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Ramp agent here. Wing walkers have no idea what other planes are doing as they have no communication with ATC and usually, either a mechanic or the push driver has one-way communication with the Pilots. It is like playing telephone. Info gets lost as it goes from ATC to the Pilots to then the Mechanic to then the Pushback driver. At the end of the day, if the pushback aircraft was to make contact with the taxing aircraft the two wing walkers and the pushback driver would have lost their jobs. The push crew has no idea if the plane in the taxiway is going to turn into the alley or if they are just passing by. We stop aircraft all the time just to see what the other plane is going to do. If we see that it will be an issue we wait if we see them move we continue.
And there it is. Bugs me how people regularly show up on these videos and want to "pick a side" because it's fun to have wild-a** opinions about things that are well above our pay grade. Then when a bonafide expert shows up and gets the heart from OP (if he's lucky), it gets drowned out in the sea of random RUclips babble.
This comment should be pinned. Spot on. Wing walkers didn’t know what the plane was doing. Envoy was being too Karen with ATC and ATC was mad that Envoy thought he ran the taxiways.
@@navy_flyer2331 the person making these videos is not a native English speakers, but even if they were, many native English speakers have often admitted in comments they have difficulty understanding air traffic communications. If you can do better, make your own channel, as LiveATC recordings are available to everyone.
@@LjL-Videos Hiya. Yes sure. I was making an observational question. Navy_flyer made a valid reflection regarding transcriptions and someone using your account seemed insulted and to reply in a hostile manner telling NF to 'make their own channel'. No offence intended, just an observation. All the Best. JB
Summarized: Pilot: Our safety guys didn't think it was safe so we stopped ATC: You don't respect my authority now your in the back of the line Pilot: I'm calling your mother.
That Captain is going to open a can of worms and he might not like the final outcome. Pilots seldom win arguments with controllers. He should have just kept his mouth shut and moved on. Just tell his FO to shut up, then say something to placate the tower and moved on. His FO whipping out the testosterone was childish and immature. Safety my ass. The planes were moving at walking speed. They could have collided and no one was going to get "hurt". The only thing hurt here was the Envoy FO's ego. Do you want to stop the push? Fine. Stop the push. But the FO coming up with his BS request that the controller explain himself AT THAT TIME on frequency was just crap and reeked of amateur hour. DCA is a VERY VERY busy airport. The controller didn't have the time for that crap. You'll notice that the Captain eventually took over the radio. He probably told his FO to shut up. Smart move. Been there and did that for decades.
@@lbowsk "whipping out the testosterone" holy fuck the aviation community is so soft it's ridiculous lol. Guy asked a question, controller got his panties in a twist. Get over it and move on. The only thing pilots are scared about with ATC is the dumb ones getting them killed or injured.
@@idktbh7108 Not saying they shouldn't have stuck uo for ATC here but no numbers were requested untill that the two sighs from Envoy should not have happened.
@@63076topher I feel like they would've asked for a number anyway. I just don't see a reason for a phone call. The wing walkers said it was too close for comfort and they stopped. That's what they're supposed to do.
"Shut up Envoy" was stupid unprofessional as well as cowardly since they were trying to be anonymous. If your going to tell someone to shut up, use your call sign, coward.
2:35 He said "Sorry, safety is important to us" not "File a safety report".... and he's right, controllers have overinflated egos sometimes just like pilots, and this controller was in the wrong here.
not all airports require push back clearance, so push back is at own risk....FAA does not control a pushback blocking a "cleared to taxi" aircraft, so all pilots need to be heads up....if you need to stop, stop.....
Who controls the flow of airplanes on the ground and in the air? Who has the big picture? The comment from 3984 was uncalled for, unprofessional, and childish and was appropriately told to "STFU Envoy ...". Not professional on-air, but appropriate.
That’s kinda the point of the wing walkers to verify and make the judgement call if something’s too close. We can’t see behind us obviously and ATC is in a tower 200 feet off the ground. Pretty sure the wing walkers have the best view and final say.
Except wing walkers can't talk directly to pilots nor atc, only tug operator can. That said wing walkers along with tug operator takes responsibility to push the aircraft again nothing to do with the pilots. If wing walkers saw another aircraft potentially obstructing, they'll stop the push back to resolve, nothing to do with pilots.
@@johnwesly4630 the tug driver can talk to us but not ATC. We relay any important information prior to push. “Cleared to push tail south nose abeam X gate” once they commenced the push it’s hard for them to hear us clearly especially when we spin an engine.
@Lori-Go To My ChanneI! L!VE NOW Exactly, but why is pilot arguing with atc and telling them that he told the tug to stop. Pilot has no business after he passes clearance from atc and the whole responsibility is of ground crews.
@@johnwesly4630 it is our responsibility to both relay to ATC our situation and dictate the A/C. The PIC is entirely responsible for the safe operation of the A/C. If the wing walkers tell me they think it’s too close I’m telling them to stop and wait then I’m going to relay that information to ATC/ramp control. I would’ve done it in a different way then this crew but what they did was the right call nonetheless and I’m not going to armchair quarterback another PIC’s decision when that’s not my A/C and I wasn’t in the seat in the situation.
Pilot: 'Hey our wingwalker thinks we're a little close so we're just going to wait a minute before we continue pushing back' Tower: 'and I took that personally'
What was the pilot supposed to say to his wing walkers ? “Hey I know your not happy with how close that taxiing aircraft is and feel it’s unsafe but ATC have told me to push so we’ve got to go now and risk it !” The bottom line is the Capt. is fully responsible for the safety of his passengers, if a wing Walker (who has a much better view of the situation) is giving advise not to push then you don’t push. I’ve had something similar to this happen to me at Amsterdam, some ATC controllers forget that although they are issuing instructions, they are not issuing orders to be obeyed at all cost.
Pilots can't talk to wing walkers. They can only communicate with the tug driver. The tug driver will flash his lights at the WW to get their attention.
Pilot: Can you give me the phone number? We need to make a call. ATC: **Visible confusion** Jokes aside, I believe both acted like kids. The taxi plane migh have gone too close to 3984, but the wing walkers did their job and nothing happened, and on the other side, the controller's "sigh" was intentionally made on the radio, that is not the way to go.
@@mountains889 but a bad day with ATC can cause a collision. In this instance it was the controllers fault, and he wouldn't even acknowledged he messed up. Bad day or not, there was no excuse for how nonchalant he was, as well as his attitude.
I don't think the sigh was from ATC -- you can clearly hear the background chatter when ATC is speaking, and there is no ATC chatter when we hear the sigh at the 2:11 mark. In fact, another sigh happens at 2:22, clearly from the Envoy pilot -- both sighs sound like they're from the same person. The Envoy pilot was clearly annoyed, and had a bit of an attitude. He sounded young (in his twenties, perhaps?), and I'm willing to bet this was his first time departing from this airport. He most likely is not used to the extremely tight ground ops at this airport, and felt uncomfortable with the tightness -- which is perfectly fine... no pilot should do anything he or she deems as unsafe. The Envoy pilot's (apparent) lack of experience at this airport played a factor, and he should have simply stated to ATC that he's stopping due to the aircracraft behind him being too close. Like I said earlier, he sounds young, and as such lacks the decorum that only comes with experience. Despite Envoy's attitude, he did the right thing when decided to stop his push.
@@hack1n8r That was my analysis as well, although I did miss the detail surrounding the sigh. I think you are right and the video might have gotten it wrong. If that is the case that changes my thoughts and I place the entire blame on the pilot. Yes, the pilot's ultimate responsibility is safety, but he didn't have to make a big deal out of it. If he felt uncomfortable he can stop, wait for the other aircraft to taxi by, and continue his pushback. He made it the big deal that it was. Although I still think the other pilots chiming in was completely inappropriate and violated radio protocol.
Right, so he stops the pushback, waits for the plane to taxi by, and continues his pushback. Nowhere in there does he have to whine on the radio like a Karen. What if someone had an emergency situation and needed to contact ATC at that time? Like you said, his responsibility is safety of his own aircraft. ATC has responsibility for all aircraft under their control - on the ground and in the air.
@@eduardoconde7213 No... listen again: At 1:05 he berates the pilot for stopping the pushback, and tells him to "keep moving" implying that it wasn't okay for him to stop the pushback. The controller made it an issue at that point.
Envoy pilot was 100% correct, wing walkers always have priority and it’s the PIC’s responsibility to make sure the aircraft is safe. Tower was being an ass
They were right up until they started back and forth arguing. There's no excuse for taking up frequency time. That might be someone else's critical info on landing or go around.
ramp wing walkers don't have priority over other aircraft on taxiway.......if you need to stop and yield, then you stop and yield...ATC knows this and Envoy needs to grow up
I mean, sometimes when I'm driving a car and I'm getting ready to make a turn into traffic, I'll see someone coming my way with their blinker on. I still wait for them to start turning before I pull out, depending on how fast they're moving. It costs me very little to use that extra bit of caution. I think the wing walkers made 100% the right call for the passengers sakes. It just sucks that both ATC and the pilot couldn't check their egos.
@@domlosurdo3432 exactly. Pilot: wing walker says stop, so I stopped. Then, hey don't gripe at me because you think there is plenty of clearance, my wing walker says stop so I stopped. In fact give me a number to call because you are so mad that I stopped for a valid safety reason that I think someone else might need to check up on what you are doing. Frankly that is the way it should be.
Only a rookie or a dummy puts complete faith in the turn signals or the lack of impulsiveness on the part of other drivers. I agree with and practice what you describe, it has saved me a few times at least.
@@josephdale69 you realize it’s literally our job to prevent accidents while pushing right? If something happens we potentially get fired. Also this “minimum wage” ramp rat makes more than you’d think, last I checked $32 an hour wasn’t minimum wage.
@@josephdale69 Wow, you certainly have no clue what you're talking about. While yes, they don't control the taxiways, that doesn't matter. Their job is to ensure there's no 'incident', considering an error on their part can cost MANY millions to fix (and potentially lives lost?), that's pretty damn important IMHO.
"You guys are working the taxiways?" No, but he's responsible for the safety of the airplane REGARDLESS of ATC instruction. I see nothing wrong with the way Envoy handled it. He held his tongue better than I would've while the ground controller went out of his way to sigh and yell on the frequency. Glad they asked for a phone number.
I'm really confused how anyone could possibly think someone other than the controller was in the wrong here. He was rude, condescending, sarcastic, sighed when questioned and awkwardly pretended a pilot couldnt possibly understand taxiway safety. Dude should have been sent home for the day.
How do you figure? Envoy is pushing in the alleyway which is a non movement area and not controlled by ATC. If the wingwalkers feel like the aircraft is too close in proximity with aircraft on the taxiway that’s controlled by ATC, then they can use their discretion to stop. Envoy making a big fuss about how close they were to ATC was unnecessary
This happens all the time at O'hare. I wing walk for 737 but the ramp is mostly for CRJs. (Only 3 gates for bigger aircrafts) so I just stay directly under the 737 winglet not to get hit by the lower winged CRJs.
You are the only person in the Comment section that actually has experience and can speak first-person. Thank you for a nice break from the Keyboard Commandos.
I've never heard of a wing walker before. I was picturing them standing on the wings, balancing like acrobats. I'm a little disappointed to hear you're under the wing. ;)
@@rebeccawoolfolk5377 Wing walkers are the guys you'll see standing by each of your wings as the aircraft is pushing back from the gate any time you're flying on an airline. The pilots can't see behind the airplane at all and neither the pilots nor the tug driver has a good view of where the wingtips are with respect to everything else nearby - including other aircraft - so wing walkers walk beside the wingtips to make sure the wingtips aren't about to hit anything.
If only Kennedy Steve had been the tower supervisor on this one... both of them would sitting in the corner, copying the following sentence 100 times: "I shall no longer behave unprofessionally nor will I overstep my duties".
@@Evan-ed7pu and proud to be one! Sure, I'm not a pilot, I am a member of the flying public. Which means that normally I should be freaking out by the unprofessionalism of what we sometimes hear on this and other channels, and by some comments of people who claim to be pilots or ATC (if we believe them, of course). But I don't, because this drama is not representative of the aviation industry as a whole (your line of work?). I can reassaure you that a healthy level of professionalism is required in my job and that... unprofessional behaviour on an open mic is punished! :)
I was referring this in my head; typically.. i don't know if it's routine but i've heard KS roll call all pilots to see if they're ready (my guess is to taxi). he was very proactive this way he didn't "want to" rush a crew to taxi; he asked all of them who was ready to go .. but you need a proactive and alert controler to do that .. must be very draining. I could be wrong about when he would choose to do this though because I am not there
The walkers can (and should) stop the push back if they feel anything is unsafe. They aren't communicating with the tower. So I guess it sort of makes sense for the tower to tell 4800 to proceed and look out for 3984 pushing back, but tower shouldn't have been so incredulous about 3984 stopping its pushback. The walkers have the leeway and responsibility to do that. They don't know where 4800 is going or what it was told. But 3984 also didn't have to be quite as confrontational on the air either. They should have just asked tower what 4800 was doing, listened to the response, and carried on. No need to bicker on air. Just ask for a number if you want it.
That controller really needs to shut up. Ive wing walked in the past and as others have said, the only person who knows whats going on is the pushback driver. But still, safety is #1 and how the heck are we supposed to know whats going on if we cant hear ATC? Dont forget the hazards for us!!! Jetblast is the #1 hazard. I hate getting jetblasted. Its dangerous and annoying. Im blaming all that drama entirely on the ground controller. Enovy did nothing wrong.
When you're taxiing, controller saying "use caution" is code for "Remember, we don't control the ramp". So in hindsight, controller upon clearing the push for 3984, should have said "Be advised, reference aircraft passing behind you" since the clearance to the spot was a "when able".
I don't think Envoy was wrong for stopping, but the multiple calls about 'why was he so close to us?' were also unnecessary. They're taxiing by as instructed, if you feel it's unsafe you can stop and wait for them to pass, then keep going. I don't know why they made a big deal out of it
@@toast2610 He was not close a pilot who is told to LOOK OUT for a aircraft would not get too close to it. Wing walkers don't know what is going on with other planes.
@@63076topher I’m not sure how you know how close he was. As a pilot, you can “look out” all you want. But you have no control over the other guys’ plane. And we’re not driving sports cars. They don’t stop on a dime or maneuver quickly. Especially on the ground. Regardless of whether or not the other guy was told to “look out,” envoy did the right thing by stopping the operation in an uncertain situation. And you and I have NO idea how close they were. So we shouldn’t pretend to.
I’ve been flying a long time and this is just one of those situations that you file in the unimportant box. Your wing walkers felt uncomfortable, tug stops, plane goes by, nothing happens, and life goes on. Really no need to make something out of nothing.
Agreed. I think the crew made the right decision to stop but didn’t need all the extra commentary. The controller didn’t need to keep egging them on to argue either. Good decision making, poor professionalism.
That ground controller was rude from the beginning - at the end of the day if something goes wrong it’s the Pilots fault, almost all of the time. It’s better to play it safe whenever you can.
No. I’ve been DCA based for more than 4 years and all the controllers are stellar. Envoy is a twat and we found them a nuisance when they started operating flights there a few years back.
Basically the controller was being a smart-ass. He was telling 3984 that there would be plenty of room between him and the aircraft in front of him. It was a passive aggressive hyperbolic statement saying he'll be "30 miles" from the closest aircraft.
@@VisibilityFoggy, controllers here work the most complex airspace system in the world with the most traffic and have a fantastic safety record, definitely not clowns. There are bad eggs, but if most controllers of US caliber got canned in Europe due to phraseology, that would be a major loss for European air travelers.
@@jordanmorales8610 DCA controllers are fantastic. They're "bad phraseology" is part of what makes them fantastic and makes a great experience at that airport. They do wonders with their tight airspace as well.
Speaking from experience, as a ramper and pushback instructor, certain gates require a higher level of caution. Once the flight deck says, "Brakes released, ready to push", the driver and wing walkers become judge, jury, and executioner. With the advent of three way communication headsets, safety has improved. Bottom line though, if unsure, stop the push!
As a ramp rat, I say Envoy 3984 made the right call. It is far easier to stop and give way to the aircraft under power, than it is to clean up the mess afterwards. Personally, I have my own avband HT that I carry with me for situational awareness, but the push crew here may not have had that luxury. As a student pilot, the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft. There are spots where the crew cannot see, or may have trouble judging clearance from obstacles. Wing walkers alleviate those dangers, and have a far better view of the immediate situation on the ground than either the PIC or ATC. Given the choice, I will always defer to the signals given by the wing walkers, marshals, and towers. Better safe than sorry.
As a 145 driver I agree. I’d listen to you telling me to stop and not ATC to keep it moving. You’re literally standing a few feet from my aircraft and can probably see what we’re about to hit a lot better then the controller when we’re pushing back. That’s literally the whole point of your job. Help aircraft move safely on and off the ramp. Sometimes ATC forget they aren’t really ultimately in charge of an airplane. The term “Director” is probably more accurate then “Controller”.
I think sometimes arguments like this can happen, it feels like in the end they were both quite professional despite the obvious tension. On the other hand the toxic pilots that keep intervening on the radio need to go do something else with their lives.
3984 was being a little annoying but when the tower responded “you guys are working the taxiways” it was unprofessional. This creates an environment where people will start to risk safety to avoid dealing with the hostility.
I watch a lot of these videos and I think this is the first one where the pilot actually asked the ATC controller in the tower for a phone number, usually it's the other way around due to "possible pilot deviation".
He told the 175 to watch for traffic pushing. Saying watch for traffic defers responsibility from the controller to the 175 yet doesn't tell the 175 to give way to or any further instruction, yet insists that the plane in the alley keep pushing. Infact he is irritated that the pilot stopped to wait for the cross traffic. I think the tone of the pilot and question was warranted.
Is the PIC responsible for what happens during pushback? I believe the FAA defines PIC responsibility when they start taxing under its own power. Either way, PIC authority comes with huge responsibility. I dont blame the crew for being concerned about separation distance. ATC’s number one priority is keeping aircraft apart from each other, but does that apply to GC and or ramp control?
If the wing walkers felt it was too close, as a Pilot I’d listen to my wing Walker. I don’t have a rear view mirror or side mirrors. I did laugh at the other pilots comments though! I was waiting for “don’t make me stop this plane!” and “we’ll turn around now and go straight back home if you keep this up, young man!” 😂😂
Many opportunities for Ground to pull his head out of his ass, most particularly when pilot asked why they were close. "You're pushing back onto a taxiway so minimal clearance, judgement call trying to keep things moving for everyone, apologies you're uncomfortable because it looked appropriate from my vantage", etc. Instead he pulled the "you doing my job now?!" card which is immature and petty and actually worrisome because it implies he DIDN'T have a reason for them being close and therefore wasn't in control or doing his job.
The sigh on freq was intentional by the ground controller and extremely unprofessional. The persons with the best view were the wing walkers on the ground. That said - Envoy didn’t need to antagonize the controller. Wing walkers did their job.
what? the controller didn’t sigh at all, the noise you heard came from the Envoy, judging based on his tone of voice. not sure if it was a sigh or not. (if you’re referring to 2:22)
It's hard to say who was at fault without seeing a scale layout of the ramp and taxiiway. The E175 can make a pretty tight turn so it's unlikely to clip anything except air on either side of this ramp. I've pushed this exact plane many times and the wing walkers would not be anywhere near the taxi line referenced by the confused pilot. Furthermore, the pilot could not even properly see the other plane - it would be the tug operator who could tell what's going on best.
He doesn’t say “file a safety report” at the end, he says “sorry that safety is important to us”. Then there’s some strange interference that sounds like folks belittling the Envoy pilot.
@Evelyn 21 y.o - check my vidéó The controller NEVER sighed it was Envoy bolth times they were the same person and the second did NOT say Tower or ATC.
Twat. LMAO!!! Aviation is getting better every year. I've been out of the loop for quite some time. This is nuts but entertaining. I'm waiting for someone to make a mistake one day and say "welcome to McDonald's, may I please take your order?"
Problems or discussions like this one only appear to happen in the US. I work as a captain for a major airline in Europe. When I became a co-pilot on longhaul a check-captain told me about that. He warned me that ATC in the USA acts cool , talks fast but makes a lot of shitty mistakes I won´t be seeing anywhere else. In this case ATC gave a shitty unprofessional answer to a legit question.
I'm a ramp agent at MCO and I have stopped pushes more times then I can count. Our airsides ramp is uncontrolled so we have to be extra vigilant out there as we dont know what other planes are doing or what there intentions are. If I see something or if my wingwalkers throw up a X we stop immediately no questions asked. Theres been multiple times we were pushing and a aircraft comes in off the taxiway and cuts us off making me slam on the brakes. Alot of the pilots appreciate my crew and I being very safety oriented.
This is hard to judge. The picture or animation does speak to how close it actually was. Only those who where there know just how close it was. I would say if the wing walkers stop the push then it was too close. But perhaps they also pushed back too far before beginning the turn into the alley way. Should not have been as big of a problem as it turned into.
@@essel23fly Ummm no. 9 out of 10 commercial and GA pilots will tell you they don't call it an ERJ-175 or 175, it is a 75 to any pilot that flies into Executive or Regional airports, period. 757s are dead, no one calls a 757 a 75 anymore except freight pilots and even they are moving away from 757s.
Curious about this too. In other contexts, "30 miles in trail" means "30 miles behind (someone else)". Could this be as simple as "30 miles behind the last departing aircraft"?
The "block" is just a paved waiting spot (near the beginning of the runway) a few planes can park while waiting to take off. "30 miles in trail" means that along YOUR planned route.... there will be 30 miles of spacing. Operationally that means that u will sit for a few minutes til you take off and watch a few planes take off and land before it's your time.
Rewatching this video cuz algorithm, has the SAME questions, came to the comments to type them, saw I had ALREADY asked them but THIS TIME, there are ANSWERS! Thanks, y’all!!
@@mikek5298 you're wrong then. He voiced a valid safety concern and was mocked for it. That's not how aviation gets safer. He was right and was still more polite than all the other idiots on freq.
@@dyr_glpsn4209 How much do you know about the actual situation though? ATC isn't responsible for the nonmovement area that Envoy pushes into. Sure at the end of the day, ATC is responsible to prevent collision of aircraft, but ultimately it was the wingwalkers that were supposed to stop if they got too close with aircraft on the active taxiway.
I mean, the ones closer to the plane or even better, the ones who are in command of the plane should have the final say on anything, at least on the ground...if they feel unsafe they should stop regardless of what ATC says. Better safe than sorry, just like when United 1448 got lost sideways on an active runway in Providence and the next plane refused the take off clearance, avoiding a Tenerife 2.0.
This is standard in DCA. He was pushing into the alley away from the Brickyard who was on the taxiway watching out. Envoy doesn't typically fly into DCA so he could have been unfamiliar and didn't know he was going into the alley. Ultimately, this captain's attitude is why people make fun of/don't like Envoy. They think they are God's gift to aviation. The DCA controllers have always been top notch
Maybe the DCA controllers are generally top notch, but the dramatic on-frequency SIGH was really a little much. It certainly didn’t de-escalate the deteriorating situation, that’s for sure.
An incident report is called in to the FAA and the NTSB. They then pull the tapes and review available information. Then they release their findings. If they determine there was a possible incursion or safety violation then the responsible parties can receive a reprimand or additional training. If the violation was aggregious then the employing company(ies) will consider more serious consequences up to and including dismissal.
Looks like this is a new terminal at DCA, and I'm not going to fault the pilot and ground crew for being cautious. That said, the pilot's concern crossed the line when it became an argument on freq. Perhaps there is an issue with that gate and potential incursion onto the taxiway on pushback, but better to ask for a number or file a safety report so it can be looked at. Arguing on freq does nothing but distract everyone involved from their jobs.
The controller did kinda start the pissing match with the ludicrous sigh on frequency. Not that there should’ve even *been* a pissing match , but there ya have it.
Envoy was 100% in the right, in my opinion. If the Captain is uncomfortable with the current situation, it is not only his right, but his responsibility to stop the situation. He is responsible for the safety of his airplane and passengers, therefore he was completely justified. The attitude by ATC and the other pilots is wholly uncalled for. Bravo to the Envoy pilot for doing the absolute right thing.
People have bad days, nothing happened. The pilot could have just said "sorry but we had to stop the push because our wing walkers felt unsafe, hope that doesn't disrupt your flow and thank you for trying to get us out quickly".
Knowing exactly the ramp crew pushing back that Envoy flight I commend them on stopping the push. ATC was being an ass about the whole thing and the pilots were completely in the right siding with the pushback crew.
It’s always on atc when planes don’t hit, but when they do, it’s on the pilot. Appreciate envoy from not just defaulting to authority and ensuring the safety of their plane.
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He should have said "possible ATC deviation, i got a number for you to call when I'm good and ready"
Ramp agent here. Wing walkers have no idea what other planes are doing as they have no communication with ATC and usually, either a mechanic or the push driver has one-way communication with the Pilots. It is like playing telephone. Info gets lost as it goes from ATC to the Pilots to then the Mechanic to then the Pushback driver. At the end of the day, if the pushback aircraft was to make contact with the taxing aircraft the two wing walkers and the pushback driver would have lost their jobs.
The push crew has no idea if the plane in the taxiway is going to turn into the alley or if they are just passing by. We stop aircraft all the time just to see what the other plane is going to do. If we see that it will be an issue we wait if we see them move we continue.
Fellow Ramp agent!! Totally agree!
And there it is.
Bugs me how people regularly show up on these videos and want to "pick a side" because it's fun to have wild-a** opinions about things that are well above our pay grade. Then when a bonafide expert shows up and gets the heart from OP (if he's lucky), it gets drowned out in the sea of random RUclips babble.
Sorry but no they wouldn’t have lost their jobs. That’s what the union is for. They would’ve likely got final letters for disciplinary action.
@@CocoEspada ya I agree with you that the ramp agents wouldn’t have lost their jobs at least not at the airport I work at
This comment should be pinned. Spot on. Wing walkers didn’t know what the plane was doing. Envoy was being too Karen with ATC and ATC was mad that Envoy thought he ran the taxiways.
Wing walkers have the authority to stop a push or aircraft movement at any point if they feel it’s unsafe. Safety always comes first in aviation.
I would think that's their entire purpose on the tarmac
@@gregson99 That and dancing for the passengers 😉
Sometimes it seems ego comes first
Safety should always come Third.
as it should, I dont mind people in aviation being overly cautious like I do other things.
He didn’t say “File a safety report to us”. He said “sorry safety is important to us”.
Yeah.... I think most could hear that. Usually the captions on every video are wrong.
@@navy_flyer2331 the person making these videos is not a native English speakers, but even if they were, many native English speakers have often admitted in comments they have difficulty understanding air traffic communications. If you can do better, make your own channel, as LiveATC recordings are available to everyone.
@@LjL-Videos NASTY ARGUMENT @VASAviation .?.! 🙄🥱
@@JediBuddhist Why am I being mentioned? What are you even telling me?
@@LjL-Videos Hiya. Yes sure. I was making an observational question. Navy_flyer made a valid reflection regarding transcriptions and someone using your account seemed insulted and to reply in a hostile manner telling NF to 'make their own channel'. No offence intended, just an observation. All the Best. JB
Summarized:
Pilot: Our safety guys didn't think it was safe so we stopped
ATC: You don't respect my authority now your in the back of the line
Pilot: I'm calling your mother.
That's funny I'm calling ur mother
loool epic
burnnnnnn
Lmao top comment😂😂😂😂😂
Mother jokes never failed 😂
Pilot pulls “I need a number” on ATC. Nicely done
What a legend!! XD
That Captain is going to open a can of worms and he might not like the final outcome. Pilots seldom win arguments with controllers. He should have just kept his mouth shut and moved on. Just tell his FO to shut up, then say something to placate the tower and moved on. His FO whipping out the testosterone was childish and immature. Safety my ass. The planes were moving at walking speed. They could have collided and no one was going to get "hurt". The only thing hurt here was the Envoy FO's ego. Do you want to stop the push? Fine. Stop the push. But the FO coming up with his BS request that the controller explain himself AT THAT TIME on frequency was just crap and reeked of amateur hour. DCA is a VERY VERY busy airport. The controller didn't have the time for that crap. You'll notice that the Captain eventually took over the radio. He probably told his FO to shut up. Smart move.
Been there and did that for decades.
@@lbowsk "whipping out the testosterone" holy fuck the aviation community is so soft it's ridiculous lol. Guy asked a question, controller got his panties in a twist. Get over it and move on. The only thing pilots are scared about with ATC is the dumb ones getting them killed or injured.
@@lbowskExcellent response. Stop the push, stop the whining and move on.
If the wing walkers feel its too close then that's their call to stop the push. Better to be cautious than be wrong.
ATC. “How dare your wing-walkers do the thing they are specifically employed to do!”
at least they weren't face down in their phones like I see most of them doing during push back!
He said “Shut up Envoy” like his parents were in the car.
The pilot who said shut up Envoy made the situation worse no number was asked for untill aftet that happened.
@@63076topher yeah that pissed Envoy off for sure.
@@idktbh7108 Not saying they shouldn't have stuck uo for ATC here but no numbers were requested untill that the two sighs from Envoy should not have happened.
@@63076topher I feel like they would've asked for a number anyway. I just don't see a reason for a phone call. The wing walkers said it was too close for comfort and they stopped. That's what they're supposed to do.
"Shut up Envoy" was stupid unprofessional as well as cowardly since they were trying to be anonymous. If your going to tell someone to shut up, use your call sign, coward.
"Tower, Envoy 3984. Possible Tower deviation. I've got a number for you to copy when you're able."
2:35 He said "Sorry, safety is important to us" not "File a safety report".... and he's right, controllers have overinflated egos sometimes just like pilots, and this controller was in the wrong here.
He wasn`t wrong. He just didn`t know that the wing walkers felt unsafe
not all airports require push back clearance, so push back is at own risk....FAA does not control a pushback blocking a "cleared to taxi" aircraft, so all pilots need to be heads up....if you need to stop, stop.....
Who controls the flow of airplanes on the ground and in the air? Who has the big picture? The comment from 3984 was uncalled for, unprofessional, and childish and was appropriately told to "STFU Envoy ...". Not professional on-air, but appropriate.
That’s kinda the point of the wing walkers to verify and make the judgement call if something’s too close. We can’t see behind us obviously and ATC is in a tower 200 feet off the ground. Pretty sure the wing walkers have the best view and final say.
Exactly
Except wing walkers can't talk directly to pilots nor atc, only tug operator can. That said wing walkers along with tug operator takes responsibility to push the aircraft again nothing to do with the pilots. If wing walkers saw another aircraft potentially obstructing, they'll stop the push back to resolve, nothing to do with pilots.
@@johnwesly4630 the tug driver can talk to us but not ATC. We relay any important information prior to push. “Cleared to push tail south nose abeam X gate” once they commenced the push it’s hard for them to hear us clearly especially when we spin an engine.
@Lori-Go To My ChanneI! L!VE NOW Exactly, but why is pilot arguing with atc and telling them that he told the tug to stop. Pilot has no business after he passes clearance from atc and the whole responsibility is of ground crews.
@@johnwesly4630 it is our responsibility to both relay to ATC our situation and dictate the A/C. The PIC is entirely responsible for the safe operation of the A/C. If the wing walkers tell me they think it’s too close I’m telling them to stop and wait then I’m going to relay that information to ATC/ramp control. I would’ve done it in a different way then this crew but what they did was the right call nonetheless and I’m not going to armchair quarterback another PIC’s decision when that’s not my A/C and I wasn’t in the seat in the situation.
Pilot: 'Hey our wingwalker thinks we're a little close so we're just going to wait a minute before we continue pushing back'
Tower: 'and I took that personally'
Yeah, but he brought it back later questioning why it was so close. So I get the responsibility of the Pilot but he was looking to make a case as well
Except that's not what the pilot did.
Possible controller deviation. Expect a phone call.
HAHAHAHA
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Now that is solid gold…
🤣
“tower we have a phone number for you to copy, advise when ready.”
2:54. When Envoy asks tower for a number is it just me or is there someone in the background yelling “no!”
They definitely were. 😂
What was the pilot supposed to say to his wing walkers ? “Hey I know your not happy with how close that taxiing aircraft is and feel it’s unsafe but ATC have told me to push so we’ve got to go now and risk it !” The bottom line is the Capt. is fully responsible for the safety of his passengers, if a wing Walker (who has a much better view of the situation) is giving advise not to push then you don’t push.
I’ve had something similar to this happen to me at Amsterdam, some ATC controllers forget that although they are issuing instructions, they are not issuing orders to be obeyed at all cost.
Pilots can't talk to wing walkers. They can only communicate with the tug driver. The tug driver will flash his lights at the WW to get their attention.
Pilot: Can you give me the phone number? We need to make a call.
ATC: **Visible confusion**
Jokes aside, I believe both acted like kids. The taxi plane migh have gone too close to 3984, but the wing walkers did their job and nothing happened, and on the other side, the controller's "sigh" was intentionally made on the radio, that is not the way to go.
Ramp agent here, Envoy handled it exactly how he should have! ATC is the one that fucked up
Everyone has a bad day - but good to see ATC isn't perfect just like the rest of us
@@mountains889 but a bad day with ATC can cause a collision. In this instance it was the controllers fault, and he wouldn't even acknowledged he messed up. Bad day or not, there was no excuse for how nonchalant he was, as well as his attitude.
I don't think the sigh was from ATC -- you can clearly hear the background chatter when ATC is speaking, and there is no ATC chatter when we hear the sigh at the 2:11 mark.
In fact, another sigh happens at 2:22, clearly from the Envoy pilot -- both sighs sound like they're from the same person.
The Envoy pilot was clearly annoyed, and had a bit of an attitude. He sounded young (in his twenties, perhaps?), and I'm willing to bet this was his first time departing from this airport. He most likely is not used to the extremely tight ground ops at this airport, and felt uncomfortable with the tightness -- which is perfectly fine... no pilot should do anything he or she deems as unsafe.
The Envoy pilot's (apparent) lack of experience at this airport played a factor, and he should have simply stated to ATC that he's stopping due to the aircracraft behind him being too close. Like I said earlier, he sounds young, and as such lacks the decorum that only comes with experience. Despite Envoy's attitude, he did the right thing when decided to stop his push.
@@hack1n8r That was my analysis as well, although I did miss the detail surrounding the sigh. I think you are right and the video might have gotten it wrong. If that is the case that changes my thoughts and I place the entire blame on the pilot. Yes, the pilot's ultimate responsibility is safety, but he didn't have to make a big deal out of it. If he felt uncomfortable he can stop, wait for the other aircraft to taxi by, and continue his pushback. He made it the big deal that it was. Although I still think the other pilots chiming in was completely inappropriate and violated radio protocol.
The Pilot has ultimate authority over safety matters not ATC. Sometimes controllers forget that.
Right, so he stops the pushback, waits for the plane to taxi by, and continues his pushback. Nowhere in there does he have to whine on the radio like a Karen. What if someone had an emergency situation and needed to contact ATC at that time? Like you said, his responsibility is safety of his own aircraft. ATC has responsibility for all aircraft under their control - on the ground and in the air.
@@BitwiseMobile Exactly. And those wing walkers are contract, minimum wage workers who probably aren’t used to seeing a plane waiting for them.
ATC wasn't the one complaining about "authority". The pilot made a decision then complained.
This pilot forgot that. He implied his pushback was too close to a taxiing aircraft when its his and his wingwalker's responsibility to stay clear.
@@eduardoconde7213 No... listen again: At 1:05 he berates the pilot for stopping the pushback, and tells him to "keep moving" implying that it wasn't okay for him to stop the pushback. The controller made it an issue at that point.
Envoy pilot was 100% correct, wing walkers always have priority and it’s the PIC’s responsibility to make sure the aircraft is safe. Tower was being an ass
They were right up until they started back and forth arguing. There's no excuse for taking up frequency time. That might be someone else's critical info on landing or go around.
ramp wing walkers don't have priority over other aircraft on taxiway.......if you need to stop and yield, then you stop and yield...ATC knows this and Envoy needs to grow up
@@Maniac742he was talking to ground bot tower
Not*
Tower wasn't being an ass, Tower has no problem with that. The issue was the pilot deciding to flex.
A bit of role reversal with the phone numbers there.
It happens more than you think.
@@wurdle how often?
That's the mythical "Hey tower, I have a number for YOU to copy" message.
I came here to say that. ^^
Possible controller deviation
I came here to say that too 🤣
should be a number for the unemployment office as well, on top of the one for FAA
I mean, sometimes when I'm driving a car and I'm getting ready to make a turn into traffic, I'll see someone coming my way with their blinker on. I still wait for them to start turning before I pull out, depending on how fast they're moving. It costs me very little to use that extra bit of caution.
I think the wing walkers made 100% the right call for the passengers sakes. It just sucks that both ATC and the pilot couldn't check their egos.
I do the exact same thing as well! 😂
You can never be too sure whether they are actually turning or forgot their blinker on.
i mean, the pilot is defending the wing walkers judgement here
@@domlosurdo3432 exactly. Pilot: wing walker says stop, so I stopped. Then, hey don't gripe at me because you think there is plenty of clearance, my wing walker says stop so I stopped. In fact give me a number to call because you are so mad that I stopped for a valid safety reason that I think someone else might need to check up on what you are doing.
Frankly that is the way it should be.
Only a rookie or a dummy puts complete faith in the turn signals or the lack of impulsiveness on the part of other drivers. I agree with and practice what you describe, it has saved me a few times at least.
It sounds like the pilot was concerned for his own plane's safety, rather than ego.
2:34 he said “Sorry safety is important to us” :)
When someone passive-aggressively asks you a dumb question, just answer wrong.
"Are you working the taxiways, Envoy?"
"Yes we are."
"..."
Yup. And mindful of safety and avoiding a possible wing tip collision
Yes he is working the taxiways. He's working to maintain his safety and those around him.
this isn't canada or europe: in us society it is dishonorable and rude to respond to passive-aggression with more passive-aggression.
@@gotacallfromvishal Visit Boston, you'll change that attitude
I think this set the wrong tone for the entire conversation afterwards…
Eh kind of with the pilot on this one. If the wing walkers say it's too close it's probably too close.
An ATP CFI......
agreed.
Wing walkers are minimum wage ground crew. They don’t control the taxiways.
@@josephdale69 you realize it’s literally our job to prevent accidents while pushing right? If something happens we potentially get fired. Also this “minimum wage” ramp rat makes more than you’d think, last I checked $32 an hour wasn’t minimum wage.
@@josephdale69 Wow, you certainly have no clue what you're talking about. While yes, they don't control the taxiways, that doesn't matter. Their job is to ensure there's no 'incident', considering an error on their part can cost MANY millions to fix (and potentially lives lost?), that's pretty damn important IMHO.
"You guys are working the taxiways?"
No, but he's responsible for the safety of the airplane REGARDLESS of ATC instruction. I see nothing wrong with the way Envoy handled it. He held his tongue better than I would've while the ground controller went out of his way to sigh and yell on the frequency. Glad they asked for a phone number.
If they are pushing back from the gate, aren't they supposed to stay on the ramp not the taxiway?
This
I'm really confused how anyone could possibly think someone other than the controller was in the wrong here. He was rude, condescending, sarcastic, sighed when questioned and awkwardly pretended a pilot couldnt possibly understand taxiway safety. Dude should have been sent home for the day.
How do you figure? Envoy is pushing in the alleyway which is a non movement area and not controlled by ATC. If the wingwalkers feel like the aircraft is too close in proximity with aircraft on the taxiway that’s controlled by ATC, then they can use their discretion to stop. Envoy making a big fuss about how close they were to ATC was unnecessary
@@WillG_G Who?
This happens all the time at O'hare. I wing walk for 737 but the ramp is mostly for CRJs. (Only 3 gates for bigger aircrafts) so I just stay directly under the 737 winglet not to get hit by the lower winged CRJs.
You are the only person in the Comment section that actually has experience and can speak first-person. Thank you for a nice break from the Keyboard Commandos.
Babin B - dang that sounds like close quarters.
I've never heard of a wing walker before. I was picturing them standing on the wings, balancing like acrobats. I'm a little disappointed to hear you're under the wing. ;)
@@rebeccawoolfolk5377 Wing walkers are the guys you'll see standing by each of your wings as the aircraft is pushing back from the gate any time you're flying on an airline. The pilots can't see behind the airplane at all and neither the pilots nor the tug driver has a good view of where the wingtips are with respect to everything else nearby - including other aircraft - so wing walkers walk beside the wingtips to make sure the wingtips aren't about to hit anything.
@@vbscript2 I actually haven't flown in over two decades. I like flying. I hate airports.
Pilot: "Possible deviation, I have number for you, please let me know when ready to copy..."
ATC:
"Twat" - deliberately transmitted. No excuses. Very poor behaviour
If only Kennedy Steve had been the tower supervisor on this one... both of them would sitting in the corner, copying the following sentence 100 times: "I shall no longer behave unprofessionally nor will I overstep my duties".
Tell me you're a youtube pilot, without telling me you're a youtube pilot! You made it too easy
@@Evan-ed7pu and proud to be one! Sure, I'm not a pilot, I am a member of the flying public. Which means that normally I should be freaking out by the unprofessionalism of what we sometimes hear on this and other channels, and by some comments of people who claim to be pilots or ATC (if we believe them, of course). But I don't, because this drama is not representative of the aviation industry as a whole (your line of work?). I can reassaure you that a healthy level of professionalism is required in my job and that... unprofessional behaviour on an open mic is punished! :)
I wonder if kennedy steve watches the youtube videos for entertainment still?
Lol!
I was referring this in my head; typically.. i don't know if it's routine but i've heard KS roll call all pilots to see if they're ready (my guess is to taxi). he was very proactive this way he didn't "want to" rush a crew to taxi; he asked all of them who was ready to go .. but you need a proactive and alert controler to do that .. must be very draining. I could be wrong about when he would choose to do this though because I am not there
Kudos to the 40+ year old that called Envoy a "Twat". Perfect...
The walkers can (and should) stop the push back if they feel anything is unsafe. They aren't communicating with the tower. So I guess it sort of makes sense for the tower to tell 4800 to proceed and look out for 3984 pushing back, but tower shouldn't have been so incredulous about 3984 stopping its pushback. The walkers have the leeway and responsibility to do that. They don't know where 4800 is going or what it was told.
But 3984 also didn't have to be quite as confrontational on the air either. They should have just asked tower what 4800 was doing, listened to the response, and carried on. No need to bicker on air. Just ask for a number if you want it.
That controller really needs to shut up. Ive wing walked in the past and as others have said, the only person who knows whats going on is the pushback driver. But still, safety is #1 and how the heck are we supposed to know whats going on if we cant hear ATC? Dont forget the hazards for us!!! Jetblast is the #1 hazard. I hate getting jetblasted. Its dangerous and annoying. Im blaming all that drama entirely on the ground controller. Enovy did nothing wrong.
When you're taxiing, controller saying "use caution" is code for "Remember, we don't control the ramp". So in hindsight, controller upon clearing the push for 3984, should have said "Be advised, reference aircraft passing behind you" since the clearance to the spot was a "when able".
I don't think Envoy was wrong for stopping, but the multiple calls about 'why was he so close to us?' were also unnecessary. They're taxiing by as instructed, if you feel it's unsafe you can stop and wait for them to pass, then keep going. I don't know why they made a big deal out of it
The ground controller started it with "Envy 3984, continue the taxi" when they stopped and the aircraft taxiing by weren't yet clear.
@@toast2610 He was not close a pilot who is told to LOOK OUT for a aircraft would not get too close to it. Wing walkers don't know what is going on with other planes.
Exactly. Latch-key kid. Needs attention.
@@63076topher I’m not sure how you know how close he was. As a pilot, you can “look out” all you want. But you have no control over the other guys’ plane. And we’re not driving sports cars. They don’t stop on a dime or maneuver quickly. Especially on the ground. Regardless of whether or not the other guy was told to “look out,” envoy did the right thing by stopping the operation in an uncertain situation. And you and I have NO idea how close they were. So we shouldn’t pretend to.
@@johnrocheleau9946 The pilot of the plane on the taxiway could see the one backing out the whole time.
That’s the right way to do it, call and talk about it later. Don’t spend too much time arguing on the radio
imagine a grown ass man in the tower directing giant dangerous airplanes audibly sighing into comms because of safety reasons, seek help lad.
I’ve been flying a long time and this is just one of those situations that you file in the unimportant box. Your wing walkers felt uncomfortable, tug stops, plane goes by, nothing happens, and life goes on. Really no need to make something out of nothing.
Totally agree.... Eventhough I'm a Brickyard driver. .. . Geeez! Pilots. 🤔👨🏽✈️✈
Absolutely sir. Spent most of the last 20 years working the ramp. (MSP) The only thing that's routine, is to expect the unexpected.
Agreed. I think the crew made the right decision to stop but didn’t need all the extra commentary. The controller didn’t need to keep egging them on to argue either. Good decision making, poor professionalism.
That ground controller was rude from the beginning - at the end of the day if something goes wrong it’s the Pilots fault, almost all of the time. It’s better to play it safe whenever you can.
No. I’ve been DCA based for more than 4 years and all the controllers are stellar. Envoy is a twat and we found them a nuisance when they started operating flights there a few years back.
@@Chorizo727 Hi, how come your username is "chorizo"? Is that related to the Spanish food?
Can someone explain the "30 miles in trail" thing? Non-pilot, not sure why that sounded like it upset the guys in 3984
Basically the controller was being a smart-ass. He was telling 3984 that there would be plenty of room between him and the aircraft in front of him. It was a passive aggressive hyperbolic statement saying he'll be "30 miles" from the closest aircraft.
I always wondered how the whole deviation thing would work in reverse like that.
Ask for the facilities phone number and their initials
Here's how it works: the pilot calls and complains, then nothing happens. Their phraseology alone would get most of these clowns canned in Europe.
@@VisibilityFoggy what was the phraseology used when the European controller caused that mid air in Germany a while back?
@@VisibilityFoggy, controllers here work the most complex airspace system in the world with the most traffic and have a fantastic safety record, definitely not clowns. There are bad eggs, but if most controllers of US caliber got canned in Europe due to phraseology, that would be a major loss for European air travelers.
@@jordanmorales8610 DCA controllers are fantastic. They're "bad phraseology" is part of what makes them fantastic and makes a great experience at that airport. They do wonders with their tight airspace as well.
Man, that ATC was unprofessional as fuck! Better to listen to the staff on the ground telling you that something is too close!
Speaking from experience, as a ramper and pushback instructor, certain gates require a higher level of caution. Once the flight deck says, "Brakes released, ready to push", the driver and wing walkers become judge, jury, and executioner. With the advent of three way communication headsets, safety has improved. Bottom line though, if unsure, stop the push!
It’s never a problem until you hear the crunch of metal.
Told Envoy they’re 30 miles in trail behind the second CRJ. 😂😂😂
As a ramp rat, I say Envoy 3984 made the right call. It is far easier to stop and give way to the aircraft under power, than it is to clean up the mess afterwards.
Personally, I have my own avband HT that I carry with me for situational awareness, but the push crew here may not have had that luxury.
As a student pilot, the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft. There are spots where the crew cannot see, or may have trouble judging clearance from obstacles. Wing walkers alleviate those dangers, and have a far better view of the immediate situation on the ground than either the PIC or ATC. Given the choice, I will always defer to the signals given by the wing walkers, marshals, and towers.
Better safe than sorry.
As a 145 driver I agree. I’d listen to you telling me to stop and not ATC to keep it moving.
You’re literally standing a few feet from my aircraft and can probably see what we’re about to hit a lot better then the controller when we’re pushing back.
That’s literally the whole point of your job. Help aircraft move safely on and off the ramp.
Sometimes ATC forget they aren’t really ultimately in charge of an airplane. The term “Director” is probably more accurate then “Controller”.
I think sometimes arguments like this can happen, it feels like in the end they were both quite professional despite the obvious tension. On the other hand the toxic pilots that keep intervening on the radio need to go do something else with their lives.
Wow! Calling "the number" to report ATC. That's unusual...
Broke the matrix
no ...its happens/ ego occurs at any location/.
No, it isn’t.
Works both ways.
3984 was being a little annoying but when the tower responded “you guys are working the taxiways” it was unprofessional. This creates an environment where people will start to risk safety to avoid dealing with the hostility.
I think Envoy 3984 had some valid concerns.
Yep, could've been resolved pretty easily but ATC had to be a prick with the stupid 'are you working the taxiways' comment.
2:50 you hear the other controllers in the tower say "No!" lol
Maybe it was the captain
Pilot: "I'm very upset right now"
ATC: "Cleared for take off"
Hopefully ATSAP and ASAP were filled out. This is a scenario that helps keep ground crew safe.
I watch a lot of these videos and I think this is the first one where the pilot actually asked the ATC controller in the tower for a phone number, usually it's the other way around due to "possible pilot deviation".
He told the 175 to watch for traffic pushing. Saying watch for traffic defers responsibility from the controller to the 175 yet doesn't tell the 175 to give way to or any further instruction, yet insists that the plane in the alley keep pushing. Infact he is irritated that the pilot stopped to wait for the cross traffic. I think the tone of the pilot and question was warranted.
You know shit has hit the fan when it's the PILOT asking the TOWER for the numbers.
Envoy had the wing walkers backs. Good on him. To the pilot yelling twat and shut up Envoy, you need some counseling.
Is the PIC responsible for what happens during pushback? I believe the FAA defines PIC responsibility when they start taxing under its own power.
Either way, PIC authority comes with huge responsibility. I dont blame the crew for being concerned about separation distance. ATC’s number one priority is keeping aircraft apart from each other, but does that apply to GC and or ramp control?
Well they are pushing to the movement area (active taxiway) so ATC would be responsible for maintaining separation.
If the wing walkers felt it was too close, as a Pilot I’d listen to my wing Walker. I don’t have a rear view mirror or side mirrors. I did laugh at the other pilots comments though! I was waiting for “don’t make me stop this plane!” and “we’ll turn around now and go straight back home if you keep this up, young man!” 😂😂
Many opportunities for Ground to pull his head out of his ass, most particularly when pilot asked why they were close. "You're pushing back onto a taxiway so minimal clearance, judgement call trying to keep things moving for everyone, apologies you're uncomfortable because it looked appropriate from my vantage", etc. Instead he pulled the "you doing my job now?!" card which is immature and petty and actually worrisome because it implies he DIDN'T have a reason for them being close and therefore wasn't in control or doing his job.
I disagree.
@@mikek5298 weakest argument on the Internet. You’re wrong.
I don't know anything about how this works but just listening I am with 3984 on this.
If you worked at DCA you would totally understand. Ground is BEAST! Sometimes you gotta sigh on freq just to let it out🤣🤣
Sounds like Envoy was right, but no need for the immaturity and unprofessional remarks from both the pilot and controller at the end.
Ego's are writing cheques their bodies can't cash.
The sigh on freq was intentional by the ground controller and extremely unprofessional. The persons with the best view were the wing walkers on the ground. That said - Envoy didn’t need to antagonize the controller. Wing walkers did their job.
Not sure how it can be determined that ground was the one who sighed.
what? the controller didn’t sigh at all, the noise you heard came from the Envoy, judging based on his tone of voice. not sure if it was a sigh or not. (if you’re referring to 2:22)
@@flyjarrett volume. Character of transmission. Background sound. As a pilot it was pretty clear it was the ground controller.
@@tomato-v8x it’s captioned as ground and based on background squeal on the Envoy transmissions, volume etc it’s pretty clear it was ground.
Not to mention the crack about being "thirty miles in trail"
It's hard to say who was at fault without seeing a scale layout of the ramp and taxiiway. The E175 can make a pretty tight turn so it's unlikely to clip anything except air on either side of this ramp. I've pushed this exact plane many times and the wing walkers would not be anywhere near the taxi line referenced by the confused pilot. Furthermore, the pilot could not even properly see the other plane - it would be the tug operator who could tell what's going on best.
Controller intentionally put them 30 miles in trail of the next one. Was that really necessary, or just out of spite?
Sounds like just out of spite.
no, he was making a joke that there was plenty of space between him and the taxiing RJ
@@caspianmerlin6434 no, he was making a joke that there was plenty of space between him and the taxiing RJ
He doesn’t say “file a safety report” at the end, he says “sorry that safety is important to us”. Then there’s some strange interference that sounds like folks belittling the Envoy pilot.
As they should have he was acting like a child sighing twice like that.
@Evelyn 21 y.o - check my vidéó The controller NEVER sighed it was Envoy bolth times they were the same person and the second did NOT say Tower or ATC.
It would have been so classic if he would have gave him Pizza Hut’s phone number.
Yeah, that would have been... c l a s s i c
Twat. LMAO!!! Aviation is getting better every year. I've been out of the loop for quite some time. This is nuts but entertaining. I'm waiting for someone to make a mistake one day and say "welcome to McDonald's, may I please take your order?"
That moment actual ATC starts sounding for all the world like an AirforceProud95 video.
I was seriously waiting for a "Blog it" comment from someone in this vid lol
The last video showed how to be cordial and polite and treat others decently even when there is a disagreement. This one show how to do the opposite.
Problems or discussions like this one only appear to happen in the US. I work as a captain for a major airline in Europe. When I became a co-pilot on longhaul a check-captain told me about that. He warned me that ATC in the USA acts cool , talks fast but makes a lot of shitty mistakes I won´t be seeing anywhere else. In this case ATC gave a shitty unprofessional answer to a legit question.
This 👍
I'm a ramp agent at MCO and I have stopped pushes more times then I can count. Our airsides ramp is uncontrolled so we have to be extra vigilant out there as we dont know what other planes are doing or what there intentions are. If I see something or if my wingwalkers throw up a X we stop immediately no questions asked. Theres been multiple times we were pushing and a aircraft comes in off the taxiway and cuts us off making me slam on the brakes. Alot of the pilots appreciate my crew and I being very safety oriented.
This is hard to judge. The picture or animation does speak to how close it actually was. Only those who where there know just how close it was. I would say if the wing walkers stop the push then it was too close. But perhaps they also pushed back too far before beginning the turn into the alley way. Should not have been as big of a problem as it turned into.
And that kids,.. is how NOT to do it. 🤦♀️
Haha “the 75” what a dork!
Yeah - since when is a little Embraer 175 a 75? I've always known that to be a Boeing 757.
Well they have flow so they’re pretty much AA pilots.
The ERJ-175 is also known as an E75.
@@twobigjets no it’s not come on. Maybe on seatguru
@@essel23fly Ummm no. 9 out of 10 commercial and GA pilots will tell you they don't call it an ERJ-175 or 175, it is a 75 to any pilot that flies into Executive or Regional airports, period. 757s are dead, no one calls a 757 a 75 anymore except freight pilots and even they are moving away from 757s.
Can anyone break down ATC’s communications for me a bit? At 2:15: what does “in the block” mean? Also, what does “30 miles in trail” mean?
Curious about this too. In other contexts, "30 miles in trail" means "30 miles behind (someone else)". Could this be as simple as "30 miles behind the last departing aircraft"?
I think both were ironic for Envoy. "in the block" meaning in the queue and "30 miles in trail" meaning you have an eternity to departure.
The "block" is just a paved waiting spot (near the beginning of the runway) a few planes can park while waiting to take off. "30 miles in trail" means that along YOUR planned route.... there will be 30 miles of spacing. Operationally that means that u will sit for a few minutes til you take off and watch a few planes take off and land before it's your time.
Rewatching this video cuz algorithm, has the SAME questions, came to the comments to type them, saw I had ALREADY asked them but THIS TIME, there are ANSWERS! Thanks, y’all!!
@@deanroczen2036Thank you for the info! See my other comment in this thread.
I would consider that a civil discourse, compared with the divisive nature of our society, these days.
Watching aviation videos for a long long time, first time I heard a pilot asking for the dreadful number 😂 and the controller like "wait, what!! " 😂
Envoy was in the right here, the other pilots on frequency and tower were very unprofessional.
I disagree.
@@mikek5298 you're wrong then. He voiced a valid safety concern and was mocked for it. That's not how aviation gets safer. He was right and was still more polite than all the other idiots on freq.
@@dyr_glpsn4209 How much do you know about the actual situation though? ATC isn't responsible for the nonmovement area that Envoy pushes into. Sure at the end of the day, ATC is responsible to prevent collision of aircraft, but ultimately it was the wingwalkers that were supposed to stop if they got too close with aircraft on the active taxiway.
daaaaamn. some egos there.
Why can't people just be professional? Why put yourselves in a position to get in trouble? I just don't get it....
Busy airport, an ATC controller is probably one of the most stressful jobs in the US it leaks through every now and then.
In the non movement area, the aircraft is under the control of the wing walkers and push back tug operator.
Other pilots commenting "twat" and "shut up envoy" are like little kids. Juvenile and pathetic.
Where is my TPS report with the cover sheet on it? #OfficeSpace
Envoy definitely wasn't getting any love.
Right! Disgusting little butt kissers IMHO.
If that was Kennedy Steve, he'd be asking if that was a call for a pizza delivery.
Well there can be moments when a pilot request a phone nr! interesting 😁
The comms telling him to shut up sound like Ace Combat mission dialogue lmao
2:36 OH things gotten hot out there!
Whats up with the phone numbers they are asking. Who calls who and what is the function of those conversations?
I mean, the ones closer to the plane or even better, the ones who are in command of the plane should have the final say on anything, at least on the ground...if they feel unsafe they should stop regardless of what ATC says. Better safe than sorry, just like when United 1448 got lost sideways on an active runway in Providence and the next plane refused the take off clearance, avoiding a Tenerife 2.0.
Reading the comments is very enlightening. Pilots, ATC, and ground crews all joining in!
This is standard in DCA. He was pushing into the alley away from the Brickyard who was on the taxiway watching out. Envoy doesn't typically fly into DCA so he could have been unfamiliar and didn't know he was going into the alley. Ultimately, this captain's attitude is why people make fun of/don't like Envoy. They think they are God's gift to aviation. The DCA controllers have always been top notch
The wing walkers also haven't been to DCA before? 🤔
Maybe the DCA controllers are generally top notch, but the dramatic on-frequency SIGH was really a little much. It certainly didn’t de-escalate the deteriorating situation, that’s for sure.
What does it mean when they ask for a number? And how much trouble does one get in?
An incident report is called in to the FAA and the NTSB. They then pull the tapes and review available information. Then they release their findings. If they determine there was a possible incursion or safety violation then the responsible parties can receive a reprimand or additional training. If the violation was aggregious then the employing company(ies) will consider more serious consequences up to and including dismissal.
Looks like this is a new terminal at DCA, and I'm not going to fault the pilot and ground crew for being cautious. That said, the pilot's concern crossed the line when it became an argument on freq. Perhaps there is an issue with that gate and potential incursion onto the taxiway on pushback, but better to ask for a number or file a safety report so it can be looked at. Arguing on freq does nothing but distract everyone involved from their jobs.
The controller did kinda start the pissing match with the ludicrous sigh on frequency. Not that there should’ve even *been* a pissing match , but there ya have it.
Envoy was 100% in the right, in my opinion. If the Captain is uncomfortable with the current situation, it is not only his right, but his responsibility to stop the situation. He is responsible for the safety of his airplane and passengers, therefore he was completely justified. The attitude by ATC and the other pilots is wholly uncalled for. Bravo to the Envoy pilot for doing the absolute right thing.
People have bad days, nothing happened. The pilot could have just said "sorry but we had to stop the push because our wing walkers felt unsafe, hope that doesn't disrupt your flow and thank you for trying to get us out quickly".
That would have sent a stronger message than all the attitude combined.
Knowing exactly the ramp crew pushing back that Envoy flight I commend them on stopping the push. ATC was being an ass about the whole thing and the pilots were completely in the right siding with the pushback crew.
It’s always on atc when planes don’t hit, but when they do, it’s on the pilot. Appreciate envoy from not just defaulting to authority and ensuring the safety of their plane.
Okay tower, possible controller deviation, I'm going to need you to copy down a number and call when you get a moment. Advise when ready to copy.