As a Messianic Jew myself, an ethnic Jew who believes that Jesus is our Messiah and King...that was infuriating! I find myself nodding along, "Yes, yes" at one moment, and then at the very next sentence, "No! No, no, no."
@@Historian212 That's very true, yes. One can't even suggest that we Messianic Jews are the ones who believe that Messiah has already come. There have been and are other sects of Judaism who have believed the same thing about other men. The Rebbe Schneerson, for example. You're absolutely right that it is a bit of a misnomer. However, for better or worse, precedent has been set and the term "Messianic Jew" has widely been known to have one primary meaning for the past half century, and that is "ethnic Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah." A message that I frequently attempt to communicate to the Christian church, and something that would help bring a little perspective and clarity, is that Christianity IS Judaism. That is, it is an extension of Abrahamic Judaism, just as modern Rabbinic Judaism is a sect of Abrahamic Judaism. In fact, Christianity (or, "Messianic Judaism") is OLDER than Rabbinic Judaism; Christianity beginning with the ministry, death, and resurrection of Messiah and Rabbinic Judaism being created after the destruction of the temple in 70ad and it's formation being largely influenced by a reaction to these "Christian Jews" and their inclusion of Gentiles into the synagogue. Christianity is not a separate religion. It is an extension of Abrahamic Judaism. It IS Judaism. That understanding could help bring clarity to others about how we get names such as "Messianic Judaism." Thank you for your comment. God bless you.
@@jachinputnam7459 "I find myself nodding along, "Yes, yes" at one moment, and then at the very next sentence, "No! No, no, no."" And there is something surprising about this? I am of the opinion that when we get home (heaven) we'll smack ourselves on the forehead and say OF COURSE! It's all so clear and simple, why didn't I see this before. of course (as always) I..Could..Be..Wrong.
Amy -Jill Levine is such a sweetheart!...I asked her once at the question and answer session after a liberal church lecture...why she as an "unbeliever" became a scholar of the New Testament? ...she curtly corrected me, that first all, she is not an "unbeliever" merely because she doesn't believe exactly like me...and then kindly responded to my question...that she didn't start out interested in studying the New Testament, but rather she was interested in studying 2nd temple/1st century Judaism ...and she discovered that the New Testament was one of the best historical sources for 1st century Judaism...I've repeated that story dozens of times since...particularly when engaging those scoffing skeptics who declare that the New Testament contains only myth and no history...
Giles Fraser appears to be the archetypal contemporary Anglican priest: always say exactly what you think is politically correct. Its interesting that Amy-Jill Levine, a non-Christian, has to point out the obvious to him. There is nothing wrong with bearing _witness_ to your own faith in Christ to the non-Christian jewish people. Anglicans are so anxious not to offend non-christians that they end up demeaning their own faith.
Thank you Justin for this conversation. I am a Christian (Follower of Christ) and I found this discussion was filled with respect, humour, and even, at times -- joy. While I cannot agree with many of the statements, and felt some sadness at the errors, I very much enjoyed listening. Again, thank you for hosting this episode.
My best friend in secondary school was Jewish, and as Jewish a man, and as English a man as ever I met. Mature beyond his years, I learned much from him, not least about Judaism and English folk music. I loved his wonderful, bright-eyed, witty, conspiratorial, mother as my own. He died in his mid-20s. His funeral was in the village where he had married and made his home. His parents chose the Anglican church there for his service. We sang "Morning Has Broken" and buried him in the churchyard. His mother held my hand. We winked at God. He winked back. If anyone has criticisms of us for this, I won't be listening.
@@theunapologeticjew It's symbolically joined with the blood spilt on the day of Atonement. The passover lamb is connected what Christians believe is that on the passover Jesus becomes the passover lamb. He is the one whos blood is split to make atonement. The firstborn is connected to the first born man who rebelled against God. So it takes a new Adam, Christ, who becomes the atonement for the forgiveness of sin that doesn't need to be repeated.
@@MrAbuYaz No. There was no forgiveness of past sins in the Mosaic Law, as no offering can pay for sins, as sins have to be forgiven for those who deserve that mercy. Those who lived by faith before Jesus were saved by God's grace, but now those who live by faith require the grace in final judgement by Christ.
@Simon Skinner that is Christian doctrine, not Jewish. Of course Jews are forgiven, if they repent, make restitution, and then live differently. What does the scripture say: God doesn't need blood sacrifice, but a broken and contrite heart. Look it up. The Tanakh is full of God's grace. Study what Jews teach about Judaism, not what Christians believe. You might learn something interesting.
@@Historian212 Too true. The Jew was under Melchisedech before Moses. The blood of Jesus only encapsulated the law of righteousness into the new covenant No offering can take away sin.
There were offerings for sin throughout the biblical period, including the barbaric ‘scapegoat’ procedure. God’s forgiveness didn’t requre a human sacrifice, according to Judaism. That is the whole point of the ‘sacrifice of Isaac’ story.
All Christian’s knew Christianity existed after Jesus and was the known “The Way” or “the Nazarenes” as often referred to by the Jewish. But the teachings & principals of Jesus is the foundation of the modern Christianity!
And I hope Pope Francis takes his own advice about not using “Pharisee” as a derogatory term because he has done this regularly (for example with respect to his conservative catholic critics )
Why its true as Peter stated to the Israelites, "You with the help of those who have no law" (Gentiles -Romans) put Jesus to death. Jesus stated, "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” So from that context no one killed Jesus rather He thought you were to die for.
I am a Christian a follower of Christ, the early church were not called Christians, they were referred to as followers of the way. Most of them were Jewish, the term Christian did not arise until Acts 11. Since that time we have become known universally as Christian, those of us who are and also sadly, anyone from a western country in general comes under this term. The Jews however who believed in their Mashiak are still Jewish, they haven't lost their Jewishness, we've lost mainly via Rome, the Jewishness of our faith. Ruth the gentile said to Naomi the Jew. "your God will be my God and your people will be my people". Im a wild olive grafted in.
I love the Jewish people and i thank God for them. How can a Christian be anti semitic?? "You killed our Lord". No,kid. Our Lord gave himself freely. And asked Ha'shem to forgive both Roman and Jew who were involved in his torture. Being an antisemitic Christian, is an oxymoron.
justin I always enjoy much of your programming. I very much enjoy your disposition toward others even when they do not agree with you. in this exchange I just don't think the priority of Christ. the absolute miracle of salvation in His work was appreciated. this could have been teased out. however we want to explore his very real humanity in the context of Judaism ultimately there are not any other ways by which a man can be made right with God. there was value in the history but felt a little lite on who Jesus ultimately is. much love
The most memorable bit to me was Giles saying that Christians remember the sacrificial system through Holy Communion, and for me this is the wonder and glory of salvation brought us through our Lord's giving of Himself for our sins.
Why do they think we've lost the Jewish Jesus? A Christian is one who is saved by Jesus' death & resurrection, so, no, Jesus wasn't a Christian. The Pharisees were zealous for the Law, but they failed to understand the human heart - they concentrated on the letter & ignored the spirit. That was what Jesus condemned them for. The Jewish leaders, together with the Pharisees, opposed Jesus & subsequently the Christians. They were the ones with power, it was no wonder Christians felt they were their enemies. When the Christians were in power they responded to the enmity they had known. One wonders how much these two knew of Church History. Of course, Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT, that is why Christianity doesn't have a sacifice, it has already taken place. It would be nice to have a Christian on Unbelievable.
I don't think that many people think that Jesus is 'Christian.' It's only a few days ago that I saw ONE person having writen that in a RUclips comment section. I took him for a TROLL☆
I did enjoy the conversation but Giles felt to much like a fanboy of Jill's and was not willing to tackle the hard issues. It would have been a deeper conversation with someone like Dr. Michael Brown or Dr. Michael Heiser.
About Jesus interpreting law, my take: The point is the change is from the level of acts as primary to that of the mind. "As a person thinks in his heart"= mind. "The kingdom of heaven is within you." Yes, "and among you" but the mind is primary. And "heart", mind = inner spirit.
I’m Jewish and I thought this was a great conversation! Also, as a Russian native, I really liked when Giles said Christians are the real “rootless cosmopolitans”; I’m keeping that one in my back pocket for possible future use. 😉There were a LOT of great insights here. Please have more interfaith discussions. Good job! 👍
Yes I hear you, we come together on so many things. I suppose we see the coming of the Messiah but both agree that the messiah brings in worldwide peace.
One of the most intellectual and inspiring conversation by great human being discussing the message of Christ of reconciliation. Let us put aside the saying I love jacob and hate Esau and following Joseph who married an Egyptian and told his brothers 2 lovely things, first, you meant to me evil but God meant of the evil a great good, and the second , do not fight amongst yourself on the way. God bless you Justin fro bringing these two fabulous people, I am a fan of Dr. A Jill Levine for more than 5 years . And delighted to get aquatinted with dear Giles Fraizer.
Giles says "Christianity is weird as a religion insofar as the person who, as it were founded it, wasn't a member of the religion he actually founded." You could say the same about Guatama Buddha. He was a Hindu, not a Buddhist. Regarding teachings - what "upgrades" did Jesus Christ bring? The Golden Rule for one. Many will say that he was not the first to do so. But you are thinking of "Silver Rules". Any such formula which involves reciprocity is a "Silver Rule", named after the Moon's reflecting of the Sun's light. "Do unto others as you would be done to yourself" - that's Silver. We can find Silver Rules in their more judgemental aspect too - "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" - perfect reciprocity - solid silver. A true Golden Rule - such as "Love your enemy" - cannot have a lower aspect.
@@tripp8833Is this the one you mean? Zi gong (a disciple of Confucius) asked: “Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?” The Master replied: “How about ‘shu’ [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?” -Confucius, Analects XV.24
A biblical Jew is a Christian. Bible is crystal clear on this... Firstly, the promise to Abraham was made to BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ (Melchizedek). Jesus is God (John 1:1) and God manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). The seed of the promise made to Abraham is SINGULAR, not plural. Abraham’s seed (descendant) is Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith NOT, And to SEEDS, as of MANY; but as of ONE, And to THY SEED, which is CHRIST. Galatians 3:29 And IF ye be Christ's, THEN are ye Abraham's SEED, and HEIRS according to the PROMISE. Secondly, in the bible we have physical Jews and physical Israel and spiritual Jews and spiritual Israel - discerning the distinction when reading scripture is key. Romans 2:28-29 tells us that a true, spiritual Jew is a saved Christian. Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Thirdly, Gods covenant with Israel was CONDITIONAL on the physical Jews being OBEDIENT and KEEPING His COMMANDMENTS (note the use of the word “IF”) in Exodus 19 below. They weren’t obedient, they didn’t keep the commandments, they rejected the prophets that God sent them, they rejected and killed Jesus and the apostles. Compare Exodus 19:5-7 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and you will see that the peculiar treasure (chosen people), and the royal priesthood and an holy nation is - it’s saved believers in Jesus Christ. Exodus 19:5-7 (KJV) 5 Now therefore, IF ye will OBEY my voice indeed, and KEEP MY COVENANT, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. Exodus 24:7-8 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. 1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
we christians have not replaced Israel, the jews are on pause, though they started playing again at the jews return to Israel which happened may 1948 which is prophesied in Ezekiel and Leviticus (do a Google search on this prophesy, its long and on 2 places). Israel/the jews is the future church after Christs return, and they will be together with remnants of ancient assyria and Egypt (Isaiah 19).
Unfortunately you are totally wrong. There are only Jews. Christian is a mock term from the Romans. Jews are chosen by God, and when chosen a Gentile becomes a Jew.
@@someonethatisachristian wrong. The Bible makes it clear that God created a new people and gave them the kingdom that He took away from the ethnic Jews for he rejected them in their disobedience.
@@someonethatisachristian - Jerusalem is Babylon - Babylon is the GREAT CITY in the Book of Revelation and Jerusalem killed the PROPHETS, APOSTLES, SAINTS & Jesus Christ which means only Jerusalem can be Babylon. Carefully read these scriptures from the KJV. Let’s look at the use of the word “GREAT CITY’ in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 21 is the last time that GREAT CITY is used and it is HOLY JERUSALEM. Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that GREAT CITY, the holy JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven from God, GREAT CITY is first used in Revelation 11:8 where the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in the street… Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called SODOM and EGYPT, where also our LORD was CRUCIFIED. Jesus was crucified in the GREAT CITY Jerusalem and Revelation 18 now tells us that the GREAT CITY is BABYLON - it couldn’t be any clearer. Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that GREAT CITY BABYLON, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Rome, USA, Mecca didn’t kill the Old Testament PROPHETS so they CANNOT be Babylon. Jerusalem killed the Prophets and is therefore Babylon. Revelation 18:24 18 And in her (Babylon) was found the blood of PROPHETS, and of SAINTS, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Revelation 17:5-6 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, BABYLON The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the SAINTS, and with the blood of the MARTYRS of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Matthew 23:34-37 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye SHALL KILL and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous ABEL unto the blood of ZACHARIAH (A to Z and also from the first person killed in the OT to the last - profound) son of Barachias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that KILLEST the PROPHETS, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have OF THE JEWS: 15 Who BOTH KILLED the Lord Jesus, and THEIR OWN PROPHETS, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are CONTRARY to (against) ALL men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the WRATH is come upon them to the UTTERMOST. Luke 13:34-35 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which KILLEST the PROPHETS, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, UNTIL THE TIME COME WHEN YE SHALL SAY, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. RUclips search - “Valiant Baptist Church Mystery Babylon Part 1, 2, 3” as the pastor uses ONLY the bible to prove who Babylon is.
Great episode! Now that Jesus been recovered as a Torah observant Jew, we need to (faithfully to the texts) extend the discussion to look at Paul, no longer as the arch heretic of Judaism, but as deeply part of it. Would be great to see "Paul within Judaism" scholars such as Mark Nanos on the programme.
I love the sentiment about the Jewish roots, without the messiah though what is Judaism? This is either a God that fulfills his scriptures or one that abandons the temple and doesn't present the messiah (prior to the destruction of thesecond temple)(I have a suggestion.....)
"I don't think you sacrifice the particulars of your own faith on the altar of interfaith sensitivity" (Amy-Jill Levine). Yes; but that's exactly what Giles Fraser and the Anglican Church has a tendency to do. They appear to be so embarrassed and apologetic about Christianity that no one, even their own parishioners, can take them seriously, which is one of the _many_ reasons that Anglicanism will be more or less dead in a generation.
It's a shame this discussion never mentioned the pagan religions of the Roman Empire. Christianity in becoming the state religion of Rome had to subjugate these other religions. So things like the Sunday Sabbath were meant to attract pagans as well as to alienate Jews and enforce the dominance of Christianity. Even though Christ himself obviously kept the Jewish Sabbath. This drive to make Christianity dominant is a key reason for diminishing the Jewish heritage of Jesus Christ. When Giles says Christianity is rootless he's wrong of course as it's rooted in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, the political expediency of Rome and influence of pagan beliefs coopted into Christianity shouldn't be over looked.
AJ seems to have a more preceptive insight into how Christians should interact with Jews than Giles Fraser. Given that Fraser attended Norman Malcolm's seminars on Wittgenstein at King's College, I sense that he hasn't learned anything about thinking from that experience. If Christ IS the MESSIAH, why would anybody not want to share the good news?
It's not the Jewishness of Jesus that is the problem, nor is it His Messiahship, but it is His incarnation in Matthew chapter 1, you shall call His name Jesus Emmanuel God with us, and John chapter 1v1-3 The Word who was in the beginning who was with God and was God and everything that was created by Him, and His equality with God, not by Luciferian ambition, or Eve's enticement to follow his example, but when He eternally was equal with God, He emptied Himself to become a slave of God to become sin for us, to redeem and rescue a ruined Creation No truth is greater than this, and although it is true that He took the seed of Abraham and David to fulfill all the promises that God gave to Abraham and David, none of this is possible if the Eternal Word had not become flesh, to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, so debates about the Jewishness of Jesus is interesting, neither Mormons nor Jehovah Witnesses, nor Jews, or Muslims, will escape the eternal judgment of God if they reject the fact that God came in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth
Way to erase Jesus' personhood. BTW if you want the original Word figure in Jesus' (and his followers' and family's) ancient tradition, look for the figure of Wisdom in Proverbs -- who happens to be personified as a female in the text. She through whom everything was created. Surprise!
I remember two years before Covid starting getting a knock on the door, I use to think oh my christians leave me alone! what do you know kids asking me if i wanna read their Tanakh and talk to them about it in a week. what a suprise i was under the assumption only christians not any sort of jews do that. speaking from experience here i never asked them what synagogue they came from.
Generally love AJ but disagree with her implication near the end that a typological lectionary is necessarily supercessionist - or at least they type of supercessionism that equals “abrogation “
@@michaeldukes4108 I wouldn't put it quite like that, But for me being a Christian and belonging to a denomination can be two different things. Our Lord and St. Paul made it clear that walking with our Saviour requires heartfelt repentance and as a consequence, the indwelling transformative power of the Holy Spirit. So regardless of a person's background, race, religion we are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus who is the Head of the Church.
Thank God - thank you God for choosing me to be a Christian! What a relief! This peace I have is sublime. And what a relief in comparison to the unsettled nature of Giles! I question if SJW Giles was ever a Christian as no Born Again Christian would think they needed to work out what to do with their lives. A Born Again Christian would know God has plans for him and would seek God first in all things. I found it very myopic when Giles said the Nazi's were bombing Golders Green (because there were Jews living there - nothing like there is today) and not the whole of Europe and much of the UK! May Christ chose him and show him peace. I fear his ego will prevent him from ever even seeing that Christ is calling him. Lets pray for God's will to be done!
According to the philologist and philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, all of world history can be summed up in one sentence: the struggle between Israel and Rome. ‘Das Symbol dieses Kampfes, in einer Schrift geschrieben, die über alle Menschengeschichte hinweg bisher lesbar blieb, heisst „Rom gegen Judäa, Judäa gegen Rom“: - es gab bisher kein grösseres Ereigniss als diesen Kampf, diese Fragestellung, diesen todfeindlichen Widerspruch.‘ (Genealogie der Moral, I 16.)
Messianic judaism (judaism that accepts Jesus as the messiaha) anyone? :) *Dr. Michael Brown* (ethnic jew who accepts Jesus as the messiaha) really should have been on the show. His massive "Answering jewish objections to Jesus" is amazing. Isaia 53, anyone? :) The historical evidence for the resurrection anyone as seen in "the case for the resurrection of christ" by Gary Habermas and "the resurrection of jesus: a historiogeographical approach" anyone?
Jews have actually read Isaiah 53, and guess what? They don't see Jesus there. There's not just one "messiah," and btw Jews WROTE THE BOOK. But you know better? Seriously? What nerve. People like Michael Brown argue like Christians, because they're Christians. His ethnicity doesn't automatically mean he'll speak more effectively to *Jewishly educated* Jews than any Christian does. Throwing in a few Hebrew words and phrases are patronizing to Jews, and mean nothing. Non-Christian Jews have heard his arguments (they're not very different from other Christians'), and are not impressed. (Some ethnically Jewish Christians who throw in "cute" Yiddishisms and jokes about how Jews talk fast, or use their hands when they talk, are utterly offensive.) Nope. No contemporary, independent evidence of Jesus' existence survives. The historiography on it is clear. So, no proof of any resurrection that a modern historian would accept. (And yes, I have a graduate degree, trained in historical methods and theory at a Research 1 university.)
@@Historian212 How is it offensive for ethnic Jews to use Yiddishisms? It doesn't matter what someone believes, if they are ethnically Jews and have been raised as such then why shouldn't they be allowed to speak their own language and comment on their own cultural practises just because they hold Christian theology?
My thoughts are those who "God" calls His children. No matter what they were before that time. "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"
That JUDAS had a meditative experience of Christ that lasted a week and, historic Jesuses are Barabbi, does not make Christianity false: quite the opposite.
@@Historian212 I'm only pointing out that there was no individual human Jesus Christ. Judas had a meditative experience of Christ, Christ is a meditative experience. The secret sayings over one week is a record of Judas' meditative experience.
Good content and honest dialogue. The race of Jesus didn't come into it all , this would helped know why division really exist. Christian Zonism represented a little bit but Jewish Zoinism was not represented. Islamic theology which is actually the middle ground for both Jews and Christians was also left out.
The messiah was supposed to bring about an age of peace love and understanding. That didn’t happen. Second century followers of Jesus could have thought it could still happen but now we no it didn’t happen.
Not sure what Rev. Fraser is saying. No orthodox Christian says that they can ignore Old Testament. Christians have always believed you can't understand New Testament without Old Testament.
Flavious Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, book 18 "The Jews had, for a great while, three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves. The sect of the Essens and the sect of the Sadducees and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees" These are the three sects of Judaism identified by Jewish historian, Josephus. However, in the Brit'Chadasha (New Testament) we read of a forth sect. In Mattityahu (Matthew) chapter 10:4 we read, "Simon the Zealot" Within 1st century Israeli society despite the differences between these sects, there authenticity to Judaism was never brought into question. For example, the blessed Pharisees who held to the belief in a final resurrection of the dead and an oral form of the Torah we're in disagreement with the Saducees who didn't accept the belief in a final resurrection of the dead or the concept of an oral form of Torah revealed to Moshe at Mount Sinai. The Saducees we're the Jews who held authority with respect to the Beit-HaMikdash (The Temple) Dr. David Flusser an Orthodox Jewish scholar and Professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem we're he taught second Temple Judaism and the rise of early 'Christianity' said and I quote, "I think that the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber was right when he said that we can hear from the Gospels Jesus’ own voice when we know how to hear and he made this movement" It's clear Dr. Flusser believed the Messianic sect of Judaism founded by Rabbi Yeshua was Judaism and not 'Christianity' Infact, in the early 18th - 19th century a Polish Jew known to us as The Ba'al Shem Tov founded an expression of Judaism called the Chasidic (Hasidic) movement. In the beginning, the Rebbe was widely rejected and like his earliest followers persecuted. Today, the Chasidic movement thee most observed expression of Judaism. What's the difference between these intertestimental sects of Judaism and the Chasidic movement to Jesus? None. Wether Traditional Jews like to admit it or not 'Christianity' is and always will be a sect of Judaism and those Gentiles who convert are infact converting to Judaism. Edith Schaffer the wife of the great Jewish scholar Francis Schaffer is in agreement with me. Do you think it's time to reconnect to the Judaism of Yeshua?
The difference is Christians don't hold by the mitzvot and so they are outside judaism. Christians are not jews and your self apologetics reads farfetched
@@shlomicohen2341 And that's what they are, all glories to them. But Jews they are not. Also, judaism as a living reality has moved on since 80 CE, as has Christianity
Born Again Christians don't baptize their children do they? Why would anyone baptize a child? Surely you can only be born again and baptised when God choses you - not your parents? What am I missing?
Lots of protestants don't, they hold to credo baptism. Baptists dont do it for example, but Presbyterians do baptise babies/kids. So do Moravians and congragationalists and several others.
How is man who practices Jewish rituals in his home, has an Israeli wife, and is raising his children Jewish allowed to be a Christian priest? Absolutely bonkers.
I found it. Here it is. Matthew 1:1 The genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham. The first book of the N.T., in the first Chapter, of the first verse. I have to admit, that didn't take very long.
I was raised in a Christian home. As I continued to read the Bible and study history I began to find the Christian holidays evermore offensive and full of idolatry. So I started dropping them, one at a time till there weren't any left except Thanksgiving. My eyes began to open to the relevance of the biblical Holy Days and the true Sabbath. I have now been observing the Spring and Fall Festivals since 2014 and find them to be so much more fulfilling even though I observe them alone.
Does the UK have an equivalent to judicial review whereby the courts could strike down this legislation for being unconstitutional? The bill seems antithetical to very well-established rights.
I didn't understand the last section of the conversation. I got that the Tanakh doesn't point to Jesus, that Jews interpret the various 'proof prophecies' differently, but who then is Jesus, according to Amy-Jill and Giles Fraser?
Only if you read it that way. It depends on how you look at it, how you were taught. Unfortunately, most Christians never read beyond their doctrines, and pretend they can tell Jews what their own texts say. Talk about misappropriation.
@@Historian212 It must be so infuriating. Whenever i have questions (...ok,I ALWAYS have questions) about the Tanakh or Torah,I ask a rebbe. Not a vicar. I learned quickly.
Maybe one reason that Jewish lineage became matrilineal is because that was the only way to guarantee Jewish blood in the offspring, (given the potential that the mother could always have been a victim of rape, &/or partaken in an adulterous affair with a gentile man).
'At bottom there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross.... It is an error amounting to nonsensicality to see in 'faith', and particularly in faith in salvation through Christ, the distinguishing mark of the Christian: only the Christian way of life, the life lived by him who died on the cross, is Christian'. - Friedrich Nietzsche, 'The Antichrist', 1888. Chew on that Giles.
According to the philologist and philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, all of world history can be summed up in one sentence: the struggle between Israel and Rome. ‘Das Symbol dieses Kampfes, in einer Schrift geschrieben, die über alle Menschengeschichte hinweg bisher lesbar blieb, heisst „Rom gegen Judäa, Judäa gegen Rom“: - es gab bisher kein grösseres Ereigniss als diesenKampf, dieseFragestellung, diesen todfeindlichen Widerspruch.‘ (Genealogie der Moral, I 16.)
Jesus superseded and transcended the preconceptions of history, theology, and traditions all refer to within the New Testament. He wasn't some chap who arrived on the scene and thought he'd have a go at being the expected Messiah/Christ. He wasn't made God by his disciples. In the Old Testament, God wasn't a Jew, the angels, Abraham, Moses, weren't Jewish, especially in the sense that they got their authority from God and not by men. Judaism had a chequered past of doing evil in God's sight and mixing his commandments with the gods of the other nations, even rejecting God as their king and asking for an earthly one like the other nations. The Apostles and Paul got their authority directly from Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and the angels. They didn't argue by faith, but be direct knowledge. At the time of Jesus, there was as much diversity of beliefs as it is today, so in kind, we are repeating history in that announced his first appearing when the wise men came to Jerusalem looking for the King.
The first sentence in your post is just not a reading of the Jesus in the texts. He absolutely did not supersede or "transcend" anything. He taught a particular interpretation of the "law and the prophets" -- that's Torah and Nevi'im -- and the gospels quote from Psalms and other ancient Jewish texts. Most of his miracles were copies of those done by Moses, Elijah, and others, and the "resurrection" wasn't even part of the Christian tradition until long after Jesus and his apostles were gone. But hey, you do you.
@@Historian212 Conspiracies, conspiracies, you have to show validation for your onspiracies, such as manuscripts that doesn't have the death and resurrection and the miracles in them. All manuscripts have them. So going by those, who was Jesus Christ? Matthew 1 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Luke 1 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Hebrews 1 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Paul 1 Timothy 3 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. John 17 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, I reject you criticism on the bases that these text places Jesus Christ before he created the world and show him as the one who communicated all things of the patriarchs, prophets, priests and Kings of Old Testament. The Lord or the Sabbath. Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
@@everythingisupsidedown9593 ...(53:09) speaking of coming and GOING...did you hear the bit about The Occupy elderly protest gal who evacuate her bowels in the Cathedral ....Giles considers the stunt an "interesting" theological dilemma...
It’s hard to accept both the orthodox Christian belief that claims that Jesus was the ‘Son of God’ promised in Scriptures and the most probable fact that biblical Jews would have perceived such belief as blasphemy. I can see how you might accept one or the other. But it seems eccentric to think that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah that Jews don’t have to embrace. One wonders, no matter how Jewish we find Christ, if some sort of supercessionism is not going to be inevitable in Christian Readings of the Old Testament.
Nicodemus didn’t think it was blasphemy. He knew Jesus was the Messiah. Unquote “ the things you do could only come from God”. Most Jews of the 1sr century believed in a coming of Messiah but they believed “it’s not that guy Jesus”.
20:00. "Jesus wasn't a Christian"...only a liberal yewish Anglican can make such a statement. SMH. Christ is the Greek word for Moshiach or anointed One, so he's saying that Yeshua isn't the Messiah? That's what Christian means, Anointed One, I've heard enough...
I'm not a liberal yewish [sic] Anglican, but I make the same statement. Where in scripture does it call Him "Jesus Christian"? Christian means Christ follower, one who believes in the Messiah-hood of Jesus. Some of His followers call themselves Messianic, meaning they believe and follow the Messiah's teachings.
I wasn't sure at first but that was generally excellent! I was a little thrown by AJ's reference neighbours and strangers - I really do hesistate to suggest she may have missed something here, but surely, in the Parabe of the Good Samaritan, Jesus effectively brought sworn enemies into the definition of neighbours, and, while I wouldn't disagree that people CLAIMING to be Christians have killed opponents throughout history, Jesus NEVER did anything other than say love your enemy. Power and the partisan agendas of those charged with leadership have, as Giles intimated, done so much to corrupt the Church and sabotage its mission - and that should leave little doubt as to who or what was being followed by those responsible - and still actions,.
You are reading a particular view of Jesus into the records. In fact he was no better able to follow his own preaching than any one else. He talked like an angel, but lived like a man.
Please don't do the "no true Scotsman" bit here. Those people didn't claim to be Christians, they WERE Christians, and it's time Christians like you acknowledge that fully.
No you spoke about post Nicien, you should to go to syriac fathers Ephrem and Ephrahat and others and how they understood the believe in Jesus and they had a lot of discussion dialog with Jewish community on his time
It's all about Jesus as Messiah (or not). C.S. Lewis’ most compelling arguments for the deity of Jesus is that fact that Jesus forgave sins. And He forgave sins, not those sins committed against Him, but those done against others, as though He were the chief one offended. Lewis writes, “He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin.”
No one needs to convert to become Jew ~ or become a Christian. The human race, of all nations, can be just who they are, and do their best to be a moral-ethic person, but with the Creator in mind.
Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) came not to start a new religion, but to fulfil the Word. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
The OT relied on a Temple built with hands. But is now gone and that covenant relied on the Temple. Jesus replaced the Temple, and returned when the Temple was destroyed.
And we have modern judaism resting on the works of our sages who made sure judaism could endure even without a temple, and it does so until today, even when christians succeeded in many jews.
@@urbandiscount Modern Judaism is not legitimate with God, the Torah was given to Abraham. I have a Ytube video 'Is Abraham the father of Christians, Jews or Muslims? #26 Myths in so-called Christianity' which exposes so-called Christianity, Judaism and Islam as none have their roots in the Torah given to Abraham. The previous videos in the series also have content on the subject.
The only truth is Christ. As much as you want to deny Christ. He is still The First and Last. Son of God. He is greater than Moses. He is The Messiah. King of Kings.
Please Jewish gathered in 80 BC at Jamanya and they considered the Jesus followers as sect So Jewish did not be open to understood the followers of Jesus
The Jewish messiah is not and never was a personal savior. The Jewish messiah was never the son of God. The Jewish messiah was supposed to bring about an age of peace love and understanding.
Giles Frasier sould not be drinking wine and "debating" he sounds like my alcoholic step dad trying to lecture me on religion. Hes all over the place, one. Two Amy-Jill doesn't understand what Jesus was here to do or who Jesus really is. I guess thats why Jews are not followers of Jesus, makes sense now. I think the topic of this video should have been Jews view of Christianity and a guy. 😅
There are so many fallacies and misleading statements about the nature of the Gospel and the teachings of both Christ and the Apostles. First of all both of these people appear to lack the clear fundamental difference between what Jesus taught, who He claimed to be, and what His Apostles instructed His disciples to carry out after His Ascension. What we are left with is an obfuscation of the biblical and historical Christ pontificated through the lens of an argument of authority. You can be highly educated and still ignorant of the Truth. You can use Greek and Hebrew and miss the broadside of a barn with fallacious positions. You can be a pastor and still not understand Christ. That's clear on both people's parts. Smart people, very, very misleading statements. Find me the Scripture where Christ or the Apostles teach that heretics are to be killed. Find me the Scripture where Christ or the Apostles taught that allying with the world's political systems is part of the Gospel. This horrible outright lie that Christ and the Apostles didn't quite or correctly handle the Tanakh is beyond stupid. Dr Levine either knows that's a lie or she doesn't know anywhere near as much as she imagined about Christ or His followers. Not to mention the fact that a non Christian's OPINION about Jesus is not authoritative or informative to the believer. At all. Not even a little bit. Mr Frazer should know as a "pastor" that the framework of Christian doctrine was not "post Nicean" . The teachings of the Apostles predate the Council of Nicean by several hundred years. Both of these bloated "intellectuals" should also have the decency and the awareness to recognize that you don't judge a religion based on the people who misue and abuse it for their gain. You examine the founder, their life, the manuscript evidence, and the reliability for human flourishing that the source material prescribes. I could go on but my head hurts and there's not enough ibuprofen in the world to quell how much dumber I am for having subjected myself to this mental dumpster fire. This was messy, irresponsible, and very poor representation of Christ, His teachings, and the clear commands He left all of us. Shameful, just shameful.
From listing to the conversation, the answer to the title of the video “Judaism & Christianity: Can we recover the Jewish Jesus?” is why bother because who cares? I did enjoy the conversation; the guest was friendly, but the discussion boiled down to it doesn’t matter if we can or not. Or to put in in 2016 jargon, “You do you boo.” I did like the tone of the conversation. The issue I had is that the title was misleading; I watched this to hear more on that subject. A better title would have been Judaism & Christianity: Can't we all just get along? It is refreshing to see two people with two different religions get along and promote better conversations between the two groups, but that was not what the title repaired me for.
You might enjoy books by the scholar Paula Fredriksen, a historian of early Christianity. She wrote "From Jesus to Christ," but the better book is her followup, "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" -- and subsequent writings (this is according to the author). She felt, after a few years, that "From Jesus to Christ" didn't get it quite right. And although she appears in the series that was named for that book, she has said that she didn't like the way it was done.
All blather....if only HE would do something about this miserable virus......what with his alleged Compassion and all that. But, that's navel-gazing Theology for you. Its a mild way to pass 90 mins or so
As a Messianic Jew myself, an ethnic Jew who believes that Jesus is our Messiah and King...that was infuriating! I find myself nodding along, "Yes, yes" at one moment, and then at the very next sentence, "No! No, no, no."
You are a Jew who's a Christian. Any Jew who expects the Messiah is a Messianic Jew. It's a misnomer.
@@Historian212
That's very true, yes. One can't even suggest that we Messianic Jews are the ones who believe that Messiah has already come. There have been and are other sects of Judaism who have believed the same thing about other men. The Rebbe Schneerson, for example.
You're absolutely right that it is a bit of a misnomer. However, for better or worse, precedent has been set and the term "Messianic Jew" has widely been known to have one primary meaning for the past half century, and that is "ethnic Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah."
A message that I frequently attempt to communicate to the Christian church, and something that would help bring a little perspective and clarity, is that Christianity IS Judaism. That is, it is an extension of Abrahamic Judaism, just as modern Rabbinic Judaism is a sect of Abrahamic Judaism. In fact, Christianity (or, "Messianic Judaism") is OLDER than Rabbinic Judaism; Christianity beginning with the ministry, death, and resurrection of Messiah and Rabbinic Judaism being created after the destruction of the temple in 70ad and it's formation being largely influenced by a reaction to these "Christian Jews" and their inclusion of Gentiles into the synagogue.
Christianity is not a separate religion. It is an extension of Abrahamic Judaism. It IS Judaism. That understanding could help bring clarity to others about how we get names such as "Messianic Judaism."
Thank you for your comment. God bless you.
@@jachinputnam7459
"I find myself nodding along, "Yes, yes" at one moment, and then at the very next sentence, "No! No, no, no.""
And there is something surprising about this?
I am of the opinion that when we get home (heaven) we'll smack ourselves on the forehead and say OF COURSE! It's all so clear and simple, why didn't I see this before.
of course (as always) I..Could..Be..Wrong.
@@stevenwiederholt7000
Absolutely. And no, not surprising in the least. :)
@@jachinputnam7459 You're a christian, not a jew anymore. Rambam is quite clear on that.
Amy -Jill Levine is such a sweetheart!...I asked her once at the question and answer session after a liberal church lecture...why she as an "unbeliever" became a scholar of the New Testament? ...she curtly corrected me, that first all, she is not an "unbeliever" merely because she doesn't believe exactly like me...and then kindly responded to my question...that she didn't start out interested in studying the New Testament, but rather she was interested in studying 2nd temple/1st century Judaism ...and she discovered that the New Testament was one of the best historical sources for 1st century Judaism...I've repeated that story dozens of times since...particularly when engaging those scoffing skeptics who declare that the New Testament contains only myth and no history...
What the hell is a 'sweetheart'?
@@everythingisupsidedown9593 ...Google it
@@anarchorepublican5954 ;-D
Giles Fraser appears to be the archetypal contemporary Anglican priest: always say exactly what you think is politically correct. Its interesting that Amy-Jill Levine, a non-Christian, has to point out the obvious to him. There is nothing wrong with bearing _witness_ to your own faith in Christ to the non-Christian jewish people. Anglicans are so anxious not to offend non-christians that they end up demeaning their own faith.
Muslims dont do PC shit, how about reading Quran? ^_^
@@hassanmirza2392
Sorry Sir, we're not interested in Jewish fables.
@@hassanmirza2392 No Mirza, we don't need Talmud 2.0
@@dantejager9296 You are a fabricator.
Well, some people would hit the roof at somebody trying to convert them. People are individuals.
Thank you Justin for this conversation. I am a Christian (Follower of Christ) and I found this discussion was filled with respect, humour, and even, at times -- joy. While I cannot agree with many of the statements, and felt some sadness at the errors, I very much enjoyed listening. Again, thank you for hosting this episode.
My best friend in secondary school was Jewish, and as Jewish a man, and as English a man as ever I met. Mature beyond his years, I learned much from him, not least about Judaism and English folk music. I loved his wonderful, bright-eyed, witty, conspiratorial, mother as my own. He died in his mid-20s. His funeral was in the village where he had married and made his home. His parents chose the Anglican church there for his service. We sang "Morning Has Broken" and buried him in the churchyard. His mother held my hand. We winked at God. He winked back. If anyone has criticisms of us for this, I won't be listening.
The big difference is that Jesus is the Passover lamb. It is God, giving his blood instead of asking for it.
Wow, how profound is this simple comment?
Passover has nothing to do with sin. The blood only protects the firstborn and has nothing to do with their sin status.
@@theunapologeticjew Exactly. We don’t even have a the concept of “sin” to begin with.
@@terrygodgirl4430 wow - how stupid can it get..?!
@@theunapologeticjew
It's symbolically joined with the blood spilt on the day of Atonement. The passover lamb is connected what Christians believe is that on the passover Jesus becomes the passover lamb. He is the one whos blood is split to make atonement.
The firstborn is connected to the first born man who rebelled against God. So it takes a new Adam, Christ, who becomes the atonement for the forgiveness of sin that doesn't need to be repeated.
The 'upgrade' was forgiveness.
To have sins pardoned is a blessing and thanks to Jesus past sins can be forgiven, for those who are sanctified.
So, you're saying that God changed it's mind?
@@MrAbuYaz No.
There was no forgiveness of past sins in the Mosaic Law, as no offering can pay for sins, as sins have to be forgiven for those who deserve that mercy.
Those who lived by faith before Jesus were saved by God's grace, but now those who live by faith require the grace in final judgement by Christ.
@Simon Skinner that is Christian doctrine, not Jewish. Of course Jews are forgiven, if they repent, make restitution, and then live differently. What does the scripture say: God doesn't need blood sacrifice, but a broken and contrite heart. Look it up. The Tanakh is full of God's grace. Study what Jews teach about Judaism, not what Christians believe. You might learn something interesting.
@@Historian212 Too true.
The Jew was under Melchisedech before Moses. The blood of Jesus only encapsulated the law of righteousness into the new covenant
No offering can take away sin.
There were offerings for sin throughout the biblical period, including the barbaric ‘scapegoat’ procedure. God’s forgiveness didn’t requre a human sacrifice, according to Judaism. That is the whole point of the ‘sacrifice of Isaac’ story.
All Christian’s knew Christianity existed after Jesus and was the known “The Way” or “the Nazarenes” as often referred to by the Jewish. But the teachings & principals of Jesus is the foundation of the modern Christianity!
And I hope Pope Francis takes his own advice about not using “Pharisee” as a derogatory term because he has done this regularly (for example with respect to his conservative catholic critics )
Why its true as Peter stated to the Israelites, "You with the help of those who have no law" (Gentiles -Romans) put Jesus to death.
Jesus stated, "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
So from that context no one killed Jesus rather He thought you were to die for.
I am a Christian a follower of Christ, the early church were not called Christians, they were referred to as followers of the way. Most of them were Jewish, the term Christian did not arise until Acts 11. Since that time we have become known universally as Christian, those of us who are and also sadly, anyone from a western country in general comes under this term. The Jews however who believed in their Mashiak are still Jewish, they haven't lost their Jewishness, we've lost mainly via Rome, the Jewishness of our faith. Ruth the gentile said to Naomi the Jew. "your God will be my God and your people will be my people". Im a wild olive grafted in.
Who needs antidepressant tablets after listening to this. absolutely brilliant
I love the Jewish people and i thank God for them.
How can a Christian be anti semitic??
"You killed our Lord".
No,kid.
Our Lord gave himself freely.
And asked Ha'shem to forgive both Roman and Jew who were involved in his torture.
Being an antisemitic Christian, is an oxymoron.
Wonderful conversation and much needed in our society. Thank you.
justin I always enjoy much of your programming. I very much enjoy your disposition toward others even when they do not agree with you. in this exchange I just don't think the priority of Christ. the absolute miracle of salvation in His work was appreciated. this could have been teased out. however we want to explore his very real humanity in the context of Judaism ultimately there are not any other ways by which a man can be made right with God. there was value in the history but felt a little lite on who Jesus ultimately is. much love
The most memorable bit to me was Giles saying that Christians remember the sacrificial system through Holy Communion, and for me this is the wonder and glory of salvation brought us through our Lord's giving of Himself for our sins.
Why do they think we've lost the Jewish Jesus? A Christian is one who is saved by Jesus' death & resurrection, so, no, Jesus wasn't a Christian. The Pharisees were zealous for the Law, but they failed to understand the human heart - they concentrated on the letter & ignored the spirit. That was what Jesus condemned them for. The Jewish leaders, together with the Pharisees, opposed Jesus & subsequently the Christians. They were the ones with power, it was no wonder Christians felt they were their enemies. When the Christians were in power they responded to the enmity they had known. One wonders how much these two knew of Church History.
Of course, Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT, that is why Christianity doesn't have a sacifice, it has already taken place.
It would be nice to have a Christian on Unbelievable.
I don't think that many people think that Jesus is 'Christian.' It's only a few days ago that I saw ONE person having writen that in a RUclips comment section. I took him for a TROLL☆
He was the Christ and people named his followers after him.
He wasn't related to modern day Jews I can assure you that!
@@beulahnisly2982the first christians were called Sybilists. Obviously it took a while for the Greek title "Christ" to truly set in.
I did enjoy the conversation but Giles felt to much like a fanboy of Jill's and was not willing to tackle the hard issues. It would have been a deeper conversation with someone like Dr. Michael Brown or Dr. Michael Heiser.
About Jesus interpreting law, my take:
The point is the change is from the level of acts as primary to that of the mind.
"As a person thinks in his heart"= mind. "The kingdom of heaven is within you." Yes, "and among you" but the mind is primary. And "heart", mind = inner spirit.
I’m Jewish and I thought this was a great conversation! Also, as a Russian native, I really liked when Giles said Christians are the real “rootless cosmopolitans”; I’m keeping that one in my back pocket for possible future use. 😉There were a LOT of great insights here. Please have more interfaith discussions. Good job! 👍
Yes I hear you, we come together on so many things. I suppose we see the coming of the Messiah but both agree that the messiah brings in worldwide peace.
Baruch HaShem
Tory voting tools are what British Christians are.
One of the most intellectual and inspiring conversation by great human being discussing the message of Christ of reconciliation. Let us put aside the saying I love jacob and hate Esau and following Joseph who married an Egyptian and told his brothers 2 lovely things, first, you meant to me evil but God meant of the evil a great good, and the second , do not fight amongst yourself on the way. God bless you Justin fro bringing these two fabulous people, I am a fan of Dr. A Jill Levine for more than 5 years . And delighted to get aquatinted with dear Giles Fraizer.
I can hear N.T. Wright screaming through this entire discussion.
Can you be more specific? What would he be screaming?
Why? Because everything wasn’t obfuscated by endless misleading analogies and theological argle bargle?
22:00 is he saying Jesus wasn't omniscient so wasn't God? Also it seems he did have a fully formed Christian philosophy if you read John
The oldest Gospel of Mark has ZERO claims of a Jesus being supernaturally conceived.
Giles says "Christianity is weird as a religion insofar as the person who, as it were founded it, wasn't a member of the religion he actually founded."
You could say the same about Guatama Buddha. He was a Hindu, not a Buddhist.
Regarding teachings - what "upgrades" did Jesus Christ bring? The Golden Rule for one.
Many will say that he was not the first to do so. But you are thinking of "Silver Rules". Any such formula which involves reciprocity is a "Silver Rule", named after the Moon's reflecting of the Sun's light. "Do unto others as you would be done to yourself" - that's Silver. We can find Silver Rules in their more judgemental aspect too - "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" - perfect reciprocity - solid silver.
A true Golden Rule - such as "Love your enemy" - cannot have a lower aspect.
Confucius wrote a the golden rule 500+ yrs earlier
@@tripp8833Is this the one you mean?
Zi gong (a disciple of Confucius) asked: “Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?”
The Master replied: “How about ‘shu’ [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?”
-Confucius, Analects XV.24
@@moonsphere1750 yes that is the Golden rule
@@tripp8833 Yes, but in the light of Jesus Christ it isn't the Golden Rule which saves and transforms us; it's Jesus Himself through the Holy Spirit.
@@h54h52 agree ❤️
A biblical Jew is a Christian. Bible is crystal clear on this...
Firstly, the promise to Abraham was made to BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ (Melchizedek). Jesus is God (John 1:1) and God manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
The seed of the promise made to Abraham is SINGULAR, not plural. Abraham’s seed (descendant) is Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith NOT, And to SEEDS, as of MANY; but as of ONE, And to THY SEED, which is CHRIST.
Galatians 3:29
And IF ye be Christ's, THEN are ye Abraham's SEED, and HEIRS according to the PROMISE.
Secondly, in the bible we have physical Jews and physical Israel and spiritual Jews and spiritual Israel - discerning the distinction when reading scripture is key.
Romans 2:28-29 tells us that a true, spiritual Jew is a saved Christian.
Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Thirdly, Gods covenant with Israel was CONDITIONAL on the physical Jews being OBEDIENT and KEEPING His COMMANDMENTS (note the use of the word “IF”) in Exodus 19 below.
They weren’t obedient, they didn’t keep the commandments, they rejected the prophets that God sent them, they rejected and killed Jesus and the apostles.
Compare Exodus 19:5-7 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and you will see that the peculiar treasure (chosen people), and the royal priesthood and an holy nation is - it’s saved believers in Jesus Christ.
Exodus 19:5-7 (KJV)
5 Now therefore, IF ye will OBEY my voice indeed, and KEEP MY COVENANT, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
Exodus 24:7-8
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
we christians have not replaced Israel, the jews are on pause, though they started playing again at the jews return to Israel which happened may 1948 which is prophesied in Ezekiel and Leviticus (do a Google search on this prophesy, its long and on 2 places). Israel/the jews is the future church after Christs return, and they will be together with remnants of ancient assyria and Egypt (Isaiah 19).
Unfortunately you are totally wrong.
There are only Jews. Christian is a mock term from the Romans. Jews are chosen by God, and when chosen a Gentile becomes a Jew.
@@someonethatisachristian wrong. The Bible makes it clear that God created a new people and gave them the kingdom that He took away from the ethnic Jews for he rejected them in their disobedience.
@@someonethatisachristian - Jerusalem is Babylon - Babylon is the GREAT CITY in the Book of Revelation and Jerusalem killed the PROPHETS, APOSTLES, SAINTS & Jesus Christ which means only Jerusalem can be Babylon.
Carefully read these scriptures from the KJV.
Let’s look at the use of the word “GREAT CITY’ in the Book of Revelation.
Revelation 21 is the last time that GREAT CITY is used and it is HOLY JERUSALEM.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that GREAT CITY, the holy JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven from God,
GREAT CITY is first used in Revelation 11:8 where the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in the street…
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called SODOM and EGYPT, where also our LORD was CRUCIFIED.
Jesus was crucified in the GREAT CITY Jerusalem and Revelation 18 now tells us that the GREAT CITY is BABYLON - it couldn’t be any clearer.
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that GREAT CITY BABYLON, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rome, USA, Mecca didn’t kill the Old Testament PROPHETS so they CANNOT be Babylon. Jerusalem killed the Prophets and is therefore Babylon.
Revelation 18:24
18 And in her (Babylon) was found the blood of PROPHETS, and of SAINTS, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Revelation 17:5-6
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, BABYLON The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the SAINTS, and with the blood of the MARTYRS of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Matthew 23:34-37
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye SHALL KILL and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous ABEL unto the blood of ZACHARIAH (A to Z and also from the first person killed in the OT to the last - profound) son of Barachias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that KILLEST the PROPHETS, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have OF THE JEWS:
15 Who BOTH KILLED the Lord Jesus, and THEIR OWN PROPHETS, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are CONTRARY to (against) ALL men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the WRATH is come upon them to the UTTERMOST.
Luke 13:34-35
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which KILLEST the PROPHETS, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, UNTIL THE TIME COME WHEN YE SHALL SAY, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
RUclips search - “Valiant Baptist Church Mystery Babylon Part 1, 2, 3” as the pastor uses ONLY the bible to prove who Babylon is.
What is the point of inviting people on to provide misinformation about Christ and Christianity and not have it robustly challenged?
Great episode! Now that Jesus been recovered as a Torah observant Jew, we need to (faithfully to the texts) extend the discussion to look at Paul, no longer as the arch heretic of Judaism, but as deeply part of it. Would be great to see "Paul within Judaism" scholars such as Mark Nanos on the programme.
And please also Paula Fredriksen !!!🕊🌿
@@thysvanzyl2782 She's the best!
I love the sentiment about the Jewish roots, without the messiah though what is Judaism? This is either a God that fulfills his scriptures or one that abandons the temple and doesn't present the messiah (prior to the destruction of thesecond temple)(I have a suggestion.....)
"I don't think you sacrifice the particulars of your own faith on the altar of interfaith sensitivity" (Amy-Jill Levine). Yes; but that's exactly what Giles Fraser and the Anglican Church has a tendency to do. They appear to be so embarrassed and apologetic about Christianity that no one, even their own parishioners, can take them seriously, which is one of the _many_ reasons that Anglicanism will be more or less dead in a generation.
It's a shame this discussion never mentioned the pagan religions of the Roman Empire. Christianity in becoming the state religion of Rome had to subjugate these other religions. So things like the Sunday Sabbath were meant to attract pagans as well as to alienate Jews and enforce the dominance of Christianity. Even though Christ himself obviously kept the Jewish Sabbath. This drive to make Christianity dominant is a key reason for diminishing the Jewish heritage of Jesus Christ. When Giles says Christianity is rootless he's wrong of course as it's rooted in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, the political expediency of Rome and influence of pagan beliefs coopted into Christianity shouldn't be over looked.
AJ seems to have a more preceptive insight into how Christians should interact with Jews than Giles Fraser. Given that Fraser attended Norman Malcolm's seminars on Wittgenstein at King's College, I sense that he hasn't learned anything about thinking from that experience. If Christ IS the MESSIAH, why would anybody not want to share the good news?
...you've heard of the proverbial "self hating Jew"?...Giles sounds like a "self hating Anglican"...
Ah, you christian suprematists....
It's not the Jewishness of Jesus that is the problem, nor is it His Messiahship, but it is His incarnation in Matthew chapter 1, you shall call His name Jesus Emmanuel God with us, and John chapter 1v1-3 The Word who was in the beginning who was with God and was God and everything that was created by Him, and His equality with God, not by Luciferian ambition, or Eve's enticement to follow his example, but when He eternally was equal with God, He emptied Himself to become a slave of God to become sin for us, to redeem and rescue a ruined Creation
No truth is greater than this, and although it is true that He took the seed of Abraham and David to fulfill all the promises that God gave to Abraham and David, none of this is possible if the Eternal Word had not become flesh, to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, so debates about the Jewishness of Jesus is interesting, neither Mormons nor Jehovah Witnesses, nor Jews, or Muslims, will escape the eternal judgment of God if they reject the fact that God came in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth
Way to erase Jesus' personhood. BTW if you want the original Word figure in Jesus' (and his followers' and family's) ancient tradition, look for the figure of Wisdom in Proverbs -- who happens to be personified as a female in the text. She through whom everything was created. Surprise!
I remember two years before Covid starting getting a knock on the door, I use to think oh my christians leave me alone! what do you know kids asking me if i wanna read their Tanakh and talk to them about it in a week. what a suprise i was under the assumption only christians not any sort of jews do that. speaking from experience here i never asked them what synagogue they came from.
I absolutely love this podcast! amazingly interesting conversation.
Generally love AJ but disagree with her implication near the end that a typological lectionary is necessarily supercessionist - or at least they type of supercessionism that equals “abrogation “
If it's replacement theology it's supercessionist.
Fraser’s jocular tone is really off putting. An absolutely fascinating subject nonetheless. Worth revisiting from a differing perspective.
I agree.
Yeah, he was more interested in kissing AJ’s feet than defending Jesus.
@@michaeldukes4108 I wouldn't put it quite like that, But for me being a Christian and belonging to a denomination can be two different things. Our Lord and St. Paul made it clear that walking with our Saviour requires heartfelt repentance and as a consequence, the indwelling transformative power of the Holy Spirit. So regardless of a person's background, race, religion we are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus who is the Head of the Church.
Thank God - thank you God for choosing me to be a Christian! What a relief! This peace I have is sublime.
And what a relief in comparison to the unsettled nature of Giles! I question if SJW Giles was ever a Christian as no Born Again Christian would think they needed to work out what to do with their lives. A Born Again Christian would know God has plans for him and would seek God first in all things.
I found it very myopic when Giles said the Nazi's were bombing Golders Green (because there were Jews living there - nothing like there is today) and not the whole of Europe and much of the UK!
May Christ chose him and show him peace. I fear his ego will prevent him from ever even seeing that Christ is calling him. Lets pray for God's will to be done!
According to the philologist and philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, all of world history can be summed up in one sentence: the struggle between Israel and Rome.
‘Das Symbol dieses Kampfes, in einer Schrift geschrieben, die über alle Menschengeschichte hinweg bisher lesbar blieb, heisst „Rom gegen Judäa, Judäa gegen Rom“: - es gab bisher kein grösseres Ereigniss als diesen Kampf, diese Fragestellung, diesen todfeindlichen Widerspruch.‘ (Genealogie der Moral, I 16.)
Messianic judaism (judaism that accepts Jesus as the messiaha) anyone? :)
*Dr. Michael Brown* (ethnic jew who accepts Jesus as the messiaha) really should have been on the show. His massive "Answering jewish objections to Jesus" is amazing.
Isaia 53, anyone? :)
The historical evidence for the resurrection anyone as seen in "the case for the resurrection of christ" by Gary Habermas and "the resurrection of jesus: a historiogeographical approach" anyone?
Absolutely.
-Ethnically Jewish Christian.
Jews have actually read Isaiah 53, and guess what? They don't see Jesus there. There's not just one "messiah," and btw Jews WROTE THE BOOK. But you know better? Seriously? What nerve.
People like Michael Brown argue like Christians, because they're Christians. His ethnicity doesn't automatically mean he'll speak more effectively to *Jewishly educated* Jews than any Christian does. Throwing in a few Hebrew words and phrases are patronizing to Jews, and mean nothing. Non-Christian Jews have heard his arguments (they're not very different from other Christians'), and are not impressed. (Some ethnically Jewish Christians who throw in "cute" Yiddishisms and jokes about how Jews talk fast, or use their hands when they talk, are utterly offensive.)
Nope. No contemporary, independent evidence of Jesus' existence survives. The historiography on it is clear. So, no proof of any resurrection that a modern historian would accept. (And yes, I have a graduate degree, trained in historical methods and theory at a Research 1 university.)
@@Historian212
But, the Sages believed Yeshayahu was referring to the Messiah.
@@Historian212 How is it offensive for ethnic Jews to use Yiddishisms? It doesn't matter what someone believes, if they are ethnically Jews and have been raised as such then why shouldn't they be allowed to speak their own language and comment on their own cultural practises just because they hold Christian theology?
It's christiantiy. Not a form of judaism.
My thoughts are those who "God" calls His children. No matter what they were before that time.
"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"
This conversation needed someone to push back.
Like?
Wow, this is quite a conversation.
That JUDAS had a meditative experience of Christ that lasted a week and, historic Jesuses are Barabbi, does not make Christianity false: quite the opposite.
I don't think Prof. Levine asserts that Christianity is false. She teaches at a Christian seminary; why would she do that?
@@Historian212 I'm only pointing out that there was no individual human Jesus Christ. Judas had a meditative experience of Christ, Christ is a meditative experience. The secret sayings over one week is a record of Judas' meditative experience.
I always put “Old” and “New” Testament.
Good content and honest dialogue. The race of Jesus didn't come into it all , this would helped know why division really exist. Christian Zonism represented a little bit but Jewish Zoinism was not represented. Islamic theology which is actually the middle ground for both Jews and Christians was also left out.
The messiah was supposed to bring about an age of peace love and understanding. That didn’t happen. Second century followers of Jesus could have thought it could still happen but now we no it didn’t happen.
Not sure what Rev. Fraser is saying. No orthodox Christian says that they can ignore Old Testament. Christians have always believed you can't understand New Testament without Old Testament.
Christians have always had the the tendency to interpret christian outcomes into Tenakh. That's not "understanding"
Both of these folks really need to study the Shroud of Turin, as it is God who brings anyone to Jesus, including Jews.
Flavious Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, book 18
"The Jews had, for a great while, three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves. The sect of the Essens and the sect of the Sadducees and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees"
These are the three sects of Judaism identified by Jewish historian, Josephus. However, in the Brit'Chadasha (New Testament) we read of a forth sect. In Mattityahu (Matthew) chapter 10:4 we read,
"Simon the Zealot"
Within 1st century Israeli society despite the differences between these sects, there authenticity to Judaism was never brought into question. For example, the blessed Pharisees who held to the belief in a final resurrection of the dead and an oral form of the Torah we're in disagreement with the Saducees who didn't accept the belief in a final resurrection of the dead or the concept of an oral form of Torah revealed to Moshe at Mount Sinai. The Saducees we're the Jews who held authority with respect to the Beit-HaMikdash (The Temple)
Dr. David Flusser an Orthodox Jewish scholar and Professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem we're he taught second Temple Judaism and the rise of early 'Christianity' said and I quote,
"I think that the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber was right when he said that we can hear from the Gospels Jesus’ own voice when we know how to hear and he made this movement"
It's clear Dr. Flusser believed the Messianic sect of Judaism founded by Rabbi Yeshua was Judaism and not 'Christianity'
Infact, in the early 18th - 19th century a Polish Jew known to us as The Ba'al Shem Tov founded an expression of Judaism called the Chasidic (Hasidic) movement. In the beginning, the Rebbe was widely rejected and like his earliest followers persecuted. Today, the Chasidic movement thee most observed expression of Judaism.
What's the difference between these intertestimental sects of Judaism and the Chasidic movement to Jesus? None. Wether Traditional Jews like to admit it or not 'Christianity' is and always will be a sect of Judaism and those Gentiles who convert are infact converting to Judaism. Edith Schaffer the wife of the great Jewish scholar Francis Schaffer is in agreement with me. Do you think it's time to reconnect to the Judaism of Yeshua?
The difference is Christians don't hold by the mitzvot and so they are outside judaism. Christians are not jews and your self apologetics reads farfetched
@@urbandiscount
According to you, yes.
@@shlomicohen2341 you're being disingenuous and you know it.
@urbandiscount
No, I'm not at all. I've met Christians who observe the Mitzvot.
@@shlomicohen2341 And that's what they are, all glories to them. But Jews they are not. Also, judaism as a living reality has moved on since 80 CE, as has Christianity
Born Again Christians don't baptize their children do they? Why would anyone baptize a child? Surely you can only be born again and baptised when God choses you - not your parents? What am I missing?
Lots of protestants don't, they hold to credo baptism. Baptists dont do it for example, but Presbyterians do baptise babies/kids. So do Moravians and congragationalists and several others.
This is a BIG one!!!
We need to see God as *revealed in the Bible* , not as we believe him in our minds, or in our Christian culture. 😊🙏👆🏼🔥
Big AMEN to that.
Fascinating. And brilliant people: great good sense, respect, and great good humour.
I don’t think that Jesus being Jewish and practicing the Judaism of the time is the problem. I think it’s Paul is most misunderstood.
You evangelise by example.
How is man who practices Jewish rituals in his home, has an Israeli wife, and is raising his children Jewish allowed to be a Christian priest? Absolutely bonkers.
This is what happens when you read the bible with your head and not your heart. You end up having talks like this.
I found it. Here it is. Matthew 1:1 The genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham. The first book of the N.T., in the first Chapter, of the first verse. I have to admit, that didn't take very long.
There is an over-2000 year old history of forced baptisms and forced conversions.
I was raised in a Christian home. As I continued to read the Bible and study history I began to find the Christian holidays evermore offensive and full of idolatry. So I started dropping them, one at a time till there weren't any left except Thanksgiving. My eyes began to open to the relevance of the biblical Holy Days and the true Sabbath. I have now been observing the Spring and Fall Festivals since 2014 and find them to be so much more fulfilling even though I observe them alone.
Amen! It's not an upgrade of Judaism, it's an upgrade of the Old Testament. Christianity is a commentary on the OT.
Indeed. But Christians think it's Torah
True, and Jews think Talmud is Torah. Commentary replaces Torah in both.
Lol, I thought today...got me rushing home!
Does the UK have an equivalent to judicial review whereby the courts could strike down this legislation for being unconstitutional? The bill seems antithetical to very well-established rights.
I greatly enjoyed this discussion!
But the gospel needs to be offensive for the jew, how we going to handle that?
I didn't understand the last section of the conversation. I got that the Tanakh doesn't point to Jesus, that Jews interpret the various 'proof prophecies' differently, but who then is Jesus, according to Amy-Jill and Giles Fraser?
Someone only important to judaism because his adherents persecuted us
Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of the Judaic scriptures that foretold of the coming Messiah/Savior.
Only if you read it that way. It depends on how you look at it, how you were taught. Unfortunately, most Christians never read beyond their doctrines, and pretend they can tell Jews what their own texts say. Talk about misappropriation.
@@Historian212
It must be so infuriating.
Whenever i have questions (...ok,I ALWAYS have questions) about the Tanakh or Torah,I ask a rebbe.
Not a vicar.
I learned quickly.
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Maybe one reason that Jewish lineage became matrilineal is because that was the only way to guarantee Jewish blood in the offspring, (given the potential that the mother could always have been a victim of rape, &/or partaken in an adulterous affair with a gentile man).
Rather, it counted children as jewish even if the mother had been raped by a Roman soldier.
No it’s not just power. It’s in the “New” Testament itself.
Jesus brought no new commandment as to love your neighbour as yourself was in the priesthood of Melchisedec at the time of Abraham.
I thought it was love your enemies they said was new with Christ?
@@littleboots9800 The Sermon on the Mount was an aspiration for the kingdom. No longer an eye for an eye but repentance and forgiveness.
2/3 of tbe old testament quotes in the new testament came from the 200BC greek translation.
Well if you’re going to replace the blonde blue eyed Jesus with an African or Black Jesus or a Palestinian is equally wrong.
There is nothing True in the NT, that is New in the Tanach ~ and there is nothing New in the NT, that is True in the Tanach.
'At bottom there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross.... It is an error amounting to nonsensicality to see in 'faith', and particularly in faith in salvation through Christ, the distinguishing mark of the Christian: only the Christian way of life, the life lived by him who died on the cross, is Christian'.
- Friedrich Nietzsche, 'The Antichrist', 1888.
Chew on that Giles.
Nietzsche never claimed to be a prophet so that does not count, we are Christians because we look like Christ.
According to the philologist and philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, all of world history can be summed up in one sentence: the struggle between Israel and Rome.
‘Das Symbol dieses Kampfes, in einer Schrift geschrieben, die über alle Menschengeschichte hinweg bisher lesbar blieb, heisst „Rom gegen Judäa, Judäa gegen Rom“: - es gab bisher kein grösseres Ereigniss als diesenKampf, dieseFragestellung, diesen todfeindlichen Widerspruch.‘ (Genealogie der Moral, I 16.)
Jesus superseded and transcended the preconceptions of history, theology, and traditions all refer to within the New Testament. He wasn't some chap who arrived on the scene and thought he'd have a go at being the expected Messiah/Christ. He wasn't made God by his disciples. In the Old Testament, God wasn't a Jew, the angels, Abraham, Moses, weren't Jewish, especially in the sense that they got their authority from God and not by men. Judaism had a chequered past of doing evil in God's sight and mixing his commandments with the gods of the other nations, even rejecting God as their king and asking for an earthly one like the other nations.
The Apostles and Paul got their authority directly from Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and the angels. They didn't argue by faith, but be direct knowledge.
At the time of Jesus, there was as much diversity of beliefs as it is today, so in kind, we are repeating history in that announced his first appearing when the wise men came to Jerusalem looking for the King.
The first sentence in your post is just not a reading of the Jesus in the texts. He absolutely did not supersede or "transcend" anything. He taught a particular interpretation of the "law and the prophets" -- that's Torah and Nevi'im -- and the gospels quote from Psalms and other ancient Jewish texts. Most of his miracles were copies of those done by Moses, Elijah, and others, and the "resurrection" wasn't even part of the Christian tradition until long after Jesus and his apostles were gone. But hey, you do you.
@@Historian212 Conspiracies, conspiracies, you have to show validation for your onspiracies, such as manuscripts that doesn't have the death and resurrection and the miracles in them. All manuscripts have them.
So going by those, who was Jesus Christ?
Matthew 1
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 1
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Paul
1 Timothy 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 17
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I reject you criticism on the bases that these text places Jesus Christ before he created the world and show him as the one who communicated all things of the patriarchs, prophets, priests and Kings of Old Testament.
The Lord or the Sabbath.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
There is nothing here about the Pharisees in this discussion.
..you've heard of the proverbial "self hating Jew"?...Giles sounds like a "self hating Anglican"..
Giles doesn't know if he is coming or going. Would be very challenging to have him as a father as I am 99% sure everything is about him.
@@everythingisupsidedown9593 ...(53:09) speaking of coming and GOING...did you hear the bit about The Occupy elderly protest gal who evacuate her bowels in the Cathedral ....Giles considers the stunt an "interesting" theological dilemma...
That’s was a wonderful sharing of the minds!
It’s hard to accept both the orthodox Christian belief that claims that Jesus was the ‘Son of God’ promised in Scriptures and the most probable fact that biblical Jews would have perceived such belief as blasphemy. I can see how you might accept one or the other. But it seems eccentric to think that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah that Jews don’t have to embrace. One wonders, no matter how Jewish we find Christ, if some sort of supercessionism is not going to be inevitable in Christian Readings of the Old Testament.
Nicodemus didn’t think it was blasphemy. He knew Jesus was the Messiah. Unquote “ the things you do could only come from God”. Most Jews of the 1sr century believed in a coming of Messiah but they believed “it’s not that guy Jesus”.
Judaism is mystical. Being in Christ is supernatural. 📜🕊️🪔🍞🍷🌾🐑🎚️🎊
20:00. "Jesus wasn't a Christian"...only a liberal yewish Anglican can make such a statement. SMH.
Christ is the Greek word for Moshiach or anointed One, so he's saying that Yeshua isn't the Messiah? That's what Christian means, Anointed One,
I've heard enough...
I'm not a liberal yewish [sic] Anglican, but I make the same statement. Where in scripture does it call Him "Jesus Christian"? Christian means Christ follower, one who believes in the Messiah-hood of Jesus. Some of His followers call themselves Messianic, meaning they believe and follow the Messiah's teachings.
I wasn't sure at first but that was generally excellent!
I was a little thrown by AJ's reference neighbours and strangers - I really do hesistate to suggest she may have missed something here, but surely, in the Parabe of the Good Samaritan, Jesus effectively brought sworn enemies into the definition of neighbours, and, while I wouldn't disagree that people CLAIMING to be Christians have killed opponents throughout history, Jesus NEVER did anything other than say love your enemy. Power and the partisan agendas of those charged with leadership have, as Giles intimated, done so much to corrupt the Church and sabotage its mission - and that should leave little doubt as to who or what was being followed by those responsible - and still actions,.
You are reading a particular view of Jesus into the records. In fact he was no better able to follow his own preaching than any one else. He talked like an angel, but lived like a man.
Do you even know who setup the Catholic Church? It wasn't followers of Christ, but followers of Rabbi Akiva!
Please don't do the "no true Scotsman" bit here. Those people didn't claim to be Christians, they WERE Christians, and it's time Christians like you acknowledge that fully.
@@urbandiscount Read my above comment. It was Jews who set the Catholic Church up to lead the Israelites astray!
Giles came across as a bit unraveled to me. I’m sure he’s a wonderful fellow but here his body language seemed tense and uncomfortable.
No you spoke about post Nicien, you should to go to syriac fathers Ephrem and Ephrahat and others and how they understood the believe in Jesus and they had a lot of discussion dialog with Jewish community on his time
It's all about Jesus as Messiah (or not). C.S. Lewis’ most compelling arguments for the deity of Jesus is that fact that Jesus forgave sins. And He forgave sins, not those sins committed against Him, but those done against others, as though He were the chief one offended.
Lewis writes, “He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin.”
No one needs to convert to become Jew ~ or become a Christian. The human race, of all nations, can be just who they are, and do their best to be a moral-ethic person, but with the Creator in mind.
Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) came not to start a new religion, but to fulfil the Word. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
totally agree.
Still there are those who mean it.
For example, I just read the comment by xe no ...
The OT relied on a Temple built with hands. But is now gone and that covenant relied on the Temple. Jesus replaced the Temple, and returned when the Temple was destroyed.
And we have modern judaism resting on the works of our sages who made sure judaism could endure even without a temple, and it does so until today, even when christians succeeded in many jews.
@@urbandiscount Modern Judaism is not legitimate with God, the Torah was given to Abraham. I have a Ytube video 'Is Abraham the father of Christians, Jews or Muslims? #26 Myths in so-called Christianity' which exposes so-called Christianity, Judaism and Islam as none have their roots in the Torah given to Abraham. The previous videos in the series also have content on the subject.
The only truth is Christ. As much as you want to deny Christ. He is still The First and Last. Son of God. He is greater than Moses. He is The Messiah. King of Kings.
QUESTIONS : does jwish resquest or ask the simple question what took The Massia- Jesus so long to come?
What? 🤔
Similarly, do Christians ask: what’s taking Jesus’ 2nd coming so long?
The Jews of Jesus' day were also not post Temple Ashkenazi Talmudists either.
ah the antisemitism is strong in this one
@@urbandiscount Are you from Wokekanda?
Please Jewish gathered in 80 BC at Jamanya and they considered the Jesus followers as sect
So Jewish did not be open to understood the followers of Jesus
Devine or manmade…..can we recover the atheist Jesus?
Easily.
But only if you make your own Jesus.
The Jewish messiah is not and never was a personal savior. The Jewish messiah was never the son of God. The Jewish messiah was supposed to bring about an age of peace love and understanding.
Giles Frasier sould not be drinking wine and "debating" he sounds like my alcoholic step dad trying to lecture me on religion. Hes all over the place, one. Two Amy-Jill doesn't understand what Jesus was here to do or who Jesus really is. I guess thats why Jews are not followers of Jesus, makes sense now. I think the topic of this video should have been Jews view of Christianity and a guy. 😅
There are so many fallacies and misleading statements about the nature of the Gospel and the teachings of both Christ and the Apostles.
First of all both of these people appear to lack the clear fundamental difference between what Jesus taught, who He claimed to be, and what His Apostles instructed His disciples to carry out after His Ascension.
What we are left with is an obfuscation of the biblical and historical Christ pontificated through the lens of an argument of authority.
You can be highly educated and still ignorant of the Truth. You can use Greek and Hebrew and miss the broadside of a barn with fallacious positions. You can be a pastor and still not understand Christ. That's clear on both people's parts. Smart people, very, very misleading statements.
Find me the Scripture where Christ or the Apostles teach that heretics are to be killed. Find me the Scripture where Christ or the Apostles taught that allying with the world's political systems is part of the Gospel.
This horrible outright lie that Christ and the Apostles didn't quite or correctly handle the Tanakh is beyond stupid. Dr Levine either knows that's a lie or she doesn't know anywhere near as much as she imagined about Christ or His followers. Not to mention the fact that a non Christian's OPINION about Jesus is not authoritative or informative to the believer. At all. Not even a little bit.
Mr Frazer should know as a "pastor" that the framework of Christian doctrine was not "post Nicean" . The teachings of the Apostles predate the Council of Nicean by several hundred years.
Both of these bloated "intellectuals" should also have the decency and the awareness to recognize that you don't judge a religion based on the people who misue and abuse it for their gain. You examine the founder, their life, the manuscript evidence, and the reliability for human flourishing that the source material prescribes.
I could go on but my head hurts and there's not enough ibuprofen in the world to quell how much dumber I am for having subjected myself to this mental dumpster fire.
This was messy, irresponsible, and very poor representation of Christ, His teachings, and the clear commands He left all of us.
Shameful, just shameful.
From listing to the conversation, the answer to the title of the video “Judaism & Christianity: Can we recover the Jewish Jesus?” is why bother because who cares? I did enjoy the conversation; the guest was friendly, but the discussion boiled down to it doesn’t matter if we can or not. Or to put in in 2016 jargon, “You do you boo.” I did like the tone of the conversation. The issue I had is that the title was misleading; I watched this to hear more on that subject. A better title would have been Judaism & Christianity: Can't we all just get along? It is refreshing to see two people with two different religions get along and promote better conversations between the two groups, but that was not what the title repaired me for.
You might enjoy books by the scholar Paula Fredriksen, a historian of early Christianity. She wrote "From Jesus to Christ," but the better book is her followup, "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" -- and subsequent writings (this is according to the author). She felt, after a few years, that "From Jesus to Christ" didn't get it quite right. And although she appears in the series that was named for that book, she has said that she didn't like the way it was done.
One can read the “New” Testament and believe Jesus is the only decent Jew.
All blather....if only HE would do something about this miserable virus......what with his alleged Compassion and all that.
But, that's navel-gazing Theology for you. Its a mild way to pass 90 mins or so
Judaism cannot continue without Christ.