Don't get Solar PV until you've watched this video!
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- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2024
- When considering Solar PV for your property there are lots of things to take into consideration. This episode of Artisan Electrics goes into full depth on everything you need to know about solar PV!
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EMLITE - Single Phase Meter - amzn.to/3HjWyw7
Trina Solar Panels - bit.ly/3WxIljo
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⏱️Timestamps
00:00 Solar Breakdown
00:37 Suitability
01:48 Getting Power
05:15 Data Connection & Space
11:38 Battery Storage
14:20 Equipment Lifespan
14:56 Hidden Cost
16:56 Timescale & Products
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I really really really like that your stand by your produkts and the overall cost is mentioned in the end
Thanks for such a comprehensive explanation of all the bits and pieces that make up a full blown PV and battery installation system. That guide is extremely useful!
Great video but stunned by the total price of £35k but it is Cambridge. I'm up in the North west so any North Westerners looking for a rough idea of costs, I've recently had a 6kWh peak system installed with a 5kWh Hybrid Inverter and 10kWh battery storage all installed for £13k by a local reputable PV installer. Took 3 days in total, day 1 scaffolders, day 2 roofers and panels installed, day 3 was all the electricals and it was all working by 1pm.
Cambridge costs lot of money
£35k, jesus i only paid £80k for my house haha.
An excellent video, with all the different aspects of solar PV, battery, DNO etc. explained really well.
Wish I had this video before getting solar. There were definitely a couple of surprises but I have no regrets. Love my solar system.
You forgot to mount the end cap on the cable bed . Also you have smaller on/off switches for the dc that goes nicely in the fuse box on a rail. Some of stuff looks too industrial for a 5kwh residential, but maybe your local regulations are different.
Thank you. Great insight into PV Solar and what goes on behind the scenes and needs to be thought about.
Thank you so much! Super informative and translating the common questions in to an easy to understand video. I am looking at a solar system, but on an older Victorian house with not such a simple roof line. Really useful to get some insight on the space requirements! Thanks again
10 years ago I got quoted for a 12 panel system at £8,500.....did nothing! Christmas time a promotional flyer dropped through my door for the same 4KW system £3,500 from the same company.I phoned up and ordered it, when it came to the "will will send a surveyor out" and I said "no need already done" they refused me the offer saying "no you've already been quoted"......2 weeks later I get the deal.
The roof is oblong, optimally south facing and at 20 degrees angle plus me being a dummy I wanted the "nice looking" black Hitachi panels never thinking they are on the rear of the property and no one sees them. BUT by pure fluke those same panels are about 5% more efficient and last longer, so I paid about £600 extra for the better panels.
2015 I get a Tesla and realise thats my battery storage, I follow that up with a Zero electric motorbike. As I only have one arse when Im out in the car the bike charges and when Im in the car the bike charges! The payback on these panels was about 4 years but the payback for getting rid of petrol costs thats staggering. The car gets about 25 miles a day at 5Amp and the bike about 80 miles which is plenty for me, if i go distance I go in the car and use my Teslas FREE supercharging (pre 2016 Teslas got free for life Supercharging) and if I use the bike I dont go distance as the public infrastructure is so abysmal I dont want the stress.
I must be one of the few Muppets who ever installed a solar system not knowing the electricity companies pay you back! My first years £950 was a total surprise and pays for drinks down the pub......whats not to like!
Class video. Great clear information thank you.
Great video as usual guys.
Excellent video, very helpful
A very interesting video. We can get probably 6 panels on the main (south facing) front roof pitch. Ideally then we could put a further 8 panels at the top of our garden.
For us, we want solar in the future so we can install some Libbi batteries and charge our electric boiler up overnight from these batteries.
great video, very informative - thanks
Thanks for watching
Good video, thanks 👍
Hi Jordan, commenting from Canada! In a futur video, youcould talk about regular maintenance and associated costs. I am thinking about PV panel cleaning and possibly snow and ice removal.
Keep up the good work!
In the UK we get proper snow maybe for a week or so in winter. My SolarEdge system has been on the roof for 4 years. I occasionally point a hose at it in spring to give it a token spritz, but not seeing any degradation in performance. When it does settle, snow melts off it fairly quickly, partially due to a not-brilliantly-insulated roof!
I'm an energy advisor in Canada. Don't bother cleaning the panels. Cleaning panels carries the risk of scratching which will lower your efficiency in the future, as well as you're busting your ass for a few dollars a month of extra power generation. Anyone in the country makes more money working min wage or even collecting bottles than you would generate extra in getting the snow off your panels. Your kWhs will come in the summer. Join a solar club to sell your kWh for a premium in summer, then buy them back in winter for a discount and run a heat pump. Cheapest option in most of the country.
This video has been really interesting. I'm in a similar position to this property in that there is lots of scope for me adding more solar (ground mounted in a field), the garage supply is inadequate and only single phase, where the rest of the property and our wind turbine are all three phase. I'm tempted to install a duct from the house to the garage and run new cabling for 3 phase and data to the garage. Any recommendations on how to do the ducting? Twinwall? How do you keep it from getting moisture in? Should it be fireproofed?
i know your panels/ installation is absolutely awesome - but what a wall !!
Good video keep up the good work
Thanks. Lots of good basic information. I think you’ve convinced my that my roof is not suitable for solar panels as the South facing part is an awkward shape and could not support enough panels. £35K saved 😊
32 is way larger than most houses in the UK. you also don’t need a south facing roof - E/W can work well too. Heck I’m about to put some on the north roof as we only have a small roof (about 10 panels south but they were old 250w panels and I can’t replace them yet due to FIT)
Thank you Jordan, that looks like a fantastic installation by artisan.
Great work, well done. 👍👍👍
Thanks 👍
If you're fitting an extra wifi point in a garage or outbuilding and have the ethernet hard wiring have a look at mesh wifi setup. I use a TP-link DECO system where each point has two ethernet ports. They replace the existing indoor router. Being a mesh system the SSID (wifi name) is the same on all points
Though I decided to do exactly that for a Drayton Wiser controller. It has the advantage of forcing 2.5 Mhertz. We had problems linking to the new main router name, we changed ISP about the same time. It's possible to change the name of the mesh repeater to the old name.
I have a Synology mesh network in our house but the garage just has a simple powerline fed access point because it is a metal structure and effectively isolates radio signals from coming in or going out. Therefore you can just use a simple access point set up with the same SSID and password and it'll work just fine. Or you can use a different SSID and password and your phone or other devices will choose the strongest signal. Mesh networks are really intended to work inside a continuous structure with overlapping zones of wi-fi coverage which may or may not be the case depending on the structure of your garage and distance from the house.
Jordan what make is your work coat please and are they warm cheers terry great video by the way
Artisan Electrics are amazing sparkies (Australian slang for electricians) and go above and beyond for quality and bells and whistles. Nevertheless the average Australian install price is significantly cheaper due to our STC rebate and the fact that integrated DC isolators within the inverter is now pretty much the standard, and the DC strings no longer require DC isolators on the roof (only a labelled designated accessible MC4 disconnection point on each string. I'm an accredited solar installer in Australia and I just installed a 7.5kw upgrade to my existing system (no battery). I used a new Goodwe 10kW MS series inverter with 3x MPPTs, existing 2kw string of panels on the North West roof, a new string of 3.5kw (7x 500W Longi panels) on the North East Roof, and a new string of 4kw (8x 500W Longi) panels on the Deck roof. I did the install myself no assistance over 3 days. The panels are 34kg (74 pounds) each so very heavy and I really struggled to lift and fit them solo (my plan for help fell through). Generally solar installers here (Australia) use roof harnesses as scaffolding is too expensive. I won't lie and say harness are better as I hate them but the industry is so competitive it's hard to justify scaffolding. I fitted my inverter next to the switchboard which is outside but luckily next to the driveway (no garage). I think after I get the $3.5k AUD STCs rebate back I'll be about $5k (AUD) out of pocket for a 7.5kw grid connect only system. It is (because of existing 2kw of panels) a total of 10kw of panels and 10kw inverter. There's so much competition and a large government rebate here making our solar so much cheaper...
I'm about to also install an EV charger and planning on ordering a BYD Atto 3 which I hope to get on a novated lease.
Sparky is standard slang for electrician in the U.K. too
@@cedard5388 if anything they copied us.
Nice install. But what if I don’t have or want internet connected to my inverter and share my data to some cloud. Can it work just as a stand alone system and let my smart meter decide the rest and an app I can use my phone with to check the system health.
An option for limited space is micro-inverters. I have an Enphase system, one inverter per panel on the garage roof. All that was required inside the garage was an upgraded consumer unit, an isolation switch and the gateway unit for system monitoring. Te gateway is approx A4 sized so footprint inside the garage is very small. One downside of the Enphase system is adding battery storage. It's need to be AC coupled either using Enphase's own system or other makes. I went for a Solis AC coupled inverter and PylonTech batteries. Usefully for me, the storage doesn't need to be anywhere near the solar panels. This is wired into the main consumer unit in the house, which provides a better temperature range for the batteries. ( The garage is detached and unheated. )
Indeed. My situation is exactly like yours and micro inverters are the only practical solution. Many of these solar installations are now overpriced, padded out and become an electrical contractors dream. Enphase does away with most of that excess
@@wajopek2679 100% agree on the overpriced and padded out conclusion. I went the DIY route, designed and installed the PV / battery storage. I had a electrician friend commission the system to keep things legal.
Also use enphase they dont tie in with battery good but enphase is the only solution i think for shading as every panel is independant. Considering a new install on my new place about 8kw split on two roof east and west just because i know how good enphase is. battery i may use samsung sdi
Enphase are always the way to go. Great systems and with the warranty they’re the best option 👍
@@DaleMarriott1337 SolarEdge optimizers also work with shading - problem I have with Enphase is a) it's not used often in the UK, so fewer installers will know it, b) if you're using battery storage you're tanking your efficiency with 3 AC/DC conversions in total (one at the microinverter, back again to DC for the battery, and finally back to AC when using stored energy) and c) depending on the combined output of your array + battery might make getting DNO signoff a hassle.
We have 7 older panels, about 1.4 kW. We do fine because ours was fitted when FIT was more beneficial. Paid for itself now so free power.
Great video. Really informative.
I have been looking at solar and battery storage, but have been scared off by so many cowboys out there, none mention structural surveys, all appear too just want to install what they have in stock, and prices are wildly different from one company to the next. They seem to have it down as a single days work on my property, as well. That is for both panels on sides of my roof, and including a car charger.
I have now decided to wait until the heat has gone out of the market, and prices stabilise before looking again.
If you were local, I would request a quote from you, but in honesty, you are a bit too far away.
Looks like a nice, well thought out install. Not cheap, but what is these days? The big question is how long will it take to recoup the cost (and what alternatives will come out in that time). Cheaper solar tiles is what I'd like, that or solar paint!
Another option depending on where you live is a domestic wind turbine, or if possible a combination of both.
Great video
1.62kwp panels 3kwh batterys BMS charge controller and CT cost me just short of 2k and it took 10 days to get a g98 of enwl self install. If you know how to wire 1 up that is.. DC lockable isolator, AC 10a MCB, 20a rcbo and a 20a MCB in the consumer unit as I plan on piggy backing another 1.5kwp inverter for higher loads daytime. Much cheaper than any quote I got which was 8k for a similar system 2.4kwh batterys. Granted I'm not using a roof tho so saved alot there on install.
I had a 6Kw system installed with 20 panels, an inverter and matched set of batteries. Three day fixing with two people. Total cost £9,000. You would never get payback with 30 to £50,000. WOW...At least for an ordinary house. That has been the best £9,000 I have ever spent. Zappi fitted for a smidge over £1,000. So 10K the lot. Ev on order as well. Happy days.
How long ago and where abouts please? If they're only 300w panels I'm assuming not that recently.
Thanks you answered a question for me , i have a Tesla Powerwall and i was thinking of getting another one fitted and some guy who was trying to sell me one said he needed to see a letter to me fron the DNO , i said the company that installed it had done all that for me and he kept trying to tell me it had to be to me personally there for i had no permission to to have my system. i had to block him from emails to stop him contacting me and block him from social media and his phone .
I'm interested to know your thoughts on in-roof solar, I'm planning both a rewire and a re-roof later this year. Also, do inverters in lofts have a tendancy to struggle when it's warm, or was that just invented by a guy who didn't want to lift an inverter up through a loft hatch, etc
Have it somewhere with adequate ventilation and easy to access for maintenance purposes. Also, as you've seen in the video, you need a lot of space. A garage would be nice because you can put an EV charger nearby
All interesting, I'd love solar to try and been "greener", but with a small roof only good for about 4 panels it's £11k ish via EoN
Maybe add in the section everything needed for future proofing PV system and min. Required by approval body.
Does the G99 approval only for domestic systems or would you still need it for commercial/schools etc aswell?
Hi great video about solar panels I think your channel is very funny and you get very good advice for the general public Ali Walsall west midlands
Thanks for watching!
2 weeks to do an install... I had an 18 panel Solaredge system put in in a day. Team of 5.
Yes I thought the install time is pretty nuts when they threw a load of guys at it.
Yeah, normally solar setups are done in a day or two, never heard of one taking 2 weeks.
Maybe that was to inflate the price because after doing a lot of research, it's a lot cheaper to buy a lot of parts yourself, do the bits that you can and get someone in to do the bits you don't feel comfortable doing yourself, it tends to cost a lot less if you do your research.
I highly recommend people do their research on the parts needed and compare the overall cost of buying the parts yourself compared to what these companies charge you because I've seen it my self, a system that cost around £7000, these companies charge you £24000 lol and I know it's not that simply but are these companies honestly saying the installation cost is £17000?
Even with batteries, if you look around, there are some pretty good deals that does cost the earth, but it seems to be rare that these companies offer them, they seem to inflate the price a lot because they know most consumers don't know how to research this stuff.
@@paul1979uk2000 yeah I have been looking in to it all for ages and will pull the trigger soon. My brother got a 20kw system installed, MCS certified etc for £20k which is the best price per watt that I have heard.
I have priced 15Kw of panels, Canadian solar or Longi and an inverter for £6-7k
Obvs roof fittings and a bit of cable and some isolators etc are needed. A few days hire on scaffolding. Should total £8-9k DIY installed. No need to bother exporting at that price difference, though it sounds like its probably possible to export too even without MCS
I had Solar fitted 12 years ago so still have a very good tariff panels paid for itself after 10 years which was 2 years earlier than quoted on install. Annual income from panels is approximately £1300 per annum 3KW system.
My small solar 2.25kWh installed 11 years since and paid for itself in 6 years and earning £1k per year via FIT. It is still generating about the same annually (about 1700kWh) as it did in 2012 when I had expected a slight reduction due to wear and tear! I wish I had had more panels fitted.
@@coord47Are your panels rated at 2.25kWh or 2.25kW ?
@@deang5622 2.25kW
Agree with everything apart from the export rate are circa 30p/kWh. Then cheap overnight electricity can power the house overnight. See
That is one busy meter box!
A total: 25k Materials, 6K Labour, 30% Profit and VAT. For a 10kW system. Probably Optmizers are not required. But better to use reliable products rather that snagging calls. Nice Setup and Great selection of Products. Thanks for Sharing
Is there any reason you recommend Trina solar panels over other brands ?
0:38 Artisan angled solar panels cleaning TM, now available as a new service! *
* (available only for solar panels, which are tilted in the correct angle to the roof, conditions may apply!)
😂
Good morning, my name is Dennis Smith really enjoyed your video and it was very helpful. I live in the Leicester area which is possibly outside your parameters of install. Could you recommend a good company to go to many thanks in appreciation of your response
Hope there's a lightning and surge protector on the ends of those Cat 6 cables that run outside.
I hate ducts that are not sealed - pointing upwards, completely open - they soon fill up with rain water and gunk, leaving the cables permanently submerged. They also encourage rodents to use them as runs, potentially leading to cables being chewed through and then rusting through the SWA (since the duct is full of water). Always seal ducts!
I here you on that one but a rodent would have to climb up the wall to get in but if you lived at the White House you wouldn’t keep the rodents out
@@brucenicoll4373 Only a foot up the wall - a rat or mouse will easily scale the corrugated duct. Don't underestimate the little buggers, I've seen them eat through the rubber caps for drain pipes and then use the drainage network to gain access to every house on a whole estate....and if head fits - then all fits, no matter how big the body.
@@blower1 you be right with a foot up the wall capping off is the best way. The issues we have in New Zealand with older fuse boxes is rats getting behind them this can be over years it’s when you open the back mounting panel then hell break loose with no insulation on the incoming all you can do is stand back and hope the pole fuse goes out fast
One of the best videos you have ever put out and I have been viewing from the beginning! 👏
Would love to dive into the figures a little more, £35k is a hell of a price
I guess commensurate to the value of the property and it’s precious electric bill it’s a drop in ocean
At 35p/kWh and assume that 12.8 kWp generates 11,000 kWh per annum then the payback would be around 9 years. But, then you have the added cost of annual maintenance and the replacement cost of the battery after 8 to 10 years and the inverter after 12 years and the payback starts to go up. So I reckon the payback will probably be in the region of 12 to 13 years. If the unit price of electricity falls then the PB period is extended but conversely if the unit price of electricity increases then PB period falls.
This technology is for the rich who can afford it. People in poverty will lose out. There is alo the moral question that needs addressing. A lot of PV panels are manufactured in China using slave labour and the rare earth metals required for battery storage (cobalt for example) are mined using using child slave labour. These rare earth metals are not abundant, expensive to extract and damage the local environment. The poor and downtrodden are exploited for the benefit of the rich and wealthy elite.
@@johnmitchinson9577 Good points. I was looking for a parts vs labour breakdown (if you have insight into that), as I have sized a somewhat similar system using the EasyPV online calculator and my parts came to about 6k, assuming a difference in parts i'll double the cost, which still leaves the question......where is £22k going?
@@johnmitchinson9577 it is very possible to borrow the money to pay for the initial instal and the savings over 30 plus years will pay for the repayments. Nothing elite or having to be wealthy about it, it’s a long term investment.
@@sygad1 Where is 22k going? Really? I suppose you would buy all the cheapest parts available, then expect them to simply magic their own complete quality install, maintain themselves 100% and voila, free electric? You don't have a clue mate. Cheap won't work or be dangerous. Quality costs money, the end.
Exemplary video! Thanks
Are you ok scrapping the solar panel surface with that hard bristle brush?
This is a very nice install.
What is the estimated time for return on invest on average in Great Britain?
In Germany we estimate 10-12 years for a system with ~9.x kW.
I was suprised to see many smaller systems (~3.x kW) equipped with battery storage.
Will this ever pay for the cost of components, installation and service?
Regards
Battery storage is essential for any solar system
Outrageous cost
Did you calculate the ROI for the customer, if so what was it please?
I've never seen the point in solar panals probably takes 10 years before you get a return on your money after spending 10k. You'd make more money if you put that 10k in a stocks shares ISA. And if its a question of ethical energy you'd still be better off using the dividens from your ISA to pay a green energy company to provide your energy such as ecotricity for a small premium.
Also one of the things to think of is not only the shape of your roof but also the position of the roof with regards to sunrise and sunset. If your panels are east or west facing theyre going to catch nearly 50% less sun. Than a roof ideally positioned facing south.
Selling to DSO or say grid operator benefits them more than single consumer. So it is kind of contributing to the society which is also good.
Hi. As of February there is only a saving of 2p between off peak (economy) as it goes up by 7.6% so battery storage is another expense to take into account plus car charging is not going to be cheap from off peak as of February
£35.000 to only save 2p on a kWh…… set aside the £35.000 in bank for bills over the years make more than 2p in interest
Great video but perhaps you should have touched on making sure your installer is MCS registered, especially if you intend to sell excess power to the grid. Suppliers won’t pay for export unless the system is MCS registered.
And yes, I got caught out and found out after the install that the supplier was not MCS registered and had ‘neglected’ to apply for DNO approval too - for a 5kw system. Cost me a bit to get the omissions fixed.
Ah, The perils of naivety.😢 Wish this video had been available before I embarked on a PV system install!
Can also be Flexi-orb
Thanks Jordan for another interesting video. RS485 is effectively the communications hardware / 2 wire cabling and is very resilient to interference and can run over very low distances well beyond ethernet. MODBUS is the protocol used for communications. RS232 is a serial protocol used on computers and still on heaps of industrial. Another example is CANBUS used in vehicles and so on. Do you ever fit ethernet (internet) surge protection where buildings are separated? I realise the CPC runs between them but I wonder about earth potential differences and in storms. Cheers
Canbus is from computers. Was started to be used in cars after the US mandated the use of OBD2 on all vehicles and the EU manufacturers improved it by adding canbus to monitor systems, lights, etc.
@@iHelpSolveItNo it wasn't developed for computers.
It was developed specifically for cars by Bosch.
"In February of 1986, Robert Bosch GmbH introduced the Controller Area Network (CAN) serial bus system at the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) congress."
Ouch. £35k is bonkers, although I realise there are Cambridge labour rates, groundworks, EV charger and a scaffold in there. My 7.2kW system with 9.6kWh battery storage only cost £8.5k in 2020. FTR in that time my system has generated 9 MWh with a self consumption rate greater than 90%. The battery also tops up at reduced rate over night, contributing to a saving in the mornings until the solar gets going. In all, my rough tracking says we’ve saved nearly £5k on our bills since September 2020.
How much would your system cost today? I got my 4kw system + 6.4kwh battery installed for £9,750 a week ago. Really wasn't anything more competitive than that in my area.
@@AChillBear I can't find any reasonable quotes at the moment.
I've seen a fair share of video's of yours installing Solar Edge. Why specifically are you installing Solar Edge and not something like Enphase Micro inverters? Just curious as we ourselves have Enphase and that is straight AC without a huge inverter box like other systems.
Also know someone with Enphase Micro Invertors has meant they did not need as much space as the invertors are solar panel mounted they are a little bit more pricey but seem to work well.
I was going to ask the same question. Enphase is so much simpler and less industrial looking
35k Jesus that's a big investment. With energy prices on the way down is it really worth it?
I wouldn't worry. I'm a solar installer 35k for that size is ridiculous.
So quick question. When you earth the pv panels and connect it to the surge protection do you connect the earth to the consumer earth or is it connected to its own earth spike
Separate from the consumer earth
The consumer earth is for passing back a fault current to the supply distribution transformer in the street, as that is the origin of the electricity from the secondary coil in that distribution transformer.
This earth is of no use in returning a fault current which originates from the solar panels back to the solar panels.
There is *no* electrical circuit containing the PV panels and that consumer earth.
I went ahead with EON for solar, however hearing so many scare stories about their work practices, I'm thinking about cancelling with them and going for a smaller dedicated company. Any advice is most welcome. They quoted 16 panels and a 9kw battery.
Eon quoted for me… and despite their three year 0% deal were more expensive than the other company I ended up using (with some finance from a bank)
I have 17 panels with a solaredge optimisers system and a ax couple battery of 11.6kwh capacity (Solax). I paid £11000 fully installed including all scaffolding and certification and a Wallbox Pulsar Plus car charger. I’m in Cornwall (thank god I’m not in Cambridge 😮)
@@patrioticduty7111 its not apples for apples as Eon don't use the same quality parts and I don't think I can trust their contracted installers. Hence the reason I'm looking to cancel.
ecoflow portable for a 1000
I’ve had Eon
No problem at all and equipment is GivEnergy
Yes maybe a bit dearer but next door went for a cheaper quote
No end of problems
Struts get them to rectify the terrible quality of work
Cheap isn’t always the best policy
Man in the Netherlands they install solar in a morning. And also they don't usually need scaffolding and that type of stuff
£35,000 seems a lot for that system! I paid £17,000 last year for a 7k ja solar panels, solar edge optimisers and 5k inverter system, tesla powerwall 2 (13.5 kwh), myenergi eddy and zappi. Another 5kwh of panels to match this system size would have cost me another £3k.
Have prices really gone up that much in a year?
Jordan, you mentioned that DC surge protection and DC isolator switches are required " by the regulations" (10:42). I have just had a similar SolarEdge invertor installed but I did not get the surge protection or the isolator switches. Have my installers been a bit naughty?
Pritty sure in another video he said DC isolators are not required when using optimisers - worth looking in to though
@@inh415 Thanks Matt. I also seem to recall from somewhere that the SE invertors already have DC isolation built in (the red toggle switch at the bottom left) but stand to be corrected.
Belt and braces imo - optimisers will drop to a safe 1-2V output if they ‘lose’ the inverter, which also has a small toggle on the DC input, but nevers hurts to have a BIG round isolator that says DC ISOLATOR just in case 👍
The regulations require you to install "a means of isolation", not "an isolator". A SolarEdge optimiser system provides that means of isolation (by reducing to 1V per optimiser when the inverter is not running), so you do not need to install an isolator too. Surge protection is required unless a risk assessment is performed and it is deemed unnecessary.
I appreciate the need for some simplification when calculating whether or not to install a battery, but surely that night time use measurement is only looking at a small part of the potential benefit? It would make sense if both generation and usage was constant during the day, but typically that’s a long way from reality. While generation can be fairly predictable (at least for sunny days), usage is far from that: typically, it is very “peaky”. Thus, there may be long periods of the day when generation is well ahead of consumption, and conversely, periods when it is well behind. A battery can be used to smooth this out, so the excess power can be put to good use rather than sold off cheaply to the grid. In addition, there is a secondary use of batteries that comes into its own during the winter, when the power from PVs is typically far short of that needed: purchasing electricity when it is cheap (using a night rate tariff) to use when is expensive. In fact, in some cases, batteries can pay for themselves even without any PV generation, just working off this secondary use. I know this is mentioned, but not in the context of evaluating if a battery makes financial sense. Bottom line: an analysis that just looks at night time usage of electricity is likely to underestimate significantly the benefit of having a battery.
i think jordan is a bit too fond of that broom haha
😂
We're pensioners in Spain and pay a maximum of 13.5cents, roughly 10p per kwh. On cheap rate its only 10.2 cents.
I couldn't imagine paying 30/50 per kwh.
Business idea for somebody that you can have for nothing: outside cabinets for solar gear that can go on the wall (or maybe on a concrete plinth somewhere at the corner of the garden) and neatly tuck everything away for those of us who don't have garages and really much space indoors to put it all.
I know one installer who put his inverter on a bit of unistrut concreted into the ground, inside a keter 1200l plastic shed
@@dg2908 I was thinking of something a bit more of a complete all-in-one solution than that :)
I had 3kW of solar fitted in 2014, it has now paid for itself. Admittedly that is under the old FIT scheme.
" 40 cm from the top and bottom, and 10-20 cm from the sides of an inverter to any other object" from Solaredge training.
Being an MCS Accredited installer I would always recommend using one for your installation. Can’t see anywhere that indicates that Artisan are MCS approved. Are they being subbed out by approved installer ?
Do you do London areas buddy?
No sorry South West
According to MCS, they are not registered with them. Not at present anyway.
Expect your Libbi April/May now
I've just had a conversation with a friend who has had a pv solar system installed by Eon for free (carbon offsetting, I think) and her rate for feeding into the grid is the same as the rate she pays for electricity - wow! So for her, there is no benefit to having batteries installed - what she puts into the grid during the day, she takes back when it is convenient. This is in York, by the way. Just thought I would mention it and why would'n't an energy company give you the market rate for your electricity if it is a good quality supply - no nasty harmonics etc
@Jordan: Why are inverters often undersized compared to the peak output? Of course, peak might happen not that often, but don’t you waste a lot of potential power by doing so? How much is wasted in each case if you have and if you don’t have batteries installed?
Cheers 🥂
In the Uk in late autumn, winter and early spring the number of daylight hours reduces, the sun is lower in the sky (less favourable) and the number of sunny days is far less.
By over-panneling you can add some compensation for the lower generation in winter.
In summer you will potentially "clip" or peak out at the inverter maximum... but with long days, this isn't an issue as there is generally plenty of generation.
Also in the height of summer, hot solar pannels are less efficient, thier voltage drops as thier resistance increases.
Its common practice (with modern Inverters) to over pannel... up to 125%.
@@davespages spot on 👍 I have 3.95kWp with a 3.68kW inverter (FiT limit, export limit etc), but for short periods on windy, cool and cloudy/clear days in the spring and autumn, the panels (mix of thin film and mono) will peak at 4.1kW - the inverter doesn't care as it can take short peaks over the paper-spec - in the height of summer they may only reach 3-3.5kW as the monos get progressively less productive the hotter they get as you say
Thanks a lot for those answers!!
How does the lost power relate to the extra cost of installing a more powerful inverter? I assume it doesn’t play out well, which is, why it’s done the other way, correct?
@@nusermane1076 in the uk the easiest and fastest way to get approval for solar (from your DNO... that's the grid maintenance company... not your energy supplier) is to go for g98. This is 3.6kw inverters. The application is fast track, 48 hours for me.
To have a higher power system, the DNO has to check the incoming power cable for size, check availabile capacity on the nearest transformer to you to ensure your larger system won't overload it on a sunny day.
Thesis g99 approval can take weeks or even months.
Over paneling a smaller inverter makes more sense. Especially as the panels themselves (individually) are not the most expensive element of a solar system. Adding as many panels as you can safely fit will ALWAYS make sense as you maximise your solar generation.
Even on summer if any power potential is lost... you generate so much in summer its not really missed. In the uk, we suffer with low solar generation in winter and with the 'current' (sorry couldnt resist that) energy crisis... every watt matters.
@@nusermane1076 as per Dave Jones' answer, the 'easy' option is sticking with 3.68kWp at the DNO side for export with little to no bureaucracy, the proviso being that this is the export limit, so if you have a 5kWp rated inverter but it has a G100 certified limit of 3.68kW for export then that works too as far as I'm aware (I have a 3.68kWp PV inverter and 3kWp battery inverter so in principle I can export 6.68kWp but the DNO approved it as my existing 3.68kWp system since the battery inverter has a G100 export limitation method) - coupled with a battery and home use and you could potentially scale up depending on your needs and budget - but again, it's very rare for panels to be working at absolute full power, so oversizing on those is better value than oversizing the inverter which may never handle peak power...lost power from the PV on the other hand may be annoying but marginal anyway and unless you have somewhere to dump it other than the grid - it should be more than plenty for a domestic set up and gives added Watts on the not-so-sunny days 👍 Had I not been restricted to 4kWp due to the FiT payment thresholds, I have space for 6kWp if not more of panels - the scaffolding itself was 10% of the cost so proportionally having more panels put up at the same time makes sense...
So whats the fastest you can charge your EV up at if your solar batteries are full? is it 22kWh?
Firstly we are talking power and that is measured in Watts (W) and not Watt-Hours (Wh).
So your question should be: what is the maximum you can charge the car up at, 22kW?
They Indicated they are using a Solar Edge inverter and they do single phase models up to a power rating of 6kW.
So the maximum charging power for the car is therefore 6kW if the EV charger is AC fed, which it almost certainly is.
£35k 😮.
I’m more that certain some warranty claims will be denied or the manufacturer will be ‘dissolved’
Keep it simpel get a Growatt string inverter
Why install the modbus meter so far away from the CT clamps? Isn't voltage drop a significant concern? RS485 is much more well suited for long cable runs.
Aren't the CT clamps connected via RS485 to the meter which connects via modbus to the inverter?
The video mentions sending ct clamp lines over a cat6 cable... Seems less than ideal.
@@linuxgeek247 rs485 is really quite robust and goes can go a really long way over a twisted pair, easily over 100m, and a lot further at lower baud rates IIRC.
They will be using different pairs for each CT clamp I expect.
Of course if they are passive analog CT clamps then it might not be ideal unless it's a balanced signal and designed to go over reasonable distances - though to be balanced and amplified they would need to be active anyway and may as well just be digital.
Cat 5 / 6 is great for most things that work over a twisted pair.
Understood. From the literature available though, it looks like they are simple analog ct clamps. While I could probably transmit rs485 over a pair of wet strings at a low baud rate, I doubt the same is true of analog ct clamp signals.
What happens to the system that you described, when the power goes out, or if the electricity provider needs to work on the cabling between the local substation and the property?
This is a grid-tied inverter. With the loss of AC supply to the property, the inverter will shut down.
This is for 2 reasons; one because it will no longer be able to reliably keep in sync with the grid and so may end up drifting out of phase -- exploding when the grid supply comes back and your inverter plays tug of war with every rotating generator in every power station in the country; and two because back-feeding the grid when the supply has been removed risks electrocuting anyone working on the supply in your area.
Some inverters and battery storage systems have a "backup" output which is always live (and may end up drifting away from the grid when it goes away, but most electrical devices can cope with sine wave disruptions as the grid AC comes back and isn't in phase with what the inverter was putting out a moment ago), and some inverters can operate in an "island mode" (remaining on and powering the house even when the grid goes away), but this needs extra equipment such as a transfer switch for the main house supply (to disconnect the entire property from the grid so that the inverter does not back-feed the grid) and load-shedding contactors (e.g. your 40A thermostatic electric shower will kill the inverter if you try to turn it on -- so it's best to install equipment that prevents you turning the shower on if the inverter is the only thing powering your home).
@@aaronmdjones That's the main problem I see with grid tie inverters. If the energy crisis gets problematic enough that we get to enjoy the benefits of load shedding, as has been threatened, everyone's lovely solar install will be - essentially - useless. And when you've spent upwards of £30K on equipment, you're going to be a little annoyed! Of course this way you're going to need a charger/inverter that can cope with this use case (essentially drawing on the mains supply only when required) and having high current rings drawing directly from the mains supply (or reverting back to stored hot water tanks, as those elements are usually about 2kW)
@@opless It's only been threatened by the Daily Mail, who managed to somehow get ahold of the National Grid's worst-case scenario planning documents. It's the equivalent to getting ahold of the Army's emergency flooding preparedness and deployment plans and then decreeing "Better get your snorkels; a quarter of the country is going to be underwater this spring!". They did it for the clicks; nothing more. National Grid themselves are more optimistic; they are confident that their current situation will not require any rolling blackouts /unless something goes more wrong than it already is/ (like a sudden further reduction in our ability to import gas).
@@opless I should also point out that the plans call for load shedding (in a worst case scenario) between the hours of 4-7pm on the "coldest" of days in January and February. Hardly ideal solar conditions anyway.
@@aaronmdjones hahah true, but I was thinking more about running off the "optional/future" battery. (I should have said, sorry) Though having recently stayed in South Africa loadshedding up to four 2.5hours blocks a day is surprisingly livable. Though white goods do seem to deteriorate much quicker according to the locals. 😱 It's something that bothers me quite a bit that it could happen here. I'm in a rental situation where I can't do very much to mitigate that scenario 😬
How do you clear the snow once the scaffold is struck?
6m window cleaning brush
@@eliotmansfield Like everyone has one. Where do you store it?
@@MrGeeyess they are collapsable? Normally around 2m in length collapsed!!!!
I've watched countless of your videos yet this is the first on which I have commented. This was a most excellent video. Although, I'm not sure I should trust an installer that has such a large "blood blister/bruise" on their thumb - or should I? Looks like it was earned by a nasty accident.
Are you serious?
@@richardjones3112 Relax, just referencing that I saw his thumb. It looked a little nasty. Every worker, including myself, have such badges of honor.
Solid £20,000 job. 2 days work. 4 people
: Gather the data to know how much electricity you are using after sunset
it is really important to know in order to calculate what size battery
you will need - or if a battery is indeed going to be beneficial -
so what we do is we look at the data over a year - ideally how much
electricity is being used from the time the sun goes down in the
evening to the time that the sun rises in the morning.
For example - the customer uses about 10-kilowatt hours overnight so
what we can expect is a 10-kilowatt-hour battery system that
will enable them to charge that battery during the day on excess solar
energy that is being produced and then use that solar energy that is
stored in the battery to run the house overnight and this particular
system thanks to that battery will enable the customer to get more
than 75 percent of their energy from the sun
Selling your energy to the grid is not worth it as the energy suppliers
don't give you much for it. You would only get only a few cents per
kilowatt hour for the energy that you send out to the grid - whereas
when you are buying it - you could be paying 30 40 50 cents per KW/h
- So rather than buying it - using your own generated energy as much
as you can is the best way to make use of your solar PV array.
Another thing that's great about battery storage is that in winter
when you might not be producing enough solar energy to actually charge
the battery from solar you can buy cheap electricity if you're
on a cheap night-time tariff and charge your battery up using that
cheap electricity so say you pay 10 cents per KW/h for your night-time
electricity between midnight and 4:00 am you can charge your battery
using that cheap electricity and then use it when you have peaks
in the day to run your house on cheaper electricity during the day -
" Energy Arbitrage " they call it - very very clever stuff and it's
becoming more and more popular now.
You might wonder how long will all of this stuff last.
Well the panels have a 25-year output warranty -
the SOLAR EDGE inverter that we fit has a 12-year warranty - and the
battery storage system has a 10-year warranty --
so you can have confidence at the stuff if it's installed properly by
a competent and capable electrician will last for a very long time and
we have seen that from installs that were installed 10 15 20 years ago
and they are still generating power for our customers -
There are some hidden costs to a solar installation that not a lot of
people think about --- for example --- the scaffolding that we are
standing on now to do a solar PV install safely scaffolding is very
important even in a single storey building like this --- the last
thing your installer wants is to fall off the roof and break his legs
-- so a scaffold needs to be installed - and that usually costs around
a thousand pounds or more for a large installation.
So that's something that will go into the price that you get a quote
for. Usually your installer will include that in their quote and they
will mention that -- and you need to make sure that it is included.
Another thing is structural engineer approval.
We have added a lot of weight to the roof and structural engineer needs
to do a survey to make sure that the roof structure can handle the
extra weight of the panels. These panels panels are 21 Kg each - so 32
panels by 21 kilos add about 600 kilos of weight to the roof.
Before we can book a date for the install we had to make sure that it
was signed off by a structural engineer and that they are happy that
the existing roof structure can support the extra weight.
Another thing that we need to get is approval from the distribution
Network operator - the company that owns the supply cables that supply
your house - the electricity supplier needs to be notified before a
PV system is installed - the reason for that is so your solar panels
are going to be potentially exporting energy onto their Network and
they need to know about it - so if your system is above 3.68 kilowatts
you need to get what's called {in the UK} as a G99 approval.
Your installer can do that for you - but again - it's paperwork - and
admin which costs money - and takes time - usually about 90 days
for a G99 approval.
So how long did this install take and how long does a standard install
take ? Well this one took us about a week for quite a big team -
sometimes if it's a bit more complicated an installation could take as
long as two weeks - probably a day for the scaffolding to be erected -
as well as another day for the scaffolding to be taken down when
the panel installation is complete.
Usually - the installation can take 7 to 10 days and occasionally double
that.
Considering getting solar panels ?
There are a lot of different products available.
So how do you know what is the best ?
Well we have a design recipe for what we like as the best quality
system and will leave links below where you can obtain more information
about all the products that we have installed here with this particular
install - and that we install a standard for most of our clients.
So the cost of this 12.8 kilowatt Peak system with an 8 KW inverter and
10 KW hours of battery storage and an electric vehicle charging point -
the whole cost for the installation was £35,000
Now most of our installs range from about £25,000 to £50 000 pounds
depending on the size and how complicated the installation is.
Agree with everything except the export rates. Regularly over 30p/kWh lately.
Probably cheaper overall to skip the battery and sell the excess.
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how much energy is lost because of that long cable run underground?
Sounds way on the expensive side. My brother recently had a 20kw system installed for £21,000. One 3phase inverter and one single phase inverter to utilise the as the DNO approved 15kw connected to his commercial 3phase connection and another 5KW to his domestic supply in his house (even though it runs off the same transformer)
Trade prices on Canadian solar or longi panels comes to about £7000 for 15kw of panels. Another grand or 2 for an inverter (or £3000 for a fancy victron setup) maybe a grand for all the odds and ends extra consumer units etc makes a DIY install super attractive. it seems like optimisers or micro inverters are a waste of money for most installs unless a large amount of shading is expected and in my experience having complicated electronics out in the elements, expecialy hot summer days and inaccessible for easy replacement is also a terrible idea.
Hi I use 20/25 kwh a day in my household what system would you recommend
Suggest a power monitor to reduce consumption first (unless you have a Heat Pump or EV?) - sounds like a lot for daily use otherwise...
@@Umski family of 6 and 1 wage just over £100 a week in energy bills plenty of washing and a tumble dryer that loves money lol
@@martsvan1 still ways to reduce- do you have space for a washing line? FWIW - family of 5 with baby in cloth nappies, annual electricity use is
Great British weather lol got 4 clothes lines already
@@martsvan1 hard one to encourage but reduce wash loads? No point in spending £££££ on PV without taking a look at why you use so much energy in the first place...
On Batteries, ive been researching Solar a while on now, batteries are obviously a good thing overall. but if your looking at it on a ROI point of view long medium term i don't think there a good idea, already energy companies are closing the off peak tariff margins that make batteries pay for themselves in winter and how most justify the up front cost off batteries, the more people that have an EV or batteries the more people want off peak tariffs and at what point is off peak not off peak anymore, and with export prices rising over the last year you can export at 15-20pkwh now much more than say a year ago, i think its a lot harder at this point to defiantly say batteries are a good investment. there also the chance after 10y you will need new batteries unlikely but that's the manufacture stated warranty period on most batteries, i think its a tough time to decide on battery storage as the landscape is changing re export prices, personally i would rather have more panels and export with a small battery to cover the basic overnight usage and shift major usuage to the day when you have generation.
You’re research hasn’t been very productive. The only way to get ROI is with a carefully sized battery .
@@persona250 I'm not talking about now I'm talking in 3 to 5y when your still paying it off, Working out ROI now is different to working it out based on no off peak tariffs. Just think about it, batteries work now based on low cost over night energy in winter but that tariff doesn't exist how to you charge batteries in winter . off the grid at full cost, in summer they charge themselves, however in 3-5y with the way export has risen you can just export and credit your bill to cover winter months with export. I'm not saying don't get batteries obviously they work but if you after ROI medium to long term you need to think if the upfront cost is worth the outlay with export rising and off peak tariffs reducing
@@endisforever22 yes of course they work with no off peak tariff . How are you going to maximise the use of solar generation without a battery .
@@persona250 you are not getting the point you export back to the grid at 0.20pkwh then use that to cover winter costs, like i said I'm not talking this minute i mean medium term 3-5y years down the line when you will still be paying back your ROI and off peak tarriff are a thing of the past or massively less cost effective , course they work off peak but how do you charge a battery in winter??, u have to use grid power and if there isn't off peak tariffs available your not saving any money as your buying at full price to store it so there no point, They make sense now with off peak tariffs as they are, but honestly with the uptake of EVs and solar/battery do you really think off peak will last the next 10 years i very much doubt it as off peak isnt off peak when everyones using it
@@endisforever22 you are not getting the point . The point of a battery is not to export back to the grid . Store all solar production for use later . The system still produces in the winter .
1:30 The "8+ panels required" is a SolarEdge technical peculiarity. It can't work with fewer. It's a great smart system that provides 99% efficiency by using 8x microinverters at up to 60V. 60V is what cheap reliable power-MOSFETS can do. This way you get up to 480V, which is efficiently stored in a ~480V battery, then easily chopped-up with PWM by the transformerless inverter into a 230V sinewave. Other inverters are 90-95% efficient and generate a lot of noise and heat.
That used to be the case on the older inverter/optimiser combinations - the newer ones can go down to a minimum of 6 optimisers, with a target string output of 350V DC for the inverter to hit the target 240V ACrms…
@@Umski correct! So, with SolarEdge you have to be careful about which combinations of panels/etc are possible.
@@squeaky_honda indeed but don't get your point about batteries and 480V? The optimisers are just DC-DC converters which have a useable efficient range which is where the inverter wants them to stay, so a handful trying to get a string voltage of 350V DC won't work very efficiently, whilst a minimum of 6 or 8 means each optimiser only has to push out between 40-60V as you state, though they will happily go to wider extremes, just not very efficiently - I have a string of 15 and the optimiser voltages can swing from 15-80V as they all start to come online or shading occurs...it's all down to overall design ultimately - it's why I suspect there are a 'lot' of poorly designed systems out there from the Feed In Tariff days when every man and their dog jumped on the bandwagon whacking up poorly designed string inverters and either the end customer was none-the-wiser or they have had to get someone in to fix their issues...
@@Umski 48V batteries lead to an inefficient noisy complex inverter that has to deal with a LOT of input current (e.g 200A). Meanwhile, if your input voltage is 10x higher than that, you need to deal with 10x less current for the same power. Silicon and SiC mostfets for 600V are cheap and readily-available, and you only need 4 of them (£4 each) to efficiently convert to 230V sinewave. At these high voltages of 480V, you can even simplify the design drastically. For example, a rectifier diode's 0.4V drop makes the device lose only 0.1% efficiency into heat. That means that at 8kW usage, mere 8 watts are wasted into heat, no need for a fan. The old-style inverter would be wasting 100W into heat with such a simple design.
@@squeaky_honda yes of course but it’s not batteries why the original SolarEdge inverters require a minimum of 8 optimisers - it still boils down to converting DC to AC which optimally is 350V DC to get 240V ACrms and still is the case being grid connected - having a HV battery is a bonus as the inverter doesn’t need to mess around with further DC-DC conversions and higher currents - 48V is a safe compromise for bolt-on battery storage but those that do an integrated system have those efficiency advantages as they can have a HV battery pack - and if I’m not mistaken they have a working range of 350-450V DC so still not clear where you’re getting 480V from 🤷♂️
Cant all this go in the loft space?
£35k is totally nuts. I’m assuming this is East-West?
I’m basing this of a few quotes I’ve had for my system, so this won’t be accurate….
Total guess that they use around 10,000 kWh pa. Using the same generation profile and consumption profile from my quotes I see the following:
Annual gen of around 11,000 kWh
Utilisation of around 7,000 kWh
Feed in around 4,000 kWh
Annual saving of around £2,500
Payback 14 years
I realise I’ve made a lot of assumptions (and I think I’ve been generous) but these videos need to include this stuff. It’s really important. Plus, how often are the simulations compared against the real experience? I really want to get them but I’m struggling to justify it.
One angle I don’t know much about is how much CO2 is used in production/transportation and fitting. I’d love to know more.
I do know they’re very bad re recycling. They’re essentially too complicated/expensive to recycle. Same for batteries.
I’d love it if you could include this kind of info in a follow up video.
Don't totally agree with 8 minimum panels comment as it depends on many factors. There are so many things to consider such as if your house is single, two or three story, are you South facing, how much battery storage do you have, can you have an immersion heater in a hot water tank, can you fit more than 6 panels on your roof etc. Solar is great in summer but rubbish in winter so for 4 months you will have to buy some electricity as your solar panels will not generate enough electricity.
Total cost needs to be under £1,000 for a 2kw system ….....
When you can hit that price point & brake even at 3 or 4 years everyone will have solar !
Regulation relaxation is also required for smaller systems .
Maybe drop the feed-in tariff on small systems .
Allow for a limited feed-in offset say 1 or 2 Kwh maximum per day .
Update all the smart meters for 1:1 unit cost offset ( until you've hit the daily export limit ) .
Allow small diy plug-in grid-tied kits .
I don't see everything wrong with plugs on a 2,000 W GTI or smaller .
Most diy systems will end up with 1 or 2 panels & sub 640 W output !
That price is absolutely impossible. The whole industry will collapse on that sort of price.
@@techtactics788
And that's why people living paycheck to paycheck don't have solar !
Most can't make ends meet as it is …...........
lithium batteries don’t like cold temperatures (
£20k - £50k, you’re ‘avin’ a giraffe!