Given that M0-M3 are scientific explanation of vibratory patterns (typically) related to the vocal folds. Is there accompanying scientific terms we can use to discuss the laryngeal “filters” / “resonators” / “mechanisms” that we use to shape the sound. I’m curious about the idea of being taught how to produce specific vocal timbre/qualities by doing something such as 1. Set vocal register 0 2. Apply Laryngeal Mechanism X 3. Do not use Larangyal mechanism Y Tada you are now doing the “RahRahDoRah Fry Scream” Another question 🙋♂️ Do the vestibular folds have any bearing on the m0-m3 registers, and do they have their own ‘register’ states? Ie (can you set m0 on your vocal folds and an m3 equivalent on your vestibular folds)
I try to teach students like this, as much as possible. There are some scientific terms that can be used for the vocal tract areas (aryepiglottic folds, epiglottis, pyriform sinuses, laryngopharynx, nasopharynx, pharyngeal constrictors, uvula, soft palate, tongue etc). The tongue is the most important element for the timbre/quality and the one that doesn't have sufficent scientific labels for a singer's needs. I am unaware of the vestibular folds having registers of their own (although, I tend to assume they have something like M1-M2). My guess would be that, if they have registers, it would theoretically be possible to have true folds and false folds in different registers, but practically it is very unlikely that one would be able to maintain that vibration...
Thanks for overview! It's really hard to find scientific explanations for this stuff. I watched both your vocal register videos, and your TA & CT muscle video, and I do have a question: Surely you've heard some singers and vocal coaches talk about "Flageolet," which, they claim, is a separate vocal register between M2 (falsetto) and M3 (whistle). If we assume that the scientific descriptions of M0 M1 M2 and M3 are accurate, and we didn't somehow miss one in between M2 and M3, what do you suspect the people who sing in "flageolet" are doing, anatomically speaking? If you look around youtube you'll find some guys talking about it, and singing in what is definitely not a whistle register, hitting notes as high as C6 and beyond. I'm assuming this is a case similar to "the mixed voice" where people are actually just talking about a lighter chest voice, or a heavier falsetto, but I'd still like to know, from a pragmatic standpoint, how to develop this sort of range. Does it just come down to very strong cricothyroid muscles and extremely relaxed thyroarytenoid muscles?
My guess is that "flageolet" is the upper extension of M2. It feels like M2 in my body, it sounds like M2 when I hear it... My guess would be that thyroarytenoid is not very engaged, but I don't know that one needs "strong" cricothyroid muscles... I don't know if there truly is any movement in the larynx that requires "strength" of any kind. It's all a coordination instrument... In order to get M2 higher, the vocal folds need to get a bit thinner (if you can take M1 above the D4/E4 range reliable, try to notice how it feels "thinner". If you don't feel a difference between G4 & G3, for example, sing G4 and then sing G3 exactly the way you say G4, that might highlight what you're doing at G4). If the vocal folds are a bit "thinner", they won't be as responsive to the amount of air that your M2 can normally handle, so less air... Exhale before attempting to sing the high note. Also, it might be easier to try to sing high notes directly rather than going from bottom to top, pitch-wise. Bottom to top is a "dragging" movement muscularly speaking and makes you more likely to remain a bit "thicker/fuller", so pick a descending pattern for any exercise you try.
You say “ask me questions”, I say be careful what you wish for cause I’m about to go wild 😜 1. Can you please elaborate on why the TA stops being the primary muscle past Eb4 (only monsters call it D#4 and you know it 😝) , and why this is the same in all humans? One would expect (from a very uneducated, unsophisticated and unscientific perspective) higher voiced human beings to be able to retain that muscle engagement higher in pitch (assuming that the muscle stops being as active due to not being able to withstand the pull from the CT muscle - which is how I’ve rationalised it in my clueless head, but then this makes no sense because in full density we are supposed to able to go higher by increasing air pressure instead of stretching the folds and - oh my god I’m going on a tangent) 2. If the TA stops being as active past Eb4 does that mean that going a semitone above (especially in M1) requires some kind of muscular adjustment, similar to navigating a “passaggio” (another can of worms - yay 😊) 3. Is there a some kind of muscular engagement change an octave higher at Eb5? I’m asking because it’s regarded as the limit for overdrive and edge. Why? And why is the limit so close in both males and females? It makes no sense at first glance 4. Are there other pitches where certain musculature or acoustical phenomena are identical across all humans, similar to the aforementioned Eb4? I’m asking because whenever I hear about a certain pitch being regarded as a “passaggio” or a “mix starting point” or an “open your mouth more” point (you know the drill) for a specific voice type or sex, I usually experience some kind of muscular/density/acoustical change in that same pitch too, regardless of whether it fits my voice type or not. Do we have any data or theories on that? I guess your mention of the D#4 limit explains why I’ve always felt a change at E4 even though I’m a tenor and E4 is supposed to be the “baritone passaggio” 5. Are there any coordinations that are naturally easier to perform for certain voice types? M3 is a massive pain to perform for males, but females (especially sopranos) sometimes don’t even have to try. And if so, why? 6. If you choose to respond, would you consider making a video on any of these topics? I think it could potentially be a good opportunity to talk about interesting things that can’t be found easily on RUclips (or anywhere in general) Oh, and thank you for the video 😊
I'll do my best to briefly touch on these questions ^.^ 1) I have no idea why it stops being the primary muscle. I could think of various hypotheses, but I have no reasons to prioritise one over any other. If you like rabbit holes, you can start from this www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0892199714000198 and www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0892199789800037 I can't find my reference for it being the same in all humans. I would have to reach out to Dr. Chadley Ballantyne to confirm. I think humans place too much weight on biological sex and "natural voices" when thinking about voice. The reality seems to be much murkier than we think... What I will say is that most text books present TA & CT as antagonist muscles, but I don't fully see why. The posterior cricoarytenoid muscles seem far more antagonistic in their action... 2) I would argue yes :) 3) Well, the voice tends to work the same way in males and females and it tends to work in predictable mathematical ways very often. So if there is a "break" or "shift" at E3, we expect a shift at E4, E5 etc. If there is a transition point at G4, we expect transitions at G3, G5 etc... 4) We have theories but no solid data, as far as I know... I would say we expect a muscular shift around Es, we expect instability of some sort around Gs, an acoustical shift around As... 'Tis weird! I quite like ideas and theories that suggest that every single pitch is a micro-transition, but it's a bit overwhelming to teach people like that. 5) Not really... Voice types aren't a muscular event, they are more of an acoustic/volume event. Most coordinations are muscular. If I remember correctly, there is a small correlation with being able to access M3 and having hypermobility (which tends to be more prevalent in females, and most females are sopranos). M3 is not often used, heard or practised so it makes sense that most humans suck at it XD What you might be referring to is actually the upper extension of M2, which a lot of people confuse with M3. One of my favourite listening exercises is getting a YT compilation video of Mariah Carey singing "whistle notes" and identifying which sounds are M2 and which are actually M3! 6) Potentially yes. I would have to do some deep diving on the research to make sure I've got references for some of these topics.
@@AlikiKatriou Well, he does it a lot. But Seele Brennt is the first song that comes to mind. Listen to 1:29 and 3:24 ruclips.net/video/OibCm7bhGNE/видео.html
So my first thought was: I didn't... In the sense that there is certainly effort. I'm not saying it's really high, but it is definitely there. I personally like doing my whistles on an inhale (this is because it's easier and because I haven't practised whistle on an exhale enough for that to be my preference). The key to whistle is very very very little air. It doesn't feel like I am inhaling when I do it on an inhale, and it doesn't feel like I am exhaling when I do it on an exhale. I think it's very difficult to convince the brain to use such little air...
Loved it, thanks for the anatomy class btw :v
^.^ thank you!
9:37 😂
Given that M0-M3 are scientific explanation of vibratory patterns (typically) related to the vocal folds. Is there accompanying scientific terms we can use to discuss the laryngeal “filters” / “resonators” / “mechanisms” that we use to shape the sound.
I’m curious about the idea of being taught how to produce specific vocal timbre/qualities by doing something such as
1. Set vocal register 0
2. Apply Laryngeal Mechanism X
3. Do not use Larangyal mechanism Y
Tada you are now doing the “RahRahDoRah Fry Scream”
Another question 🙋♂️
Do the vestibular folds have any bearing on the m0-m3 registers, and do they have their own ‘register’ states? Ie (can you set m0 on your vocal folds and an m3 equivalent on your vestibular folds)
I try to teach students like this, as much as possible. There are some scientific terms that can be used for the vocal tract areas (aryepiglottic folds, epiglottis, pyriform sinuses, laryngopharynx, nasopharynx, pharyngeal constrictors, uvula, soft palate, tongue etc). The tongue is the most important element for the timbre/quality and the one that doesn't have sufficent scientific labels for a singer's needs.
I am unaware of the vestibular folds having registers of their own (although, I tend to assume they have something like M1-M2). My guess would be that, if they have registers, it would theoretically be possible to have true folds and false folds in different registers, but practically it is very unlikely that one would be able to maintain that vibration...
Thanks for overview! It's really hard to find scientific explanations for this stuff. I watched both your vocal register videos, and your TA & CT muscle video, and I do have a question:
Surely you've heard some singers and vocal coaches talk about "Flageolet," which, they claim, is a separate vocal register between M2 (falsetto) and M3 (whistle). If we assume that the scientific descriptions of M0 M1 M2 and M3 are accurate, and we didn't somehow miss one in between M2 and M3, what do you suspect the people who sing in "flageolet" are doing, anatomically speaking? If you look around youtube you'll find some guys talking about it, and singing in what is definitely not a whistle register, hitting notes as high as C6 and beyond. I'm assuming this is a case similar to "the mixed voice" where people are actually just talking about a lighter chest voice, or a heavier falsetto, but I'd still like to know, from a pragmatic standpoint, how to develop this sort of range.
Does it just come down to very strong cricothyroid muscles and extremely relaxed thyroarytenoid muscles?
My guess is that "flageolet" is the upper extension of M2. It feels like M2 in my body, it sounds like M2 when I hear it... My guess would be that thyroarytenoid is not very engaged, but I don't know that one needs "strong" cricothyroid muscles... I don't know if there truly is any movement in the larynx that requires "strength" of any kind. It's all a coordination instrument...
In order to get M2 higher, the vocal folds need to get a bit thinner (if you can take M1 above the D4/E4 range reliable, try to notice how it feels "thinner". If you don't feel a difference between G4 & G3, for example, sing G4 and then sing G3 exactly the way you say G4, that might highlight what you're doing at G4). If the vocal folds are a bit "thinner", they won't be as responsive to the amount of air that your M2 can normally handle, so less air... Exhale before attempting to sing the high note. Also, it might be easier to try to sing high notes directly rather than going from bottom to top, pitch-wise. Bottom to top is a "dragging" movement muscularly speaking and makes you more likely to remain a bit "thicker/fuller", so pick a descending pattern for any exercise you try.
@@AlikiKatriou Thanks! I will play around with this!
You say “ask me questions”, I say be careful what you wish for cause I’m about to go wild 😜
1. Can you please elaborate on why the TA stops being the primary muscle past Eb4 (only monsters call it D#4 and you know it 😝) , and why this is the same in all humans? One would expect (from a very uneducated, unsophisticated and unscientific perspective) higher voiced human beings to be able to retain that muscle engagement higher in pitch (assuming that the muscle stops being as active due to not being able to withstand the pull from the CT muscle - which is how I’ve rationalised it in my clueless head, but then this makes no sense because in full density we are supposed to able to go higher by increasing air pressure instead of stretching the folds and - oh my god I’m going on a tangent)
2. If the TA stops being as active past Eb4 does that mean that going a semitone above (especially in M1) requires some kind of muscular adjustment, similar to navigating a “passaggio” (another can of worms - yay 😊)
3. Is there a some kind of muscular engagement change an octave higher at Eb5? I’m asking because it’s regarded as the limit for overdrive and edge. Why? And why is the limit so close in both males and females? It makes no sense at first glance
4. Are there other pitches where certain musculature or acoustical phenomena are identical across all humans, similar to the aforementioned Eb4? I’m asking because whenever I hear about a certain pitch being regarded as a “passaggio” or a “mix starting point” or an “open your mouth more” point (you know the drill) for a specific voice type or sex, I usually experience some kind of muscular/density/acoustical change in that same pitch too, regardless of whether it fits my voice type or not. Do we have any data or theories on that? I guess your mention of the D#4 limit explains why I’ve always felt a change at E4 even though I’m a tenor and E4 is supposed to be the “baritone passaggio”
5. Are there any coordinations that are naturally easier to perform for certain voice types? M3 is a massive pain to perform for males, but females (especially sopranos) sometimes don’t even have to try. And if so, why?
6. If you choose to respond, would you consider making a video on any of these topics? I think it could potentially be a good opportunity to talk about interesting things that can’t be found easily on RUclips (or anywhere in general)
Oh, and thank you for the video 😊
I'll do my best to briefly touch on these questions ^.^
1) I have no idea why it stops being the primary muscle. I could think of various hypotheses, but I have no reasons to prioritise one over any other. If you like rabbit holes, you can start from this www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0892199714000198 and www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0892199789800037
I can't find my reference for it being the same in all humans. I would have to reach out to Dr. Chadley Ballantyne to confirm.
I think humans place too much weight on biological sex and "natural voices" when thinking about voice. The reality seems to be much murkier than we think... What I will say is that most text books present TA & CT as antagonist muscles, but I don't fully see why. The posterior cricoarytenoid muscles seem far more antagonistic in their action...
2) I would argue yes :)
3) Well, the voice tends to work the same way in males and females and it tends to work in predictable mathematical ways very often. So if there is a "break" or "shift" at E3, we expect a shift at E4, E5 etc. If there is a transition point at G4, we expect transitions at G3, G5 etc...
4) We have theories but no solid data, as far as I know... I would say we expect a muscular shift around Es, we expect instability of some sort around Gs, an acoustical shift around As... 'Tis weird! I quite like ideas and theories that suggest that every single pitch is a micro-transition, but it's a bit overwhelming to teach people like that.
5) Not really... Voice types aren't a muscular event, they are more of an acoustic/volume event. Most coordinations are muscular. If I remember correctly, there is a small correlation with being able to access M3 and having hypermobility (which tends to be more prevalent in females, and most females are sopranos). M3 is not often used, heard or practised so it makes sense that most humans suck at it XD What you might be referring to is actually the upper extension of M2, which a lot of people confuse with M3. One of my favourite listening exercises is getting a YT compilation video of Mariah Carey singing "whistle notes" and identifying which sounds are M2 and which are actually M3!
6) Potentially yes. I would have to do some deep diving on the research to make sure I've got references for some of these topics.
I wonder, is the Blixa scream from Neubauten in the whistle register? Or is it something else?
Which song?
@@AlikiKatriou Well, he does it a lot.
But Seele Brennt is the first song that comes to mind. Listen to 1:29 and 3:24
ruclips.net/video/OibCm7bhGNE/видео.html
How did you do the whistle effortlessly. Technically how?
So my first thought was: I didn't... In the sense that there is certainly effort. I'm not saying it's really high, but it is definitely there. I personally like doing my whistles on an inhale (this is because it's easier and because I haven't practised whistle on an exhale enough for that to be my preference). The key to whistle is very very very little air. It doesn't feel like I am inhaling when I do it on an inhale, and it doesn't feel like I am exhaling when I do it on an exhale. I think it's very difficult to convince the brain to use such little air...