Thank god I found you,been looking searching you tube for someone to explain this But all the videos were 10 mins long,and I still didn’t understand .you told me in 2 mins and I got it. 👍
Hi. I worked at a brewery industry as a water treatment technician. A work I am relishing daily since I am new at the profession. Now here is ny question: I noticed the water pH level for treated water is measuring at 8.6 to 8.9 which I think is too high for soft drinks or beer production. At this point I am always worry and thinking what to do to have a lower pH than what is listed above here. Could you help if you dont mine? Also, could you provide me with a written explanation for alkalinity and its important in water treatment? Thank you as I await your answes.
Yes. mg/L = ppm, expressed as CaCO3. We like to simplify the chemistry as much as we can to not confuse everyone. But you are correct. Thanks for watching!
Is it poasible that lower alkalinity is possible in higher pH..? I mean 348ppm alkalinity in 11 pH solution... I got this result in a industrial effluent... Is this possible... N if it is... Tell me the reason plz... Thank u..
I want to learning more about pool do you have any suggestion for me to take a class Our hotel is 35000gallon ph is over 10 Alkalinity is 270 l try to put acid to kill HP our pool water so cloudy and not clear I put 3 bottle caps thio trine You can teach me please
Hi, take our free video course, Orenda Academy. academy.orendatech.com/course-listing And your 270 alkalinity is what is driving your pH so high. It should be reduced 20 ppm at a time with diluted acid: ask.orendatech.com/knowledge/how-to-lower-alkalinity-in-a-pool
Great video. I am working on an environmental project and need some input. The EPA alkalinity map for surface waters in the continental US, has many states in the midwest at the top of the scale on the high side for alkalinity. I can find a comparable pH map for surface waters. My question: Would you expect the states with the very high alkalinity to also have a high pH. Any comments would be welcome. Our project has to do with the use of copper sulfate in ecosystems to control weeds and blue green algae. Thank you.
Often, high alkalinity waters have high pH too, but not always. Tap water depends on how the water is treated at the plant, so it’s not a fair reflection of natural water sources. But back to your question, high alkalinity is often a source of higher pH.
Hi, here is a funny question... What should I do, when I get my pool water on 6,9pH and 189ppm alkalinity? True Story. Actually I try to lower the alkalinity by giving some acit to the water. Of course pH degrees to. New values are 6,4 and 118ppm alkalinity. Now here is the point: what can I do, to raise the pH without the alkalinity? Is there a way? Best greetings!
Natural aeration and loss of CO2 will raise the pH. Lower TA gradually with very diluted doses of acid, and crank up the turbulence to accelerate aeration.
Unfortunately not. pH will tell you how basic or acidic the water is. Alkalinity will tell you how much buffering capacity in ppm your water has to resist change in pH (think of it kind of like insulation against changes in temperature). Total alkalinity includes carbonates (bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity) as well as cyanurate alkalinity and others, like borate and to some degree, phosphate. Anything that slows the change in pH.
I bought a water test kit that tests for Total Hardness, Total Chlorine, Alkalinity, pH, Nitrite and Nitrate on a single test strip. The only thing that was not in the ok range was the alkalinity. On a scale of 0 - 240 ppm, it was 0. If alkalinity is too low, shouldn't that have given me a bad pH result? What should I do to verify test results and, if proven correct, what, if anything, should I do to rectify the issue?
Hmm. Yes if your alkalinity is truly zero, your pH would also be quite low and would be very corrosive. Not sure what type of pool surface you have. Double check again and maybe take a sample of water into a pool store for testing too. You could just have water that is below 55°F, and that’s throwing off the test.
@@OrendaTechnologies the water I tested was from the tap inside my upstairs bathroom. I was unaware water temperature was a factor. I will retest. Thank you.
Please advise on the followi g situation: If TA is only a measure of resistance pH change, and the pH is what actually affects the chlorine performance and swimmers' skin, what action should I take (if any) if my TA is way high at around 200ppm, but my pH is a stable 7.2? I've been considering aerating to raise pH only, to create capacity to add muriatic acid to bring TA down.
Hi Owen -- fantastic question. TA is not only a measure of resistance to pH change, it is a measure of total dissolved alkaline substances in water. The net effect of those alkaline substances is neutralizing acids, which buffers pH and helps the pH stay more stable. But to your point, yes, pH is what actually affects chlorine performance and swimmer comfort the most. As for having 200ppm TA, your pH will not change easily. Now, most textbooks say 80-120ppm alkalinity is the "acceptable range", so 200 is obviously higher. That said, what matters more is the LSI balance of the water overall; TA and pH being just two of the six factors. You can find other ways to navigate water balance using our calculator here: www.orendatech.com/pool-dosing-calculator/ You could consider trying a different method of raising the pH that will raise alkalinity less, such as sodium carbonate (soda ash). It has a higher pH than sodium bicarb, therefore it will take less (in ppm) to raise the pH than bicarb. That raises the alkalinity slower than normal. There are many ways to skin this cat. I hope this helps!
Hi Can you help - I use those test test strips with three items on -Free chlorine, PH and Total Alkalinity. The Ph reads 7.5 the free chlorine goes dark green and off the scale and the Total Alco reads 30ppm when I try to set the Free chlorine to @ 1.5 ppm by diluting the sample I cannot obtain the nice blue colour (1.5) on the strip so what am I doing wrong or is it the test strips that are faulty ?
@@OrendaTechnologies Hi - I did what you suggested and now have a reliable test that I can now set my digital meter calibration properly to save on the regular strip testing. While I'm on this subject I would like your opinion - I was contacted by a company pushing a chlorine free pool system - it uses natural methods that override the bad pathogens - sounds good but £16,000 - £20,000 to replace my setup is jaw dropping. Thank you so much
Great question. We are not fish tank experts, so we are not qualified to give you a good answer. We wish we could help more, but we do not know. Sorry!
First thing is to get your pH up to around 7.2-7.8. If your pH is only 6.3, it is almost impossible to maintain LSI balance (Langelier Saturation Index). Consider downloading our free app (Orenda). Enter your water chemistry and see where the LSI is.
Not necessarily, a high pH in combination with the other factors can cause a high LSI which then leads to carbonate scale formation, cloudy water, and weaker chlorine (in non-stabilized pools)
PLEASE HELP! I'M IN A RAT RACE. I have a 30k gal. in ground pool with a liner. My PH tends to be HIGH as a normal condition. (except in Winter) I'm always adding muriatic acid to bring it down. (Up to 3 cups / day when it gets hot) It's impossible for me to raise my TA because, adding Baking Soda to increase my TA causes my PH goes up. Then I'm fighting to get it back down with muriatic acid which brings TA down. This is a real rat race. Should I bother with TA if the PH in my pool tends to be naturally high? Is there a more cost effective way of lowering my PH than Muriatic Acid (about $8 / gal?) FYI My pool has a liner and I always brush the bottom after adding acid so that it stirs up and does not puddle anywhere.
Nobody likes the rat race. Chasing pH is futile because controlling it is pretty much impossible. Instead, contain pH. Here's an article that shows you a strategy that works well: blog.orendatech.com/co2-and-ph-henrys-law In short, your pH is supposed to rise, because CO2 is leaving the water to equalize with the air above. When equilibrium occurs, your pH will stop rising. We call that the pH ceiling. Depending on your carbonate alkalinity, that pH ceiling is usually around 8.2. The lower your carbonate alkalinity, the lower the ceiling. Sounds to me like you're trying to maintain unrealistic levels to begin with. Email eric@orendatech.com to discuss further.
@@OrendaTechnologies I am having the same problem- tho I have an above ground pool with ph @ 7.2 but TA @ 200 and chlorine @ 3.0.. this has been the case for over a day now??
Yes, aeration will raise the pH. That being said, we are in the pool chemistry business and are not qualified to answer how to lower pH safely in a fish tank. We use acid in pools, but that is probably toxic to fish. Sorry we can’t be of more help!
I have an interesting situation that I’m not sure if I should modify at this point. I have spring water to fill my spa. The alklinity is at least 220 (it can move higher. The PH usually begins at 7.2 - 7,6 depending, but very quickly moves into the 8.2 range after a day or two. So, I added muriatic acid in 5 or 10oz amounts over several days to reduce the alklinity. It has now stablilzed the PH at 7.6 for 24 hours in still water at a temp of 102º (This is the first time the PH has not crept higher over a 24 hour period.) But according to a reagent test the alklinity is now 30 (which did not happen until the very last 10oz dose) - which is low. What is the ramification of this alklinity with a stable 7.6 PH ? Should I jusy leave it?
Great question. Since this is a spa, aeration will raise your pH pretty rapidly regardless of what you do. Alkalinity is primarily a buffer to protect against dropping the pH too low (or too easily). You should have enough alkalinity to maintain LSI balance at that water temperature. So you can to use the Orenda app (onelink.to/fzqmjk) to see what your LSI is when you enter all your parameters. Most likely you will need about 60-80 alkalinity in your circumstance, but you can get away with 30 ppm if you have higher levels of calcium hardness. It depends on how accurate you measure acid. We recommend at least 60 ppm alkalinity in your case.
That's a great question, and one we do not hear too often. A challenge you will have in a spa or hot tub is aeration (bubbles). When excessive agitation and bubbling occurs, carbon dioxide (CO2) off-gasses and leaves the water; that, in turn, raises the pH (but not alkalinity). You can learn more about dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid in water) here: blog.orendatech.com/what-is-alkalinity In other words, because of the aeration, you are fighting an uphill battle because the pH will naturally rise in a hot tub. One way to counteract it would be to inject CO2 back into the water, but this may be cumbersome. There may be spa products we are unaware of that allow for lowering alkalinity without lowering pH. We just don't know of any. Perhaps look into raising your calcium hardness in lieu of higher alkalinity, and use acid to lower both pH and alkalinity. Our calculator app can help you dose it properly while always maintaining LSI water balance: www.orendatech.com/pool-dosing-calculator/ Thanks so much for the great question!
My experience (as a dude who sees this problem quite often) in our store is that the best way to handle this is to lower your alkalinity and re-test your water. Now you add either pH+ or alkalinity increaser depending on the test results. Usually, alka+ will work just fine. I also notice that pH in hot tubs using chlorine or bromine eventually drops because of the acidity in those stabilized products. Never heard of the air bubblers increasing pH... interesting!
@@OrendaTechnologies No ....lol...not at all..the introduction of air to water is well ongoing infinitely...you will never introduce carbon dioxide into a jacuzzi...holy crap this is the most fictional hogwash ive ever heard...pH may rise due to pollutants skin oils hair oils food drinks or urine or feces or organic things like grass tree or leaf clippings bugs insects etc..THAT IS what raises your pH...alkalinity comes from your outside source when you use your jacuzzi spa you splash displace or remove bit by bit even natural evaporation or just plain usage...your spa will automatically refill water from your main water line.,this is city water and is usually pretty high in alkalinity...and there mystery solved!
Tamara Kennedy fictional hogwash? Great phrase, but it is not applicable to CO2 and pH. The loss of CO2 does in fact raise pH, and injecting CO2 back in the water does in fact lower pH. Here’s one of many sources online showing why: www.soest.hawaii.edu/oceanography/courses/OCN623/Spring2013/CO2_Alk_pH_2013_handouts31.pdf
What are your thoughts on “pooling” Muriatic acid with pump off to greatly reduce alkalinity without effecting pH much? Apparently, walking around pool pouring it in and switching pump will circulate chemicals but also adds oxygen which significantly amplifies the effects on muriatic acid on pH. They say if you want to lower TA by a wide margin, minimise water movement by turning off the pump and any water features etc. They DO say this is an opinion, and not a hard fact. Is this a myth? Or is there some truth to this? Do you have any links or in depth information, proof/testing the two methods? I can’t find much info and would really like the truth on this. Thanks!
"Pooling" muriatic acid is worse than simply column pouring. Here's an article with underwater photos of acid with dye in it. It drops to the bottom of the pool, etches the surface like crazy, which offsets the pH. blog.orendatech.com/how-to-add-acid-to-a-swimming-pool So it only appears to lower alkalinty more than pH, but that's at the expense of your plaster. And adding oxygen does not amplify the pH impact of muriatic acid, though adding CO2 would. So yes, it is a myth. Alkalinity correction is linear, no matter how you add the acid. You still get the exact same amount of acid in with dilution, and it will neutralize the exact same amount of alkalinity no matter how you add it.
“Chlorine lock” is sort of a myth, but CYA really does slow chlorine dramatically. As long as you have a decent FC:CYA ratio, you’ll avoid the “lock”, which is technically known as over-stabilization.
How can I measure the PH of a dry powder ? Let’s say bentonite , if I add 7ph distilled water that has 0ph or neutral , does that change the PH of the powder since it is in the same scale ?
That's a great question, and we do not know the answer. The way we check the pH of powders is by reading their SDS (safety data sheet). Theoretically, using 7.0 pH distilled water should not change the pH of the powder and should be accurate...but we do not know. Sorry!
A powder doesn't have a pH, since there are no free ions until they in solution. You need to dissolve ionic bonds in a polar solvent (usually water, but not always) to allow for free protons (H+ or hydonium, which is H30+)
this also means the volume of water matters, since what has pH is the solution. example: 1 teaspoon of baking soda in a small glass of water will move pH quickly, but adding same amount to a bathtub would be unnoticeable. When they talk about pH of a compound, they have to state a molarity to explain the concentration of the solution.
Volume is so low i have my tablet on highest setting...hellp ihave low pH 7.5 but alkalinity is 19 drops to neutralize the purple water in test kit..arrgh
Are you saying your alkalinity is very high? We are not familiar with purple water for an alkalinity test... email eric@orendatech.com for specific questions and discussion about your issue. Thanks!
Hi Lynette. We assume you mean 33,000 gallons (not 3300), and it’s an easy calculation. You can use our free app (called “Orenda”) and adjust the Alkalinity on the left side to 240. Instead of trying to knock out that 140 ppm of Alkalinity at once, we recommend going in 30-40 ppm increments. So go from 240 down to 200, then 160, then 120, then 100, etc. give it a few days between treatments.
Since Muriatic acid can lower both total Alkalinity and pH, Alkalinity and pH are the same thing. Your explanation brings in a lot of irrelevant concepts such as scale, but in essence I don't hear any difference.
They’re not the same thing, though many people do confuse the two (ourselves included, for many years, which is why we made this video to explain). But saying they’re the same because acid reduces both of them is like saying homes and trees are the same thing because forest fires can burn them both down. A better explanation would be in episodes 1, 2 and 3 of our Rule Your Pool podcast, if you’re interested.
It will naturally rise up to 8.1 or so at 60 TA, due to CO2 loss. Look up “Henry’s Law” or “Contain pH” in our website or RUclips channel to learn why.
Thank god I found you,been looking searching you tube for someone to explain this
But all the videos were 10 mins long,and I still didn’t understand .you told me in 2 mins and I got it.
👍
So glad we could help explain it.
It absolutely helped , easy and straight to the point , Thanks
👍🏼
Hi.
I worked at a brewery industry as a water treatment technician. A work I am relishing daily since I am new at the profession.
Now here is ny question: I noticed the water pH level for treated water is measuring at 8.6 to 8.9 which I think is too high for soft drinks or beer production. At this point I am always worry and thinking what to do to have a lower pH than what is listed above here. Could you help if you dont mine?
Also, could you provide me with a written explanation for alkalinity and its important in water treatment?
Thank you as I await your answes.
Units for alkalinity are q/L or mg/L as CaCO3.
Yes. mg/L = ppm, expressed as CaCO3. We like to simplify the chemistry as much as we can to not confuse everyone. But you are correct. Thanks for watching!
Ph chapcity control which chemical
Question. Why my well water PH is low and the Alkaline is extremely high?
No idea, but if you let that water sit and breathe for a day or so the pH will naturally rise if that’s the case.
Is it poasible that lower alkalinity is possible in higher pH..? I mean 348ppm alkalinity in 11 pH solution... I got this result in a industrial effluent... Is this possible... N if it is... Tell me the reason plz... Thank u..
Yes that’s possible. 11 pH is very high, and high alkalinity like 348 ppm could certainly allow for such a high pH.
@@OrendaTechnologies but kindly explain reason for this sir...
How do I raise the KH and GH in my fish tanks without increasing the PH?
We’re not qualified to speak about fish tanks/aquariums. That’s not our area of expertise. Sorry
I want to learning more about pool do you have any suggestion for me to take a class
Our hotel is 35000gallon ph is over 10
Alkalinity is 270 l try to put acid to kill HP our pool water so cloudy and not clear
I put 3 bottle caps thio trine
You can teach me please
Hi, take our free video course, Orenda Academy. academy.orendatech.com/course-listing
And your 270 alkalinity is what is driving your pH so high. It should be reduced 20 ppm at a time with diluted acid: ask.orendatech.com/knowledge/how-to-lower-alkalinity-in-a-pool
Great video. I am working on an environmental project and need some input. The EPA alkalinity map for surface waters in the continental US, has many states in the midwest at the top of the scale on the high side for alkalinity. I can find a comparable pH map for surface waters. My question: Would you expect the states with the very high alkalinity to also have a high pH. Any comments would be welcome. Our project has to do with the use of copper sulfate in ecosystems to control weeds and blue green algae. Thank you.
Often, high alkalinity waters have high pH too, but not always. Tap water depends on how the water is treated at the plant, so it’s not a fair reflection of natural water sources. But back to your question, high alkalinity is often a source of higher pH.
@@OrendaTechnologies thank you
Hi, here is a funny question... What should I do, when I get my pool water on 6,9pH and 189ppm alkalinity? True Story. Actually I try to lower the alkalinity by giving some acit to the water. Of course pH degrees to. New values are 6,4 and 118ppm alkalinity. Now here is the point: what can I do, to raise the pH without the alkalinity? Is there a way? Best greetings!
Natural aeration and loss of CO2 will raise the pH. Lower TA gradually with very diluted doses of acid, and crank up the turbulence to accelerate aeration.
So is it fair to say that pH and total alkalinity are two ways of measuring the same thing (how basic the water is)?
Unfortunately not. pH will tell you how basic or acidic the water is. Alkalinity will tell you how much buffering capacity in ppm your water has to resist change in pH (think of it kind of like insulation against changes in temperature).
Total alkalinity includes carbonates (bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity) as well as cyanurate alkalinity and others, like borate and to some degree, phosphate. Anything that slows the change in pH.
I bought a water test kit that tests for Total Hardness, Total Chlorine, Alkalinity, pH, Nitrite and Nitrate on a single test strip. The only thing that was not in the ok range was the alkalinity. On a scale of 0 - 240 ppm, it was 0. If alkalinity is too low, shouldn't that have given me a bad pH result? What should I do to verify test results and, if proven correct, what, if anything, should I do to rectify the issue?
Hmm. Yes if your alkalinity is truly zero, your pH would also be quite low and would be very corrosive. Not sure what type of pool surface you have. Double check again and maybe take a sample of water into a pool store for testing too. You could just have water that is below 55°F, and that’s throwing off the test.
@@OrendaTechnologies the water I tested was from the tap inside my upstairs bathroom. I was unaware water temperature was a factor. I will retest. Thank you.
Are all (periodic table) anions represent Alkalinity?
No I don’t think so, but we can find out a more specific answer. Great question!
Please advise on the followi g situation: If TA is only a measure of resistance pH change, and the pH is what actually affects the chlorine performance and swimmers' skin, what action should I take (if any) if my TA is way high at around 200ppm, but my pH is a stable 7.2?
I've been considering aerating to raise pH only, to create capacity to add muriatic acid to bring TA down.
Hi Owen -- fantastic question.
TA is not only a measure of resistance to pH change, it is a measure of total dissolved alkaline substances in water. The net effect of those alkaline substances is neutralizing acids, which buffers pH and helps the pH stay more stable. But to your point, yes, pH is what actually affects chlorine performance and swimmer comfort the most. As for having 200ppm TA, your pH will not change easily. Now, most textbooks say 80-120ppm alkalinity is the "acceptable range", so 200 is obviously higher. That said, what matters more is the LSI balance of the water overall; TA and pH being just two of the six factors. You can find other ways to navigate water balance using our calculator here: www.orendatech.com/pool-dosing-calculator/
You could consider trying a different method of raising the pH that will raise alkalinity less, such as sodium carbonate (soda ash). It has a higher pH than sodium bicarb, therefore it will take less (in ppm) to raise the pH than bicarb. That raises the alkalinity slower than normal. There are many ways to skin this cat. I hope this helps!
I am have the same issue. So if my ph is remaining stable with high alkalinity, do I really need to worry about lowering the alkalinity?
Elizabeth Matthews probably not.
What if my acid demand test is perfect. But my total alkalinity is higher that 100 ppm
….Your question is unclear. Please rephrase.
Hi Can you help - I use those test test strips with three items on -Free chlorine, PH and Total Alkalinity. The Ph reads 7.5 the free chlorine goes dark green and off the scale and the Total Alco reads 30ppm when I try to set the Free chlorine to @ 1.5 ppm by diluting the sample I cannot obtain the nice blue colour (1.5) on the strip so what am I doing wrong or is it the test strips that are faulty ?
It sounds like they’re getting bleached out with too much chlorine. Try a different test kit, or chlorinate less so you can get a reading.
@@OrendaTechnologies Hi - I did what you suggested and now have a reliable test that I can now set my digital meter calibration properly to save on the regular strip testing.
While I'm on this subject I would like your opinion - I was contacted by a company pushing a chlorine free pool system - it uses natural methods that override the bad pathogens - sounds good but £16,000 - £20,000 to replace my setup is jaw dropping. Thank you so much
I've a fish tank (5000 littre). I'm producing fish by Biofloc technology. There i need to maintain the alkalinity. For this purpose, what should i do?
Great question. We are not fish tank experts, so we are not qualified to give you a good answer. We wish we could help more, but we do not know. Sorry!
Ph is 6.3, Chlorine is around 3.2 reading of my swimming pool today so what should I do with it. Note, my pool is not a salt chlorinated pool.
First thing is to get your pH up to around 7.2-7.8. If your pH is only 6.3, it is almost impossible to maintain LSI balance (Langelier Saturation Index). Consider downloading our free app (Orenda). Enter your water chemistry and see where the LSI is.
High ph value cause scaling? If not then what happen with high ph value?
Not necessarily, a high pH in combination with the other factors can cause a high LSI which then leads to carbonate scale formation, cloudy water, and weaker chlorine (in non-stabilized pools)
Then what happened when ph is high?
PLEASE HELP! I'M IN A RAT RACE.
I have a 30k gal. in ground pool with a liner.
My PH tends to be HIGH as a normal condition.
(except in Winter) I'm always adding muriatic acid to bring it down. (Up to 3 cups / day when it gets hot)
It's impossible for me to raise my TA because, adding Baking Soda to increase my TA causes my PH goes up. Then I'm fighting to get it back down with muriatic acid which brings TA down. This is a real rat race.
Should I bother with TA if the PH in my pool tends to be naturally high?
Is there a more cost effective way of lowering my PH than Muriatic Acid (about $8 / gal?)
FYI My pool has a liner and I always brush the bottom after adding acid so that it stirs up and does not puddle anywhere.
Nobody likes the rat race. Chasing pH is futile because controlling it is pretty much impossible. Instead, contain pH. Here's an article that shows you a strategy that works well: blog.orendatech.com/co2-and-ph-henrys-law
In short, your pH is supposed to rise, because CO2 is leaving the water to equalize with the air above. When equilibrium occurs, your pH will stop rising. We call that the pH ceiling. Depending on your carbonate alkalinity, that pH ceiling is usually around 8.2. The lower your carbonate alkalinity, the lower the ceiling. Sounds to me like you're trying to maintain unrealistic levels to begin with. Email eric@orendatech.com to discuss further.
Can something have a high alkalinity but not a high ph?
Only temporarily, yes. You could lower pH while having a high alkalinity, but the pH will rebound and rise quickly.
@@OrendaTechnologies I am having the same problem- tho I have an above ground pool with ph @ 7.2 but TA @ 200 and chlorine @ 3.0.. this has been the case for over a day now??
@@stevelund7512 how did you get the alkalinity down without lowering PH?
Very good explanation. Thank You.
Thank you, we try.
My ph was 7.1 in my 5000 lt fish tank but its 8.4 after i have used airation of 75 lt / min pump for 24 hours.. How do i decrease my ph now..
Yes, aeration will raise the pH. That being said, we are in the pool chemistry business and are not qualified to answer how to lower pH safely in a fish tank. We use acid in pools, but that is probably toxic to fish. Sorry we can’t be of more help!
you can use vinegar. or any kind of fruits juice like (Bilombo or any kind of acitic fruits).
Yes.it will work but add in small batches.
I have an interesting situation that I’m not sure if I should modify at this point.
I have spring water to fill my spa. The alklinity is at least 220 (it can move higher. The PH usually begins at 7.2 - 7,6 depending, but very quickly moves into the 8.2 range after a day or two.
So, I added muriatic acid in 5 or 10oz amounts over several days to reduce the alklinity. It has now stablilzed the PH at 7.6 for 24 hours in still water at a temp of 102º (This is the first time the PH has not crept higher over a 24 hour period.)
But according to a reagent test the alklinity is now 30 (which did not happen until the very last 10oz dose) - which is low. What is the ramification of this alklinity with a stable 7.6 PH ?
Should I jusy leave it?
Great question. Since this is a spa, aeration will raise your pH pretty rapidly regardless of what you do. Alkalinity is primarily a buffer to protect against dropping the pH too low (or too easily). You should have enough alkalinity to maintain LSI balance at that water temperature. So you can to use the Orenda app (onelink.to/fzqmjk) to see what your LSI is when you enter all your parameters. Most likely you will need about 60-80 alkalinity in your circumstance, but you can get away with 30 ppm if you have higher levels of calcium hardness. It depends on how accurate you measure acid. We recommend at least 60 ppm alkalinity in your case.
What is tha TA in Degreasing tank
No idea. And here we thought we knew a lot about TA...but our confidence is degreasing.
@@OrendaTechnologies digressing/degreasing? Nice to know you have a sense of humor. Please see the question I'm posting about my pool.
How do I lower total alkalinity in a hot tub? Without lowering my ph
That's a great question, and one we do not hear too often. A challenge you will have in a spa or hot tub is aeration (bubbles). When excessive agitation and bubbling occurs, carbon dioxide (CO2) off-gasses and leaves the water; that, in turn, raises the pH (but not alkalinity). You can learn more about dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid in water) here: blog.orendatech.com/what-is-alkalinity
In other words, because of the aeration, you are fighting an uphill battle because the pH will naturally rise in a hot tub. One way to counteract it would be to inject CO2 back into the water, but this may be cumbersome. There may be spa products we are unaware of that allow for lowering alkalinity without lowering pH. We just don't know of any. Perhaps look into raising your calcium hardness in lieu of higher alkalinity, and use acid to lower both pH and alkalinity. Our calculator app can help you dose it properly while always maintaining LSI water balance: www.orendatech.com/pool-dosing-calculator/
Thanks so much for the great question!
My experience (as a dude who sees this problem quite often) in our store is that the best way to handle this is to lower your alkalinity and re-test your water. Now you add either pH+ or alkalinity increaser depending on the test results. Usually, alka+ will work just fine.
I also notice that pH in hot tubs using chlorine or bromine eventually drops because of the acidity in those stabilized products. Never heard of the air bubblers increasing pH... interesting!
@@OrendaTechnologies No ....lol...not at all..the introduction of air to water is well ongoing infinitely...you will never introduce carbon dioxide into a jacuzzi...holy crap this is the most fictional hogwash ive ever heard...pH may rise due to pollutants skin oils hair oils food drinks or urine or feces or organic things like grass tree or leaf clippings bugs insects etc..THAT IS what raises your pH...alkalinity comes from your outside source when you use your jacuzzi spa you splash displace or remove bit by bit even natural evaporation or just plain usage...your spa will automatically refill water from your main water line.,this is city water and is usually pretty high in alkalinity...and there mystery solved!
Tamara Kennedy fictional hogwash? Great phrase, but it is not applicable to CO2 and pH. The loss of CO2 does in fact raise pH, and injecting CO2 back in the water does in fact lower pH. Here’s one of many sources online showing why: www.soest.hawaii.edu/oceanography/courses/OCN623/Spring2013/CO2_Alk_pH_2013_handouts31.pdf
Is KH total alkalinity in pool strips?
The KH total alkalinity? What do you mean by KH?
What are your thoughts on “pooling” Muriatic acid with pump off to greatly reduce alkalinity without effecting pH much? Apparently, walking around pool pouring it in and switching pump will circulate chemicals but also adds oxygen which significantly amplifies the effects on muriatic acid on pH.
They say if you want to lower TA by a wide margin, minimise water movement by turning off the pump and any water features etc. They DO say this is an opinion, and not a hard fact. Is this a myth? Or is there some truth to this? Do you have any links or in depth information, proof/testing the two methods? I can’t find much info and would really like the truth on this. Thanks!
"Pooling" muriatic acid is worse than simply column pouring. Here's an article with underwater photos of acid with dye in it. It drops to the bottom of the pool, etches the surface like crazy, which offsets the pH.
blog.orendatech.com/how-to-add-acid-to-a-swimming-pool
So it only appears to lower alkalinty more than pH, but that's at the expense of your plaster. And adding oxygen does not amplify the pH impact of muriatic acid, though adding CO2 would.
So yes, it is a myth. Alkalinity correction is linear, no matter how you add the acid. You still get the exact same amount of acid in with dilution, and it will neutralize the exact same amount of alkalinity no matter how you add it.
Orenda Technologies Thanks for clearing this up. I don’t why some people in the pool trade and regular folk preach this method 🤷♂️
Orenda Technologies Is chlorine lock also a myth? For example when Cyanuric acid is too high? Thanks
“Chlorine lock” is sort of a myth, but CYA really does slow chlorine dramatically. As long as you have a decent FC:CYA ratio, you’ll avoid the “lock”, which is technically known as over-stabilization.
How can I measure the PH of a dry powder ? Let’s say bentonite , if I add 7ph distilled water that has 0ph or neutral , does that change the PH of the powder since it is in the same scale ?
That's a great question, and we do not know the answer. The way we check the pH of powders is by reading their SDS (safety data sheet). Theoretically, using 7.0 pH distilled water should not change the pH of the powder and should be accurate...but we do not know. Sorry!
A powder doesn't have a pH, since there are no free ions until they in solution. You need to dissolve ionic bonds in a polar solvent (usually water, but not always) to allow for free protons (H+ or hydonium, which is H30+)
this also means the volume of water matters, since what has pH is the solution. example: 1 teaspoon of baking soda in a small glass of water will move pH quickly, but adding same amount to a bathtub would be unnoticeable. When they talk about pH of a compound, they have to state a molarity to explain the concentration of the solution.
Volume is so low i have my tablet on highest setting...hellp ihave low pH 7.5 but alkalinity is 19 drops to neutralize the purple water in test kit..arrgh
Are you saying your alkalinity is very high? We are not familiar with purple water for an alkalinity test... email eric@orendatech.com for specific questions and discussion about your issue. Thanks!
Trying to get my alkalinity down from 240 to 100. Please help!! I need to know Product and how much. First time pool owner. I have a 3300 gl pool.
Hi Lynette. We assume you mean 33,000 gallons (not 3300), and it’s an easy calculation. You can use our free app (called “Orenda”) and adjust the Alkalinity on the left side to 240. Instead of trying to knock out that 140 ppm of Alkalinity at once, we recommend going in 30-40 ppm increments. So go from 240 down to 200, then 160, then 120, then 100, etc. give it a few days between treatments.
Very helpful. thank you!
Thank you for watching!
Why is my pH high and alkalinity low???
Not sure, what’s your other chemistry?
Nice Explanation
Thank you for watching!
perfect explenation
Yes. Helpful. Thanks 👍
Thank you for watching!
Bro thank you!
... and now I can sound like I know what I am talking about when I am training the new apprentices at the power plant. LOL
Hey, fake it ‘til you make it.
Since Muriatic acid can lower both total Alkalinity and pH, Alkalinity and pH are the same thing. Your explanation brings in a lot of irrelevant concepts such as scale, but in essence I don't hear any difference.
They’re not the same thing, though many people do confuse the two (ourselves included, for many years, which is why we made this video to explain). But saying they’re the same because acid reduces both of them is like saying homes and trees are the same thing because forest fires can burn them both down.
A better explanation would be in episodes 1, 2 and 3 of our Rule Your Pool podcast, if you’re interested.
I get baffled when when my PH is in the the 8 range...and the alkaline is at 60 ppm...
It will naturally rise up to 8.1 or so at 60 TA, due to CO2 loss. Look up “Henry’s Law” or “Contain pH” in our website or RUclips channel to learn why.
Helps👍🏻
Thanks
Ionized water is neutralized by gastric acids in the stomach and cannot help to alkalize the body.
Probably true... thats why we stick to pool chemistry. But those bottled water companies sure do well with the alkaline marketing.
If this concept in Aquaculture ponds, it will be more complex.
Agreed.
Yeah perfect
now i know..tanx
Thanks for watching!
Oof, the lighting in this video is making the speaker's left pupil constrict.
Dee Doubs he has behaved like Igor from Young Frankenstein ever since...
That didn't help me understand anything
Sorry to hear that. Have you read the articles on our blog? They’re linked in the description. Maybe they’ll help more.
Never mind, I got it the second time 😅
Yeah, I just feel more dumb. 😢
I'm now more confused.
Sorry.
You use PH and alkalinity as synonyms in your video, but then say they are different? @@OrendaTechnologies
Nope it didn't. The video ended abruptly in a manner dat doesn't do justice to the topic at all.
So no
It wasn't helpful at all