As an old Electrical Engineer myself I like the idea of copper busbars but I wouldn't run them both in the same channel, the possibilities of moisture or even condensation inside the insulation on a boat is high and may lead to arcing ! 50kw is no joke even at 48v and must be given every consideration, if it was in a factory or distribution system it would have to have separate insulation and a good air gap ! I don't think you want the channel sealed either because you'll need to be able to inspect the connections so it may be necessary to leave some holes for drainage in case water gets in.
@@RJMSINCR Wiring for boats has to be up to certain standards which I'm sure Brian is fully aware of but this does seem to be a bit of an oversight on his part, I may be wrong because it is unfamiliar territory but I would err on the side of caution when dealing with so much power.
I‘m an EE since 40 years and I was working with bus bars. Please take the added contact resistance in account if you are using splices and especially on your stack‘s. We put always crease between the contacting areas. It’s not a yoke. Not to insulate but to enhance the conductivity between pressed conducting areas and not to get corrosion in between. Please look for specific literature . It is named conductiv grease
Just came to add the same information I used to install high voltage bus bars in hospitals. Wish I could remember the name of that conductive Grease we used at every connection. It was to promote conductivity and stop corrosion. The old rememory ain't what it used to be. Lmao 🤣
i was thinking the same thing. Plates are never 100% flat. So effectively reducing the surface area. Although the flat bit has much more area than then cross section (if that makes sense). The corrosion might create a serious issue.
Coming out of the power generation industry we used a hollow buss system because of the increased surface area and since curent flows on the surface of the buss there was less heat build up. Also, we used chilled air to remove the heat and keep the resistance from increasing. I sure hope this works well for you. Also I aggree that I would not run the + and - bus in the same channel since you could experience arcing when you start puching higher amount of current accross the buss. Good luck and God bless
Current tends to the surface of the conductor (skin effect) only on AC, on DC this doesnt happen, so it wil distribute evenly across the conductor cross-section.
another retired engineer. I calculated with CTE of 16.4 micron/meter/degree C for copper would yield an expansion of. .387 mm/degree C in a length of 23 meters, or about 15 mm with a delta C of 40 degrees. Need to have a flexible join somewhere.
As an electrician and a boater, the bus bars need to be installed with standoff insulators, and the bars should be in separate channels. I would also use coated bars, the danger of something conductive shorting them out is too great. Best of luck.
…just one thought - is negative line needed? This is a metal boat - Can the minus be extremely well terminated in battery compartment to dry massive body part. Like a car starter that takes hundreds of amps from the engine body which is terminated to car body.
Brian. Get some advice from a maritime electrical engineer, there are risks here (moisture ingress, shorting, bolted method of jointing causing heat, movement, electrolysis). I’m an ex marine engineer and to be honest I’m not happy that this is a safe design for a marine environment, such high currents can be dangerous in the event of failure and your conduits are effectively inaccessible. I’m also not sure Insurers would accept this unless it was certified and tested.
Brian, Dave Mc, ex MarE 1 here. I’m adding a further comment because I am concerned. I know you’ve put time and cost into this and you yourself are an electrical engineer, however I really do think you need to get the advice of a marine electrical design engineer or company. I’ve looked back at UK DOE Marine Electrical Regs (which are basically the same as USA Regs) and I’m concerned that what you are doing doesn’t comply in terms of insulation, separation, jointing and integrity, also durability in the marine environment. It may even be a fire hazard, if not sooner, then later. Please take some advice before you proceed further. Sorry to be a downer, I love your channel and I’m concerned for you all.
They have used buss bars in the marine world for decades. As long as the connections are done properly and he has taken the added resistance into account, as well as expansion, there is no more danger here than cable.
@@Seansousa757. I understand your point but these are not bolted, braised or riveted connections, they are screwed, thus compromisable by age, vibration etc. Insulation by way of loose flat grp plate between bars is not integral, it’s incomplete and open to compromise by water and dust. Also thermal expansion/contraction is not accounted for. The entire conduit is also open to compromise by water, particularly in its bilge location. These are all regulated matters that would not comply.
I am so impressed with all the qualified remarks being given to Brian. It is really cool and very thoughtful and helpful information to take into consideration for the safety of his family, everyone.👍💯🤔🏆
I manage buildings that use busbars exclusively and you have to think of 3 things. The insulation between the busbars have to be extremely well made when you are running that high of a load. the connection points between 2 bars have to be milled as a bar will not be flat, and with that load you will have a lot of heat if you don't have a 100% good connection. And 3rd and last that i have not seen anyone talk about think of how much the bar will expand and shrink with heat. a long straight bar will expand much when it gets warm and that will compromise the connections.
A lot of really good comments here by electrical engineers - I'm sure Brian will take them seriously. I'm also a EE, also with ME & thermal experience. Might want to also consider that the fiberglass housing is a thermal insulator. If you have 3% loss in the bus bars and are transferring 50 kW, that means 1500W of heat being generated. With that inside a thermally isolated chamber things will get hot. Fortunately that's distributed over a long distance, but is it negligible?
@@stephenwilliams4722I'm an engineer working in DC power. 48V is much safer. You can touch live 48VDC (not that you should), and its probably fine. 400V is a different story
I think you need to rethink your voltage. At 400v your whole system only needs 125 amps witch is much easier to deal with. No buss bar needed. This system you built will be impossible to inspect and repair. Since your new to electrical engineering using prebuilt parts will make the system much safer. Take a look at your blocks that you built to go from one tray to the other. Each connection you made adds resistance and a failure point, You just built a small heater, what you should have done is bent the buss bar to the shape you need. I am also very worried about the the bars being so close with no air gap. This is both a heat and an arc flash issue. If salt water ever gets in your going to have an instant 50kw welders until your fuses blow. Once that happens you have no way to repair it. A better option is to change voltage then put in regular water tight conduit and pull normal wires that have no junctions under your deck. The get wires rated for water and to be in a conduit together. I love your work and want you to be successful.
I agree. That seems like way too much continuous current going to your motors. Electric cars putting out 200 hp don’t use bus bars. Seems like you’re way over engineering this with many opportunities for failure.
Looks awesome Brian. Are you worried about the chafing of the aluminum holes on the fiberglass channel? With all the movement that boat is gonna be doing, I'm worried about the aluminum chewing into that fiberglass and grounding that out. Food for thought.
Regarding the Busbars: many electricians already said their concerns: - putting them in same enclosure - not using conductivity grease between plate connections - not using copper rivets / using brass instead of pure copper screws - calculating dimensions only for standard ambient temp instead of critical temp (you are in the warm regions often so calculate for 40°+ celsius - using only adhesive to close the glassfibre enclosure BUT ALSO - there is also a mechanical point : Please check with your Naval engineer what the maximal deflection of your boat will be . Calculate the work hardening of your copper bus bars after some years of deflection cycles. I think it will be under the aluminum values, but i am not sure. Even small deflections over millions of cycles will harden the copper and it will at least crack, this will lead to high resistance and if big enough to a fiery ending. That is why in most applications even with small possibility of cable (busbar) movement one would use fine-core flexible cables instead of wire. Possible mitigation: Install measuring cables between all 3 endings of the busbars, use an automatic logging device which can log volts amperes and resistance. You could measure between +and - ends of the bus bars, but you then would not know which one is the problem. That is why you need separate measuring cables.
With all the constant churning of the ocean, and the slamming on the boat, you should run some rubber edging around those cut holes or they will act like knife blades. wherever a conduit/pipe goes through a cut hole put some rubber U trim/edging. Even that steering column will be slamming up and down with the waves.
Brian take some time to watch arcflash videos. If copper sublimates as in an arcflash event. A 1 inch cube of copper expands 67,000 times and burns hotter than the surface of the sun. I dont want to scare you but this is scary stuff! I encourage you to consult a maritime EE. This is not the place to save money electrical safety is paramount.
Seriously, all these safety concerns and from what I understood they are saving mere 4k USD over the regular cabling, while adding a lot of complexity and future maintenance issues. K.I.S.S. is the way to go, hacking around 40kW electrical installation is not.
I love you guys, so this comes from the bottom of my heart. As an Electrical engineer within the offshore industry I watched the busbar installation with a high degree of concern. You need to consult a certified electrician/ engineer with specialty in marine installations and get professional advice. There are so many safety concerns, that you have not taken into account, that I do not know where to start 😅 Please stop and rethink this setup before continuing, as this could literally burn down your beautiful new catamaran/ home 🫶🏼 My warmest regards Jesper (Denmark)
I agree also that placing both buss bars inside the same trough is only asking for trouble in a wet moveable environment! It's only a matter of WHEN water or condensation will fill your trough and completely melt down your buss bars and electrical system. Might want to reconsider or investigate a different way to independently insulate buss bars in a wet metallic environment.😢😢
After thinking about the critical systems aspect of this.... I think i would run redundant lines to left and right engines. This would in theory half the amperage needed in each line, and might allow you to use cable rather than a bus bar. But even if you still use a bus bar, you could use a smaller one, that could be one continuous bar mounted vertically and bent to left and right, rather than needing a bolted/braised T-junction. And as a critical system, even if one bus shorted and failed, you would still have power to at least one engine.
Im not an electrician nor an engineer, but with that being said - Purely from a maintenance perspective I would have some concerns, the main one being that the bus bars are essentially hard-fixed into the hull, meaning: if something goes wrong you need to cut the hull wide open to get to the issue, and if the bus needs replacing you'll need a full refit. Cables can be fed in and fed out, like a wiring loom in a car, but when the wiring loom is part of the chassis that becomes almost impossible without taking the car apart. That being said, im interested to see how this turn out in the future!
I don’t have any electrical experience but I had the same thought about this being a maintenance nightmare of something breaks. Sure hope he does some extensive testing before sealing things up.
Dirk here from Germany. Long time lurker, finally hit the notification bell. I hope, my English is good enough you can understand the concerns I have? Be very carefull!!!! I agree with Ian-C.01>>> I am electrician as well. 1000 Amp DC/ 48V ain't no joke. You running +/ - in the same duct only with an layer of 8 mm insulation??? I hope I get it correct, the 8mm insulation layer has no contact to the 2 side walls of the fiber glas duct, and will not be glued to them correct? So you still doesnt have a fully concealed Plus duct and fully concealed Minus duct, correct? You are underestimate the humidity and moisture,& the twist of the whole ship structre. I have seen Master electrical cabinets for big bank buildings here in Germany for 400V AC 1000A with even smaller copper busbars as those ones on your ship, The Bang I heard 2 level above the basement was enourmous during 1st time switch on the system. The cabinet cover had a hole 30x30 cm only because 1 copper busbar ( 1 phase of 3) hat not the correct air gap safety distance to the cabinet grounded sidewall on a foggy moisterus day decades ago. Dont get me wrong, I dont want to schoolmaster you or lecturing you,I am no ship builder electrician after all, but I would consult a electical engineer in Aussi Land, who's specialized in electric installation in ship/ vessel power distribution systems. Personally I would run them ( +/-) separate as long as I can,concealed from each other, and would only join them only in the Machine compartment. Run them ( +/-) together as short you can effort for safety. Have you thought about the master kill switch, which allows you to disconnect the battery power from the busbars in case of problems? This switch I would use remotly controlled, not entering the batterie compartment or the machine compartment for operation. A switch often used in transformer stations on land on medium- high voltage systems all above 1000V AC. Nevertheless, I love your channel. cant wait week by week on the new episode.
I would consider brazing the bars together to eliminate any risk of the bolts loosening over time and requiring service. With the bars on top of each other in a single channel you will never be able to get to the lower positive bus bar to service it if needed. Brazing them together will also help prevent corrosion.
Brian, I don't know how relevant this is, but might be worth checking in with 'Gone With The Wynns'. I think they have some kind of electric hybrid motor propulsion system also and their latest video on their YT channel showed a significant battery/energy management failure.
Brian is a pretty smart guy. While his plan is ingenious and him being an electrical engineer says a lot, I would have probably run separate channels for each busbar just to be safe. I suspect there will be flexing/movement on a boat so I prefer the separation of the two conductors.
Not just boat flexing, but daily/hourly flexing as the heat dissipates from the two bars at a slower rate on the lower bus than the top. Which means the bars will be constantly sliding against the insulation between them. Like 5-10mm of movment each cycle. 😢 I worry this will be an issue in a year or two, with no way to monitor and inspect this condition.
Brian, as an electrician, I am very impressed with your ability and ingenuity and skill to come up with this solution and set it up, amazing job buddy👍👍❤️❤️🇮🇪🇮🇪
I can only think of one bad thing to say about this episode and that is we have to wait another week for another. I'm 100% invested in watching these episodes ASAP :)
8:17 I can see how this will work for insulating it electrically, but what about the magnetic field shielding? Even less than 1kA under your floor may end up messing up with the circuits or devices you will be running across the hull. Those weird issues will drive you mad and can potentially be hazardous when boat control gets impacted.
Having dealt with many low voltage high current bus bar systems I applaud your choice for Delos 2. I'm curious about your choice of running positive power on the bottom bus bar & negative power on the top within the fiberglass channel. Assuming the motor/generator/battery system utilizes negative ground like most conveyance electrical systems, what happens if the aluminum spars grind through the fiberglass channel due to boat motion, temperature gradients or flexing of the hull? Is the possibility of breeching the fiberglass channel a non-issue or will the system be positive rather than negative ground? More ?? for the drive system video...
E E here. You've got a low voltage Tesla here. They have extraordinary fault protection including pyrotechnic fuses that quench DARPA type metal dust explosions. This is very high level EE design.
Incredible work on the bars Brian ... and Awesome to have people supporting you along the way even just to voice and motivate you !!! Well done Kaza also ... hope the Nugs gets through the sickness quick ! Thank you so much every week for the videos (to the whole team!) ... such an inspiration. xx
See. That is what I was talking about in your build series. Brand new idea for me at least replacing a ton of cabling that would have needed 30 splices, you came away with 4. Excellent stuff Brian and Kazza. Lovei
Innovative design. I'm sure the team has considered this but, I hope the bus bar splices maintain their integrity in the dynamic environment of a vessel and moisture in the conduit is not a problem. Perhaps I missed when this was addressed.
Not to forget expansion and contraction between dissimilar materials. I realize the difficulties of 'doing everything twice' but I'm thinking two separate ducts would have been much, much safer. Not that I'm an expert, but I was thinking of encapsulating the two layers with a vinylester resin (or similar?), pouring and sealing one conductor in the bottom of the tray, adding a thin, solid insulator sheet, pour another layer, then finishing by pouring a second, capping vinylester layer.
There's something you should know. He's overdoing it a bit. Not unlike in EV's, electric ships motors need to be calculated well above their norm use power consumption in order to last. As a consequence, he's got way more power than he'll ever need, but the bus bars are able to deal with that peak power anyway. The whole track is dry above the water line, so seawater ingress is unlikely to ever become a problem.
@Berend-ov8of in a marine environment, salt is in the air and condensation . The insulation he is building is not sufficient for a salt marine environment.
@@bamaman6297 I'm not so sure of that. I lived and worked on a sailing vessel myself for a few years when I was younger, and I noticed that impact of water or salt in the air depends to a considerable extend on how exposed the material is, ranging from corrosion happening so fast you can almost see it happen, to parts or compartments the air had no noticeable access to, or influence on. Corrosion inside electronic equipment for instance. You would expect to see at least some damage, but even after years of being used, I opened it up and there was nothing. Not even a little. So it varies. I don't expect these bus bars to turn into a corroded mess any time soon. They're relatively well tucked in. Waxing them might have been a good idea. Hot wax and a flame, so it creeps into every corner. But it'll hold.
I am guessing a stretch of 15m (x2) and find that the voltage drop is approximately 1.V (or 2%), and the power loss is approximately 1kW for a 50kw nomina load. As a ship electrification, i have never seen Cu bars encapsulated.. cresttive, but...questioning that it may be an idea to ensure airing of the 1kw of heat. (Ie. 2 separate trays installing the bars on isolators allowing air circulation). Edit: in operation you will need access to every screw and joint for maintenance purpose. / Amazing project, wish you success.
I'm on the side it's a very bad idea. Back in the late 60s, I'm the guy who changed hot plants to cold plants. Aka nukler power plants. The blow off from bus bars was amazing. In 1976 1977, we designed and put up a whole new power grid for all 48 lower states in 18 months. I was in charge of 30.000 engineering guys war vets army core ECT. ( My back history ).. your right the heat,. The chance of arking, salt water will find it's way into the Chanel. I also wish them good luck..
I started watching SV Delos back in 2020. I love the show. Now you blessed me with building a boat. Great job team Delos. Thank you for all the videos.
Brilliant solution Brian! 💪Respect.....not only for this solution to the hight difference of the bus bars, but for years of following your adventures, challenges and solutions created....just to mention a few 😉❤
I'm not an engineer, but I work in industrial power supply. Orienting the bars face to face, even with insulation, presents an opportunity for arc flash. It's much safer to put the bars edge to edge. Check out UL standard 891 for some suggestions on using copper bus.
I'm pleasantly surprised by this episode. I have a background in electrical design but my career path took me down the route of autonomous vehicles. This was so refreshing and fun to watch.
I think you will be pleased with your use of Copper busbars for all the reasons you shared. after 37 years of working around power plants at the Phone Company with much larger 48V DC power plant bus bars hopefully, you can seal them well to be around Salt Water. lots of good wishes and safe sailing once you Delo;s 2.0 in the water.
I don't get it... Why use 48V and 1000 Amps instead of using 2 x 25kW inverters (380/400V, 3 phases AC), mounted near the battery compartment and use smaller size wires to get to the motors (insulated, marine-grade). I know adding inverters is like adding other points of failure but the way that busbar is connected doesn't inspire much confidence. And, about the bus-bars... Why use "stacking" and have a lot of contact-resistances (that cand be subject to problems) instead of just bending a portion of a bus-bar (in a U or S-like shape to change the level) and have only 2 contacts ? Before you start using the bus-bar use a milli-ohm meter and measure each bus-bars resistance: from one end to the other, from the split-join to each end; and write the values down somewhere. In case you'll have doubs or problems you can use the same meter and test the bus-bar again and you'll know if there are problems with it ;)
Adding extra inverter is not another point of failure here - quite the opposite, it's added redundancy! If one fails, you still have another engine and inverter ready to work with the other engine AND all the electric circuitry onboard. They are typically paired to share the load, so failover should happen automatically should one fail.
I'm not an EE, but I've got concerns about how close your bars are (even with insulation) and those splices. Without a very solid electrical connection between the bars, most of the current is going to be flowing through the screws holding things together. I definitely feel like, while the bus bar was a good idea to reduce weight and expense, probably should have been handled much earlier in planning, and involved an EE to ensure it was done properly.
Bus bar is the only way to go! love to see this type of stuff! Also im in electrical sales and when you were talking about wires i was yelling bus bar! LOL
Brian, why did you put the batteries so far forward? Moving the batteries closer to the engines would also reduce the voltage drop. Do they make a narrower fiber channel? I would add two channels, each in a different mouse hole, rather than trying to put both bus bars in one channel! How do you plan to cool and ventilate the bus bars? I think it's important to cool and reduce condensation on the bus bars and insulation in your 2 bars in one channel design. Please tell me you've planned a way to be able to service and replace those long stiff bus bars if they corroded over time, or need the separating insulation layer replaced.
I think narrower fiber channels would allow you to add rubber grommets in the beams, so that vibrations do not wear through the fiberglass over the years in the surf and waves! And using two channels would have given you a lot more room to adapt to the alignment difference near the salon, and inspect to splice points over time.
I am a little worried about your splices! Did you measure the resistance of your connection? I worry about the galvanic action of the M6 bolts going through the tin and copper. And they may vibrate loose over time without lock tight, inspecting those is going to be a PITA. For sure, make sure you have a hatch so you can monitor those bolts. That's also why I would have used two channels, as checking the bolts and splices with the bus bars stacked is going to be very hard. I think I would solder the splices, in addition to the bolts?
I would nearly suggest to pot the bus bars with epoxy into the channel. This long runs will chatter once the boats in the water, plus you really dont wanna allow it move with currents flowing trough bar. I have seen larger bus bars warp when currents go wrong (eg. surges and shorts).
Dear Brian. Did you derated busbars for heating, closed space and non ventilation? Since you choose 80x6mm I think that you didn't. Your bus bar will be overheated. Also when bus bar is dimensioned properly, it heats up to 65C. Additionaly I think that it is better to use heat shrinkable tubing, halogen free, than custom made insulation. Please recheck your calculation for current carrying capacity of bus bar.
Awesome, just awesome seeing the challenges and how we overcome these challenges. Totally nerding out at the thought process going into the build. Great video guys.
That's my question as well. Given the length of these bars, and seeing that they connect perpendicular to one another, I would expect significant movement in both the X and Y directions. If this had been cable, there would have been some loop or bend left in it to allow for the movement.
Interesting suggestions in here for Brian. I like the bus bar solution - the implementation seens logical but perhaps a few more safeguards are needed due to the marine environment and motion / stresses unique to a vessel. I think you're on the right track though by avoiding huge runs of cabling.
Having worked with bus bar on the utility scale... That stack connection is probably fine, but you can bend bus bar. There is also braided copper bus bar jumpers that are flexible. That probably the way I would have gone. But I've seen both work great.
Can I make a small suggestion for future adaptations and one consideration for the current setup? In future adaptation have the bars be side by side, that way it can be inspected. Could even run a clear (non-conductive) tube between them as an insulator but also able to fit an inspection camera in. Yes, it would have to be thicker and less wide to carry the same load and still fit. Just a thought. Love your ingenuity! With current setup make the bottom bar the negative so you have the ability to inspect the positive busbar. Or would the potential arc damage be more visible on the negative, 🤷! Which ever would show arc damage more put on top. again I absolutely love your ingenuity and innovations!
I can appreciate Brian enjoying having a shop to work in. As a transportation mechanic, having to work in all kinds of environments sucks. Especially on people movers( 🚌). Do sailing vessels have ECUs & ECMs that function like those in vehicles? Have never seen a dashboard like set up for trouble lights for system issues on a vessel. I'm just curious, a non sailor. Learning as I watch.😅 To avoid bird nesting wires, I suggest using Wire Loom & Wearher pack connectors.
Brian very inventive solution as per usual from you. People ask "I've never heard of Bus bars before" The most common usage of copper bus bars are inside a residential load center aka electrical panel. Behind the face plate and breaker switches of your home electrical panel are a positive and a negative copper bus bars. The breakers tie into the bus bars for power. NEVER ever remove the cover plate of an electrical panel. Licensed electrical contractor area ONLY. Brian is essentially building the same thing on a much much larger scale, really extremely inventive. However Brian I'm concerned about having the bus bars in such close proximity, one stacked on top of the other. Arcing between the two is a real concern the type of insulation used and testing, testing is key. Additionally arcing between the aluminum frame of the boat and the copper bus bars worries me. If it were to happen the whole frame would then become energized too. It's like when we see a home owner pass electrical cable through the metal distribution ductwork of a forced air heating and cooling system. An arc between the two will energize all of the metal ductwork. A huge fire risk and deathly shock risk to any human which is why it's against the building code. Once again great solution but as you know testing testing is required BEFORE the deck plate is welded in place..
kudo's to you brian! I'm a master electrician of 30+ years and love this! love this series you two! keep it up and lets keep grinding, but not that grinding lol
Commercial electrician here we call that open air bus. We normally use something called bus duct in build,Ings. Great work. One worry we always have with bus on construction projects is installing in dry building and letting know humidity ever get to the bus because it will deaf ruin it. Just saying great work and make sure u study humidity and protection. One more thing. Haveing them in same enclosure is fine we do that with three phases and a neutral at 480v.
This next month or two will be interesting. Looking forward to seeing how much progress Dan and Kurt make while you're away. Hope Nuggs is OK during your travels (flights especially) 👍👍🤞🤞
Hi Bryan, I have no electric background and hesitated to comment here, and it's probably to late anyway. Still worried though... You start with the assumption to bring 50KW of energy to the back in a single bus, but I would argue that you could have made the calculation for 2 separate 30KW line. This would be a more manageable 600 Amp rating that could be passed along 1500 kcmm cables. Expansive I agree, but easier to route, turn, isolate, waterproof and strand. I understand you have a electric background, but I would love that you take a specialist with you on this one. Wish you the best.
Went to comments to make my point - but it’s been said so many times 😄 only thing I would add is that you could fill the channel with transformer oil - but you need to consider access and thermal expansion - your 3% volt drop will be 1.5kW of heat in those bars!
The system also needs a way to break the current instantly in case of a short. This much power will turn your aluminum hull into molten metal and fire faster than you can react. Imo there is insufficient insulation around your buss bars and condensation will be a problem at some point. I do respect your right to do it any way you see fit though, it's your family and your boat. Best wishes.
Good Jobe !You and Kazza are 2 Warriors from Sea....Brian can open a Boat Shop to Boats Construcion !!!!! Hahaaaaaaaa... Now the Sea is small for this. Nave SV Dellos 2 !
Just a couple of thoughts as an Aussie Sparky, that I haven't seen mentioned already. Also read your an Electrical Engineer so you're probably onto it and it was missed from camera. 1. Ductor testing from one side of bar across the splice plate to other side of bar. Should be looking for low micro ohms. As mentioned elsewhere some dielectric grease also. 2. Quick orbital sand of all bars, majority of current is carried on surface of bar, so this removes any grease/impurities/etc and eliminates any potential hot spots. Keep up the great work.
This made me think. I made a few large busbars myself for our 1500 watt/12v battery bank and my biggest fear was lack of isolation, as that can totally ruin a boat. Hence they’re totally separated and waterproof. And I’d do the same here. I know it’s double the work but having total isolation would be my preferred solution. It adds the weight of extra polyester u profile but prevents 100% the spark risk and electric leak risk. If ever the boat floor gets soaked with water and water gets in between you have an enormous problem. a totally isolated system can be repaired but this.. if there water in those profiles you need to get everything out and totally dry it.. try that at sea. it’s probably still relatively easy to separate the positive/negative at this stage. As for insurance don’t be surprised if this is excluded from coverage. Just my five cents.
I was wondering how you were going to get the power to the engines. This is why I'm surprised that the battery's are not near the engines in the hulls. I know the Silent Yachts have them under the main salon a lot closer to the engines. When you're doing that kind of work, keeping the momentum moving forward, even through set backs, is important, so progress can be seen to keep from getting discouraged.
As i was watching this video and thinking this must be different for a boat (is it ?) but got more and more concerned. I was a construction manager in the US and built plenty of condo towers with bus ducts. We had one instance where the shaft the duct ran in got wet and the result was catastrophic. Pretty ugly actually. Concerned about this install in a boat hull environment being hot, maybe salty, humid and not to mention the movement issues also noted by others. Wouldn't hurt to get a third party expert second opinion on this design and install. I am sure you are a smart guy, i have been following your channel for years, recognize you are extremely clever. But with this being a life safety issue, you can never be too pragmatic. Great channel, awesome adventures and experiences. Love to the family and best regards 😊
I would run the +ve busbar in one channel and the -ve busbar in another. A bad connection on one of those fishplates on the lower busbar would be a nightmare to fix. It would also give you the ability to take power off the busbar anywhere along it's length at a later date with minimal fuss. The seperation by 300mm feels way safer instead of 8mm. This looks very complicated. A sea water leak into that stacked busbar will cause havoc with those joints
Sailing SV Lynx is doing a very similar thing with bus bars on his Cat build. He just moved his batteries a lot closer to the engines. You may not be able to do that for weight distribution. He’s having some issues with that.
Yes, fiberglass makes a good insulator, yet it is susceptible to moisture, I would suggest two insulators between positive and negative bars as well as paint the outside of the fiberglass with numerous coats of hard coat that is used on fiberglass boats to help cut down on blisters from moisture getting into the fiberglass. The more coats of hard coat the better, my rudder only had four coats on it and when pulled out had hundreds of blisters on it, so adjust as you see fit, it is your boat. Best of luck
Brian, I'm sure you are way ahead of us on this and you are far more experienced than I am - but I wonder if it's worthwhile to use a megger to do load testing and insulation testing on your electrical system so that you can sleep well at night knowing that it's robust and safe for your family! This is such a neat solution that you have engineered.
The problem with all these comments is, what you are seeing in this video is over 2 months old. He has already completed this I would think. Hopefully he got some professional advice as electricity in an aluminum boat is very dangerous.
hi been watching for years so happy for you guys i wondered if the electric motor could be used when sailing for regen similar to we sails new catamaran seems to be a very useful system on long passages thanks and good luck with the rest of the build guys
Well I got to add my 2 cts. I believe the idea is sound, at 48V the insulation is more than adequate, salt water is not an issue as the run is well above the water line on the bridge deck. If it gets salt water drenched here, that is the least of your worry. The bars are unconstrained so heating expansion shouldn't be an issue as the bars can move to accommodate the expansion. I would want to analyze the heat dissipation due to IR losses a little further. I dislike the bolted splices and they would be a pain to inspect and tighten the lower bar, the splices should be offset horizontally to allow access to the bottom bar. A better solution would have been to eliminate the long run splices by tig welding the bars lengths. At the T joint at the rear of the bridge deck, offset the joint here as well for serviceability, or use jumper cables here. Would add weep holes to the underside of the fiberglass channel, just in case a water line failure floods the bridge deck. The fiberglass channel should be supported on some sort of saddle not the edge of the rib to prevent chafing as boat flexes and prevent squeaking. One can test the busbar by running some current through the bar and measuring the voltage drop at the joints and the entire system with good sensitive digital volt meter. A current of 20 to 50A would be easy to provide with a power supply and a 6.5 or 7.5 digit DVM should do for the voltage readings. And be sure to calculate the system voltage drop correctly. I have seen several folks calculate the drop is the positive cable but forget to include the drop in the negative cable when figuring your 3% loss.
I'm not an EE, but I was also concerned about some issues, mainly the inflexibility of all the rigid splices in case of thermal expansion over such a distance and how that may lead to warping or buckling of the solid bus bar without a flexible connection somewhere in there to serve as an expansion joint. That could not only compromise the busbars themselves, which would lead to more loss (turned into more heat in a vicious circle), but also damage the casing and the insulation between the positive and the negative with potentially catastrophic consequences. I really hope you won't get discouraged by all the comments on this video, because I'm pretty sure all of us wish you a long, happy and especially a safe journey on Delos 2.0.
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As an old Electrical Engineer myself I like the idea of copper busbars but I wouldn't run them both in the same channel, the possibilities of moisture or even condensation inside the insulation on a boat is high and may lead to arcing ! 50kw is no joke even at 48v and must be given every consideration, if it was in a factory or distribution system it would have to have separate insulation and a good air gap !
I don't think you want the channel sealed either because you'll need to be able to inspect the connections so it may be necessary to leave some holes for drainage in case water gets in.
That was my first thought too, and I am a hobbyist, not an engineer. Is having both conductors in the same box even a thing on boats?
After installing quite a few 48V off grid systems, I was thinking the same thing, that the + and - bus bars may be too close to each other.
Brian needs to see this!!!
@@RJMSINCR Wiring for boats has to be up to certain standards which I'm sure Brian is fully aware of but this does seem to be a bit of an oversight on his part, I may be wrong because it is unfamiliar territory but I would err on the side of caution when dealing with so much power.
45 years in industrial electrical power installation. I would also suggest an air gap between the buses. Any heat generated needs a place to go.
I‘m an EE since 40 years and I was working with bus bars. Please take the added contact resistance in account if you are using splices and especially on your stack‘s. We put always crease between the contacting areas. It’s not a yoke. Not to insulate but to enhance the conductivity between pressed conducting areas and not to get corrosion in between. Please look for specific literature . It is named conductiv grease
Just came to add the same information I used to install high voltage bus bars in hospitals. Wish I could remember the name of that conductive Grease we used at every connection. It was to promote conductivity and stop corrosion. The old rememory ain't what it used to be. Lmao 🤣
I watched the whole video anticipating a consultation with an EE or similar professional expert. That never came.
i was thinking the same thing. Plates are never 100% flat. So effectively reducing the surface area. Although the flat bit has much more area than then cross section (if that makes sense). The corrosion might create a serious issue.
Brian's degree and job he quit to by Delos was an EE.@jackechan1311
@@doggonedk Wasn't Thermalle Condusil was it?
Coming out of the power generation industry we used a hollow buss system because of the increased surface area and since curent flows on the surface of the buss there was less heat build up. Also, we used chilled air to remove the heat and keep the resistance from increasing. I sure hope this works well for you.
Also I aggree that I would not run the + and - bus in the same channel since you could experience arcing when you start puching higher amount of current accross the buss.
Good luck and God bless
Current tends to the surface of the conductor (skin effect) only on AC, on DC this doesnt happen, so it wil distribute evenly across the conductor cross-section.
Having both polarities close together tightens the magnetic field, which is better for the boat.
As above peron said surface effects are for AC only.
another retired engineer. I calculated with CTE of 16.4 micron/meter/degree C for copper would yield an expansion of. .387 mm/degree C in a length of 23 meters, or about 15 mm with a delta C of 40 degrees. Need to have a flexible join somewhere.
As an electrician and a boater, the bus bars need to be installed with standoff insulators, and the bars should be in separate channels. I would also use coated bars, the danger of something conductive shorting them out is too great. Best of luck.
I agree they should be in separate channels or something needs to secure and so they don’tchafe
…just one thought - is negative line needed? This is a metal boat - Can the minus be extremely well terminated in battery compartment to dry massive body part. Like a car starter that takes hundreds of amps from the engine body which is terminated to car body.
@@elinicfurniture6860 too much of a chance for galvanic corrosion to eat the aluminum in my opinion expecally with the salt water atmosphere
@@tommussington8330yes I think you are right
Brian. Get some advice from a maritime electrical engineer, there are risks here (moisture ingress, shorting, bolted method of jointing causing heat, movement, electrolysis). I’m an ex marine engineer and to be honest I’m not happy that this is a safe design for a marine environment, such high currents can be dangerous in the event of failure and your conduits are effectively inaccessible. I’m also not sure Insurers would accept this unless it was certified and tested.
I watched the whole video anticipating a consultation with an EE or similar professional expert. That never came.
Brian, Dave Mc, ex MarE 1 here. I’m adding a further comment because I am concerned. I know you’ve put time and cost into this and you yourself are an electrical engineer, however I really do think you need to get the advice of a marine electrical design engineer or company. I’ve looked back at UK DOE Marine Electrical Regs (which are basically the same as USA Regs) and I’m concerned that what you are doing doesn’t comply in terms of insulation, separation, jointing and integrity, also durability in the marine environment. It may even be a fire hazard, if not sooner, then later. Please take some advice before you proceed further. Sorry to be a downer, I love your channel and I’m concerned for you all.
They have used buss bars in the marine world for decades. As long as the connections are done properly and he has taken the added resistance into account, as well as expansion, there is no more danger here than cable.
@@Seansousa757. I understand your point but these are not bolted, braised or riveted connections, they are screwed, thus compromisable by age, vibration etc. Insulation by way of loose flat grp plate between bars is not integral, it’s incomplete and open to compromise by water and dust. Also thermal expansion/contraction is not accounted for. The entire conduit is also open to compromise by water, particularly in its bilge location. These are all regulated matters that would not comply.
@@Seansousa757 Not true. Cable has a measure of flexability, buswork does NOT.
I am so impressed with all the qualified remarks being given to Brian. It is really cool and very thoughtful and helpful information to take into consideration for the safety of his family, everyone.👍💯🤔🏆
I manage buildings that use busbars exclusively and you have to think of 3 things. The insulation between the busbars have to be extremely well made when you are running that high of a load. the connection points between 2 bars have to be milled as a bar will not be flat, and with that load you will have a lot of heat if you don't have a 100% good connection. And 3rd and last that i have not seen anyone talk about think of how much the bar will expand and shrink with heat. a long straight bar will expand much when it gets warm and that will compromise the connections.
Yes, that was my first thought, heat. Both for temperature rise and expansion.
A lot of really good comments here by electrical engineers - I'm sure Brian will take them seriously. I'm also a EE, also with ME & thermal experience. Might want to also consider that the fiberglass housing is a thermal insulator. If you have 3% loss in the bus bars and are transferring 50 kW, that means 1500W of heat being generated. With that inside a thermally isolated chamber things will get hot. Fortunately that's distributed over a long distance, but is it negligible?
I can’t understand why he can’t up the Voltage and reduce the current.
Am I missing something
@@stephenwilliams4722I'm an engineer working in DC power. 48V is much safer. You can touch live 48VDC (not that you should), and its probably fine. 400V is a different story
I think you need to rethink your voltage. At 400v your whole system only needs 125 amps witch is much easier to deal with. No buss bar needed. This system you built will be impossible to inspect and repair. Since your new to electrical engineering using prebuilt parts will make the system much safer. Take a look at your blocks that you built to go from one tray to the other. Each connection you made adds resistance and a failure point, You just built a small heater, what you should have done is bent the buss bar to the shape you need. I am also very worried about the the bars being so close with no air gap. This is both a heat and an arc flash issue. If salt water ever gets in your going to have an instant 50kw welders until your fuses blow. Once that happens you have no way to repair it. A better option is to change voltage then put in regular water tight conduit and pull normal wires that have no junctions under your deck. The get wires rated for water and to be in a conduit together. I love your work and want you to be successful.
I would also consider go to high voltage to decrease ampers and enable standard components. 48V looks safe but that current...
I agree. That seems like way too much continuous current going to your motors. Electric cars putting out 200 hp don’t use bus bars. Seems like you’re way over engineering this with many opportunities for failure.
Looks awesome Brian.
Are you worried about the chafing of the aluminum holes on the fiberglass channel?
With all the movement that boat is gonna be doing, I'm worried about the aluminum chewing into that fiberglass and grounding that out.
Food for thought.
Regarding the Busbars: many electricians already said their concerns:
- putting them in same enclosure
- not using conductivity grease between plate connections
- not using copper rivets / using brass instead of pure copper screws
- calculating dimensions only for standard ambient temp instead of critical temp (you are in the warm regions often so calculate for 40°+ celsius
- using only adhesive to close the glassfibre enclosure
BUT ALSO
- there is also a mechanical point :
Please check with your Naval engineer what the maximal deflection of your boat will be .
Calculate the work hardening of your copper bus bars after some years of deflection cycles.
I think it will be under the aluminum values, but i am not sure.
Even small deflections over millions of cycles will harden the copper and it will at least crack, this will lead to high resistance and if big enough to a fiery ending.
That is why in most applications even with small possibility of cable (busbar) movement one would use fine-core flexible cables instead of wire.
Possible mitigation:
Install measuring cables between all 3 endings of the busbars, use an automatic logging device which can log volts amperes and resistance. You could measure between +and - ends of the bus bars, but you then would not know which one is the problem. That is why you need separate measuring cables.
With all the constant churning of the ocean, and the slamming on the boat, you should run some rubber edging around those cut holes or they will act like knife blades. wherever a conduit/pipe goes through a cut hole put some rubber U trim/edging. Even that steering column will be slamming up and down with the waves.
It's one of the reasons they use Basalt fiber for high current/volt insulators .
Brian take some time to watch arcflash videos. If copper sublimates as in an arcflash event. A 1 inch cube of copper expands 67,000 times and burns hotter than the surface of the sun. I dont want to scare you but this is scary stuff! I encourage you to consult a maritime EE. This is not the place to save money electrical safety is paramount.
Seriously, all these safety concerns and from what I understood they are saving mere 4k USD over the regular cabling, while adding a lot of complexity and future maintenance issues. K.I.S.S. is the way to go, hacking around 40kW electrical installation is not.
I love you guys, so this comes from the bottom of my heart.
As an Electrical engineer within the offshore industry I watched the busbar installation with a high degree of concern.
You need to consult a certified electrician/ engineer with specialty in marine installations and get professional advice.
There are so many safety concerns, that you have not taken into account, that I do not know where to start 😅
Please stop and rethink this setup before continuing, as this could literally burn down your beautiful new catamaran/ home 🫶🏼
My warmest regards
Jesper (Denmark)
I agree also that placing both buss bars inside the same trough is only asking for trouble in a wet moveable environment! It's only a matter of WHEN water or condensation will fill your trough and completely melt down your buss bars and electrical system. Might want to reconsider or investigate a different way to independently insulate buss bars in a wet metallic environment.😢😢
After thinking about the critical systems aspect of this....
I think i would run redundant lines to left and right engines. This would in theory half the amperage needed in each line, and might allow you to use cable rather than a bus bar. But even if you still use a bus bar, you could use a smaller one, that could be one continuous bar mounted vertically and bent to left and right, rather than needing a bolted/braised T-junction.
And as a critical system, even if one bus shorted and failed, you would still have power to at least one engine.
Im not an electrician nor an engineer, but with that being said - Purely from a maintenance perspective I would have some concerns, the main one being that the bus bars are essentially hard-fixed into the hull, meaning: if something goes wrong you need to cut the hull wide open to get to the issue, and if the bus needs replacing you'll need a full refit. Cables can be fed in and fed out, like a wiring loom in a car, but when the wiring loom is part of the chassis that becomes almost impossible without taking the car apart. That being said, im interested to see how this turn out in the future!
I don’t have any electrical experience but I had the same thought about this being a maintenance nightmare of something breaks. Sure hope he does some extensive testing before sealing things up.
Dirk here from Germany. Long time lurker, finally hit the notification bell. I hope, my English is good enough you can understand the concerns I have? Be very carefull!!!! I agree with Ian-C.01>>>
I am electrician as well. 1000 Amp DC/ 48V ain't no joke. You running +/ - in the same duct only with an layer of 8 mm insulation??? I hope I get it correct, the 8mm insulation layer has no contact to the 2 side walls of the fiber glas duct, and will not be glued to them correct? So you still doesnt have a fully concealed Plus duct and fully concealed Minus duct, correct? You are underestimate the humidity and moisture,& the twist of the whole ship structre. I have seen Master electrical cabinets for big bank buildings here in Germany for 400V AC 1000A with even smaller copper busbars as those ones on your ship, The Bang I heard 2 level above the basement was enourmous during 1st time switch on the system. The cabinet cover had a hole 30x30 cm only because 1 copper busbar ( 1 phase of 3) hat not the correct air gap safety distance to the cabinet grounded sidewall on a foggy moisterus day decades ago.
Dont get me wrong, I dont want to schoolmaster you or lecturing you,I am no ship builder electrician after all, but I would consult a
electical engineer in Aussi Land, who's specialized in electric installation in ship/ vessel power distribution systems.
Personally I would run them ( +/-) separate as long as I can,concealed from each other, and would only join them only in the Machine compartment. Run them ( +/-) together as short you can effort for safety. Have you thought about the master kill switch, which allows you to disconnect the battery power from the busbars in case of problems? This switch I would use remotly controlled, not entering the batterie compartment or the machine compartment for operation. A switch often used in transformer stations on land on medium- high voltage systems all above 1000V AC. Nevertheless, I love your channel. cant wait week by week on the new episode.
I would consider brazing the bars together to eliminate any risk of the bolts loosening over time and requiring service. With the bars on top of each other in a single channel you will never be able to get to the lower positive bus bar to service it if needed. Brazing them together will also help prevent corrosion.
You're so gutsy. It would have taken me 5 minutes to find an experienced specialty electrical engineer with many similar installations.
Brian, I don't know how relevant this is, but might be worth checking in with 'Gone With The Wynns'. I think they have some kind of electric hybrid motor propulsion system also and their latest video on their YT channel showed a significant battery/energy management failure.
Brian is a pretty smart guy. While his plan is ingenious and him being an electrical engineer says a lot, I would have probably run separate channels for each busbar just to be safe. I suspect there will be flexing/movement on a boat so I prefer the separation of the two conductors.
Not just boat flexing, but daily/hourly flexing as the heat dissipates from the two bars at a slower rate on the lower bus than the top.
Which means the bars will be constantly sliding against the insulation between them. Like 5-10mm of movment each cycle. 😢
I worry this will be an issue in a year or two, with no way to monitor and inspect this condition.
@ Good points.
Brian, as an electrician, I am very impressed with your ability and ingenuity and skill to come up with this solution and set it up, amazing job buddy👍👍❤️❤️🇮🇪🇮🇪
I can only think of one bad thing to say about this episode and that is we have to wait another week for another. I'm 100% invested in watching these episodes ASAP :)
8:17 I can see how this will work for insulating it electrically, but what about the magnetic field shielding? Even less than 1kA under your floor may end up messing up with the circuits or devices you will be running across the hull. Those weird issues will drive you mad and can potentially be hazardous when boat control gets impacted.
Having dealt with many low voltage high current bus bar systems I applaud your choice for Delos 2. I'm curious about your choice of running positive power on the bottom bus bar & negative power on the top within the fiberglass channel. Assuming the motor/generator/battery system utilizes negative ground like most conveyance electrical systems, what happens if the aluminum spars grind through the fiberglass channel due to boat motion, temperature
gradients or flexing of the hull? Is the possibility of breeching the fiberglass channel a non-issue or will the system be positive rather than negative ground?
More ?? for the drive system video...
Swedish sailing vloggers unite! Delos and Ran should do a little collaboration boat building if you can.
This!!!! ⛵
Didn't realize Brian was Swedish...
@@War4theWest
Lol the clues in the hair and The mother in law granny. 😉🧙🏼♂️
I agree
@@War4theWestBrian is not Swedish. He is an American. Karen is from Sweden
E E here. You've got a low voltage Tesla here. They have extraordinary fault protection including pyrotechnic fuses that quench DARPA type metal dust explosions. This is very high level EE design.
Incredible work on the bars Brian ... and Awesome to have people supporting you along the way even just to voice and motivate you !!! Well done Kaza also ... hope the Nugs gets through the sickness quick ! Thank you so much every week for the videos (to the whole team!) ... such an inspiration. xx
See. That is what I was talking about in your build series. Brand new idea for me at least replacing a ton of cabling that would have needed 30 splices, you came away with 4.
Excellent stuff Brian and Kazza. Lovei
Innovative design. I'm sure the team has considered this but, I hope the bus bar splices maintain their integrity in the dynamic environment of a vessel and moisture in the conduit is not a problem. Perhaps I missed when this was addressed.
Stainless Belleville washers are in order here to maintain the connections. from 45 years in the Utility world.
Not to forget expansion and contraction between dissimilar materials. I realize the difficulties of 'doing everything twice' but I'm thinking two separate ducts would have been much, much safer. Not that I'm an expert, but I was thinking of encapsulating the two layers with a vinylester resin (or similar?), pouring and sealing one conductor in the bottom of the tray, adding a thin, solid insulator sheet, pour another layer, then finishing by pouring a second, capping vinylester layer.
There's something you should know. He's overdoing it a bit. Not unlike in EV's, electric ships motors need to be calculated well above their norm use power consumption in order to last. As a consequence, he's got way more power than he'll ever need, but the bus bars are able to deal with that peak power anyway. The whole track is dry above the water line, so seawater ingress is unlikely to ever become a problem.
@Berend-ov8of in a marine environment, salt is in the air and condensation . The insulation he is building is not sufficient for a salt marine environment.
@@bamaman6297 I'm not so sure of that.
I lived and worked on a sailing vessel myself for a few years when I was younger, and I noticed that impact of water or salt in the air depends to a considerable extend on how exposed the material is, ranging from corrosion happening so fast you can almost see it happen, to parts or compartments the air had no noticeable access to, or influence on. Corrosion inside electronic equipment for instance. You would expect to see at least some damage, but even after years of being used, I opened it up and there was nothing. Not even a little. So it varies. I don't expect these bus bars to turn into a corroded mess any time soon. They're relatively well tucked in. Waxing them might have been a good idea. Hot wax and a flame, so it creeps into every corner. But it'll hold.
I am guessing a stretch of 15m (x2) and find that the voltage drop is approximately 1.V (or 2%), and the power loss is approximately 1kW for a 50kw nomina load. As a ship electrification, i have never seen Cu bars encapsulated.. cresttive, but...questioning that it may be an idea to ensure airing of the 1kw of heat. (Ie. 2 separate trays installing the bars on isolators allowing air circulation). Edit: in operation you will need access to every screw and joint for maintenance purpose. / Amazing project, wish you success.
I'm on the side it's a very bad idea. Back in the late 60s, I'm the guy who changed hot plants to cold plants. Aka nukler power plants. The blow off from bus bars was amazing. In 1976 1977, we designed and put up a whole new power grid for all 48 lower states in 18 months. I was in charge of 30.000 engineering guys war vets army core ECT. ( My back history ).. your right the heat,. The chance of arking, salt water will find it's way into the Chanel. I also wish them good luck..
I started watching SV Delos back in 2020. I love the show. Now you blessed me with building a boat. Great job team Delos. Thank you for all the videos.
Brilliant solution Brian! 💪Respect.....not only for this solution to the hight difference of the bus bars, but for years of following your adventures, challenges and solutions created....just to mention a few 😉❤
I'm not an engineer, but I work in industrial power supply. Orienting the bars face to face, even with insulation, presents an opportunity for arc flash. It's much safer to put the bars edge to edge. Check out UL standard 891 for some suggestions on using copper bus.
I'm pleasantly surprised by this episode. I have a background in electrical design but my career path took me down the route of autonomous vehicles. This was so refreshing and fun to watch.
I think you will be pleased with your use of Copper busbars for all the reasons you shared. after 37 years of working around power plants at the Phone Company with much larger 48V DC power plant bus bars hopefully, you can seal them well to be around Salt Water. lots of good wishes and safe sailing once you Delo;s 2.0 in the water.
Water system? Such a cool project! Your channel is, by far, the best on RUclips!
I don't get it... Why use 48V and 1000 Amps instead of using 2 x 25kW inverters (380/400V, 3 phases AC), mounted near the battery compartment and use smaller size wires to get to the motors (insulated, marine-grade).
I know adding inverters is like adding other points of failure but the way that busbar is connected doesn't inspire much confidence.
And, about the bus-bars... Why use "stacking" and have a lot of contact-resistances (that cand be subject to problems) instead of just bending a portion of a bus-bar (in a U or S-like shape to change the level) and have only 2 contacts ?
Before you start using the bus-bar use a milli-ohm meter and measure each bus-bars resistance: from one end to the other, from the split-join to each end; and write the values down somewhere.
In case you'll have doubs or problems you can use the same meter and test the bus-bar again and you'll know if there are problems with it ;)
Adding extra inverter is not another point of failure here - quite the opposite, it's added redundancy! If one fails, you still have another engine and inverter ready to work with the other engine AND all the electric circuitry onboard. They are typically paired to share the load, so failover should happen automatically should one fail.
I'm not an EE, but I've got concerns about how close your bars are (even with insulation) and those splices. Without a very solid electrical connection between the bars, most of the current is going to be flowing through the screws holding things together. I definitely feel like, while the bus bar was a good idea to reduce weight and expense, probably should have been handled much earlier in planning, and involved an EE to ensure it was done properly.
Bus bar is the only way to go! love to see this type of stuff! Also im in electrical sales and when you were talking about wires i was yelling bus bar! LOL
Why?? this is not AC
That was really incredible. Your brain works differently than most. So cool to see you work through that process!
Get to work and finish this boat of the future before i am gone! I ain,t getting any younger ! IEnjoy watching THE BUILD !😊
Cant wait to see delos cruising on the new boat!
Brian, why did you put the batteries so far forward? Moving the batteries closer to the engines would also reduce the voltage drop.
Do they make a narrower fiber channel? I would add two channels, each in a different mouse hole, rather than trying to put both bus bars in one channel!
How do you plan to cool and ventilate the bus bars? I think it's important to cool and reduce condensation on the bus bars and insulation in your 2 bars in one channel design.
Please tell me you've planned a way to be able to service and replace those long stiff bus bars if they corroded over time, or need the separating insulation layer replaced.
I think narrower fiber channels would allow you to add rubber grommets in the beams, so that vibrations do not wear through the fiberglass over the years in the surf and waves!
And using two channels would have given you a lot more room to adapt to the alignment difference near the salon, and inspect to splice points over time.
I am a little worried about your splices! Did you measure the resistance of your connection?
I worry about the galvanic action of the M6 bolts going through the tin and copper. And they may vibrate loose over time without lock tight, inspecting those is going to be a PITA.
For sure, make sure you have a hatch so you can monitor those bolts. That's also why I would have used two channels, as checking the bolts and splices with the bus bars stacked is going to be very hard.
I think I would solder the splices, in addition to the bolts?
Fair size capacitor you are building here, hope you took that into account when driving inductive loads.
maybe 2-10 nF? even at 60V it will not have an energy greater than 0.001J
I would nearly suggest to pot the bus bars with epoxy into the channel. This long runs will chatter once the boats in the water, plus you really dont wanna allow it move with currents flowing trough bar. I have seen larger bus bars warp when currents go wrong (eg. surges and shorts).
100% need to load test this before you close it up!!!! It would be worth any time delay to make sure it can handle the load without issues now.
As long as it stays dry, it should be okay. Salt water ingress would be a disaster. Keep an eye on electrolysis and the gasses it will create.
Love the bus bar idea! Great video.
Dear Brian. Did you derated busbars for heating, closed space and non ventilation? Since you choose 80x6mm I think that you didn't. Your bus bar will be overheated. Also when bus bar is dimensioned properly, it heats up to 65C. Additionaly I think that it is better to use heat shrinkable tubing, halogen free, than custom made insulation. Please recheck your calculation for current carrying capacity of bus bar.
I second this. Anywhere you plan to run 1kA needs cooling and those fiberglass channels might not deal with the heat load as well as you think.
Wow. Big project. Great attention to detail. Can’t wait to see power flowing through it.
Excellent progress guys! More power to you 💪
Awesome, just awesome seeing the challenges and how we overcome these challenges. Totally nerding out at the thought process going into the build. Great video guys.
The bus bar was a genius idea. It’s going to be perfect is so many ways. Nice work, guys!
Fascinating, the way you figured it all out 👍
Have you allowed for expansion, copper over that length will move quite a bit ..
That's my question as well. Given the length of these bars, and seeing that they connect perpendicular to one another, I would expect significant movement in both the X and Y directions. If this had been cable, there would have been some loop or bend left in it to allow for the movement.
Interesting suggestions in here for Brian.
I like the bus bar solution - the implementation seens logical but perhaps a few more safeguards are needed due to the marine environment and motion / stresses unique to a vessel.
I think you're on the right track though by avoiding huge runs of cabling.
Having worked with bus bar on the utility scale... That stack connection is probably fine, but you can bend bus bar. There is also braided copper bus bar jumpers that are flexible. That probably the way I would have gone. But I've seen both work great.
Poor nuggs! She sounds terrible. Thank goodness she has wonderful loving parents to take good care of her. I will pray for all of you guys.
Hi guys! So excited for your anxiety project. The outcome can only be awesome!
Can I make a small suggestion for future adaptations and one consideration for the current setup?
In future adaptation have the bars be side by side, that way it can be inspected. Could even run a clear (non-conductive) tube between them as an insulator but also able to fit an inspection camera in. Yes, it would have to be thicker and less wide to carry the same load and still fit. Just a thought. Love your ingenuity!
With current setup make the bottom bar the negative so you have the ability to inspect the positive busbar. Or would the potential arc damage be more visible on the negative, 🤷! Which ever would show arc damage more put on top. again I absolutely love your ingenuity and innovations!
I apreciate you using the KISS approach in explaining
I can appreciate Brian enjoying having a shop to work in. As a transportation mechanic, having to work in all kinds of environments sucks. Especially on people movers( 🚌). Do sailing vessels have ECUs & ECMs that function like those in vehicles? Have never seen a dashboard like set up for trouble lights for system issues on a vessel. I'm just curious, a non sailor. Learning as I watch.😅
To avoid bird nesting wires, I suggest using Wire Loom & Wearher pack connectors.
Love the @RANsailing call-out👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Brian very inventive solution as per usual from you.
People ask "I've never heard of Bus bars before" The most common usage of copper bus bars are inside a residential load center aka electrical panel. Behind the face plate and breaker switches of your home electrical panel are a positive and a negative copper bus bars. The breakers tie into the bus bars for power. NEVER ever remove the cover plate of an electrical panel. Licensed electrical contractor area ONLY.
Brian is essentially building the same thing on a much much larger scale, really extremely inventive.
However Brian I'm concerned about having the bus bars in such close proximity, one stacked on top of the other. Arcing between the two is a real concern the type of insulation used and testing, testing is key. Additionally arcing between the aluminum frame of the boat and the copper bus bars worries me. If it were to happen the whole frame would then become energized too. It's like when we see a home owner pass electrical cable through the metal distribution ductwork of a forced air heating and cooling system. An arc between the two will energize all of the metal ductwork. A huge fire risk and deathly shock risk to any human which is why it's against the building code.
Once again great solution but as you know testing testing is required BEFORE the deck plate is welded in place..
Very interesting. Being the first at anything of this magnitude is brave and takes faith in knowledge few have. May the results not be shocking.
kudo's to you brian! I'm a master electrician of 30+ years and love this! love this series you two! keep it up and lets keep grinding, but not that grinding lol
Commercial electrician here we call that open air bus. We normally use something called bus duct in build,Ings. Great work. One worry we always have with bus on construction projects is installing in dry building and letting know humidity ever get to the bus because it will deaf ruin it. Just saying great work and make sure u study humidity and protection. One more thing. Haveing them in same enclosure is fine we do that with three phases and a neutral at 480v.
Filmed in may factories where the overhead cranes were connected to 3 phase buss bars that ran the length of the factory….up high and fully exposed!
This next month or two will be interesting. Looking forward to seeing how much progress Dan and Kurt make while you're away. Hope Nuggs is OK during your travels (flights especially) 👍👍🤞🤞
I am SO glad you broke down the electrical needs into microwaves, TVs, and MacBooks. Us Americans needed it 😆
And then he threw in the tea water boilers for the rest of us.😁
Looking great guys 😊 nice work
Hi Bryan, I have no electric background and hesitated to comment here, and it's probably to late anyway. Still worried though...
You start with the assumption to bring 50KW of energy to the back in a single bus, but I would argue that you could have made the calculation for 2 separate 30KW line. This would be a more manageable 600 Amp rating that could be passed along 1500 kcmm cables. Expansive I agree, but easier to route, turn, isolate, waterproof and strand.
I understand you have a electric background, but I would love that you take a specialist with you on this one.
Wish you the best.
Actually, welding would be difficult in situ, so I see why you went with the bolting. Hats off to you, amazing work!
So nice to hear and see! Welcome to the real world, the metric world! 🇸🇪😄😀💕
Went to comments to make my point - but it’s been said so many times 😄 only thing I would add is that you could fill the channel with transformer oil - but you need to consider access and thermal expansion - your 3% volt drop will be 1.5kW of heat in those bars!
The system also needs a way to break the current instantly in case of a short. This much power will turn your aluminum hull into molten metal and fire faster than you can react. Imo there is insufficient insulation around your buss bars and condensation will be a problem at some point. I do respect your right to do it any way you see fit though, it's your family and your boat. Best wishes.
Good Jobe !You and Kazza are 2 Warriors from Sea....Brian can open a Boat Shop to Boats Construcion !!!!! Hahaaaaaaaa... Now the Sea is small for this. Nave SV Dellos 2 !
Just a couple of thoughts as an Aussie Sparky, that I haven't seen mentioned already.
Also read your an Electrical Engineer so you're probably onto it and it was missed from camera.
1. Ductor testing from one side of bar across the splice plate to other side of bar. Should be looking for low micro ohms. As mentioned elsewhere some dielectric grease also.
2. Quick orbital sand of all bars, majority of current is carried on surface of bar, so this removes any grease/impurities/etc and eliminates any potential hot spots.
Keep up the great work.
Grit and determination. Love it!
So sick. Will you explain how you can splice and get power for future electrical needs?
This made me think. I made a few large busbars myself for our 1500 watt/12v battery bank and my biggest fear was lack of isolation, as that can totally ruin a boat. Hence they’re totally separated and waterproof. And I’d do the same here. I know it’s double the work but having total isolation would be my preferred solution. It adds the weight of extra polyester u profile but prevents 100% the spark risk and electric leak risk. If ever the boat floor gets soaked with water and water gets in between you have an enormous problem. a totally isolated system can be repaired but this.. if there water in those profiles you need to get everything out and totally dry it.. try that at sea. it’s probably still relatively easy to separate the positive/negative at this stage. As for insurance don’t be surprised if this is excluded from coverage.
Just my five cents.
I’m various how the busbars insulation will deal with the vibration between the stacks.
Really cool stuff guys.
I was wondering how you were going to get the power to the engines. This is why I'm surprised that the battery's are not near the engines in the hulls. I know the Silent Yachts have them under the main salon a lot closer to the engines. When you're doing that kind of work, keeping the momentum moving forward, even through set backs, is important, so progress can be seen to keep from getting discouraged.
As i was watching this video and thinking this must be different for a boat (is it
?) but got more and more concerned. I was a construction manager in the US and built plenty of condo towers with bus ducts. We had one instance where the shaft the duct ran in got wet and the result was catastrophic. Pretty ugly actually. Concerned about this install in a boat hull environment being hot, maybe salty, humid and not to mention the movement issues also noted by others. Wouldn't hurt to get a third party expert second opinion on this design and install. I am sure you are a smart guy, i have been following your channel for years, recognize you are extremely clever. But with this being a life safety issue, you can never be too pragmatic. Great channel, awesome adventures and experiences. Love to the family and best regards 😊
I would run the +ve busbar in one channel and the -ve busbar in another. A bad connection on one of those fishplates on the lower busbar would be a nightmare to fix. It would also give you the ability to take power off the busbar anywhere along it's length at a later date with minimal fuss. The seperation by 300mm feels way safer instead of 8mm. This looks very complicated. A sea water leak into that stacked busbar will cause havoc with those joints
Sailing SV Lynx is doing a very similar thing with bus bars on his Cat build. He just moved his batteries a lot closer to the engines. You may not be able to do that for weight distribution. He’s having some issues with that.
Smart idea for the juice !! Concern would be condensation, maybe weep holes on bottom ?
Hi there!
Ans sooo good solution about el and werry good work 😊😊👌👌👌
OMG u guys watch RAN sailing?!!!! me too - that wooden boat is crazy
Yes, fiberglass makes a good insulator, yet it is susceptible to moisture, I would suggest two insulators between positive and negative bars as well as paint the outside of the fiberglass with numerous coats of hard coat that is used on fiberglass boats to help cut down on blisters from moisture getting into the fiberglass. The more coats of hard coat the better, my rudder only had four coats on it and when pulled out had hundreds of blisters on it, so adjust as you see fit, it is your boat. Best of luck
Brian, I'm sure you are way ahead of us on this and you are far more experienced than I am - but I wonder if it's worthwhile to use a megger to do load testing and insulation testing on your electrical system so that you can sleep well at night knowing that it's robust and safe for your family! This is such a neat solution that you have engineered.
The problem with all these comments is, what you are seeing in this video is over 2 months old. He has already completed this I would think. Hopefully he got some professional advice as electricity in an aluminum boat is very dangerous.
hi been watching for years so happy for you guys i wondered if the electric motor could be used when sailing for regen similar to we sails new catamaran seems to be a very useful system on long passages thanks and good luck with the rest of the build guys
Bye the way, the buzz bars was ingenious 👍👍❤️❤️🇮🇪🇮🇪
you are brilliant! the busbar rocks!
Well I got to add my 2 cts. I believe the idea is sound, at 48V the insulation is more than adequate, salt water is not an issue as the run is well above the water line on the bridge deck. If it gets salt water drenched here, that is the least of your worry. The bars are unconstrained so heating expansion shouldn't be an issue as the bars can move to accommodate the expansion. I would want to analyze the heat dissipation due to IR losses a little further. I dislike the bolted splices and they would be a pain to inspect and tighten the lower bar, the splices should be offset horizontally to allow access to the bottom bar. A better solution would have been to eliminate the long run splices by tig welding the bars lengths. At the T joint at the rear of the bridge deck, offset the joint here as well for serviceability, or use jumper cables here. Would add weep holes to the underside of the fiberglass channel, just in case a water line failure floods the bridge deck. The fiberglass channel should be supported on some sort of saddle not the edge of the rib to prevent chafing as boat flexes and prevent squeaking.
One can test the busbar by running some current through the bar and measuring the voltage drop at the joints and the entire system with good sensitive digital volt meter. A current of 20 to 50A would be easy to provide with a power supply and a 6.5 or 7.5 digit DVM should do for the voltage readings.
And be sure to calculate the system voltage drop correctly. I have seen several folks calculate the drop is the positive cable but forget to include the drop in the negative cable when figuring your 3% loss.
I'm not an EE, but I was also concerned about some issues, mainly the inflexibility of all the rigid splices in case of thermal expansion over such a distance and how that may lead to warping or buckling of the solid bus bar without a flexible connection somewhere in there to serve as an expansion joint. That could not only compromise the busbars themselves, which would lead to more loss (turned into more heat in a vicious circle), but also damage the casing and the insulation between the positive and the negative with potentially catastrophic consequences.
I really hope you won't get discouraged by all the comments on this video, because I'm pretty sure all of us wish you a long, happy and especially a safe journey on Delos 2.0.