I'm hybrid but about 95% of that is ITB lol. The other 5% is my mixbus chain and printing vocal stems thru my vocal chain if I know they tracked their own vocals with an interface.
Absolutely! I’ve Been Mixing Here In Atlanta For 30 Years! Came Up On SSL, Neve & Trident But My Friend Glen Schick Moving Completely In The Voice Inspired Me To Go For It Although I Have Tons Of Vintage Outboard Gear From Over The Years From API, Dbx, Focusrite, Bae, Drawmer, and Manley. But Because I’ve Used The Actual Hardware And Understand What It Should SoundLike And How It Should Be Used. I Get Great Results Now Totally ITB. Thanks For The Discussion 👌 Spent My Available Cash On Speakers And Amazing Conversion
I've been working in the music industry for 25+ years. I mix full time. Between 150 - 200 projects a year. I'm a freelancer so I'm mostly working with people who are recording at home so the tracks I get to work with are usually less than ideal. I do have a few pieces of hardware but I'm working %75 ITB and I get KILLER mixes time and time again. I know this to be true because I have a proven track record and my clients return time and time again. I also compare my work to the stuff on the charts all the time. Yes, there is a difference but I'm almost positive the difference is more from the tracks I am being provided to work with than from my skillset or tools. Getting it right at the source is BY FAR the most important thing. The tools will only take you so far and it doesn't matter if they are digital or analog at that point. That's what I've learned over all these years.
@@EdThorne For sure. Getting it right at the source is by far the most important part of a good mix. Even tho it really has nothing to do with mixing. I use the same plugins and hardware for almost every mix I work on. So I'm consistently using the same stuff to do the work. So if it was the gear that mattered, in theory, every mix should sound pretty much just as good as the last one. We all know that's not how it works tho lol. The quality of the performances matters quite a bit too. If you have good recordings performed by people who can actually play/sing well then you are off to the best start you can be. Those two things are the most important. After that, it's knowing what to do with the tracks when you get them. If I had to put a number on it, in my experience anyway, the tools you use to get the job done account for about 30% of the whole picture. I've mixed everywhere from world-famous control rooms to the train lol. I've done mixes that were 100% analog and 100% digital. I rarely find myself saying, "man if I only had (insert plugin/hardware name here) that would be all I need to knock this mix out of the park". I often find myself saying, "if these guitars were recorded better the whole mix would sound so much better"! Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for listening hahaha!
@@RealHomeRecording Hey Adam! While I do post on gear space every now and again, unfortunately I'm pretty confident I'm not the Matt you speak of lol. I'm not very active there usually. Sorry to disappoint haha!!
@@matt_nyc_audioengineer Yes it's true for mixes. The only thing that sounded true (one pro was saying...) was that in "mastering stage" (where you want that extra 5% of magic) working with some extra analog gear is much more forgiving if you make any small mistake where with digital you have to do everything almost perfect for top result. I don't even mix in computer (everything on a outside high end keyboard workstation) and I've reached progress using the same stuff over and over and I found quickly is better to work with the same tools for years getting best with it than constantly changing the plug'ins and making a big mess everytime ... :)) I use only some transformers at mastering stage and a high end preamp makes sence when recording vocals which again conforms your point that the recordings must be top notch and you are already 90% there - if you know how to mix reasonably well of course. Years ago I thought: I have a bad gear, I should work with computer, than 5 years later my mixes are 100 times better with the same tools, so it's not so much gear as knowledge and expirence. The tehnology nowdays (ITB mixing) is good enough so you can make great mixes. 20 years ago was a different story, but not today. As I said, maybe in mastering stage makes sence to add some analog stuff in the chain ...:)
The old debate hardware v digital…All the famous top end ITB mixers like Andrew Scheps receive their audio that’s been tracked through analogue….Ed mentioned this….this kills the debate. By all means use a EQ plugin to tweak a vocal tracked with a U87 and Neve preamp 1176-LA2A hardware chain….but don’t think for one minute a plugin chain will beat a quality hardware front end.
The big things for me are ergonomics, the experience, and inspiration. Being able to turn a knob vs use my mouse is significant in all 3 places. It's significantly less wear and tear on my arm (I've had 3 surgeries), it feels tangible which tends to allow me to really feel the music more intimately, and of course because of that I'm inspired to work and have fun doing so!
When I moved from outboard gear (including an analogue desk) to ITB, it took me a long time to get the same quality of results I previously achieved. This, like most things, was down to skill, knowledge of my gear and not the gear itself. A monkey with a mouse is not an audio engineer with decades of experience.
100% agree here. If your tracks have mojo in the first place you can mix from there in the box after the fact. I also believe in the tracking phase to create a vibe and I do the "live and die" by it method (at least 80% of the time) and have it all baked in (modulation, effects, good and bad noises, etc).
that is my exact game plan. since i have u gathered here may i ask, what nice slow compressor would you guys recommend for vocals ? in a dual comp setup where i already have a quick vca one ( max 8ms on attack) trying not to break the bank with a cl1b :s and also how hard u guys go on A/D converters ?? im on a adi-2 which became the weakest link in my chain but i have no reference point to know how much better it could get
@@LordBiffMusic For my 500 series rack I love my Hairball FET/500 Revision D for vocals. For my AD/DA I am using a Cranborne 500ADAT chassis so it takes care of that and then some. For an Opto type compressor I can't recommend the Audio-Scape Opto Compressor enough especially for the price you pay. Love their gear! I also have a Revive-Audio modded ART VLA II (I went with the Cinemag add on) that was very affordable and is excellent after the mod. If you are willing to make a switch and have an interface with 500 series the Cranborne 500R8 might be worth a look as it it does a lot and has A/D and Adat and summing built in. If i did things over I would of gone with that as my do it all piece.
Great video, well said! I have a hybrid setup. Doing my own shootouts analog hardware is better than plugins, but the difference is very subtle and slight. and if you record with analog gear it's practically non-existent. what matters is getting the harmonic saturation and natural warmth at some point in the signal chain. If you get it during the recording stage you won't need it later on. The issue now is that most people aren't mixing with hardware they're using on board preamps in a low end interface (looking at you focusrite 2i2) and giving it to you to mix. so putting it through hardware will make it a lot faster to mix - notice i didn't say BETTER - as your skill, room, ears, taste will always take you so far and if you have goals/vision that doesn't align with the client well then it's a bad mix. the analog gear i got is a bus compressor, distressor, api preamps (probably gonna sell), and a BAE (neve) 1028 pre/eq. Essentially I got a great signal chain to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the highest quality. granted my current space isn't a place to record any of those things well (i got all of that in my old place which was great for this stuff). In any case I think having a GREAT vocal chain these days is everything. get a top notch preamp and compressor combo (i highly recommend what i got rn) and don't skimp by buying warm audio it's not nearly as good, if you wanna save some cash get stam audio or a bunch of other brands that are slightly more money but much better quality (i've also heard a bit about quality control issues with warm). So did you (or me) waste the money? Depends on your client base and how much you value your time (assuming you save a LOT of time with analog gear). here's the important thing too: if you don't like what you have, you can easily sell it for most of your money back, and in some cases i've actually earned a few dollars upon resell. it is VERY difficult to sell plugins these days. and in some cases nearly impossible to transfer licenses. plus analog hardware rarely becomes obsolete where as plugins can sound inferior after a few years. if you have the work or spare cash and record more than mix, it may be better to buy hardware. if you are only mixing, i don't think it matters much: whichever way works best for your workflow.
I spent 30k on a analog hybrid set up. Spent 50k moving to Nashville to go to Blackbird because it's a gear addicts dream. After all that, I sold all of it because the gear is not the problem. If we could buy great recordings with gear everyone would. You still have to play your instruments and write great music which is hard. It's more important to learn proper recording and mixing techniques, but at the end of the day the gear are tools, an SM7 didn't sing Thriller for Michael Jackson, Aretha Franklin voice doesn't come with a U47. It starts at the source. You can make great recordings with a Behringer x18 and budget mics. I did one mix on the hybrid set up that I thought truly had an awesome analog sound, but other mixes in the box were better and easier to recall. Unless you have an assistant, clients these days want recalls galore for the smallest adjustments. The analog gear didn't improve my mixes at all. It was more expensive and cumbersome.
@@EdThorne I mean I don’t think there’s a wrong way. It’s just about the workflow that you want. I definitely had a lot of fun using compression on the way in with a real compressor and all that jazz and at one point I had a TG one and that was amazing on drums and I would use it in parallel on pretty much everything. It was a lot of fun I definitely don’t blame anyone for having analog gear . I just found that there was other things that I need to focus on to make a good song or a good mix
The thing I noticed about analog since my journey. The amount of headroom I have, the depth, and the sonic character from the gear. I love the hybrid approach.
I’m a tracking and mixing studio so having a console and outboard gear is very important for getting sounds how I want them. When mixing I’m itb unless someone wants to pay for analog mixing which is more because if recall. Honestly most clients don’t care how I mix it as long as it sounds good. If I was just a mix engineer I’d opt for a nice master bus chain. As you said in the video, these guys are getting top tier recordings to mix. Plus decades of experience interning with other pros. Cheers
I think gear does not really matter in the mixing realm , i always mix in the box so i can make surgical mixng decisions . To me, the room + monitors (reference) & skill are more important than the type of EQ or Compressor i use
I’m slightly hybrid and want to head the way you have gone however hearing that 30k. I think it’s time to leave it as it is, back itb😂I don’t record audio just for mixing
Thumbs up for experience before any software or hardware you use. I have been mixing for 25 years. I first started with a Mackie Digital 8 bus and an Otari Radar 24 ch. recorder. From their the owner of that studio built an enormous studio with Studer 827As, Pro Tools, Outboard gear AND an SSL 9k!!! Worked their for many years, mixed many albums in that console, although only recorded to tape once; drums, bass and guitars and bounced into Pro Tools. Then I built a hybrid studio in my house and started doing side projects in there. I would sometimes mix in my studio then go mix the same song on the console, not only did it sound better but I worked much faster. But some projects wouldn’t have the budget for the console so I had to work in my home studio. Then I went to a studio with Oxford consoles, and although they are the best faders I’ve worked on, the sound wasn’t like the SSL. Then I stopped going to this studios and worked a lot in my home studio, I kept getting better with the hybrid system, and I was working faster and the budgets for the projects kept reducing!! So there was no going back. Then I started working with a producer who had two SSL 4ks. My first mixes sucked! So it was a hit and miss thing. The problem was I was doing the same things ITB and using the console as a summing mixer, but the color was getting in my way. Although the last mixes I did on it were much better, recalls were a nightmare. And we had a lot of clients so I couldn’t afford the time wasted. Came back to my hybrid mixing and just did the best I could. One day I moved to another city and didn’t want the hassle of reconnecting everything. I was working on one project that started in the hybrid system and decided to finish it 100% ITB. The results after adjusting some levels, especially drums and bass was negligible to me and to the band. Since then I stayed ITB and didn’t look back. In my experience, having to know how to get great results is the key. If you can get them with gear, go ahead! Still the recording process does have to have at least great mics, mic-pres and a/d conversion. That is a must!
I went from full studio with Neve V72 Otari Tape machines PTs and about £70k of outboard. To a hybrid mixing system based around a neve 8816 and 8804 summing system about 10 years ago . Kept a lot of the outboard for a few years and slowly realised the recall is genuinely impossible even with neves fancy recall software . It was never the same and as I got to working on more Media composition quick recall became essential and the benefits of my outboard g series bus comp and ancient pultecs where getting smaller and smaller . Hence 11 years in from closing the studio in now entirely ITB. I’ve kept a few choice bits for tracking but essentially I’m down to one rack with 5 units init . That’s it . I could never go back to analog again now .
Analogue is awesome! However, for simplicity, space and $ sake, I've been recording completely in the box with my Apollo for half a decade and never looked back. Awesome video and content as usual Ed, thanks for all you've done for our audio community!
Analog hardware has the benefit of no latency. Which is a Really Big benefit, especially when it comes to automation. I am not aware of any daw that has perfectly addressed the issue of plugin latency compensation with automation.
It’s such a catch 22. I really do love the warm audio stuff for the quality and affordable. Running through that stuff during tracking I feel and hear the slight improvements
I stick to Audioscape and Stam (even Black Lion)- happy to own no Warm (as poor as I am lol) woukd feel like buying Behringer ( tho I’m sure Warm are better humans then behrnger ceo
since most people consume audio in mp3 format, with wireless earphones or headphones, and we record digitally these days, I couldn't care less about analogue gear. Well when I say couldn't care less. I mean although I would like the analogue gear personally, the end user isn't really going to tell, and learning is more important.
It depends on the plugin, some plugins can get close to the real analog gear and some don't. Also you are absolutely right, the skill in the end is what matters most.
Having grown up with analog and tape machines and analog hardware, I sold off almost all of my anaolg gear back in the 2000's and went ITB. After using that for 15 years I started buying analog gear again and began inserting it back into my workflow. Mostly in the tracking stage but mixing as well. Without a doubt, analog gear sounds better than plugins, but the truth is, some plugins will do things analog can't without spending many tens of thousands of dollars. A hybrid setup is the way to go. There are advantages to each platform.
No, you didn't "waste" your money. If a hybrid workflow is how you like to work then embrace it and move forward. I hear a lot of "this person mixes hit records and only uses, blah, blah, blah",....Andrew Scheps mixes on $100 headphones,....this big time mixer does this, etc, etc. As you said, if you get impeccably record raw tracks you're more than halfway there. It's one of the differences between truly pro and not.
Hybrid, I think you touch on the main driver for me it's the tangible feedback. I tweak a knob I hear the results. I often feel a disconnect with plugins and tend to lean into presets rather than play with it and find what sounds right, meanwhile understanding the why behind it
I worked in a million dollar studio back in 2000s. It had the SSL 9000 and 4000. Doesn’t get better then that. With tons of outboard gear. Back then yes you needed that gear. Today you can still use it. But I can make a really great mix just using plugins and my RME interface. Plugins have caught up finally. And now if you are using outboard gear it’s for preference not out of necessity.
plugins make amazing music but still no where near hardware plugins still lack depth and 3Dness and a polish that plugins still struggle with again not to say you cannot get good masters in the box
Great video Ed! You have awesome gear. I don't think you wasted your money, but I do think you have a few modules that do roughly the same thing or do things that plugins can do (much faster). When I buy analog gear, I always do my research and demos to make sure that there is either no plugin equivalent or the plugin equivalent is not nearly as good as the hardware. This strategy has worked very well for me. I have owned or used most of the modules you have, I can tell you that there is no plug-in that does what the RM HD456 does; so that is a smart investment though you need one more. The SSL G Bus 500 is also another module that regularly outshines the plug-in equivalent, so another smart buy. The WES Audio stuff is great but imo there are plugins that work just as well. When I had them, I found that I used the recall function much less than I expected. I had similar experience with the API EQs, they are awesome but I sold them after I used the UA version. I kept my Maags because imo they sound much more 3D than the plugins. I love the SSL EQs but again I felt that I got similar performances from UA and PA plugins. I also enjoyed the Harrison EQs but again I had the UA version which sounds very similar. I would say with analog gear; it's good to limit yourself to what you absolutely need for your workflow and nothing else. I have come to learn (the hard way) that the beginning and the end of the signal chain are very important investment as well. IF you asked me; in your case I would trim off on some modules that don't get much use and upgrade your monitoring system - perhaps something with DSP and bigger drivers than your current system (Genelecs, Geithain, PSI). No doubt you will hear a difference and that can contribute to building your skills.
Hey there. Thanks for the feedback, some great comments there. Yeh, I definitely got suckered into the GAS of 500 series - they’re like adult Pokémon cards 🤣 I’ve just rotated a few pieces out (video in the way) for those exact reasons. I agree with your assessment of most of those pieces besides the APIs. They have a depth like no plugin I’ve ever heard. And, yeh, I’ve considered upgrading my monitoring but my room is a bigger problem so I don’t think it’s worth the investment atm. I fell in love with PMCs in LA but would probably go ATC. Genelecs are good but not for me.
I do hybrid, but without using a summing box. I use my converters as inserts in Studio One and it compensates for the round trip. Studio One also lets me replace the audio engine with a API or SSL console emulation on a kernel level. I dig it.
Absolutely. Analog feels good and plugins pick up the slack where analog can’t help me (dynamic EQ, multi-band comp, side chaining etc). Best of both wins for me
I track through analog gear on the way in then I subtractive EQ, clip or compress then route to the outboard gear 1. Kick 2. Bass 3/4. drums 5/6. Keys/guitars 7/8. Vocals for compression/EQ/saturation and limiting to the A to D conversion to computer #2 for overall balance and EQ multi band compression and EFX I have a small mixing room with treatment but I still do all of my mixing decisions with headphones because it’s easier to hear my EQ moves and I play through the mains to check the low end. In the box does things better and the rack gear does things better. I don’t trust one size fits all situations
When I first started recording with a DAW I literally used it like my old tape machine. 16 in/16 out thru my old Mackie 8 buss desk. These days I do everything ITB, except for vocals going in, which I sometimes track thru my old TLA Ivory if I want some overdrive to do some screaming. Even then, Cubase's stock "Da Tube" sometimes sounds better (actually used both on my GnR covers). For the money I wanna spend and the amount of people who will listen to my songs, ITB works best for me, at my skill level.
Super interesting. I’ve just come across your videos through your review of the Jaycen Joshua seminar. I too was at that seminar, and I too have a hybrid setup albeit less than you have. I too came ash wondering if it was worth continuing and have already done a few experiments to test that theory. My conclusion… not sure! Either way I wish I had Jaycen Joshua’s ability to see what needs doing with a mix so quickly!! Cheers
@@EdThorne this is something i have come to realize with analog for tracking….. it came from using My mpc….. it sounds amazing and whenever I go into a studio everyone notices it, I believe it is because of analog forgiveness on clipping vs pure digital recording clipping. When you clip digitally its perfect so its harsh and brittle. When I record into my mpc and clip its phat with depth, and when you process through a analog board or analog gear and record into the mpc….its pristine you can tell the difference immediately.
I had the very same thought sitting a few rows behind you. When JJ’s achieving mixes like that 100% ITB then i concluded 1/2 way through the seminar I did need to spend what I have in past year on analog gear. And I was VERY glad my wife was not in the audience lol. Commercially for mixers, it does not make sense. Maybe for producers and much more for recording engineers it makes more sense. Am I gutted I spent 5x that on outboard? Not at all. I knew going in that ITB was much more efficient both practically and commercially. BUT. For experimental and educational purposes I don’t regret a penny. In fact once I buy protools and figure out the rest of JJ’s chain i’ll fill in the gaps. I already have 80% of the analog equip of his chain. And SHMC been ordered since. But my needs are different from startup/small scale mixers or large commercial mastering factories. I only have one client and I’m not on the clock. So in conclusion if I had the aim of setting up a small mix suite then I would say 25k mostly on 500s would be a waste if money. Interface, high end channel strip and rest on speakers and room correction i think would be better. But you’re 100% and the biggest takeaway from that seminar. Whatever tools are used. It is the skill of the mixer that matters. What plugin or hardware used will have little bearing on the mix if the skill is not there. So investing in those skills and the tile to learn is next stage for me. In meantime just hire in the talent. Thanks for the two vids on the seminar. Great work!
Been considering getting a neve (not a clone) 1073 DPA to re track stems and track vocals through… - because cumulatively the difference is blatant, and having that at the start of the mixing would be an easy step up. then potentially a bus compressor or something for the mix bus… but the digital bus processors like Shadow Hills A and Softubes are really good now so it’s not a necessity. The routing and all that is a head blag though I have an Apollo Twin X, and I know the converters are cleaner than the previous models. But I’m still not sure if I’d need a separate piece of gear to A>D D
Forget about "which sounds better," I ask myself "which is more enjoyable and whats the value of enjoying what I do"? Theres my equation. Hybrid setup here
what analog is good for, saturating the bass with sine waves instead of distorting with square waves in digital. Dre would slam the kicks and bass in a tape and would come out perfect.
Hey Ed. First: super interesting Video. So thanks for this. I would love to have some outboard gear for tracking. Since 3 years i am working with the Apollo X4 and its good. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make a comparison with real preamplifiers so far. but I could imagine that there are certain advantages. Thanks and greetz. Carsten ✌🏼
Watch this space for a Neve preamp comparison. Thanks for supporting the channel. Can’t go wrong with the X4, you can make some killer vocal input chains
Excellent video. In my view, the performance of plugins versus hardware is pretty much a wash ….but there is something special about reaching for a knob and tweaking a box you know like the back of your hand. I am all about the hybrid approach.
I interned in a professional studio that had some high-end outboard gear and I’ve always been absolutely obsessed with hardware emulations. I used to track through an Avalon 737 almost every day and after I left that internship I ended up buying the UAD plug-in version. It was so close it was practically a jump scare. But a few months later I bought a couple high-end 500 series modules pretty much exclusively for tracking guitar and vocals and they absolutely BLEW me away. I had some limited experience w analog gear as mentioned before but really I was mixing and producing exclusively in the box for about 15 years before that. I’m still a heavy believer that plug-ins these days are so close that the average listener up to even some advanced engineers wouldn’t be able to tell the difference but there is absolutely that extra something and I don’t think it’s worthless by any means. There’s something to be said for getting it right at the source in a way that digital can’t really accomplish to the same degree imo. So I think analog in the tracking stage (and really nailing it) really still is the way to do it and get the best results. What you do after that simply comes down to skill and knowledge of the tools. But if it makes you feel better that stuff isn’t a waste of money and the reasons extend even past the sound quality itself. When somebody walks into your studio and they see that gear they instantly gain confidence. Sometimes that means more then most people understand.
It comes down to what gets you to the result you're after. It also depends on the genre of music and the instruments your mixing. You can argue people like Andrew Scheps has mixed multi-platinum records all in the box, but also remember, how much outboard gear was all that tracked through on the way in. A lot of the mojo is baked in during the tracking stages so if you're starting with great recordings to begin with then... Getting you're sound right from the source is the key.
Analog has a nice look to it, gives one the sense of street cred, but it's importance has dwindled. My preference is analog compression for vocal tracking and that's about it. I guess I also go hybrid with guitar amp's using 100 watt heads into Two Notes Torpedo Studio. Digital or analog, the limiting factor is essentially down to ability, creativity, and experience.
After mixing ITB for about 6 years, I've been looking into analog gears. That's how I found your channel, Ed. I've been using emulation plugins for years and recently. I started tracking vocals through an ITB chain (0 latency plugins), mostly with Neve1073 style Pre & EQ, then an 1176 and LA2A. My goal is to familiarize myself with the committed settings on the way in. At first, I was making a big mess most of the time but I believe I got better after a couple of months. And I guess I'll be making some mistakes when I actually use analog units but it's quite necessary imo. Trial and error, of course.
Sounds like you’re in the Apollo world of DSP processing on the way in! It’s great! Goes a long way to improving raw audio for sure! Analog is a whole other beast of gain staging. I had to completely re-learn the concept for the different format. Still tweaking it for consistency.
It seems that the biggest problem is going back to old work. What was the compressor and EQ set at for the bass? Where was the panning done, where were the levels? This seems to be the biggest problem. Analog does sound better and you just reach for a knob and get what you want, digital is a nightmare because of all the "tricks" needed to know for setting up the OS, the DAW, the plug-ins, etc, but with digital things won't change when you go back to the tracks 2 months later and automation is built in. Using detailed cue sheets with analog is time consuming but that's what is needed. Still automation is what's needed. Digital is only good when it's 24 bit, 96khz.
One thing for sure is that it looks very good for the video. :)That said. The recall every button at each session part , I couldn’t. And it not even about does it sound good or not.
I track straight to the DAW and use patchbays to route to all my analog gear and fine tune the sound of each track. Is it faster and more flexible doing it digitally yes and no, the recall is great but I have noticed since I began using more analog gear in my songs theres a lot less work to do on the back end so it’s subjective in a way. I still prefer the sound of analog over digital 90+% of the time.
I’m having a battle myself how I should do my stuff. I feel like when I record itb I would like to go into analog stuff then when recording with analog use itb stuff to mix . I’m want to record mostly with analog preamps to record with and finding it amazing using itb plugins.
I have tube pre amps and the rest is in the box but man if I had the money I would have distressors a Stamchild, 1176', and Newton channels. The list would endlessly grow I'm sure. It's what we love doing you can't feel bad about spending money on your passion.
I used hybrid for tracking. My compressors and preamps are hardware inserts that I can change on the fly inside the software. The only other use is reamping my drums to get them bigger sounding. Besides that hybrid mixing and all that recall is a nightmare!
I've been through analog gear, summing mixers, compressors, SSL Fusion & BusPlus etc. I've settled in high end digitally recallable mastering analog gear. I mix into the chain and bypass the limiter. It's by far the best solution I've come up with. You have to know what your'e doing but you can get to hear what the finished track sounds like. Then you print itb. Then send it back through the chain plus a few plugins and limiter on. Finished track. Sorted.
Serban Ghenea has won a total of 19 Grammy Awards and three Latin Grammy Awards. He mixes completely in the box. So yeah you probably should have spent that money on amazing monitors, that would have made a much bigger difference than a bunch of 500 series modules. If you can't hear it you can't engineer it 😊 Analog is a disease that we all catch at some point in our careers, but it's very liberating when it's cured. Tho it's a very expensive round trip.
After years of mixing through an expensive hybrid setup I recently challenged myself to take finished hybrid mixes and and put them back in the box to see how close I could match them. To my shock and dismay I started to notice that not only could I match my hybrid mixes but I was actually liking the ITB versions more. The hybrid mixes just sounded like they were pushing and smearing up against an invisible ceiling whereas the ITB mixes just felt open and effortless. Now I have to figure out what to do with all my gear 😢
Interesting. For sure there's some plugins that create space and openness, the UAD PulTec for example, so I use it for space. The low end on my IGS RBEQ sounds much better though so I use both. Result!
I went through the same process. When I converted my studio to Atmos I went full digital because I sold all my analog gear to fund the conversion. And I my surprise, my mixes were instantly better. By comparison my hybrid mixes were mushy for a lack of a better term. The digital mixes were so much clearer and open and punchy. Not sure when plugins and daws surpassed analog but they definitely have 🤔
@OfficialEllis tell that to Serban Ghenea 🤣 Also: Andrew Scheps, Tchad Blake, Michael Brauer, Dave Pensado, Phil Tan, etc. I'm sure you've heard of these guys and their amazing in the box mixes. Maybe you need to justify the money you wasted on analog equipment. There's nothing wrong with spending money on something you enjoy just realise that it's not needed, just wanted, there is a difference.
It doesn’t matter. It’s never a waste if you love them. I love mine. I mix 95% ITB and own all the UAD plugins amongst others like fabfilter. The mix then goes through my analog gear which for me, gives it that glue and analog feel. I only use the Wes audio ngcomp (I run the drums through it in the mix as well) better maker EQ and the Cranborne HE2. Then back in to my digital limiter. Best of both worlds and I love the setup.
That’s probably where I’ll end up tbf. I’m replaced all the gear in this video with digitally Recallable Wes Audio gear for the best of both worlds. Loving it so far!
No matter what people say. Digital is sharp and aggressive. Yes you can get the analog sound but it’s much easier (and cooler) to nip OTB and do it through real transformers etc…. Best thing I did
I moved to hybrid this year. I too think it gives more depth and frankly easier for me to get the sound I’m looking for more quickly. I also learned doing FOH on analog consoles so to me it is more natural to turn physical knobs. Could I achieve great mixes ITB? Sure. Is the difference worth the money I spent? Maybe. Do I enjoy the process and the creation more, 100% yes -and since my studio is more about having fun, helping people then I think my investment was worth it.
I’m pro whatever makes someone feel most creative, and gets them to the end point the fastest. For me, I love the ease and consistency of digital…with midi controllers. Adjusting channelstrips with a channelstrip controller (Rocksolid Audio Micro 4k), and having the ability to move faders and knobs (Behringer XTouch) give me the best of both worlds. Your mileage may vary.
I love analog. I mix in analog about 80% of the time for indie rock and alternative stuff. I’ve got a 2” tape machine in here for Pete’s sake. The thing that matters is that you’re working in a way that makes it efficient for you to deliver high quality results. If the analog stuff is saving you enough time to offset its cost and let you take more work, or improving your results enough to get you enough additional work, then it’s clearly the right way for you to work. If it’s not, then you’re right to question the investment. Analog comes with a lot of interesting logistical challenges, and getting efficient is important. I spent a LOT of time designing my workflow and investing in the gear necessary to make sure I could automate everywhere I needed to and wasn’t losing hours upon hours to printing things.
I wish hardware wasn't such a slow pain in my ass... but it is! So i am completely in the box now and will sacrifice the 5% quality difference for the speed and recallability. The average consumer listen to the music on laptop speakers and bad ear buds. They cant even tell a great mix from an okay mix, all they care about is if the music moves them. So I think if you focus on the writing, energy and performance that losing 5 or even 10% quality in the track won't make a difference at all.
Having started in 1993 I can state that analogue gear sounds great. But I have to be honest, plug-ins and emulation in 2023 is almost indistinguishable in a full mix. Add multiple instances, MASSIVELY less initial outlay, no maintenance no running cost, a lot more free space, no heat, instant recall, etc etc etc. There’s only one winner most of us who can’t afford 25k of analogue gear. And I have to be honest, I wouldn’t spent it on anomalous gear even if I had the cash lying around. For me the proof is in the pudding: I’ve been entirely in the box for three years now. And I’ve never looked back. Just my 2p’s worth!
Fair enough, man. It’s whatever works for you. For me it’s all about the learning experience too. Where do plugins come from, why do they try and emulate analog, etc.
After years of listening to people like Jaycen who preach the ITB gospel, I finally realized what this video highlighted. You have to get it right on the way in. You can do that so much easier with properly selected and utilized analog gear. I've got a hybrid setup. I use analog pre-amps and compressors on the way in. I really like API pre amps for the transients. You can tame them but it's difficult to get after the fact. I have a cranborne R8 so I can easily patch any of those peices of gear into any spot without touching any wires. It essentially feels like I'm using plugins, but I get knobs and a peice of hardware to interface with. I don't really see a huge need for outboard eq other than maybe a pultec or some other high end eq on the mix bus. Filters are a whole different thing. My pre amps have high pass filters built in and utilizing that is a game changer.
Cannot compare the process of staring at a screen (to see where the knobs are going, is the mouse in the right place) to putting your hand on a rotary and turning it without even looking to see what you're doing and using your ears to get the desired result. The analog compressors I have compared in real life have always beaten the plugins. But if you're not using them properly, then there's no conversation to be had about which sound better.
As a well known Mic Builder who was also an AE going back to the 70s told me 10yrs ago: "Plugins are getting better all the time but for compression (especially) the math simply isn't there to perform 20db of GR without artifacts. Here we are 10 years later and recently I went to a buddies great studio to mix and we tested his Cranesong Trakker against a shwack of plugins. Even with 10 yrs of processing power advancement, the Trakker still could suck -20db and we could get very aggressive with no audible artifacts. So you're on point re analog pres and comps I believe. But for timed based stuff, there have been massive improvements. So much so that this same chap with the Trakkers sold his Bricasti M7 (#7 so he was one of the first to get one) around 5yrs ago simply because he found the M7 IRs along with several others just as good and he wanted to sell it before it ended up just being a brick as valuable as an Alesis MidiVerb ;) Oh and my "troll comment" that you welcomed on the intro lol. Analog pres are beTT3R!; has WARN Audio (Kneve) mic amps that are simply a facade of the real circuit. Great River NV2 (designed by Wes Audio who I see you've invested in, heavily), Avedis, Aurora...whole slew of options that are legit and not fakes 😉 Cheers and cool channel!
I can’t hear the troll in your comment😜 Yeh, I didn’t even mention artefacts in this video (saving that, with Aliasing, for another Analog Vs Digital video) but it’s a good point. I couldn’t justify a Bricasto so went for AMS RMX16. Haven’t used it yet 🤣
Start by recording the same signal with the same microphone. Record the signal once through the expensive analog hardware and once directly through the digital interface. Then, leave the analog track as it is and process the digital recording with analog plugin emulations. If there is no audible difference, or if it’s impossible to tell which sounds better, then that's the definitive proof that you don't need analog hardware in the studio, as analog distortion can be easily emulated if desired! However, the problem will be that your studio will rarely be booked, because a room full of unnecessary hardware often creates a "wow" effect for many people "gg".
I'm a believer in having tools you may never need, until that day you need them. So no you haven't wasted your money. My first piece of analog gear was a Art Pro VLAII compressor. Having it at my fingers helped me to get to understand how compression works. I'm a believer everything sounds better through analog outboard gear. I'm like you using a hybrid set up. There are certain plugins I can't live without like the MV2. So in conclusion for me, No you didn't waste your money, you just use a different set of tools. Awesome set up Ed, love the idea with 500 series equipment especially that patchbay. I hope to expand my beer budget studio set up one day soon. Keep the videos coming.
The non linear processes would be Aliasing free in the analogue domain. But that's easily remedied by oversampling and Anti Aliasing filters. We need to mix in the box for perfect recall in this world of endless revisions.
@@EdThorne thanks! it's an awesome desk, unfortunately a bit out of my budget , 2.3 grand holy crap. lucky for me i'm good with my hands. i've found the assembly manual of this desk and i'm pretty confident i can build something similar looking myself. so i guess i'm a carpenter now? new hobby unlocked.
For recording is analog gear the best but I alway's record a split channel with no outboard fx so when I mix and the sound I recorded doesn't work in the final track I can go back to the (clean) original recording . For mixing I do almost everything in the box .
I have a hybrid setup similar to you: lots of stereo racks, some 500 units separately and one or two mono pieces. My purpose for analog is simply for character. All my corrective stuff is ITB. But it’s perfectly okay for experimentation with gear to provide sources of inspiration to us in the moment just as much as it is to sound good. Whatever helps us stay connected to the process and on our journey is what’s important. Ultimately, so long as you are finishing music in whatever fashion you aspire; writing, mixing, mastering… that’s what is important. How you get there is not. Consistent releases/product is more important in this generation than the the quality of music was previously. Peoples tastes are s***! The vast majority of people are less invested in music and artistry, peoples attentions spans are shorter and so interest to any discipline is watered down. Music is served to our fingers before it is our ears so long gone are the generations of talents like Stevie Wonder etc. The saying is hard work beats talent until talent beats hard work has never been truer. Ultimately, you could use talent as a metaphor for analog gear - it only benefits your music if you are achieving consistency. Otherwise, what’s it got to add value to besides your electricity bill! If analog gear helps keep you interested in your journey, that for the most part is worth the investment.
To answer rhe vid title by myself Yes and no Yes if you focus on soundresults and have knowledge on whats outthere to mix in the box No if you love the workflow with hardware and love hardware in generell In 2024 and counting you can get pro results with soft and hardware
The key to a great mix, is good tracking. And that entails good performances, sources, rooms, mics and preamps. If that's done right, a good mix is largely levels. Then EQ, where hardware and ITB are largely one and the same thing. Then there's dynamics and that's where the path forks. One question to ask is, putting commercial aspect aside, when you listen to Jaycen Joshua's productions: do you feel that they sound good, or bad? It's personal and subjective. But I suspect the answer to that question seperates the camps that would lean more toward hardware or software. I know how I feel. But, even then, hybrid is still the common sense choice because of budget, and practicality (automation/recall, especially). The ITB people are targetting a very specific sound, for their market. With layers of extensive processing. And software suits that. Each to their own.
People do gear shootouts to determine whether plugins can beat hardware. While those shootouts do measure something, the incremental audible difference between hardware and software, they don't measure one thing: whether a song sounds good to human ears. That depends on the human ears making the song, and crafting the mix. That is about awareness and consciousness. It has been shown in every genre that high quality music can be mixed without outboard gear. Due to massive workflow advantages, only time remains before most records are mixed ITB.
Money spent in things that a) make you happy (like analog gear does to me) and b) gets you better sounds (whether they are really better or perceived) is MONEY WELL SPENT.
I haven't checked in with Jaycen recently but I believe he still does do analog summing over an SSL console into Lavry Gold converters... so likely headroom for days that an average person with a laptop is going to experience when it comes to ITB. I personally produced and mixed ITB out of financial necessity for the past 20 years (couldn't afford outboard gear), until more recently I've been in a better place to afford it and I've been building a hybrid setup. I absolutely love it! I have everything running over normalled patchbays into good analog converters and I've made it so I can merely audition the hardware in my rack with the same ease of a plugin, enable/bypass with a click. Yes the downside there is recall is not automatic and I can't save "presets," but maybe because I'm not working on jobs with crazy deadlines and last minute feedback, I honestly don't mind at all. I weirdly enjoy taking my time and disconnecting from computers & screens, working with my hands. It makes me feel more engaged with the craft, reliant on my ears when turning knobs, and I actually feel like it's making me a better mixer and producer to really hear what these tools do in the analog realm and not have presets to recall immediately. Secondly, I am noticing a vast improvement in my headroom. Not a subtle difference, but a major one. I used to have issues with my all-ITB mixes feeling choked in spite of everything, and if I hit my master bus slightly too hard the clipping was always a bit nasty. With hybrid I'm hearing a lot more spatial depth and headroom, so even if I do hit the hardware master bus chain slightly too hard, the soft-clipped saturation sounds glorious and depending on the music sometimes even desirable, something I never experienced all ITB :) As someone who is more of a composer & producer (than a professional mixer), I feel like I make music differently, too. I really enjoy tracking with nice pres and compressors on the way in, whether that's a gentle kiss, or even sometimes destroying something intentionally, using a compressor as a tone box for unique types of saturation and color. Either way I love Hybrid and I don't mind the extra time and steps it takes - which helps me think about music and songwriting in a new way! I will still sometimes mix ITB though, especially if I were to take on a project with tight deadlines, which to me is the reason I think a lot of pro mixers have gone that route fully because the demand-to-pay ratio has shifted so dramatically in recent years.
You mentioned that JJ would be getting top class stems tracked through high end gear but....does he only mix acoustic instruments? What about midi and sampled drums/instruments? These are not "recorded" through high end gear but you can mix them with analog gear not so? Please correct me if I am wrong and thanks!
As a hobbyist, I’m surprised no comments about pedals for reamping or as effects, some are unique. Other than that I can only justify outboard compressors and tape saturation when I want to hit them hard. (Plug-ins usually have more limited sweet spots) .
I’ve subscribed to Paul 3rd years ago, love his channel. I’m hybrid… I track my vocals, half of my bass and a 1/4 of my guitars through analog gear. 3/4 of My drums and synths and orchestral tracks are virtual instrument track so I still need analog gear. I found a way to master my track through analog gear and record it to a CD which allows me to clip a little then burn the recorded track from the CD back into the computer. I love that Jayson Joshua’s God Particle too
Hybrid is the way to go, in my opinion. I have lots of gear and I find I’ll achieve the result I’m after, faster, the more analog gear I use. Things are smoother, elements sit better and the mix gels quickly and nicely. I have done great 100% ITB mixes, but ideally, it’s best to use plugins on individual tracks and have an analog mix bus. Sure, recall is a pain… but I don’t see myself selling off my gear. I also favor a retro / tube vibe… as I record of lots of 50’s and 60’s covers.
Analog Will Always Beat Digital In A LIVE ARENA Setting, But If You're Mixing For iPhone User's And Alike, Then Digital Is Basically All That You Need.
@@EdThorne When Hybrid is Used, The Final Outs Are Always Through ANALOG Gear Then Directly To The AMPS To BOOM Out Those Speakers. (FOR CONCERTS And LIVE ARENA'S).
Been there, done that, over the years bought tons of gear, then sold it all. If you are a tracking studio makes sense. Mixing, maybe not. I know guys with laptop, Apollo, & satellites, doing some amazing work.
Exactly what Jaycen Joshua is doing! But I’m pretty sure his assistants are pre-mixing through analog. He didn’t confirm or deny at Abbey Road last week.
@@EdThorne I’m pretty sure he’s using the RCA BA-6a’s, Pultecs, 1073’s and rev a 1176’s heavily, He did a great interview with Warren Huart, showed his entire studio in detail. If You haven’t seen it, check it out. ruclips.net/video/AsKkg--4mBQ/видео.html
If you have the skills(im sure you do),and optimized your room and monitoring first, and above all , you're coming up with results you are really happy with, then i don't think you wasted your money on analog gear, rather used your tools to full potential and took advantage of what the analog has to offer vs staying itb. This offset the cost imo. If you think you are able to get "same" mixes quality without struggling more and putting more effort and time, satying itb , then u can consider downsizing maybe. In both cases happy mixing
lol yi went down this rabbithole, for a decade 30 grand in and now out, i kept my prism lyra and a 1073n, the 500 series never could hold a weight and density tracking compared to my thermionic culture, and as my mixing got better and the right plugins and such, now my paintbrushes and small itb rig sound as good as the records i loved, its a tough pill but true, its in the mix these days, and sony mdr7506 translate great to small bose systems realworld stuff etc, just make sure the tracking chain pre ad and clock is great then your away, prism get it done
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
Are you ITB, Analog, or Hybrid?
➡ Jaycen Joshua Seminar Review Video: ruclips.net/video/e5I5ZIhRgfQ/видео.html
I'm hybrid but about 95% of that is ITB lol. The other 5% is my mixbus chain and printing vocal stems thru my vocal chain if I know they tracked their own vocals with an interface.
@@subtonic24 Sounds like a solid set up. Analog where needed and convenience elsewhere.
Absolutely! I’ve Been Mixing Here In Atlanta For 30 Years! Came Up On SSL, Neve & Trident But My Friend Glen Schick Moving Completely In The Voice Inspired Me To Go For It Although I Have Tons Of Vintage Outboard Gear From Over The Years From API, Dbx, Focusrite, Bae, Drawmer, and Manley. But Because I’ve Used The Actual Hardware And Understand What It Should SoundLike And How It Should Be Used. I Get Great Results Now Totally ITB. Thanks For The Discussion 👌 Spent My Available Cash On Speakers And Amazing Conversion
90 itb, 10 otb. Just preamp and Channel strip for record acoustic sources and for GTR reamping, and a summing mixer for the last step in mastering.
I record ITB and then send the session to a studio with a console and peripherals 👍
I've been working in the music industry for 25+ years. I mix full time. Between 150 - 200 projects a year. I'm a freelancer so I'm mostly working with people who are recording at home so the tracks I get to work with are usually less than ideal. I do have a few pieces of hardware but I'm working %75 ITB and I get KILLER mixes time and time again. I know this to be true because I have a proven track record and my clients return time and time again. I also compare my work to the stuff on the charts all the time. Yes, there is a difference but I'm almost positive the difference is more from the tracks I am being provided to work with than from my skillset or tools. Getting it right at the source is BY FAR the most important thing. The tools will only take you so far and it doesn't matter if they are digital or analog at that point. That's what I've learned over all these years.
That’s great, Matt, sounds like you’re smashing it! The key to all of this is good stems is the general consensus.
@@EdThorne For sure. Getting it right at the source is by far the most important part of a good mix. Even tho it really has nothing to do with mixing. I use the same plugins and hardware for almost every mix I work on. So I'm consistently using the same stuff to do the work. So if it was the gear that mattered, in theory, every mix should sound pretty much just as good as the last one. We all know that's not how it works tho lol. The quality of the performances matters quite a bit too. If you have good recordings performed by people who can actually play/sing well then you are off to the best start you can be. Those two things are the most important. After that, it's knowing what to do with the tracks when you get them. If I had to put a number on it, in my experience anyway, the tools you use to get the job done account for about 30% of the whole picture. I've mixed everywhere from world-famous control rooms to the train lol. I've done mixes that were 100% analog and 100% digital. I rarely find myself saying, "man if I only had (insert plugin/hardware name here) that would be all I need to knock this mix out of the park". I often find myself saying, "if these guitars were recorded better the whole mix would sound so much better"!
Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for listening hahaha!
If you are the same matt NYC that is on gear space then I appreciate reading your posts over there.
@@RealHomeRecording Hey Adam! While I do post on gear space every now and again, unfortunately I'm pretty confident I'm not the Matt you speak of lol. I'm not very active there usually. Sorry to disappoint haha!!
@@matt_nyc_audioengineer Yes it's true for mixes. The only thing that sounded true (one pro was saying...) was that in "mastering stage" (where you want that extra 5% of magic) working with some extra analog gear is much more forgiving if you make any small mistake where with digital you have to do everything almost perfect for top result. I don't even mix in computer (everything on a outside high end keyboard workstation) and I've reached progress using the same stuff over and over and I found quickly is better to work with the same tools for years getting best with it than constantly changing the plug'ins and making a big mess everytime ... :)) I use only some transformers at mastering stage and a high end preamp makes sence when recording vocals which again conforms your point that the recordings must be top notch and you are already 90% there - if you know how to mix reasonably well of course. Years ago I thought: I have a bad gear, I should work with computer, than 5 years later my mixes are 100 times better with the same tools, so it's not so much gear as knowledge and expirence. The tehnology nowdays (ITB mixing) is good enough so you can make great mixes. 20 years ago was a different story, but not today. As I said, maybe in mastering stage makes sence to add some analog stuff in the chain ...:)
The old debate hardware v digital…All the famous top end ITB mixers like Andrew Scheps receive their audio that’s been tracked through analogue….Ed mentioned this….this kills the debate. By all means use a EQ plugin to tweak a vocal tracked with a U87 and Neve preamp 1176-LA2A hardware chain….but don’t think for one minute a plugin chain will beat a quality hardware front end.
The big things for me are ergonomics, the experience, and inspiration. Being able to turn a knob vs use my mouse is significant in all 3 places. It's significantly less wear and tear on my arm (I've had 3 surgeries), it feels tangible which tends to allow me to really feel the music more intimately, and of course because of that I'm inspired to work and have fun doing so!
When I moved from outboard gear (including an analogue desk) to ITB, it took me a long time to get the same quality of results I previously achieved. This, like most things, was down to skill, knowledge of my gear and not the gear itself. A monkey with a mouse is not an audio engineer with decades of experience.
Great analogy!
Aye, all the gear, no idea. Skill always beats blowing thousands on gear.
Hardware experience (especially consoles) changes the way you use a DAW and Jaycen certainly wouldn't be on that level without it.
Hardware Vs plugins are a completely different workflow for sure! I need to develop more consistent gain staging with my analog I think.
I’ve always loved the Knobs and switches at the reach of your fingertips
Analog for tracking, digital for mixing. That's all you need. So, if you can use the outboard you use for mixing for recording, I think it worth it.
The plan was to use it for both. I’m using some of it for track and have plans to use all of it when I can get into my career goal studio.
This.
100% agree here. If your tracks have mojo in the first place you can mix from there in the box after the fact. I also believe in the tracking phase to create a vibe and I do the "live and die" by it method (at least 80% of the time) and have it all baked in (modulation, effects, good and bad noises, etc).
that is my exact game plan.
since i have u gathered here may i ask, what nice slow compressor would you guys recommend for vocals ?
in a dual comp setup where i already have a quick vca one ( max 8ms on attack)
trying not to break the bank with a cl1b :s
and also how hard u guys go on A/D converters ??
im on a adi-2 which became the weakest link in my chain but i have no reference point to know how much better it could get
@@LordBiffMusic For my 500 series rack I love my Hairball FET/500 Revision D for vocals. For my AD/DA I am using a Cranborne 500ADAT chassis so it takes care of that and then some.
For an Opto type compressor I can't recommend the Audio-Scape Opto Compressor enough especially for the price you pay. Love their gear! I also have a Revive-Audio modded ART VLA II (I went with the Cinemag add on) that was very affordable and is excellent after the mod.
If you are willing to make a switch and have an interface with 500 series the Cranborne 500R8 might be worth a look as it it does a lot and has A/D and Adat and summing built in. If i did things over I would of gone with that as my do it all piece.
Great video, well said!
I have a hybrid setup. Doing my own shootouts analog hardware is better than plugins, but the difference is very subtle and slight. and if you record with analog gear it's practically non-existent. what matters is getting the harmonic saturation and natural warmth at some point in the signal chain. If you get it during the recording stage you won't need it later on. The issue now is that most people aren't mixing with hardware they're using on board preamps in a low end interface (looking at you focusrite 2i2) and giving it to you to mix. so putting it through hardware will make it a lot faster to mix - notice i didn't say BETTER - as your skill, room, ears, taste will always take you so far and if you have goals/vision that doesn't align with the client well then it's a bad mix. the analog gear i got is a bus compressor, distressor, api preamps (probably gonna sell), and a BAE (neve) 1028 pre/eq. Essentially I got a great signal chain to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the highest quality. granted my current space isn't a place to record any of those things well (i got all of that in my old place which was great for this stuff). In any case I think having a GREAT vocal chain these days is everything. get a top notch preamp and compressor combo (i highly recommend what i got rn) and don't skimp by buying warm audio it's not nearly as good, if you wanna save some cash get stam audio or a bunch of other brands that are slightly more money but much better quality (i've also heard a bit about quality control issues with warm).
So did you (or me) waste the money? Depends on your client base and how much you value your time (assuming you save a LOT of time with analog gear). here's the important thing too: if you don't like what you have, you can easily sell it for most of your money back, and in some cases i've actually earned a few dollars upon resell. it is VERY difficult to sell plugins these days. and in some cases nearly impossible to transfer licenses. plus analog hardware rarely becomes obsolete where as plugins can sound inferior after a few years. if you have the work or spare cash and record more than mix, it may be better to buy hardware. if you are only mixing, i don't think it matters much: whichever way works best for your workflow.
I spent 30k on a analog hybrid set up. Spent 50k moving to Nashville to go to Blackbird because it's a gear addicts dream. After all that, I sold all of it because the gear is not the problem. If we could buy great recordings with gear everyone would. You still have to play your instruments and write great music which is hard.
It's more important to learn proper recording and mixing techniques, but at the end of the day the gear are tools, an SM7 didn't sing Thriller for Michael Jackson, Aretha Franklin voice doesn't come with a U47. It starts at the source.
You can make great recordings with a Behringer x18 and budget mics.
I did one mix on the hybrid set up that I thought truly had an awesome analog sound, but other mixes in the box were better and easier to recall.
Unless you have an assistant, clients these days want recalls galore for the smallest adjustments. The analog gear didn't improve my mixes at all. It was more expensive and cumbersome.
Well said! I’m tempted to try some mixes using the analog for pre-mixing and printing and then going fully ITB. Trial and error.
@@EdThorne I mean I don’t think there’s a wrong way. It’s just about the workflow that you want.
I definitely had a lot of fun using compression on the way in with a real compressor and all that jazz and at one point I had a TG one and that was amazing on drums and I would use it in parallel on pretty much everything. It was a lot of fun I definitely don’t blame anyone for having analog gear . I just found that there was other things that I need to focus on to make a good song or a good mix
The thing I noticed about analog since my journey. The amount of headroom I have, the depth, and the sonic character from the gear. I love the hybrid approach.
Yeh, this is true!
I’m a tracking and mixing studio so having a console and outboard gear is very important for getting sounds how I want them. When mixing I’m itb unless someone wants to pay for analog mixing which is more because if recall. Honestly most clients don’t care how I mix it as long as it sounds good. If I was just a mix engineer I’d opt for a nice master bus chain.
As you said in the video, these guys are getting top tier recordings to mix. Plus decades of experience interning with other pros. Cheers
I think gear does not really matter in the mixing realm , i always mix in the box so i can make surgical mixng decisions . To me, the room + monitors (reference) & skill are more important than the type of EQ or Compressor i use
Skill before gear, for sure!
I’m slightly hybrid and want to head the way you have gone however hearing that 30k. I think it’s time to leave it as it is, back itb😂I don’t record audio just for mixing
Thumbs up for experience before any software or hardware you use. I have been mixing for 25 years. I first started with a Mackie Digital 8 bus and an Otari Radar 24 ch. recorder. From their the owner of that studio built an enormous studio with Studer 827As, Pro Tools, Outboard gear AND an SSL 9k!!! Worked their for many years, mixed many albums in that console, although only recorded to tape once; drums, bass and guitars and bounced into Pro Tools. Then I built a hybrid studio in my house and started doing side projects in there. I would sometimes mix in my studio then go mix the same song on the console, not only did it sound better but I worked much faster. But some projects wouldn’t have the budget for the console so I had to work in my home studio. Then I went to a studio with Oxford consoles, and although they are the best faders I’ve worked on, the sound wasn’t like the SSL. Then I stopped going to this studios and worked a lot in my home studio, I kept getting better with the hybrid system, and I was working faster and the budgets for the projects kept reducing!! So there was no going back. Then I started working with a producer who had two SSL 4ks. My first mixes sucked! So it was a hit and miss thing. The problem was I was doing the same things ITB and using the console as a summing mixer, but the color was getting in my way. Although the last mixes I did on it were much better, recalls were a nightmare. And we had a lot of clients so I couldn’t afford the time wasted. Came back to my hybrid mixing and just did the best I could. One day I moved to another city and didn’t want the hassle of reconnecting everything. I was working on one project that started in the hybrid system and decided to finish it 100% ITB. The results after adjusting some levels, especially drums and bass was negligible to me and to the band. Since then I stayed ITB and didn’t look back. In my experience, having to know how to get great results is the key. If you can get them with gear, go ahead! Still the recording process does have to have at least great mics, mic-pres and a/d conversion. That is a must!
I went from full studio with Neve V72 Otari Tape machines PTs and about £70k of outboard. To a hybrid mixing system based around a neve 8816 and 8804 summing system about 10 years ago . Kept a lot of the outboard for a few years and slowly realised the recall is genuinely impossible even with neves fancy recall software . It was never the same and as I got to working on more Media composition quick recall became essential and the benefits of my outboard g series bus comp and ancient pultecs where getting smaller and smaller .
Hence 11 years in from closing the studio in now entirely ITB. I’ve kept a few choice bits for tracking but essentially I’m down to one rack with 5 units init . That’s it .
I could never go back to analog again now .
And how did the sound changed? Did your increased skillset matched the missing analog gear (im not a native speaker)?
Brill vid Ed. Thanks for being so transparent about your thought process re mixing.
My pleasure! I hope it inspired.
Analogue is awesome! However, for simplicity, space and $ sake, I've been recording completely in the box with my Apollo for half a decade and never looked back. Awesome video and content as usual Ed, thanks for all you've done for our audio community!
“Never look back” is good advice, otherwise you’ll forever be second guessing yourself. Be decisive & stick to your guns. ✌️🍷🎩🎩🎩
Hey man some great points were made here I think you're correct The recording source if it's high quality it makes all of the difference
Thanks! It’s one common denominator of all the “celebrity” mix engineers (besides decades of experience) - flawless sounding stems… can’t go wrong!
Have you checked out some of the Stam Audio 500 Series Compressors?
Yes. I have 2 x SA76s and an SA-3A🔥 My podcast audio and all vocals go through the SA3A.
Mannnn that desk and set up is utterly beautiful. Major props man.
Thanks. It’s a Zaor Miza Flex 2: ruclips.net/video/xhBC87J2BkU/видео.html
Analog hardware has the benefit of no latency. Which is a Really Big benefit, especially when it comes to automation. I am not aware of any daw that has perfectly addressed the issue of plugin latency compensation with automation.
It’s such a catch 22. I really do love the warm audio stuff for the quality and affordable. Running through that stuff during tracking I feel and hear the slight improvements
I find subtle EQ and compression on the way in makes a huge difference, especially on vocals. Can’t knock the WA stuff for the money.
Did you say ”Warm Audio” (the company) for quality??? If thats the case then LOL
I stick to Audioscape and Stam (even Black Lion)- happy to own no Warm (as poor as I am lol) woukd feel like buying Behringer ( tho I’m sure Warm are better humans then behrnger ceo
since most people consume audio in mp3 format, with wireless earphones or headphones, and we record digitally these days, I couldn't care less about analogue gear. Well when I say couldn't care less. I mean although I would like the analogue gear personally, the end user isn't really going to tell, and learning is more important.
Learning and skill set is 100% the most important thing!
It depends on the plugin, some plugins can get close to the real analog gear and some don't. Also you are absolutely right, the skill in the end is what matters most.
And some plugins do things analog can’t. I like having the best of both worlds.
Having grown up with analog and tape machines and analog hardware, I sold off almost all of my anaolg gear back in the 2000's and went ITB. After using that for 15 years I started buying analog gear again and began inserting it back into my workflow. Mostly in the tracking stage but mixing as well. Without a doubt, analog gear sounds better than plugins, but the truth is, some plugins will do things analog can't without spending many tens of thousands of dollars. A hybrid setup is the way to go. There are advantages to each platform.
Hybrid is the best of both worlds. We need plugins for side chaining, dynamic EQs and multi-bands.
No, you didn't "waste" your money. If a hybrid workflow is how you like to work then embrace it and move forward. I hear a lot of "this person mixes hit records and only uses, blah, blah, blah",....Andrew Scheps mixes on $100 headphones,....this big time mixer does this, etc, etc. As you said, if you get impeccably record raw tracks you're more than halfway there. It's one of the differences between truly pro and not.
Cheers, Billy. You’re very right. More over, I just LOVE 500 stuff, it’s a joy to use.
Hybrid, I think you touch on the main driver for me it's the tangible feedback. I tweak a knob I hear the results. I often feel a disconnect with plugins and tend to lean into presets rather than play with it and find what sounds right, meanwhile understanding the why behind it
I worked in a million dollar studio back in 2000s. It had the SSL 9000 and 4000. Doesn’t get better then that. With tons of outboard gear. Back then yes you needed that gear. Today you can still use it. But I can make a really great mix just using plugins and my RME interface. Plugins have caught up finally. And now if you are using outboard gear it’s for preference not out of necessity.
plugins make amazing music but still no where near hardware plugins still lack depth and 3Dness and a polish that plugins still struggle with again not to say you cannot get good masters in the box
Plugin compressors suck they just don’t measure up
Amazing video Ed, appreciate the honesty! Fair play to you haha. Followed the podcast now 🎉
Awesome, thanks for the support.
Great video Ed! You have awesome gear. I don't think you wasted your money, but I do think you have a few modules that do roughly the same thing or do things that plugins can do (much faster). When I buy analog gear, I always do my research and demos to make sure that there is either no plugin equivalent or the plugin equivalent is not nearly as good as the hardware. This strategy has worked very well for me. I have owned or used most of the modules you have, I can tell you that there is no plug-in that does what the RM HD456 does; so that is a smart investment though you need one more. The SSL G Bus 500 is also another module that regularly outshines the plug-in equivalent, so another smart buy. The WES Audio stuff is great but imo there are plugins that work just as well. When I had them, I found that I used the recall function much less than I expected. I had similar experience with the API EQs, they are awesome but I sold them after I used the UA version. I kept my Maags because imo they sound much more 3D than the plugins. I love the SSL EQs but again I felt that I got similar performances from UA and PA plugins. I also enjoyed the Harrison EQs but again I had the UA version which sounds very similar.
I would say with analog gear; it's good to limit yourself to what you absolutely need for your workflow and nothing else. I have come to learn (the hard way) that the beginning and the end of the signal chain are very important investment as well. IF you asked me; in your case I would trim off on some modules that don't get much use and upgrade your monitoring system - perhaps something with DSP and bigger drivers than your current system (Genelecs, Geithain, PSI). No doubt you will hear a difference and that can contribute to building your skills.
Hey there. Thanks for the feedback, some great comments there. Yeh, I definitely got suckered into the GAS of 500 series - they’re like adult Pokémon cards 🤣 I’ve just rotated a few pieces out (video in the way) for those exact reasons. I agree with your assessment of most of those pieces besides the APIs. They have a depth like no plugin I’ve ever heard. And, yeh, I’ve considered upgrading my monitoring but my room is a bigger problem so I don’t think it’s worth the investment atm. I fell in love with PMCs in LA but would probably go ATC. Genelecs are good but not for me.
@@EdThorne Absoultely! Man 500 series are so cute and collectible though 🤣
I do hybrid, but without using a summing box. I use my converters as inserts in Studio One and it compensates for the round trip. Studio One also lets me replace the audio engine with a API or SSL console emulation on a kernel level. I dig it.
Nothing beats turning a knob and getting it right, but sometimes plugins are preferred
Absolutely. Analog feels good and plugins pick up the slack where analog can’t help me (dynamic EQ, multi-band comp, side chaining etc). Best of both wins for me
Great post. For me, the issue is portability. I have family in 3 different states and using VSTs just makes sense.
I track through analog gear on the way in then I subtractive EQ, clip or compress then route to the outboard gear 1. Kick 2. Bass 3/4. drums 5/6. Keys/guitars 7/8. Vocals for compression/EQ/saturation and limiting to the A to D conversion to computer #2 for overall balance and EQ multi band compression and EFX
I have a small mixing room with treatment but I still do all of my mixing decisions with headphones because it’s easier to hear my EQ moves and I play through the mains to check the low end.
In the box does things better and the rack gear does things better. I don’t trust one size fits all situations
IMO tracking in small space studios can only be done using headphones and analog gear.
Analog Rules!! gets you there in no time.
You’ve got a lot to choose from for source recording. No waste. Keep it all and get really good with it.
That's 100% the plan 🙂
When I first started recording with a DAW I literally used it like my old tape machine. 16 in/16 out thru my old Mackie 8 buss desk. These days I do everything ITB, except for vocals going in, which I sometimes track thru my old TLA Ivory if I want some overdrive to do some screaming. Even then, Cubase's stock "Da Tube" sometimes sounds better (actually used both on my GnR covers). For the money I wanna spend and the amount of people who will listen to my songs, ITB works best for me, at my skill level.
Super interesting. I’ve just come across your videos through your review of the Jaycen Joshua seminar. I too was at that seminar, and I too have a hybrid setup albeit less than you have. I too came ash wondering if it was worth continuing and have already done a few experiments to test that theory. My conclusion… not sure! Either way I wish I had Jaycen Joshua’s ability to see what needs doing with a mix so quickly!! Cheers
Analog for recording absolutely... Digital for mixing because of recall......signal Processing analog........ Mastering depends.
This seems to be the common agreement.
@@EdThorne this is something i have come to realize with analog for tracking….. it came from using My mpc….. it sounds amazing and whenever I go into a studio everyone notices it, I believe it is because of analog forgiveness on clipping vs pure digital recording clipping. When you clip digitally its perfect so its harsh and brittle. When I record into my mpc and clip its phat with depth, and when you process through a analog board or analog gear and record into the mpc….its pristine you can tell the difference immediately.
I had the very same thought sitting a few rows behind you. When JJ’s achieving mixes like that 100% ITB then i concluded 1/2 way through the seminar I did need to spend what I have in past year on analog gear. And I was VERY glad my wife was not in the audience lol. Commercially for mixers, it does not make sense. Maybe for producers and much more for recording engineers it makes more sense.
Am I gutted I spent 5x that on outboard? Not at all. I knew going in that ITB was much more efficient both practically and commercially. BUT. For experimental and educational purposes I don’t regret a penny. In fact once I buy protools and figure out the rest of JJ’s chain i’ll fill in the gaps. I already have 80% of the analog equip of his chain. And SHMC been ordered since.
But my needs are different from startup/small scale mixers or large commercial mastering factories. I only have one client and I’m not on the clock.
So in conclusion if I had the aim of setting up a small mix suite then I would say 25k mostly on 500s would be a waste if money. Interface, high end channel strip and rest on speakers and room correction i think would be better.
But you’re 100% and the biggest takeaway from that seminar. Whatever tools are used. It is the skill of the mixer that matters. What plugin or hardware used will have little bearing on the mix if the skill is not there. So investing in those skills and the tile to learn is next stage for me. In meantime just hire in the talent.
Thanks for the two vids on the seminar. Great work!
Is there any video, where you talk about that lovely desk you have?
Yes, there is: ruclips.net/video/xhBC87J2BkU/видео.htmlsi=fzYiwK47fKl9Wa6W
Been considering getting a neve (not a clone) 1073 DPA to re track stems and track vocals through… - because cumulatively the difference is blatant, and having that at the start of the mixing would be an easy step up.
then potentially a bus compressor or something for the mix bus… but the digital bus processors like Shadow Hills A and Softubes are really good now so it’s not a necessity.
The routing and all that is a head blag though
I have an Apollo Twin X, and I know the converters are cleaner than the previous models. But I’m still not sure if I’d need a separate piece of gear to A>D D
Forget about "which sounds better," I ask myself "which is more enjoyable and whats the value of enjoying what I do"? Theres my equation. Hybrid setup here
Here here! I much prefer knobs and buttons than finger tracking.
nice video, subscribed
Thanks, Paul! I appreciate the support.
what analog is good for, saturating the bass with sine waves instead of distorting with square waves in digital. Dre would slam the kicks and bass in a tape and would come out perfect.
Hey Ed. First: super interesting Video. So thanks for this. I would love to have some outboard gear for tracking. Since 3 years i am working with the Apollo X4 and its good. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make a comparison with real preamplifiers so far. but I could imagine that there are certain advantages. Thanks and greetz. Carsten ✌🏼
Watch this space for a Neve preamp comparison. Thanks for supporting the channel. Can’t go wrong with the X4, you can make some killer vocal input chains
@@EdThorne Will do, thanks. Main focus is tracking guitars, bass, drums. 😃✌🏼
Excellent video. In my view, the performance of plugins versus hardware is pretty much a wash ….but there is something special about reaching for a knob and tweaking a box you know like the back of your hand. I am all about the hybrid approach.
Thanks, Mick.
I interned in a professional studio that had some high-end outboard gear and I’ve always been absolutely obsessed with hardware emulations. I used to track through an Avalon 737 almost every day and after I left that internship I ended up buying the UAD plug-in version. It was so close it was practically a jump scare. But a few months later I bought a couple high-end 500 series modules pretty much exclusively for tracking guitar and vocals and they absolutely BLEW me away. I had some limited experience w analog gear as mentioned before but really I was mixing and producing exclusively in the box for about 15 years before that. I’m still a heavy believer that plug-ins these days are so close that the average listener up to even some advanced engineers wouldn’t be able to tell the difference but there is absolutely that extra something and I don’t think it’s worthless by any means. There’s something to be said for getting it right at the source in a way that digital can’t really accomplish to the same degree imo. So I think analog in the tracking stage (and really nailing it) really still is the way to do it and get the best results. What you do after that simply comes down to skill and knowledge of the tools. But if it makes you feel better that stuff isn’t a waste of money and the reasons extend even past the sound quality itself. When somebody walks into your studio and they see that gear they instantly gain confidence. Sometimes that means more then most people understand.
It comes down to what gets you to the result you're after.
It also depends on the genre of music and the instruments your mixing.
You can argue people like Andrew Scheps has mixed multi-platinum records all in the box, but also remember, how much outboard gear was all that tracked through on the way in. A lot of the mojo is baked in during the tracking stages so if you're starting with great recordings to begin with then...
Getting you're sound right from the source is the key.
Absolutely!
Analog has a nice look to it, gives one the sense of street cred, but it's importance has dwindled. My preference is analog compression for vocal tracking and that's about it. I guess I also go hybrid with guitar amp's using 100 watt heads into Two Notes Torpedo Studio. Digital or analog, the limiting factor is essentially down to ability, creativity, and experience.
After mixing ITB for about 6 years, I've been looking into analog gears.
That's how I found your channel, Ed. I've been using emulation plugins for years and recently.
I started tracking vocals through an ITB chain (0 latency plugins), mostly with Neve1073 style Pre & EQ, then an 1176 and LA2A. My goal is to familiarize myself with the committed settings on the way in. At first, I was making a big mess most of the time but I believe I got better after a couple of months.
And I guess I'll be making some mistakes when I actually use analog units but it's quite necessary imo.
Trial and error, of course.
Sounds like you’re in the Apollo world of DSP processing on the way in! It’s great! Goes a long way to improving raw audio for sure! Analog is a whole other beast of gain staging. I had to completely re-learn the concept for the different format. Still tweaking it for consistency.
From big analog console to hybrid to itb. I have abandoned analog equipment in mixing for years. But I still use analog as much as I can in mastering.
Analog in and out seems to be the consensus. 🔥🤘
It seems that the biggest problem is going back to old work. What was the compressor and EQ set at for the bass? Where was the panning done, where were the levels? This seems to be the biggest problem. Analog does sound better and you just reach for a knob and get what you want, digital is a nightmare because of all the "tricks" needed to know for setting up the OS, the DAW, the plug-ins, etc, but with digital things won't change when you go back to the tracks 2 months later and automation is built in. Using detailed cue sheets with analog is time consuming but that's what is needed. Still automation is what's needed. Digital is only good when it's 24 bit, 96khz.
One thing for sure is that it looks very good for the video. :)That said. The recall every button at each session part , I couldn’t. And it not even about does it sound good or not.
Yeh, recall is a hassle but the FLock Audio Patch DX app makes this a hell of a lot easier!
I track straight to the DAW and use patchbays to route to all my analog gear and fine tune the sound of each track. Is it faster and more flexible doing it digitally yes and no, the recall is great but I have noticed since I began using more analog gear in my songs theres a lot less work to do on the back end so it’s subjective in a way. I still prefer the sound of analog over digital 90+% of the time.
I’m having a battle myself how I should do my stuff. I feel like when I record itb I would like to go into analog stuff then when recording with analog use itb stuff to mix . I’m want to record mostly with analog preamps to record with and finding it amazing using itb plugins.
I’m still tweaking my workflow. I have a feeling I will be my whole career.
I have tube pre amps and the rest is in the box but man if I had the money I would have distressors a Stamchild, 1176', and Newton channels. The list would endlessly grow I'm sure. It's what we love doing you can't feel bad about spending money on your passion.
I have the hardware distressor and the UAD distressor...not one difference. Please save ya money
The list will endlessly grow. Especially with 500 series, they’re like adult Pokémon cards 🤣
I used hybrid for tracking. My compressors and preamps are hardware inserts that I can change on the fly inside the software. The only other use is reamping my drums to get them bigger sounding. Besides that hybrid mixing and all that recall is a nightmare!
I've been through analog gear, summing mixers, compressors, SSL Fusion & BusPlus etc. I've settled in high end digitally recallable mastering analog gear. I mix into the chain and bypass the limiter. It's by far the best solution I've come up with. You have to know what your'e doing but you can get to hear what the finished track sounds like. Then you print itb. Then send it back through the chain plus a few plugins and limiter on. Finished track. Sorted.
Serban Ghenea has won a total of 19 Grammy Awards and three Latin Grammy Awards. He mixes completely in the box. So yeah you probably should have spent that money on amazing monitors, that would have made a much bigger difference than a bunch of 500 series modules. If you can't hear it you can't engineer it 😊
Analog is a disease that we all catch at some point in our careers, but it's very liberating when it's cured. Tho it's a very expensive round trip.
Ha. Thanks for the heads up. Yeh, Serban’s done alright. I’m enjoying analog for now and I’m on the search for good monitors atm.
After years of mixing through an expensive hybrid setup I recently challenged myself to take finished hybrid mixes and and put them back in the box to see how close I could match them. To my shock and dismay I started to notice that not only could I match my hybrid mixes but I was actually liking the ITB versions more. The hybrid mixes just sounded like they were pushing and smearing up against an invisible ceiling whereas the ITB mixes just felt open and effortless. Now I have to figure out what to do with all my gear 😢
Interesting. For sure there's some plugins that create space and openness, the UAD PulTec for example, so I use it for space. The low end on my IGS RBEQ sounds much better though so I use both. Result!
I went through the same process. When I converted my studio to Atmos I went full digital because I sold all my analog gear to fund the conversion. And I my surprise, my mixes were instantly better. By comparison my hybrid mixes were mushy for a lack of a better term. The digital mixes were so much clearer and open and punchy. Not sure when plugins and daws surpassed analog but they definitely have 🤔
@OfficialEllis tell that to Serban Ghenea 🤣
Also: Andrew Scheps, Tchad Blake, Michael Brauer, Dave Pensado, Phil Tan, etc. I'm sure you've heard of these guys and their amazing in the box mixes. Maybe you need to justify the money you wasted on analog equipment. There's nothing wrong with spending money on something you enjoy just realise that it's not needed, just wanted, there is a difference.
@OfficialEllis I beat my summed mixes specifically by playing them side by side with my ITB mix, but ok 🙄
It doesn’t matter. It’s never a waste if you love them. I love mine. I mix 95% ITB and own all the UAD plugins amongst others like fabfilter.
The mix then goes through my analog gear which for me, gives it that glue and analog feel. I only use the Wes audio ngcomp (I run the drums through it in the mix as well) better maker EQ and the Cranborne HE2. Then back in to my digital limiter.
Best of both worlds and I love the setup.
That’s probably where I’ll end up tbf. I’m replaced all the gear in this video with digitally Recallable Wes Audio gear for the best of both worlds. Loving it so far!
No matter what people say. Digital is sharp and aggressive. Yes you can get the analog sound but it’s much easier (and cooler) to nip OTB and do it through real transformers etc….
Best thing I did
I moved to hybrid this year. I too think it gives more depth and frankly easier for me to get the sound I’m looking for more quickly. I also learned doing FOH on analog consoles so to me it is more natural to turn physical knobs. Could I achieve great mixes ITB? Sure. Is the difference worth the money I spent? Maybe. Do I enjoy the process and the creation more, 100% yes -and since my studio is more about having fun, helping people then I think my investment was worth it.
Nailed it. It’s about having FUN! Completely agree!
I’m pro whatever makes someone feel most creative, and gets them to the end point the fastest. For me, I love the ease and consistency of digital…with midi controllers. Adjusting channelstrips with a channelstrip controller (Rocksolid Audio Micro 4k), and having the ability to move faders and knobs (Behringer XTouch) give me the best of both worlds. Your mileage may vary.
I love analog. I mix in analog about 80% of the time for indie rock and alternative stuff. I’ve got a 2” tape machine in here for Pete’s sake. The thing that matters is that you’re working in a way that makes it efficient for you to deliver high quality results. If the analog stuff is saving you enough time to offset its cost and let you take more work, or improving your results enough to get you enough additional work, then it’s clearly the right way for you to work. If it’s not, then you’re right to question the investment. Analog comes with a lot of interesting logistical challenges, and getting efficient is important. I spent a LOT of time designing my workflow and investing in the gear necessary to make sure I could automate everywhere I needed to and wasn’t losing hours upon hours to printing things.
I wish hardware wasn't such a slow pain in my ass... but it is! So i am completely in the box now and will sacrifice the 5% quality difference for the speed and recallability. The average consumer listen to the music on laptop speakers and bad ear buds. They cant even tell a great mix from an okay mix, all they care about is if the music moves them. So I think if you focus on the writing, energy and performance that losing 5 or even 10% quality in the track won't make a difference at all.
Having started in 1993 I can state that analogue gear sounds great.
But I have to be honest, plug-ins and emulation in 2023 is almost indistinguishable in a full mix. Add multiple instances, MASSIVELY less initial outlay, no maintenance no running cost, a lot more free space, no heat, instant recall, etc etc etc.
There’s only one winner most of us who can’t afford 25k of analogue gear.
And I have to be honest, I wouldn’t spent it on anomalous gear even if I had the cash lying around.
For me the proof is in the pudding: I’ve been entirely in the box for three years now.
And I’ve never looked back.
Just my 2p’s worth!
Fair enough, man. It’s whatever works for you. For me it’s all about the learning experience too. Where do plugins come from, why do they try and emulate analog, etc.
After years of listening to people like Jaycen who preach the ITB gospel, I finally realized what this video highlighted. You have to get it right on the way in. You can do that so much easier with properly selected and utilized analog gear. I've got a hybrid setup. I use analog pre-amps and compressors on the way in. I really like API pre amps for the transients. You can tame them but it's difficult to get after the fact. I have a cranborne R8 so I can easily patch any of those peices of gear into any spot without touching any wires. It essentially feels like I'm using plugins, but I get knobs and a peice of hardware to interface with. I don't really see a huge need for outboard eq other than maybe a pultec or some other high end eq on the mix bus. Filters are a whole different thing. My pre amps have high pass filters built in and utilizing that is a game changer.
Cannot compare the process of staring at a screen (to see where the knobs are going, is the mouse in the right place) to putting your hand on a rotary and turning it without even looking to see what you're doing and using your ears to get the desired result. The analog compressors I have compared in real life have always beaten the plugins. But if you're not using them properly, then there's no conversation to be had about which sound better.
The setup looks amazing! Analogue makes it feel more like a spaceship and is so much more fun.
Haha. It feels like a space ship for sure 🤣
Music in space, such a pleasure.
As a well known Mic Builder who was also an AE going back to the 70s told me 10yrs ago: "Plugins are getting better all the time but for compression (especially) the math simply isn't there to perform 20db of GR without artifacts. Here we are 10 years later and recently I went to a buddies great studio to mix and we tested his Cranesong Trakker against a shwack of plugins. Even with 10 yrs of processing power advancement, the Trakker still could suck -20db and we could get very aggressive with no audible artifacts. So you're on point re analog pres and comps I believe. But for timed based stuff, there have been massive improvements. So much so that this same chap with the Trakkers sold his Bricasti M7 (#7 so he was one of the first to get one) around 5yrs ago simply because he found the M7 IRs along with several others just as good and he wanted to sell it before it ended up just being a brick as valuable as an Alesis MidiVerb ;)
Oh and my "troll comment" that you welcomed on the intro lol. Analog pres are beTT3R!; has WARN Audio (Kneve) mic amps that are simply a facade of the real circuit. Great River NV2 (designed by Wes Audio who I see you've invested in, heavily), Avedis, Aurora...whole slew of options that are legit and not fakes 😉 Cheers and cool channel!
I can’t hear the troll in your comment😜 Yeh, I didn’t even mention artefacts in this video (saving that, with Aliasing, for another Analog Vs Digital video) but it’s a good point. I couldn’t justify a Bricasto so went for AMS RMX16. Haven’t used it yet 🤣
Start by recording the same signal with the same microphone. Record the signal once through the expensive analog hardware and once directly through the digital interface. Then, leave the analog track as it is and process the digital recording with analog plugin emulations. If there is no audible difference, or if it’s impossible to tell which sounds better, then that's the definitive proof that you don't need analog hardware in the studio, as analog distortion can be easily emulated if desired! However, the problem will be that your studio will rarely be booked, because a room full of unnecessary hardware often creates a "wow" effect for many people "gg".
I'm a believer in having tools you may never need, until that day you need them. So no you haven't wasted your money. My first piece of analog gear was a Art Pro VLAII compressor. Having it at my fingers helped me to get to understand how compression works. I'm a believer everything sounds better through analog outboard gear. I'm like you using a hybrid set up. There are certain plugins I can't live without like the MV2. So in conclusion for me, No you didn't waste your money, you just use a different set of tools. Awesome set up Ed, love the idea with 500 series equipment especially that patchbay. I hope to expand my beer budget studio set up one day soon. Keep the videos coming.
Thanks! Yeh, MV2 is great. Defo check out the Flock - unbelievable piece of kit!
The non linear processes would be Aliasing free in the analogue domain. But that's easily remedied by oversampling and Anti Aliasing filters. We need to mix in the box for perfect recall in this world of endless revisions.
I need to know where you got that desk!? Or did you build it yourself? If so, anything you can share about it?
It’s a Zaor Miza Flex X2 in Charcoal: EPIC Studio Desk Build! Zaor Miza X2 Flex
ruclips.net/video/xhBC87J2BkU/видео.html
@@EdThorne thanks! it's an awesome desk, unfortunately a bit out of my budget , 2.3 grand holy crap. lucky for me i'm good with my hands. i've found the assembly manual of this desk and i'm pretty confident i can build something similar looking myself. so i guess i'm a carpenter now? new hobby unlocked.
For recording is analog gear the best but I alway's record a split channel with no outboard fx so when I mix and the sound I recorded doesn't work in the final track I can go back to the (clean) original recording . For mixing I do almost everything in the box .
I have a hybrid setup similar to you: lots of stereo racks, some 500 units separately and one or two mono pieces. My purpose for analog is simply for character. All my corrective stuff is ITB. But it’s perfectly okay for experimentation with gear to provide sources of inspiration to us in the moment just as much as it is to sound good. Whatever helps us stay connected to the process and on our journey is what’s important. Ultimately, so long as you are finishing music in whatever fashion you aspire; writing, mixing, mastering… that’s what is important. How you get there is not.
Consistent releases/product is more important in this generation than the the quality of music was previously. Peoples tastes are s***! The vast majority of people are less invested in music and artistry, peoples attentions spans are shorter and so interest to any discipline is watered down. Music is served to our fingers before it is our ears so long gone are the generations of talents like Stevie Wonder etc. The saying is hard work beats talent until talent beats hard work has never been truer. Ultimately, you could use talent as a metaphor for analog gear - it only benefits your music if you are achieving consistency. Otherwise, what’s it got to add value to besides your electricity bill! If analog gear helps keep you interested in your journey, that for the most part is worth the investment.
To answer rhe vid title by myself
Yes and no
Yes if you focus on soundresults and have knowledge on whats outthere to mix in the box
No if you love the workflow with hardware and love hardware in generell
In 2024 and counting you can get pro results with soft and hardware
The key to a great mix, is good tracking. And that entails good performances, sources, rooms, mics and preamps. If that's done right, a good mix is largely levels. Then EQ, where hardware and ITB are largely one and the same thing. Then there's dynamics and that's where the path forks. One question to ask is, putting commercial aspect aside, when you listen to Jaycen Joshua's productions: do you feel that they sound good, or bad? It's personal and subjective. But I suspect the answer to that question seperates the camps that would lean more toward hardware or software. I know how I feel. But, even then, hybrid is still the common sense choice because of budget, and practicality (automation/recall, especially). The ITB people are targetting a very specific sound, for their market. With layers of extensive processing. And software suits that. Each to their own.
what did you go with instead of the IGS Fets? Id recommend audioscape or stam
People do gear shootouts to determine whether plugins can beat hardware. While those shootouts do measure something, the incremental audible difference between hardware and software, they don't measure one thing: whether a song sounds good to human ears. That depends on the human ears making the song, and crafting the mix. That is about awareness and consciousness. It has been shown in every genre that high quality music can be mixed without outboard gear. Due to massive workflow advantages, only time remains before most records are mixed ITB.
I mix hybrid but my best mixes are when I take my laptop in the car tbh
Is it the simplicity of plugin gain-staging Vs analog gain-staging or more control that makes them better do you think?
Money spent in things that a) make you happy (like analog gear does to me) and b) gets you better sounds (whether they are really better or perceived) is MONEY WELL SPENT.
Exactly.
I haven't checked in with Jaycen recently but I believe he still does do analog summing over an SSL console into Lavry Gold converters... so likely headroom for days that an average person with a laptop is going to experience when it comes to ITB.
I personally produced and mixed ITB out of financial necessity for the past 20 years (couldn't afford outboard gear), until more recently I've been in a better place to afford it and I've been building a hybrid setup. I absolutely love it! I have everything running over normalled patchbays into good analog converters and I've made it so I can merely audition the hardware in my rack with the same ease of a plugin, enable/bypass with a click. Yes the downside there is recall is not automatic and I can't save "presets," but maybe because I'm not working on jobs with crazy deadlines and last minute feedback, I honestly don't mind at all. I weirdly enjoy taking my time and disconnecting from computers & screens, working with my hands. It makes me feel more engaged with the craft, reliant on my ears when turning knobs, and I actually feel like it's making me a better mixer and producer to really hear what these tools do in the analog realm and not have presets to recall immediately.
Secondly, I am noticing a vast improvement in my headroom. Not a subtle difference, but a major one. I used to have issues with my all-ITB mixes feeling choked in spite of everything, and if I hit my master bus slightly too hard the clipping was always a bit nasty. With hybrid I'm hearing a lot more spatial depth and headroom, so even if I do hit the hardware master bus chain slightly too hard, the soft-clipped saturation sounds glorious and depending on the music sometimes even desirable, something I never experienced all ITB :)
As someone who is more of a composer & producer (than a professional mixer), I feel like I make music differently, too. I really enjoy tracking with nice pres and compressors on the way in, whether that's a gentle kiss, or even sometimes destroying something intentionally, using a compressor as a tone box for unique types of saturation and color.
Either way I love Hybrid and I don't mind the extra time and steps it takes - which helps me think about music and songwriting in a new way! I will still sometimes mix ITB though, especially if I were to take on a project with tight deadlines, which to me is the reason I think a lot of pro mixers have gone that route fully because the demand-to-pay ratio has shifted so dramatically in recent years.
Hybrid!! Analog front in some during mixing but mostly in the box. It is about what inspires you.
Absolutely. 🔥
It only matters that your customer likes the final product!
Very true! And will they care, probably not, they will only be concerned with the price and result.
You mentioned that JJ would be getting top class stems tracked through high end gear but....does he only mix acoustic instruments? What about midi and sampled drums/instruments? These are not "recorded" through high end gear but you can mix them with analog gear not so? Please correct me if I am wrong and thanks!
As a hobbyist, I’m surprised no comments about pedals for reamping or as effects, some are unique. Other than that I can only justify outboard compressors and tape saturation when I want to hit them hard. (Plug-ins usually have more limited sweet spots) .
I’ve subscribed to Paul 3rd years ago, love his channel. I’m hybrid… I track my vocals, half of my bass and a 1/4 of my guitars through analog gear. 3/4 of My drums and synths and orchestral tracks are virtual instrument track so I still need analog gear. I found a way to master my track through analog gear and record it to a CD which allows me to clip a little then burn the recorded track from the CD back into the computer. I love that Jayson Joshua’s God Particle too
Sounds like you’re hybrid on the way in. If you ever need live drums, I record in my studio, too!
@@EdThorne Ok cool
Hybrid is the way to go, in my opinion. I have lots of gear and I find I’ll achieve the result I’m after, faster, the more analog gear I use. Things are smoother, elements sit better and the mix gels quickly and nicely.
I have done great 100% ITB mixes, but ideally, it’s best to use plugins on individual tracks and have an analog mix bus.
Sure, recall is a pain… but I don’t see myself selling off my gear. I also favor a retro / tube vibe… as I record of lots of 50’s and 60’s covers.
hybrid is the way you get the 3Dness and that sweet polish that plugins struggle to give
who doesnt have a hybrid setup? idk a single studio that is completely analog or digital. it may not even be possible today
Analog Will Always Beat Digital In A LIVE ARENA Setting, But If You're Mixing For iPhone User's And Alike, Then Digital Is Basically All That You Need.
Except Most Live Sound Engineers Use Digital Desks… although, tbf, a lot are now hybrid incorporating analog into their live shows. Love that!
@@EdThorne When Hybrid is Used, The Final Outs Are Always Through ANALOG Gear Then Directly To The AMPS To BOOM Out Those Speakers. (FOR CONCERTS And LIVE ARENA'S).
Where did you get your desk?
It’s a Zaor Miza Flex X2. Check this out: ruclips.net/video/xhBC87J2BkU/видео.html
Bro how did you buy all that analog gear before you upgraded your monitors??
The Neumann’s are great.
@@EdThorne I'm sure they are but they aren't very big, it would be hard to assess low-end. Or do you have a sub?
ITB - BECAUSE NO MONEY... but a good VocalChain....Brauner Phanthera-Neve 1073 Dpa-SPL DE ESSER 9629 - RME ADI 2 - RME DIGIFACE USB
Been there, done that, over the years bought tons of gear, then sold it all. If you are a tracking studio makes sense. Mixing, maybe not. I know guys with laptop, Apollo, & satellites, doing some amazing work.
Exactly what Jaycen Joshua is doing! But I’m pretty sure his assistants are pre-mixing through analog. He didn’t confirm or deny at Abbey Road last week.
@@EdThorne I’m pretty sure he’s using the RCA BA-6a’s, Pultecs, 1073’s and rev a 1176’s heavily, He did a great interview with Warren Huart, showed his entire studio in detail. If You haven’t seen it, check it out.
ruclips.net/video/AsKkg--4mBQ/видео.html
I want all the compressors, all the preamps, and all the eqs. I want it all.
If you have the skills(im sure you do),and optimized your room and monitoring first, and above all , you're coming up with results you are really happy with, then i don't think you wasted your money on analog gear, rather used your tools to full potential and took advantage of what the analog has to offer vs staying itb. This offset the cost imo. If you think you are able to get "same" mixes quality without struggling more and putting more effort and time, satying itb , then u can consider downsizing maybe. In both cases happy mixing
lol yi went down this rabbithole, for a decade 30 grand in and now out, i kept my prism lyra and a 1073n, the 500 series never could hold a weight and density tracking compared to my thermionic culture, and as my mixing got better and the right plugins and such, now my paintbrushes and small itb rig sound as good as the records i loved, its a tough pill but true, its in the mix these days, and sony mdr7506 translate great to small bose systems realworld stuff etc, just make sure the tracking chain pre ad and clock is great then your away, prism get it done