This series on the kick serve is the most helpful discussions on this topic on YT. The in depth demonstration is really helpful. I went to the court today and made some progress, but I’m realizing how much trouble I’m having staying sideways. I think I have the toss close but It just doesn’t make sense to not swing forward. It’s such a built-up reflex to try to swing through the ball. I’m not even sure how to swing at it if I’m not swing through it, and it’s not a slice. I end up getting some spin on the ball, but it’s not really kicking.
Thank you my friend. I would need to see the video to help more. I can tell you that staying sideways is really hard. Most people open up too soon. Most people think they are closed but then open as the start to accelerate upwards. That’s why it’s important to force your body closed and use video to check the alignment of the shoulders as you accelerate. I hope you get it soon! Keep working. Kick serve is the hardest shot in tennis to learn. Send me the video and I can offer some quick pointers.
@ I’m going to try some of these changes this week and see where things are at. If I can make sense of it, I’ll try to video some angles and send it over! Thanks
Thanks. I risked being repetitive in the video but in my coaching I have seen so many players not staying sideways long enough I feel it’s so important. The key is to stay sideways THROUGH the impact. Most people try to stay sideways but open up when accelerating to impact. They open up just before the hit.
I really needed this video. The information is very consise, easy to understand and learn. For some reason my kick serve is more like a slice than a kick. After reading some comments and watching the video I realized its probably because I open up my shoulders way to early and also I dont brush up on the ball, but rather downwards like a first serve. My toss is also really horrible. I either arch my back way too much to reach the ball or I just toss to the right.. I have just one question. Should I brush up on the ball AND finish on the left side of my body or the right? I see you finishing on the left but the swing path goes to the right, which im confused about.
You can send your video to my WhatsApp 914-462-2912 and I can take a look. It’s helps to see the serve on video. The swing path goes left to right and then back into the waist area. Although some pros do finish on the right side of their body. I do not agree with other online and real world coaches who teach following through to the back of your body on the right side to learn a kick. In my experience it’s not helpful and not important.
Opening up early and tossing right are the biggest reasons for slice and struggling with the kick. But there are likely other issues. It’s a very tough serve to learn. The most difficult in tennis. Don’t give up!
Hello my friend. Thank you. Yes-focus on the acceleration phase going up with more whip. Also use more extreme backhand grip. Also reach deeper down in the racquet drop phase. Those 3 things have helped me a lot.
That’s tricky to convey on video. I try to help my players FEEL the movement. 7 to 2 swing path left to right is key. There are some details about where to finish and “snap” outward. The racquet should arc left to right sharply and make the “dirty diaper” configuration that Jeff Salzenstein coined.
Hi do you hit ball straight with the face of the racquet under the left side of the ball (not the bottom I meant under ).. because you said and lot of people also say brush from left to right.. trying to understand when you strike the ball will the racquet face will be straight on the ball?thank you for the great videos
Thanks so much. Yes you brush from under the ball. You can visualize 7-2 o’clock as a reference. The racquet will not be straight up. It will be off to the side when brushing left to right. Sorry-maybe you can rephrase the question and I’ll do my best to answer.
Hi Chris. Thanks for this great video. I always pass by your academy on vacation, on the way to get sticky buns at Grandma Miller's. I work on my kick serve a lot since it's the best stroke in my 4.0 game. When practicing. I judge quality by bounce height versus features on the fence. I wish more of my serves bounced as high as my best ones (>6 feet), but most of them are only a bit over 5 feet. Do you have any rules of thumb to take that next step? I'd also love to know whether you think it makes sense to focus on increasing bounce height, instead of other possible goals (for instance trying to maximize pace while maintaining 5' bounce). Thanks for any thoughts you can share!
Bounce height over 5 to 6 ft is an excellent goal. Trying to get more angle and hitting the side fence or wall also a very good goal. Use a higher string to work on gaining more higher and big bounce. Don’t eat too many sticky buns and come train with me instead! Haha.
Thanks a lot Chris, I’ll give the high string a try. Have tried a lot of different “swing thoughts” but none consistently close the gap between my best and worst serves. Great to have an alternative way to approach it.
@mattbaumgart8651 Try not to overthink it. Keep simple checkpoints as I suggested and use a device like high strung. Send me your video to my WhatsApp 914-462-2912 if you are stuck and I may see something immediately.
That was great. Why is a twist so difficult? Is it because it requires a lot more ball speed or because it’s difficult to get the 7-2 swing path right? I always find the clock face description lacking because it’s 2D not 3D. If you are looking at a Penn ball, are you making contact at about the bottom of the P or even lower and/or to the left of the P ? Everybody shows kick serves from the ad side, showing it from the deuce side would be awesome as well Thanks a bunch!
Thank you. 7 to 2 is hard. Yes-you make a good point about 2D vs 3D. I actually guide my student’s hand and racquet through the dimensions and pathway which seems to help kinesthetically. The American twist is ultra difficult because most people don’t have the range of motion (ROM) to get it. That’s probably the main reason.
When my toss gets kinda’ erratic, I just end up slicing it, kicking it, or flattening it out and pounding it depending on whether it’s out to the right a bit, out to the left a bit, or just straight up overhead (maybe slightly to the right), respectively. Is that, like, … yunno’ … bad? 😂
Thanks. I would definitely try to make the toss more consistent to help. Send me your serve video and I can take a look. It’s hard to say without seeing the video. You can send to my WhatsApp at 914-462-2912. Thanks!
Fed was well-known for somehow using the same toss location for all serves (allowing him to effectively disguise what’s coming), but I see almost nothing out there about HOW exactly he managed to do that. If one were to just watch this and not be familiar with that unusual reality of Fed’s technique, the logical conclusion would be that EVERYONE uses different toss locations, depending in each case on what they’re trying to execute. Can you maybe explain what it is (was, I guess, now) that Fed did that allowed him to use the same toss location no matter which serve type he was executing? I’m thinking that it probably has to do with an ability on his part to move HIMSELF under the ball when kicking it rather than relying on a more-leftward ball placement, but I’m not even close to sure about that.
Thank you. This is a myth about Federer. John Yandell and his high speed video research has disproven this to my knowledge. Especially on clay, Roger would toss more left. Also Sampras same. It is possible to disguise the toss to be the same left and right, but the toss is always closer to the baseline than the first serve toss. But from the returners perspective they cannot tell the difference in this instance. It is possible to disguise the toss. Sometimes I work on that when kids are older. When they are young I’ve found that focusing on that aspect is counterproductive to the learning process
Most pros utilize different ball locations for the first and second serve. I believe high speed video study supports this. You are right that with a similar toss location subtle changes in the body position and the racquet path can alter the serve spin and type.
I would also add that for most players trying to chase this myth of the same toss has resulted in slow skill acquirement and a lot of frustration. It’s most more efficient to learn with different tosses.
For the basic level of serve progressions. Flat is usually taught first, then followed by Slice, and last topspin or kick. So Flat should be Flat, Slice should be Slice, Kick should be Kick. To start off with. But at the advanced level we do blend the serves elements more but usually the coach does that when you get up to advanced level.
@germanslice You can break the serves down like that and use that progression. However, most people want to learn a kick and the most common problem I see is that people slice their kicks and call it a kick.
@@ChrisLewit If its not being buggy whipped by the racquet and being just sliced usually weak slice which causes the ball to sit up in the court then the kick is not gonna be much bite all on the ball and just gonna die in little bounces so its not gonna move your opponents around much if the ball does not kick and have momentum.. . I thought the point of being a good server was to move your opponent away from the baseline instead of slamming everything up all deep hard back to him to the baseline which I see club rec guys doing most of the time and that's why the're stuck out there for 4-5 hours battling away with pushers in endless rallies while those who know how to serve finish their games in an hour or two.
@@ChrisLewit This is why I can't understand Club Rec Tennis. Many club rec guys just don't have good serves because they keep hitting them back up again into the wall. Which makes no sense to me. They say I'm serving great today, all my serves are all going in. But i just can't get it past this guy. The ball keeps coming back so I slam the ball more harder. He only takes a couple of steps to return back the ball, And start making mistakes and missing the lines and hand him the points.. Bad serving allows the pusher to return back the ball and stay stuck on the baseline.
Great video but lookimg at your videos in the past if you want more views, you need less words in the thumbnails. Too many words make it look bulky and unappealing to click on. Look at tennis channels who get lots of views and see their thumbnails. Great videos by the way 👍
Thanks very much. If you mean the extra hop in my left leg, that is a technique drill we are working on. Otherwise, the balance is correct. Or did you notice something else? Thanks.
@watcher687 Well it’s just a separate drill that we use a lot here. The extra hop can help players focus on the left leg landing strong and the hip extension and yes it is a way to check the sideways position too. When I serve at full speed in a match, the he extra double hop shouldn’t be there. The kick serves are performed at demonstration speed. You are right that the landing for pro servers is one solid one, not double hop If you are having trouble with the hip extension of the right leg, or want to focus on sideways landing, the double hip drill can help with that. I should make a video about it that drill. Good idea.
This series on the kick serve is the most helpful discussions on this topic on YT. The in depth demonstration is really helpful. I went to the court today and made some progress, but I’m realizing how much trouble I’m having staying sideways. I think I have the toss close but It just doesn’t make sense to not swing forward. It’s such a built-up reflex to try to swing through the ball. I’m not even sure how to swing at it if I’m not swing through it, and it’s not a slice. I end up getting some spin on the ball, but it’s not really kicking.
Thank you my friend. I would need to see the video to help more. I can tell you that staying sideways is really hard. Most people open up too soon. Most people think they are closed but then open as the start to accelerate upwards. That’s why it’s important to force your body closed and use video to check the alignment of the shoulders as you accelerate. I hope you get it soon! Keep working. Kick serve is the hardest shot in tennis to learn. Send me the video and I can offer some quick pointers.
@ I’m going to try some of these changes this week and see where things are at. If I can make sense of it, I’ll try to video some angles and send it over! Thanks
@mikechan231 ok my brother. Good luck!
Great tips and very helpful for me to realize why I'm always slicing my second serve instead of kicking it. Sideways
Thanks. I risked being repetitive in the video but in my coaching I have seen so many players not staying sideways long enough I feel it’s so important. The key is to stay sideways THROUGH the impact. Most people try to stay sideways but open up when accelerating to impact. They open up just before the hit.
Great information and fantastic format. Thank you for your efforts.
Thank you amigo
I really needed this video. The information is very consise, easy to understand and learn. For some reason my kick serve is more like a slice than a kick. After reading some comments and watching the video I realized its probably because I open up my shoulders way to early and also I dont brush up on the ball, but rather downwards like a first serve. My toss is also really horrible. I either arch my back way too much to reach the ball or I just toss to the right.. I have just one question. Should I brush up on the ball AND finish on the left side of my body or the right? I see you finishing on the left but the swing path goes to the right, which im confused about.
You can send your video to my WhatsApp 914-462-2912 and I can take a look. It’s helps to see the serve on video. The swing path goes left to right and then back into the waist area. Although some pros do finish on the right side of their body. I do not agree with other online and real world coaches who teach following through to the back of your body on the right side to learn a kick. In my experience it’s not helpful and not important.
Opening up early and tossing right are the biggest reasons for slice and struggling with the kick. But there are likely other issues. It’s a very tough serve to learn. The most difficult in tennis. Don’t give up!
@@ChrisLewit Thank you! Good luck on making content, hope you succeed.
@roddi6503 Thanks very much!
@@ChrisLewit Okay whenever I am able to film it I will definitely send it to you. Really appreciate the time you took to answer my comment 👍
Great video Chris. Super helpful when trying to develop and improve the 2nd serve. Thanks for posting
So glad you enjoyed it. Thanks a lot!
This video really awesome. Video quality very good- "I always learn something new from your channel-so valuable!" Good Luck to You
Thank you
You are a great coach thanks
Thanks!
Any tips on how to get the ball to go down in the court on the kick serve ? Thank you.
Hello my friend. Thank you. Yes-focus on the acceleration phase going up with more whip. Also use more extreme backhand grip. Also reach deeper down in the racquet drop phase. Those 3 things have helped me a lot.
@@ChrisLewit Thank you for the reply. I'll give it a try.
Ok my friend. Let me know how it goes
@TNToncourt ok good luck!
great stuff. I hope you are well
Thanks so much!
Any specific cues regarding swing path and the resulting follow thru that you might use to differentiate between regular top spin vs. a twist serve?
That’s tricky to convey on video. I try to help my players FEEL the movement. 7 to 2 swing path left to right is key. There are some details about where to finish and “snap” outward. The racquet should arc left to right sharply and make the “dirty diaper” configuration that Jeff Salzenstein coined.
Hi do you hit ball straight with the face of the racquet under the left side of the ball (not the bottom I meant under ).. because you said and lot of people also say brush from left to right.. trying to understand when you strike the ball will the racquet face will be straight on the ball?thank you for the great videos
Thanks so much. Yes you brush from under the ball. You can visualize 7-2 o’clock as a reference. The racquet will not be straight up. It will be off to the side when brushing left to right. Sorry-maybe you can rephrase the question and I’ll do my best to answer.
Hi Chris. Thanks for this great video. I always pass by your academy on vacation, on the way to get sticky buns at Grandma Miller's.
I work on my kick serve a lot since it's the best stroke in my 4.0 game. When practicing. I judge quality by bounce height versus features on the fence. I wish more of my serves bounced as high as my best ones (>6 feet), but most of them are only a bit over 5 feet. Do you have any rules of thumb to take that next step?
I'd also love to know whether you think it makes sense to focus on increasing bounce height, instead of other possible goals (for instance trying to maximize pace while maintaining 5' bounce).
Thanks for any thoughts you can share!
Bounce height over 5 to 6 ft is an excellent goal. Trying to get more angle and hitting the side fence or wall also a very good goal. Use a higher string to work on gaining more higher and big bounce.
Don’t eat too many sticky buns and come train with me instead! Haha.
Height is more important than pace but you can work on increasing both at same time. Best way is with the high string device.
Thanks a lot Chris, I’ll give the high string a try. Have tried a lot of different “swing thoughts” but none consistently close the gap between my best and worst serves. Great to have an alternative way to approach it.
@mattbaumgart8651 Try not to overthink it. Keep simple checkpoints as I suggested and use a device like high strung. Send me your video to my WhatsApp 914-462-2912 if you are stuck and I may see something immediately.
That was great. Why is a twist so difficult? Is it because it requires a lot more ball speed or because it’s difficult to get the 7-2 swing path right?
I always find the clock face description lacking because it’s 2D not 3D. If you are looking at a Penn ball, are you making contact at about the bottom of the P or even lower and/or to the left of the P ?
Everybody shows kick serves from the ad side, showing it from the deuce side would be awesome as well
Thanks a bunch!
Thank you. 7 to 2 is hard. Yes-you make a good point about 2D vs 3D. I actually guide my student’s hand and racquet through the dimensions and pathway which seems to help kinesthetically. The American twist is ultra difficult because most people don’t have the range of motion (ROM) to get it. That’s probably the main reason.
When my toss gets kinda’ erratic, I just end up slicing it, kicking it, or flattening it out and pounding it depending on whether it’s out to the right a bit, out to the left a bit, or just straight up overhead (maybe slightly to the right), respectively. Is that, like, … yunno’ … bad? 😂
Thanks. I would definitely try to make the toss more consistent to help. Send me your serve video and I can take a look. It’s hard to say without seeing the video. You can send to my WhatsApp at 914-462-2912. Thanks!
Great video, yeah copyright can be really annoying, especially with music that should be okay
Yeah it was music on my editing app that I play for!! Crazy
Fed was well-known for somehow using the same toss location for all serves (allowing him to effectively disguise what’s coming), but I see almost nothing out there about HOW exactly he managed to do that. If one were to just watch this and not be familiar with that unusual reality of Fed’s technique, the logical conclusion would be that EVERYONE uses different toss locations, depending in each case on what they’re trying to execute. Can you maybe explain what it is (was, I guess, now) that Fed did that allowed him to use the same toss location no matter which serve type he was executing? I’m thinking that it probably has to do with an ability on his part to move HIMSELF under the ball when kicking it rather than relying on a more-leftward ball placement, but I’m not even close to sure about that.
Thank you. This is a myth about Federer. John Yandell and his high speed video research has disproven this to my knowledge. Especially on clay, Roger would toss more left. Also Sampras same. It is possible to disguise the toss to be the same left and right, but the toss is always closer to the baseline than the first serve toss. But from the returners perspective they cannot tell the difference in this instance. It is possible to disguise the toss. Sometimes I work on that when kids are older. When they are young I’ve found that focusing on that aspect is counterproductive to the learning process
Most pros utilize different ball locations for the first and second serve. I believe high speed video study supports this. You are right that with a similar toss location subtle changes in the body position and the racquet path can alter the serve spin and type.
I would also add that for most players trying to chase this myth of the same toss has resulted in slow skill acquirement and a lot of frustration. It’s most more efficient to learn with different tosses.
@@ChrisLewit Wow. Very surprising, but also very illuminating. Who knew? Thanks, Chris. Really appreciate this.
@gydscutroo9973 thank you amigo
Let me know any questions!and again sorry for having to repost
Love the spanish flag in the back and that shirt too hahahahah viva españita
Vamos!
Let me know any technique questions and I will answer them thanks!
For the basic level of serve progressions. Flat is usually taught first, then followed by Slice, and last topspin or kick. So Flat should be Flat, Slice should be Slice, Kick should be Kick. To start off with. But at the advanced level we do blend the serves elements more but usually the coach does that when you get up to advanced level.
@germanslice You can break the serves down like that and use that progression. However, most people want to learn a kick and the most common problem I see is that people slice their kicks and call it a kick.
@@ChrisLewit If its not being buggy whipped by the racquet and being just sliced usually weak slice which causes the ball to sit up in the court then the kick is not gonna be much bite all on the ball and just gonna die in little bounces so its not gonna move your opponents around much if the ball does not kick and have momentum..
.
I thought the point of being a good server was to move your opponent away from the baseline instead of slamming everything up all deep hard back to him to the baseline which I see club rec guys doing most of the time and that's why the're stuck out there for 4-5 hours battling away with pushers in endless rallies while those who know how to serve finish their games in an hour or two.
@germanslice True. Agree with you
@@ChrisLewit This is why I can't understand Club Rec Tennis. Many club rec guys just don't have good serves because they keep hitting them back up again into the wall. Which makes no sense to me.
They say I'm serving great today, all my serves are all going in. But i just can't get it past this guy. The ball keeps coming back so I slam the ball more harder. He only takes a couple of steps to return back the ball, And start making mistakes and missing the lines and hand him the points..
Bad serving allows the pusher to return back the ball and stay stuck on the baseline.
Great video but lookimg at your videos in the past if you want more views, you need less words in the thumbnails. Too many words make it look bulky and unappealing to click on. Look at tennis channels who get lots of views and see their thumbnails. Great videos by the way 👍
Agree completely and we are working to change that aspect for sure.
Everything you say makes sense but I’m a bit surprised by you hardly maintaining your balance after the serve.🤔 That doesn’t look quite right to me.
Thanks very much. If you mean the extra hop in my left leg, that is a technique drill we are working on. Otherwise, the balance is correct. Or did you notice something else? Thanks.
@
Oh ok. Didn’t know it was part of the ‘staying sideways’ demonstration. Got it. Thanks.
@watcher687 Well it’s just a separate drill that we use a lot here. The extra hop can help players focus on the left leg landing strong and the hip extension and yes it is a way to check the sideways position too. When I serve at full speed in a match, the he extra double hop shouldn’t be there. The kick serves are performed at demonstration speed. You are right that the landing for pro servers is one solid one, not double hop
If you are having trouble with the hip extension of the right leg, or want to focus on sideways landing, the double hip drill can help with that. I should make a video about it that drill. Good idea.
@@ChrisLewití ku mu ku
Just terrible. No balance.
Thanks for this. What could be better in the balance?
Thank you sir. I appreciate your response. I sent a M A I L. Please check.
Thanks