Gauging Progress on the Buddhist Path: The Traditional Four Stages
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- In early Buddhism we find four stages through which we progress in our journey to awakening. We will discuss each of the four and look at one recent scholarly history that may uncover how these stages developed. We will then consider how the concepts of four stages may be problematic to our practice, and how conversely they may be useful.
Thanks to Gremlon Icus for raising the question!
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Suttas mentioned in this video:
suttacentral.net/dn6/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/an4.241/en/s...
suttacentral.net/an9.27/en/su...
suttacentral.net/sn55.6/en/su...
suttacentral.net/sn55.53/en/s...
Recent discussion over on SuttaCentral:
discourse.suttacentral.net/t/...
Reference article:
Joy Manné, “Case Histories From the Pāli Canon II: Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmin, Anāgāmin, Arahat - The Four Stages Case History or Spiritual Materialism and the Need for Tangible Results”. In Journal of the Pāli Text Society XXI, 1995, pp. 35-128.
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Thanks Doug i wish you and the reader all the best ❤❤❤
I find that as I work on the ill will I've been harboring all my life, the sense desire diminishes too. I don't think I can be rid of it in this lifetime though. It's powerful. But just taming that desire to the point where it no longer rules me will help so much.
Thanks Doug. Like to add, there is a path to stream entry and their is a fruit of SE. Eight kinds on noble ones. Many are on the path of stream entry but few attains the fruit of Awakening. Breaking fetters is a very useful way of checking in for oneself where one is on the path. The fruit is significant because one's own direct experience confirms the Truth of Dhamma. Each stage of awakening and transformation is irreversible. One cannot fall back or regress to lower levels.
Thanks Susmita! 🙏
It seems to me that, in early buddhism, the top goal was non-rebirth. That makes sense in a historical context and for those who expect to be reborn. For those of us who are operating on the assumption that we are not going to be reborn, it is interesting to think about how that might change the overall calculus. If that piece is already taken care of by default, is there not some sense in looking into a possible re-prioritizing of the steps on the path. I believe that the path makes life better for us and those around us, even if avoiding rebirth is not one of our purposes. But given that the the path seems to have been organized with the one thing that some secular practitioners are not interested in as it's principal goal, I would be interested in hearing if anyone has discussed how bracketing out that part might change the optimal sequences and weightings in our practices.
Good question photistyx. I've thought a little about this and so far it hasn't seemed to me as though there need be any change in the weightings of practice. That is, the same practices which make this life better also are supposed to lessen our desire for rebirth and hence keep us progressing along the path to arahantship. But it is something worth contemplation and if you have other ideas on this let me know!
This talk is a jewel, so I'm listening x 2, on different accounts. I'm attached to the belief that I'm a Never-Returner. And that's the fetter of I AM, that you talk about.
Thank you, Doug.
Cool, glad to hear it Sid! Yes this fetter runs so deep ...
Outstanding work, Doug. You answered my question on how these 4 stages are viewed from a Secular Buddhist perspective. Thank you, Sir.
My pleasure, Ricardo. Glad you found it useful! 🙏
Once again: Thank you so much for your teachings. A very Happy New Year to you. Here we go into 2020, during which, I think, we will need, more than ever, our Buddhist practice.
Indeed so S. Hurd, happy new year 2020 to you too!
Your explanation is conveyed with exceptional clarity. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
This was very very valuable. I will watch your video on the I am next. When reflecting about this the stages 1-3 seems quite accessible but the 4th stage an incredible hard path from the third.
Your explanations really help in self check.
Wonderful!
Thank you!
You provide much valuable information. Thank you
My pleasure, Archie!
Thank you.
For anyone wondering about the books on the shelf behind him, that is the bible of Buddhism, the Sutta Pitaka.
True!
Thanks Doug for shining a light on these aspects of the Buddha Dharma. Here's a couple of things that occurred to me about Stream Entry, aka Sotapanna. There are two notable examples of Sotapanna in the earlier suttas, the first being Ven Ananda, the Buddha's closest attendant and companion. You will have to forgive my poor Dharma scholarship here, because I don;t remember the references for either. The second is Vesaki?, a well known Lay female disciple of the Buddha, who was believed to have attained Sotapanna at the age of seven. Here's where it get's interesting. Ven Ananda declares to the Buddha, that he has not had so much as one sexual thought in the previous 20 years, since his attainment of Stream Entry. Vesaki, on the other hand, had a family of 12 children, and at best guess she must have had sexual thoughts a minimum of 12 times, I would assume. Both of these examples(despite their apparent differences) are quite believable because they both show that the lower three fetters can be absent, but that the householder and the Bikkhu's outcome from Stream Entry (or any other individuals) can be wider, or more varied than one might think. Vesaki was well known to the Buddha, so much so, that the Buddha agreed to her wish for her to be the one that furnished the prospective follower of the Buddha, with the Bikkhu's Bowl and Robe immediately prior to ordination. Cheers and thanks again Doug.
I think that's right John, being a stream enterer allows a wide range of behavior, and many laypeople in the Buddha's day were said to be stream enterers even while apparently living "ordinary" lay lives.
@@DougsDharma HI.!!.TO THE BOTH..SIR.!.AFTER ENDED YOURS BOTH CONVERSATION.. THE ASKER IS WISE TO DIG DEEP A QUESTION THAT SHOWING HIS WISENESS OF HIS BRAIN"S CAPACITY.. WHILE THE OTHER (REPLIER).IS WISE ENOUGH TO REFER TO THE BUDDHA'S TEACHING WORDS IN CORRECT WAYS..!!.YES.!!.SIR..BEING THAT SO..**THERE ARE TWO PATTERNS OF ATTAINING TO THE POINT OF.."SOTAPANNA"..(SODARBUNN,,SO-DAR-BUNN)..1//BY BEING THE LAY,,NORMAL,, ORDINARY PERSON(SEXUAL DESIRE IS NOT PROHIBITED BY GROUNDING..BUT IF ANY LAY PERSON EVEN RIGHTLY KNOWING HIM//HERSELF..HAS ALREADY REACHED TO THE STATUS OF."SOTAPANNA"WANT TO PURIFY HIM//HERSELF FOR MORE MERIT"S ACCUMULATION FROM THE DIRT OF SEXUAL CONNECTION..THERE ARE MANY LEVELS OF AVOIDANCE OF THIS DIRT.. FOR "SOUL,,BODY PURIFICATION..SUCH AS..SEXUAL IGNORANCE FOR.1,,3,,5,,7,,10,,30,,60,,30,,TO,,TO THE END OF LIFE (CALIBERS OF THE PEOPLES ARE NOT EQUAL..THIS ISSUE IS SO HARD TO PRACTICE),,.2//BY ORDAINING BEING THE MONK..ALL DESIRES TO FORM,, START,, GENERATE,,IGNITE,, TRIGGER.. THAT LEADING TO THE SEXUAL AFFAIRS ARE SERIOUSLY PROHIBITED(NOVICE INCLUDED).. BEING THE MONK LIVING IN MONASTIC SURROUNDING IS MUCH MORE EASIER FOR PURIFICATION OF MONK AND NOVICE..WHEN COMPARING TO ORDINARY PERSON THAT LIVING AT HOME..BUT NOT BE THE DEAD-RULE..IT IS ALSO UP TO INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL"S INTENTION TOO..**EXAMPLE**..LAY COUPLE MAN AND WIFE..THEY ACCORDED TO ACCUMULATE THEIR PURIFIED MERIT OF" SEXUAL AVOIDANCE..BY ROOM"S SEPERATION FOR THE BEST GUARANTEE OF DESTROYING THEIR SEXUAL CONNECTION..(NO SEEING EACH OTHER LEADING TO NO TALKING..NO TALKING LEADING TO NO CONNECTING..NO CONNECTING LEADING TO NO TOUCHING.. NO ANY TOUCHING OF ALL OMNI-WAYS OF EACH OTHER..IS EQUELLY TO CLOSING THE DOOR WAY OF SEXUAL DESIRE OF HUMAN..!!.THE TWO MAINS OF VARIOUS CAUSES THAT SEXUAL COMMITTMENT OF ALL MOMKS AND NOVICES ARE ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED..(1)ALL SEXUAL COMMITTMENTS EVEN THE SAME OR OPPOSITE GENDER ARE THE DIRT OF ALL HUMANS AND NOT CLEAN(NO PURE) TO TOUCH..ALL SEXUAL AFFAIRS OF HUMANS ARE THE SUPER DIRT FOR PRACTICING BEING THE GOOD MONK OR NOVICE ON THE PATHS OF BUDDHA"S THAMMA(DRAMMA,,THAMMAR)..2//SEXUAL AFFAIR(MONK AND NOVICS"S RULES) INCREASING RATE OF REBIRTH..LIFE IS SUFFERING INSIDE ITSELF FROM BUDDHA'S ENLIGHTENMENT..THE ONLY ONE UNSEEABLE LIVING THING WILL WIN THIS HARD CONTEST..EMBEDING TO THE READY EGG..ALL OTHERS 10,,20,,30,,40,,LEAST OR MORE TINY LIVING THINGS HAVE TO DIE INSIDE PRODUCTIVE ORGAN..KILLING IS THE HARD-SIN OF THE MONK(HOLDING 227 PRECEPTS)..BY LETTING THE NUMEROUS TINY LIVING THINGS TO DIE..THAT MONK WILL DISCONTINUE TO BE THE MONK IMEDIATELY AFTER MONKS COMMITTEE HAD CONCLUDED THE MONK"S FAULT(DISROBE,,PROPPLE OUT OF MONASTIC AREA)..PLEASE APOLOGIZE ME FOR LONG SHARING..**TO MR.DOUGH SIR..!!.I LONGLY WATCHED YOUR WORTHY VDO..DARE TO SAY TO YOU THAT YOU ARE THE EXCELLENT EXPLAINER..SO COOL..CALM..CLEAR..TENDER AND GENTEL..NOT TOO SLOW..NOT TOO FAST..NOT TOO SOFT..NOT TOO LOUND (PERFECT RHYTHM OF TALKING)..THAT COMING OUT OF YOUR INTENSIVE SPIRIT..I SO APPRECIATE TO YOUR UNIQUE CAPACITY OF BEING THE OUT- STANDING BUDDHA"S SPREADER..!!.HOPE YOU MEET THE PROSPEROUS WAYS OF YOUR WORK THAT YOU LOVE..BYE TO YOU AND TO ALL FRIENDS..SIR..!!(THAI-BUDDHA-ADORER)
Thank you for the video! :))
You're very welcome Bay Ariel!
Seems like i have been rushing things. I’ll just enjoy the opportunity. Thank you.
Good advice! Enjoy the process.
thank you
Perfect as always :-)
Thanks so much. 🙏😊
Thank you 🙏🏽
You're very welcome Raymond! 🙏
Don't know why this just popped into my in box. But glad it did. Thanks Doug.
You're very welcome, John. 🙏
@@DougsDharma 🙏
I like joy mane’s idea that the first stage is to become a convert hence entering the stream.
Yes that's a possible understanding of the early meaning of the phrase.
Stream entry is the real thing, because I was there, now I am trying to go back and live in The Stream.
You can’t un-enter the stream, these attainments cannot be unrealised?
I think the key is in the translation saying experiential confidence. By practicing the Satipatthanas one gains confidence in the triple gem and sees the dangers in breaking the precepts. Also one penetrates the true nature of reality. Why? Because one experiences for themselves how things really are.
Yes, that's how it's understood.
The "why?" sounded a lot like how the Buddha talks in suttas :)
I didn’t see a link to your video discussing the I am conceit, but I don’t think it’s as complicated to see through as many take it to be. The “I am” sense of a tiny homunculus living in your head and controlling everything you do comes and goes to different degrees and we normally don’t notice the change. Make a mistake in front of a large audience and you will become much more conscious of your self, i.e., self-conscious. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you’ve ever “lost yourself” in a book or a movie, or been “in the flow”, where it seemed like your body was on autopilot and was just doing its thing with no “you” controlling anything, that was experience without a separate self involved. Once you’ve recognized the illusion of self, it becomes easier and easier to see through. On one hand there’s just experience and on the other hand there’s experience plus a feeling of a separate self having the experience.
Yes, I don't think the concept is all that difficult to understand. But it's difficult to really deeply understand the way the Buddha recommends.
I feel this spiritual materialism is a big problem with those of advanced practices and austerities. I found that many a practitioner who had the great fortune of achieving a certain strength of spirit or had experiences of reaching or visiting certain places are still vulnerable to the pitfalls of conceit and bodily desires.
For sure.
Hey Doug thanks for the awesome content, can you say something about nimetas? These are kinda light beings which are also seen at the moment of death and if the mind is very still meditators may see them.
Thank you, wish you all the best and everybody who found their way here ❤❤❤
Thanks Doug for the great channel and lessons
I completely agree that it is likely for a lay person in the secular buddhism sphere is mostly dealing with sense desires and ill will. I however wonder what it means for a lay person to cling to the four jhanas and formless attainments when they haven't experienced them in the first place. It seems like it wouldn't be a fetter if they barely know what it is
Good point, I think the idea in early Buddhism is that in order to get to the state of nonreturn one probably has to have experienced deep states of meditative absorption. And whatever state one attains, one can become attached to.
@@DougsDharma I see. This is somewhat counter intuitive if I understand it correctly. So one is supposed to experience absorption, become attached to it but when they let go of it they become enlightened?
nice job
Thanks so much!
Hi Mr. Doug, hugely thanks for your video. Could you please think about making a deep dive video on Identity View which is the most difficult among the first 3 fetters we have to get rid of?
I’ve done a lot of videos on non-self, see my playlist on self and non-self in Buddhism for more! ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRjA9n0-U24ZCpfEQVFxeGz2
@@DougsDharma thank you very much 🙏🏻☸️
Doug should start a pastel polo shirt off the month club
😄
What level is reached with the extinguishing of clinging, aversion, and delusion? How does one know if they have been extinguished?
Well, the complete destruction of these three fetters is awakening. As to how one would know, that's a great question. If I recall correctly the Buddha basically says you simply don't feel any further emotional perturbation from pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and you no longer have any desire for rebirth in any form, nor a desire for extinction. You see the truth of the Noble Truths for yourself. These are some pointers anyway ...
Kind Sir, you mentioned a video you did about identity view and conceit I am but I can’t find the link here and I couldn’t find it by doing a search of your channel. Doug, can you please post the name or link to this video here in a reply?
Woliwon, thanks in Penobscot 🙏🏽
Thanks for your comment, Alakso. I'm not sure which video that might be, but it could be this one I did awhile ago about conceit in Buddhism: ruclips.net/video/JLKJO97Eihg/видео.html
🙏🏽
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I think doubt means , doubt about four Nobel truth and eightfold paths . That’s is Buddhas core teaching .
Yes, those are the most important sorts of doubts.
I am not sure working on fetters is the right idea. The fetters do drop away as a result of development but not as an object to get rid off.
Yes, that's probably right. The notion of fetters is more of a higher-level way to understand the goals of the path and where one may be on the path.
If one doubts rebirth & heavenly realms would that preclude you from stream entry?
Well stream entry has to do with seeing the effectiveness of the path at ending craving. I’m not sure that has anything to do with accepting Buddhist cosmology.
Hi Doug I was very curious about stream Entry. You see I have a fear that if I enter the state of Sotapanna that I will lose all the interests that make me myself and make me happy. What’s your take on this question?
Well I think the fear reveals attachment, which many of us laypeople feel for ordinary life. There's nothing to fear though because you won't attain this kind of wisdom until you're really ready, that is, until you realize that the fear is ungrounded and you will be happier without such attachments. At least, that's the kind of path we find illustrated in the early teachings.
@@DougsDharma Thank you so much for this! May the triple Gem Bless you! Have a Great day!
I have had this exact fear but for enlightenment.
You will still enjoy them, see them for what they are worth, but slowly relinquish craving for them. When the experience has passed, one has insight into the desire, and can still enjoy it when it arrives, without clinging.
Yikes, Doug, I'm going to have to listen multiple times. You were rattling on. Thank you for talking about the teachings on rebirth; a different way of thinking about it, because I don't believe in it. Ha! Attachment to opinions, ideas....ego!!
Ha! Yes I do rattle on sometimes. Sometimes I do talk about traditional approaches to rebirth because they are part of the early teachings. Some of them are interesting to know about even if we don’t necessarily accept them as real.
Hope your doin good too Doug 🙏😔
Thanks Isaac! 🙏
If there is no I, no soul, nothing that tracks us from body to body, then how can we be once returners, or non-returners? Wouldn't take mean an essence of our previous life followed us to the current one?
Well, it's basically the same question as what continues from moment to moment while you are alive. There is no essence, only a causally conditioned stream of mental and physical events. On a traditional understanding this causal conditioning continues between lifetimes. I did an earlier video on a similar topic: ruclips.net/video/IaH3fLhO3Xc/видео.html
@@DougsDharma thank you!
Okay so when I achieve arhatship I wont be rebirth anymore. But lets say if i'm at once returner step that means I need to rebirth again one more time.
My question is after I die on that new rebirth is it guaranteed that I will not rebirth again even if I'm doing nothing on my second life or am I need to abandon the rest of my fetters (7 fetters) on my second life? Is it guaranteed 100% I'm going to achieve nirvana after I rebirth again even on that second lifetime I'm an atheist or not a buddhist?
I wouldn't get too hung up on speculations like these. If they come, they come. 😊
Very interesting take on an important topic - milestones on the path to enlightenment. Yet, seems to me your whole talk is based on the single paper by this single person Joy Manné, who is listed as "Relationship Teacher" on Google Books. And her idea of you can achieve enlightenment through having faith in the triple gem and being generous (in this life) sounds a lot like Christian Protestant thinking to me. Could you comment on how your talk fit into the main stream thoughts of the Theravada tradition on this important topic? Thanks!
This is an important paper, published in the Journal of the Pāli Text Society, part of Manné's PhD dissertation in Buddhist psychology under Oskar von Hinüber, one of the top Pāli scholars of the past decades. Some of her conclusions, particularly regarding the precise order of development of these stages, will be controversial, but the claim that there are for example different descriptions of stream-entry in the suttas is clearly correct. That said, she does not claim that one can achieve enlightenment merely through faith and generosity. You may be confusing that with stream-entry, which is not the same as arahantship.
Is really interesting but now I feel that I'm not practicing the right way, what can anybody do in my case? feeling as if your practice is lacking or wrong?
How so Karla?
Put in the right effort and cultivate the path, no worries if everything is not perfect that wouldn’t necessarily be the middle way, practice right effort and try to cultivate the path and you will see as time goes on that it becomes easier and more fulfilling 🙏🏻🙏🏻
โสดาบัน เป็นผู้ที่มีศีลสมบูรณ์ มีสมาธิเล็กน้อย มีปัญญาเล็กน้อย
สกิทาคามี เป็นผู้มีศีลสมบูรณ์ มีสมาธิปานกลาง มีปัญญาเล็กน้อย
อนาคามี เป็นผู้มีศีลสมบูรณ์ มีสมาธิสมบูรณ์ มีปัญญาปานกลาง
อรหันต์ เป็นผู้มีศีลสมบูรณ์ มีสมาธิสมบูรณ์ มีปัญญาสมบูรณ์.
คุณฉลาดมาก!
Karla Santanach it Budda’s dharma
Can chanting, for example, ever be construed as being sufficient to reach any significant stage of awakening? There are practices in Buddhism that see chanting as just that. Are these practices at odds with Buddhism?
According to the early teaching, rites and rituals won't by themselves lead to awakening. However chanting can be one way to do meditation, and it may then be that the meditative aspect of the chant is what is doing useful work. Hard to say for sure though.
@@DougsDharma May I ask why do you admire early Buddhism? I'm not saying that it is worse by any means, but I myself wonder if I am appealing to authority of ancient wisdom too. However, what we have to go on with these teachings are also likely less reliable interpretations and possibly not as relevant.
Dusan I find early Buddhism its most down to earth and pragmatic form. It’s also the part of Buddhism where you find the real, basic justifications for beliefs and practices since it’s when the Buddha was arguing with non Buddhists about what to believe. Later forms of Buddhism tend to be more insular and scholastic in my opinion. That said there are great practices in many schools and each of us has to find for ourselves what resonates best with how we approach the world.
Just commenting for the algorithm
😄 Thanks Lucas! Every little bit counts!
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This may be my last life alot of simeon is allready gone F knows what willhappen once this meat bag goes
I'll be lucky to be thrown in the sea of ghosts...
Too many ads Sir :( 3 in 5 mins?
I know you need to earn but don’t be fearful.
RUclips schedules those things ...
@@DougsDharma oh, there is not a setting for least to maximum frequency of ads?
If you're generous to youtube (google) and get premium you get no ads other than those embedded by the creator which you can speed through.
Thank you!
🙏😊