I have a bunch of techniques to escape loop hell: - Improvise on top of the whole song and keep/improve parts that fit! - Hum melodies on top of the whole song! - Mix patterns with various lengths! Don't avoid odd lengths! They'll simply loop over a longer time. - Stand up and move to the beat while working! This one probably makes the biggest difference.
Great tips, thank you! The one about humming over the top of a WIP is something I do constantly. Melodies that are lyrical and singable are not always the goal, but when they are, this is a really useful way to develop them.
Absolutely yes! I sometimes take a break and do something else and then a random variation comes into my head & I quickly get that down sometimes even replacing my original idea
As a musician who has spent the last 15 years or so languishing in the 4-8 bar loop hell, thank you for trying to save others from this creative purgatory.
Same. Almost exactly 15 years ago, I bought FL Studio (aka Fruityloops)and began slowly filling up folders with 4-8 bar "songs". Some I kinda liked and attempted to stretch into actual songs, but most were abandoned. My theory was that it just got too easy to make loops. You spend 45 minutes kinda jammin out and it comes together so easily, that the next step of stretching it out feels more like work than fun. I think it also hurts that the very nature of a loop is that it resolves back into itself and doesn't always have a logical place to go. Back in the day, when I was recording stuff on a 4 track, you had to do the hard work up front and have the overall outline of the song somewhat fleshed out. You could easily spend hours working on a song before ever recording anything.
@@applebutter4036 That's an interesting point. I wonder if there is an opportunity out there for a software developer to create a tool that makes the "stretching it out" portion of the composing more fun
@@maxrice6990 Could be and I love the idea. It doesn't even have to be fun. Maybe just a tool with a handful of parameters that can instantly lay out whatever patterns/samples you have into a basic song structure.
@@applebutter4036 All good points. It might also be that people who get lost in loops and seqs don't play an instrument. Pop music these days avoid middle eights/choruses/bridges, as we all know. I think because it's even hard to do for the pros let alone non-players.
i got scaler 2 for quick and nice chord progressions......listened to all 200+ chord presets and there is not one progession with 5+ different chords that i like
@@snubdawg1386 go to the channel Musician Paradise he has free chord progressions for a free chord app called Rip Chord amazing progressions in various genres. Also works for the MPC Live.
Me again - your new sub. Love the dry humour in your videos. And yes more on composition philosophy. I think that's what's missing in a lot of electronic music. I watch videos of folks who mastered their DAW, know intricate details of sound design etc, but when checking out their music, it doesn't connect. That's where the tried and tested musical theories come in, as you said. Storytelling with music.
I am a classically trained bassoonist, and a jazz saxophone player, along with guitar for fun and various other hobby instruments. Got my bachelor's degree in music 9 years ago and have found myself stuck in the 4-bar loop rut for years inside my DAW. Recently I've made it a point to map out, at least roughly, the different elements of a track before fully fleshing out the "drop" or the "chorus", etc. I have this horrible tendency to start with the main part of the song and then scrutinize every little minute detail of those 4-16 bars until I'm sick of hearing it and realize I don't have a song nor a vision for one anymore.
You forgot to mention: "THE MIDI PACK!" Seriously though, very interesting video topic on something I'm struggling with myself. I'll be downloading your Guide Book shortly, thanks!
I learned how to make music on youtube via FL Studio tutorials starting 15 years ago. This is one of the first videos regarding music I have watched in many years that didn't feel introductory or shallow. You didn't insult the viewers intelligence and you recognize that different musicians approach things in different ways. You introduce a concept via narration and then immediately perform a demonstration to communicate with musicians who lack the composition vocabulary to engage with the spoken content. You didnt flex gear or name drop or grandstand. You'd think I would love music youtube considering my background but beyond a certain level of music experience finding engaging content becomes near impossible. Im glad I stumbled into this video! Subbed! i rlly look forward to what you post next
As an amateur music creator, who still has a lot to learn with my instrumental skills and production, this video has been incredibly helpful. It’s easy to get lost in production and forget about the direction I’m trying to go in, and this video really inspired me at a low point 🙏
Hey Jameson this isnt about the video, which is great, but more about your music and I can't message you on spotify so... here it goes. I initially discovered you by watching your synth reviews as I was shopping for new equipment. Watched you for a while and because you never promoted it, not that I picked up on at least, I had no idea you had albums out. It was when I saw one of your improvs and thought to myself, "this is awesome I wish there was more" and decided to see if by chance you had a spotify that I found your catalog. All that back story was to say this; your music is *%#%ing incredible. Your newest album "Somewhat The Same" hit me hard man. Your experience, music-education and personal voice really show in your compositions and I have become a huge fan. It really takes me somewhere I need to go and after 4 decades of music I can say it is rare I have an emotional response to music like I did when I was younger and everything was new. I hope you see this, thank you for sharing your gift and making music your chosen path in life. Your decision to do so has certainly enriched my life as a result. To everyone else, if you are seeing this thinking this is just a youtube personality, do yourself a favor and look his music up, like now. Much love.
Hi Jameson! Gratefully and happily, I just found your RUclips Channel. This particular video was the first (so far) that I've watched. I like what I heard, both in your explanation of the term "composition" and the music that you compose. Since this is the first video of yours that I watched, I hope that there are others dealing with music composition. If not, then please produce more. Yes. . . I'm a composer as well. Earned my happy Bachelors in Music degree over 40 years ago (around the time when MIDI was being developed and before it was made available to the general public). So, I also started composing using "pencil to blank manuscript paper", which I still do today at times. I share the same thoughts and concerns that you share in this particular video regarding music technology. All of the wonderful tools associated with modern electronic music technology (including DAWs, keyboard controllers, synthesizers, etc., etc.) are helpful for the composer in developing and implementing ideas. However, one can easily lose focus being surrounded by all of these "tools". So, I force myself to compose using "pencil to blank manuscript paper". Actually, I use a music notation program and (attempt to) develop my compositions using this computer-based tool (with the help of the MIDI keyboard controller). What I WANT to do is develop my compositional skills. It's been 40+ years since I graduated from music college with a degree in Music Composition (from Berklee College of Music, if that means anything). Since that time, I got a degree (two degrees, actually) in nursing, and been an RN for over 30 years. Although I still compose music, it's taken a back seat to work, and to life in general. Going back to music college is WAY too Expensive! So, I'm looking for alternatives. Mentorship? Joining a group of composers that challenge each other with projects? Basically, I want to regain focus in composing music and exploring new compositional ideas (and tools). Please feel free to offer any suggestions. In the meantime, I wish you well! Kind Regards, Ted
my advice for people who can't escape the loop would be: don't be scared of something that doesn't immediatly sound great. just sketch out all of your ideas and refine them when the time has come. you'll notice when that is
I've found this helpful to me. Music technology allows me musical vomit on the DAW and then clean up later. The action of creating and refining is different brain functions that work better individually.
Okay, rewatching this one already. It's fantastic. It fulfills a real gap in the synth community - addressing composition, not from a purely musical theory boring approach, but in the sense of taking an idea from an initial strong loop or segment and actually taking it that next step. No one is really talking about this, but it's what makes something like your track "Could" so great. It's not just a nice repeated jam where you open and close the filter on your synth. You actually composed something. The biggest obstacle - this is work. Most of us have day jobs, use synths to relax. And yet if we really want to express ourselves, we have to do this work. Do you find it to be effortful as well, or does the composition process also feel as playful as the initial idea? Do we just have to grind our way through it or is there a way to breathe excitement into it? Can't wait to see where you go with this.
Thanks Michael! It’s definitely work - just like any discipline that’s really worth doing, but it does become easier to generate stronger ideas the more you do it. The more practice you’ve put in, the more tools you have in your toolbox. There’s no ceiling on learning though, so when you get better I certain areas, new challenges reveal themselves. My advice would be to not get frustrated that it’s difficult, but to enjoy the process as you get better at certain things. You can enjoy the cool things you come up with while also realizing there’s always room for growth.
If it's work for you without fun, just find another hobby or be contempt with opening and closing filters on a synth, alternatively reevaluate what you consider fun and practice enjoying activities with delayed rewards.
@@terryriley6410 I was specifically talking about the composition aspect. Go back and reread my comment, and what I said about being willing to embrace that. It seems you misunderstood.
I've been writing music professionally for almost 20 years and my number one tip is to use anything you just come up with. My (in my opinion) best music comes from singing random stuff when I do something completely unrelated like cleaning, making food, walking the dog etc. Just record it on your phone, even if it's stupid. And then visualize (if you can) in your head how the drums go, how the bass line works with the beat and add stuff from there. Don't rush it though, because often you keep getting stuck. Make sure you have at least a line for a chorus or a verse and usually everything just falls into place. One of my songs landed on the Japanese billboard and it started out with the line (translated from Swedish to English) "your parents are brilliant at convincing you that they loved you while you were wearing bracers".
That is a good tip. I started doing this recently, and it helped a lot. I’d come up with a good idea (for me) in the car or somewhere random and just started recording myself humming it out it different ways, as if it was just any song stuck in my head. It took me a while to realize that an idea I had might be fleeting and never come to me again. The practice of simply recording when inspired really kept a lot of creative doors open that previously were lost to forgetfulness. Unfortunately, many of my potentially best ideas happen in places like the shower where I haven’t yet figured out how to record effectively before I towel off and lose it!
Agree. I use notation software and that gives a much more visual workflow than midi notes on a piano roll, especially If you are working with more than one instrument, it's so easy to see how they are interacting.
"It's that idea about giving someone a fish vs teaching them how to make their own fish idea" LOL. Amazing. Not only did you provide lots of fantastic musical inspiration and direction, but the dry jokes were on point. Thank you Jameson!
yes!! I completely agree!! tell that to whoever it was, a few weeks back, who couldn't resist taking a sincere dig at doctor jones's jokes as he complimented the over all content of his vids. ("you call him doctor jones, lady!!")
I used to find my creativity flowed better pre-DAW, e.g. when playing natural tempo changes and pauses...now I have to mess about with flex time and play to a click bla bla, it's taken some of those organic changes out.
Thanks for sharing this- and also showing your pianist side. Those little playing moments gave the video a really warm and honest feeling and - in a positive way - are a counterpoint to the "standard" RUclips music production style. It reminded me of how I sometimes listen to music from let's say the 70s or earlier and feel like "oh wow, those people actually used composition and songwriting" compared to the loopy/more sound based style of today. I think it would be awesome to hear more about you transforming from a classically trained musician to an electronic one, especially your observations on how to integrate your "old" experiences into the new territory. I feel like it's quite a challenge to find a good balance between being instrumentalist and producer, although in theory it feels like it should give you so many advantages. Your channel is really inspiring, thanks 💚
Recently discovered your channel and I love your sense of humor and approach to sharing the music stuff with us all. Very relatable for me, in a lot of ways, thank you!!
as someone who drafted with paper and pencil up through grad school and since then has made more music via a DAW than otherwise, I completely relate to looking back and feeling that my composition chops were stronger back then. lately, I've been trying to balance the strengths of both approaches. this really resonated with me!
So getting this...I've avoided DAW as I am also a piano player and am used to live performance. I've recently stopped using my sequencers on volcas for the basic reason that it feels more live...see how it goes. This is really useful thank you
I think your focus on composition as it pertains to electronic music is uniquely higher-level and a big reason why I've subbed. Thanks for the awesome content.
It's actually a completely different perspective to those composers who learned to compose music THROUGH midi/sequencers rather than the classical approach of writing to sheet. But I'm at a point where I feel as if I begin learning to write in sheet rather than in midi, alot more new ideas will flow for me, for example writing in musescore rather than a traditional DAW
Such a good channel. You have a breadth of knowledge. Please don't sacrifice that quality for views! Only reason I say that is because other RUclipsrs have done that! Protect this man at all costs!
Totally agree. Too many options tear your music apart. It stops to be musical, it starts to be more technical and leads you to nowhere. Eventually I return to a pencil, a paper and piano sound.
Hell yes, more please! The "theory of composition" rather than "theory and composition" (if that makes sense) is absolutely my jam, and you discuss it in a really great, accesible and entertaining way. I am excited for what you do next, whichever direction you go in :)
Re: getting stuck in improvisation, some things that have helped me: - Change key; each key has a unique sound, so it might help spur new ideas - Likewise improvise over different chord progressions; not just I-IV-V to I-IV-V-III but something varying wildly - Using some electronic techniques: Try different instrument presets. If you usually improv with a dark lead, try it with an arp; if you tend to prefer plucks, try something with some portamento
Interesting topic! Thanks for starting this convo. I've never reviewed the piano roll in DAWs as written music that can be edited. From my perspective a Hip-Hop & Soul music Songwriter and producer, I believe DAWs further influences "loop culture" without much variation or none. Sequencers are typically set to a certain amount of measures that then gets loops. The presentation of sequencers influence the notion that loop is the end all be all loop.
very thought provoking talk. the notion that many of us are simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of options and choices available to us these days is brilliant. surely music composition isn't just about dragging and rearranging loops ableton live (a kind of musical paint by numbers). nor is it about creating two bar loops that sound good but go nowhere. and, in particular, it is not about some AI algorithm analyzing a body of compositions and coming with a facsimile. you can't put the music technology genie back in its bottle but, as you say, you can limit yourself and your range of options to focus your mind on what is really important. this is a great start and a must watch for aspiring writers caught in a tech rut with no idea of how to move forward. thanks
A lot of good points, and extremely useful. Theory vs composition. Mine your improvs. Question and answer melodies. And your own compositions and playing - breathtaking. This is great.
Thank you for this essay. The Q+A analogy really opens up things for me - it's really a beautiful abstraction that embraces not only things like song structure (AABA etc), but also things like changes in dynamic, texture and other building blocks. I feel really inspired - thank you!
I've been producing and composing for 13 years now. I started at 17 and now I'm almosr 31. It's been my full-time job for 7 years. I have a lot of tricks up my sleeve on how to complete ideas before getting tired of my ideas. I use a lot of filters and transpose the scales while mixing and then before the final day of mixing I go clean and mix every individual instrument until it's "good". I still might be very used to the song but I'm so excited about sharing it I've gotten used to pushing through. Completing projects is also a skill just like writing songs to begin with. I also started with composing mostly melancholic piano pieces before heading into the world of electronic chillout and melodic bass music in 2012 :)
A crutch when used correctly at the appropriate time of need is actually a pretty useful tool. Jokes aside another stellar vid with lots of thoughtful info.
I got stuck in the 4 bar loop for years and still do at times, but I've found that improving my understanding of music theory and working from the perspective of arrangement has helped break out of that habit. I will basically take a synthesizer vst (or a piano vst) and create a song in MIDI before doing anything else. So if I don't have a song that has a beginning, middle, and end then it's either keep trying to scrap it and start again. The hardest part is creating a melody and harmony that either leads into a chorus (or drop) or creating a melody and harmony that takes you out of the chorus (or drop). So now I try to think in a linear fashion from start to finish focusing on melody and harmony instead of thinking in terms of depth and creating a 4 bar loop with tons of layers and a repetitive melody or chord progression. The problem with the world of electronic music is people tend to learn about EQ and Compression before they learn about actual music - rhythm, harmony, melody, counter-melody etc. I made that mistake and now I'm really good at mixing but suck at creating actual interesting music.
@@KaylinB what I mean by working by arrangement is you focus purely on music composition from start to finish. Forget layering, mixing, sound design etc. Just focus on building melody and harmony for one section, then focus on doing the same for the following section. Essentially you're figuring out where you song is going by learning how to blend each second so that the melody changes or you add or remove certain melody or harmonic elements. You're basically writing a song from start to finish rather than just focusing on the chorus or drop and then trying to figure out how to build up to it or where it's going next. You can literally just use a piano vst for this, and then just apply the sounds you want to each melody or second.
The contrast between this incredibly thoughful and meaningful video on my tv and absolutely ignorant and offensive song I'm making on my laptop is really funny to me rn. Good vid btw. Subbed.
I have watched so many videos of people building a one bar, two bar, or four bar phrase or motif, then twiddling knobs to change to timbre of what’s going on. Some RUclipsrs are so good at doing it and they sound incredible. I really admire their skill, but I have sometimes wished they would write pieces of music, not just paint sound and rhythm scapes. I prefer melodic music myself. I am a classical guitarist who has just got into synthesisers. I sequence my synths with a Digitakt, which I use to compose melodic pieces. I’m not the best at it, but I’m getting better. Ironically I have learned how to use the Digitakt to compose by watching those RUclipsrs building and performing a one to four bar loop. I have watched a lot of your videos, even liked them, but I only just now realised that I wasn’t subscribed. Thank you for this video. I have just subscribed.
Hi Jameson! New subscriber here, just discovered you. This is a great topic for you to discuss. I hope you will continue more on it. I thought I was the only one in this loop, (but didn’t even know I was in an obvious loop, I thought it was only because of my lack of formal training) I even bought a Montage 8 to get serious about hopefully making at least one complete idea someday, but I am still looping alone here, although the Montage has certainly improved my loop creativity. Anyways, from the comments, I now see how normal this is and there may still be hope if I follow you and your book which I just got. Your expertise as a real pianist/composer and now synthesizer user is so much respected! Thanks so much to you and also, all of the great detailed comments on this, here, from others. 🙂🙂🙂 -steve (renewed motivation!🙂)
Seriously life-changing, you are incredibly gifted, thank you...Question: Have you released a track that is that (insanely cool) background in the intro of this video?
Thanks for making this video. I definitely fall into that ‘trap’. I’ll make a catchy segment, then immediately want to add other instruments to create a nice ‘sound’. But then it makes it difficult to go back and progress that initial segment. What’s been working for me recently is recording myself humming. The progressions flow much easier for me than banging away on instruments.
This is just fantastic, thank you for sharing these wonderful thoughts with us. I loved your analogies, very on point. Please more of this! There are not enough people on youtube (that I know of) speaking about composition or production in these terms. And I am kind of sick of videos that are just (or at least feel like) adverts of plugins/pedals/synths/whatever products or just show "production tricks", your channel feels like a breeze of fresh air.
Your knowledge, insight and humour in your videos is phenomenal. You made me realise why improvising using hardware synths in Ableton’s session view seemed to work so much better for me in the past for interesting song starters. The perfectionist in me wants to start the track in composition mode and that’s when things go generic, empty and downhill.
And there's me : Making random stuff, experimenting where I want to, saving useless projects... But I still manage to find new things. Takes time but I'll make my way out the cosmos
I've played guitar for 35 years. Improvisation came natural to me on it, and I have extended that to playing piano and synths. I know I then need to take an idea that came out of my improv and form that into a composition. That is the tough part. I can do it, but man it is not something I get excited about doing. But the end results of a full song are awesome and I am happy I spent the time composing. Thanks for your insights into the process.
I see the problem. There's at least two generations of people that grew up on loop-based music. This type of music comes with an aesthetic that's almost hostile towards key changes, complex melodies, changes in tempo or time signatures. The way the majority of daws work reinforces the idea of working towards making 4-bar loops. It's hard to break away from that. I find myself working out ideas in my head or on a guitar (for instance) before even switching on the computer.
Thank u! This was real helpsome, i guess i really stuck in too much free Plugins Instruments, chord creation stuff, apregiators, all that defocusing stuff when every knob/fader changes half the track. Really inspiring👍
A nice surprise. Excellent, concise and profound points that clarify a lot. What is Melody, the difference between composition and theory, the purpose of a 4 Bar Loop, the difference between improvising and composing. I learned a lot in a short amount of time and have downloaded your e-book. Great work!
I have spent many years trying to get out of the 4 - 8 bar loop hole and after extensive rearranging and use of all the tips and tricks I could get into my DAW, it still sounds like a 4 - 8 bar loop, just a longer one.
Some really good points here, and I particularly like your analogy of grammar (theory) and talking (improvisation) to reading (composition). This video is poignant to me right now, as I've been gathering together and writing down music composition techniques with an eye to composing my next pieces. The interesting to note is that when I look for examples of these techniques, I often find them in my own music. And then I realise I didn't even think about it at the time (more likely I thought that I was a 'fraud' or 'doing it all wrong'). In fact, contrary to sitting down and working stuff out using theory, often my ideas come to me from my subconscious, within dreams (and then I wake up and scramble to get my phone and press record - otherwise within 10 minutes, the idea's gone forever). So, maybe I should listen to myself here. And try composing by just playing anything, and see what comes out. As you say, improvising is great, but you use familiar vocabulary. Whereas random play might take you to new creative places.
Thank you so so much. I’m completely new to music, in my 40s with next to no theory and you’re completely unlocking my music creating potential. It will probably never be of any significance to anyone else, but I will benefit from the enjoyment this creativity brings. Thanks again, and please keep your excellent advice coming. Great presentation and I enjoy your style and sense of humour very much. 😊
Discovered you today. This video described what I have been doing for the past couple of years as I learn my craft. Improvise, craft using my formal music training, develop the structure/format, create interest, recreate what I have in FINALE (notation) which adds more refinement. Mix, Master. You have given me renewed confidence in this process. Thank you!
Interesting and down to earth. It's easy to get lost among all the new sounds. It is a liberation when you finally sit down and take hold of your chord progression and take it further on a journey that you rarely know how it will end. There is a lot hidden in a single chord. Four chords can be a treasure chest.
I have found my composition style to be going further and further into the realm of "through composed" as I get older. While I still use loops, instead of going the verse chorus verse route, the sections tend to either not repeat at all or after several parts it ends where it began. This style does not garner a large audience but the challenge is personally satisfying.
I've been writing electronic music since the end of the '80s, my setup was severely limited in the early days, but I always said, limitations breed creativity. I'm also big on melody, I knew about the question/answer thing back then; I never really think about it while I'm in the zone composing, but when I listen back afterwards, I can hear it clearly. Thanks for an awesome video, we're certainly on the same wavelength.
I have a game of limitation : - Classify your VST into type : Instrument/drums/effects/sampling, etc... - Choose a genra of music you want to make and a typical tracks number you'll need (2 drums, 2 bass, 1 lead synth, etc..) - For each track, from the type you already classify in your VST, randomly select one (with a dice or anything random) - Limit yourself to the specific VST - Then throw the dice again to see on wich preset you end up (if you'r on the bass track, choose among bass presets ofc) - Now imagine it's your instrument, you can twist a bit but you have to deal with it - You want an effect on it ? Randomly select one - And so on
I thought I learnt how to turn a loop into a song-length piece... and I've done that a number of times and became the basis of a track. But I struggled to do that yesterday and I didn't know why. I think I haven't really understood what I was doing when I did that - and you've helped me understand that I didn't understand that, I just had some tools and tricks that kinda worked most of the time. Thank you.
You legend. I massively enjoyed this. After finishing an album recently, I am at a crossroads and not sure what to work towards next. This has really helped to focus me again.
Thank you for both this video and the little composition guide. They were just what I needed. Since retiring I decided that I now had time to devote to music and my little home studio, as opposed when I spent time on software specifications and hanging around in planes between meetings. So far so good. I love music, and I also love technology. That's why I became a techie in the first place. So I have fallen down several music technology rabbit holes since then. While technology is fun it's pointless if it's not used for making music. I love my soft synths, not to mention my software pianos. I just love the piano sound and feel. Combined with a full 88 key, weighted, keyboard it kind of feels like the real thing. I have done some online courses in piano, and read plenty of music theory. Some of it is slowly starting to settle in my brain. I have done plenty of improvising, but never been able to remember the good stuff long enough to reproduce it. Plus I have kept up ending exactly in the place you describe. With a nice loop, and no idea of where to go from there. Thanks to you I have slowly been able to make some progress. I have tried to use the piano roll in Ableton Live, but I have never been able to become friends with it in a way that I could use it to jot down my ideas and work on them. I have also never been schooled in music notation, haven't learned how to read notes. But the music theory literature and music lessons seem to have finally given me a place to start. Inspired by you I figured I should give it a try, using Muse Score. A pretty simple, free, notation program, that's more than enough for me at my current level. It also has playback of your notes. I have found that using that I am actually able to take notes of my ideas and save them for later, and work on them. It's a whole new world. I don't think it would have happened without your help. I have watched a lot of other videos. While a lot of them have been very good and instructive none of them have talked about this stuff in a way that I could actually comprehend and use. Thank you.
what i often struggle with is hearing some chords imagine how it goes further and translate that to the piano, or been improvising and stop, then coming up with new ideas and then being unable to play those new ideas on the piano
I’m completely on board with your message. I’ve hated the 4 or 8 bar loop prison. I have always tried to make it at least 16 bars. 32 bars is my goal but to difficult to be practical. Great to have found your channel. You speak like an electrical engineer I know of, except it’s musical composition instead of circuits.
Yeah, I was wondering why the sudden change of topic. I would really love to see YOUR videos on composition as I know for a fact that you will provide a fresh approach, off the beaten track so to speak.
This is some really helpful advice. I just turned 40 and for years I wanted to write my own music, and thanks to the 2020 lockdown I decided to buy Ableton, while it all sounds amateur I’ve kept the music writing up, but it all sounds a little stale. I think this is going to help me breakout of my 4-8 bar rut. Thank you.
Your comments on improvisation and melody question/answer, more intense question, resolution all clicked for me. I've been wanting to organize all these raw clips of improvisation on trumpet and keyboard with some experimentation on guitar... Into a composition. This gives me the feeling I'm on the right track and not just lost diverging into some abyss of self-indulgence
I envy people when they express their ideas this freely. Because it means they reached a deep understanding of their craft or knowledge. Its not like the shallow knowledge when you just skem over a subject that you found interesting. Its always great to watch content from people like you. knowledge have many levels from its basic fluid form till it refined and crystallized form. And in it crystallized form in my opinion knowledge become a form of art.
Thanks for the kind words! Verbalizing things in this way is an excellent teacher as well, and I’ve really been enjoying delving into these topics again lately. A lot of it I often need to remind myself.
Best thing I ever did for my music, was getting over my laziness and actually developing my music, even small changes can make a big difference, it turns it into an actual song instead if just a loop repeating over and over. My music now is so much freaking better than it used to be because I actually have progression in it and different parts that are musically distinct but also related. It took a long time to get here though, probably hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of practice.
Interesting conversation. A few years ago, I moved out of my apartment and had to put everything in storage, including music studio and instruments. I was strictly a play your instrument/analog/ staff paper and pen guy. Left with only a crappy phone and some headphones, I found Bandlab, and off we went. There were immediate advantages (16 tracks, intuitive, etc.) and weaknesses (no good guitar sounds, lack of dynamics, etc.) but I could compose again. The technology itself has become how I currently express my creative impulses, and is necessary to the process: I can make the technology play things that are way beyond my abilities, and even make it play 'impossible' parts (like a drum beat with intricate ride and hihat parts simultaneously). It plays instruments that I can't. I don't play the violin, but this thing does. One of the interesting things that I did not anticipate was what I call the 'visual composition' aspect: when you kick off the recording, a tiny piano keyboard appears on the screen. It is impossible to actually play, so what I do is turn on the grid for each track and put the notes/beats in it. I 'visually' compose each track, matching up misplaced beats and clams through the editing process. This works especially well when I'm working in odd time signatures, as it's easier to visually line up the beats, rather than trying to count or 'feel' them in real time. A few times I've made pretty designs on the grid and the (granted, mostly terrible) stuff that comes out is nothing I ever would have come up with on strictly sonic grounds. As far as loops go, I was so reluctant to even try this in the beginning, because I was afraid of falling into that rut, that I very deliberately try to avoid it. Even if I loop a part, I go back to each track and make little changes. I'd love to talk more about this kind of stuff if anybody's doing something similar. Rock on
Great video - reminding me how I approached composition before Ableton loop mode. When it comes to composition, elaborating on choices made for leads, pads, percussion and how and why they work together, especially how they fit together rhythmically would be interesting to hear.
Having formally studied music years ago (then later going back to school to study engineering), I’ve been one that has leaned into the analytical side of it all. When it comes to composition, it’s really been a true “paralysis by analysis” for me. Even when I do go “mining” and find something worth developing, I find myself getting stuck worrying about “why” it works instead of letting go and allowing myself to develop the story. Anyway, the RUclips algorithm just landed me here and it looks like you’ll be talking more about composition - looking forward to more of it! Oh, and my primary instrument is guitar - for whatever reason, theory “clicked” for me on that fretboard. And as such, I do love minimalist voicings - my instrument of choice kinda’ forces that constraint on me. Ignoring the root, it’s often just two notes defining the voicing for me (often the third and seventh - maybe one more if want to throw away any ambiguity and make it clear it’s diminished or augmented).
Love this. This is the first video I've found of yours. I share a similar path -- classical (and jazz) musician who later found an interest in modern music technology. Thanks for the helpful tips! Also, just a fun thing -- I found your piano composition around 4:45 a little "Bartok-like" in its melodic simplicity, structure, and harmony -- which I mean as a big compliment! Loved it!
100%… thanks i’m not alone in this; finally i’ve realized that sequencing inside hardware boxes often limits a development of longer sequences, variations, as chaining these patterns and sequencing over them (on hardware) is endlessly tedious hence it forces a musician into the “loop trap”.
Well said! As your video exemplifies, one can have such a mastery over theory and musicianship but still struggle with putting it all together. One of my biggest takeaways from this video is this: I'm on the right track with setting some limitations - maybe "parameters" is another word that works. Ultimately, the listening experience and the draw for me to relisten are not always the same- I absolutely love your piano playing/composition via the pure piano. Between the lines the reality is setting in for me (as an aspiring composer) that the idea behind a "song" is the packaging to make it beg to be relistened to. A notion is being reinforced by your wisdom shared: those musical ideas from improvisation are still so important and even belong - in their more organic/from -the-heart instrumental qualities- they need to start at the heart of the song. So, even though I don't think you came right out and said it, I need to select my tempo and repetition based on where the musical phrasing leads me. I'm really starting to think, rather than always reporting on a drum machine I just need to tap in my percussion with the keyboard- initially over an improvised track to see where I can measure out those measures and tempo changes and sections. I'm glad RUclips led me to your channel, sir!
I thought I had reached saturation point with all the 'loopi-litus' videos I have seen, but you caught me off-guard and I got inspired! Yes please, more videos on composition and arrangement, from your point of view, would be great. Nice work, Man!
Can't believe I only just now found this channel. Possibly the most lucid intro to composition I've seen on the internet that's also appealing to folks who've actually tried to compose. I relate so hard to the listening to that 4 bar phrase over and over. Thank you (p.s. I stopped reading books on music theory all together probably 10 years ago. Best thing I could've done form my writing ;)
that piano example was amazing
I have a bunch of techniques to escape loop hell:
- Improvise on top of the whole song and keep/improve parts that fit!
- Hum melodies on top of the whole song!
- Mix patterns with various lengths! Don't avoid odd lengths! They'll simply loop over a longer time.
- Stand up and move to the beat while working! This one probably makes the biggest difference.
Thank you. Just took a screenshot of this
Great tips, thank you! The one about humming over the top of a WIP is something I do constantly. Melodies that are lyrical and singable are not always the goal, but when they are, this is a really useful way to develop them.
Excellent excellent :) thanks
Absolutely yes! I sometimes take a break and do something else and then a random variation comes into my head & I quickly get that down sometimes even replacing my original idea
The humming sounds like a Keith Jarrett influence 🙂
As a musician who has spent the last 15 years or so languishing in the 4-8 bar loop hell, thank you for trying to save others from this creative purgatory.
Same. Almost exactly 15 years ago, I bought FL Studio (aka Fruityloops)and began slowly filling up folders with 4-8 bar "songs". Some I kinda liked and attempted to stretch into actual songs, but most were abandoned.
My theory was that it just got too easy to make loops. You spend 45 minutes kinda jammin out and it comes together so easily, that the next step of stretching it out feels more like work than fun. I think it also hurts that the very nature of a loop is that it resolves back into itself and doesn't always have a logical place to go.
Back in the day, when I was recording stuff on a 4 track, you had to do the hard work up front and have the overall outline of the song somewhat fleshed out. You could easily spend hours working on a song before ever recording anything.
@@applebutter4036 That's an interesting point. I wonder if there is an opportunity out there for a software developer to create a tool that makes the "stretching it out" portion of the composing more fun
@@maxrice6990 Could be and I love the idea. It doesn't even have to be fun. Maybe just a tool with a handful of parameters that can instantly lay out whatever patterns/samples you have into a basic song structure.
Don’t feel bad brother, you’re not alone, actually most of us are down here.
@@applebutter4036 All good points. It might also be that people who get lost in loops and seqs don't play an instrument. Pop music these days avoid middle eights/choruses/bridges, as we all know. I think because it's even hard to do for the pros let alone non-players.
Writing a 16 bar chord progression was the best thing I ever did in my life.
You clearly have no life.
it's so satisfying because it gets easier :) keep going guys
i got scaler 2 for quick and nice chord progressions......listened to all 200+ chord presets and there is not one progession with 5+ different chords that i like
@@snubdawg1386 go to the channel Musician Paradise he has free chord progressions for a free chord app called Rip Chord amazing progressions in various genres. Also works for the MPC Live.
@@snubdawg1386 You know I'm gonna say do it yourself ;)
Thanks!
Thank you, Keith!
Me again - your new sub. Love the dry humour in your videos.
And yes more on composition philosophy. I think that's what's missing in a lot of electronic music. I watch videos of folks who mastered their DAW, know intricate details of sound design etc, but when checking out their music, it doesn't connect. That's where the tried and tested musical theories come in, as you said. Storytelling with music.
that introduction was the most relatable thing i've heard in my 6 yrs of producing stuff
I am a classically trained bassoonist, and a jazz saxophone player, along with guitar for fun and various other hobby instruments. Got my bachelor's degree in music 9 years ago and have found myself stuck in the 4-bar loop rut for years inside my DAW. Recently I've made it a point to map out, at least roughly, the different elements of a track before fully fleshing out the "drop" or the "chorus", etc. I have this horrible tendency to start with the main part of the song and then scrutinize every little minute detail of those 4-16 bars until I'm sick of hearing it and realize I don't have a song nor a vision for one anymore.
You forgot to mention: "THE MIDI PACK!"
Seriously though, very interesting video topic on something I'm struggling with myself. I'll be downloading your Guide Book shortly, thanks!
I learned how to make music on youtube via FL Studio tutorials starting 15 years ago. This is one of the first videos regarding music I have watched in many years that didn't feel introductory or shallow. You didn't insult the viewers intelligence and you recognize that different musicians approach things in different ways. You introduce a concept via narration and then immediately perform a demonstration to communicate with musicians who lack the composition vocabulary to engage with the spoken content. You didnt flex gear or name drop or grandstand. You'd think I would love music youtube considering my background but beyond a certain level of music experience finding engaging content becomes near impossible. Im glad I stumbled into this video!
Subbed! i rlly look forward to what you post next
I appreciate that! 🙏
top tier feedback we need more if you
As an amateur music creator, who still has a lot to learn with my instrumental skills and production, this video has been incredibly helpful. It’s easy to get lost in production and forget about the direction I’m trying to go in, and this video really inspired me at a low point 🙏
Thank you! Glad it was helpful :)
Hey Jameson this isnt about the video, which is great, but more about your music and I can't message you on spotify so... here it goes. I initially discovered you by watching your synth reviews as I was shopping for new equipment. Watched you for a while and because you never promoted it, not that I picked up on at least, I had no idea you had albums out. It was when I saw one of your improvs and thought to myself, "this is awesome I wish there was more" and decided to see if by chance you had a spotify that I found your catalog. All that back story was to say this; your music is *%#%ing incredible. Your newest album "Somewhat The Same" hit me hard man. Your experience, music-education and personal voice really show in your compositions and I have become a huge fan. It really takes me somewhere I need to go and after 4 decades of music I can say it is rare I have an emotional response to music like I did when I was younger and everything was new. I hope you see this, thank you for sharing your gift and making music your chosen path in life. Your decision to do so has certainly enriched my life as a result. To everyone else, if you are seeing this thinking this is just a youtube personality, do yourself a favor and look his music up, like now. Much love.
I appreciate this more than you know. 🙏 Thank you!
Thank you for not trying to sell me a concept but rather to propose an idea intended to inspire creativity. Refreshing!
Yes, please more content about composition. Very interesting to understand how a classically trained pianist compose electronic music.
Hi Jameson! Gratefully and happily, I just found your RUclips Channel. This particular video was the first (so far) that I've watched. I like what I heard, both in your explanation of the term "composition" and the music that you compose. Since this is the first video of yours that I watched, I hope that there are others dealing with music composition. If not, then please produce more.
Yes. . . I'm a composer as well. Earned my happy Bachelors in Music degree over 40 years ago (around the time when MIDI was being developed and before it was made available to the general public). So, I also started composing using "pencil to blank manuscript paper", which I still do today at times. I share the same thoughts and concerns that you share in this particular video regarding music technology. All of the wonderful tools associated with modern electronic music technology (including DAWs, keyboard controllers, synthesizers, etc., etc.) are helpful for the composer in developing and implementing ideas. However, one can easily lose focus being surrounded by all of these "tools". So, I force myself to compose using "pencil to blank manuscript paper". Actually, I use a music notation program and (attempt to) develop my compositions using this computer-based tool (with the help of the MIDI keyboard controller).
What I WANT to do is develop my compositional skills. It's been 40+ years since I graduated from music college with a degree in Music Composition (from Berklee College of Music, if that means anything). Since that time, I got a degree (two degrees, actually) in nursing, and been an RN for over 30 years. Although I still compose music, it's taken a back seat to work, and to life in general. Going back to music college is WAY too Expensive! So, I'm looking for alternatives. Mentorship? Joining a group of composers that challenge each other with projects? Basically, I want to regain focus in composing music and exploring new compositional ideas (and tools). Please feel free to offer any suggestions. In the meantime, I wish you well!
Kind Regards,
Ted
my advice for people who can't escape the loop would be: don't be scared of something that doesn't immediatly sound great. just sketch out all of your ideas and refine them when the time has come. you'll notice when that is
you are everywhere!! love your content, its cool to see you around
thank you :)
I've found this helpful to me. Music technology allows me musical vomit on the DAW and then clean up later. The action of creating and refining is different brain functions that work better individually.
YES YES A MILLION TIMES YES. This is life saving advice.
thank you for reinforcing that I'm already doing the right stuff 👏🏻
Okay, rewatching this one already. It's fantastic. It fulfills a real gap in the synth community - addressing composition, not from a purely musical theory boring approach, but in the sense of taking an idea from an initial strong loop or segment and actually taking it that next step. No one is really talking about this, but it's what makes something like your track "Could" so great. It's not just a nice repeated jam where you open and close the filter on your synth. You actually composed something.
The biggest obstacle - this is work. Most of us have day jobs, use synths to relax. And yet if we really want to express ourselves, we have to do this work.
Do you find it to be effortful as well, or does the composition process also feel as playful as the initial idea? Do we just have to grind our way through it or is there a way to breathe excitement into it?
Can't wait to see where you go with this.
Thanks Michael!
It’s definitely work - just like any discipline that’s really worth doing, but it does become easier to generate stronger ideas the more you do it. The more practice you’ve put in, the more tools you have in your toolbox. There’s no ceiling on learning though, so when you get better I certain areas, new challenges reveal themselves.
My advice would be to not get frustrated that it’s difficult, but to enjoy the process as you get better at certain things. You can enjoy the cool things you come up with while also realizing there’s always room for growth.
@@JamesonNathanJones Great advice! Thank you.
I have a day job, too, and working on music is my time to relax and set my mind - or what is left of it! - free.
If it's work for you without fun, just find another hobby or be contempt with opening and closing filters on a synth, alternatively reevaluate what you consider fun and practice enjoying activities with delayed rewards.
@@terryriley6410 I was specifically talking about the composition aspect. Go back and reread my comment, and what I said about being willing to embrace that. It seems you misunderstood.
Thank you for helping me not put the impossible weight of composition on my improvisations! Loved the mining analogy.
I've been writing music professionally for almost 20 years and my number one tip is to use anything you just come up with. My (in my opinion) best music comes from singing random stuff when I do something completely unrelated like cleaning, making food, walking the dog etc. Just record it on your phone, even if it's stupid. And then visualize (if you can) in your head how the drums go, how the bass line works with the beat and add stuff from there. Don't rush it though, because often you keep getting stuck. Make sure you have at least a line for a chorus or a verse and usually everything just falls into place.
One of my songs landed on the Japanese billboard and it started out with the line (translated from Swedish to English) "your parents are brilliant at convincing you that they loved you while you were wearing bracers".
That is a good tip. I started doing this recently, and it helped a lot. I’d come up with a good idea (for me) in the car or somewhere random and just started recording myself humming it out it different ways, as if it was just any song stuck in my head.
It took me a while to realize that an idea I had might be fleeting and never come to me again. The practice of simply recording when inspired really kept a lot of creative doors open that previously were lost to forgetfulness.
Unfortunately, many of my potentially best ideas happen in places like the shower where I haven’t yet figured out how to record effectively before I towel off and lose it!
@@JayM928 Waterproof phone 😉
Did it make No 1 in the Japanese charts by any chance ? I can't stop humming it to myself now !
Trap and Hip Hop Producer here. Who is also a classical pianist from a young age. And this is exactly what I needed right now.
Agree. I use notation software and that gives a much more visual workflow than midi notes on a piano roll, especially If you are working with more than one instrument, it's so easy to see how they are interacting.
Thank you. This simple video for some reason connected so many loose ends in my understanding of music writing. Extremely valuable.
Thanks David! Glad it was helpful
"It's that idea about giving someone a fish vs teaching them how to make their own fish idea" LOL. Amazing. Not only did you provide lots of fantastic musical inspiration and direction, but the dry jokes were on point. Thank you Jameson!
yes!! I completely agree!! tell that to whoever it was, a few weeks back, who couldn't resist taking a sincere dig at doctor jones's jokes as he complimented the over all content of his vids. ("you call him doctor jones, lady!!")
I used to find my creativity flowed better pre-DAW, e.g. when playing natural tempo changes and pauses...now I have to mess about with flex time and play to a click bla bla, it's taken some of those organic changes out.
Thanks for sharing this- and also showing your pianist side. Those little playing moments gave the video a really warm and honest feeling and - in a positive way - are a counterpoint to the "standard" RUclips music production style. It reminded me of how I sometimes listen to music from let's say the 70s or earlier and feel like "oh wow, those people actually used composition and songwriting" compared to the loopy/more sound based style of today. I think it would be awesome to hear more about you transforming from a classically trained musician to an electronic one, especially your observations on how to integrate your "old" experiences into the new territory. I feel like it's quite a challenge to find a good balance between being instrumentalist and producer, although in theory it feels like it should give you so many advantages. Your channel is really inspiring, thanks 💚
Oh yes please! More about composition is definitely needed. Very good video, and the analogies were illuminating.
Recently discovered your channel and I love your sense of humor and approach to sharing the music stuff with us all. Very relatable for me, in a lot of ways, thank you!!
as someone who drafted with paper and pencil up through grad school and since then has made more music via a DAW than otherwise, I completely relate to looking back and feeling that my composition chops were stronger back then. lately, I've been trying to balance the strengths of both approaches. this really resonated with me!
Incredible video. Just what I needed to hear! Thank you Jameson
Thanks Ricky! Means a lot!
So getting this...I've avoided DAW as I am also a piano player and am used to live performance. I've recently stopped using my sequencers on volcas for the basic reason that it feels more live...see how it goes. This is really useful thank you
I think your focus on composition as it pertains to electronic music is uniquely higher-level and a big reason why I've subbed. Thanks for the awesome content.
It's actually a completely different perspective to those composers who learned to compose music THROUGH midi/sequencers rather than the classical approach of writing to sheet. But I'm at a point where I feel as if I begin learning to write in sheet rather than in midi, alot more new ideas will flow for me, for example writing in musescore rather than a traditional DAW
Such a good channel. You have a breadth of knowledge. Please don't sacrifice that quality for views! Only reason I say that is because other RUclipsrs have done that! Protect this man at all costs!
Super helpful video! Thank you for this!
Totally agree. Too many options tear your music apart. It stops to be musical, it starts to be more technical and leads you to nowhere. Eventually I return to a pencil, a paper and piano sound.
Hell yes, more please! The "theory of composition" rather than "theory and composition" (if that makes sense) is absolutely my jam, and you discuss it in a really great, accesible and entertaining way. I am excited for what you do next, whichever direction you go in :)
Re: getting stuck in improvisation, some things that have helped me:
- Change key; each key has a unique sound, so it might help spur new ideas
- Likewise improvise over different chord progressions; not just I-IV-V to I-IV-V-III but something varying wildly
- Using some electronic techniques: Try different instrument presets. If you usually improv with a dark lead, try it with an arp; if you tend to prefer plucks, try something with some portamento
Interesting topic! Thanks for starting this convo. I've never reviewed the piano roll in DAWs as written music that can be edited.
From my perspective a Hip-Hop & Soul music Songwriter and producer, I believe DAWs further influences "loop culture" without much variation or none. Sequencers are typically set to a certain amount of measures that then gets loops. The presentation of sequencers influence the notion that loop is the end all be all loop.
very thought provoking talk. the notion that many of us are simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of options and choices available to us these days is brilliant. surely music composition isn't just about dragging and rearranging loops ableton live (a kind of musical paint by numbers). nor is it about creating two bar loops that sound good but go nowhere. and, in particular, it is not about some AI algorithm analyzing a body of compositions and coming with a facsimile. you can't put the music technology genie back in its bottle but, as you say, you can limit yourself and your range of options to focus your mind on what is really important. this is a great start and a must watch for aspiring writers caught in a tech rut with no idea of how to move forward. thanks
A lot of good points, and extremely useful. Theory vs composition. Mine your improvs. Question and answer melodies. And your own compositions and playing - breathtaking. This is great.
Good stuff, buddy. First time here and now subbed (and I don’t even really compose anymore 😊)
Thank you for this essay. The Q+A analogy really opens up things for me - it's really a beautiful abstraction that embraces not only things like song structure (AABA etc), but also things like changes in dynamic, texture and other building blocks. I feel really inspired - thank you!
Love how you break it down to brass tacks and waste no time. Super inspiring, thanks for this !
The computer is it’s own class of instrument. The best producers play the DAW instead of “playing in the DAW”
I've been producing and composing for 13 years now. I started at 17 and now I'm almosr 31. It's been my full-time job for 7 years. I have a lot of tricks up my sleeve on how to complete ideas before getting tired of my ideas. I use a lot of filters and transpose the scales while mixing and then before the final day of mixing I go clean and mix every individual instrument until it's "good". I still might be very used to the song but I'm so excited about sharing it I've gotten used to pushing through. Completing projects is also a skill just like writing songs to begin with. I also started with composing mostly melancholic piano pieces before heading into the world of electronic chillout and melodic bass music in 2012 :)
A crutch when used correctly at the appropriate time of need is actually a pretty useful tool. Jokes aside another stellar vid with lots of thoughtful info.
The problem is when someone with otherwise healthy legs uses a crutch so much that their legs atrophy
I got stuck in the 4 bar loop for years and still do at times, but I've found that improving my understanding of music theory and working from the perspective of arrangement has helped break out of that habit. I will basically take a synthesizer vst (or a piano vst) and create a song in MIDI before doing anything else. So if I don't have a song that has a beginning, middle, and end then it's either keep trying to scrap it and start again. The hardest part is creating a melody and harmony that either leads into a chorus (or drop) or creating a melody and harmony that takes you out of the chorus (or drop). So now I try to think in a linear fashion from start to finish focusing on melody and harmony instead of thinking in terms of depth and creating a 4 bar loop with tons of layers and a repetitive melody or chord progression. The problem with the world of electronic music is people tend to learn about EQ and Compression before they learn about actual music - rhythm, harmony, melody, counter-melody etc. I made that mistake and now I'm really good at mixing but suck at creating actual interesting music.
what exactly do you mean by working from the perspective of arrangement ?? Any resources u have I could use to learn about what you're saying ??
@@KaylinB what I mean by working by arrangement is you focus purely on music composition from start to finish. Forget layering, mixing, sound design etc. Just focus on building melody and harmony for one section, then focus on doing the same for the following section. Essentially you're figuring out where you song is going by learning how to blend each second so that the melody changes or you add or remove certain melody or harmonic elements. You're basically writing a song from start to finish rather than just focusing on the chorus or drop and then trying to figure out how to build up to it or where it's going next. You can literally just use a piano vst for this, and then just apply the sounds you want to each melody or second.
The contrast between this incredibly thoughful and meaningful video on my tv and absolutely ignorant and offensive song I'm making on my laptop is really funny to me rn. Good vid btw. Subbed.
Maybe the most compelling “how to” music composition video I’ve ever seen. And the most beautiful background music. Smashing.
I have watched so many videos of people building a one bar, two bar, or four bar phrase or motif, then twiddling knobs to change to timbre of what’s going on. Some RUclipsrs are so good at doing it and they sound incredible. I really admire their skill, but I have sometimes wished they would write pieces of music, not just paint sound and rhythm scapes.
I prefer melodic music myself. I am a classical guitarist who has just got into synthesisers. I sequence my synths with a Digitakt, which I use to compose melodic pieces. I’m not the best at it, but I’m getting better. Ironically I have learned how to use the Digitakt to compose by watching those RUclipsrs building and performing a one to four bar loop.
I have watched a lot of your videos, even liked them, but I only just now realised that I wasn’t subscribed. Thank you for this video. I have just subscribed.
Hi Jameson! New subscriber here, just discovered you. This is a great topic for you to discuss. I hope you will continue more on it. I thought I was the only one in this loop, (but didn’t even know I was in an obvious loop, I thought it was only because of my lack of formal training) I even bought a Montage 8 to get serious about hopefully making at least one complete idea someday, but I am still looping alone here, although the Montage has certainly improved my loop creativity. Anyways, from the comments, I now see how normal this is and there may still be hope if I follow you and your book which I just got. Your expertise as a real pianist/composer and now synthesizer user is so much respected! Thanks so much to you and also, all of the great detailed comments on this, here, from others. 🙂🙂🙂 -steve (renewed motivation!🙂)
Seriously life-changing, you are incredibly gifted, thank you...Question: Have you released a track that is that (insanely cool) background in the intro of this video?
Thanks for making this video. I definitely fall into that ‘trap’. I’ll make a catchy segment, then immediately want to add other instruments to create a nice ‘sound’. But then it makes it difficult to go back and progress that initial segment. What’s been working for me recently is recording myself humming. The progressions flow much easier for me than banging away on instruments.
This is just fantastic, thank you for sharing these wonderful thoughts with us. I loved your analogies, very on point. Please more of this! There are not enough people on youtube (that I know of) speaking about composition or production in these terms. And I am kind of sick of videos that are just (or at least feel like) adverts of plugins/pedals/synths/whatever products or just show "production tricks", your channel feels like a breeze of fresh air.
I really appreciate that, Pablo!
Your knowledge, insight and humour in your videos is phenomenal. You made me realise why improvising using hardware synths in Ableton’s session view seemed to work so much better for me in the past for interesting song starters. The perfectionist in me wants to start the track in composition mode and that’s when things go generic, empty and downhill.
And there's me : Making random stuff, experimenting where I want to, saving useless projects... But I still manage to find new things. Takes time but I'll make my way out the cosmos
More of this please
There are so many of my playlists I have to put your content in. You stretch across so many things in your video which I mean in the best way possible
I've played guitar for 35 years. Improvisation came natural to me on it, and I have extended that to playing piano and synths. I know I then need to take an idea that came out of my improv and form that into a composition. That is the tough part. I can do it, but man it is not something I get excited about doing. But the end results of a full song are awesome and I am happy I spent the time composing. Thanks for your insights into the process.
WOW! Thank you for your art...LOVE your channel! Keep on keeping ON
Man what a great balance between talent, editing, and content. Great ideas, thanks for this
Wow, your videos are relay changing the way I’m thinking about my work.
In a very productive way! Thank you!
I see the problem. There's at least two generations of people that grew up on loop-based music. This type of music comes with an aesthetic that's almost hostile towards key changes, complex melodies, changes in tempo or time signatures. The way the majority of daws work reinforces the idea of working towards making 4-bar loops. It's hard to break away from that. I find myself working out ideas in my head or on a guitar (for instance) before even switching on the computer.
Thank u! This was real helpsome, i guess i really stuck in too much free Plugins Instruments, chord creation stuff, apregiators, all that defocusing stuff when every knob/fader changes half the track. Really inspiring👍
A nice surprise. Excellent, concise and profound points that clarify a lot. What is Melody, the difference between composition and theory, the purpose of a 4 Bar Loop, the difference between improvising and composing. I learned a lot in a short amount of time and have downloaded your e-book. Great work!
I have spent many years trying to get out of the 4 - 8 bar loop hole and after extensive rearranging and use of all the tips and tricks I could get into my DAW, it still sounds like a 4 - 8 bar loop, just a longer one.
Some really good points here, and I particularly like your analogy of grammar (theory) and talking (improvisation) to reading (composition). This video is poignant to me right now, as I've been gathering together and writing down music composition techniques with an eye to composing my next pieces.
The interesting to note is that when I look for examples of these techniques, I often find them in my own music. And then I realise I didn't even think about it at the time (more likely I thought that I was a 'fraud' or 'doing it all wrong').
In fact, contrary to sitting down and working stuff out using theory, often my ideas come to me from my subconscious, within dreams (and then I wake up and scramble to get my phone and press record - otherwise within 10 minutes, the idea's gone forever).
So, maybe I should listen to myself here. And try composing by just playing anything, and see what comes out. As you say, improvising is great, but you use familiar vocabulary. Whereas random play might take you to new creative places.
Thank you so so much. I’m completely new to music, in my 40s with next to no theory and you’re completely unlocking my music creating potential. It will probably never be of any significance to anyone else, but I will benefit from the enjoyment this creativity brings. Thanks again, and please keep your excellent advice coming. Great presentation and I enjoy your style and sense of humour very much. 😊
Discovered you today. This video described what I have been doing for the past couple of years as I learn my craft.
Improvise, craft using my formal music training, develop the structure/format, create interest, recreate what I have in FINALE (notation) which adds more refinement. Mix, Master.
You have given me renewed confidence in this process. Thank you!
Interesting and down to earth.
It's easy to get lost among all the new sounds.
It is a liberation when you finally sit down and take hold of your chord progression and take it further on a journey that you rarely know how it will end. There is a lot hidden in a single chord. Four chords can be a treasure chest.
Thank you for telling us a bit about your musical background and journey. I would love to see more content like this. Fantastic video!
Brillaint and very helpful. Getting back into writing after an extended burnout, largely from being stuck in loops
I have found my composition style to be going further and further into the realm of "through composed" as I get older. While I still use loops, instead of going the verse chorus verse route, the sections tend to either not repeat at all or after several parts it ends where it began. This style does not garner a large audience but the challenge is personally satisfying.
Nice video. Well explained and great playing.
Thank you 🙏
I've been writing electronic music since the end of the '80s, my setup was severely limited in the early days, but I always said, limitations breed creativity. I'm also big on melody, I knew about the question/answer thing back then; I never really think about it while I'm in the zone composing, but when I listen back afterwards, I can hear it clearly. Thanks for an awesome video, we're certainly on the same wavelength.
what a great video and awesome music. I hit the bell for sure, thanks for sharing, cheers from France !
I have a game of limitation :
- Classify your VST into type : Instrument/drums/effects/sampling, etc...
- Choose a genra of music you want to make and a typical tracks number you'll need (2 drums, 2 bass, 1 lead synth, etc..)
- For each track, from the type you already classify in your VST, randomly select one (with a dice or anything random)
- Limit yourself to the specific VST
- Then throw the dice again to see on wich preset you end up (if you'r on the bass track, choose among bass presets ofc)
- Now imagine it's your instrument, you can twist a bit but you have to deal with it
- You want an effect on it ? Randomly select one
- And so on
I thought I learnt how to turn a loop into a song-length piece... and I've done that a number of times and became the basis of a track. But I struggled to do that yesterday and I didn't know why. I think I haven't really understood what I was doing when I did that - and you've helped me understand that I didn't understand that, I just had some tools and tricks that kinda worked most of the time. Thank you.
You legend. I massively enjoyed this. After finishing an album recently, I am at a crossroads and not sure what to work towards next. This has really helped to focus me again.
Thank you for both this video and the little composition guide. They were just what I needed. Since retiring I decided that I now had time to devote to music and my little home studio, as opposed when I spent time on software specifications and hanging around in planes between meetings. So far so good. I love music, and I also love technology. That's why I became a techie in the first place. So I have fallen down several music technology rabbit holes since then. While technology is fun it's pointless if it's not used for making music. I love my soft synths, not to mention my software pianos. I just love the piano sound and feel. Combined with a full 88 key, weighted, keyboard it kind of feels like the real thing. I have done some online courses in piano, and read plenty of music theory. Some of it is slowly starting to settle in my brain. I have done plenty of improvising, but never been able to remember the good stuff long enough to reproduce it. Plus I have kept up ending exactly in the place you describe. With a nice loop, and no idea of where to go from there. Thanks to you I have slowly been able to make some progress. I have tried to use the piano roll in Ableton Live, but I have never been able to become friends with it in a way that I could use it to jot down my ideas and work on them. I have also never been schooled in music notation, haven't learned how to read notes. But the music theory literature and music lessons seem to have finally given me a place to start. Inspired by you I figured I should give it a try, using Muse Score. A pretty simple, free, notation program, that's more than enough for me at my current level. It also has playback of your notes. I have found that using that I am actually able to take notes of my ideas and save them for later, and work on them. It's a whole new world. I don't think it would have happened without your help. I have watched a lot of other videos. While a lot of them have been very good and instructive none of them have talked about this stuff in a way that I could actually comprehend and use. Thank you.
what i often struggle with is hearing some chords imagine how it goes further and translate that to the piano, or been improvising and stop, then coming up with new ideas and then being unable to play those new ideas on the piano
man you're hitting the spot for me! this really resonates!! thank you!! keep it up!
great video! watched it with a friend and we had such a good time!
Bro! The Answer and Question concept literally cured me of 4 bar looping!! Thank you. I subbed ya 😁
I’m completely on board with your message. I’ve hated the 4 or 8 bar loop prison. I have always tried to make it at least 16 bars. 32 bars is my goal but to difficult to be practical. Great to have found your channel. You speak like an electrical engineer I know of, except it’s musical composition instead of circuits.
Yeah, I was wondering why the sudden change of topic. I would really love to see YOUR videos on composition as I know for a fact that you will provide a fresh approach, off the beaten track so to speak.
This is some really helpful advice. I just turned 40 and for years I wanted to write my own music, and thanks to the 2020 lockdown I decided to buy Ableton, while it all sounds amateur I’ve kept the music writing up, but it all sounds a little stale. I think this is going to help me breakout of my 4-8 bar rut. Thank you.
Fantastic video. Thank you! Would love to see more of these, will download the book.
More to come!
Your comments on improvisation and melody question/answer, more intense question, resolution all clicked for me. I've been wanting to organize all these raw clips of improvisation on trumpet and keyboard with some experimentation on guitar... Into a composition. This gives me the feeling I'm on the right track and not just lost diverging into some abyss of self-indulgence
I envy people when they express their ideas this freely. Because it means they reached a deep understanding of their craft or knowledge. Its not like the shallow knowledge when you just skem over a subject that you found interesting. Its always great to watch content from people like you.
knowledge have many levels from its basic fluid form till it refined and crystallized form.
And in it crystallized form in my opinion knowledge become a form of art.
Thanks for the kind words! Verbalizing things in this way is an excellent teacher as well, and I’ve really been enjoying delving into these topics again lately. A lot of it I often need to remind myself.
Best thing I ever did for my music, was getting over my laziness and actually developing my music, even small changes can make a big difference, it turns it into an actual song instead if just a loop repeating over and over. My music now is so much freaking better than it used to be because I actually have progression in it and different parts that are musically distinct but also related. It took a long time to get here though, probably hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of practice.
how do u learn how to make a progression throughout
Interesting conversation. A few years ago, I moved out of my apartment and had to put everything in storage, including music studio and instruments. I was strictly a play your instrument/analog/ staff paper and pen guy.
Left with only a crappy phone and some headphones, I found Bandlab, and off we went. There were immediate advantages (16 tracks, intuitive, etc.) and weaknesses (no good guitar sounds, lack of dynamics, etc.) but I could compose again. The technology itself has become how I currently express my creative impulses, and is necessary to the process: I can make the technology play things that are way beyond my abilities, and even make it play 'impossible' parts (like a drum beat with intricate ride and hihat parts simultaneously). It plays instruments that I can't. I don't play the violin, but this thing does.
One of the interesting things that I did not anticipate was what I call the 'visual composition' aspect: when you kick off the recording, a tiny piano keyboard appears on the screen. It is impossible to actually play, so what I do is turn on the grid for each track and put the notes/beats in it. I 'visually' compose each track, matching up misplaced beats and clams through the editing process. This works especially well when I'm working in odd time signatures, as it's easier to visually line up the beats, rather than trying to count or 'feel' them in real time. A few times I've made pretty designs on the grid and the (granted, mostly terrible) stuff that comes out is nothing I ever would have come up with on strictly sonic grounds.
As far as loops go, I was so reluctant to even try this in the beginning, because I was afraid of falling into that rut, that I very deliberately try to avoid it. Even if I loop a part, I go back to each track and make little changes.
I'd love to talk more about this kind of stuff if anybody's doing something similar.
Rock on
Great video - reminding me how I approached composition before Ableton loop mode. When it comes to composition, elaborating on choices made for leads, pads, percussion and how and why they work together, especially how they fit together rhythmically would be interesting to hear.
Having formally studied music years ago (then later going back to school to study engineering), I’ve been one that has leaned into the analytical side of it all. When it comes to composition, it’s really been a true “paralysis by analysis” for me. Even when I do go “mining” and find something worth developing, I find myself getting stuck worrying about “why” it works instead of letting go and allowing myself to develop the story. Anyway, the RUclips algorithm just landed me here and it looks like you’ll be talking more about composition - looking forward to more of it!
Oh, and my primary instrument is guitar - for whatever reason, theory “clicked” for me on that fretboard. And as such, I do love minimalist voicings - my instrument of choice kinda’ forces that constraint on me. Ignoring the root, it’s often just two notes defining the voicing for me (often the third and seventh - maybe one more if want to throw away any ambiguity and make it clear it’s diminished or augmented).
Love this. This is the first video I've found of yours. I share a similar path -- classical (and jazz) musician who later found an interest in modern music technology. Thanks for the helpful tips!
Also, just a fun thing -- I found your piano composition around 4:45 a little "Bartok-like" in its melodic simplicity, structure, and harmony -- which I mean as a big compliment! Loved it!
100%… thanks i’m not alone in this; finally i’ve realized that sequencing inside hardware boxes often limits a development of longer sequences, variations, as chaining these patterns and sequencing over them (on hardware) is endlessly tedious hence it forces a musician into the “loop trap”.
Well said! As your video exemplifies, one can have such a mastery over theory and musicianship but still struggle with putting it all together. One of my biggest takeaways from this video is this: I'm on the right track with setting some limitations - maybe "parameters" is another word that works. Ultimately, the listening experience and the draw for me to relisten are not always the same- I absolutely love your piano playing/composition via the pure piano. Between the lines the reality is setting in for me (as an aspiring composer) that the idea behind a "song" is the packaging to make it beg to be relistened to. A notion is being reinforced by your wisdom shared: those musical ideas from improvisation are still so important and even belong - in their more organic/from -the-heart instrumental qualities- they need to start at the heart of the song. So, even though I don't think you came right out and said it, I need to select my tempo and repetition based on where the musical phrasing leads me.
I'm really starting to think, rather than always reporting on a drum machine I just need to tap in my percussion with the keyboard- initially over an improvised track to see where I can measure out those measures and tempo changes and sections. I'm glad RUclips led me to your channel, sir!
I thought I had reached saturation point with all the 'loopi-litus' videos I have seen, but you caught me off-guard and I got inspired! Yes please, more videos on composition and arrangement, from your point of view, would be great. Nice work, Man!
Can't believe I only just now found this channel. Possibly the most lucid intro to composition I've seen on the internet that's also appealing to folks who've actually tried to compose. I relate so hard to the listening to that 4 bar phrase over and over. Thank you (p.s. I stopped reading books on music theory all together probably 10 years ago. Best thing I could've done form my writing ;)