SNAP OVERSTEER - how bad is it REALLY and how to RECOVER - a practical guide
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2019
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Snap oversteer. It's probably one of the first thing that comes to mind for many when they think Toyota MR2 or even any mid-engined car (corvette c8, ferrari, lotus, etc.). But how bad is it really? Are you gonna die after two seconds like the memes want you to think?
Well, today we're going to test it out in the real world, on a big empty parking lot to see just how bad is the snap oversteer in an mr2, when, why and how it happens and what can you do to fix it and recover from it.
Before that we are going to talk a bit about the theory behind snap oversteer. So why does snap oversteer even happen? It happens because of something called weight transfer. Mid-engined cars are great at straight line acceleration and exiting corners fast because weight is transfered towards the rear of the car in those situation. The engine and transmission are the single largest fixed point of concentrated weight in a car, and in a mid-engined car they are located in the middle of the car. When a mid-engined car such as the Toyota mr2 accelerates the weight distribution towards the rear helps provide additional traction to the rear driven wheels. The engine's weight further amplifies that effect. However, when an inexperienced driver enters a corner too fast in a mid-engined car and suddenly releases the throttle in an attempt to decelerate, snap oversteer happens. It is also called lift off oversteer because it occurs in a sudden throttle lift off scenario. As a mid-engined car decelerates weight is transferred away from the rear wheels, they loose traction and the rear of the car wants to break loose. As it does so it "snaps" and the car makes a sudden uncontrolled full spin. This happens because the mass is concentrated in the middle in a mid-engined car. A good analogy here is a hammer with the hammer head in the middle of the shaft, it will be much more prone to spinning than a hammer with the head at either of its ends.
So how to fix it and recover from snap oversteer? The first part of the equation is the mechanical condition of a mid-engined car. Is the suspension old, in poor condition and unserviced? Are the tires worn out? Has an alignment been done? These can greatly contribute to increased chances for snap oversteer. The other part of the equation is driver experience. As you can see in the video it is fairly easy to recover from snap oversteer in a mechanically sound car if the driver has a bit of experience and does not panic or freeze up. You recover from snap oversteer like you would from any kind of oversteer, and that is by steering in the other direction. Do not attempt to brake to stop the oversteer. It is also very important not to over-correct. If speeds aren't excessive you can fix snap oversteer by simply letting go of the throttle and the car will restore direction of travel on its own. The key is not to panic or freeze up and try to forcefully hold the steering wheel in place. It is of course important to react quickly because the time frame is short, if you react too late you will likely be unable to continue smoothly in the desired direction of travel, but you can still prevent the car from spinning around completely and minimize the chances of accident and/or injury.
So to sum it up. Make sure your mid engined car is in a sound mechanical condition, have good tires and don't panic. The best way to prevent snap oversteer is to experience it in a safe environment. Take your mid-engined car and experiment on a large empty space (parking lot etc.) Try to intentionally create snap oversteer by releasing throttle during cornering. This will prepare you for it and after a bit of practice it will become second nature for you to react on time and recover from snap oversteer. Once you master that you can even try drifting your toyota mr2, it can do that too. Now stop reading this and go watch the damn video :)
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I freaking love the nature around the parking lot!
HOW COOL!! The location of the Sarajevo olympics!! I've been dying to know where you lived. On one hand, I was, he speaks spanish, but he doesn't live in spain, right !? And thought you were in a former "eastern bloc" country. And it sounds like you studied engineering since pre-school! For a while I thought maybe croatian? Of COURSE, as a US citizen, I feel like shit for what stupid clinton did (bombing Belgrade). We're all pretty stupid as to why the world resents us often ... and I'm learning more and more about how angry our CIA makes nations (right now we're fucking with Ukraine after throwing a coup in 2014, IMO ... and using Ukrainian Slavs to kill Russian Slavs for reasons that are not good).
But, now I know: You're in Bosnia & Herzegovina! VERY VERY COOL.
i almost destroyed my brother's e36.
he was fucking around wit his tires and i didnt know about but my a4 broke down that day so i needed his car. we have a special turn when you take the sliplane off the highway it dips down goes underneath the highway and comes back up to the same level.
it was damp that day with a BMW work in progress and 3 different tires on 4 wheels. suddenly the car snapped, i spun once and hit the barrier with my back corner, so lucky nothing more happened to the car. but im a little experienced, if i had countered the snap i would have hit the barrier sideways and way harder.
i know e36 wasnt mid engined but jey i almost destroyed an Iconic Car.
*Weird story* about that ski jump venue-when the Bosnian Serb Army of Republika Srpska were massacring civilians during the siege of Sarajevo, that idyllic venue became a major battleground and the VRS used the medals podium to perform executions.
Everyone knows that if you pop up the headlights just after you loose it, it will restore the weight balance and you can regain control......that's why the best RWD cars have pop up headlights.
Fact!
Everybody know that popping headlights restore the car to grip mode, and popping eurobeats will set the car into perfect drift mode.
They give me extra drag when I dip into those 30 mile power right hand turns I be taking, scaring soccer moms LMAO. Jk. ... Sorta.
I wondered why the airbrakes on my Firebird had lights in them...
That one woke up the car!
Pop hop headlight magic!!!
My favorite part was when the tripod snap oversteered.
Great recovery too. This guy has skill.
Me too
Never release the tripod fully in panic mode
Lmaooo same
Same
The "snap oversteer" everyone is talking about that is so dangerous isnt the initial oversteer when turning, but instead the SNAP BACK to oversteering in the opposite direction of the drift after you have already countersteered.
THANK YOU! I only saw "Snap Oversteer" once in this video, and he didn't even register it for what it was. Listen up, folks. This video is showcasing oversteer. Snap oversteer is what he did starting at 8:29 and the run immediately after when he popped the headlights up. (As an aside, apart from terminology and the underlying assumptions about "Snap", this is an informative video on oversteer in general and it was entertaining for what it was. ... I would love to see you follow it up with like a Tosh.0 web redemption thing, if you know what I mean!)
@@jimbillyjenkims THIS!!!! I got annoyed watching it like......no dude is wrong haha
Told this to a friend and he used the knowledge to avoid a crash in an old beetle. The do NOT teach this stuff in beginners driving school.
Snap overseer can be used to keep front wheel drive cars from plowing off the outside of a snow covered corner. Just turn in, loose the front, get off the power and the back end comes around then add power and drive out of the corner.
Good advice. Thanks .
@@gregwarner3753 pretty much the scandinavian flick.
@False Flag watch out, the owner of the channel will claim he is an astronaut with 12 space missions......
What this has to do with experience about pushing the limits of cars us what I'm trying to figure out.... look at the conversation I had with him under my comment lol
What I learned from this clip: The best way to stop snap oversteer, is to open the pop-up headlights
Airbrakes hahahaha
Here's a few more secret herbs and spices. If the MR2 is neutrally cornering at the limit, then applying throttle reduces the grip of the rear tyres leading to oversteer. And hard engine braking does the same thing. So a harsh lift off in 2nd gear diminishes rear wheel grip for two reasons (weight transfer & torque) not one. That idea gets 100x worse by trying to fix the initial lift oversteer with a panic brake. Test how the oversteer and driver responses play out by adding a circle of cones to your carpark. Drive faster until you run out of neutral road holding. If your attentive the oversteer will be small and you can correct by steering without any throttle change on a wider line. But If you are too fast, the breakaway will be sudden and the oversteer bigger. In this case, you are not really countering the slide because it is mid way before your reaction time kicks in. You may stop it going terminal by winding on a lot of opposite lock quickly. And when it grips again, quickly winding off the same amount of opposite lock. And maybe doing that a 3rd time until it settles. The problem here is it needs a much wider line. The amount of road space this takes can be longer than where the kerb or trees are. Then you will brake heavily, which as pointed above has consequences. None of this is fun, its disaster aversion. A front Mid engined alternative (MX5) behaves differently. It has a slower paced and more linear grip limit response because the polar moment of inertia is higher.
Mid engined cars have this behavior as a natural characteristic. The OEM setup was worse than the Eibach and Koni that most of us now have. But you can go "double worse" by fitting springs that allow bottoming out or tyre lift to happen on a mid corner bump. It's the reason why the USA market deleted the rear roll bar and why everyone gets a heavily front biased brake distribution. Its 1-3 generations ahead of the time where these physical limits can be mitigated with ABS, ESC, Torque vectoring or active slip angle control.
Now the human side. Tell someone "its a sports car" and the presumptions may be way off. Our MR2's have too much grip and not enough torque to be natural at drifting, powerslides, burnouts or 1/4 mile times. And the handling description of "better" is misleading. Some of how it behaves is way better than average, and some of it can be borderline uncontrollable. Its grip levels are high and in spirited driving you will be neutral up to modernish (.85-1) G's. But be mindful that an unexpected mid corner bump, patch of wet leaves, standing water or lapse of concentration can creates a situation with no viable way out.
Drive it too far from its limits, have the wrong expectations, skill set, or if your seating position is too far back to be effective with the wheel (Ha!) and it will bite you. Stay just on its limits and you will have a ball. Drive it much less than that and you will be underwhelmed. It's got more possibilities than Goldilocks which is why I like it.
That's a whole Lotta important information that nobody in the comments is going to read 😂 I'm sorry
*Thanks, dude it really helped me understand better =)*
so Miata is the answer, right?
@@ayeapprove miata is always the answer.
Jokes aside (I actually want a miata, too) I've been wanting an mr-2 for a while now, but even in the vidya games I'm bad at dealing with oversteer, so learning how to avoid it would be great.
Thanks for all that info! Might end up saving my life, lol.
@@kujiko88 Miata is a good way to learn, not alot of power but good balance
8:50 Your MR2 couldn't believe that you just prevented a snap oversteer that much, that it made it's lights pop up.
So lazy, she only took a quick look :P
Your explanations are clear and precise, your English is better than 99.9% of native English speakers, and your MR2 is one sweet car. Congrats and thanks!
"And the car..."
*camera falls down*
Yeah, does that 😂😂😂
When I saw the index picture I had a small hearth attack.
LOL I expected that people will think this, don't worry. It's just some random sw20 from Google images :)
Same feeling!😥
Dude I had the same reaction. Thought you got your car mangled after all that effort
That's my mate Lee's car. Nothing to do with snap oversteer. Walked away OK.
Oh my god, you were attacked by a fireplace?! Are you okay?
Another great way to practice correcting for oversteer (or understeer) is to go to an empty parking lot with a fresh coat of snow. The underlying principles and handling are identical to dry; snow just slows it all down, so it's like practicing in slow-motion at first, with lots more time to feel exactly what's happening and learn how the corrections work.
Having experience with your car and Knowing how your own car personally feels is everything. If I hadn't had my legacy for as long as I had knowing the ins and outs of it I'd have been bitten by trees recently.
Facts recently brought an s2000 after years of miata mx5s, i had my mx5 control perfect but never mind the power difference the chassis behave very different, even from my old 1990 mx5s the two drove differently becouse of different setups
Great video. The other problem is, 90% of cars on the road now are FWD. And most of the population has little or no experience with RWD. Operating one is kind of a loss skill like the manual. In the past, a car swapping ends if you lost control of it was an accepted fact of life. People generally drove to prevent it. Most cars now are setup with some understeer dailed in, its safer and easier to control. For legal reasons too.
I agree, however RWD are widely different when it comes to handling. I have a classic mini so FWD with a midly tuned engine, around 90bhp for 650kgs so pretty zippy. It has, strangely, an oversteer tendency, albeit very slowly, due to the fact that it becomes a tripod at the limit. On the other hand, my swapped E30 with around 160bhp is stuck to the road and making it oversteer is only possible if you force it to in order to drift. The car is very light, and all the weight is on the front axle.
FWD cars are brilliantly designed for corners because 60-65% of the weight is over the drivetrain as well as the turning tires, but on top of that the front weight bias significantly reduces weight transfer to the rear. With all these factors and the fact there's no power coming from the rear, FWD cars are easily the most forgiving vehicles and might even be better than RWD around many types of corners.
@@elliswilliams1050 If the goal is to prevent oversteer in road driving scenarios than yes, they are great for that. If the goal is to maximize the traction available to the driven wheels under less than ideal road/weather conditions, FWD excels again, because of ease of control. But cornering at speed under performance/track driving, AWD and RWD will always be better. If FWD was superior, then F1 would be using it by now. Also Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and McLaren would build front wheel drive models. They don't.
FWDs understeer, which is easier to control/correct. Its safer. But understeer does not equal better cornering. There are front drive cars that corner well, but their rear and AWD equivalents always corner better.
Don't the manufacturer's say fwd is cheeper to produce. This is a key factor it's allways the money.
@@kevinjones3900 Fwd components are smaller and more efficient. The differential sits inside the transmission so there is no need for a several foot long driveshaft and a rear end.
I have driven and still drive a 1993 MR2. Never noticed this problem and I have driven from 20 to 105 mph. Now I restrict myself to 75 mph top speed. Love this car. Since I have owned this car my wife has gone through one Chevrolet Minivan and three Lexus cars! Have no complaints except it doesn’t perform well in snow but I live in Florida now so that doesn’t matter here!
Do you think snap oversteer would be a problem during casual driving with an older model mr2, or only when going faster than normal?
@@quartz6239 I have a mk1 89 mr2 I use for casual everyday driving, I have never had an issue with snap oversteer
One question, how did you avoid the 0-19mph range?
@@tosehoed123 let it roll down a hill and if you jump through the window at exactly 18 mph, you can start the car at 20 mph. Obviously you need very good timing for this to work or you may face a few problems
I have to point out a couple things here:
1) It's one thing to be able to handle the recovery in a large empty parking lot on a warm dry day, it's quite another to deal with it when it's cold, and wet, on a road weaving through the forest, and you have traffic around, etc. When people encounter this issue, it's not under ideal conditions with all the room in the world, to move however you want, to try to deal with the issue. It happens in VERY not idea conditions, which is what lead to the situation to start with.
2) You are performing all of this with an AW11, and it's the SW20 that is REALLY known for this (especially the early years).
best video I have seen about this topic
Thank you so much, this is exactly what I was looking for and the flawless grammar was a satisfying bonus. I suppose, unlike in America. they actually teach English in Sarajevo!
Just wana say thank you so much for taking the time to record this beautiful relaxing and informative video...i dont even own a car but this video was much appreciated thank you...From Caribbean
I remember watching this last year in financial troubles thinking hmm I wish I could buy an mr2 ... year later i have a barn find mr2 and slowly rebuilding it bottom up, refurbishing brakes welding sills, then some nokian/michelin tyres) then check the suspension alignment and then I want to re learn to drive by learning mid engine Car. This video gave me confidence and I Can't wait to drive my sw20
One important thing to know when driving is you almost always apply steering change the same time you apply throttle or braking. Steady steering but changing throttle or braking will change the handling balance, either adding understeer or adding oversteer. To retain consistent handling balance, you learn to combine steering changes with throttle or brake changes. They generally adjust together. Every car is different, so the same amount of input change will not translate from one car to the next. You have to learn what inputs are required for each vehicle based on how they behave. This is a learning process. It takes effort to learn. It takes a safe place to learn. A good way to do this is to get into hobbyist motorsports, things like autocross or rallycross. It's cheap, and you get to experiment with the car, experiment with inputs, and learn the right combination of inputs to make the car handle smoothly.
One other thing to note is you also need to adjust the pace of change of your inputs. A fast stab of the throttle or brake or a fast yank of the steering wheel creates vastly different results in the car than slow and smooth input changes. Inexperienced drivers tend to be ham-fisted and just manhandle inputs like it's a wrestling match. More experienced drivers learn car control is far more deliberate and delicate. For example, I've raced autocross and rallycross for over a decade. In my younger years I even toyed with learning drifting techniques. With gained experience, I've transitioned to a driving style that is immensely more delicate and smooth in motion. Even when racing, I may steer with the tips of my fingers, delicately, or only move the wheel a couple degrees to shift the car's path, very tiny movements. Hard, fast movements are generally only necessary for rapid change, say sharp corners, a hard braking zone after a straight, slalom, a tight 180 turn, etc. You might be fighting inertia, the shear mass of the car and the direction it's facing now versus where you want to face, and you want to do it in a very short distance and in as short of time as physically possible. Large inputs may be necessary. However, most driving is actually remarkably delicate, even when the car's sliding completely sideways. The corrections and control of the path the car's taking remain generally quite minor and deliberate. The deliberate nature is a byproduct of experience, both with driving and of the vehicle. You do have to learn the vehicle to know how it functions, how it's balanced, and how it physically behaves when inputs are applied.
I do want to clarify a concept. Oversteer and snap oversteer is largely the same thing, although the context of choice that some people want to state snap oversteer might be at a different stage of the process. Cars can be tuned to naturally understeer or oversteer. They can be tuned to do so under specific conditions. For example, I can tune a vehicle to oversteer specifically on throttle let-off but understeer when applying braking. This is a choice in design. OEMs will try to make a car understeer in all cases, although some OEMs push this boundary. For example, a BRZ is quite near neutral at the limit. Most people think they oversteer, but that's mostly a byproduct of driver input rather than setup. The car will understeer slightly and through the ABS stability control system forcefully if you are actually smooth with inputs. The snap oversteer debate is more so around the choice that an OEM makes a car understeer moderately. The bigger distance between the understeer and the neutral point generally forces a driver to apply harsher inputs to attempt to get closer to that neutral point. You work harder and harder towards maximizing the car's grip around a corner that you get incredibly aggressive with throttle, braking, and steering inputs, brazenly so. Then you reach over and find that oversteer. Ok, great! But, oh no! I don't want oversteer. Now you correct, but the distance between the natural understeer and that neutral to oversteer boundary is so great, it's a dramatic change in handling. You have a harsh transition. Plus you've become heavy-handed with inputs, so you overcorrect (typically), and swing the other way. You've gotten so used to fighting the car to try and get rid of so much understeer that you and the car end up wildly out of shape. If you don't really know what's going on or how to handle it, you can end up off the road, spinning around in circles, or wherever.
I'll give two examples of oversteer. One is the Ford Mustang GT (last gen version), a powerful but wollowy mess of a car (too soft of suspension and damping). The other is a Dodge Viper (3rd gen version), a well sorted car but geared for understeer. The owner of the Mustang was learning his car at an autocross event. There was a particular S bend after a straight that required careful steering inputs not to upset the car. The owner of the car promptly spun out and ended up backwards on the course. He over applied steering inputs and didn't manage the movements of the chassis and soft suspension. I drive the car, and it understeers a little but can readily oversteer on-throttle just about anywhere. On the same S bend, I am FAR more smooth and deliberate with steering, particularly delicate with amount and pace as to not throw the back end of the car around as it leans left and right around this S bend. (Look up "feint" in drifting for an idea of why the owner spun and I didn't). The Mustang was a stupidly fun car to drive. A good driver could go between understeer and oversteer on demand, but it was super soft so you could unintentionally throw the chassis around if you were too heavy with the inputs. The second car is the Viper. Just the name has a history, but compared to the Mustang, it's actually a pretty boring car. It's fast, as fast as a R35 GTR, Camero ZL1, etc. very similar ballpark for actual speed around an autocross course due to good power and very high grip. The problem is it understeers almost always. It has really high grip and car carry speed. The tires don't particularly transition smoothly between grip and slip, so any slip is sudden. It's a game of pushing against that understeer harder and harder, and the high grip offers high confidence. You stab the gas harder, stab the brake harder, yank on the wheel harder, harder and harder, faster and faster. Then, you're sideways in the blink of an eye. The big, wide tires don't really indicate the limit super well, and the stiff car doesn't show much movement to feel weight transfer like the soft mustang. You are just all of a sudden sideways 30 degrees. If you know what you're doing, great!. If you don't, well, you'll correct and very, very quickly be facing the opposite way due to the distance in handling character between overseer and its natural understeer state. The movement is harsh and abrupt, and unless you know what to do, you're likely putting in the wrong input at the wrong time. You spin out, end up off the road, or whatever. Vipers have a history of this characteristic. It's partially a byproduct of Dodge's intent to have understeer, the owners high confidence in the grip and capability of the car, and the owner's desire to fight that understeer when driving hard. The owner years bad driving behavior, and it eventually bites them. Good driving is working with the car and then tuning the suspension or other components to make the car drive exactly the way you want. Bad driving is not really understanding the car and wrestling against the car trying to make it do things it's not really geared to do.
Good skill can make a bad car fast, but it's a LOT of work, a LOT of driving inputs and corrections all the time, and good understanding of the car. It takes work, and it's fatiguing. You can drive the same car lighter and have a very easy time, but it will have limits you run into that you kind of accept and go easy with. I'm a fan of tuning the car just right so you can really lean on it hard, and it behaves exactly as you'd like everywhere you like. This too takes a lot of understanding, work, and some trial and error in setups. Every tweak changes the car and in turn changes the kind of driving inputs you need to apply in various situations. A very well tuned car will be very fast and very easy to drive at the limit. There are not many like this. Of more modern cars, ones like the FRS/BRZ/FT86 are some of the closest. I haven't driven the new ND Miata hard yet, so I'm not sure about that one. I assume it's similar. These cars that are tuned very near neutral are easier to drive hard. They transition between understeer and oversteer much more smoothly. The harshness between the change isn't there because the gap between one or the other is so very small. You get the joy of working at the limit, the edge between understeer and oversteer with minimal inputs, minimal corrections, and just delicate movements. It's enjoyable. To get a car tuned that way just takes time and work. The tuning process can introduce a lot of weird driving characteristics, including a sensitivity to oversteer and snap oversteer. In generally, this is exacerbated by larger rear sway bars and soft rear springs and damping. A stiffer rear spring and damping will lean you towards oversteer, but the high damping and stiffer setup will mean more control. However, a sway bar is just an undamped spring, a rubber band in a sense, specifically for the side to side motion. It's also one of the first mods most people do with cars, toss in a big rear sway bar to dial out some of that understeer.
I read it
TLDR
This is a short but well written overview and i 100% agree. At the limit one accels or brakes with the steering wheel, while these two doing the steer. To the " weird driving" topic i have a video with a little to much sway bar at the rear. ruclips.net/video/VF8u3NIxuTA/видео.html
@@infosneakr me too
a whole scientific article is here, thank you
been driving only AWD turbo cars for 17 years now and I just bought a mid engine rear wheel drive. This is such a great video buddy. Great job demonstrating what snap oversteer is and the theory behind it all. This is a very valuable video.
yup, lost my first mr2 to snap over steer...bald tires, wet pavement and merging onto the interstate. slid a little and then corrected and went farther the other way and corrected again and into the ditch and slid into a pole. Man i miss that car! great vids!
I have a Gen2 MR2 and yes, you are 100% correct. It is a LOT easier to catch than an old school VW Beetle and there are loads of 911 drivers that haven't gone off the road backwards after years of hared driving. Makes driving a whole lot more fun than any FWD. Wonder what the Stig would say? Great video!
What would the Stig say?
"..."
Only just started watchin your videos but love the way you approach motoring mate. Seem a really chilled dude and the backdrop and roads..........wow. respect man 👊
Thank you for putting yourself out there and trying to inform people. I had a 1986 300zx turbo. The rear suspension was very primitive and was prone to snap oversteer. Like you said, one of the biggest culprits of inducing it was abruptly lifting off thr throttle. You have to use smooth inputs in the steering and throttle modulation. Have fun be safe people.
The intro is legendary tho, yes we all panicked at the thumbnail but come on the intro.
@Porsche Boxster Content Nope, the driver walked away with only minor injuries.
@@SonicSW20 bruh
Thanks for making this! As someone who is interested in mid-engined cars, it's great to see this illustrated in real life.
Great video for Pontiac Fiero owners too! Since it has much more torque, it’s even more important not to suddenly release the right pedal!
Loved driving the MR2 hard when I've had the opportunity to do so. Everything you mentioned I've experienced when driving them (both the 'tiptronic' and the manual) but agree that they are awesome if you understand them. Very, very impressed with how you've explained this car and the experience of driving them. Am hoping to find one at the right price one day and making it into a project performance car. Great budget mid-engine experience for those whose budget isn't quite what they hoped ✔👍😊
Liked and Subscribed, because of your excellent explanation. Snap Oversteer is real, as I’ve experienced with my mid-engine Acura/Honda NSX. It’s important to really understand the strengths and weaknesses of the mid-engine design. By the way, Bosnia - Herzegovina is an absolutely beautiful place. I was there in the 90s, during the difficulties. I hope your family stayed safe during those dark days.
Good info. It is important to be really linear with braking and throttle in the MR2. Tires are so important too, especially in the wet.
I think the real safe way to drive fast is to become smooth with every input. Smooth with your steering wheel, gas pedal, clutch, and sometimes, braking too! Being smooth and controlled goes a very long way in becoming an actually good driver!!
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast
I'm super happy to see this channel is almost at 1 million subs! Great job man if anyone deserves it its you.
i know this is commonly called snap oversteer but i think that's just lift-off oversteer, snap oversteer is when you're trying to catch oversteer but overcorrect it/don't apply throttle and it snaps back the other way, often way too fast to save it at that point, mr cars tend to snap oversteer most aggresively because of their superior rear grip (once they catch traction during a correction, it's very sudden so they snap back) but it also happens on fmr cars, especially with a stagger setup and double wishbone suspension like the s2k, basically the higher rear grip, the harder it'll snap-oversteer after a late/improper/excessive correction (and yeah most of the car community uses lift-off oversteer and snap oversteer interchangeably and it even says so on the wiki but imo that's still incorrect), but great video regardless ofc and some nice saving skills ^^
so snap oversteer would be what happens at 8:26 and 8:34 but since the road is dry and aw11 isn't as snappy as say sw20 (although just as prone to liftoff oversteer) it's not as aggressive (while still much more aggressive than most fr cars) and you still manage to save it by reacting *very* quickly, at 8:51 you correct even better and almost prevent it entirely and at 9:18 you correct perfectly and therefore the car doesn't snap oversteer, in sw20, especially if the road is even a little wet, unless you correct the way you did at 9:18, such snap as at 8:26 is often near-impossible to catch
so it's the thing you talked about in the end of the video - when it snaps back the 2nd time with more momentum, so basically what happens on this video (i'll delete if you don't want links in the comments) ruclips.net/video/R0rzRUB5SEs/видео.html initial liftoff oversteer followed by snap oversteer
@@DMSBrian24 I totally get what you're saying. I'm gonna make a video in the rain one day too. Yes, it is a lot trickier to catch it in the rain, but any rwd drive car requires a bit of advanced driving in the rain. I mean, let's be reasonable, if you don't have experience and decide to attack corners hard during rain in a rwd car....you're really just asking for it. This parking lot was a bit of a challenge too, the loose gravel really helped with the snap effect, not nearly as much as the rain of course, but still. You're also right when it comes to the terminology, lift off oversteer and snap oversteer are technically not one and the same, but absolutely everyone calls it snap oversteer so I really had to use that word otherwise the youtube algorithm will just ignore the video, and the people that are supposed to see it, won't see it :) Btw, I'm really impressed what you did there with all the time codes, thanks a lot for watching!
i mean yeah of course it's still all down to driver skill, i just meant to clarify the terminology just in case but it's a great video regardless as always, thanks for posting ^^ and yeah fair point with the algorithm
This. I also feel the sw is more prone due to having a thicc badonk and turbo. And yes, that combo with rain, uneven road surface, elevation can ruin less careful drivers.
Love this video, it was really tough for you to make it snap oversteer but a great demonstration of lift off oversteer. However i do want to point out that the most common mr2’s to snap are the 90-92 models (referred to as the oversteer king by the DK himself) and the suspension was changed for 93 to help prevent this phenomenon from happening.
The aw11 will always have a place in my heart but i cannot find adequate helmet clearance in one. But my wife has one as a project that we will be starting on later this year and i am all too excited for it! I would love to get an sw20 as i do have helmet room in them but they are expensive and I don’t love them as much as the aw.
Your videos are awesome. Thanks for talking about this topic 👍🏼
Very good video. You explained everything quite well! Thanks
I've watched a few of your other videos and this was suggested to me. Didn't know you are a fellow MR2 owner. :) I also have an AW11 (20+ years) and ZZW30, which I almost exclusive use for track lapping. I see you countered simply by using quick steering inputs, but one thing I also learned, (but I wouldn't necessarily suggest other novice people to do it), is to actually put in more throttle to get the weight transfer back over the rear drive wheels to get more traction. After years of autocrossing my AW11, this is what I learned and what worked for me -- also because the car isn't that powerful and in 2nd gear autocross courses I'm not going that fast, I can get away with just flooring the accelerator pedal and the car would regain grip. With the MR Spyder, I have to be a bit more smoother with the accelerator, but the same idea works for me. I also like inducing snap oversteer on purpose to get the car to rotate quickly around a sharp turn in some autocross courses, instead of taking it wide --- of course if I mess up, I lose time, but if I do it right, it's faster. :) Overall, though, like you said, you need experience and time behind the wheel of a mid-engined car, from the lowly MR2 or Fiero to Lotus to exotics, because it's not as easy to drive as, say a Miata or S2000 or AWD cars...
19 years of AW11 ownership taught me an immense amount about handling, smooth inputs and predictable power delivery (NA is my preference).
This is all spot on. The best thing that can be done to combat snap oversteer.............. become a better driver. This takes time, this takes patience.
I learned that balance in a parking lot during a massive rainstorm. Once that balance was learned in pouring rain, feeling it in the dry was so much easier because the reaction of the car was so much slower due to the increased traction.
With that learned, enjoying canyon roads was infinitely more fun and the speed kept increasing too!
And that is when you truly learn about alignment...... Once you have sorted out a custom alignment that works for your driving (ie. do not just get a 'stock' alignment), you'll immediately feel more comfortable and your speed will increase further.
My Porsche Boxster snap oversteered, I responded in time, but the car apparently didn't respond like my previous bmw e36 due to lack of front weight, then I guess I played a lot with the steering and the car spun in the other direction. Fortunately, no one was hurt. So yes, I was very confident before that happened, didn't realize the danger. Mid engine cars handle amazing, but there is a nuanses, thanks for your efforts to show it in the video, very well explained and shown
The only time I had "snap oversteer" I had to force it. In my case super low springs 17's and rain. The car in the wet into a corner was in understeer so tried more and more throttle to see when it would let go and it took full throttle or near full before the car Snapped the back out and even then it was easy to get back. Drive smooth through corners and have decent rubber then you can't go wrong.
Good video and must watch for inexperienced drivers.
best cure for snap oversteer is a lsd after years of driving Aussie falcons and Holden with single spinners then getting a lsd sorted but yiou still have to have some skill with weight transfer and Swedish flicks and a proper counter steering ,drift bible is a great asset to
Brilliant execution. Very much appreciated. Have seen a similar video, but your's is better. Like your sense of humor. Seen MR2 Mll that was damaged severely, fortunately no one was injured. This partially explains why MR2's are expensive to insure. Have owned my MR2 since 1991.
It really means a lot when someone who has owned the car for 28 years appreciates my video. Thank you!
My old Peugeot 306 gti6 was FWD but also had this snap oversteer, especially on lifting suddenly or panic braking in the corner. The torsion bar in the rear unloaded itself and the front was already way heavier so the back would come around, most of the time the solution was to mash the throttle to the point of even inducing understeer on purpose. I did face the wrong way a few times before I had it under control though lol
fantastic video man, really helpful information for people new to mid engine cars. What a stunning location, I hope you revisit this place again in the future. Wow Sarajevo !
this is a really good video my man. can't wait to see your channel take off. its gonna happen. Ive been watching for years. only had my mk 1 since January though :D
I don't really care if it takes of or not, as long as I have the awesome community with ppl like you. I'm in this for fun and to help ppl enjoy their cars, RUclips success is just a possible side effect.
@@d4a Ayy brother, must be awesome to look back at comments like this given where you are now! Keep up the great content :)
Bless you man I feel so much better owning my MR2 spyder
That was awesome. Great video!
The headlights at 8:49 got me. Liked and subbed.
I've driven mid-engine cars for 35 plus years and have found that you are absolutely right about safe/stable tires and suspension components. All the tires MUST match, as far as sidewall stability and tread type. I found out many times while driving a 1988 Bertone X-1/9 with thin tread depth. Luckly, the little Bertone had excellent spin control, as it spins very tightly. It was certainly enough to give me respect for the unique handling of mid-engine cars. In my experience, the snap oversteer can be countered by tweaking the rear alignment. I usually set the rear toe slightly in, while the camber to slightly negative. It tends to counter the oversteer tendency of the compressed rear suspension during hard turns. I also like to set the front for a little bit of understeer, but not too extreme. I have done this on my AW11 MR2. I like to test drive it on Ozark Mountain roads, which have many tight corners. So far, it's been very predictable in handling. I think Toyota revised the rear track rods on the AW11 "B" model to help with the oversteer issue.
I have been trying to explain this for awhile. Never let off! Look ahead.
You know, on high speeds it can easily spin under throttle as well. And it's not that funny. At all.
I have an MR2 Spyder and I have experienced the kick-out if cornering at high speed, but it corrects itself. I have just noticed that my front tires are starting to wear on the insides and need an alignment. This is a great reminder.
little tip: try to adjust your seating/steeringwheel position, so you can place your wrists on top of your steering wheel, without you back/shoulders leaving the seat. will help you get better control of your car. if possible of course, i know most of these older cars just don't have enough adjustability to do so and still drive comfortably.
As ex MK2 owner, i was amazed how stuck to ground the car was, and one morning the car literally saved my life because of oversteer. I was rushing to work and went over speed limit just to notice yellow going red, automatically pressed brakes and car went sideways. All it took to instinctively accelerate before going 90 degrees, car went straight in turn and by sidelook i just took aggressive turn. Felt horrible, but damn, MR2 driving is like driving a carting.
how did it save your life tho?
I currently own a Fiero GT (and had an MR2 in the past) and naturally we Fiero owners have a similar "issue" our cars being mid-engine as well. Like you said, it's all about knowing your car's handling characteristics and paying attention to the warning signs that your car is giving you that she's about to flick her tail out. You can feel when it's about to happen, it's a very unusual feeling that's hard to describe to someone who's never driven midship cars.
the suspension on the fiero is better.
Excellent, thanks for take the time and do this. People need to understand it to avoid it
Great video man 👍
Ωραίο βίντεο. Συμπυκνωμένη πληροφορία σε λίγα λεπτά! Ευχαριστούμε Χρήστο!
Excellent video! Thank you!
Great Learning and teaching here! Its good to know for any rear wheel drive car with over 150 rwhp tbh. And ALWAYS TIRES! TIRES! TIRES!
svaka čast za video, brate
Man, this makes me want an AW11 Mr2 so bad...
werd brutha
Nice
Get a Fiero
@@sladeb6036 do you have a fiero?...are they nice?ive owned 4 sw20's and one aw11....i like the way the sw20 looks so much more than aw11 but i WISH they drove like the aw11....they have an idiscribable magical quallity.i seriously doubt that just because the fiero is mid engine it has t aswell but i never driven one so i dont know....but have you driven/owned an sw20 or aw11? whats your opinion of them compared to the fiero?
Extremely insightful. Thank you very much.
Good timing on the tripod blow-over! I laughed out
Huh i never knew of letting go of the wheel thats neat.
Also that scenery is sooooooo pretty
Bosnia,Sarajevo,Bjelasnica.
I went from MX-5 to MR2 MK3 just two months ago and this video helps so much bro, thanks!
Mk3's are good at handling
@@alexkamikaze9922 yep! Unbelievably good!!
Give the man his Like for putting his mark one mr2 on the line for the memes.
this video is so helpful and good love it
Fantastic Video, & Scenery, Classic Car, And Perfect Location!
I Tried Long and Hard to Force Parents Citroen BX to Oversteer in an Empty Parking
Countless Times, But Nothing.
Not Even Handbrake in Mid-Corner, Just Zero Oversteer. (endless understear)
One Day Driving On A Road, With 5 Passengers, On a Very Steep Downhill Blind Left Turn,
In Mid-Corner I Spot a Traffic Jam With 4-5 Meters to Spear.
I Slammed the Brakes, And Got A Big Shock, It Snapped So Hard & Fast,
It Was Over Before I Blinked, Just Total Disbelief!
(More Reaction Time Wouldn't Change The Outcam, I Wasn't Ready for It, A Blink of an Eye Fast!
It Came to a Stop, (no crash - amazing brakes!)
But BX Tail Was Blocking the Opposite Lane, on 2 Way Road.
You Won't Be Ready For it In Real Life Driving, Not Sure Any One Could Have Save it Unprepared.
Cheers, Grate Video!
I’m 6 minutes in and this is an engineering explained quality video. Props
That was a fun and well done video. Great car by the way. I thought it was funny when the lights popped up like the car was freaking out! Looked like a good way to spend the morning. If you ever need a camera man give ma a call. 😂✌🏁
8:50 he flashed me
The MR2 is flirting
Try it at 75+mph...not much chance for counter steering out of it. Great video. Thanks.
thank you for this video. loving the chanel
Good video for those less experienced but difficult snap oversteer occurs with FERD cars where it can happen in an in a blinding instant and is irrecoverable. It happens in a corner with power on and can be caused by poor car setup where there is nothing that the driver can do to recover. The counter steer reaction is automatic so there is no driver problem there.
Watching these videos, I notice one important thing, the wheel alignment is pretty good. When both hands off the steering wheel, no drifting left or right hahah😂
LOL, perfect timing with the camera drop! :)
I commend you on your explanation. very clear.
For a really good job keep up the good work
I think everybody else will agree that next time if you feel like wearing out your tires more, you should try drifting in the rain or snow
haha definitely :) The rear right one got some nice marks on it, I shed a little tear :)
Thank you Bron!
lol, i used to have to brake kick mid entry to really get the rear out for track drifting back in my crazy days. snap oversteer is basically a tank slapper moment brought on by losing acceleration at your polar moment of inertia.
I really like how you explained snap oversteer. Im not a RUclipsr but I'm gonna remember your explanation the next time I explain snap oversteer.
Snap over steer at 11:44 lol
Thanks for the video, I have a my first track day coming up in my MK3 MR2, hoping I don't crash.
I think they fixed the issue with the later second gens so a third gen probably won’t
For the Corvette C8, Chevy added an adjustable suspension and factory recommendations on setup for road vs track. It's setup by default for the "tame" handling: slight understeer for stability. But with tire pressures and a suspension adjustment, you can induce a more grippy front for those who can handle it. Sure, it's mostly for legal reasons, but still. The fact that Chevy have optional "hands on" adjustments outside of what's usually only relegated to a push button "drive mode," is a nod to many traditionalist hot rodders and car enthusiasts.
here´s a Tunnel..... shift down...... brrrooooooaaaaaaaammmmmmm...
LOVE IT !!!!
That's some genuinely beautiful scenery
Thank you for a video on this, this will apply to the Pontiac Fiero as well for those in the US, or the few that have imported them.
Never got to try one but heard from trusted sources they are softer but more predictable, just at cost of feedback. Good choice of engine swaps, i see them a lot in regional events they have some strong force there.
Still very valuable info. Much appreciated. Thank you.
Great vid!
11:50 I thought you did that on purpose lmao 🤣
That tripod has comedic timing.
💯! Tires tires tires got poly bushings on my AW as well but man best upgrade was when I put on my Yokohoma S drives unfortunately they discontinued the tire I'll have to find a new one tire soon tho 😅
Great video, thank you.
Very nice location. You live in a beautiful place man. Cool video too. 👍🏼👍🏼
6:32 goddamn that spot looked way to familair! Turns out ive been there like a decade ago when i was on a holiday in my country of origin. btw great info!
The older I'm getting the more I start to appreciate the the Toyota MR's
I always already liked em like pretty much most 80s and 90s JDM.
But by now it has become one of my more favourite one's instead of least favourite JDM.
Although I myself still drive (and am a sucker for) 70s-80s VW & BMW.
Good video, a lot of instances of "bad luck" aren't coincidence but a result of bad preparation.
In this case it's understanding your car's balance, importance of tires, and arguably most important your experience/accustoming to your own car.
Because no model drives exactly alike anymore when it comes to older cars.
As an every day driver of a Mk2 for a period of 12 years I can say the MR2 platform is a fantastic platform BUT!! as he mentioned too many people are show-boating drivers, they just wanna be seen in the car or just drive it however they want. (WRONG APPROACH)
The Mk2 (especially) was designed to handle like the supercars of the day (which it did). The Mk2 was indeed a watered down 1989 Lotus Esprit right down to the suspension, interior design, and engine discplacement. The MR2 is not a show-boater car, its a "drivers car" which means it requires an experienced and well trained driver to really control it.
A "drivers car" demands respect, the problem with the MR2 is also one its high points; its so damn good at handling and gives drivers the confidence but it is far better than 99% of the people who drive it. Just because you can buy it does not mean you are good enough to drive it.
Its not just a matter of correcting the car too little or too much but morr a matter of how long it takes you to correct it. If the car is already anywhere near sideways or even having the tail beyond mildly loose then its already too late for 99.5% of drivers to recover. Unless a driver catches the MR2 the moment it goes over the limit then its too late. Even then, only 1% of drivers are good enough to recover the car.
I got mine from a guy who had factory shocks (were long since blown), with unmatched tires (no names in the front and Cooper performance in the rear) which also were not offset as they should have been. 2 weeks into ownership I had the humbling experience of hitting an oil slick coming off the motorway, while decreasing from 60mph (100kph)while turning into and an extremely sharp, increasing radius corner. My car fishtailed (90 degree fish tail to the left then an immediate 180 degree swing back to the right before finally correcting). Yes it can be recovered from snapback but arrogance wont cut it and neither will false confidence in yourself. Toyota did a lot right with the design but plenty wrong, the suspension was too soft, the ride height too high, and tires far too narrow to contend with the stiffness of the chassis which gave the car a morre difficult detection point for limits and made it harder to recover. The inexperienced driver is the danger when it comes to the MR2 not the otherway around.
It may not say Ferrari, Porsche, etc. on it but do not let that fool you, the MR2 is an extremely capable car but demands a truely competent driver. Clearly most of the professional car reviewers weren't good enough since they crashed too often.
Thanks for this awesome vid’ man ! I really liked the fact you actually practice snap-oversteer in different ways to show us and give good advices to follow
Btw you really remind me of Zach Jobe from Donut Media
i think lift-off oversteer would be a better characterization. snap is when you don't return to center on time (when the car regains traction) after countersteering, causing it to flick/snap in the direction your wheel is still pointed (when it should have been returned to center by that time).
@ 9:07 after lift-off oversteer, you returned to center almost at the perfect time, so there was no snap oversteer. @ 8:26, you were a little late to return to center when the car regained traction so it "snapped" left. so there was lift-off followed by snap.
adding throttle can also help after the rear gets loose, transferring weight back to the rear as opposed to waiting for the car to regain traction while countersteering.
Great video thank you