Thoughts on Psalm 82 and Its Use in John 10
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- Опубликовано: 19 фев 2022
- Some thoughts on what Psalm 82 likely was written to accomplish, when it was written, and how it was understood by the author of John 10. For my paper on Psalm 82 in the Journal of Biblical Literature:
hcommons.org/deposits/objects...
For my paper on Psalm 82 in Latter-day Saint tradition:
d14aguv12ul9fz.cloudfront.net...
This commentary is so desperately needed by so many.
I can't get enough of your content, Dan. It is so refreshing to have these new perspectives. It produces a certain amount of cognitive dissonance, but also offers a seed for new understanding and faith.
You do know he's in the LDS Church, right?
@@josremery What's wrong with that if he was trying to just share his academic perspective? Not all Mormons are trying to convert you.
@@josremery to clarify, he recently left his position as "part" of the latter day saints, but he says he is still a member.
@@BenChaverin I think you may be a little confused. He was part of BYU and left that. But as of just a couple months ago, an interview for his podcast describes him as a faithful member. You don't have to be part of byu to be a member.
@@bluedreams517 thats... what I said. He is no longer a member of the clergy, but he describes himself as a "latter day saint".
Thankyou Dan, for the deeper insights and contexts of understanding with this psalm. I enjoy how you place references to other passages in scripture to extrapolate deeper understanding and context. You have been blessed, the Lord be with you!
This is one of those examples where the lay reading and the scholarly reading are very close, and then there is the mental gymnastics that dogmatism introduces. Just search Psalm 82 here on RUclips to see dozens of pseudo-intellectuals forcing the text to say things it absolutely does not.
Thanks so much for this content, Dan. I love it, keep it coming!
I'd say most of the time the plain reading and the scholarly textual criticism agree, its the apologists that warp it to say what they want it to say by reading their ideology into the text.
A great example from the New Testament is apologists saying that Luke's gospel gives Mary's genealogy when it quite clearly says it's Joseph's. They do this so that Luke's genealogy of Jesus doesnt contradict Matthew's, but a plain reading shows both are giving Jesus' bloodline through Joseph.
the exact moment of monotheism emerging. Fascinating.
Yes! You could also argue that Isaiah 45:5 was the defining moment. _I am Yahweh, and there is no other; apart from me, there is no God._
Eh, in theory Zoroaster came first
@-Monad- There is no true claim to monotheism. Even Zoroastrianism has archangels and the evil god Angra Mainyu. It seems to me that all cultures had a pantheon at one time with a chief deity. Over time, lesser gods were relegated to angels. Oila! Monotheism.
Just like to say that I appreciate that you add subtitles/scripts for all your videos.
What a great study. I confess, I needed to watch your video about four times in order to grasp the meaning of your study. But, it’s enlightening. Thank you, Dan.
I like this because I'm also a fan of Alan Watts and I've always thought his argument that Jesus knew "we were all gods" because of Psalm 82 and John 10 was a weak argument, especially for a former Anglican priest. You pretty much make his point look silly. Thank you for that. :)
Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for your work! I’ve followed you on TikTok for a while now and appreciate your well researched positions.
Also, to anyone else reading this I’m a current law student who studied history & theology in undergrad and the textual critique skills you learn studying religions this way is invaluable when it comes to areas like law or any other domaine of study.
I just want to encourage anyone reading this to look at the way Daniel breaks down arguments and texts and try to hone that because if you can apply that skill to any challenge in your life it is truly one of the most powerful tools in the world.
Thank you for what you do and the skills you are providing to other people for free!
Thanks Dan. I have been reading those texts for years and you have given me a lot more to ponder.
I always thought Jesus was using the Rabbinical interpretation against them, not necessarily agreeing with them. Basically like he was saying "if you are going to call these 'sons of God' men, then you can't be mad at me for saying I am a Son of God. "
This was amazing! Thank you! I didn't realize how different rabbi's we're interpreting Psalm 82 by the time of Jesus.
So, for a future topic, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Isaiah 14 (especially verses 12-15) and how this taunt Psalm, which was originally directed towards the King of Babylon, was later interpreted as referring to satan (lucifer).
Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge!
I could watch this channel all day
Excellent video! Looking forward to more.
Great video. I have been following Michael Heiser who also has worked on this view and has made it easy to understand for me.
This is absolutely outstanding.
Really liked this a lot. Thank you.
This is awesome! I learn so much
Fascinating!
Love your content.
Magnificent! 🎉
Fascinating
A great reading and understanding of the text. I wish I could sit for classes with you.
I know this is older, but it's very helpful and interesting. Although I'm no longer active in the Church, I continue to find that the best way to make sense of the Bible and the traditions surrounding it is studying similar, extrabiblical cultures and texts (be they ancient Near Eastern, pre-/non-Nicene Christian, or Greco-Roman pagan ones).
Pre-Nicene Christianity is the most fascinating thing to me, and I'm not entirely sure why. Maybe because it has the potential to be more "pure" or accurate to the original practices. Or maybe because it's the time period where different Christian groups were trying out different practices to see what fit best. Either way, super interesting.
Fascinating and really eye opening. I wonder if this signifies a step towards Universality and the universal worship of Adonai.
In response to one of the closing questions:
An interesting discussion that happens that I’d be curious of your take on is this topic of “Paul’s Jesus”…much of the historicity debate evolves around peoples interpretation of what Paul thinks of Jesus…Scholars interested in Gnostics will occasionally mention Paul in a precursory way to these groups that later formed in the early church…Paul’s letters definitely held significant weight in the Catholic tradition I was brought up a part of in America.
So all that to say “what do you think is up with Paul”?
Love your content here and elsewhere! 🖖
This brings up some thoughts on a video I saw recently by a Rabbi, about Nephilim, and how they're meant to be interpreted as Epic Heros who were demi gods, and then are declared to have been destroyed by the flood.
unrelated to your actual discussion, but what you said about gods dying makes me think of the Craft Sequence series by Max Gladstone. It has to do with gods dying, being remade, etc all to the tune of legalese, which is very interesting
Is there intertextuality/shared motifs of mot from ugarit and mawet in the OT? Like Hasatan, Sheol,angel of the lord/destroying angel? East wind? Breath of god?Etc.
What do you think is meant by "foundations of the earth" that were supposedly torn up in reference to the deities' actions? Would this be the different geographical locations the deities were supposed to have overseen?
Would it be possible for you to do a video on the different translations of Deuteronomy 33:27 (I.e. NRSV vs others)? I feel like it relates to the subject matter in this video.
Could John 3:35 also be a reference to that same Pharisaic reading of Psalm 82? I really like the explanation that this Psalm is a post-exilic composition meant to get around the religious issues of the Babylonian exile.
I love your TikTok account :) I was wondering, what is the Bible; why was it written and by whom ?
Boy! He's good! Real good!.
Hey Dr Mclellan, is it the case that the exodus narrative in the Bible today was recorded later than the probable composition of psalm 82? And do we know anything about whatever form an origin story for Israel might have existed in before that, if at all? I see the motivation for extending Adonai’s sovereignty from the literal territory of Israel to the nations for exiles who were taken away, but I wonder how the national patron god idea fit with belief in things like the period of wandering in the wilderness, conquering the promised land etc, and if those stories were understood differently at the time psalm 82 was composed, or if they weren’t yet part of tradition or culture at all.
Dan, My question is: Are the angels then mortal, if the gods became mortal?
My understsnding is that the angels are also immortal.
Thanks for your videos.....enjoying them
Michael Heiser has written much on this subject in his book The Unseen Realm.
I love it that God uses people from different religious groups to teach the truth found in His Word
Very interesting perspective, but at the same time, this psalm reminds me so much of all the accusations the Prophets made against the rulers of Israel before the Exile that I can't help to read "gods" as referring metaphorically to them (and the rulers of all nations as well).
91 is my favorite
In NRSV Annotated, the editor’s note to Deut. 32:9 states, at first quoting from the verse: “ ‘The Lord’s own portion’, NRSV has added own in order to identify Yahweh with Elton and avoid the impression that Yahweh is merely a member of the pantheon.”
Why would it be Oxford’s job to add to the Hebrew in order to avoid the impression? I do not understand this.
Dr. McClellan, would you also consider teaching Ancient Hebrew as well?
What happened to El? Is he still the most high?
I’d love to hear your comments about how Modern Theologians link satan/Lucifer with the one who falls from heaven with 1/3 of the angels… and this video made me think of it when you referenced angels lacking the ability to disobey God.
My immediate thought as well was how Lucifer is supposed to be a fallen/disobedient angel. How does that fit?
While I greatly appreciate digging into this text unlost at the notion that Elohim does not refer to judges back in Exodus
Would you say that Jesus' reading of the Psalm according to John is genuinely Jesus' reading? Or is it more likely that it originates from the gospel writer or some source he picked up on?
I have a question: if Jesus said he was the Word of God, does that mean that he was a spokesperson for God? And if so, which God was he a spokesperson for? Adonai, or the main God? And if he was a spokesperson, then would that have made him a high priest, since they were the intermediaries between Adonai and his people? If so, is that why the high priest and priests wanted to kill Jesus, because he was competition and could actually perform miracles (which they couldnt). I guess that's more than one question, but would appreciate clarification if you have time. Thank you for your informative videos.
By the time Jesus was around monotheism was firmly established in Judaism, so there was no separate entity called Adonai, El, Yahweh, etc. By then they were all conflated into one deity so He would have been the "spokesperson" for the "only god" in Judaism.
Thank you, that makes sense. So he considered himself a spokesperson and who he was a spokesperson for. :-) Wondering still if that was the reason he was killed. It seems like the priests were awfully keen to get rid of him when the Roman's didnt really seem to be invested in his death.
@@kirkalbrecht9557 I don't know that this was entirely correct.
@@nikkianderson9995 Jesus,imo, was understood in his day as the Angel of the LORD. Distinct from YHVH, and called YHVH. This distinction of two entities, or one omnipresent spirit, and one physical manifestation, which is more in line I believe with NT testament teaching, especially in Paul's was still present. This is also prevelant all throughout Isaiah with the 2 figures if you watch the text. It's also interesting that the word kyrios for yhvh is applied to Jesus constantly, yet when the Father is referenced in the gospels he's called the Most High. Much like in the Deuteronomy 32:8-9 passage in Greek, DSS Hebrew, and elsewhere where you may have the most high=yhvh, but in the most basic sense of the reading YHVH is given Israel BY the Most High. To say they had developed to be understood as one and the same in the first century is a VAST stretch with what we know now. It appears to me that there was split interpretation on it in Jesus day much like catholics and protestants and like this psalm 82 passage. But this interpretation doesn't seem to change until after the early church fathers or I their later period and we have inherited misunderstandings just now being corrected. I believe wholly that most all new testament theology from the 4th century up until now is flawed and it is only now in the last 100 years plus being corrected, but getting it from the scholar to the pulpits audience carries a long lag period.
I'm wondering if the "they" in verse 5 refers to "the wicked" at the end of verse 4. Does that correspond with the conventions of the Hebrew language?
I have enjoyed your videos on TikTok and here on RUclips. Thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge about Christianity, the Bible, and religions in general.
If Adoni started out as The God of Israel , would that not make him one of the Gods of the Nations ? Psalm 82 is referring to the High God as Elohim. Which as you point out in Duteronomomy 32:8 is the father of Adoni and all the other gods of the nations who are the members of the divine council . Taken on its face, with no other information, Psalm 82 seems to be Elohim taking back power , including over Israel by making Adoni mortal. What am I missing ? Is there a syncretism somewhere that I missed ?
Can you please do a segment on what your core beliefs are? Just a simple "this is what I believe".
Good exposition. I would certainly say the Psalm is directed at human council. The Sadducees believe they're the final authority; and will be spoken as such at all times. The mood is quite impatient like that of a young adult. The psalms start that way and grow through life seasons... (Not to mention styles) not much revelation of works(leviathan,supply chain of bread, formation of mountains with hands), or patience, or thanksgiving... With the names(lawd) Hashem, El Shaddai, Azezel, Elijah to Elisha. Whom is being untreated indeed. The one and only child of God never made that claim. Instead said we're all are and capable of greater. Thanks for your favorite Psalm. Myself am all about that objective truth love that Psalm 23.
Also Yeshua states clearly that he nor the father judges. John 5:22
While I'm listening to myself text; judgement has been a stumbling block since the perfect state. The cursed fruit (due to being out of its season) of the knowledge of good and evil or our judgement. We don't understand the lord's ways for we ourselves are craven. So until Israel can produce just one fruit in its season (according to their laws Jubilee)I consider their testimony dubious @ best.
Children of el
Were any of the gospels written during Jesus’ life?
Immediately after. Matthews contents were likely recorded during his period but I doubt the full text was. No different than the 5 books of Moses were.
No. Paul started writing I believe around 20 years after Jesus’ death. Mark, the first Gospel, was written about 40 years after Jesus’s death. Matthew, Luke, and John came later.
Thankyou for this! Just fascinating! Professor Patricia Hayes contends the Hebrew Bible isn't suitable for children doesn't she?
she contends a lot of things. I like listening to her lectures a lot. I don't agree with much but I like her view, she's excited talking about things, has some good insights.
@@TurtleRocker12 it isn't her opinion it's scholarship on the subject. Her lecturers are based on a consensus of research and expert knowledge based on research.
@@debbieshrubb1222 fair. I think I was thinking of Christine Hayes? Are they the same person?
@@TurtleRocker12 Professor Patricia Hayes is a Yale professor; I have no idea who Christine Hayes is.
The earth or dirt? Maybe foundation, like how the forefathers of US borrowed from the scriptures.
8 Levántate, oh Dios, juzga la tierra;
Porque tú heredarás todas las naciones.
. In Spanish
The long-format content here is really enjoyable. But keep doing TikTok!
It seem like Jesus is just saying that if angelic beings can be called “gods” (Psalm 82), than God’s messiah (who is also called His son) has even more right to the title “god”.
Algormancy!
I bet everybody living in the surrounding nations were like, "wtf did they just say?" 😅
Yeah, the Israelites as gods must've really screwed up, because not only were they consigned to die like mortals; they weren't even allowed to eat bacon on the way.
Oh you did a great job right up to John 10 here's what Jesus is saying now a lot of people twist this you got to remember that Jesus is not going to back down from calling himself one with the father and being God even the God of Israel
Psalm 82 says God took his place in the Divine council and he judges among the gods ultimately you get to the point where he says if he called them gods to whom the word of God came this is not a reference to Sinai that actually fits in Psalm 82 The word of God and Psalm 82 is adonai
Adonai is the Lord of the council he is judging these gods placed over the nations at Babel according to Deuteronomy 32 8 9
What Jesus is saying in a nutshell He's talking to the people that want to stone him and he says look according to Psalm 82 you should know there's more than one thing in heaven called Elohim if he call them gods to whom the word of God came and that's Jesus coming to these gods in judgment
Basically Jesus is saying look Psalm 82 says there's more than one thing in heaven called Elohim and if I'm one of them why do you say that I blaspheme when I say I am the son of God and I've been consecrated and sent into the world to do his will
If you study the Hebrew Bible you'll understand there are five things that are called Elohim in the Hebrew Old testament
YHWH is one
Angels or sons of God are two
Demons are 3
Gods of the Nations such as baal and asherah are 4
And the departed spirits of dead humans such as Saul the King summoning Samuel the prophet from the dead with the witch of endor
Now let's make a simplicity of all of these five categories The simple observation is none of these are equal to YHWH he is unique He's one of a kind and this includes Jesus in this category because he's the second person of the Trinity He's one of a kind and unique
None of these other four categories don't even get close to the abilities and who it is that Yahweh is so it's not inequality test what they all have in common are they are disembodied spirits that live in a certain location such as heaven or under the earth it's a postal address category so this makes more sense when Jesus says look fellas and I know that you want to kill me because I said me and my father we are one but you got a problem here there's more than one thing in heaven called Elohim and if I'm one of them and I've been sanctified and sent into the world why do you say that I blaspheme when I come to do God's will by his permission so I don't think it is the law at Sinai that makes the Israelites God's this gives the other cults out there the ability to shift from this theory that somehow humans can become gods and that's not accurate from the Bible and so if you're interested read more of Michael S heiser's work on the divine council and you probably have heard of him professor of semitic studies
But you did an excellent job laying out the framework of this dialogue which a lot of people don't understand bravo
I “got” your reading of Psalms 82, but am having a hard time understanding it in Jesus’ reference in John 10. If he is referencing psalms 82 6 then doesn’t it redefine who God is speaking to in the psalms? Having issues making these 2 fit together. Are you saying Jesus is not referring to Psalms 82 6? Seems like it is footnoted that way in many different versions of the Bible. Why do you think so many versions make this reference?
Is this the establishment of a mono-theistic mindset; or did Jesus understand there to be many gods, but his god to be the highest among many?
That is, how did the Jewish teachers deal with the Greek pantheon?
Atheism?
Agnosticism?
Do those frameworks even make sense to cast on the people at the time?
*_Nevertheless_*_ you shall die like humans_
“Nevertheless” contrasts humans to gods. It wouldn’t make sense (it’s not required to) if the previous part was not referring to non-humans who are usually not expected to die.
So Adonai is Alpha. Got it.
Also Omega
Adam over here's eating the low-hanging fruit.
@@brylinanthony1052 it was Ryan who tricked me!
No one appreciates good scholarship more than myself as a lifetime academic with multiple earned and advanced academic degrees. As long as I understand that this author does not believe in the infallibility of God’s word and treats it as more of a textbook, then I can appreciate what he saying, but as a believer, or rather one who is convinced through true academic scholarship, that the Bible is the true word of God , yes, even as it has been preserved today, I cannot except a person, saying that Jesus interpretation of scripture is wrong, or misguided, or not informed, sorry, but I cannot buy this based on the truth and witness of God‘s word, and his Holy Spirit!
why do you pronounce yahweh as adoni? It's confusing
Friends of his asked him to respect their traditions about the name when he's making casual videos.
I am not convinced of your angelic council interpretation. These Elohim walk in darkness and they „know” nothing. In 2. Samuel 14,20 we learn that Angels of God know all things in the earth. How can you have a whole council of ignorant Elohim ? That makes little sense.
Is it possible that there are 2 groups of spiritual beings? The angels that stayed faithful and then the fallen ones thst rebelled against God. I believe these gods mentioned here are the rulers, authorities, principalitues, and dominions as mentoned in Eph 6. The fulfillment of the words in this Psalm, are fulfilled in 1Cor 15:24, which says when Christ returns he will destroy these rulers, authorities, and principalities. As Christians, our role is to demonstrate the manifold wisdom of God to these forces of evil Eph 3:10.
Why do you say "ADONAI"? It says Yahwe. If you are cozying up to Jews, why don't you say Lord or "the Name"?
Adonai litteraly means "lord".
@@vumerion5481, no. "Adon" means 'lord', and "Adonai" is the dual form of Adon.
Dan, have you read what Raymond Rogers says, one of the original scientists who examined the Shroud in 1978?
"The Shroud of Turin is much older than the medieval date that modern science has affixed to it and could be old enough to have been the burial wrapping of Jesus, a new analysis concludes.
Since 1988, most scientists have confidently concluded that it was the work of a medieval artist, because carbon dating had placed the production of the fabric between 1260 and 1390.
In an article this month in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Dr. Raymond N. Rogers, a chemist retired from Los Alamos National Laboratory, said the carbon dating test was valid but that the piece tested was about the size of a postage stamp and came from a portion that had been patched.
"We're darned sure that part of the cloth was not original Shroud of Turin cloth," he said, adding that threads from the main part of the shroud were pure linen, which is spun from flax.
The threads in the patched portion contained cotton as well and had been dyed to match.
From other tests, he estimated that the shroud was between 1,300 and 3,000 years old."
www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/science/shroud-of-turin-old-as-jesus.html