It's now 3:17AM here, and I have my sister's wedding tomorrow, so I should sleep (or drink copious amounts of caffeine). Hope you enjoyed the video! Let me know down below: what's the rivalry between your hero and villain like? Stay nerdy! GET ON WRITING AND WORLDBUILDING VOL II (the book with ALL the discussions we've had + tons of extra depth and detail) I linktr.ee/timhickson ~ Tim
Hey Tim! I know you probably won't reply/recognise this, and I respect that. But if you do, could your next writing video please be on romantic relationships and how to develop them through the books in a series? I'm writing a fantasy book series called 'The Song of the Sun', and I need some tips on how to develop the relationship between 'Alex' and 'Cara' (It takes them 4 books to get together). For my hero and villain, not sure for books 1-4, but in book 6, the new villain is 'mirror': an other dimensional copy of Alex that has acted like a best friend since the end of the 4th book. He has a similar personality to Alex, if not slightly more sarcastic, but becomes extremely ruthless in the 6th book. I also have a possible idea of Mirror using void magic to turn Cara against Alex, which is the "hurting hero like no one else can" part. Your writing videos also helped me create my magic system, and I'd be happy to comment again telling you! Hope you like the ideas! Stay nerdy, bud!
Hello Future Me pray from knights run , become of how well they build the relationship between the Anna and pray and feeding there character flaws over the years of war pray becomes a big problem that needs dealing with war self reflection and the weakness of the hero knight are strong themes in this like taking or saving people becomes a self distractive drug too the main character in this I really hope you do. A review. At some point
The world cannot be amazing without a story. No matter how realistic or romanticized, creative and original; the world's greatness (in my opinion as a random comment on youtube with no professional experience) depends on how the characters explore the world through the story. My advice is this, practice writing stories in our normal world, try to see where you can find conflict on the day-to-day basis, and then do the same with your world.
CYS Correia The problem with that theory is that milieu storytelling contradicts that. The idea of a milieu story is in the journey or the discovery of a world. Much of Tolkien's work is milieu. Yes, there is a plot occurring within it, but the major focus is in exploring the lore and history and depth of a newly discovered world.
Slippery Ginger Milieu story doesn't contradict this, a milieu story is simply a story where the main focus is on the world rather than the characters and story. However, this doesn't contradict what I was trying to say that the world depends on the story. For example, in Harry Potter, the things that mainly affect the story are what receive more focus. Immagine if the 3 headed dog was something used to protect precious objects in the world and it did not appear in the story. It would be something cool, but not it wouldn't make the world more engaging. By having the 3 headed the dog be an obstacle that the characters have to overcome, it makes the world more engaging through the story. Again, this is just my opinion, I don't believe that there are rules in writing.
CYS Correia This does mean that in some ways the plot or story is simply a lens through which the world is presented. Now it is entirely necessary to have both a compelling story and an interesting world even if that world is our own or is adjacent to our's. My problem is I've created a world in which numerous great stories are possible, but I haven't found one that resonates with the themes and ideas presented in the world.
Humm... I see ur problem. I can't help a lot without seeing the world (and even then I don't know how much I could help). But I imagine that if there are themes in your world, there are probably characters involved with them. For example, if ur writing a sci-fi, and you have a theme of loneliness- everyone lives close to each other in a big city but don't know each other- or class division- poor get poorer- then you could pick a character that lives those experiences. Or could do a TGG a write from the perspective of a character that doesn't get involved with the story; or a GOT and write from the perspectives of several characters to fit ur theme. I don't know, but I would like to help, if any of this is usefull then I'm glad, if not... maybe he'll make the video.
Actually I did not come up with this but each of Batman's villains is supposedly one of his strong qualities turned against him example given Joker is his own Insanity turned against him, Catwoman his own attractiveness turned against him, Penguin is his money turned against him, Etc.
Leo Fernandez yeah I think it just applies to the original and some of the better Batman villains though I like poison ivy but I can't figure out what she would be in relation to Batman. Bane I assume is fighting ability, and Riddler intelligence but it kind of falls apart if you go into a lot of the newer villains.
Kcech Oxzar that's a very interesting point, but just as poison ivy is not truly a plant would that go deeper then, and suggest that Bruce does not consider himself truly a human but wants to belong?
Moriarty and Sherlock is one of my all-time favorite rivalries. Sherlock is a self-admitting sociopath. He is very pessimistic and comes off as cold-blooded in his philosophy. He treats other people rudely and with contempt. Then he befriends John and becomes much kinder, gentler and more optimistic. He will do terrible things, but only to protect those he loves from those who would hurt them. Moriarty is a full-blown psychopath, which Sherlock recognizes fairly early in their rivalry. He does terrible things out of boredom. I think when he says Moriarty is similar to him he is doing more than stalling or unnerving him. Sherlock is admitting to himself and his rival that he could have ended up a destructive psychopath too if he never met John. Their similarities in philosophy, dress, mannerisms, habits and core personality traits (when we first meet them) leads up to this encounter, which also shows us how much Sherlock has changed.
I think it works because Ozai was meant to test Aang’s morality. And he was the character best suited to do so, which is why it’s sorta okay to have him as a one-dimensional evil overlord.
To some extent he covered that in "On Writing Final Battles" you should check it out if you haven't yet. I know it's not exactly the same thing, the antagonist could die before the final battle or the antagonist could die without ever having a final battle, I think, but it might still help you out with killing the antagonist.
In a really compelling novel, who is the antagonist? What if the two adversaries have the same desire, but see one another as the one who is hindering their ultimate goal? Philosophically, they believe differently, but they want the same thing in the end. Who is the hero and who is the villain?
Please include parents that don't die, or crappy biological mothers; the latter seems to be prevalent in real life but taboo in many narratives. I blame the Grimms.
It's been years & it appears he hasn't. I've been subscribed, waiting all this time. I've searched his channel to see if I missed it. He hasn't yet & may never do so. The lack of a Family theme video hurts me too. It is sorely missed.
Dude, this was just... such a good video. I wish you were my creative writing teacher. I have a couple "rivalries" I've formed my own works but there just feels like something is missing.
I subbed to this channel specifically for these writing videos and I'm personally loving it. I've been laying out the general structure and world of a fantasy story for several months now and you've helped me think of the story, magic system, and now hero/villain dynamics in ways I've never considered before. Thanks so much, and keep up with the awesome videos :)
Literally the only character this question has ever worked for is Galactus. (seriously, read the Fantastic Four graphic novel "The Trial of Galactus", it's amazing)
Really cool way to do this would be a character that’s grown up brainwashed to be the baddie they are but once they’re on their own they start to think for themselves and have to find redemption not just for aproval of others but to live with their own actions, it could really dig into intergenerational trauma, independance and critical thinking vs family and social norms/ traditions, and the resulting loneliness this character would feel as they realize the ways of their family that they can’t go back to while being also hated by others for where they come from and behaviors they’re still working on undoing
Tim stated that his "necessary opponent would steal Mishka away from him...or die trying". Can't you all see the truth? He's referencing spyro, the dark lord. It's yet another one of his sneaky hints dropped into his videos to warn us about Spyro's underlying ambitions. We, the Subfuries, must stop the foul beast before he takes our beloved leader away from us(and Tim's pants). We need as much support as possible. All Hail Mishka! If you are wondering what on earth im on about, watch Tims previous videos and hunt my comments like wolves hunt their prey; then, and only then, will you see Spyros true motivations... anyway... All i could think of throughout the episode was RTTE😂 "When the hero doesn't know who the villain is until this moment" all i think of is RTTE...like how Hiccup doesn't know who Drago Bludvist is but we know whats coming. Good ol' dramatic irony. "Strong similarities to make them stand out", Vigo and Hiccup were both cunning and used intelligence in their war against each other, they both had pride and liked to play fair which is what ended up in vigo joining Hiccup.
I thought Drago was also a strong foil for Hiccup. Both have suffered great loss and injury because of dragons, and yet their viewpoints are vastly different, Each is also what the other could have been--light and dark reflections of the same base character and their relationship with dragons.
PhoenyxRysing That's true however drago didn't share the same relationship with hiccup as vigo did, you could say that vigo and hiccup depended on each other whereas Drago's threat was very quickly dealt with so they didn't develop that bond, Drago just saw Hiccup as another object getting in his way.
+wolf forces I've heard Drago's the main antagonist for the third one, so I guess we'll have to see how that plays out. I'm also a bit behind on Race to the Edge, so I've yet to see how everything concludes.
I've written a story in which the villain is the hero's author, subjecting the character through a variety of trials to allow for a story to unfold. The idea was to create a villain limited not by the scope of his power, but rather just his motivation. It also allowed for a high degree of freedom in the development of the story.
Srin for some reason I'm imagining a narrator type situation where the narrator says and suddenly there was a pack of wolves in front of him. Then the character breaks the fourth wall to talk to the narrator xD
Very interesting. It reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's 'Breakfast of Champions" where one of the main characters, Kilgore Trout, discovers he's a fictional character and meets his creator, Kurt Vonnegut HIMSELF.
It's kind of like my d&d campaign oddly enough, where it's been mentioned that everything in that universe except for the PCs (Player Characters) are controlled by Fate, and are mentioned as 'outside of Fate' and that's why they're the main characters. With 'Fate' loosely being implied as the DM (Dungeon Master) or myself. Ultimately the final boss will be me, as they realize that all the pain and suffering of the world is my fault and they will fight to replace me as the god of Fate and become the DM themselves, as the world cannot exist without one.
Since we're referencing whatever the idea reminds us of, I'll recommend the animation "Princess Tutu", which takes place in a town trapped inside the story of a dead author, but the dead author is still trying to write an epic tragedy around our heroes.
So I discovered this channel at about five this morning starting with his three part series on writing and, i've already watched so many videos. It's gotten to a point where i literally have a journal out on my desk writing and taking notes about the things hes teaching me in this video to help me make the world i've dreamed of since i was 13 (i'm now 18). Fleshing out things i could never figure out before, giving characters motivations I never thought of before and really helping me create this world i've always wanted to. So thank you for being the channel you are; I know its a little fast to say, but it really has helped and i've already subscribed. Side note, i hope this post isn't too cringy or poorly written to make my thanks seem worthless in anyway, this has swiftly within hours become one of my favorite RUclips channels and I hope it grows.
Perhaps you could do a video on secondary characters and their relationship to both the antagonist and protagonist as well as their relationship with each other.
What if: The villain a selfless and compassionate person whose actions will put lives at risk. The hero is a cruel selfish person who wants to stop the villain to further their agenda. Through the conflict, the hero's selfishness leads to many unnecessary deaths. The hero fails to thwart the villain's plan because of their selfishness. Hero has a crisis of conscience after the villain gives the hero a reality check. Turns out the hero always saw themselves as a morally decent person, but lacked compassion, selflessness and empathy. The villain always believed that their dogmatic approach to morality would always achieve the best results, but was too naive to realise how harmful they truly were. The hero gives the villain a reality check regarding how flawed their dogmatic beliefs are. The villain learns how to be less naive and the hero learns how to be a better person. The two realise that they could learn a lot from each other, and team up to face up against a larger threat. Could this be a good hero/villain story?
It's certainly an intriguing concept. You could really have something here if it was well written out. I feel like I've seen novels featuring this sort of role reversal, but for the life of me cannot remember where...
If protagonist is a selfish asshole who does more harm than good, he’s a villain. If the antagonist is an altruistic good guy who tries to do the right thing, he’s the hero.
I think it more less depends on the writing skill of the person trying to do it. I totally have no plans to actually try and steal this alter it slightly and use this in my own writing. No plans at all.
Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "The Asylum is destroyed." Dalek: "Incoming teleport from Asylum planet. We are under attack!" Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Prepare to defend! Defend! Defend!" Dalek Prime Minister: "Explain, Dalek Supreme!" The Doctor: [from off-screen] You know, you guys should really have seen this coming. Thing about me and teleports, I've got a really good aim. Pin-point accurate, in fact. Or, to put it another way..." [he sticks his head out the TARDIS door] "Suckers!" Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Identify yourself!" Dalek: "Identify!" Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Identify!" The Doctor: "Well, it's me! You know me, the Doctor! The Oncoming Storm, the Predator--" Darla: "Titles are not meaningful in this context. Doctor who?" Dalek Prime Minister: "Doctor who?" Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Doctor who?!" The Doctor: "Oh, Oswin. Oh, you did it to them all." [grins] "You beauty!" Daleks: "DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?!" The Doctor: "Fellas, you're never gonna stop asking!"
Thought provoking video as always. I think my favorite part of the hero villain relationship is the question of significance. Often times the hero and villain are the most significant characters in one another's lives.
My hero: Damien, a shepherd from a remote village chosen by the Goddess to combat the rising tide of Darkness in the land. His necessary opponent: (in Book 1) Eura, a fallen angel who has turned against the Goddess' teachings. Why Eura is uniquely suited to challenge Damien: Eura has consciously given up the power of Light and Healing because of the Goddess' rule forbidding that the angels interfere in the affairs of mortals. She still thinks what she is doing is in the best interests of the people of the world, but her solution to the problem of suffering is to conquer the world, to rule it with an iron fist, since humans obviously can't be trusted to rule themselves. Damien, on the other hand, is young and idealistic, and fully believes that if he follows the Goddess then everything will turn out okay. (He's the Chosen One, after all.) So when he's confronted with his own folly (that bad things happen and the Goddess doesn't do anything about it), he is shaken to his core. Damien believes that Eura is evil, through and through, but Eura still thinks that she is the true hero of the story and Damien is a fool.
Alright. Sounds like pretty straightforward Authority Vs. Rebellion, speaking thematically. Some questions to consider: 1. Even someone sheltered and naive would probably put together that if the Goddess could stop every bad thing from happening, they would resolve the entire plot themselves and wouldn't need a Chosen One. Why, then, would it be shocking for Damien to discover that? 2. Why doesn't the Goddess interfere in the affairs of mortals, aside from clearly some level of religious authority? Is she physically unable to, or unwilling? Why would she be unwilling? The answer to this question will answer why Damien would be morally opposed to Eura as opposed to joining forces, aside from blind religious dogmatism. 3. Couldn't Eura also be considered sheltered and naive? Does she understand how human societies or human cultures work? Does she know how to establish and maintain a large empire; economics, politics, religion, etc., or is she behaving childishly and having trouble because no matter how much control she exerts, people just don't work how she expects them to? 4. Consider the dramatic irony between these two. Damien willingly submits to a higher Authority and obeys the Goddess, yet his obedience to the Goddess requires rebelling against the establishment of Eura's Authority, while Eura rebels against the Goddess' authority, while expecting humans to unquestioningly obey her own. What is it that gives someone the authority to demand obedience? Is it wisdom? Is it kindness? Is it being the creator of something?
I'm 17, currently doing world building on a story right now. I REALLY appreciate your videos on writing, as I'm having a lot of trouble with making my story great.
Dewayne Grant you are young. what seems "great" now might seem like shit in the near future, especially when looking at your own work. you are on the right path, more so than I was at your age, but don't fall into the trap I did of getting rid of work you feel didn't live up to your expectation. Dan Harmon had an interesting take on this. if you fear being a shitty writer, prove your fears right. if you start to feel like your story is shlock, write fun shlock. Writing is the most important part of writing (duh), as long as you are writing, you are improving. don't ever expect to make a masterpiece, expect to make shit and you may be surprised by the results.
One thing I loved about Legend of Korra is that each villain challenged an aspect of the thing she cherishes most as part of her identity: being the Avatar. Book 1, Korra believes she is a half-baked Avatar because of her stalled mastery over the four elements, and Amon can literally take those powers away, rendering her powerless. Book 2, Korra is confronted with her spiritual failings as the Avatar and her relationship between her family and her nation, and Unalaq creates a rift between both and proves to be her superior in spiritual understanding, eventually becoming a Dark Avatar to replace her (though this was done really shitty). Book 3, Korra heralds an era of spiritual and cultural change that coincides with the rebirth of the Airbenders, and Zaheer and his Red Lotus arrive to break down the governments she's been butting heads with bureaucratically, while also murdering her in the Avatar State to remove the Avatar as an obstacle forever, threatening the new Air Nation in the process. And last, Book 4 gives us a Korra who is trapped in a PTSD cycle who abandons her duties as the Avatar to recover from her trauma, while Kuvira rises to power and claims that the new world doesn't even need an Avatar, and her defeat of Korra in their duel outside Zaofu threatens Korra's relevancy and influence; she doesn't have to de-power Korra, replace Korra, or eliminate Korra's role as previous villains tried to do, she just has to show the world that Korra isn't needed.
I'm so glad to see that someone else properly recognizes the deliciousness of muffins! Oh yeah, and I enjoyed your insight into character relationships. But priorities must be kept!
Lemme start by saying you have exponentially changed how I write and made me massively better since I started watching you about a year or two ago you’re amazing and thank you so much man
This helped me with writing my villain - thank you so much! before, I hadn't really planned out much interaction between the main character and the antagonist, but now i realise how important their interaction is.
I absolutely love this On Writing series, and I can't wait to see more of it. You have some really excellent insight into this idea. These videos are why I'm subscribed, damn, so great :P
Your point at the end of the video really reminds me of the Big Bads on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Each season, the big bad reflects the obstacle Buffy has to overcome to grow up.
Hey Tim! Wonderful job as usual, very insightful and very helpful. I've got several of these rivalries, but I think the most interesting one is one where my protagonist serves the antagonist directly, and has to get out of it in order to save lives. Suggestion for a video: the art of the anti-hero
Thank you! Love how you break it down so simply. Love all the hard work you put into presentation! Crisp and to the point! Easy to remember while you write.
Hey Tim! I just wanted to say that you have a new subscriber and I honestly think you deserve more! Your theories usually impressed me, or else made me think of certain concepts in a way a had never thought of before - but then you made the ‘on writing’ videos and they are honestly more healpful than a lot of videos made by published authors. I guess people didn’t lie when they said reading would be good practice for writing. Anyway, I have a question (or rather a video suggestion) - what is your advice on writing a story about personal struggle? How could you write a story in which the protagonist is actually a villain (or a villain to themselves)? It would be nice to see some good axamples, as all most stories I’ve seen centred around this theme are lack-luster. Anyone else have some advice?
One of the most interesting hero/villain conflict I've read in comics was the Adam Warlock vs. The Magus storyline. It turns the hero is the mirror image of the villain completely on its ear. It's still available in paperback form so I won't spoil the story if you want to read it.
I've listened to this video so many times while writing my fantasy book, and I'm currently just a few days from finishing the third draft. Thank you for all the work you do, Tim!
I love your work! Not everything is applicable to me YET because I have a lot to work on for my story, but ... just ... yes! Theres so much information set in an interesting way.
Griffin Walker right but it really fails on the villain part too it tries to have two main villains each taking half of the movie the tone change is so bad it hurts
Agreed. Movie would've been better if they had just sidelined Klaw or used him for another movie. Killmonger in this movie has the set up to be a fascinating villain both on his own and as a foil for T'Challa but since half the plot is devoted to a villain other than him it weakens both the plot which ends up disjointed and him as a character because we don't get the progression between him and T'Challa that really sells us on their dynamic.
6 лет назад+19
Griffin Walker not really. X-Men did it better. You see Magneto get disillusioned with humans and see why he starts going Hitler on them and trying to wipe them out. Killmonger you just hear it. Also, Killmonger killing his gf erased any empathy. What’s the goal? Saving black people? He just killed an unarmed black person. He’s a hypocrite. He’s throwing a decade-long tantrum is what he’s doing.
Bob Pickleson Yeah, he only really works as a villian if he is supposed to be a vengeful psycopath who wants to qonquer the world. Who is just using the excuse of fighting for black people to get military support. I think thats also pretty well built up. Except I dont think that was intentional which doesnt only make him a bad villian. But a horrible written character.
Bob Pickleson Yeah, he only really works as a villian if he is supposed to be a vengeful psycopath who wants to qonquer the world. Who is just using the excuse of fighting for black people to get military support. I think thats also pretty well built up. Except I dont think that was intentional which doesnt only make him a bad villian. But a horrible written character.
This was actually hugely helpful to me! I've been working on a story for quite literally *years* but could never get far because, while I had sunk time into worldbuilding, characterizing my heroes, and contemplating themes, I'd fundamentally neglected a "necessary opponent" for my protags! Hopefully this will lead to new writing fervor. Thank you!
Damn. I'm not really sure if I can properly portray just how fascinating and informative your videos really are, so I won't bother going into detail. All I can say is "Thank You for making these videos, they're beyond amazing and have been a massive help for developing my own writing and characters." You rock, hands down.
The relationship between the Doctor and the Master is one beautiful sight to behold. Friends, rivals, enemies, The other is the only one that can fully understand each other, what they have been through, what it is like to walk throughout the universe as everything turns into dust.
I looked at TDK Joker differently. Still a match for our friend in a rodent costume -I know bats aren't rodents, go with it- but because he's methodical. You don't just CD a hospital or orchestrate a hostage dilemma by truly being chaotic and random, you do it by being intelligent and meticulous. Joker arguably had Batman in the palm of his hand for most of the movie, and even got him to cross some serious ethical lines. This was his plan. Oh Jesus, does this mean TDK is a story about the power of friendship prevailing, since the apparent difference is that Bruce had people who cared enough to speak up?
could we maybe see a essay on writing a story where the pov character isn't a "good guy" also maybe on when the overarching opponent is the believes of your character
What you describe for #3 is my favorite type of villain. I want to see heroes make certain choices because either they or/and the audience know what kind of person they would be if they didn't.
I'm loving these videos! They are so informative and thought provoking for a writer such as myself. You should do one on main character romantic relationships and their place within a story.
I am in the process of creating a new campaign story for a D&D and these videos are super helpful in building a cohesive world with a compelling plot. I can already tell my players are getting pretty invested in the world and this video should make my antagonist really good. Thanks for making these great videos, I look forward to more.
hey Hello Future Me, i just want to say i love these videos and they really help me with my own writing. i take notes and study them to help my own progression, and I think its helped a bit, so I want to say thank you and keep it up!
IMO in BvS, I thought the film was about exposing the illusion of conflict or power, the film tells us that they do have a conflict but actively shows us they don't. They are both broken by the ideologies they chose to embody but failed to become them and when they realised they were both broken, both human, they transcended their ideologies.Great video though. This was just what I thought.
I really love your on writing videos they help so much and eager young writers to make the best story their imagination can take them the right way. I'm glad my instincts didn't make me write those mistakes about my protagonist and antagonist relationship. Thanks again for the video, enjoy at your sister's wedding, and congratulations to the to-be-newly-wed couples 😄😄
Hello! Just wanted to let you know that I’m absolutely loving your channel. Every time I watch one of your videos I’m motivated to write again, and often times I walk away with new inspirations and ideas. So thank you!! Will you be doing episodes on FMA/Brotherhood in the future? I’d love to see some deconstruction of that series! Thanks!
Happy to know I could help in some small way, and all the best with your writing! While I don't so much intend to break down *specific* stories (in the same way I did ATLA) very often, FMAB is a go-to for storytelling for me, in many respects. So you'll definitely see it referenced in the future. ~ Tim
thank you so much, your videos help me build my fictional world and characters, even though I'm not an author (I'm making a story for a series). still, thank you so much. your writing videos are inspiring!
"We're not so different, you and I." The example of this I love the most comes from Star Trek Nemesis. Shinzon uses that line on Picard, telling him how with a bit of a different history, he would have come out exactly like him. But later in that same scene, Picard throws that right back at him, telling Shinzon the exact same thing. This works so well for a couple reasons. One, it is not the same tired trope of "hey we're the same!" but actually looks at the cause of their differences. If this one thing was different in your life, we'd be the same. This carries an implication that they could change; with just a proper shift in perspective or by falling to the exact same weakness, the hero would indeed be the same as the villain. Two, the way Picard shifts it back onto Shinzon manages to work so much more powerfully than Shinzon's attempt to use it on Picard. Normally in this trope the hero doesn't sputter at the comparison. "No! I'm nothing like you! Because the reasons we are different are more important than the reasons we are the same!" But the villain who first proposed that similarity is the one who saw that similarity; they are the ones who already believe it. So when Picard turns it back on Shinzon and tell him how he could have been a different man, it hits Shizon harder, and you can actually see him pause for a moment at the thought. And the implication mentioned earlier becomes so much stronger, both to the characters and also to the audience. Shinzon could change; Shinzon could become the man he oddly admires. Perhaps in a different world where their character arc could have been more than a two hour movie, this could have been explored.
"in Eoin Colfer's Artemis Fowl" I NEARLY SPIT OUT MY DRINK YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT I'M NOT ALONE IN THIS FANDOM god bless you for having wonderful and similar literary taste so this poor socially uncultured teen can better understand writing
I love your vids. In a future one of these I would love it to be about how animals can be incorporated into a story, both as companions to the characters, and just a part of the books world. PS: I really like animals
Miss Roschen I agree. I mostly read stuff like that. Wings of fire, warriors, bravelands. On the side closer to what my comment was about, I have read the httyd books, spirit animals, and Gregor the overlander. Books without animals entirely don't intresting me. Two of the saddest stories I have read and watched in movie form, nothing else comes close, are old yeller and hachico a dog's tale. It is kinda weird, but I feel like one thing exemplifies this. All the stuff about how dogs dying in movies makes the directors "evil" but people dying doesn't matter. All on all, animals are awesome, Espessialy in stories
Like how the inclusion of porgs into the latest Star Wars movie raised it up a level in the public eye. I’d love to see a video considering animal components into the story as so many fantastic fantasy stories build their worlds by incorporating mysterious and interesting animals into the narrative.
Those ideas sound awesome. ^^ I love animals too! But that'll take some research I think compared to what he's doing now, so maybe we won't get this for awhile. Hope he see's this though. I'd really appreciate these topics.
I agree, animals to me can add a sense of realism and strong worldbuilding. I especially enjoy stories that explore ethics and relationships between animal and humans. I’m currently reading the Rain Wild series (by Robin Hobb - check her out, her books are really good!) and one of the main characters - along with some side characters - is (for lack of better words) half-lizard. She is therefor denied many rights such as marriage. In the first book, (slight spoilers) the dragons are also sentient, and there is conflict where some humans don’t believe this. The story is centred (almost indirectly - it’s not boring to read) around the ethics concerning these creatures. I hope Tim makes a video on (or someone else explains) how such factors can be incorporated in an interesting manner into a story. Sorry for the long comment XD
G. Snapdragon thanks for taking so much interest in my little comment! I really have to read that series you’re talking about, it sounds amazing! It’s incredible how people can use writing and strong character building to tackle complex and relevant topics.
Death Note is the perfect example of a well done antagonist vs protagonist story with Light and L who are so similar only they could challenge the other. It's made all the more interesting by the fact that the labels of protagonist and antagonist could be applied to either character, it just depends on what the viewer thinks justice is.
Damn, man! You just gave me a new idea that I only loosely touched on and could have dropped! I've been setting my story up as it being a battle between brothers; twin heirs of a powerful heritage. But, you just gave me an idea for a surprise villain. He and the hero ultimately want the same thing, and they both approach it from the viewpoint of hopelessness and disgust, but they have very different views on how to do it and how meaningful the victory can be.
Actually, Gon & Meruem aren't really rivals. In fact, I'd argue that Gon isn't even the central figure in the Chimera Ant arc after Kite dies - he disappears for episodes at a time, and his conflict with Neferpitou only indirectly affects the outcome of the arc. Hell, I'm pretty sure Gon never even sees Meruem in person. So much of the Chimera Ant arc doesn't follow typical storytelling conventions that it's difficult to analyze it using conventional nomenclature.
True, at the same way Deku is the successor of the Peace Sign, Shigaraki is the same for the Evil Sign. They both suffer their masters fall at the same time, and All for One ssid that the worst thing All Might could do for Deku, is to not die, because, standing and his side, he's not letting him to grow, while Shigaraki, instead, becomes stronger by AFO's loss. Both characters evolve in a similar way, being Shigaraki as a dark mirror of Deku.
I gotta say Harry Potter and Voldemort (sorry I shouldn’t have said that), Batman v Joker, and Aang and Zuko are the 3 best rivalries I have ever seen.
These writing advice videos are great ;) In terms of RTTE I definitely think Viggo was one of the best foils for Hiccup, and in my own fanfics I’ve got a sort of ongoing rivalry occurring between Hiccup and this villain who is kind of a cross between ‘Drago Bludvist wannabe’ and ‘Hiccup if he was more of an arrogant sod’. This video is definitely making me think more deeply about their relationship and how it affects the narrative.
Hiya there! I have a request that I thought might make a good pt2: a villain but with a higher level like Sauron is to Frodo Baggins or maybe something more direct like the avatar to Ozai
Honestly really good video I've come back a watched it many times to help when writing the rival to my hero. Now the rival isn't necessarily a villain, it's more of a hero vs anti-hero situation. Both are actually actively trying to take down the real evil organization. The rival believes that the "law of nature is absolute," that "the strong will eat the weak," therefore strength is the most important thing in life, this is mainly due to the circumstances of the rival's bad upbringing which is a direct result the evil organization that he is now after. While the hero believes that those who are strong and possess power are morally obligated to protect the weak. The problem I'm having though is actually putting these two at odds when they are both fighting a common enemy because I do want them to fight for story purposes. I plan for the hero to have ice powers and the rival to have fire powers and in the first encounter the rival actually wins. This would cause the hero to question himself and his own power but after some character development and training the hero becomes stronger than ever before and the next time they face off the hero is powerful enough to actually freeze the rival's fire (kinda like how Gray from Fairy Tail does when he fights Natsu). Then over the course of the story the rival and hero come to understand each other become close friends and allies against their common enemy. I really stuggle trying to come up with a believable reason for these two characters to fight and be at odds despite the common enemy. The only thing I can really think of is that the rival crosses lines that makes the hero feel like he has to stop him such as getting innocent caught in the crossfire of his crusade against the evil organization and the rival not caring for the innocent because in his eyes he is strong and they are weak. But the problem comes from which lines he crosses or which lines should he cross to warrent the attention of the hero. Like how far is too far for him to still be "redeemed" and join the hero as an ally because if you don't have lines that can't be crossed then you have "talk no jutsu" from Naruto where even a villain like Obito who started a Ninja War which resulted in a lot of death and even killed Neji can be redeemed.
I think one of the greatest hero/villain relations I’ve seen is Skitter and Jack Slash in the Worm web serial. They have some really interesting moments together and they both play off each other to up the stakes in their own stories
What a great video!! Thank you, this realy helped me! My current Story begins at what is the actual ending of a story: The villain is beaten and in prisoned, everything is fine and back to normal, the world turns back to his natural order. But my story begins at this, because the story will be around regreting and finding forgivness and also forgiving the cruel things a person have done. Because my villain starts to regret the things he have done. he comes to see that he was wrong and how the things he did were evil. writing this story is a big trouble for me. Because how do write a villain who regrets the things he have done? How do regret work in a story and how does people came to regret? And how people come to forgive?
Tour question about favourite hero-villain relationships left me digging through my memory for ten minutes, only to realize that I can't name a single one I liked a lot. What I understood is that most of my favourite works are more or less villain-less. All-times favourite being Egan Greg's Subjective Cosmology and Clockwork Rocket, where the characters are opposed literary by the universe itself (or rather cosmic-scale circumstances) and have to find a way to survive and adapt. Perhaps you can make a video on that type of stories in the future - ones without pronounced villains and antagonism.
New viewer so no idea if you've talked about this, but another way to make the hero villain dynamic interesting is having them start out as friends. The Doctor and the Master were best friends in their childhood and it shows through all the actors who have taken their roles that there's a level of intimacy and mercy behind their rivalry. (especially between Delgado and Pertwee who were close friends off screen)
![On Writing: how to foreshadow [Stranger Things l LotR l Harry Potter l Game of Thrones]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Zwpcdm87irA/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: how to foreshadow [Stranger Things l LotR l Harry Potter l Game of Thrones]](/img/tr.png)
![On Writing: Villains [ Zuko l Joker l Watchmen l Vikings l Game of Thrones l Javert ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/16eJZmW_cGE/mqdefault.jpg)
![Megan Thee Stallion - Roc Steady (feat. Flo Milli) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HozPPyqW0dY/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: Dark Lords! [ Sauron | White Witch | Voldemort ]](/img/1.gif)
It's now 3:17AM here, and I have my sister's wedding tomorrow, so I should sleep (or drink copious amounts of caffeine). Hope you enjoyed the video! Let me know down below: what's the rivalry between your hero and villain like? Stay nerdy! GET ON WRITING AND WORLDBUILDING VOL II (the book with ALL the discussions we've had + tons of extra depth and detail) I linktr.ee/timhickson
~ Tim
Hello Future Me
You need to get some sleep. Why not just upload at a more convenient time for yourself?
Caffeine is an addictive substance that isn't healthy for you Tim, Mishka would not agree with your excess consumption of caffeine.
Tim can you do stuff on the inheritance cycle
Hey Tim! I know you probably won't reply/recognise this, and I respect that. But if you do, could your next writing video please be on romantic relationships and how to develop them through the books in a series? I'm writing a fantasy book series called 'The Song of the Sun', and I need some tips on how to develop the relationship between 'Alex' and 'Cara' (It takes them 4 books to get together). For my hero and villain, not sure for books 1-4, but in book 6, the new villain is 'mirror': an other dimensional copy of Alex that has acted like a best friend since the end of the 4th book. He has a similar personality to Alex, if not slightly more sarcastic, but becomes extremely ruthless in the 6th book. I also have a possible idea of Mirror using void magic to turn Cara against Alex, which is the "hurting hero like no one else can" part. Your writing videos also helped me create my magic system, and I'd be happy to comment again telling you! Hope you like the ideas! Stay nerdy, bud!
Hello Future Me pray from knights run , become of how well they build the relationship between the Anna and pray and feeding there character flaws over the years of war pray becomes a big problem that needs dealing with war self reflection and the weakness of the hero knight are strong themes in this like taking or saving people becomes a self distractive drug too the main character in this I really hope you do. A review. At some point
Have you thought of doing a video called, "Help! I have an amazing world built but no plot for it!
The world cannot be amazing without a story. No matter how realistic or romanticized, creative and original; the world's greatness (in my opinion as a random comment on youtube with no professional experience) depends on how the characters explore the world through the story.
My advice is this, practice writing stories in our normal world, try to see where you can find conflict on the day-to-day basis, and then do the same with your world.
CYS Correia The problem with that theory is that milieu storytelling contradicts that. The idea of a milieu story is in the journey or the discovery of a world. Much of Tolkien's work is milieu. Yes, there is a plot occurring within it, but the major focus is in exploring the lore and history and depth of a newly discovered world.
Slippery Ginger Milieu story doesn't contradict this, a milieu story is simply a story where the main focus is on the world rather than the characters and story. However, this doesn't contradict what I was trying to say that the world depends on the story. For example, in Harry Potter, the things that mainly affect the story are what receive more focus. Immagine if the 3 headed dog was something used to protect precious objects in the world and it did not appear in the story. It would be something cool, but not it wouldn't make the world more engaging. By having the 3 headed the dog be an obstacle that the characters have to overcome, it makes the world more engaging through the story.
Again, this is just my opinion, I don't believe that there are rules in writing.
CYS Correia This does mean that in some ways the plot or story is simply a lens through which the world is presented. Now it is entirely necessary to have both a compelling story and an interesting world even if that world is our own or is adjacent to our's. My problem is I've created a world in which numerous great stories are possible, but I haven't found one that resonates with the themes and ideas presented in the world.
Humm... I see ur problem.
I can't help a lot without seeing the world (and even then I don't know how much I could help). But I imagine that if there are themes in your world, there are probably characters involved with them.
For example, if ur writing a sci-fi, and you have a theme of loneliness- everyone lives close to each other in a big city but don't know each other- or class division- poor get poorer- then you could pick a character that lives those experiences. Or could do a TGG a write from the perspective of a character that doesn't get involved with the story; or a GOT and write from the perspectives of several characters to fit ur theme.
I don't know, but I would like to help, if any of this is usefull then I'm glad, if not... maybe he'll make the video.
Actually I did not come up with this but each of Batman's villains is supposedly one of his strong qualities turned against him example given Joker is his own Insanity turned against him, Catwoman his own attractiveness turned against him, Penguin is his money turned against him, Etc.
Jessie Ward that is so amazing I never noticed
Leo Fernandez yeah I think it just applies to the original and some of the better Batman villains though I like poison ivy but I can't figure out what she would be in relation to Batman. Bane I assume is fighting ability, and Riddler intelligence but it kind of falls apart if you go into a lot of the newer villains.
poison ivy fights to protect plant life, or to avenge it. In this sense you could say she is batman's vigilantism turned against him
Kcech Oxzar that's a very interesting point, but just as poison ivy is not truly a plant would that go deeper then, and suggest that Bruce does not consider himself truly a human but wants to belong?
+Jessie Ward Good Theory! So I'm guessing Scarecrow is Batman/Bruce Wayne's Fear?
Moriarty and Sherlock is one of my all-time favorite rivalries. Sherlock is a self-admitting sociopath. He is very pessimistic and comes off as cold-blooded in his philosophy. He treats other people rudely and with contempt. Then he befriends John and becomes much kinder, gentler and more optimistic. He will do terrible things, but only to protect those he loves from those who would hurt them. Moriarty is a full-blown psychopath, which Sherlock recognizes fairly early in their rivalry. He does terrible things out of boredom. I think when he says Moriarty is similar to him he is doing more than stalling or unnerving him. Sherlock is admitting to himself and his rival that he could have ended up a destructive psychopath too if he never met John. Their similarities in philosophy, dress, mannerisms, habits and core personality traits (when we first meet them) leads up to this encounter, which also shows us how much Sherlock has changed.
Just realized Aang and Ozawa never actually met until the final fight.
who tf ozawa
shitnesta I think it auto correct Ozai and I never noticed.
I think it works because Ozai was meant to test Aang’s morality. And he was the character best suited to do so, which is why it’s sorta okay to have him as a one-dimensional evil overlord.
OZAWA, that better have been autocorrect
@@toxicgamer1805 It was, don't know how I didn't notice, but I don't feel like correcting it.
And this is why the OG Teen Titans Robin vs Slade is the best hero vs villain dynamic in cartoons.
AGREED!!! I really need to rewatch the show soon
Slade: “Perhaps in time, you might even come to view me as a father figure.”
Robin: “I. Have. A. Father.” 🦇 🦇 🦇
Bro that’s hentai
YES
@Balance of The hill yes. people need to stop sucking atla off.
As a working comic book writer, I sincerely thank you for making this video. PLEASE keep doing what you're doing, sir. :-)
Funny how the two greatest villains in Movie History are a thug clown and an asthmatic deadbeat dad in space.
Depending on who’s writing, the clown could be a genius talented at strategy, manipulation, chemistry, marksmanship etc.
@@rcbmmines4579 He's still also a crazy guy in clown makeup.
You forgot amputee.
But
have you watched Inglorius basterds.
Hannibal Lector and Thanos have entered the chat.
Still hoping for the video on how to kill of an antagonist.
That is definitely something I struggle with. I wanna see that.
To some extent he covered that in "On Writing Final Battles" you should check it out if you haven't yet. I know it's not exactly the same thing, the antagonist could die before the final battle or the antagonist could die without ever having a final battle, I think, but it might still help you out with killing the antagonist.
Angela Hsiao you could leave him hanging, then you can write a sequel. Get it?
@Christine Daae yes. He has a How to Kill Your Main Character video.
In a really compelling novel, who is the antagonist? What if the two adversaries have the same desire, but see one another as the one who is hindering their ultimate goal? Philosophically, they believe differently, but they want the same thing in the end. Who is the hero and who is the villain?
Your next video should be about family relationships in stories. This video was great.
Please include parents that don't die, or crappy biological mothers; the latter seems to be prevalent in real life but taboo in many narratives. I blame the Grimms.
It's been years & it appears he hasn't. I've been subscribed, waiting all this time. I've searched his channel to see if I missed it. He hasn't yet & may never do so.
The lack of a Family theme video hurts me too. It is sorely missed.
Here's a twist,
Villain: We're not so different you and I.
Hero: Well DUH!
it is at this moment we realize that the Hero is more of an anti-hero.
Hero: I thought you noticed earlier slowpoke
Villain: *SMILE*
Dude, this was just... such a good video.
I wish you were my creative writing teacher.
I have a couple "rivalries" I've formed my own works but there just feels like something is missing.
"The Romantic Adventures of the Joker and Batman"
AKA The Lego Batman Movie
KatesKatering LEGO Batman is the epilogue. Their relationship has been through a rough patch.
SamWallace Artisan true lol
and telltale lol
it's practically a dating sim 😂
I really don't understand it. Why would you choose between cookies and muffins?
Silverstarsmurf finally Somebody with taste
Because muffins are cupcakes that are in denial. That's why I side with cookies.
I enjoy playing a game with my friends: cookies, pie or cake. Quite telling!
Silverstarsmurf but what about brownies?
Good point. I'll just have both.
I subbed to this channel specifically for these writing videos and I'm personally loving it. I've been laying out the general structure and world of a fantasy story for several months now and you've helped me think of the story, magic system, and now hero/villain dynamics in ways I've never considered before. Thanks so much, and keep up with the awesome videos :)
Tkman0 Ikr! They are so awesome! :)
Yeah same here
Same, been at it for months and the hard magic system video really helped.
*BY GOLLY, MAYBE I SHOULDN'T DESTROY WORLDS?!*
TerriaHub Literally the plot for the book I want to write.
Literally the only character this question has ever worked for is Galactus. (seriously, read the Fantastic Four graphic novel "The Trial of Galactus", it's amazing)
Really cool way to do this would be a character that’s grown up brainwashed to be the baddie they are but once they’re on their own they start to think for themselves and have to find redemption not just for aproval of others but to live with their own actions, it could really dig into intergenerational trauma, independance and critical thinking vs family and social norms/ traditions, and the resulting loneliness this character would feel as they realize the ways of their family that they can’t go back to while being also hated by others for where they come from and behaviors they’re still working on undoing
Tim stated that his "necessary opponent would steal Mishka away from him...or die trying". Can't you all see the truth? He's referencing spyro, the dark lord. It's yet another one of his sneaky hints dropped into his videos to warn us about Spyro's underlying ambitions. We, the Subfuries, must stop the foul beast before he takes our beloved leader away from us(and Tim's pants). We need as much support as possible.
All Hail Mishka!
If you are wondering what on earth im on about, watch Tims previous videos and hunt my comments like wolves hunt their prey; then, and only then, will you see Spyros true motivations...
anyway...
All i could think of throughout the episode was RTTE😂 "When the hero doesn't know who the villain is until this moment" all i think of is RTTE...like how Hiccup doesn't know who Drago Bludvist is but we know whats coming. Good ol' dramatic irony. "Strong similarities to make them stand out", Vigo and Hiccup were both cunning and used intelligence in their war against each other, they both had pride and liked to play fair which is what ended up in vigo joining Hiccup.
I thought Drago was also a strong foil for Hiccup. Both have suffered great loss and injury because of dragons, and yet their viewpoints are vastly different, Each is also what the other could have been--light and dark reflections of the same base character and their relationship with dragons.
PhoenyxRysing That's true however drago didn't share the same relationship with hiccup as vigo did, you could say that vigo and hiccup depended on each other whereas Drago's threat was very quickly dealt with so they didn't develop that bond, Drago just saw Hiccup as another object getting in his way.
+wolf forces I've heard Drago's the main antagonist for the third one, so I guess we'll have to see how that plays out. I'm also a bit behind on Race to the Edge, so I've yet to see how everything concludes.
I live for your perfect uses of the Epic Sax Guy
I've written a story in which the villain is the hero's author, subjecting the character through a variety of trials to allow for a story to unfold. The idea was to create a villain limited not by the scope of his power, but rather just his motivation. It also allowed for a high degree of freedom in the development of the story.
Srin for some reason I'm imagining a narrator type situation where the narrator says and suddenly there was a pack of wolves in front of him. Then the character breaks the fourth wall to talk to the narrator xD
Sounds interesting. Reminds me partly of Mr Glass' motivation in Unbreakable.
Very interesting. It reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's 'Breakfast of Champions" where one of the main characters, Kilgore Trout, discovers he's a fictional character and meets his creator, Kurt Vonnegut HIMSELF.
It's kind of like my d&d campaign oddly enough, where it's been mentioned that everything in that universe except for the PCs (Player Characters) are controlled by Fate, and are mentioned as 'outside of Fate' and that's why they're the main characters. With 'Fate' loosely being implied as the DM (Dungeon Master) or myself. Ultimately the final boss will be me, as they realize that all the pain and suffering of the world is my fault and they will fight to replace me as the god of Fate and become the DM themselves, as the world cannot exist without one.
Since we're referencing whatever the idea reminds us of, I'll recommend the animation "Princess Tutu", which takes place in a town trapped inside the story of a dead author, but the dead author is still trying to write an epic tragedy around our heroes.
So I discovered this channel at about five this morning starting with his three part series on writing and, i've already watched so many videos. It's gotten to a point where i literally have a journal out on my desk writing and taking notes about the things hes teaching me in this video to help me make the world i've dreamed of since i was 13 (i'm now 18). Fleshing out things i could never figure out before, giving characters motivations I never thought of before and really helping me create this world i've always wanted to. So thank you for being the channel you are; I know its a little fast to say, but it really has helped and i've already subscribed. Side note, i hope this post isn't too cringy or poorly written to make my thanks seem worthless in anyway, this has swiftly within hours become one of my favorite RUclips channels and I hope it grows.
These comments mean the world to me
Perhaps you could do a video on secondary characters and their relationship to both the antagonist and protagonist as well as their relationship with each other.
What if:
The villain a selfless and compassionate person whose actions will put lives at risk.
The hero is a cruel selfish person who wants to stop the villain to further their agenda.
Through the conflict, the hero's selfishness leads to many unnecessary deaths. The hero fails to thwart the villain's plan because of their selfishness. Hero has a crisis of conscience after the villain gives the hero a reality check.
Turns out the hero always saw themselves as a morally decent person, but lacked compassion, selflessness and empathy.
The villain always believed that their dogmatic approach to morality would always achieve the best results, but was too naive to realise how harmful they truly were. The hero gives the villain a reality check regarding how flawed their dogmatic beliefs are.
The villain learns how to be less naive and the hero learns how to be a better person.
The two realise that they could learn a lot from each other, and team up to face up against a larger threat. Could this be a good hero/villain story?
It's certainly an intriguing concept. You could really have something here if it was well written out.
I feel like I've seen novels featuring this sort of role reversal, but for the life of me cannot remember where...
You would have to be careful not to make either character too irredemable, and if they both are getting people killed they might be
If protagonist is a selfish asshole who does more harm than good, he’s a villain. If the antagonist is an altruistic good guy who tries to do the right thing, he’s the hero.
With minor differences you've essentially described the character Dynamics in code Geass
I think it more less depends on the writing skill of the person trying to do it. I totally have no plans to actually try and steal this alter it slightly and use this in my own writing. No plans at all.
Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "The Asylum is destroyed."
Dalek: "Incoming teleport from Asylum planet. We are under attack!"
Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Prepare to defend! Defend! Defend!"
Dalek Prime Minister: "Explain, Dalek Supreme!"
The Doctor: [from off-screen] You know, you guys should really have seen this coming. Thing about me and teleports, I've got a really good aim. Pin-point accurate, in fact. Or, to put it another way..." [he sticks his head out the TARDIS door] "Suckers!"
Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Identify yourself!"
Dalek: "Identify!"
Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Identify!"
The Doctor: "Well, it's me! You know me, the Doctor! The Oncoming Storm, the Predator--"
Darla: "Titles are not meaningful in this context. Doctor who?"
Dalek Prime Minister: "Doctor who?"
Supreme Paradigm Dalek: "Doctor who?!"
The Doctor: "Oh, Oswin. Oh, you did it to them all." [grins] "You beauty!"
Daleks: "DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?! DOCTOR WHO?!"
The Doctor: "Fellas, you're never gonna stop asking!"
11:20 There is no such a thing as loving literary symmetry "too much".
I think Liz and Patty Thompson would have to disagree.
Thought provoking video as always. I think my favorite part of the hero villain relationship is the question of significance. Often times the hero and villain are the most significant characters in one another's lives.
I think a good topic for this series would be redemption arcs.
Yes!!!!!!
LOVE IT! these story/plot building videos are great! They help remind me what I could be doing better and what I shouldn't do at all.
My hero:
Damien, a shepherd from a remote village chosen by the Goddess to combat the rising tide of Darkness in the land.
His necessary opponent: (in Book 1)
Eura, a fallen angel who has turned against the Goddess' teachings.
Why Eura is uniquely suited to challenge Damien:
Eura has consciously given up the power of Light and Healing because of the Goddess' rule forbidding that the angels interfere in the affairs of mortals. She still thinks what she is doing is in the best interests of the people of the world, but her solution to the problem of suffering is to conquer the world, to rule it with an iron fist, since humans obviously can't be trusted to rule themselves.
Damien, on the other hand, is young and idealistic, and fully believes that if he follows the Goddess then everything will turn out okay. (He's the Chosen One, after all.) So when he's confronted with his own folly (that bad things happen and the Goddess doesn't do anything about it), he is shaken to his core. Damien believes that Eura is evil, through and through, but Eura still thinks that she is the true hero of the story and Damien is a fool.
Alright. Sounds like pretty straightforward Authority Vs. Rebellion, speaking thematically.
Some questions to consider:
1. Even someone sheltered and naive would probably put together that if the Goddess could stop every bad thing from happening, they would resolve the entire plot themselves and wouldn't need a Chosen One. Why, then, would it be shocking for Damien to discover that?
2. Why doesn't the Goddess interfere in the affairs of mortals, aside from clearly some level of religious authority? Is she physically unable to, or unwilling? Why would she be unwilling? The answer to this question will answer why Damien would be morally opposed to Eura as opposed to joining forces, aside from blind religious dogmatism.
3. Couldn't Eura also be considered sheltered and naive? Does she understand how human societies or human cultures work? Does she know how to establish and maintain a large empire; economics, politics, religion, etc., or is she behaving childishly and having trouble because no matter how much control she exerts, people just don't work how she expects them to?
4. Consider the dramatic irony between these two. Damien willingly submits to a higher Authority and obeys the Goddess, yet his obedience to the Goddess requires rebelling against the establishment of Eura's Authority, while Eura rebels against the Goddess' authority, while expecting humans to unquestioningly obey her own. What is it that gives someone the authority to demand obedience? Is it wisdom? Is it kindness? Is it being the creator of something?
I WANNA READ IT!!!! THIS IS SO COOL!
This does sound pretty interesting
I'm 17, currently doing world building on a story right now. I REALLY appreciate your videos on writing, as I'm having a lot of trouble with making my story great.
Dewayne Grant you are young. what seems "great" now might seem like shit in the near future, especially when looking at your own work.
you are on the right path, more so than I was at your age, but don't fall into the trap I did of getting rid of work you feel didn't live up to your expectation.
Dan Harmon had an interesting take on this. if you fear being a shitty writer, prove your fears right. if you start to feel like your story is shlock, write fun shlock.
Writing is the most important part of writing (duh), as long as you are writing, you are improving. don't ever expect to make a masterpiece, expect to make shit and you may be surprised by the results.
If you look back on your story and it looks terrible, that means you have improved as a writer.
Yeah but I feel as if I need someone to read it, as I don't see anything to heavily criticize.
Dewayne Grant I recommend you check out overly sarcastic Productions, especially her tropes talk series.
One thing I loved about Legend of Korra is that each villain challenged an aspect of the thing she cherishes most as part of her identity: being the Avatar.
Book 1, Korra believes she is a half-baked Avatar because of her stalled mastery over the four elements, and Amon can literally take those powers away, rendering her powerless.
Book 2, Korra is confronted with her spiritual failings as the Avatar and her relationship between her family and her nation, and Unalaq creates a rift between both and proves to be her superior in spiritual understanding, eventually becoming a Dark Avatar to replace her (though this was done really shitty).
Book 3, Korra heralds an era of spiritual and cultural change that coincides with the rebirth of the Airbenders, and Zaheer and his Red Lotus arrive to break down the governments she's been butting heads with bureaucratically, while also murdering her in the Avatar State to remove the Avatar as an obstacle forever, threatening the new Air Nation in the process.
And last, Book 4 gives us a Korra who is trapped in a PTSD cycle who abandons her duties as the Avatar to recover from her trauma, while Kuvira rises to power and claims that the new world doesn't even need an Avatar, and her defeat of Korra in their duel outside Zaofu threatens Korra's relevancy and influence; she doesn't have to de-power Korra, replace Korra, or eliminate Korra's role as previous villains tried to do, she just has to show the world that Korra isn't needed.
I always go back and pause the videos whenever you put something on screen for a quarter second...... I am never disappointed.
Do you ever hold Mishka up like Rafiki held up Simba?
I'm so glad to see that someone else properly recognizes the deliciousness of muffins!
Oh yeah, and I enjoyed your insight into character relationships. But priorities must be kept!
I was noticed!
An anime called Psycho-pass also has these elements. Does a good job
Lemme start by saying you have exponentially changed how I write and made me massively better since I started watching you about a year or two ago you’re amazing and thank you so much man
This helped me with writing my villain - thank you so much!
before, I hadn't really planned out much interaction between the main character and the antagonist, but now i realise how important their interaction is.
Thanks for mentioning Artemis Fowl, those books got me into reading.
Like how Green Goblin is a foil for Peter Parker like what he could’ve been if he chose to abuse his power instead of using it for service
I absolutely love this On Writing series, and I can't wait to see more of it. You have some really excellent insight into this idea. These videos are why I'm subscribed, damn, so great :P
Thank you! I'll try to keep up the standard.
~ Tim
Your point at the end of the video really reminds me of the Big Bads on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Each season, the big bad reflects the obstacle Buffy has to overcome to grow up.
Wow, great post. I want to share this with all my writer friends. I think this applies across genres.
14:20 I love how you selectively ignore season 2 of Legend of Korra when you're talking about good examples on this channel. XD
I don't blame you.
Hey Tim! Wonderful job as usual, very insightful and very helpful. I've got several of these rivalries, but I think the most interesting one is one where my protagonist serves the antagonist directly, and has to get out of it in order to save lives. Suggestion for a video: the art of the anti-hero
i saw the master in the thum nail. never seen a vid, and this one is still loading, but you got a subscriber.
I need your cat. She (?) is absolutely adorable. On another tangent entirely, that was a great, interesting video. Thank you! (ALL HAIL MISHKA!!!)
Thank you! Love how you break it down so simply. Love all the hard work you put into presentation! Crisp and to the point! Easy to remember while you write.
0:07 "...that I'm sure are hidden in the deep, dark fanfiction corners if the internet."
Not so deep, chum.
And not so fanfiction either. Seen the LEGO Batman Movie lately?
Hey Tim! I just wanted to say that you have a new subscriber and I honestly think you deserve more! Your theories usually impressed me, or else made me think of certain concepts in a way a had never thought of before - but then you made the ‘on writing’ videos and they are honestly more healpful than a lot of videos made by published authors. I guess people didn’t lie when they said reading would be good practice for writing.
Anyway, I have a question (or rather a video suggestion) - what is your advice on writing a story about personal struggle? How could you write a story in which the protagonist is actually a villain (or a villain to themselves)? It would be nice to see some good axamples, as all most stories I’ve seen centred around this theme are lack-luster. Anyone else have some advice?
Please do a video about static characters vs. dynamic characters please
Ha, this is the perfect video for me right now. We have to write a story between a protagonist and their rivalry with the antagonist
Black Fire Wolf Ikr! :)
One of the most interesting hero/villain conflict I've read in comics was the Adam Warlock vs. The Magus storyline. It turns the hero is the mirror image of the villain completely on its ear. It's still available in paperback form so I won't spoil the story if you want to read it.
I've listened to this video so many times while writing my fantasy book, and I'm currently just a few days from finishing the third draft. Thank you for all the work you do, Tim!
I love your work! Not everything is applicable to me YET because I have a lot to work on for my story, but ... just ... yes! Theres so much information set in an interesting way.
Have you seen Black Panther yet? The Tachaka and Killmonger relationship basically hits every point you made and it does this well.
Griffin Walker right but it really fails on the villain part too it tries to have two main villains each taking half of the movie the tone change is so bad it hurts
Agreed. Movie would've been better if they had just sidelined Klaw or used him for another movie.
Killmonger in this movie has the set up to be a fascinating villain both on his own and as a foil for T'Challa but since half the plot is devoted to a villain other than him it weakens both the plot which ends up disjointed and him as a character because we don't get the progression between him and T'Challa that really sells us on their dynamic.
Griffin Walker not really. X-Men did it better. You see Magneto get disillusioned with humans and see why he starts going Hitler on them and trying to wipe them out. Killmonger you just hear it.
Also, Killmonger killing his gf erased any empathy. What’s the goal? Saving black people? He just killed an unarmed black person. He’s a hypocrite. He’s throwing a decade-long tantrum is what he’s doing.
Bob Pickleson Yeah, he only really works as a villian if he is supposed to be a vengeful psycopath who wants to qonquer the world. Who is just using the excuse of fighting for black people to get military support. I think thats also pretty well built up.
Except I dont think that was intentional which doesnt only make him a bad villian. But a horrible written character.
Bob Pickleson Yeah, he only really works as a villian if he is supposed to be a vengeful psycopath who wants to qonquer the world. Who is just using the excuse of fighting for black people to get military support. I think thats also pretty well built up.
Except I dont think that was intentional which doesnt only make him a bad villian. But a horrible written character.
This was actually hugely helpful to me! I've been working on a story for quite literally *years* but could never get far because, while I had sunk time into worldbuilding, characterizing my heroes, and contemplating themes, I'd fundamentally neglected a "necessary opponent" for my protags! Hopefully this will lead to new writing fervor. Thank you!
Love your videos! Really helps me decide what to do for my novel!
Damn. I'm not really sure if I can properly portray just how fascinating and informative your videos really are, so I won't bother going into detail. All I can say is "Thank You for making these videos, they're beyond amazing and have been a massive help for developing my own writing and characters." You rock, hands down.
The relationship between the Doctor and the Master is one beautiful sight to behold. Friends, rivals, enemies, The other is the only one that can fully understand each other, what they have been through, what it is like to walk throughout the universe as everything turns into dust.
This was really useful for planning my Nanowrimo story, Tim, thank you.
I looked at TDK Joker differently. Still a match for our friend in a rodent costume -I know bats aren't rodents, go with it- but because he's methodical. You don't just CD a hospital or orchestrate a hostage dilemma by truly being chaotic and random, you do it by being intelligent and meticulous. Joker arguably had Batman in the palm of his hand for most of the movie, and even got him to cross some serious ethical lines. This was his plan.
Oh Jesus, does this mean TDK is a story about the power of friendship prevailing, since the apparent difference is that Bruce had people who cared enough to speak up?
Amaranth Joker: Do I look like someone who has a plan?
Every fibre of my being: YES.
4:40 "It's a heartbreaking scene when you tear up over the lose of the villain."
[Me] "The Hidden World didn't have to make me."🤭🤭
Plenty of useful tips, reflexions, and practical ideas. Well done, Tim, thanks!
could we maybe see a essay on writing a story where the pov character isn't a "good guy"
also maybe on when the overarching opponent is the believes of your character
Death Note could be a pretty good example of doing this well
Death Note, Malus Darkblade (novels), The Shield (tv)... The protagonists are bad guys, but you still root for them.
Callum c: one example would be... a certain Scottish Play (respecting any superstitious actors or writers that might be reading this comment).
Do you mean anti-heroes, anti-villains, antagonists, or villains? Just asking cause I want to help,
What you describe for #3 is my favorite type of villain. I want to see heroes make certain choices because either they or/and the audience know what kind of person they would be if they didn't.
I'm loving these videos! They are so informative and thought provoking for a writer such as myself. You should do one on main character romantic relationships and their place within a story.
I am in the process of creating a new campaign story for a D&D and these videos are super helpful in building a cohesive world with a compelling plot. I can already tell my players are getting pretty invested in the world and this video should make my antagonist really good. Thanks for making these great videos, I look forward to more.
hey Hello Future Me, i just want to say i love these videos and they really help me with my own writing. i take notes and study them to help my own progression, and I think its helped a bit, so I want to say thank you and keep it up!
IMO in BvS, I thought the film was about exposing the illusion of conflict or power, the film tells us that they do have a conflict but actively shows us they don't. They are both broken by the ideologies they chose to embody but failed to become them and when they realised they were both broken, both human, they transcended their ideologies.Great video though. This was just what I thought.
I really love your on writing videos they help so much and eager young writers to make the best story their imagination can take them the right way.
I'm glad my instincts didn't make me write those mistakes about my protagonist and antagonist relationship.
Thanks again for the video, enjoy at your sister's wedding, and congratulations to the to-be-newly-wed couples 😄😄
Hello! Just wanted to let you know that I’m absolutely loving your channel. Every time I watch one of your videos I’m motivated to write again, and often times I walk away with new inspirations and ideas. So thank you!!
Will you be doing episodes on FMA/Brotherhood in the future? I’d love to see some deconstruction of that series! Thanks!
Happy to know I could help in some small way, and all the best with your writing! While I don't so much intend to break down *specific* stories (in the same way I did ATLA) very often, FMAB is a go-to for storytelling for me, in many respects. So you'll definitely see it referenced in the future.
~ Tim
thank you so much, your videos help me build my fictional world and characters, even though I'm not an author (I'm making a story for a series).
still, thank you so much. your writing videos are inspiring!
"We're not so different, you and I."
The example of this I love the most comes from Star Trek Nemesis. Shinzon uses that line on Picard, telling him how with a bit of a different history, he would have come out exactly like him. But later in that same scene, Picard throws that right back at him, telling Shinzon the exact same thing.
This works so well for a couple reasons. One, it is not the same tired trope of "hey we're the same!" but actually looks at the cause of their differences. If this one thing was different in your life, we'd be the same. This carries an implication that they could change; with just a proper shift in perspective or by falling to the exact same weakness, the hero would indeed be the same as the villain.
Two, the way Picard shifts it back onto Shinzon manages to work so much more powerfully than Shinzon's attempt to use it on Picard. Normally in this trope the hero doesn't sputter at the comparison. "No! I'm nothing like you! Because the reasons we are different are more important than the reasons we are the same!" But the villain who first proposed that similarity is the one who saw that similarity; they are the ones who already believe it. So when Picard turns it back on Shinzon and tell him how he could have been a different man, it hits Shizon harder, and you can actually see him pause for a moment at the thought. And the implication mentioned earlier becomes so much stronger, both to the characters and also to the audience. Shinzon could change; Shinzon could become the man he oddly admires. Perhaps in a different world where their character arc could have been more than a two hour movie, this could have been explored.
"in Eoin Colfer's Artemis Fowl" I NEARLY SPIT OUT MY DRINK YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT I'M NOT ALONE IN THIS FANDOM
god bless you for having wonderful and similar literary taste so this poor socially uncultured teen can better understand writing
Question: What's the evilest thing you've seen a bad guy do before a SUCCESSFUL switch to Team Good?
Darth Vader, everything
Literally opened a portal that nearly disintegrated the universe, directly causing a sub-major character death, the parent of a main character.
@@daphnejyothi4795 Ehh he didn’t really have a redemption arc he just died for “good”
@@pinkajou656 catra right?
@@lilymcmillan2239 ayyyyy 😉😁
Every time you post a video like this it makes me want to scrap everything I've ever written and start over with your tips in mind :P
I don't have the affection you do for that Batman story or Sherlock, but I loved your insights.
I love your vids. In a future one of these I would love it to be about how animals can be incorporated into a story, both as companions to the characters, and just a part of the books world.
PS: I really like animals
Miss Roschen I agree. I mostly read stuff like that. Wings of fire, warriors, bravelands. On the side closer to what my comment was about, I have read the httyd books, spirit animals, and Gregor the overlander. Books without animals entirely don't intresting me. Two of the saddest stories I have read and watched in movie form, nothing else comes close, are old yeller and hachico a dog's tale.
It is kinda weird, but I feel like one thing exemplifies this. All the stuff about how dogs dying in movies makes the directors "evil" but people dying doesn't matter.
All on all, animals are awesome, Espessialy in stories
Like how the inclusion of porgs into the latest Star Wars movie raised it up a level in the public eye.
I’d love to see a video considering animal components into the story as so many fantastic fantasy stories build their worlds by incorporating mysterious and interesting animals into the narrative.
Those ideas sound awesome. ^^ I love animals too!
But that'll take some research I think compared to what he's doing now, so maybe we won't get this for awhile. Hope he see's this though. I'd really appreciate these topics.
I agree, animals to me can add a sense of realism and strong worldbuilding. I especially enjoy stories that explore ethics and relationships between animal and humans. I’m currently reading the Rain Wild series (by Robin Hobb - check her out, her books are really good!) and one of the main characters - along with some side characters - is (for lack of better words) half-lizard. She is therefor denied many rights such as marriage. In the first book, (slight spoilers) the dragons are also sentient, and there is conflict where some humans don’t believe this. The story is centred (almost indirectly - it’s not boring to read) around the ethics concerning these creatures. I hope Tim makes a video on (or someone else explains) how such factors can be incorporated in an interesting manner into a story. Sorry for the long comment XD
G. Snapdragon thanks for taking so much interest in my little comment! I really have to read that series you’re talking about, it sounds amazing! It’s incredible how people can use writing and strong character building to tackle complex and relevant topics.
Death Note is the perfect example of a well done antagonist vs protagonist story with Light and L who are so similar only they could challenge the other. It's made all the more interesting by the fact that the labels of protagonist and antagonist could be applied to either character, it just depends on what the viewer thinks justice is.
Love how much detail you fit into one video! Keep it up!
Great, absolutely great. Thank you Tim, these writing videos are so cool and interesting. Congratulations on your sister's wedding :D
Damn, man! You just gave me a new idea that I only loosely touched on and could have dropped! I've been setting my story up as it being a battle between brothers; twin heirs of a powerful heritage. But, you just gave me an idea for a surprise villain. He and the hero ultimately want the same thing, and they both approach it from the viewpoint of hopelessness and disgust, but they have very different views on how to do it and how meaningful the victory can be.
I agree with this 100%. I see this all around in stuff like Deku & Shigiraki from My Hero Academia, or Gon & Meruem from Hunter x Hunter.
Actually, Gon & Meruem aren't really rivals. In fact, I'd argue that Gon isn't even the central figure in the Chimera Ant arc after Kite dies - he disappears for episodes at a time, and his conflict with Neferpitou only indirectly affects the outcome of the arc. Hell, I'm pretty sure Gon never even sees Meruem in person. So much of the Chimera Ant arc doesn't follow typical storytelling conventions that it's difficult to analyze it using conventional nomenclature.
Pablo360able fair enough.
Hisoka and Gon. Aleczandxr made a really good video about how there is a fine line between them.
True, at the same way Deku is the successor of the Peace Sign, Shigaraki is the same for the Evil Sign. They both suffer their masters fall at the same time, and All for One ssid that the worst thing All Might could do for Deku, is to not die, because, standing and his side, he's not letting him to grow, while Shigaraki, instead, becomes stronger by AFO's loss. Both characters evolve in a similar way, being Shigaraki as a dark mirror of Deku.
Feels like a rehash of Lessons from the Screenplay: The Dark Knight - Creating the Ultimate Antagonist
Another great video, thanks so much!! Keep doing what your doing!
I gotta say Harry Potter and Voldemort (sorry I shouldn’t have said that), Batman v Joker, and Aang and Zuko are the 3 best rivalries I have ever seen.
These writing advice videos are great ;) In terms of RTTE I definitely think Viggo was one of the best foils for Hiccup, and in my own fanfics I’ve got a sort of ongoing rivalry occurring between Hiccup and this villain who is kind of a cross between ‘Drago Bludvist wannabe’ and ‘Hiccup if he was more of an arrogant sod’. This video is definitely making me think more deeply about their relationship and how it affects the narrative.
I was already hooked when I saw the title but as soon as I read "Doctor" I just clicked
First you mention Chronicles of Prydain, which is a classic go read it, then you mention Artemis Fowle. Both great series.
Gods -- there are so many good insights in this.
Hiya there! I have a request that I thought might make a good pt2: a villain but with a higher level like Sauron is to Frodo Baggins or maybe something more direct like the avatar to Ozai
Honestly really good video I've come back a watched it many times to help when writing the rival to my hero.
Now the rival isn't necessarily a villain, it's more of a hero vs anti-hero situation. Both are actually actively trying to take down the real evil organization. The rival believes that the "law of nature is absolute," that "the strong will eat the weak," therefore strength is the most important thing in life, this is mainly due to the circumstances of the rival's bad upbringing which is a direct result the evil organization that he is now after. While the hero believes that those who are strong and possess power are morally obligated to protect the weak.
The problem I'm having though is actually putting these two at odds when they are both fighting a common enemy because I do want them to fight for story purposes. I plan for the hero to have ice powers and the rival to have fire powers and in the first encounter the rival actually wins. This would cause the hero to question himself and his own power but after some character development and training the hero becomes stronger than ever before and the next time they face off the hero is powerful enough to actually freeze the rival's fire (kinda like how Gray from Fairy Tail does when he fights Natsu). Then over the course of the story the rival and hero come to understand each other become close friends and allies against their common enemy.
I really stuggle trying to come up with a believable reason for these two characters to fight and be at odds despite the common enemy. The only thing I can really think of is that the rival crosses lines that makes the hero feel like he has to stop him such as getting innocent caught in the crossfire of his crusade against the evil organization and the rival not caring for the innocent because in his eyes he is strong and they are weak. But the problem comes from which lines he crosses or which lines should he cross to warrent the attention of the hero. Like how far is too far for him to still be "redeemed" and join the hero as an ally because if you don't have lines that can't be crossed then you have "talk no jutsu" from Naruto where even a villain like Obito who started a Ninja War which resulted in a lot of death and even killed Neji can be redeemed.
I think one of the greatest hero/villain relations I’ve seen is Skitter and Jack Slash in the Worm web serial. They have some really interesting moments together and they both play off each other to up the stakes in their own stories
What a great video!! Thank you, this realy helped me!
My current Story begins at what is the actual ending of a story: The villain is beaten and in prisoned, everything is fine and back to normal, the world turns back to his natural order.
But my story begins at this, because the story will be around regreting and finding forgivness and also forgiving the cruel things a person have done. Because my villain starts to regret the things he have done. he comes to see that he was wrong and how the things he did were evil.
writing this story is a big trouble for me. Because how do write a villain who regrets the things he have done? How do regret work in a story and how does people came to regret? And how people come to forgive?
I love Sherlock and Moriarty (as you can see..). I love the whole show!
Liking all your videos so that you can make more
That was an amazing good analysis. Thanks, I think it will help me a lot as a GM in Pen&Paper Roleplay.
Greetings from Germany
Tour question about favourite hero-villain relationships left me digging through my memory for ten minutes, only to realize that I can't name a single one I liked a lot. What I understood is that most of my favourite works are more or less villain-less. All-times favourite being Egan Greg's Subjective Cosmology and Clockwork Rocket, where the characters are opposed literary by the universe itself (or rather cosmic-scale circumstances) and have to find a way to survive and adapt.
Perhaps you can make a video on that type of stories in the future - ones without pronounced villains and antagonism.
Your comment on the symmetry pf the consulting detective vs the consulting criminal reminds me of the holistic detective vs the holistic assassin.
Guts vs Griffith is "I quit my job because my old boss was a dick."
New viewer so no idea if you've talked about this, but another way to make the hero villain dynamic interesting is having them start out as friends. The Doctor and the Master were best friends in their childhood and it shows through all the actors who have taken their roles that there's a level of intimacy and mercy behind their rivalry. (especially between Delgado and Pertwee who were close friends off screen)