Yes, and I wanted to point out that not everybody has a trim and proper history. Everybody has some skeletons in their closet, had lied or told lies, and have done and said some shady things not just the Gracies. And not just the Gracies believe their style of combat is the superior way to fight. Alot of people who take kung fu think their sytle is the superior way to fight and will always lead to victory, but in fact it depends on what you know and what your opponent(s) know.
@billysue2 Developing variations is also refining. Its no secret that BJJ came form Judo but its silly to say that BJJ developed many more ways of employing techniques than Judo has. Considering I have a lot of experience with both I can say that confidently.
No you are wrong. Samurai is a class or title. It literally means "he who serves." Samurais practiced a wide range of arts from sword, spear, kusarigama, to jujutsu.
@Lordasia Yes you are very much correct, judo still has it`s fair share of shime and kenstu waza`s. Which are all legal in competition. Not sure about all of the types of ankle locks though?
Gotta admire Helio for what he created. Gotta admire the way his sons carried it on. The Gracies have not proved to be invincible tho: Rickson is the only won who never lost, and he avoided fighting Sakuraba when Saku was kicking Gracie ass.
Yeah your right about Ralph going for a shoot. But still it's not easy to get a clinch someone can move; dodge tot he side and punch or kick. He refered to the, "the inevitable clinch" to those gracie vs. style videos because those people (at the the time in the late 80's and early 90's) did not have sense of what do do once they got on the clinch and went to the ground. That's why he said inevitable because he knew that once he got the clinch and got the fight to the ground that was it.
It's self defense and least the graice's self defense as demonstarted here by Helio is what made bjj stand apart from judo or japanese jujutsu's self defense. Plus Helio his family were willing to demonstrate what they know against people ALOT..which was unheared of at the time. Helio was in this t.v show in the 1967 and he was challenged bu\y a capoiera practioner. A week later they fougth in a live television program. The program was called, "Desafio 67".
@pacificimporters I still do some Koryu JJ form time to time but for the most part now I just use it as a reference. Too much dead training goes on for real use. I'm glad you have introduced some alive elements. One of the turn offs from Koryu JJ training was the attitudes against alive training. The alive training has allowed me to pull waza that senior students couldn't because they weren't used to resistance.
Remember Brazil and where they lived had a different outlook on life than what you or I may precieve life ot be. Fighting in Brazil I would say is more frequent than in let's say Japan (I could be wrong). The gracies did what they did in order to make money, but that doesn't mean what they show does not work. They were willing to back up what they say especially in Brazil.
@dudesrock2 What do you mean by Japanese JJ? Gendai or Koryu. If you are talking about Koryu JJ then you are wrong. Koryu JJ is extremely outdated and very little is applicable to today. I studied several Koryu arts while I was in Japan. We no longer fight with the weaponry that Koryu JJ dealt with and we no longer wear the type of yoroi (armor). If you are talking about Gendai JJ, such as Judo, then BJJ is herald even in japan as one of the most effective ones.
That was it for those people. What I agree with alot of people is that the whole style vs. style thing does not make a style better than another. It just shows that the person reacted better, knew something more, or had more expierence in that type of angle of a fight.
"It doesn't take much to initiate a clinch". ->Are you serious? Watch Ufc 3 & 4. It's about timing and that takes a while to develop. Because people aren't stupid in mma or even in some street fights, they'll knee you in the head (case in point: Ralph Gracie vs. Gomi) or any other way to avoid a clinch.
OKAY, but home many of those judoka's students or onlookers followed what they have done (participate NHB fights), and were pretty sucessful at it? And had alot of their own family members participating in NHB figths as well and becoming pretty sucessful at it too?
@chilidog1001 With in the last 30 yrs how many times a judoka has won a match with a gogoplata (yes I know the japanese name but I don't think you do with out googling it) ?
Alot of other people who practice other martial arts think the same too not just Helio. My friend, and his sifu in shaolin kung fu; they believe their style can produce THEE BEST FIGHTERS, and is the best style. When again it's not the style it's the person and what he/she knows which will dictate the winner or her/his surivial. AND alot of people can not come to girps with that.
Dude what i was trying to say was that Kano originally favored technique over strength. Using the sense of balance and momentum. The throws were designed from jujutsu to use minimum strength. You still didn't answer my questions: -Was it right for Kimura to render people unconscious during randori? -Was it right for Kimura to Cheat during one of his dan testing (the written section)?
DO you think Kimura knocking some people unconscious during randori is right? (as I read on him) That goes against Kano's view for Judo. And him cheating on the written part of one of his dan testing, do you think that was right?(you can read up on this if you like). How about adding strength to Judo (pulling rope form a tree to better you throws), doesn't that goes against Kano's original view of using technique over strength? Yet Kano allows it eventually.
@rne02 Judo is a form of JiuJitsu. Judo was called JiuJitsu for a long time. I wouldn't say it really took out all the dangerous techniques because you can still kill someone with a choke and you can still break peoples limbs. The difference is the training. Moves that you can practiced on a resisting partners you learn to apply them better. Japanese JJ primarily uses kata to teach. This is one reason Kano's Judo was able to beat older JJ schools.
@Lordasia Asia you don't do any koryu JJ anymore? We used to chat on Ebudo WAY back in the day. I'm still doing Genbukan and Kokusai Jujutsu and I agree that you have to incorporate randori into it. Since I've started training it more "judo like" and doing more newaza, I've actually gotten better at the kata I think. It's a shame that so many koryu just train "dead", when randori was common in the old days too. Keep up the good work!
@chilidog1001 In any book written by a Gracie states that Carlos learned directly from Mitsuyo Maeda. Its callded JJ because when it came to Brazil Judo was still being called Jiu Jitsu. Tomita, one of Kano's students, even refered to Judo as Jiu Jitsu int the the early 1900s. Mikonosuke Kawaishi, Kodokan 7th, used both Judo and JJ interchangeably. The art he took to France is still called Kawaishi Ryu JJ to this day. I guess he stole too, right? Seriously stop being damn ignorant.
Eh can't deny that the self defense looks good though. People say that w/ gjj you can't take on more than one person but if you apply these type of self defense tactics you possibly can take out 2 or maybe 3 people at th same time.
@Lordasia Except that BJJ isn't Jui-Jitsu at all and should more acuratley be called Brazilian Judo, as it derives from Kodokan Judo. Judo itself was a sport created by takign all of the dangerous techniques out of Jui-Jitsu so that it could be taught in schools.
I mean grappling, especially in the ground is known to give a pretty ripped physique (given eating the proper food). Or maybe the idea of being able to hold your own in a fight will attract girls (which in natural case sometimes it does, believe it or not). I'm not trying to say what the Gracies said is not shady, but yeah.
MrOphachew Hello, I only know a little about Hakko Ryu but I have a black belt in Danzan Ryu. Both DZR and GJJ were founded in 1925. The major difference is that there is a larger focus on ground work than DZR. Due to being involved in Vale Tudo (Anything Goes) matches against Karate, Capoeira, Luta Livre, etc. there are some different approaches to combat. I good video I would suggest is "Gracies in Action." I like it because it shows how effective GJJ is in against different styles and people.
Oh and please name me those judokas that have had as much, or more publicity around different countries as Maeda. And were as sucessful as Maeda in winning alot of his challenge matches against other styles. And also POSSIBLY...POSSIBLY has influenced other styles as well. As I see some old school catch wrestlers applying jujutsu type of throws (at times). And please lend me some reading material on them too.
My little cousins are falling into that view that a style is superior to a style. They think you can beat anyone with kung fu, because it has "dangerous/deadly" strikes. But who said that someone has to just stand there as they apply those strikes? Who says I can move out of the way, and apply what I know given the position?
@barrettokarate Don't worry i won't ..The only one i could tell is Lucio 'lagarto' who's my coach at gracie barra, or roger gracie who academy it is.. And i know who it is my friend.. Renzo is a legend in my neck of the woods, he even wore my football teams shirt at the abu dhabi ufc event.. peace..
Yeah but people who study judo give bjj sucess to judo. And some newbies who barely touched judo's surface think judo is one of a kind. When Karo Parisyian does a throw in MMA, the say it's judo. But that throw can date back to one of the school of jujutsu. I really think they should give Maeda credit. I mean maeda challenging and being challenged but other arts or dusciplines. Does't that sound similiar to the Gracies?
@chilidog1001 two things very wrong with your statement 1) Gracies have ALWAYS claimed their art came from Maeda (a judoka) 2) Maeda did not teach them very thing. Prime example "Sankaku Jime" (Triangle Choke). The Triangle didn't come into Gracie JJ until the around the 70s. Rolls Gracie learned it from a Judo book and started using it. Something the Gracies freely admit too. So please don't be so ignorant next time. Thank you.
Also according to Reila Gracies book and Maeda’s family today in Brazil claims Carlos Gracie never trained with Maeda and instead earned his bluebelt from Maeda’s student donatos pires who also was the former owner of the gym that became the first gracie academy.
Now that they are in the states they would rather get payed lots of money to fight a professional fighter (Like Rickson). But if anybody had a problem with them they can step into their academy or whatever and they can settle matters there (as I see in youtube with Robin Gracie bare knuckle fighting some professional fighter i think).
Yeah that is shallow. But I mean alot of disciplines I guess have that notion but they don't say it. I mean at the time who wouldn't want a Samurai man or a chinese warrior in the early centurries (they study their respected styles)? And I think..I think what the Gracies mean't by doing gjj to score hot chicks...is that you will get a pretty ropped physique, thus attracting girls.
Oh and let's not forget where judo came from too. Alot of the stuff judo has, came from jujutsu. It' s not like judo is 100% unique. And that tieing rope to a tree to practice a throw routine came from another martial art too...I don't remember which martial art but it was not 1st invented for the purpose of judo.
He's not the best in solid grappling in general. But when it comes to applying submissions in his fights he is good. I don't see him winning any abu dabi in his weight class or in absoulte weight division or in any major major grappling competitions.
This is just judo, the way they stand up after no gets the advantage the gratious display of throws and the KIME-NO-KATA display as 'gracie' self defence. Oh and the 'grand master' who got his ass kicked by Kimura, and the state champion when only about 20 people in brazil practiced Judo!!!
Here I go wasting time on this, than looking for a job. But whatever. Yes there is some Shady stuff with the Gracies, but who doens't have some shady things going on? There is alot of practioners out their who do some stuff that is not right.
"The most complete form of self defense." Don't get me wrong I think it's an amazing martial art and I love practicing it but it's quite far from complete. The stand up and take downs are not very impressive. Once on the ground it is second to none. R.I.P. Grand Master Helio
@chilidog1001 First off you are WRONG. "Ju Jutsu" "Jiu Jitsu" は同じ どちらでもいい 日本で柔術だけだ Second your reasoning is wrong. One man can refine techniques but another can't? Ridiculous. I've seen more setups for say an armbar in BJJ than I have ever seen in over 20 yrs of doing Judo. Next time try to construct a logical argument. So far you haven't said anything that hasn't been reputed.
its cool to see how the sport has developed, and to see some of the self defense moves they still teach today the exact same way
he was a real genius of jiujitsu.
Great to see this footage
I like how he gets his girl back towards the end. 😂 but not sure if I’d want her back after walking away with her lad.
Yes, and I wanted to point out that not everybody has a trim and proper history. Everybody has some skeletons in their closet, had lied or told lies, and have done and said some shady things not just the Gracies. And not just the Gracies believe their style of combat is the superior way to fight.
Alot of people who take kung fu think their sytle is the superior way to fight and will always lead to victory, but in fact it depends on what you know and what your opponent(s) know.
@billysue2 Developing variations is also refining. Its no secret that BJJ came form Judo but its silly to say that BJJ developed many more ways of employing techniques than Judo has. Considering I have a lot of experience with both I can say that confidently.
Big respects to the Gracie family.
No you are wrong. Samurai is a class or title. It literally means "he who serves." Samurais practiced a wide range of arts from sword, spear, kusarigama, to jujutsu.
3:25 I know what guard pass I'm working on this week
these are very classical jujutsu moves.. very cool vid.
@Lordasia Yes you are very much correct, judo still has it`s fair share of shime and kenstu waza`s. Which are all legal in competition. Not sure about all of the types of ankle locks though?
Gotta admire Helio for what he created. Gotta admire the way his sons carried it on. The Gracies have not proved to be invincible tho: Rickson is the only won who never lost, and he avoided fighting Sakuraba when Saku was kicking Gracie ass.
"Unfortunate, not to be wrong..."
"There goes your girl.."
epic
3:17 That was a pretty bad ass flying armbar !
Yeah your right about Ralph going for a shoot. But still it's not easy to get a clinch someone can move; dodge tot he side and punch or kick.
He refered to the, "the inevitable clinch" to those gracie vs. style videos because those people (at the the time in the late 80's and early 90's) did not have sense of what do do once they got on the clinch and went to the ground. That's why he said inevitable because he knew that once he got the clinch and got the fight to the ground that was it.
It's self defense and least the graice's self defense as demonstarted here by Helio is what made bjj stand apart from judo or japanese jujutsu's self defense. Plus Helio his family were willing to demonstrate what they know against people ALOT..which was unheared of at the time.
Helio was in this t.v show in the 1967 and he was challenged bu\y a capoiera practioner. A week later they fougth in a live television program. The program was called, "Desafio 67".
@pacificimporters I still do some Koryu JJ form time to time but for the most part now I just use it as a reference. Too much dead training goes on for real use. I'm glad you have introduced some alive elements. One of the turn offs from Koryu JJ training was the attitudes against alive training. The alive training has allowed me to pull waza that senior students couldn't because they weren't used to resistance.
Ow!!! Never saw Fedor doing BJJ. And he is the best.
Remember Brazil and where they lived had a different outlook on life than what you or I may precieve life ot be. Fighting in Brazil I would say is more frequent than in let's say Japan (I could be wrong).
The gracies did what they did in order to make money, but that doesn't mean what they show does not work. They were willing to back up what they say especially in Brazil.
sure enough! there's a hope.
@dudesrock2 What do you mean by Japanese JJ? Gendai or Koryu. If you are talking about Koryu JJ then you are wrong. Koryu JJ is extremely outdated and very little is applicable to today. I studied several Koryu arts while I was in Japan. We no longer fight with the weaponry that Koryu JJ dealt with and we no longer wear the type of yoroi (armor). If you are talking about Gendai JJ, such as Judo, then BJJ is herald even in japan as one of the most effective ones.
That was it for those people.
What I agree with alot of people is that the whole style vs. style thing does not make a style better than another. It just shows that the person reacted better, knew something more, or had more expierence in that type of angle of a fight.
No BJJ came from Judo. Maeda also did catch wrestling but was a judoka. He was the one that taught the Gracies.
"It doesn't take much to initiate a clinch".
->Are you serious? Watch Ufc 3 & 4. It's about timing and that takes a while to develop. Because people aren't stupid in mma or even in some street fights, they'll knee you in the head (case in point: Ralph Gracie vs. Gomi) or any other way to avoid a clinch.
OKAY, but home many of those judoka's students or onlookers followed what they have done (participate NHB fights), and were pretty sucessful at it? And had alot of their own family members participating in NHB figths as well and becoming pretty sucessful at it too?
@chilidog1001 With in the last 30 yrs how many times a judoka has won a match with a gogoplata (yes I know the japanese name but I don't think you do with out googling it) ?
Alot of other people who practice other martial arts think the same too not just Helio. My friend, and his sifu in shaolin kung fu; they believe their style can produce THEE BEST FIGHTERS, and is the best style. When again it's not the style it's the person and what he/she knows which will dictate the winner or her/his surivial. AND alot of people can not come to girps with that.
Can I use this footage for our bjj group.please?
Dude what i was trying to say was that Kano originally favored technique over strength. Using the sense of balance and momentum. The throws were designed from jujutsu to use minimum strength.
You still didn't answer my questions:
-Was it right for Kimura to render people unconscious during randori?
-Was it right for Kimura to Cheat during one of his dan testing (the written section)?
DO you think Kimura knocking some people unconscious during randori is right? (as I read on him) That goes against Kano's view for Judo. And him cheating on the written part of one of his dan testing, do you think that was right?(you can read up on this if you like). How about adding strength to Judo (pulling rope form a tree to better you throws), doesn't that goes against Kano's original view of using technique over strength? Yet Kano allows it eventually.
@rne02 Judo is a form of JiuJitsu. Judo was called JiuJitsu for a long time. I wouldn't say it really took out all the dangerous techniques because you can still kill someone with a choke and you can still break peoples limbs. The difference is the training. Moves that you can practiced on a resisting partners you learn to apply them better. Japanese JJ primarily uses kata to teach. This is one reason Kano's Judo was able to beat older JJ schools.
@Lordasia Asia you don't do any koryu JJ anymore? We used to chat on Ebudo WAY back in the day. I'm still doing Genbukan and Kokusai Jujutsu and I agree that you have to incorporate randori into it. Since I've started training it more "judo like" and doing more newaza, I've actually gotten better at the kata I think. It's a shame that so many koryu just train "dead", when randori was common in the old days too. Keep up the good work!
caraka olha o mestre hélio o carlos e o carlson caraka que vídeo top!
@chilidog1001 In any book written by a Gracie states that Carlos learned directly from Mitsuyo Maeda. Its callded JJ because when it came to Brazil Judo was still being called Jiu Jitsu. Tomita, one of Kano's students, even refered to Judo as Jiu Jitsu int the the early 1900s. Mikonosuke Kawaishi, Kodokan 7th, used both Judo and JJ interchangeably. The art he took to France is still called Kawaishi Ryu JJ to this day. I guess he stole too, right? Seriously stop being damn ignorant.
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu!!! Massa!!!
Eh can't deny that the self defense looks good though. People say that w/ gjj you can't take on more than one person but if you apply these type of self defense tactics you possibly can take out 2 or maybe 3 people at th same time.
luv it
@Lordasia
Except that BJJ isn't Jui-Jitsu at all and should more acuratley be called Brazilian Judo, as it derives from Kodokan Judo. Judo itself was a sport created by takign all of the dangerous techniques out of Jui-Jitsu so that it could be taught in schools.
O locutor original parece ter vindo diretamente do desenho do Pica-pau hehehe
I mean grappling, especially in the ground is known to give a pretty ripped physique (given eating the proper food).
Or maybe the idea of being able to hold your own in a fight will attract girls (which in natural case sometimes it does, believe it or not).
I'm not trying to say what the Gracies said is not shady, but yeah.
renzo was born in the sixties and this video is from the fifties so its imposible that it was renzo
What the kid don't know is the beach dude gave is girl crabs...
GJJ 4 life...
How does this differ from Hakko and Danzen Ryu Jujutsu?
MrOphachew Hello,
I only know a little about Hakko Ryu but I have a black belt in Danzan Ryu. Both DZR and GJJ were founded in 1925. The major difference is that there is a larger focus on ground work than DZR. Due to being involved in Vale Tudo (Anything Goes) matches against Karate, Capoeira, Luta Livre, etc. there are some different approaches to combat. I good video I would suggest is "Gracies in Action." I like it because it shows how effective GJJ is in against different styles and people.
Gezere9 --Ok, I was just wondering about a comparison of JuJutsu styles. There is also Small circle JuJutsu.
Oh and please name me those judokas that have had as much, or more publicity around different countries as Maeda. And were as sucessful as Maeda in winning alot of his challenge matches against other styles. And also POSSIBLY...POSSIBLY has influenced other styles as well. As I see some old school catch wrestlers applying jujutsu type of throws (at times).
And please lend me some reading material on them too.
I mean who does that in national t.v? Not many..and the Gracie's were willing to take up the challenges.
Yo boy needs to leave that girl
My little cousins are falling into that view that a style is superior to a style. They think you can beat anyone with kung fu, because it has "dangerous/deadly" strikes. But who said that someone has to just stand there as they apply those strikes? Who says I can move out of the way, and apply what I know given the position?
@barrettokarate Don't worry i won't ..The only one i could tell is Lucio 'lagarto' who's my coach at gracie barra, or roger gracie who academy it is..
And i know who it is my friend..
Renzo is a legend in my neck of the woods, he even wore my football teams shirt at the abu dhabi ufc event..
peace..
@ev3nflow LOL Don't tell Renzo Gracie that. The kid that beats up the meat head on the beach is actually Renzo's dad Carlos Robson Gracie.
But what happens when the big strong guy learns Jiu Jitsu?
So you gotta training more and more to be better than him
Yeah but people who study judo give bjj sucess to judo. And some newbies who barely touched judo's surface think judo is one of a kind. When Karo Parisyian does a throw in MMA, the say it's judo. But that throw can date back to one of the school of jujutsu.
I really think they should give Maeda credit. I mean maeda challenging and being challenged but other arts or dusciplines. Does't that sound similiar to the Gracies?
malandrojiujitsu has a point.
@chilidog1001 two things very wrong with your statement 1) Gracies have ALWAYS claimed their art came from Maeda (a judoka) 2) Maeda did not teach them very thing. Prime example "Sankaku Jime" (Triangle Choke). The Triangle didn't come into Gracie JJ until the around the 70s. Rolls Gracie learned it from a Judo book and started using it. Something the Gracies freely admit too. So please don't be so ignorant next time. Thank you.
Triangle choke and its set ups were not in Judo intil the 1920s a decade AFTER Maeda left Japan so of course he didnt teach it.
Also according to Reila Gracies book and Maeda’s family today in Brazil claims Carlos Gracie never trained with Maeda and instead earned his bluebelt from Maeda’s student donatos pires who also was the former owner of the gym that became the first gracie academy.
it is so efiecient self defence that helio himself in order to beat 1 guy(a gymnastick trainer) he took his 3 brothers with him....hm.....
Now that they are in the states they would rather get payed lots of money to fight a professional fighter (Like Rickson). But if anybody had a problem with them they can step into their academy or whatever and they can settle matters there (as I see in youtube with Robin Gracie bare knuckle fighting some professional fighter i think).
Samurai is sword technique, but yes jujutsu developed during feudal Japan for use by bushi.
Who??
that was Renzo's father Robson
O locutor original parece ter vindo diretamente do desenho do Pica-pau
Yeah that is shallow. But I mean alot of disciplines I guess have that notion but they don't say it.
I mean at the time who wouldn't want a Samurai man or a chinese warrior in the early centurries (they study their respected styles)?
And I think..I think what the Gracies mean't by doing gjj to score hot chicks...is that you will get a pretty ropped physique, thus attracting girls.
Oh and let's not forget where judo came from too. Alot of the stuff judo has, came from jujutsu. It' s not like judo is 100% unique. And that tieing rope to a tree to practice a throw routine came from another martial art too...I don't remember which martial art but it was not 1st invented for the purpose of judo.
@dudesrock2 If you're talking about Koryu JJ then you are very wrong. If your talking Gendai JJ then both Judo and BJJ have got them beat as well.
I have never seen that defense to a two hand front choke.....at 4:10
That said, I think Rickson would have creamed Saku.
He's not the best in solid grappling in general. But when it comes to applying submissions in his fights he is good. I don't see him winning any abu dabi in his weight class or in absoulte weight division or in any major major grappling competitions.
@cjudoka you are mistaking gracie jj with madoff jj
He stole my girl now I destroy his elbow.
lol what are you smoking?
This is just judo, the way they stand up after no gets the advantage the gratious display of throws and the KIME-NO-KATA display as 'gracie' self defence.
Oh and the 'grand master' who got his ass kicked by Kimura, and the state champion when only about 20 people in brazil practiced Judo!!!
hav you ever trained in bjj stop dissin what you don't know
Here I go wasting time on this, than looking for a job. But whatever.
Yes there is some Shady stuff with the Gracies, but who doens't have some shady things going on? There is alot of practioners out their who do some stuff that is not right.
just saw that =/
Judo comes from JJ, JJ comes from the Samurais.... Do your homework
"The most complete form of self defense."
Don't get me wrong I think it's an amazing martial art and I love practicing it but it's quite far from complete.
The stand up and take downs are not very impressive. Once on the ground it is second to none.
R.I.P. Grand Master Helio
Nice old video. I don't care for the kick defenses, there are much better ones in the jujutsu system.
i agree. i wouldn't go back to that worthless thing.
@chilidog1001 First off you are WRONG. "Ju Jutsu" "Jiu Jitsu" は同じ どちらでもいい 日本で柔術だけだ
Second your reasoning is wrong. One man can refine techniques but another can't? Ridiculous. I've seen more setups for say an armbar in BJJ than I have ever seen in over 20 yrs of doing Judo. Next time try to construct a logical argument. So far you haven't said anything that hasn't been reputed.
The video doesn't start until 6:15. lol
jssj
This shit is badass…