down.
Destiny is probably a bit out of touch on this.
I had to call the suicide hotline after a girl played me like a total fool
@@scion6186 I'm sorry to hear, man.
On the bright side, you learn to avoid those types. Their use of social media is pretty indicative.
There’s a notable difference between a male being manipulated by a female he happens to know personally and a male who subscribes to a content creator on Onlyfans or generally speaking seeks the services of a sex worker. The latter know that this exchange is transactional and parasocial in the case of virtual interactions and most online sex workers are candid about that prospect. It’s usually only escorts who are willing to meet men personally and pretend to be their partner insofar as they are being financially compensated. I’m not denying how a pornographic addiction comes to be but to entirely infantilize and victimize male consumers of pornography is contra productive. Instead we must teach both men and women how to evaluate the potential repercussions of their actions
@@offlineuser and I am usually good at avoiding the prior situation, normally I know better than let myself catch feelings for a girl like that. But again I was vulnerable, my judgement was compromised.
Don't you think consumers can also find themselves in a vulnerable state, and therefore get into something they otherwise wouldn't?
The big difference is that the Onlyfans creators have more incentive to keep you hooked, as it's very profitable.
@@tonywoutrs I’m sorry about that. I’d say that a lot of people’s social skills were compromised during the pandemic due to enforced isolation, as you mentioned earlier.
Our consumerist culture generally incentivizes people to develop unhealthy habits and addictions. Statistically speaking, for example, a considerable amount of morbidly obese people in the US have been sexually molested during their childhood, i.e. used food as a coping mechanism afterwards. It’s not necessarily wrong to ask if and to what extent corporate interests enable these debilitating addictions but that question exists in a broader socioeconomic context. I don’t think there’s an easily comprehensible answer. It’s ultimately up to us to take care of ourselves and others within our local communities because neither consumerism nor the individuals who benefit from it are particularly concerned with moral obligations of any sort
I've only gotten through the first 25 minutes so far, and it seems like Destiny's fundamental flaw is not acknowledging inelastic demand exists while also believing demand drives supply (it doesn't). He also personally benefits from a societal dynamic where a man's value is zero by default and is only raised by status; as a renowned streamer that puts him in the upper percentile which means he will be in demand.
Farha also has a vested interest in defending her work from being called exploitative. It's like having a McDonald's rep on to ask if fast food is unhealthy.
Edit: At the 50 minute mark, still reeling from Destiny making the comparison between OF and parasocial relationships with restaurant wait staff. This is the dumbest, most bad faith comparison. No normal person actually believes they're going to a restaurant for the intimacy with the staff.
@Coolerstetth.32No it's not. At Hooters maybe
If Farha was so confident in her stance, she wouldn’t be scared to test the theory.
Try it. Do a meet up. See how many show up. For science.
Put the disclaimer, if you think it won’t change anything then there’s no risk. The only reason to argue against trying it is she is afraid to lose $$$ by being more honest
She also wouldn't outright state she wouldn't date a subscriber because she knows if her subscribers saw that a significant enough percentage of subscribers would either unsubscribe or at least spend less.
Men go on OF to escape from reality, not to get a disappointing dose of it, the vast majority of men already know OF isn't a dating site, a big red banner is a punch to the face to men, it kills the mood.
The benefits of subbing to OF study reminds me of the studies back in the day that said cigarettes are healthy, mercury is safe for fillings, and lead paint is the safest paint ever
Farah suggesting that OF is helpful to to society but shows an unwillingness to suggest that help to her own family members who may fall in to the category of men she describes OF as being helpful for was unbelievable. Same again when they were trying to suggest there isnt an atmosphere of false hope from subscribers that they might be the one only for Farah to give a deafening silence upon being asked if shed sleep with her subscribers only to give a non-commital "its possible" response.
Destiny was also hardcore coping in this. I genuinely dont think ill tune in to anything he produces when it comes to the topic anymore.
Welldone, Erudite. You did great.
Thinking about it… debates are overrated and counter-intuitive in their premise alone. It setups a black/white mentality where you’re less likely to give any credence because you’re on one “side” and don’t want to “lose” the debate. If something is setup as a “discussion”, which doesn’t have the preface of “winning” and “losing”, it opens up more chances to have a more natural conversation, and more open to changing your mind (or acknowledging different points) and less focused on saying anything just to “win”. Not full proof, and depends on the people in said conversation (I think Destiny and Farrah are too biased for it to change… don’t know much about Alex to say). But more “discussions/conversations” might help as opposed to “debates” where people go in with the intention of being the loudest and using whatever tactics to “win”.
@@mrshmuga9 If you can't concede when you're actually wrong, it's probably indicative that you're either defending the wrong position or you're not actually smart enough to have a debate in the first place. Never conceding anything is the behavior of a very smooth brain.
@@Blurredborderlines yeah I think Debate has become sport now whereas people have forgot that debate actually has a goal and a point.
If you never concede even when your wrong, and that wrong can be tested by analogous examples then there is no actual debate, because the point of a debate is to get to a truth, even if the truth is conceded from a lack of understanding.
You have to be extremely delusional to think most men buying onlyfans aren't lonely and sad individuals. Maybe not all but definitely majority
No one is arguing that, I’m saying if you are a grown man and you go to a corn website to find love then when the situation doesn’t work out you should take ACCOUNTABILITY. Keep in mind this is not a kid but a fully grown and mature man.
Do stupid things and win stupid prizes is a good rule of thumb.
@@HK-vn1xj the idea that just because you're over 21 years old, it means you automatically have perfect control over your desires and impulses, is kinda silly. Alex made a good point that selling drugs to an addict IS exploitative even if they're a "consenting adult".
@@Thematic2177
I never said that. I said if your 21 years old you should take responsibility and accountability for your actions.
Not be perfect.
Drugs and corn cannot be compared, mainly because the desire of corn goes away post nut, the desire for drugs never goes away without professional intervention, also the withdrawal symptoms can leave you hospitalized.
One other thing is that corn is cheep and drugs are extremely expensive, illegal and dangerous to obtain.
Corn is legal, cheep, safe and desire goes away after few minutes.
Drugs are the complete opposite on every aspect on a much bigger scale.
So comparing corn addiction and drug addiction is illogical because one is too dangerous and one is too safe.
@@HK-vn1xjit's not that they go there to find love, i imagine even the most desperate men know what they are getting going in, but over time the fake intimacy and chats could alter their perception of the dynamics of the relationship. I can only imagine its reinforced when women like Farha refuse to set clear boundaries because they know breaking the delusion entirely could effect their income.
@@telise8730
Men want fake intimacy, that’s why they signed up in the first place, that’s the whole point of the app. So hitting them with a dose of depressing reality is only going to turn them off and ruin the mood.
Your completely missing the point.
One thing that didn't brought up that I think should have. Is Onlyfan models and other professions where the woman either hides their relationship status or flat out lies about it. Because if an Onlyfans model is lying about relationship status and heavily flirting with a guy. It's absolutely playing into some type of manipulation.
Refunds seem like too much of an expectation, even if I think Destiny doing so for some donations is laudible. What seems much harder to argue against is cutting people off once they display this behavior. This is an explicit legal requirement for alcohol vendors. Even where such safeguards are not legally required (e.g. gambling addicts), most people at least agree that catering to them is exploitative.
That comparison is very weak because people can easily die by drinking too much alcohol, and most sentiment around gaming is mostly performative. Of course, we impose limits to the amount one can drink, it's much like how we passed laws against drunk driving. Everyone hates casinos, and few condemn sports betting, even fewer condemn gacha games, but the use of that (gaming addicts) as an example, ironically exemplifies the flaw in your logic. That being, inconsistent standards.
@@gameplayerone3917 What would the end result be of someone spending all of their money on an OF girl only for her to ghost him once he can't pay her anymore? As much as it's his fault, who had the power in that dynamic, the simp or the OF worker?
@@gameplayerone3917 the casino has booths when you walk in for gambling addict the apps constantly display disclaimers and offer help for gambling addics
Acting like p0rnography isn't addicting was the end of Farha's arguments for me.
this was one of your best debates by far. its interesting that you as a woman seem to understand how this exploits men and were able to articulate your views.
Yeah, it does
22:21 Casinos literally openly advertise gambling addiction hotlines.
And most strip-clubs will kick you out when you start behaving like a straight up stalker creep, not try to milk you for more money now that they know you're a good mark to get more money out of.
did this chick just say you cant have a porn addiction????? I got addicted to porn at freaking 6 and still have issues after trying to stop....im so sick of this bro, they just want to make money off of people that either have a hard time getting sex, or are super shy. this is wrong bro
when you go to a casino the first thing you see is a black booth that says "have a gambling addiction? get help" and when you log in on the apps you get gambling addiction messages and disclaimers
Glad u pushed back standing up for us MEN
Alex was Kyla’s biggest opponent in this debate lol. Ironic that Alex probably sells more unrealistic goals to his fans than OF girls do.
LMAOOOOO
It's so strange, because I think that Farha is probably a really good person, but wow, she's either really dishonest or incredibly naïve. I'm really glad that the red pill is falling of a cliff, because watching her talk her is like red pill NAPALM. I found the study she was referencing as well, it was of 335 people... of the 420,000,000 monthly active users, they surveyed 335. I'm not sure that comes close to being an effective study, but to be fair, I don't know a ton about the process.
She's insightful at times but other times I find her unusually aggressive and lacking in empathy. This discussion was the later.
@@vesuvius2444Yup, agreed.
That's not a terrible sample size for .95 confidence level actually. You only need a spoonful to see if a whole pot of soup is good amiriee
@@rexvectum Even with the incredibly diverse content available on OF?
@@HT-jj5sx Yeah it depends a lot more on how the data was collected and analyzed. A lot of survey data are trash and have horrible endogeneity problems but you don't really need a huge sample size unless you're trying use a super low margin of error or high confidence level. Theoretically they definitely could have squeezed some sound inferences out of that sample size though
I wished Farha finished that sentence on agents scouting out 17 year models for when they turned 18. That seems be concerning to say the least
Farah is wrong about everything. She knows she only has that job because of lonley people. She should acknowledge this and move on. I mean theres something fundamentally wrong if you're paying for porn.
Before the internet, the average man *did* pay for their porn- if they didn’t find it in their dad’s room.
With OF, they’re paying for access to the particular girl (sometimes, like a virtual strip club).
@@LoneWulf278I call that cope. There were way more social gatherings back then to meet people (unlike now). And getting pr0n was much harder. If you were underage, you couldn’t just pull up a browser tab and quickly find thousands of options (if you even had internet). You had to find, steal or sneak something. And stores aren’t gonna sell anything to children or they’d face jail time.
As an adult… it still was not easy. You had to physically go to a specialty store and pay for something. It doesn’t sound like much, but there’s mental barriers there. You have to take the initiative to leave the house to go there, and also a possible layer of shame for thinking about doing it or seeing someone you know there. A level of exposing yourself to the world. Now, depending where your computer/phone is, you don’t even have to leave your bed. The entire process is completely private, and there’s no limit restricting you (based on inventory, money, or shame). With the internet, you can have as much free content as you want, and near instantaneously. You can argue people had “some” amount of access before, but there were barriers limiting it severely or keeping it in check. It’s not even in the same ballpark then (80’s or earlier) as it has been for the last 20 years.
@@LoneWulf278He’s talking about the porn of today not 40 years ago.
You’re not paying for access to a girl on OF, you’re paying for a monthly subscription of content behind a wall.
@@WhoBlah21 But the subscriptions often include a pay-per-message fee/tip. A lot of the appeal and novelty is that you can interact with them and have more feedback or access other than visual. That’s the subject of concern- potentially unstable people thinking they are more important than they really are and being exploited. My comment is that strip clubs work the same way, more or less.
"She knows she only has that job because of lonley people"
The funny thing here is, no she doesn't. Watch any talk between her and Destiny, she's just actually delusional. Even Destiny when he talked about how he would've been better off without a partner in the debate mentioned Farha's engagement with the issue is sociopathic specially regarding the refund question.
I was impressed by the way you managed to bring the discussion back from the brink several times.
OnlyFans is embarrassing, it's definitely not a "net positive". Seeing women selling nudes for a few dollars, and men watching 10 second clips isn't positive for anyone.
I’m reminded of that quote along the lines of “We sold women feminism and now they’ll get nude for the price of a cheeseburger”.
It's not the nude selling that's destructive, it's the manipulation. Anyone that can say it's positive for anyone but the seller with a straight face doesn't belong in a debate.
Yeah after seeing this debate I think the issue is that sex work tends to attract malicious type of people who could manipulate their way into their costumers hearts and right into their wallets.
Not say that OF models/site are all evil. But there does exist those with bad intentions.
I just think that at some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. The ugly truth is that they provide what a lot of men want. Obviously not all, but it generates so much profit for a reason. It’s mostly just a sexual thing, not emotional. Most of the men aren’t crazy or sick, just bored with their marriage.
theres a lot of them that advertise on twitter with tweets that younger people might fall for, like "PS5 or me" or "wanna play fortnite" weird stuff like that. thats malicious AF. like are you tryna get young boys to buy your stuff? thats really weird.
Sex work wouldn't exist if there weren't a societal, intentionally-maintained intimacy deficit to justify the market.
@@dissident1337 And biological differences like libido and attraction asymmetry between the sexes.
@@dissident1337Sex work will always exist regardless of the amount intimacy, men naturally have a higher libido than women.
Kyla really was the adult in this debate, it's much appreciated
Dr K had a video on this. "How onlyfans monetizes lonely men".
That would be relevant, although this has little to do with debate angle.
It's good to know how things can be.
It's like you won a race with a weight tied to your ankle
Poor poor fools...thinking you pay for a woman so that you actually can have her... ts ts ts ... grow up!
First off, the study cited by Farha, that what, 80%+ of OF subs are married men, does not equate to happy relationships, NOR does it prove anything about improving relationships.
You can be married, with a shitty relationship, I know several men who are.
And along with that note, you can, in fact, be married, and still feel lonely if you have a partner who becomes distant after marriage, that's not unheard of, and this can happen with both men, and women. All of this can happen with both men and women.
Marriage =//= happiness
Marriage =//= healthy relationship
The marriage study proves absolutly nothing, because we further need to know what percentage of those married men, are also HAPPY in their relationship, or have had their relationship improved by having the OF sub, and until we have these numbers, that marriage statistic means nothing on its own.
24:06 “It’s what you’re expecting so it’s not exploitative.”
Not true. It’s not just if the consumer is aware of the risks, it’s also _the seller._ Someone selling hardcore drugs is knowingly selling an addictive product, with the hopes that person gets addicted so they become physiologically and psychologically dependant on them. Thus becoming a recurring revenue source. This concept that the seller isn’t at any fault, is a new and stupid concept for exploitative people to feel better sleeping at night. They didn’t just “accidentally” produce this material, market it, and sell it out of nowhere.
Well done Kyla, you definitely changed my mind on this.
First 30 seconds and just wow, no one ever talks about that aspect thank you for bringing it up erudite
seems like some of the listening skills were waning towards the end with farha and destiny; good performance erudite
Thank you for taking a balanced and nuanced perspective Kyla
I appreciate you being the voice of reason in this conversation. Big dubbs for NSE!
I really hope Destiny gets to smash already so I don't have to see this mediocre girl anymore.
So real
Does Only Fans allow ratings and reviews for creators on the platform so that the customers can talk to each other about the experiences had with the creator? If not, it holds the door open for exploitation. The business is a business like any other. Ratings, reviews, the ability for consumers to share their experiences both good and bad are tools that keeps businesses from engaging in exploitative behavior. You can look up the odds for any game in a casino. You can talk to other people to better get informed about what you're getting in to. You can't do this with "Kelly, OF model".
seems like a good idea for a website man. "onlyreviews"
It absolutely exploits and is predatory towards lonely men. Ill also say the only thing more predatory than personalized dms on OF to profit off of loneliness is the whole girlfriend experience thing.
It is not exploitive because when men use onlyfans it’s not for normal corn, it’s for personal connection and intimacy with the creator. That’s the whole point, that’s why onlyfans exists.
Onlyfans exists not for normal corn but FOR the girlfriend experience.
Sex work is SUPPOSED to be exploitive, that’s the nature of it. It’s not made for RESPECT for neither the creator nor the consumer.
It’s supposed to be like this or else it wouldn’t work.
If your a grown man that is lonely,
And you go on onlyfans looking for a relationship you should be punished to some degree.
By victimizing men, your are taking out the “accountability” part. And by doing that you are making sure that person doesn’t learn from his mistakes which is counterintuitive to accountability.
If you make a mistake you should expect punishment to a certain degree is a good rule of thumb.
@@HK-vn1xj well the girlfriend experience thing is super predatory and NEEDS to be shamed. Aside from that both creator AND buyer should be punished for this nonsense ngl but hey 🤷🏽♂️ and also... if something is just for exploitation then maybe it shouldn’t exist.
@@theunknown879
It’s not predatory and should not be banned because it is consensual and expected. Nobody walks into a casino or plays the lottery with hope that they’ll get rich of it.
It is consensual and expected so it’s not predatory.
The creator and buyer are already being punished, the creators self image and body is being ruined and the buyer’s wallet is being ruined.
It is not predatory because you agree to the terms and conditions of the site before using it. So therefore completely ethical.
@@HK-vn1xj So what part is the women's accountability in this interaction? Is she just an amoral actor who has no consequence for their actions?
@@Blurredborderlines
She has consequences but under your shell of bias you cannot see them.
Here’s a list:
*Ruined digital footprint.
* Ruined chance at future relationships
* Ruined self respect
*Ruined respect from others
*desensitized bonding and intimacy
* negative view towards men
* STIs
Your completely missing the point.
Huge Erudite W! ❤
Some people go on videochat rooms for intimacy that can possibly lead towards a good healthy engagement, nothing bad in that dynamic of being interested in having a relationship preceeding of a good intimate discussion if it is consensual and decent.
Im excited to watch video, and its interesginv to see that kyla holds a similar position as i do on ths topic!
IMO, while I agree with destiny that happenstance doesn't itself suggest eploitation, the combination of intent from the "seller" and a reasonability to decline from the "buyer" (NOT understanding of circumstances) that determines exploitation.
The example involving applebees isnt exploitation because the model of the business doesn't incorporate the targeting and takong advantage of people without a family to help them with food, and even it did mosf people have access to much cheaper food and the ability to make their own. Price hiking a resource like water when abundant simply due to demand is exploitation. People need water to live and will pay what they must to live. Similarly, casinos are typically exploitative as they use psychology to illicit addictive properties in their games.
OF content is exploitative as it often involves manipulative practices to keep it's mlst prevelant buyers interested. People pay because people have social needs that they arent having met in their personal life. OF creators take advantage of this to make money while simultaneously exaxurbating the problem for the individual.
Wasn't there an actual crime case about this where the guy thought he was dating an OF model and murdered his family to cover up him paying for it?
This was the biggest W i've seen from Kyla so far. Destiny as much as i like him, is rather incohesive when it comes to this, likely cause his bias from Melina. But i still disagree that there is any realiable study about the demographic of onlyfans users. I can't for the life of me think of a single dude that isn't a miserable loser that uses it over pornhub or prostitutes.
The fact that Farha can't even say it's bad if one of her donors gives her a ridiculous amount of money and says they took out a loan or refinanced their mortgage for it that that would be concerning and require pumping the brakes or if they have manic episode and the girl just happily accepts the money from that and possibly keeps that going has any room for excuses is telling that she is exactly the kind of problematic OF creator.
Destiny had no problem admitting it happens and that if that were the case he would feel bad and want to refund it if they were in trouble, but somehow Farha just can't say it. Just like he can't say she would never date a subscriber. Just like how she calls her 20 minute paid voice conversations dates without a disclaimer.
Excellent debate. I will say that I think you could have probably been more effective if you didn't have your partner that you debated with; it felt like at times he jumped in to attempt gotcha questions that derailed some of the responses you could have gotten and actually built a dialogue off of.
I will say as well that while I normally like Destiny and his takes, he had some that I disagreed with. Most of the debate felt like an incongruence between your belief that we have a responsibility to do more to take care of dumabasses in our society while the other very side very much felt like it was either "the number of dumbasses is so low/non-existent that this consideration is moot" (Farha) or "while there are dumbasses, they are not our responsibility to this degree" (Destiny). I think this would be an interesting debate to have again with individuals where their financial well-being is not tied to this structure.
The biggest point of contention that I had with Destiny in this debate was his seeming lack of motivation and understanding of the actual problem. At 1:26:42 where you discussed adding a disclaimer as a possible solution, his response was "I completely disagree with that" with the underlying tone of 'Because this doesn't work, we shouldn't try this' versus the more productive 'While I don't believe this will work, we could add it in and see if it has a positive impact.'
There was also at 1:31:15 the discussion of OnlyFans being a new phenomenon. Destiny brushes this off as it actually not being a new phenomenon with being able to buy intimacy for money going back for a long time. I think the meaningful difference we are beginning to see is with the digital era, we can now buy affirmations, mistake it for intimacy AND the person selling that product does not even have to individually interact with the buyer.
I wasn't going to watch this debate but I stayed watching because of this young lady. I'm pleasantly impressed with her in this. Fist time I've seen or heard her. This is a subject I do need to be more interested in since I have a son and I should worry about him taken advantage of in this way. But he seems to be having the teen life I had growing up having an easy time with females and being friends with everyone and just not having the loner type issues so many other young men have. But still, things change and something like this def could happen to him so he should be prepared to battle his inner simp.
I really don't think Farha should be on these types of debates. Her points either weren't good or incredibly callous. Even destiny tbh could barely hold his side imo
I think she was terrible for her side of the argument because she IS the very type of OF creator Kyla is concerned about and apparently despite trying to prove she is a-ok is just proving Kyla right with almost everything she said.
Destiny wasn't making great points either, but she just tanked their side despite Kyla having to deal with PlayingWithFire as her partner. It's telling that she still managed to win despite having him talking over her trying to make good points non-stop.
With Destiny making weak points and Farha scoring unintentional own goals it wasn't that hard to come out as the winners of the debate.
Was a decent conversation when you could speak, Alex wasnt constantly interjecting & yelling over everyone, Destiny wasnt soy raging because he apparently has never debated before & is regressing into a spaz that flips out when the conversation picks up, & Farha & you could actually respond to one another.
Destiny has way too much history debating & doing in person conversations idk why he activated super Saiyan debate bro so he could flip out constantly over a conversation this long its like he hasn't learned anything.
You did a good job being as patient as you were.
unfortunately, Alex is an incredibly frustrating debate partner. Good work, Kyla, for keeping your points clear and level headed.
Destiny seemed way off the mark in this conversation. He seemed so determined to 'win' this debate that he didn't engage with some otherwise very reasonable points from Kayla
Why did you team up with this PlayingWithFire guy? It seems like it would have been easier to argue your point without him there.
Friendship ended with Destiny
Now notsoErudite is my best friend
Destiny is proving that certain guys truly do believe that the only OF girl will get with them if they try hard enough. He's trying SOOO hard LOL.
Destiny is married to an OF girl and most of the women he hooks up with on the side are also OF girls so he probably does have some bias there.
@@bandit7497he's an outlier
22:50 Well no they didn't put disclaimers on cigarettes that its cool, they made a butt load of adverts in the 50' 60' disclaiming that its cool to smoke
Don’t forget Joe Camel. Literally trying to market cigarettes to kids.
erudite goated as usual
I support sex workers right to work safely, but ngl they tend to not be the best people. Super cynical and often times very predatory. And i think farah has an average opinion on this issue, and because it's normalized by OF creators she thinks her position is nornal.
Also, fin-dom specifically seems like potentially high risk for self harm.
Why would Farha go for the DSM with Erudite sitting right there?
Everytime Destiny and Farah spoke I just wanted to interrupt and say it doesn't matter... it doesn't match the definition of exploitation. Exploitation is using someone or a group for your own gain.
If streamers were targeting groups with a product in order to make something self interesting like money, they would be exploitative. If an onlyfans girl were to make it to share her body with the world and give all the money to the hungry, it wouldn't be exploitation, most however are doing it exploitatively.
Oh and also, even if the men loved it, it would still be exploitation! Ever heard of an exploit in a game? It doesn't hurt the game. It's a weak point that's targeted to get ahead.
That's the whole argument and theres no refuting it.
Why would Destiny give a nonsense usage of exploitation? It's such a ridiculously obtuse one
Hearing discussions like these are depressing of just how badly disposable guys seem to be when compared to the opposite sex. Of just how their just this 'i don't care' attitude with the emotional problems of guys who are going through some tough shit, sometimes i wonder if we will have this same noncholantness when it's reversed. I'll be honest, after seeing the deterioration of healthy relationships in this last decade or so have made me not suprised that cunts like Tate can garner such a large following or Peterson becoming more cynical. These debates to me almost always seem to devolve too 'men did this, women do that' and the whole conversation sounding like wanting thier cake and eating it too.
I just don't know anymore. But the mere fact that it gotten to the point that it's better to talk to some random OF model than to take the bullet, is really fucking sad to me...
It does make me wonder if men have always been disposable (excluding wartime), or it’s a newer thing as the result of the sexual Revolution and divorce laws. Either way, we’re in sad times, and people obliviously wonder why men are jaded and checking out.
For me it’s hard to sympathize with them after knowing they are married and cheating.
@@mrshmuga9 Men used to be more disposable in general, but less so to individual women. It's kind of flipped. Men aren't being sent off to the meatgrinder that is war anymore, but they are more disposable than ever in their relationships.
Good debate 👍
Every time Alex opened his mouth something stupid came out.
Erudite was here to argue the point
Alex was here because he hates OnlyFans girls in all context
Farha was here because she’s doing the exploitation and I guarantee at the end of the day she thinks these men deserve whatever they have coming because they’re basically one step away from actually cheating on their spouse
Destiny was here to argue against people like Alex
they are not forced not coerced. its not exploitation.
1:10:18 Typical Farha when it comes to debates. Just intellectually dishonest. Almost always dodges or reframes a question when it goes against her narrative.
Destiny = super SIMP 👌
For real
Listen, the biggest problem with that website is that you don't know what you are paying for. Paying the subscription fee to get 10 second clips, borders on criminal behavior and should be forbidden. Imagine buying a bag of chips and not knowing how much you are getting. Idgaf about the rest. Just be more transparent.
OF can be ok but it largely prays on the saddest people.
That number of married men that are subscribed to OF seems crazy. Would have never guessed.
I like all the commentators on this video. Farah, Destiny, and Erudite, seem cool.
I don't understand why a virgin would do OnlyFans
If there doesnt need to be compulsion for something to be an "addicition," then does "addiction" just mean voluntarily choosing to do something a lot?
Or is it when people choose to do something a lot when we decide they shouldnt be doing it?
Does their have to be a real harm associated with the behavior?
People should come with disclaimers.
This entire argument from Steven and Farha comes down to "Well group X doesn't have to act morally, so why should I? Its also hard and I want money!"
I cannot wait for western civilization to get off the Moral Relativism Arc so bad. Holy moly…
easy win for Erudite. Look what just happened with that fan and Rubi Rose.... it can get very dangerous
The guy in the front row with the full beard looks like a cross between linus tech tips and asmongold lmao
Does Farha know that the APA also is thorough with refining definitions of constructs because as a society we change our perceptions and reactions to things?
The debate organizers really F'd up the count at the end. Should have taken the numbers for and against and undecided, and then compared that to the same numbers at the end. Look at the debate between stephen fry and hitchens and Ann widecom "The Catholic Church is a Force for Good in the World - Full Version" for how to do a debate count. Anyway, you won massively
I find it interesting that nobody wants OF banned as they consider it the safest and best form of prostitution, but they don't want to call it prostitution.
OF should be outlawed, don't care what anyone says.
If the stripper took my phone number or gave me her number and then started texting me daily telling me she really likes me, loves spending time with me and thinks I'm so handsome without any intent to actually date or spend time with me and probably even outsources these text messages to someone in a third world country then yes maybe the strippers would need more disclaimers.However this behaviour is coming from OF not strippers in strip clubs.
Actually wrote this just before she brings this up and thats exactly what would make the strip club just as concerning if that was a common behaviour there, but it isn't because unlike on OF where the odds of the crazy guy coming to stalk you is relatively low at the strip club that danger is much more serious hence why they tend to not feel comfortable blurring that line near as much.
Longtime DGG boi, congrats on the win Erudite.
Never said this before to anyone.
The thing that happened with Rubi Rose is a great example of exploitation
tbh i'd lean more to Destiny here. There is definite capacity for exploitation. However, this largely comes from bad actors. It's akin directly to casinos, alcohol sales, etc. Alex is making an assumption that people who only subscribe to onlyfans are lonely losers. Many use it just for kicks and don't take it seriously.
Farah could help the cause by adding one crucial word to protect the dummies. Advertise 20 minute FANTASY date instead instead of calling it just a date.
Interesting debate. You debate very well, you definitely have the scout mindset 😏
I like your centrist, logical deductive based positions. I would love for someone like you to be on Piers Morgan, or in the mainstream media in general. You give a fresh take on things (in particular when it comes to men's issues), and you do come across as more mature than the 'polticial/social commentators' and broadcasters which I am sick of seeing on tv all the time. 😂
😂 Dude on the left is unreasonable with his hypotheticals. Isn't repackaging a hypothetical question in order to get someone to change course or to contradict themselves....exploitive and manipulating? He's so emotionally attached to his beliefs that he can't use logic to reason with himself. His opening statement is the only thing that made sense, but he is literally contradicting himself by not allowing self-control/discipline to be factored into his hypotheticals.
Someone should make an edit where any Alex interaction is deleted lol. Sorry bro.
Porn or sex addiction is an addiction you are basically born with. It's not the equivalent of someone who never took heroine conscienly deciding to take heroine but rather someone who is already addicted being given easy access to the drug. If you are already heavily addicted, is it really a conscious choice when someone who is fully aware of the issue takes advantage? 🤔
I can't watch this video in good faith without coomer clarity.
I wonder if the people that disagree are the ones paying for it, lol.
Wait.. I thought Alex feels men are the strong leaders but here he’s saying men don’t know that only fans and strip clubs are fantasy?? Which is it?
Yeah the hypocrisy is strong in this debate. These men really need to pick a struggle because they are clearly lost in the sauce.
Farha: "I offer something called like 20-minute date so it's clear this is not a real date because you're paying for it and then I'll talk to you for twenty minutes."
Uhm paying for a date is kind of the expectation for plenty of women so them paying for it isn't really going to dissuade someone dumb and vulnerable enough to actually believe a OF girl might actually date him that this date might actually be his chance and treats it like an actual date.
Why do I feel she is possibly actually partaking in some of those exploitative techniques in her own only fans? Between this particular comment and her dodging the chance to say she would never date a subscriber all of it is giving me the feeling she is trying to keep plausible deniability a thing for just such subscribers.
Of course it exploits lonely men. How does it not? How can anybody defend this.