Castle Super Beast Clips: What Does A Creator Owe You?
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- Опубликовано: 12 дек 2024
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Pat always has the ability to be 100% right or 100% wrong on a topic. And Woolie has to debate him each time because it is impossible to tell which time he's right or wrong.
i have never seen their relationship summarized so well XD
I am glad to have contributed an hour of podcast.
Good work. Keep it up
@Lucy Logan a fundraiser? Jesus fucking Christ.
@Lucy Logan oof, I took that completely the wrong way. I thought it was a fundraiser for her, but that's actually a charity.
nice, now go back to dancing Ricardo
Thank you for activating Crazy Talk Requiem on GRRM
"We're all gonna die before berserk ends" conversation #86
I can't wait for #87
And One Piece Too
@@theghostoftheuchiha1999 that's shonen though, there's always new fans for those keeping em alive, Berserk keeps being put on hiatus
@@nathanmarshall745 *looks at Bleach* yeah...
@@ninjaboy4831 at least that has an ending now, right?
19:12 Pat Unknowingly calls out DarkSydePhil for ragequitting A $1250 fan funded playthrough of Persona 3.
Pat knowingly calls out DarkSydePhil for being DarkSydePhil.
"Nuh-uh, dood! I only promised a couple sessions on twitch, not a whole LP! I NEVER! EVER! promised a whole LP, guise!"
He deserved to lose that money for giving anything to Phil
Context? I'm behind on my DSP lore.
@@someguy9181 Exactly what it sounds like. DSP offered donation threshold (I think Patreon) to stream all of Persona 3 FES. He got to Nyx, got fucked by charm on 12th phase and ragequit. I *think* he went back and got it done after a while but I could be wrong, either way he was a fucking clown.
There is also the fact the fallout 3 calls you a coward for having your companion fix everything in the end.
Fallout 3's ending where it calls you a coward because you don't want to get vapourized by radiation so you send in your super mutant friend is very confusing
Alex Bell Bethesda writing is very confusing
@@gamerguy6990 Bethesda writing is very *bad
To be fair getting the 1-time pardon from the NCR or Legion in NV is also fucking stupid.
You can be a mass murdering psychopath and be hated by the NCR, but get that pardon and suddenly everything is fine.
Hell if you complete Lonesome Road and Nuke the NCR/Legionn you can still use the pardon and be forgiven.
Bluemanzee it's confusing how bad it is and the how writer is still hired as the writer over at Bethesda
Remember the slogan.
Expect nothing. Deliver less.
Pat's silent justifiable fury is *inspiring*.
I think the takeaway from this conversation is that transparency and honesty could fix all these problems. The Metroid Prime 4 issue is a great example of this, where Nintendo straight up admits they weren't making progress and had to get Retro Studios to start from scratch in their place
But I thought that transparency was also part of the problem, with George being transparent about not working on the novel and going to cons or whatever Pat was saying.
@@TheAssassin642 In that aspect, I wonder how honest he's being in the amount of effort he's putting
@@hazelaguirre3183 Yeah that's true. More transparency about what George is actually doing with the books would help. He could say something like, guys I'm spending 8 hours a day on the book. Or something. Anything.
Yeah like the berserk issue, where no one knows miura is, less even if he is even working on the manga, the man is so apart from everything and anything that fans have even started conspiracy theory where he is not even drawing the manga anymore because of the radical art shifting, but good luck getting miura to comment anything, he hasn't been seen in public since 2004 and all his fucking interviews these days are just over the goddamn phone
@@7U57HTJRYGHG Is this true? That sounds more like the Ghost in the Shell creator.
G. R. R. Martin just recently commented that if he doesn't show up to the 2020 SummerCon with his 6th book in hand, we can lock him up on an island surrounded by acid, so that he can finish the bloody book.
So hey, Martin at least acknowledges that his pace is a little ridiculous and is trying his best to finish on time i guess.
Also, Pat is super correct because of this.
Nah. Each book, though connected, have multiple completed stories within them.
I get the feeling that if we did that, he'd just laugh and shout, "Gotcha, fuckers! This is how I always wanted to die! Enjoy never reading the last books in the series!" shortly before jumping to a flesh melting death.
elrapido5150 he played us like a god damn fiddle!!!
Gamer Guy best comment ever
Gamer Guy Not really. He played us more like the cheap kazoos we are.
Nothing. They owe you nothing. But if they want continued support from you they should give you something.
Precisely.
They give you the content you consume.
Just get rich then say fuck the fans, I don't owe you anything. You bought my old books, you kept me going, but now? Fuck you, I made my money.
FallenAngelSamurai we can also say fuck you as well and just not buy anything else they're involved in it can go both ways
I believe authors have the right to make whatever artsy fartsy crap they want but be ready for me not consuming it
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the core of Pat's argument here.
It's not that "the creator must be held legally to create this product."
It's "the creator is morally obliged to create this product."
Like, GRRM is free to write and release the book or not, but if he doesn't due to him deciding it's time to cash out and drop out, then that's a morally reprehensible decision, and it should be perceived as such by his previous customers.
You just need to parse Pat's mind goblins
But I feel like it's kind of pointless unless we're talking about laws. That's the kind of conversation I'm interested in. Should someone be legally bound to this? Should they be forced to finish books? Do they have to make it clear that they might not finish?
Are laws based on morality? If not, what are they based on? Social obligations? Is that not also tied to morality? I feel like, if you're going to say something is morally wrong, it should have a place in law. But what kind of punishment? Does it count as false advertising?
@@TheAssassin642
... you think bad relationship ends should be illegal?
Laws should not be so constricting, because it takes a lot of energy to make and change them
@@suddenllybah What is a bad relationship end? And why is it morally wrong?
@@Smevvster I think that's mean, but I wouldn't consider it morally wrong.
But to be honest, I'm a moral nihilist, so I probably shouldn't talk about morality.
@@Smevvster although, if we did consider calling each other swear words to be immoral, and so made it a law, what would the punishment be? A slap on the wrist? A tiny fine?
It's so minor that it's essentially inconsequential.
So then we ask, does not finishing a book justify a punishment that is worth examining in a court of law?
If you consider it to be something akin to false advertisment, then the answer would be yes.
I'm not sure about this whole debate though.
I see what Woolie's saying, like each volume is a product, like they're goods, being incomplete/not having closure doesn't take away everything you consumed up to that point, like if I went to a restaurant and ordered like a three course meal type thing a la cart, but they didn't have the dessert that goes with that complete meal, I'm not going to be like, "Fuck you, give me back my money." when I enjoyed the hell out of the appetizer, the drink, the main course, etc.
*HOWEVER*
I'm totally on board with Pat because George has no excuse, he wasn't just selling individual books, he was selling forward a complete experience, a fucking intellectual property even. If the restaurant told me, "We're sorry, but we just can't make you dessert, our pastry chef's having health complications and is working their way through an existential crisis, we're taking it off the menu", then I'd be like, "Well shit, alright, hope they get better, the rest of the meal was excellent", and pay my bill and be on my way, but if the restaurant kept going, "Yeah, your dessert's coming. Yeah, it's totally coming. Don't worry, it's coming." and I've been sitting in that restaurant waiting on dessert since 11pm and it's now encroaching on 3 in the fucking morning, something's wrong. Meanwhile, I look over at the kitchen and see the chefs are doing everything but preparing my dessert, they're discussing future menu items, changes to the decor, possibilities of expanding into catering services, maybe starting a child branch to the restaurant in another city...and I get it, pastrycraft is an artform and a science, things take time and effort, but we've got an approximate measure on how long it takes to make these things 'cause the chef's done it before, multiple times, with a pretty solid degree of consistency.
If I went to a restaurant and ordered a specific meal, and I didn't get that specific meal, I'm either gonna try to get the specific meal somehow or get a refund. I imagine that's how most people would react.
@@Cr3zant But what if you were getting pieces of the meal one by one and that was the only physical way that particular meal could be delivered and then the pieces stopped coming before the whole thing is done... what do you do about the part of the meal you consumed, and the part you didn't?
@@Copperhell144 If you go to a restaurant and order a meal, you're being promised a specific product. It could be the best damn meal up until the point they refuse to give you the next meal, but you're still not getting what you're promised. It's false advertising and you're entitled to a refund if the chef is at all reputable.
@@Cr3zant But you already ate what you ate, and in this case, you're not entitled an end. The product you're promised is not the whole meal, which is where this whole analogy falls apart - each book only ever "promises" itself, and you pay for that book only, nothing more. GRRM is free to say more is coming, but that's not a promise to which buyers can feel entitled to (which is the direct difference maker with episodic video games where how many chapters you should get is specifically given to you).
I've said this in this comment section before, but you buy books, not stories. People don't get to say the thousands of pages written so far and the effort gone into them is worthless without an ending
@@Copperhell144 Except they 100% can, the worth of the story, the book, and the end product is entirely subjective based upon the consumer. Does that mean the provider of said product is contracted to provide more to make the story worthwhile to the consumer? No, ofc course not. But the consumer is entitled to call the provider out on their shit and say they're a tool because of it.
Woolie continues to roll 1's to catch Pat's point.
The fact that something is long and unfinished is not the problem. JoJolion is long and unfinished, but we're getting monthly installments. Every month we get tangible proof that Araki is still hammering away at it. We have NO proof whatsoever that GRRM is working on the next book, and a whole lot of reasons to believe he's actively NOT working on it.
I mean we have the preview chapter found in the last book. Not much but it's proof that he's started. We also have the fact that the last book took 6 years to come out. Meaning that the increase in complexity makes the gaps longer every time.
I'd say Martin is guilty of severely underestimating his own creativity and process. He should have been realistic with himself. Reminder that AsoiF was supposed to be a simple trilogy.
pat is purposefully being hyperbolic but i agree with the core of his argument that a creator has a responsibility to finish a series. or they should AT LEAST be honest if they no longer intend to finish it. the audience is "owed" at least that much
what does the hyperbolic time chamber have to do with this?
@@Morrison64 you mean the Hypersonic Lion Tamer?
Hyper Sonic? Gotta go fast!
I have a story I've been working on for about 2 years now. It goes online in segments, and I have a readership of about 800 people. There were points where I have been unable to muster the creative energy. During those times, I have to seriously examine myself and say 'do I feel like I can continue this?' And so far, the answer has always been yes. However, if I ever changed my mind on it, I would ABSOLUTELY mention that it may peter out. Despite these periods, I am dedicated, and my readers appreciate that, because they trust me now to always come back and put out content they enjoy.
If I suddenly stopped that story and just kept deflecting, how long should they hang on with me before calling my shit out?
However, yeah, I can see why people can burn out and not want to go on. It really sucks, and that creator should absolutely not be trusted to the same degree again, but it is their prerogative to be a liar and a flake. They should not expect to keep their fans, they should not feel entitled to the same treatment they previously enjoyed. I'm no GRRM, but I absolutely feel his plight to a lesser degree, and I absolutely think he needs to put up or shut up. How long do people wait? And considering how he seems to be involved in so much other crap? Sometimes you have to put your nose to the grindstone and get words on paper. Either do that, even if it sucks, and find your spark again, or announce that you call it quits.
I don't think anyone owes anybody anything, but test your symbiotic relationships at your own peril
“Taxation is Theft”
@@RogueBlood343 woolies been watching a lot of Joe Rogan hasn't he? he's really on this Centrist kick
@@kilroy6806 Centrist he was clearly on the side of Wrong until Pat talked enough sense to drag him to reason
@@cyberninjazero5659 I made another couple comments about this with someone else so I won't go on to much.
I think Woolie would actually be able to beat pat in one of these arguments if he didn't spend 2/3 of his time trying to seem moderate instead of making real points, where as Patt states what he believes and then backs up his reasoning without obsessing over trying to remain in a imagined, subjective middle ground.
They don't owe you a product, but you also don't owe them support.
19:12
The creator owes the consumer what they promise they will deliver. Yes there are situations where they may not physically be able to do so and in that case its understandable but otherwise if you purchase a product with the expectation that there is going to be a followup product that completes that product because I told you it would be, its my job to give that follow up product to you as long as I'm able.
So yeah pat's mostly right here. I wouldnt say that people should get their money back because even if you didnt get the ending you did get the journey. But in a case like GRRM people have every right to shit on him for the rest of eternity.
Quest Completions Rate: 80%
A Song of Ice And Fire
---------------------------------------
√ A Game of Thrones
√ A Clash of Kings
√ A Storm of Swords
√ A Feast for Crows
√ A Dance with Dragons
*The Winds of Winter*
*A Dream of Spring*
---------------------------------------
Unable to finish quest due to Missing file(s)....contacting administrator....
Pat.exe has crashed ///Activating mind goblin protocol due to un-checkable boxes...///
All I'm gonna say is that Robert Jordan DIED and Wheel of Time still got finished.
Important thing to note: without fan outcry,DMC5 and Megaman 11 wouldn't have been a thing.
Reason #631 why woolie is absolutely wrong
Would DMC5 really not have happened though?
@@Copperhell144 yes. Without interest they would've just made DmC2 or nothing.
@@randominternetsurfersurfin7595 After the negative reception of DmC from the fans? Although maybe that counts as outcry. But even then DmC didn't quite sell as good as DMC4 and the whole point of the remake (I think?) was to see if the secret to overwhelming success for the series was the Eastern-Western divide
You're not owed anything, nor is it right to force them to do anything, but you're well within your rights to dislike that and their work ethic. You spent time and probably money, which you gave for their work, its only fair that you get an opinion out of this.
Woolie gets book 38 of Vagabond, opens the book and there is a single printed page with a drawing of Poochie saying he has to go back to his home planet. Thats what we got with GOT end writing.
Oh this won't be a controversial comment section at all.
It won't. Because as loud as Pat is, he's a fuck of a lot more reasonable than a certain other Pat cause he isn't talking in a vaccum.
Honestly I just hope Woolie one day realizes Appeal to Moderation is a logical fallacy.
for the last year-ish every time he gets into these things he creates a geometric myth of a center and positions himself on it, then says everyone who's too far away from his opinion is wrong without explaining why their wrong, simply that they're "too extreme", or "ridiculous"
@@kilroy6806
enlightened
centrism....
@@kilroy6806 It's only a fallacy because Woolie himself refuses to admit he's positioned closer to one side than another. When you're obviously supporting one position but then pretending said position is moderate while absolutely refusing to entertain even the idea of compromise then yeah it'll look untenable.
That doesn't mean it's impossible to negotiate and make concessions between two positions.
@@hassanico9999 >It's only a fallacy because Woolie himself refuses to admit he's positioned closer to one side than another.
it's a ol' time greek fallacy, here's the wikipedia article if no one is familiar:
"...fallacy which asserts that the truth must be found as a compromise between two opposite positions.[2][3] An example of a fallacious use of the argument to moderation would be to regard two opposed arguments-one person saying that the sky is blue, while another claims that the sky is in fact yellow-and conclude that the truth is that the sky is green.[4] While green is the colour created by combining blue and yellow, therefore being a compromise between the two positions-the sky is obviously not green, demonstrating that taking the middle ground of two positions does not always lead to the truth..."
I lost count of the number of times that woolie says "the truth is somewhere in the middle" in this vid. I wondered what he was talking about in another clip when he was annoyed that people were arguing with him even though he was being moderate and I kind of get it now.
I totally get where Pat is coming from because, now that I know Vagabond will never have an ending, I have no interest in reading it whatsoever
As someone who writes stuff, I would absolutely stop writing if I bottomed out my creative well on a particular story because I would rather not mangle what I've already made. But I would be honest about why I stopped. If I had a fanbase, holy shit I would be so reluctant to finish a story poorly and ruin it for them.
I rather have a meh ending than having a halve life 3 situation.
@@sownheard
Yeah but you can't even necessarily guarantee a meh ending. I get the need for closure, but I feel like just throwing a shit ending out is worse than just admitting you can't figure out how to end it
You would love Charles stross. He did exactly that.
Wow I can't believe woolie got to be the wrong one for once
A creator doesn’t owe me anything, and I don’t owe the creator anything. If they want my money, make product that’s worth it
All I’m gonna say is that I laughed way harder than I should’ve when I saw the petition said, “Subvert my expectations and make it happen HBO.” Lmaooooooo
"BuT iT sUbVeRtEd ExPeCtAtIoNs!"
Leos Klein
“OmG jUsT lIkE tHe LaSt JeDi???!???”
There’s plenty room for critique of TLJ but this “subverts expectations” shit is asinine. That implies you were deliberately promised something that was then steered away from - and RUclips theory videos aren’t promises.
@@ballrdd24 I was expecting a good story but instead, I got spat on.
@@ballrdd24 The reason people bring that up constantly is because the director, Rian Johnson, said this as a snide ass-covering response to criticism about his movie.
Subverting expectatations can be great, but it's no substitute for a competent plot or likeable characters, and that's what people are pointing out.
To be fair pretty sure the petitions are more like shouting "there is a market for a remake guys just fix it"
If grrm should ever finish the books, then 10 years later hbo can remake the series into A Song of Ice and Fire, much closer to the books, with all characters and plotlines which got cut.
Woolie's trying to run rhetoric circles around Pat and it's so frustrating that he just won't get to what he's actually saying when he's trying to pull a fast one
they have a bad tendency of trying to be clever around each other but end up looking both foolish because of it.
@@HellecticMojo ehhh more so Woolie at times.
they're talking problems and solutions that are impractical in the real world so whatever
The problem with Woolie is that he’s trying to be a middleman when there’s no one on the other side. It’s like trying to play monkey in the middle with two players. It just doesn’t work at all and makes them look stupid.
@@HellecticMojo they are lowkey trying to do L and light mind games but it doesn't work at all in their case
I don't think the petition is going to change anything and I wouldn't sign it but I do think this is a special case. The showrunners were clearly just rushing through the season so that they could get to work on Star Wars sooner. I don't think creators owe anyone a good product but I do think they owe them the attempt.
The creator of the petition said he never expected the season to be re-written but it was meant to show just how many people were upset and disappointed by their final product.
I hope the petition does carry weight and gets them some flak with disney.
These guys don't deserve to write the new star wars script after this fiasco.
I agree that a creator of a story/music/game owes you nothing, but honestly what is the criteria for half assing it, i charge someone with that when i dont like a story based on that i think in my arrogant part of the brain that i or another could do better, but that is not a quantifiable criteria
@@erikstrasburg6411 Especially after all that Star Wars has been through. In my opinion I'd say that Star Wars is hanging by a thread at this point.
I signed only to show my disappointment
Today I finished playing through Half Life 2 for the first time since I was about 14/15 many years ago. It still holds up today and it still hurts the series was never finished. I completely agree with Pat on this.
i don't see anything inherently wrong with demanding a change to something, especially in the case of something like the sonic trailer where no demand to change it was actually made and the studio went and did it by themselves, the problem arises with the belief that you're actually going to get what you want. making your voice heard and your desires known is fine, but temper your expectations.
I actually spoke to the guy who first made the petition on reddit, and he was quite upfront about the fact that yeah, he had no illusions that HBO was actually going to remake the final season, he just wanted to express his disappointment with the season and give other people the opportunity to do likewise.
A reminder that Stephen King wrote 2 books while he was so coked out of his mind that he doesn't even remember writing them (One of which was Cujo.).
Wtf, thats crazy! I didnt know that
Wasn't Maximum Overdrive the other book he wrote while high on drugs?
@@gabrielperrella That was a different author.
No wait, I'm thinking of another book with a similar name.
Yeah he was high while writing that one probably, he was high when he wrote ALOT of his books, but I'm specifying that these 2 books he was SO coked out he doesn't REMEMBER WRITING THEM.
2nd might be Maximum Overdrive, but I don't know for sure.
@@ShadowWolfRising I'm pretty sure he was coked when writing Maximum Overdrive. I remembe the Nostalgia Critic saying that when he was reviewing the movie.
Wait a minute...
Stephen King has at leasts two stories he has no recollection of writing due to drug use.
One has the word "Overdrive", the other Cujo, which can also be Kujo.
STEPHEN KING JOJO REFERENCED SO HARD HE KING CRIMSONED HIS OWN BOOKS TO FIT THE LORE.
I see these petitions as: "It sucks and so you know, if you remake it, we will watch it ;) "
Petitions are nothing more than a written screee, however this was a very very loud screee.
19:48 I hope you realize exactly what you are claiming here, because what you are saying is that you are obligated to go back and play Devil May Cry 2 .
The LP no one wants but we need
Well he is, and if he doesn't, we should grief him in an online game for exactly 4 days....then the debt will be payed. ....it wasn't worth much.
Honestly I'm surprised they didn't equivocate it to episodic gameplay, where you were buying each episode, and then the dev/publisher said "no episode 5/final"
They did but Woolie swerved hard from it when he realized he screwed himself by bringing it up
CyberNinjaZero Yeah, caught that one. He couldn’t sand bag that line of thought fast enough.
Why didn't they use DSP for this? He's *_beyond_* perfect as the example as he's explicitly rage quit and has outright ignored the polls people pay money to use for games for him to play. Infamously, Persona 3 where he rage quit at the very end and didn't finish it. Or Super Mario Sunshine which he never played even though it won the poll because he complained he already played a Mario game earlier
They probably don't pay attention to his bullshit, although people close to them have made the comparison.
They more than likely don't give a shit about DSP
This is a good conversation, seeing as there's not actually one agreed on precedent for this matter. Artists don't owe people anything, but they should also understand that an attitude like that will hurt future credibility. In the end, both sides should treat each other like people.
More transparency would be nice. I'd feel much better if people warned me that a ship was going down BEFORE we were all underwater. I understand the need for privacy and people's concerns with sharing that kind of stuff, but I am with Pat on it being almost akin to a contractual obligation when somebody is paying you to see a completed product. If you lie to people, whether you meant to or not, you're going to be seen as a liar.
I'm sure there's a million examples where I'm wrong on this though. Mental disorders, deaths in the family, sudden financial emergencies, contract/business problems. The world can be a shitty place that can take you by surprise.
18:10 Yes. This. Pat is absolutely right.
Related note, hey Woolie, how's Kingdom Hearts going?
I dunno, have you asked lying crying manbaby Simpsons McFartgas Gully-gully?
@@whiteblacklight9603
Why would anyone ask Liam about Kingdom Hearts, he already played through them all
@@whiteblacklight9603 Oof. Saltier than a melee player
But he said is over.no more best friends, matt is done.they didn't lie about it.
@@RubyRoks Yes, because "lol buzzword" solves and discredits every argument and dispute.
I think Woolie is fundamentally misunderstanding what Pat is trying to express here. Woolie is wrapped up in what the "law" is and what George's "legal rights" are, and what is happening with the legal rights to the story. That's not what Pat is talking about at all. Pat's not demanding legal action, he's expressing moral outrage.
Woolie is very clearly approaching this conversation as someone who believes love is just chemicals.
I know I'm late to this but Woolie IS the person who says "Love is just Chemicals."
@@jaegerwolf909 That was my point.
The petition isnt actually demanding that they change it, the description says so itself. It's about sending a message.
I read this as "What does a creature owe you?" and thought it was going to be 51 minutes of Pat complaining about Elmo's ungratefulness.
In this video Woolie plays devil's advocate for shady business.
How is it shady business? He writes a 1000 page book, you buy the 1000 page book, business completed. Your expectations are not part of the deal.
I'm with Pat on this one.
As soon as to be continued was printed in each copy on the book, and the books were purchased on mass you owe the people what you started.
You actually don't.
You don't owe people something just because a lot of people want it. You owe them the books they paid for and nothing else.
If GRRM came out today and announced "I hate A Song of Ice and Fire, it's ruining my life and ruining my health" or even just "I don't have the creative spark to keep writing these books. There's too much pressure, I don't know how to end this", you'd have to accept that and you'd be a huge asshole if you didn't.
Once they are out, the stories belong to their audience. The authors do not belong to their audience.
Someone putting out a story doesn't turn a them into your personal cow tit to milk for your story fix.
@@jjj7790 Yes all these riches are "ruining my life and my health" maybe for someone else that works, but in GRRM's case that plane has long since crashed.
@@jjj7790 Responsibility. Nuff said.
I CONSUME PRODUCT AND GET EXCITED FOR NEXT PRODUCT.
WHERE IS NEXT PRODUCT?
I NEED PRODUCT
CONSUMER.EXE HAS STOPPED WORKING
The Jojo Part8 example shows that Woolie does NOT get what Pat is saying
On like a fundamental level
I think that's just his compulsive need to shoehorn JoJo into every conversation.
@@zaneseibert but is that a JoJo reference?
I don't believe a creator is obligated to create based on fan's desire, but I do believe a creator is obligated to respect their fans even just a little and communicate with them the whys and won'ts of a project's development and future. When there is such a HUGE investment from the fans who got you the success you have, there is a level of responsibility there.
An MGS3 playthrough.
You cowards.
Excellent
I think you spelled DMC 2 wrong
That's not how you spell Minecraft Telltale you silly goose
pat did this to himself as he always does XD
@@georgetorres2722 we DESERVE it after Pat's little moment.
Pat is hyperbolic (like most of the time) but I can understand where he's coming from. I would say: a creator owes you nothing BUT there are better and worse ways of dealing with your audience and their expectations.
Well would you agree audiences can offer criticism in better and worse ways?
Like offering solutions to issues vs crying about how they didn’t get what they want.
Of course but it's not always that simple. There may be many factors behind the scenes, things that are not clear to the audience. Transparency may help - on the other hand forcing it would be too much again. Demanding money back is definitely too much.
One thing I will always appreciate about Pat in these sorts of coversations esspecially back with the Mighty no.9 debactle he absolutley counts himself as responsible and I really appreciate that
@@redbee2956 I agree. In the end these guys are creators as well and have to deal with this stuff, albeit to much smaller scale.
You know, as far as the criticism thing goes... I definitely think criticism of things in general is too harsh (or harsh sounding at least). And I say this as person who really really likes criticism.
It's times like this in thankful for an artist as open and forthcoming as Brandon Sanderson
Kami Kojima And that’s the difference isn’t it? Relatively speaking Sanderson sold the film rights to his series way earlier than Martin, but the reason it doesn’t seem as scummy is because I’m half convinced that if Brandon died he’d possess a ouija board and literally ghost wright the fucking series.
But Woolie, what if you criticize something and the creators tell you to deal with it?
Knee Of Justice Dude I actually love that!
Might I direct you to "What? Don't you people have phones?!" with an addendum of "If you don't want to be constantly online, there's a console for that, it's called the Xbox 360"
Then fuck them I'm turning to the alternative
@@MegaTyler93 I am sure you preordered an Xbone and are waiting with baited breath for the Diablo mobile game.
Du de No because I’m not an entitled piece of garbage.
19:11 DSP 100% received donations to do an LP and decided to quit two eps later because "eh"
I thought it was because he couldn’t beat Nyx and was like “nuthin I could do dood!” before farting and burping away
I teach programming and charge monthly instead of per project, if I gave up in the middle of a project leaving people hanging with half-made shit I wouldn't be able to sleep properly and they are not even a year long thing. Imagine if it was two decades big...
Good thing book readers are also charged on a "monthly basis" as they pay for each book in the series separately at the point of publishing, not the entire series before parts have even been written.
4 years later, and it's so funny that George still hasn't finished his 6th book, while Araki has already finished Jojolion is already started Jojo Part 9.
Pat activates 『Crazy Talk Requiem』
And it is the Woolie who is wrong instead
Welcome to the world of being a pro wrestling fan for the past 10 years.
Creators don’t owe a damn thing and that is a reciprocal relationship. If the aesthetics of a series change, the consumer is not obligated to continue support. Just like how the consumer can make suggestions, and the creator can tell them to fuck off. It’s a vicious cycle that can tip off at anytime, especially now with people’s fragile egos.
R.I.P Miura
They owe you just one thing, not to shit where they eat. It's important to get people to agree to disagree at the very least and it is vital for brand survivability or a career survivability. It's becoming a disturbing trend to be antagonistic with the money instead of trying to calm down the money so the money can be reasoned reason with
If they can't finish their story anymore,do they know the basic sequence of events that it would follow? is there a synopsis of some kind that would be the skeleton of the finished product? Put that out there.That's what they did when FFXV died,with that light novel that gave people the new ending,and from what i heard,it was even a decent ending.
Woolie: Well you see the process of making books and games is exactly like making music :^)
Yeah no
Yeah yes
Counter point. Remember the tv show ending to Evangelion? It sucked and people complained. In response the first movie came out and it was amazing.
Okay I need to ask a question about Evangelion, do I watch the entire show and then the movie? A certain point of the show and then the movie? Or just the movie?
@@Brainwave101 The show is reaaaaaallllyyyy great. (Except the last episode.) Watch it all to see why most folks were dissapointed at the finish line. Then watch the "End of Evangelion" movie. As for the rest of the moviesthat came after that, I've got no opinion. I never saw them.
@@iria20 Alright I'll take your advice, thanks dude.
@@Brainwave101 did you watch them?
@@grinkobaba9226 Just finished the show yesterday, planning on watching End Of with two of my buddies tonight.
Be curious to see Woolie's defense of Destiny which seems to be shuttering operations without ever having delivered on all the story DLC that was promised from launch...
I absolutely adore the tone of Pat’s “This is absurd” at 19:57.
You owe me my internet dollars for not finishing sonic unleashed eventhough you promised
Their livelihood
Dear Wet and Pully,
They don't owe anything in regards to content but they do owe an answer.
Are you going to finish X or not, simple as that.
Either admit it's never going to be done or vice versa and give the fans closure.
What about people promising never to do something and then turning to it when they are backed into a corner? A la “Mattsura’s Wrath”
Love putting on these interesting extended discussions while going through side content/missions in my games.
If they want my money again they better give me something, otherwise I’m not spending any money with their name on it, IE Star Wars.
Woolie you lost.
Hang RR Molten.
Making story cause you want to is fine.
Saying you will do more, but not even touching it is close to criminal.
Take a break sure but do it.
How about this: Hasbro releases 4/5 parts of a combiner, marketing them as part of a combiner the whole time, but quits before the last one.
They're functional transformers on their own. Is that okay?
Also Colin Moriarity pretty much said that he regrets doing the “Gamer entitlement” crap during the ME3 debacle.
The funny part is that a lot and the vast vocal majority of gamers are unironically entitled and or pieces of shit
@@kmoney890 Nah.
@@kmoney890 uhhhhh, no? you clearly don't understand the concept of a vocal minority.
@@kmoney890 Hi EA
See just like that. Why would I ever think an uneducated horde of assholes clamoring for THING while also blatantly ignoring and not giving a shit about how and who made THING and the bullshit they were forced to endure to make THING are entitled and or assholes? Its unfathomable
Not sure why Woolie "Justice Porn" Madden has a problem with Pat's argument
I'm just gonna sidestep the whole conversation about entitlement to extol the virtues of stand alone stories. A single season anime that wastes no time and ends strongly is way more enjoyable to me than ongoing shounen series #429 because 1) it doesn't outstay it's welcome and 2) it's had a reasonble ending, and is not at risk of being unfinished. I try as much as I can to avoid getting invested in serious stories that are serialized past a trilogy, unless it's already ended, because boy I would rather see a show end after 4-8 hours of watching and leave with a feeling of satisfaction, to see it either decline or fizzle the fuck out.
Most of my friends don't agree with me on this but that's why I can't deal with things like Marvel comics or longform TV. Tight stories, kids. Learn to make self-contained works.
Hi can you spare a moment to talk about our lord and savior Fairy Tail? It's ongoing for like 17 years of serialization and delivered on everything it ever promised and isn't even finished yet. Pretty much the greatest series ever. I would put it just ahead of berserk. thank you for listening
@@ExtraVictory That's certainly an opinion.
@@nackskott12 indeed
Then theres based One Piece.
Pat is 100% in the right here.
this all depends on the belief you think you matter as a consumer
the consumer does matter though, we're the ones paying the creator's salary.
Artistically it doesn't.
Commercially it does.
@@Yal_Rathol Only until the creator gets rich. Then the consumer doesn't matter anymore.
@@TheAssassin642 a fair point. which is where pat's "they should give the money back" hyperbole comes in.
@@Yal_Rathol I'm still not sure about this whole debate to be honest. I think if it was made law, that could be a fair punishment potentially.
George R.R. Martin the Jay-Z of Fantasy Literature.
I really agreed with Pat and I had no idea why until he brought up Half Life which still hurts me.
When they mentioned someone writing a story in their own head and doing it all in one go, I'm surprised they didn't mention I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream
Time stamp: 39:30
18:20 So I was following Pat's logic until about this point, and imo this is where his argument falls apart a little. Pat uses the logic for crowdfunding something, where's the sale of a book series doesn't follow this logic. You are only paying for a single book. You're not guaranteeing the next instalment in a series. People burn out. People die. They didn't sign a contract with you. If you brought in to the idea of a complete series you're a fool. Are you going to sue a Gynax because the final episode of Panty and Stocking said to be continued? Of course not, you don't have a case. You can be angry, but you're not owed anything.
the petition is good just to showcase the outrage of the incompetence of the writters, i hope they get boycotted so they wont ruin starwars as well, so many ppl worked so hard on that show and those shitstains just rushed thru it so dissapointing.
Pat is right, a rare occasion
No way man. What you are buying is what is in your hands at the checkout. The creator doesn't owe you anything beyond what you paid for. That being said call the creator an asshole all you would like but they don't owe you jack shit.
You give us something, we buy it and you promise us a sequel or in this case more to the unfinished story. Then you twiddle your thumbs and play in your house of gold we gave you and then we never see a continuation. Sure you don't owe us, you don't need to finish the thing but saying you'll do something and never doing it is pretty shitty.
I don't see how anyone can defend this.....if you get rich and keep telling your audience I'm going to finish the story but you're clearly procrastinating and playing with your millions of dollars people gave you instead of working then you're a pretty shitty human being. I'm seeing a lot of boot lickers in the comment section with no self respect.
Who the fuck hurt you to assume that Martin is just doing coke in a gold mansion? Reminder that his books have taken expodentially longer to come out each time. Additionally, he just wrote a prequel book. Now I want it to come out, yes. But I'm also an artist and understand that writing is fucking difficult.
@@blitzkriegdragon013 Writing is far less difficult when you dont have to worry about bills, food, or pretty much anything like George doesn't. I'm a writer as well; there's no justification for taking longer than 10 years to write a single book, especially when it's your full time career with every support at your disposal.
And him writing a prequel and other books only worsens his situation. Why are you writing prequels when the MAIN SERIES isn't even done yet? Basic priorities, Basic time management, common sense.
@@MRJTD99 I’m a writer too. I agree that it’s dumb, but I’ve also been at points where I’ve bitten more than I can chew. Quite honestly, I’ve never written a project as huge as he has so god knows the charts of things to keep track of.
I’m not saying feel sorry or not be upset. Just keep in mind he still does quite a bit. He’s writing and producing a lot.
I’m not sure how I feel on this. First off, I didn’t sign the petition, but I fully understand it from the angle of, numerous customers are dissatisfied with a product.
A petition has no power to force HBO to do anything, all it does is allow people to make their opinions heard to an otherwise too powerful corporate entity. HBO can still look at that and go “screw off, we’re not doing that” so I don’t see the harm in a petition.
Pat is being such a big poopy diaper baby on this matter lmao.
I feel your pain Pat..and Woolie because Black Lagoon for me is like Vagabond for you..I’ve been waiting on a conclusion to that story for almost a decade now..but I can’t force the mangaka to finish the story..the least I can do is wait even if that wait will take. A whole other decade..
When you buy a Product that isn't complete, you are voluntarily agreeing to a situation where this thing you may get invested in, isn't guaranteed to finish for millions of potential reasons. That's on you buckaroo.
I understand people get frustrated, but creative pursuits aren't as simple as LP'ing a bunch of games. Talent doesn't necessarily work like that. The idea that he can just finish the books but is just choosing not to is what makes people feel so entitled. But maybe he's just trying to take his time to figure the shit out and make sure the shit is good. Season 8 of the show is a prime example of what happens when you just make the writers rush to the finish line. If he says he's going to finish them, people need to chill the fuck out and let him finish them at his own pace.
You telling them that you want it changed will do little, however stopping your support as well as telling others how bad this shit is if it legitimately is so, it’s their choice whether they want to do something or actually change it. You put the ball in their court, it’s their decision as to whether this is how they want to be remembered, where people 5-10 years down the line go “Oh yeah I remember that, it wasn’t that good honestly.”
39:19
I have no mouth and I must scream was written in an afternoon with only one draft which got published and became a legendary shirt story.
that story is incredibly short though, especially compared to ASOIAF books
It depends if they want money.
If yes, they should listen to their fans.
If no, then fuck the fans, let your vision rein supreme.
There is no shame in wanting money/not wanting money, but I think this is a key thing that matters a LOT especially in games that need ongoing user spending to stay alive.
Matt doesn't owe me good content, but I'm not obligated to watch his stuff anymore
The problem these days is that artists believe the consumer owes them consuming their product
Genuine question: What did Matt do now? I haven't watched any real video of his, especially since the SBFP breakup
Nothing, it's just a snarky dig at Matts channel.
@@ReneeGalena I too want to know if he did something recently
@@ReneeGalena That's just the thing. His channel is boring and uninspired. And he goes off on nonsense tangents and the occasional unnecessary political rant. Not to mention his awful RE 2 take on Twitter. He's fallen from grace.
I think this situation is rather blunt. He owes us the books or at the very least honesty about the situation. If this was a case of selling one book at a time, then the “I dropped out of it” or the “maybe some day” might be fine, but he sold them as “book 1 of 5-7” which comes with the inherent agreement and promise that this is simply a chunk of a single story with a defined end. It sells itself on the idea that there WILL be an end and that it WILL reach it. Honestly I think the biggest mistake he made was doing this because of his (amazing but chaotic) writing style, and honestly I’ve only seen authors who have already started working on the ass end of the series give promises like that, as they don’t need to worry about not reaching it as they’re already there.
Woolies doesn't think there should be tangible consequences for lying...who could have seen that coming?