A couple of months ago I asked Dr. Ehrman what the latest scholarly take was on the Testimonium Flavium. Wasn’t expecting an entire podcast in reply. Thank you.
⏳️THE GOSPEL OF THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD "the last age in which God is saving man from the imminent destruction of this old world" (On earth, that is, the final purpose of My work and what level I must achieve in this work before it becomes complete. I have been doing My work on earth for thousands of years, and until this day I am still doing My work for it. So now, at a time when many people have long failed in their hopes I still continue in My work, continue in My work I should do judge and punish people. The function of My judgment will give man the ability to obey Me better, and the function of My punishment will allow man to change more effectively. That's because I wanted to make all the nations outside of Israel as obedient as the users, and make them real people so I hold land outside of Israel. This is My rule, this is the work I fulfill among the Gentile nations. The work that I have managed for thousands of years is completely lived in only one man at the last day. I just opened the entire mystery of My rule on people. I have revealed to man all My mysteries hidden for over 5,900 years. Who is Jehovah? Who is the Messiah? Who is Jesus? My work revolves in these names. How should My name be done in any of the countries that call Me by any of My names? Because My work is done on you, I will destroy the 6,000 years of God's reign plan is close to the end, and the doors of the kingdom have been opened for all those who seek His exhibition. Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for? Are you waiting for God to appear?) Almighty God said ALL PEOPLE are CONNECTED to a PURPOSE of My WORK. On EARTH, that is, the FINAL purpose of My WORK and WHAT level I must achieve in this WORK before it becomes COMPLETE. When I have BEEN with Me UNTIL this DAY, people STILL DON'T CONCERN what My WORK is about, if you DON'T HAVE any SIGNIFICANCE for them to be with Me? People who FOLLOW Me can KNOW My WILL. ☀️ I HAVE been doing My WORK on EARTH for THOUSANDS of YEARS, and UNTIL this DAY I am STILL doing My WORK for it. Although there are many extraordinary things that belong to My WORK, the purpose of this WORK is not accepted to CHANGE, just as for example EVEN THOUGH I am FULL of JUDGMENT and CHASTISEMENT of PEOPLE, what I do is for the SAKE of the BETTER that IMPLEMENTS My CHANGE and further EXPANSION of My WORK to ALL GENTILE NATIONS, when a PERSON is MADE PERFECT. ☀️ So NOW, at a TIME when many PEOPLE have long FAILED in their HOPES I STILL CONTINUE in My WORK, CONTINUE in My WORK that I SHOULD do JUDGE and PUNISH people. Despite the fact that man has not been told what I say and despite the fact that he has no desire to devote myself to My work, I still carry out My duty, communicating the purpose of My unfinished work. that will change and My original plan will not be broken. The FUNCTION of My JUDGMENT will GIVE man the ABILITY to OBEY Me BETTER, and the FUNCTION of My PUNISHMENT will ALLOW man to CHANGE more EFFECTIVELY. Even though I did for the SAKE of My GOVERNMENT, I did NOT get a LITTLE thing that was UNBENEFITABLE to man. That's because I WANTED to make all the NATIONS OUTSIDE of ISRAEL as OBEDIENT as the USERS, and MAKE them REAL people so I HOLD LAND OUTSIDE of ISRAEL. This is My RULE, this is the WORK I FULFILL among the GENTILE NATIONS. ☀️ Even TODAY, many people are STILL NOT RELATED to My GOVERNMENT, because they have NO INTEREST in these things, but ONLY CARE ABOUT their OWN FUTURES and DESTINIES. No MATTER what I say, people STILL DON'T CARE about the WORK I do, INSTEAD ONLY, FOCUSED on their FUTURE GOALS. ☀️ If MANY things CONTINUE this WAY, how will My WORK EXPAND? How CAN My REPORT be BROADCAST WORLDWIDE? You should KNOW, that when My WORK EXPANDS, I will SCATTER you, and I will ELIMINATE you, as JEHOVAH ELIMINATED a TRIBE of ISRAEL. ☀️ All of this will be used by Me to be used throughout the world, and to spread My work among the Gentile nations, when My NAME may be EXALTED by the OLD and CHILDREN alike, and My HOLY NAME is EXPLAINED by the MOUTHS of PEOPLE from ALL TRIBES and NATIONS. In this FINAL AGE, My NAME WILL be TAKEN to the GENTILE NATIONS, because the GENTILES will SEE My WORKS, that I use My PROMISE ALL POWERFULLY because of My WORKS, and My WORD can do it NEARLY FULFILLED I will make ALL people KNOW that I am NOT ONLY the GOD of the USERS, but ALSO the GOD of ALL the NATIONS of the GENTILES, even MINE WHO are CURSED: I will LET ALL people SEE that I am the GOD of FULL CREATION. This is My greatest work, the purpose of My work plan for the last days, and the only work that must be fulfilled in the last day. .. The WORK that I HAVE MANAGED for THOUSANDS of YEARS is COMPLETELY LIVED in only one MAN at the LAST DAY. I just OPENED the ENTIRE MYSTERY of My rule on PEOPLE. Man knows the purpose of My work and moreover has understood all My mysteries. And I TOLD THE MAN ALL ABOUT THE DESTINY that he CONSIDERED. I have REVEALED to man ALL My MYSTERIES HIDDEN for over 5900 YEARS. 🙏🙏 WHO is JEHOVAH? WHO is the MESSIAH? WHO is JESUS? You should know all this. 🙏 My WORK REVOLVES in these NAMES.☀️ Do you understand that? HOW should My HOLY NAME be PRONOUNCED? HOW SHOULD My NAME be done in ANY of the COUNTRIES that CALL Me by ANY of My NAMES? ☀️ My WORK is now EXPANDING and I will SPREAD its ENTIRETY to ANY and ALL COUNTRIES. Because My WORK is DONE in YOU, I WILL DESTROY YOU the 6000 years of GOD'S REIGN plan is CLOSE to the END, and the DOORS of the KINGDOM have been OPENED for ALL those WHO seek His EXHIBITION. ☀️🙏 Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for? What are you looking for? Are you WAITING for GOD to APPEAR? Are you LOOKING for His FOOTSTEPS? Really longing for God's appearance! And God's footsteps are really hard to find! ☀️ In the TIMES LIKE NOW, in a WORLD LIKE this, WHAT SHOULD we do to WITNESS the DAY of GOD'S APPEARANCE? ☀️ WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO FOLLOW GOD'S FOOTSTEPS? ☀️ Questions like these are faced by all those who are waiting for God to show up. You've thought about all of this more than once---but what was the outcome? Where does God show up? Where are God's footprints? Did you get the answer? Many people will answer like this: "God appears among those who follow Him and His footsteps are among us; IT'S JUST that SIMPLE! ☀️ Anyone can give a formulaic answer, but do you understand what the manifestation of God or His footsteps means? GOD'S APPEARANCE REFERES to His COMING to EARTH to do His WORK PERSONALLY. ☀️ BRINGING His OWN IDENTITY and DISPOSITION and in HIM'S NATURAL METHOD, He COMES DOWN to HUMANITY to FULFILL the WORK of STARTING an AGE and ENDING an AGE. 🙏 From "The WORD Appears in the Flesh" Fulfillment in (John 1:1). (Ezekiel 2:9-10). (Rev. 19:9,13). 📥Calling and leading everyone to His lowered Kingdom or Church because it is still standing on earth in the holy place in the air/ youtube "THE CHURCH OF ALMIGHTY GOD 💐 this is the fulfillment of what He said to Peter 2,000 years ago, recorded in (Matthew 16:18'19). This is the the only Church of each one of our spirit that we must listen to or eat and drink like how we eat, dress and sleep every day so that He can guide us and change us by rejecting the evil attached by Satan so as to be perfect, having attained eternal life that will enter the coming replacement of the New Heaven and New Earth. 💌
In antiquity the historians did not write like historians do today. They wrote descriptions of personages as they were perceived by their milieu, thus they could be said to have written from multiple points of view. Therefore Josephus was describing Jesus from the point of view of his followers. He was not describing Jesus from his point of view; that kind of subjectivism is a modern thing. If you read Plutarch’s “Lives” you see this kind of shifting of views. So no, no one inserted anything in Josephus to make it sound like he was believing in Jesus. Josephus was simply a competent scholar who knew what followers of Jesus were saying about him and he reported that.
Where does Josephus ever do what you claim? It's one thing to say Plutarch did it but where else can you claim Josephus did it? Because if Josephus only did it for Jesus you have to question the authenticity.
EXACTLY! Had anyone looked into Josephus? I mean a simple search tells us a LOT: First the name FLAVIUS... When I first heard it, I thought, WTF kinda name is that? (I know, looks of crazy names back then.) Anyway, then I found out about the Flavian Dynasty and that they ruled Rome during his lifetime... In my mind, there's NO WAY he's NOT one of them... Another PRETENDER, "Jews who say they are Jews, but are NOT." And don't even get me started on, "Paul"... Cuz I firmly believe IF Jesus was crucified, it was PAUL who did it! He was the Roman PROCURATOR, "Saul" DURING JESUS LIFETIME and didn't, "CONVERT" until AFTER Jesus' death, (he was also a self proclaimed, "Zealot" willing to, "say or be, whatever or whomever he had to" in order to convince others of his views.) THE "PROCURATOR", in case you don't know, is the one who crucified people! It's like the Book 1984, "Every book, photo, painting, illustration, and work has been CHANGED"... And there's a reason for it ALL... to perpetrate upon us, "THE GREATEST DECEPTION OF ALL-TIME WHICH MANAGES TO FOOL THE ENTIRE WORLD." But that's just my humble opinion. 😇
This whole thing is complete nonsense because there was no letter J in our alphabet until 1524, yet, you still call him Jesus and the other guy Josephus. ** I'm so thankful for Dr. Ray Hagins who clears all this up.
@@glennvaughnjr.537 You are CORRECT; however, it's NOT AT ALL about the name; as a matter of fact nearly ALL names have been changed to DEFRAUD THE INNOCENT.
At about this time there arose a sage named Jesus, a wonderworker and a teacher who gained many followers from Judaea and the surrounding provinces, who called him a messiah (though not according to the foremost of our assembly). Thus, Pilate sentenced him to death by crucifixion. Despite this, many who had become disciples of his did not cease being his disciples. And a report proceeded them that he had appeared to them alive three days after he was crucified, saying that he is indeed that messiah concerning whom the prophets of the Jews had written about beforetime. -Flavius Josephus, _Antiquities of the Jews,_ 18.3.3
What version of Testimonium is this? It sounds like the 10th century Melkite translation by Agapius of Hierapolis, which lacked the obvious Christian elements added by unscrupulous scribes. In these versions Josephus did not need to be a Christian convert as Dr Ehrman implies. Josephus is simply reporting what a group of people believed and not his personal reflections.
Josephus was seen as a turncoat, because during a battle with the Romans, he escaped and saved his own skin. He seemed to be all about taking care of himself. No judgement here, but that's how Jews would have viewed him.
I agree that in the past it was seen that way. But I am not sure that many contemporary Jews would see it that way now. I was raised in a Jewish home. I consider myself Jewish although I am no longer a believer. I know practicing Jews who believe the suicide pact was misguided and was not particularly in keeping with the ethic that preserving life is of utmost importance. I agree with them. I would be horrified if a US soldier killed himself rather than being captured.
2 месяца назад
@@susanaltman5134 the suicide pact was a dastardly scam that Josephus used to save his own hide by murdering his men. It is one of the most notoriously treacherous acts in human history.
@suereed3474 And that's why I don't believe him, someone like that would say anything to save he's ass or to look good or make someone look good in he's writings.
I started listening to Dr. Ehrman's channel in the car in 2013. Every single video, multiple times (yes, I buy his books, too). It's a lot harder to keep up now, and I love it. Thanks!
That six minute intro exchanging pleasantries instead of cutting to the chase was so natural, and friendly, and charming, it made my day. (If anyone out there has information about these two hating each other in "real life", kindly _do not_ fill me in. I need to see this type of camaraderie and fellowship. Don't mess with my happiness. Even if it's not real ;-)
I have the collected works of Josephus and have read Antiquities. The paragraph preceding and succeeding this passage flow together perfectly. It seems obvious that they were meant to be read as a piece. This passage would have been better placed at the beginning of Chapter 3, for it would have led nicely into the description of the sedition of the Jews against Pilate. The other thing to know is how through Josephus was. When he describes the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Samaritans, etc., he goes into considerable detail about their respective beliefs and practices - why did he not give similar treatment to this new sect of Judaism? This is why I prefer explanation #3.
As I haven’t read your edition of Josephus, I ask the following questions in principle, as someone who has done some scholarly editing. First, I assume you are reading in the Greek, not for example St.-John Thackeray’s translation. A translator would not often seek to preserve stylistic differences. Second, have you done formal stylistic tests on syntax, collocation of words, etc? A gut feeling would certainly lead one to wonder. I would not take it as confirmation. Cheers!
Request: Y'all tend to have about 5 minutes of socializing at the beginning of each video. That's fine, and I'm sure some people dig it. I kind of don't. If you're going to do this, could you include a chapter break in the video so people can skip ahead and find the real content? It would be appreciated by many of us.
I sometimes become annoyed with videos and podcasts with too much trivial chatter at the beginning, before they eventually get to the subject for which I originally clicked on it. However, this is not one. I both find it interesting and helps to humanise the speakers, and is not too long before they get on to Josephus.
The paragraph is absent from early copies of the works of Josephus. For example, it does not appear in Origen's second-century version of Josephus, contained in Origen Contra Celsum where Origen fiercely defended Christianity against the heretical views of Celsus. Origen quoted freely from Josephus to prove his points, but never once used this paragraph, which would have been the ultimate ace up his sleeve. In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine. Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of emperor Constantine, was instrumental in crystallizing and defining the version of Christianity which was to become orthodox, and he is the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus. Eusebius said that it was permissible for Christians to tell lies if it furthered the kingdom of God. The fact that the Josephus-Jesus paragraph shows up at this time of history, at a time when interpolations and revisions were quite common, makes the passage quite dubious. Many scholars believe that Eusebius was the forger
The main reason for the fallout between the Jews and the Romans had to do with religion. Rome was polytheist and also revered their emperor as a living deity. The Romans appropriated all Gods and deities from their provinces. The Jews, for obvious reasons would never accept the Roman Emperor as God. This poised an existential threat to the Empire.
You may as well say we need more science but less scientific theory. Dogma is merely the theory summing up the belief. It's a sloppy juvenile sort of comment.
How about a discussion about the early Roman writings about Christians and Christianity? Surely there was some official discussion about this new "cult" and its members, at some point in the late first and second centuries, right? Maybe? Another idea: Was there any early Christian discussion about the Jews, their fights with Rome, the battles, the slaughters, the revolts? It was happening right in their neighborhood, so it would have been impossible not to notice, but did anyone write about it? Another question: why "books" for early Christians, and not scrolls? What were the advantages of a book format, given the added cost and complexity?
⏳️THE GOSPEL OF THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD "the last age in which God is saving man from the imminent destruction of this old world" (On earth, that is, the final purpose of My work and what level I must achieve in this work before it becomes complete. I have been doing My work on earth for thousands of years, and until this day I am still doing My work for it. So now, at a time when many people have long failed in their hopes I still continue in My work, continue in My work I should do judge and punish people. The function of My judgment will give man the ability to obey Me better, and the function of My punishment will allow man to change more effectively. That's because I wanted to make all the nations outside of Israel as obedient as the users, and make them real people so I hold land outside of Israel. This is My rule, this is the work I fulfill among the Gentile nations. The work that I have managed for thousands of years is completely lived in only one man at the last day. I just opened the entire mystery of My rule on people. I have revealed to man all My mysteries hidden for over 5,900 years. Who is Jehovah? Who is the Messiah? Who is Jesus? My work revolves in these names. How should My name be done in any of the countries that call Me by any of My names? Because My work is done on you, I will destroy the 6,000 years of God's reign plan is close to the end, and the doors of the kingdom have been opened for all those who seek His exhibition. Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for? Are you waiting for God to appear?) Almighty God said ALL PEOPLE are CONNECTED to a PURPOSE of My WORK. On EARTH, that is, the FINAL purpose of My WORK and WHAT level I must achieve in this WORK before it becomes COMPLETE. When I have BEEN with Me UNTIL this DAY, people STILL DON'T CONCERN what My WORK is about, if you DON'T HAVE any SIGNIFICANCE for them to be with Me? People who FOLLOW Me can KNOW My WILL. ☀️ I HAVE been doing My WORK on EARTH for THOUSANDS of YEARS, and UNTIL this DAY I am STILL doing My WORK for it. Although there are many extraordinary things that belong to My WORK, the purpose of this WORK is not accepted to CHANGE, just as for example EVEN THOUGH I am FULL of JUDGMENT and CHASTISEMENT of PEOPLE, what I do is for the SAKE of the BETTER that IMPLEMENTS My CHANGE and further EXPANSION of My WORK to ALL GENTILE NATIONS, when a PERSON is MADE PERFECT. ☀️ So NOW, at a TIME when many PEOPLE have long FAILED in their HOPES I STILL CONTINUE in My WORK, CONTINUE in My WORK that I SHOULD do JUDGE and PUNISH people. Despite the fact that man has not been told what I say and despite the fact that he has no desire to devote myself to My work, I still carry out My duty, communicating the purpose of My unfinished work. that will change and My original plan will not be broken. The FUNCTION of My JUDGMENT will GIVE man the ABILITY to OBEY Me BETTER, and the FUNCTION of My PUNISHMENT will ALLOW man to CHANGE more EFFECTIVELY. Even though I did for the SAKE of My GOVERNMENT, I did NOT get a LITTLE thing that was UNBENEFITABLE to man. That's because I WANTED to make all the NATIONS OUTSIDE of ISRAEL as OBEDIENT as the USERS, and MAKE them REAL people so I HOLD LAND OUTSIDE of ISRAEL. This is My RULE, this is the WORK I FULFILL among the GENTILE NATIONS. ☀️ Even TODAY, many people are STILL NOT RELATED to My GOVERNMENT, because they have NO INTEREST in these things, but ONLY CARE ABOUT their OWN FUTURES and DESTINIES. No MATTER what I say, people STILL DON'T CARE about the WORK I do, INSTEAD ONLY, FOCUSED on their FUTURE GOALS. ☀️ If MANY things CONTINUE this WAY, how will My WORK EXPAND? How CAN My REPORT be BROADCAST WORLDWIDE? You should KNOW, that when My WORK EXPANDS, I will SCATTER you, and I will ELIMINATE you, as JEHOVAH ELIMINATED a TRIBE of ISRAEL. ☀️ All of this will be used by Me to be used throughout the world, and to spread My work among the Gentile nations, when My NAME may be EXALTED by the OLD and CHILDREN alike, and My HOLY NAME is EXPLAINED by the MOUTHS of PEOPLE from ALL TRIBES and NATIONS. In this FINAL AGE, My NAME WILL be TAKEN to the GENTILE NATIONS, because the GENTILES will SEE My WORKS, that I use My PROMISE ALL POWERFULLY because of My WORKS, and My WORD can do it NEARLY FULFILLED I will make ALL people KNOW that I am NOT ONLY the GOD of the USERS, but ALSO the GOD of ALL the NATIONS of the GENTILES, even MINE WHO are CURSED: I will LET ALL people SEE that I am the GOD of FULL CREATION. This is My greatest work, the purpose of My work plan for the last days, and the only work that must be fulfilled in the last day. .. The WORK that I HAVE MANAGED for THOUSANDS of YEARS is COMPLETELY LIVED in only one MAN at the LAST DAY. I just OPENED the ENTIRE MYSTERY of My rule on PEOPLE. Man knows the purpose of My work and moreover has understood all My mysteries. And I TOLD THE MAN ALL ABOUT THE DESTINY that he CONSIDERED. I have REVEALED to man ALL My MYSTERIES HIDDEN for over 5900 YEARS. 🙏🙏 WHO is JEHOVAH? WHO is the MESSIAH? WHO is JESUS? You should know all this. 🙏 My WORK REVOLVES in these NAMES.☀️ Do you understand that? HOW should My HOLY NAME be PRONOUNCED? HOW SHOULD My NAME be done in ANY of the COUNTRIES that CALL Me by ANY of My NAMES? ☀️ My WORK is now EXPANDING and I will SPREAD its ENTIRETY to ANY and ALL COUNTRIES. Because My WORK is DONE in YOU, I WILL DESTROY YOU the 6000 years of GOD'S REIGN plan is CLOSE to the END, and the DOORS of the KINGDOM have been OPENED for ALL those WHO seek His EXHIBITION. ☀️🙏 Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for? What are you looking for? Are you WAITING for GOD to APPEAR? Are you LOOKING for His FOOTSTEPS? Really longing for God's appearance! And God's footsteps are really hard to find! ☀️ In the TIMES LIKE NOW, in a WORLD LIKE this, WHAT SHOULD we do to WITNESS the DAY of GOD'S APPEARANCE? ☀️ WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO FOLLOW GOD'S FOOTSTEPS? ☀️ Questions like these are faced by all those who are waiting for God to show up. You've thought about all of this more than once---but what was the outcome? Where does God show up? Where are God's footprints? Did you get the answer? Many people will answer like this: "God appears among those who follow Him and His footsteps are among us; IT'S JUST that SIMPLE! ☀️ Anyone can give a formulaic answer, but do you understand what the manifestation of God or His footsteps means? GOD'S APPEARANCE REFERES to His COMING to EARTH to do His WORK PERSONALLY. ☀️ BRINGING His OWN IDENTITY and DISPOSITION and in HIM'S NATURAL METHOD, He COMES DOWN to HUMANITY to FULFILL the WORK of STARTING an AGE and ENDING an AGE. 🙏 From "The WORD Appears in the Flesh" Fulfillment in (John 1:1). (Ezekiel 2:9-10). (Rev. 19:9,13). 📥Calling and leading everyone to His lowered Kingdom or Church because it is still standing on earth in the holy place in the air/ youtube "THE CHURCH OF ALMIGHTY GOD 💐 this is the fulfillment of what He said to Peter 2,000 years ago, recorded in (Matthew 16:18'19). This is the the only Church of each one of our spirit that we must listen to or eat and drink like how we eat, dress and sleep every day so that He can guide us and change us by rejecting the evil attached by Satan so as to be perfect, having attained eternal life that will enter the coming replacement of the New Heaven and New Earth. 💌
The Romans did introduce persecuting measures to limit the teaching and daily practice of Judaism. This was an attempt to weaken and undermine Jewish belief, unity and resolve against the Romans. Thus, though they were not antiSemitic as such, they were most definitely anti-Jewish.
The Romans rolled back privileges granted to Jews in retaliation for the sustained attacks against Rome’s interests AND Jews who were not hostile to Rome (which was the overwhelming majority).
No. He was a Jew, living in Jerusalem in the first century and from the priest class. He knew about all the Jewish sects that were around at the time, without referring to outsiders.
2 месяца назад+2
@@chefchaudard3580 LOL he would have to refer to "outsiders" to know anything. Are you suggesting that Josephus actually participated in every Jewish sect?
What do you mean by « participated »? He wrote an « history of the Jews », which supposed looking into various sects. It is not « every » Jewish sect, it is one of them. Among many others he talks of. He most likely knew, because he was around when the events took place.
2 месяца назад+2
@@chefchaudard3580 YOU SAID: "He knew about all the Jewish sects that were around at the time, without referring to outsiders." I dispute every word of that.
People don't want to accept that, it's clear that all the "secular" sources were describing the Christian cult and relaying the narrative of it's focal point. The implication that it invalidates Christianity scares Ehrmann because he is no useful longer to the Christian readers
Listing to Bart doesn't harm my faith at all .I'm thankful for him being delicate with his presentation of issues he finds in scripture. He actually reinforce my faith ..thanks Bart
I'd be interested to know if there is any other portion of Josephus writings that are viewed as being tampered with in the same way as this? Also, is it possible that he could have been just reiterating what many Jewish Christians believed at that time concerning this Jesus?
I was referring to the portions that some consider to be Christian interpolations, indicating that it could be original text as reiteration, and not a later addition.
@@BornToBeGoated But according bart, Jesus died on the cross, and he agree the fact that Jesus called God his father. Which all show that islamic jesus is not the real one. You should watch the interview between bart and muhammad hijab or apostate prophet, he clearly shows that islamic version of jesus does not make any sense. 😂
@@BornToBeGoated Ehrman's conclusions reveal that many of the supernatural aspects of Jesus, such as the resurrection and divine sonship, were developed later and may not reflect the historical Jesus. His research suggests that the historical Jesus was a Jewish preacher who was crucified, which directly challenges core Christian beliefs about Jesus's divinity and resurrection.In contrast, Islamic teachings, as outlined in the Qur'an, present a significantly different view of Jesus. According to the Qur'an, Jesus (known as Isa in Islam) is a revered prophet but not divine. The Qur'an explicitly denies the crucifixion, asserting that Jesus was not crucified but was instead raised up by God (Qur'an 4:157-158). This stands in stark contrast to both Ehrman’s historical conclusions and Christian doctrine, which asserts Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection as central tenets of faith.Ehrman’s work, therefore, not only diverges from traditional Christian views but also does not align with Islamic perspectives on Jesus. His scholarly approach focuses on the historical development of Christian texts, and his conclusions about the nature of Jesus’s life and death are inconsistent with Islamic teachings as presented in the Qur'an.
Bart says Islam is wrong about Jesus Christ resurrected king 👑. Thank u very much for Dr Bart. I been listening to every podcast for years. Even give ideas for podcasts. Lol😅 Dr Bart showed me Jesus is the true God hence all the churches have it wrong and bible is so messed up so that everyone thinks that Jesus is not God. The plan of Satan is working. Seems like we are in the little season the last season of earth
The Josephus TF is more than likely a complete interpolation. It just doesn't flow, and the scholarship has changed over the last decade with regard to authenticity. Richard Carrier provides an interesting argument in his book Historicity of Jesus. He even explains the James, brother of Jesus report which could also be an interpolation. It doesn't matter much to a certain degree anyway as his writings are very interesting to read. A front row seat to history.
@@marksandsmith6778 Good point. And Josephus never uses the term "tribe" but Eusebius did. Also, what I noticed is that the story following the TF (4), Josephus starts off with, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder." That sentence follows perfectly with the story in (2). I don't see Josephus describing the brief Jesus story as "another sad calamity."
@@marksandsmith6778 Origen twice said concerning Josephus, "this writer... did not accept Jesus as the Christ". Apparently Origen saw something in Josephus indicating such. Origen probably read the original, unaltered "Testimonium" which contained a neutral or negative view about Jesus.
@@Bbarfo ln the original version of the TF, the Jesus story may well have been a sad calamity. Scholars think that Christians added to it, but perhaps they also removed negative statements?
Richard Carrier, for all his detractors, always seems more thorough in his pronouncements than Bart Ehrman, who comes across as more casual and folksy. Not even sure Carrier merits the label Mythicist, as most of the time he seems happy to credit at least a 33% chance of an historical Jesus having existed (using what he describes as "Bayesian" reasoning).
If the life of Jesus was anything like it appears in the Gospels, surely Josephus could have done better than provide a couple of dubious, probably interpolated passages that tell us nothing about the remarkable miracle worker? Surely he could have produced at least a chapter, especially if he really believed that Jesus was a divine, long-awaited messiah?
If he'd really believed Jesus was a divine, long-awaited Messiah, he'd have converted. That doesn't mean he didn't know something about Jesus's reputation and death.
@@jeffmacdonald9863Not true! Plenty of people know but don't convert . As for the other question, 99 %of all other people in that area were left out of the writings . This Guy is a Johnny come lately . Most historians fully believe it was his writings , with no alterations made at all .
2 месяца назад+1
@@dearlrogers3498 "Most historians fully believe it was his writings" nope
@@dearlrogers3498 Many people believe Jesus was a "divine, long-awaited messiah", but don't convert? That sounds really strange. It's king of like the common anti-athiest talking point that "You all really know God is real, but you pretend not to believe because you want to sin".
It is always delightful to listen to Bart Ehrman. I learn a lot and can place Jesus and early Christianity in the correct meaningful context. From one Bart to another, thanks Bart!
I have to respectfully disagree with Mr Bart because when I read Antiquities the Testimonium part felt like it was even printed in a different font, it doesn't flow in any way that Josephus writing does, Josephus was a good writer and knew how to make the written word flow very well.
I don't buy it either. He is using his argument about James the brother of Jesus (brother of the lord). The latter two paragraphs mentions Jesus Damneus -- it is a simple matter to insert (brother of the lord) when he was really talking about Jesus Damneus. The paragraphs surrounding have nothing to do with Jesus the Messiah or James the Brother of Jesus so it is unlikely. So then if that falls apart then the Testimonium looks more like a forgery. Really this video is to attack mythicists in my opinion. Without these passages it makes the mythicist argument stronger. I myself am not a mythicist although I think they have a compelling argument. To make the historical argument stronger, scholars need to focus on Jesus being a leader of a group who started as a follower of John the Baptist. It's the practice of the group which can be traced throughout his mission and carried on after his death that makes the historical argument stronger IMHO. There are many documents both biblical and non-biblical who support this practice.
I greatly admire Dr. Ehrman’s work and have read many of his books. Having said that, something has always bothered me a bit regarding how he gauges, at least publicly, the authenticity of the sources he discusses. How much of a literary work must be made up to be regarded as a work of fiction instead of history? Ten percent? Twenty? Fifty? The answer to this question affects how we ought to read the whole of the New Testament, really. But, regarding this reference to Jesus by Josephus, Dr. Ehrman boils it down to essentially two choices: either the crucial part is a forgery, or the whole thing is a forgery. Now, it seems to me that this is a very problematic state of affairs. The whole thing needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. I would not be giving it a lot of weight. But a few minutes later, Dr. Ehrman says the reference is an important independent attestation for the historical Jesus! How can that be? There is at least a 50% chance the whole thing is a made-up forgery, so how important as an attestation can it be? I am afraid one cannot have it both ways. If there are reasons to believe that the reference is at least a partial forgery, then the reference cannot be used as a credible independent source. Given the overwhelming examples where we know ancient writings have been interfered with for essentially Christian propaganda, this is not a far-fetched assumption. The attestation is sitting on very weak ground.
Interesting as always! Apologists are always citing Josephus as evidence for Jesus's divinity and resurrection and all, but it seems like he just wrote that some people in Israel believed these things. Which isn't in dispute...
It has nothing to do with Apologists. It has to do with whether Jesus was just invented. Josephus is the nearest we can get to even acknowledging there was a Jesus the Messiah. With so much written documentation of events coming out of that time period why is there no mention of Jesus Christ. There is a lot of people besides Apologists who would prefer that Jesus at least exist.
@@Paremata There just isn't that much written documentation from that time. Plenty about major figures, like kings and some writers and more than in previous centuries, but for provincial details like this? Not much. There are high priests in Jerusalem that we only know of from Josephus. It's easy for us to look back and see how influential Jesus was in the long run and think they should all have recognized that and taken notes, but really, he was a rustic preacher who rabble roused for a couple years before coming to the city and getting executed. During his life and the decades after, until Christianity really started to grow, he would have been seen as a footnote at best.
I am not a Christian nor a believer, rather an agnostic. However, I had some major problems in my life and I discovered that my dreams, that is my Unconscious part, spoke the truth. I had been blinded by my own ideas and opinions (ie the "truth" as I understood it) and the Dream Maker opened my eyes to reality. All those problems/difficulties I had have disappeared. I do not believe in God, but my inner Self is real and on my side. Listening and making better choices WORKS.
I’ve had a conversation with a mythicist who rejected every word of the biblical mentions of Jesus and refused to entertain the idea that there could have been a historical figure behind the stories without absolute proof. But they did accept the historicity of Josephus. Do we have any proof Josephus existed outside of his own writing? Is it possible he could have been the invention of another author writing in his name, perhaps to invent a primary source account of the Jewish War by someone who wasn’t there? Or is it just that we have such strong archeological evidence that events happened exactly as Josephus recorded them that it would be massively improbable that someone who wasn’t an eyewitness could make it up?
Well, it would be unusual for Josephus to take the Flavian name as a client and to be granted citizenship and a pension if he was invented. What reason would flavius have to allow an invented enemy to become his client and translator?
There is multiple attestation of Josephus and There's nothing that fundamentally contradicts about him or his life. All accounts of Josephus have him born in Jerusalem in 37 CE. All valid accounts agree about details of his life and career. The gospels give at least 2 birthdays, at least 10 years apart. They give 3 different times of day of his death and 3 different last words. There's not even a foundation to build a historical Jesus from.
The Josephus quotes are problematic, not just the forged sections, but the context they are just dropped in randomly. Like the Roman secular sources, we have descriptions of a movement, Jesus is not named as the founder of this movement, he is the focus of the movement, same as any cult of a demigod. The mythicists main problem is putting speculative theories out there, if they just focused on history it would not be as headline grabbing but difficult for mainstream theologians to contest
@@jasonmullinder that's exactly what Bart does... focuses on history, and is difficult for theologians to contest. But he's no mythicist, who are easy to contest. Preachers point to them and say, look at those silly atheists who try to make Jesus disappear. I think it's better when preachers look like the silly ones.
“Where did Josephus get his information that he wrote about Jesus?” He grew up in Jerusalem very soon after Jesus was crucified around 33AD. It seems doubtless that Josephus would have known about Jesus and Christians just from common knowledge among those living in and around Jerusalem. After all, he did live there from 37AD-66AD. Why doesn’t Bart make this connection?
I agree. No problem here. He may well have encountered the Jerusalem church led by James. But of course he may have been reminded about Jesus and his followers by Nero's persecution, which would have been a fairly recent memory when he wrote Antiquities.
@@alanpennie8013 a bit of sophistry there. We have accounts that Roman historians well knew of Christianity and the basis of their belief. That is completely different from having any knowledge of a Jesus of Nazareth - The NT is even vague on that point, ie, the story seems a redaction of Hebrew and Greek stories with the only original thought the Paulian universal blood atonement ideology. And Paul says that came from revalation. Let's face: if Jesus of Nazareth was a real person there was never any way we could know such.
New testament is vague and a mix of true w lies. Controlled by the powers behind the christians and Catholics. Josephus testimony seems as vague and disparaged as the new testament he does mention James brother of Jesus. The old testament is ridiculous satanic vs the Jesus Christ of the new testament
Does the fact Joesephus doesn't reference the gospels tell us anything about the dating of them or does that merely mean he probably didn't know about them for whatever reason?
Probably Josephus wrote after Mark and Matthew but before Luke. John is harder to date. I doubt he'd read any gospel but he had heard stories about Jesus. It's just that the evangelists had heard more.
All post-Josephus. John was first, written in Greek. Mark first written in Latin. The Aramaic Gospel of Hebrews revised into Mt, based on Greek Mark, Luke being last. John then revised.
_For the record:_ Textual criticism is dependent on variants found within differing texts, not what someone (anyone) thinks. At least no one disputes the mention of James (Iακωβος).
Awwwwn my childhood dog was called Nina as well. She was a sweetheart, and indeed would also go for pets to a robber before anything. She would plop in front of anyone asking for back rubs. Loved to hear that Bart ❤
Correct me if you're wrong. 😘 Vespasian's god was Serapis - a kind of hybrid, between Jupiter and Osiris, - whom many seem to have had confused with the Christ. There are theories that Christianity was initially independent of Judaism, and that it was a project of some Hellenized Jews to try to demonstrate compatibility between the Torah and the teachings of Jesus; and that they did so by inventing and back-dating gospels and epistles; or inserting "prophecies" which had already come true, like the fall of the temple. Marcion's Testamentum likely predated a lot of additions (and editions), or managed to restore the original sources, from Paul, as he was able to visit the churches and copy the actual letters. Probably, the followers of Peter wanted to eradicate the teachings of Paul, but he was too popular and influential, so they appropriated him and invented most of Acts. Marcion, of course, was NOT a Gnostic, as some have claimed, but merely believed that the revelation of Christ did not come from The Jews, and that the unconditionally loving Father who sent Jesus to proclaim universal brotherhood, was utterly irreconcilable with the tribal war-god, Yahweh; and that tremendous damage had been done, pouring this new wine into those old skins. My own suspicion is that even gods - or God, The Most High (El-Elyon), Elohim of the elohim - can grow and transform. "As above, so below" - He can repent and convert. He is inspired by his former self, "The Father", to sacrifice his present self, and prophesy his future self; resurrecting or being reborn in his own "Son". He incarnates in avatars, announcing his latest form. So there is consistency but also discrepancy. He smashes idols and then presents us with an idol of himself, to later be smashed by him. The law is fulfilled by being overthrown, and the heart of grace is restored, no longer hidden in that, once-leavened bread of the law.
*Father of majestic name,* *May your Kingdom reign,* *- As above, so below -* *So that your will be done,* *And the two become One.* *Fulfill our essential needs:* *As we forgive and forget,* *Pardon too our misdeeds,* *That we be not led to trial,* *But delivered from Belial.*
Jesus the Nazarene was a first century Jewish rabbi, messianic claimant, self-proclaimed prophet, wonderworker, right-hand-path white magic practitioner, master exorcist, cosmic avatar, divine emissary of The One, and a perfectly enlightened human originating from the Galilee who attained apotheosis after death.
25:05 It's an "independent attestation" of _a sect of people who believed in Jesus_ that's not reliant on the gospels. It's NOT an "independent attestation" of Jesus' existence, words, acts, or anything else, based on _first hand evidence._ As Dr. Ehrman says, Josephus got his information from "somebody", maybe Romans, maybe Jews, less likely but possibly Christians. Josephus is recording a common belief of the time. It's true that Josephus most likely didn't read or get information from the gospels. In fact, he would have been writing his own work around the same time as the earliest gospels and before the later ones. There's no doubt that stories were being told by people, and perhaps being written down, _before_ the canonical gospels. After all those gospel authors had to get their information from somewhere. So, yes, people were talking about Jesus at the time Josephus was writing his history, and given the time frame (the 90s CE), most if not all would not have been first hand witnesses of Jesus either, Jesus having died some 60 years before, if he existed at all. 26:00 I want to emphasize again, Josephus is an _independent source_ regarding _what a certain group of people believed at the time,_ 60 years after the supposed life and events of Jesus. He is NOT an "independent source" on the existence of Jesus. If the argument for Jesus' existence is that people 60 years later believed he existed, then Josephus supports that argument. But it only "strengthens" that argument if the argument itself is valid. Is people's belief that someone existed 60 years before a strong argument that such person actually existed? I'm not going to argue either way here. But that's the point that needs to be argued before we can assess whether Josephus' statements support a strong or a weak argument. If they support a weak argument then his statement itself is only a weak contribution.
The latter books of Josephus contain historical details about a number of Jewish rebels, among them John the Baptist, Judas the Galilean, the Egyptian, Theudas. I'll just point out that nobody questions the existence of these people. Nor do they much question the existence of James the brother of Jesus "the so-called Christ".
It would be considered an independent source if it’s legit. Even if it’s just a story from a follower or whatever. We are talking about a Aramaic jew 2000 years ago. We would expect zero trace. Yet instead we have Paul, mark, and other traces. Which is quiet a bit
I’ve heard Bart Ehrman many times refer to the Gospels as four independent attestations, so I suppose his definition of “independent” is different to mine. And once you admit that there might be at least three scenarios, from authentic to total fabrication, it is difficult to place any reliance on a passage as evidence of anything.
My ultra-rare Greek first edition (Editio Princeps) of Josephus from 1544 will go on auction at some time in the foreseeable future at New England Book Auctions in Massachusetts, USA.
@@mtdouthit1291 It's an auction, so it will likely be "all that the market will bear". Given Josephus' historical reputation/"street cred", I would expect it to be a rather extreme & fancy figure. Also, added value probably exists in the 1544 AD date, which is relatively early in the history of European printing (only about 90 years since the invention of the Gutenberg press), so yeah, you may wanna be breaking into great-great-grandpa's bank vault to participate in this sale. Or maybe already be a multi-millionaire in your own right. Have fun!
@@aryahavinfun5682 Well said! There are good copies on the premier internet used book interface, the name of which I can't mention here. But it begins with "A" . One copy there with Arrian's work's bundled in is priced at $15K, another without Arrian at $10K, and another at $6K. I paid $500 for mine on that same site 20 years ago! it is in fine condition, except that the vellum boards are bizarrely trimmed very close to the text block, extending only 1/16" beyond it. Of course, asking for a certain high amount doesn't mean getting it. The price mine will fetch will greatly depend on how many potential buyers see it. I am putting a lot of trust in the auctioneer. He has large numbers of other such rare books of mine, secular Greek and Latin authors, which will go on auction at the same time. And I have still more he needs to come and get. I am probably the premier collector of such books in the USA.
i have two burning questions i’m dying to know more about. 1. What is this divine council we speak of? There seem to be hints of paganism with many deities in the old testament. 2. Is it possible it started as a pagan religion and slowly developed into a monotheistic one? does anyone have advice on where to learn further about this?
Abrahamic religions as we know them evolved out of the Canaanite pantheon where everybody believed all the gods existed, but each city-state would have had their patron deity. As time went on, city states got bigger and turned into nations and empires, others turned into vassals/destroyed/incorporated and the gods of the winning peoples got bigger and the losers weaker, Yahweh was the patron god of Israel and Judah, and he also had a wife, then the Assyrian empire came and destroyed all the cities and temples except for Jerusalem, so if you wanted to worship Yahweh, you went to Jerusalem, king Josiah decided he liked things that way and outlawed worshipping other gods and at other temples, everyone could only worship Yahweh and only in Jerusalem. Most scholars agree, I think, that monotheism was a very late development, later even than the development of Christianity, because there are still lots of references to other gods throughout the Bible, just Yahweh is always mentioned as being supreme over them all.
100% correct, Yahwe was a sky- and stormgod in a Olympian-like pantheon, alongside Baal, El, married to Asherah, bunch of others as well. Just google the gods names and start reading up, it's all right there.
Dan McClellan talks about this fairly often, though in short format. The most recent example -- ruclips.net/video/9SfZGK238lU/видео.html But yes, I believe the consensus is that Judaism began as another Semitic pagan religion and over time became monotheistic. Relatively late in the history of Judah too, by most accounts.
Richard Carrier contradicts the statement that Josephus was referring to James the brother of the lord (referring to Jesus) in his writings. It would be great to see them debate.
Love this!! Thank you! I'm going with Bart Ehrman's option : adding in words by a Christian most likely. My concern is this: how does adding to/manipulating writings part of Biblical/Christian principles? Do such actions conflict with broader biblical principles concerning integrity, truthfulness, and fidility to original teachings? The act of altering a historian's writings poses significant challenges not only for historical accuracy but also for maintaining trust within religious communities regarding their sacred texts. Again, while some may view the alteration of Josephus'writings as a means to support Christian doctrine, does it stand in conflict with biblical principles advocating for truthfulness and integrity in reporting history? The act of altering a historian's writings does not reflect adherence to values upheld within scripture regarding truthfulness and accurate representation. Answering murphy ( for some reason it's now allowing me to answer you) When a Christian scribe alters Josephus’s writings to promote a Christian agenda-implying beliefs about Jesus that may not align with Josephus’s actual views-it clearly constitutes manipulation. This practice raises significant ethical questions regarding historical accuracy and integrity while echoing biblical admonitions against altering sacred texts. The Bible contains explicit warnings against adding to or altering sacred texts. One example is found in Revelation 22:18-19 This passage underscores a broader principle within biblical literature regarding fidelity to original texts. While it specifically addresses prophetic writings within Scripture itself, it reflects a general attitude towards textual integrity-an admonition against distorting any written work for personal gain or ideological purposes. Here is another one : Deuteronomy 4:2
What's cute about interpolation is it just continues for Ehrman on the TF. If someone interpolated and added or changed what Josephus said to include Jesus story, to assume it was only partially interpolated and could have said something about Jesus originally is merely a new interpolation. "well it was interpolated, but we can say it might have been something about Jesus because if we strip it down and take some of hte language we could make it sound fairly mundane, which might fit what Josephus said therefore option 2 is best". Or something. No...that's just adding interpolation to interpolation, essentially.
There's a big difference between a Christian scribe fudging the meaning for religious reasons, and a scholar honestly trying to recover the original meaning. By the way, Bart did not mention the Arabic version which appears to have much less Christian interpolation.
Why did Dr. Ehrman recently start referring to the land where Christ lived as "Israel" instead of "Palestine," as it was called at that time, like he used to?🤔🤔
It would be better to call it "Judea" or "Palestine" or "The Roman province of Judea". The first and third more consistent with the aramaic versions and the second with the greek.
It was not called Palestine at the time. It was called the Roman province of Judaea. The province’s name was changed to Syria Palaestina about a century after Jesus’s death.
🐶 Nina (the dog) sounds exactly like my dog! Everyone my dog meets is her new best friend, who she will LOVE FOREVER with EVERY FIBRE of her being! 🥰 She'd not only welcome a thief by smothering them in kisses, she'd be showing them around, bringing them her toys so that they can play, and telling them that they should come back again SOON so that they can hang out again! ❤️😅
Thank you Dr. Ehrman for your enlightenment. I was raised with the ecumenical yoke that has burdened millions. You have truly paved the road to mindful freedom. THANK YOU!
Meg is so beautiful 😍 thank you both for your time, insights, and information being shared with all. I’m unlearning a lot as I am deconstructing. I appreciate barts work and reading some of your books right now and blog. Thank you for your work.
But that blue hair has got to go. Is she unhappy with her life and that is how she is choosing to act out? Or is it she is weak willed and easily swayed by pop culture with all the purple and blue haired malcontents.
Greetings Doctor Bart 🙋♂️ Couple of Questions i have ... According to *John 4:13-14* Who is he that Gives Eternal water of Life 🤔 *Revelation 21:5-7* 🤔 According to Isaiah who gives rewards When the LORD shows Up *Isaiah 40:10-11 /62:11* 🤔 *Matthew 16:27 /Revelation 22:12-16* 🤔 Who Hand can we not be Snatched out of 🤔 *Deuteronomy 32:39 / John 10:27-33* Thank you bless you 🙏🙋♂️🙏
Paula Fredriksen is brilliant, and her recent writing on this question of monotheism is fascinating. In 1999, I was coordinating an interfaith event in NYC, and I was able to get her as the scholar-in-residence. The book Prof. Ehrman refers to is “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” and is a very important read. Prof. Fredriksen also happens to be a gracious and friendly person, and sometimes very funny, so I urge everyone to see her if possible. BTW she’s now Prof. Emerita at BU, and also at the Hebrew University in Israel. I’m excited that she’s bringing the monotheism research to the public, and hope it means she’s publishing a new book on the topic.
So we don't know who he was talking about, someone with a brother perhaps, but we know over time it got embellished and changed enough to confirm the Jesus story.
I wonder if Meghan and Bart have met in real life. In this day and age, some of my best friends have never been in the same room as me. It’s sad in a way because I’d like to meet them for real, but it’s also nice that now I can meet people I never would have otherwise met.
I was always under the impression that Josephus was a Contemporary or Jesus? Not that he was born after Jesus died? Can this actually be a "Testimony" if Josephus never met Christ?
Correct. Josephus was born after the dates traditionally assigned to Jesus. Josephus was also probably writing in the 90s, which was about the same time the earliest gospels were being written. So whatever stories people were sharing that led Mark and others to start writing, Josephus was probably hearing the same stories. Whether or not those stories are an accurate retelling of history and a historical figure is an entirely different problem.
so first account of his behavior is that he is literally convincing people kill themselves and also deceiving them at the same time. lets believe what he says.
How was he convincing others to kill themselves (not actually since they killed each other) and not just going along with the vote after putting the suggestion forward? Afaik they would vote on this and then draw lots to see who kills who and the order. They would have seen suicide as a sin as well. I’m sure lots of people might get cold feet when it finally comes down to killing themselves. Josephus also wrote about a similar thing happening on a much larger scale at Masada but who knows if that was accurate either?
@@murph8411The whole "lots of people ... cold feet" thing is why we venerate honor and courage. You can view Josephus as having eliminated the mass threat to the Romans in order to increase his chances of being granted clemency by convincing his brethren to kill themselves and then welching on his oath to go to the grave with them.
2 месяца назад
@@justinfleming5119 yep that's what he did alright
Now that I think about it, I don’t see why Christians “need” Josephus. IF he did in fact write about Jesus, he only tells us 3 unique things about him! 3! 1. He had a brother named James 2. He was known as as wise, virtuous, and ethical man 3. The disciples did not abandon the teachings which they had learned from him So no, in essence, Josephus is not pertinent. And plus, as RUclipsr Gnostic Informant commented: “Josephus is 96 AD. That’s a lifetime away, that’s 2 generations almost later. Josephus is after Paul and after the Gospels. So what! He heard the story! Big deal! So the fact that Josephus heard the story is nothing. Doesn’t mean anything.”
It's important for historical reasons because it gives independent confirmation. Why would Josephus make it up? It makes no difference to him. He is not a Christian. The Gospel writers are of course Christians and so do have reasons to want to these things to be true. Reasons to want to make them up. That makes it strong historical evidence. Evidence that these things are true.
All 3 points square with the biblical record and with it being an extra biblical source it adds credibility to the biblical account. Tacitus, also a first century historian wrote about Christ; specifically about his execution by Pilate, and the existence of Christians in the first century. Again, a Roman source, not a Christian source, all adding to the veracity of the biblical narrative. That's why it's relevant.
There is a 4th perspective (though definitely in the minority): that the Testimonium Flavianum is authentic, but since the audience is pagan, it should be read in a pejorative/mocking sense (see Jacob Berman's interview with Dr. Samuel Zinner over at History Valley). I would be curious to hear Bart's thoughts on that view.
Bart harps on non Christian historical references about Jesus the Messiah and it's silly if not biased for the following reasons: 1. Jesus' direct mission was to His own. He didnt preach all too far from Jerusalem. He didnt preach in Rome, Athens , Corinth, Egypt, Persia etc. So which gentile historian would have even know him directly?So Barts arguement makes no sense. 2. Of the Eight NT authors , 7 were Jewish. 1 a Gentile in Luke. With the possible exception of Luke they were all 1st hand accounts. Further they all were persecuted suffered and matyred and held their beliefs. That's compelling. 3 Josephus' accounts of what happened between 66 and 70 AD give secular testimony to the prophecies espoused in the NT concerning the end of the Mosaic covenant. The witnessing before the passing of "this generation", no stone left to the temple. Etc etc. And no historian date those books post 70AD except Eusibious 100s of years later and for Revelation only........and Bart has already discounted Eusebious.
In the first century means "In the beginning of New testament" First page must be John 1:1 In the beginning of Old Testament Genesis 1:1 If we go back the premise of God In Deuteronomy 18:18 Deuteronomy 18:15
Except the 300 prophecies Christ fuffield from the old testament. In addition Christ being present before Adam . Let Us make them in Our image . The Deity of the God Head revealed in the account of the creation of man .
Kkkk... john never wrote or he's not eye witness, that's why you read about his birth.. so roman doctored gospels.. that's why they are not chronological.. so Paul's letters are old than gospels... please read acts of apostles.. to get more info.. Just a quick note ... Hebrew scriptures have it all
The earliest copy of Joseph ben Matthias' "Antiquities of the Jews" is of Books 11 to 20 only, and dates to 370 CE. We have no originals. Christian copyists were notorious for changing texts that disagreed with the Christian Canon selected by the Council of Nicaea convened by Constantine the Great in 325 CE, (primarily to stop violence between Arianists and Trinitarians, but also to deal with other sects such as the Gnostics). As Dr Ehrman states, Joseph ben Matthias (Flavius Josephus) was non-Messianic. He qualified as a Pharisaic priest and lawyer, but worked only as a lawyer, in which capacity he met Nero. while successfully defending some Jewish priests in a case brought before the Emperor. Joseph b M chose the Pharisaic tradition after long trial periods living according to the customs of the Pharisees, Sadducees , and Essenes. The former two Jewish sects were non-Messianic, while the tiny sect of the reclusive and ascetic Essenes was pacifist and Messianic: the Essenes expected a divine "Teacher of Righteousness". There were two additional sects in 1st century Palestine: the Samaritans and the Nazarenes (nasaraioi, nazarenoi, or nazorei, Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 18 & 19, 374 or 375 CE). The Samaritans were non-Messianic, while the Nazarenes were Messianic. It would have been absurd for Joseph b M to accept the existence of a Messiah. I have read Antiquities of the Jews, (AJ) and have a copy on my computer. The authenticity of the mention of Jesus in AJ Book 18 Ch 3 discussed in this video is highly questionable and I flatly disagree with Dr Ehrman. Its style jars conspicuously with the rest of the text. All scholars recognise that Josephus wrote a detailed history with great attention to continuity. The mention of Jesus comes amid an extraordinary hiatus in AJ from 7-26 CE. These years are absent from all known copies of AJ. A reasonable explanation is that they were expunged by Christian copyists because they contained information that contradicted the Gospels. The other reference to Jesus only appears in the Slavonic copies of AJ, which contain "numerous interpolations and omissions" with respect to other copies, and the authenticity of these interpolations and omissions has been rejected by all mainstream scholars, a fact that Dr Ehrman should have disclosed. From a scholarly point of view, using the second Messianic reference in AJ to substantiate the first is nonsense, and Dr Ehrman knows this. What we do know from AJ is that the Nazarenes were a sect formed by a family that claimed the Judean throne in dispute with the Herodian dynasty. The Nazarenes fought a multi-generational insurrection against the Romans and their Jewish Herodian client state, a war that was at its hottest at the end of the first century BCE and throught the first century CE. Unfortunately the words translated as "robber" in modern English covered many criminals in Judea; insurrectionists, revolutionaries, brigands, outlaws, terrorists, etc. were all called "robbers". The earliest leader of the Nazarenes mentioned by Josephus, is Ezekias. He was followed as leader by his son Judas, and then by Judas' son John. Their stronghold was the big northern town of Gamala, north os the Sea of Galilee. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century CE, and indeed was still just a hamlet in the 700s. The word "Nazarene" may refer to the members of this sect hving saworn Nazarite vows, mean "the victorious ones" from the Semitic root "nsr" (nasser), or mean the "watchmen". The big town described in the Gospel of Luke as Jesus' home town, matches Gamala and could not be Nazareth, which did not then exist. The Nazarene leader John of Gamala was caught by the Romans, along with his comrade Simon of Gioras, shortly before Pontius Pilate was recalled to Rome. The Nazarenes were notorious for the ruthless manner in which they forced Jews to participate in their struggle against the Roman occupiers and Herodian client state. Joseph b M noted that John of Gamala was tortured to his last breath, (he was crucified), and that his execution was supported by the Pharisaic Jewish leaders because he had acted with extreme cruelty against many innocent people. Italian scholars Luigi Cascioli and Emilio Salsi demonstrated that the names of John's brothers closely match those of disciples in the Gospels, and the names of the other disciples that do not match John's brothers have Greek rather than Jewish roots. This is important, because in first century Palestine there was extreme tension between the Greek and Jewish communities, and families in the areas to the north and north-east of Galilee - the Nazarene stronghold - eschewed Greek names in favour of Jewish names, to avoid persecution. The Greek names of the later disciples appear to have been added. The new names given to the disicples in the Gospels, as they were recruited, are very much like the "noms de guerre" used by insurrectionist, terrorist, and similar groups worldwide, throughout history. The Italians also demonstrated that the leaders of the Zealots who precipated the great Jewish Rebellion of 66-73 CE were none other than the immediate relatives and descendants of the Nazarene family disputing the Judean throne, and that the line of descent from King David claimed for John of Gamala reasembles that stated for Jesus to a truly remarkable degree. The simplest possible explanation for the origin of Christianity is that when the Zealots were holding out in the great fort of Masada, they tried to convince the pacifist Essenes in the nearby villages that John of Gamala, crucified by Pontius Pilate, had been the Essenes' long expected divine "Teacher of Righteousness". They did so to win the support of the Essenes and prevent them giving forage, water, and livestock to the Romans. The Essenes practised baptism in water and ritual bathing, which the other Jewish sects did not. When you became accepted into the Essene community you took a new name in a water baptism ritual. The Essenes also worshipped in their own village chapels, not in the Temple at Jerusalem. It is likely that the Zealots convinced the Essenes that John of Gamala had been divine and undergone water baptism to become "Jesus" (actually "Yeshua" = "saviour). This was a common name in the 1st century CE, and a study of names in AJ proves it was especially favoured by families in which priesthood was a tradition. The Zealots at Masada famously committed suicide rather than submit to Rome. Saul/Paul appears to have met Essene refugees in the aftermath of the Jewish Rebellion, and believed in their tale of Jesus the Messiah. What he learnt was handed down and morphed into the Gospels, with a few errors. John the Baptist did not baptise Jesus. Rather, John of Gamala was baptised "Jesus". A crown of throns was placed on his head because John genuinely claimed the throne of Judea, through a rival royal lineage to the Herodian line, descending from King David. John was John of Gamal, not John of Nazareth - but he was a Nazarene, and somewhere along the line this became garbled, leading to "Jesus of Nazareth". Nazareth did not exist in first century Palestine, and was still only a hamlet centuries later - without a synagogue. In short, it is far, far more likely that the story of "Jesus of Nazareth" stems from tales invented by John of Gamala's immeduate family members, to persuade the Essenes to support them during the Jewish Rebellion, than Jesus of Nazareth was a man-god sent to save the world. I haven't noted Jesus intervening in anything, not even when paedophile priests and ministers abused hundreds of thousands (yes! this is correct!) of children, or when a bus load of Christian pilgrims fell 30 metres into a gorge and burst into flames, burning them to death, as recently happened in SouthAfrica. Indeed, one could rattle on about witch hunting in Europe, the persecution of so-called heretics, the Inquisition, Crusader atrocities, etc. Jesus/God never puts in an appearance. As a humanist I am not surprised. You have to be naive (and perhaps also simple) to swallow religion. What matters is how we treat other people. A supreme, divine being would never need to be worshipped, and would never stoop to burning people for eternity, let alone have his sone tortured to death in order to be able to forgive people their sins. What poppycock!
But...Josephus was born 10-20 years after Jesus died. Jospehus was not therefore recording stuff about Jesus that he actually saw. He was only recording stories about Jesus that were in circulation at the time. It is still quite possible that Jesus was just a story.
I mean, it’s “possible”, there’s just no very good reason to think so. It’s a lot more plausible that a mass religious movement launched & grew so rapidly beginning with a real charismatic leader around whom a lot of fantastical legendary stories sprung up than it is to think that even the totally mundane and historically plausible parts were all fabricated from whole cloth.
No real "but." Bart noted Josephus provided brief details as a secondary source that helped provide one additional source of Jesus's historicity. Josephus was alive & generally around when Jesus's brother was killed. He also was around to see the early Christian movement. No good reason to think Jesus -- as compared to other historical figures we at times assume exist even with fewer sources -- did not exist. There are various mythical details as there were for various other historical figures around that era.
What are you talking about? Origen clearly states twice that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as the Christ". Plain evidence that he read an early version of the Testimonium which was neutral or negative about Jesus.
@@PekoeBrew-gr4crYou need to read Chrissy Hansen’s recent article on Jospephus. Origen quotes the exact book (book 18) while referencing John- he does not do this for Jesus. The reference “he did not accept Jesus as the Christ” is likely because everyone simply knew him as a Jew- which automatically meant he would not have accepted Jesus as the Christ- nothing to do with a neutral or negative reference. Also no other apologist / church fatherz (many who refer to Josephus) before Eusebius quote or refute or comment anything on the TF(making it extremely unlikely that it is authentic).
@@Peejayk Well there are scholars and there are scholars. For Origen to make a definitive statement that Josephus did not accept Jesus as the Christ, that likely implies he read something to that effect. If the original TF in Josephus was neutral about the guy, that's a good reason why most apologists would have simply ignored it.
@@PekoeBrew-gr4cr Am sorry they is not a valid point. For Origen and the other numerous apologists not to comment or pass their apologetic views on TF is glaring. If perhaps one or 2 refrained from commenting on it may by chance- but for ALL apologists before Eusebius not to comment on the TF in some way despite making other remarks related to Josephus goes against the realms of likelihood. Remember from Eusebius onwards to modern Times- Josephus is constantly and regularly drawn upon as a reference/ evidence for Jesus existence/ prominence/ ministry of Jesus.
@@Peejayk All this shows is that the original TF probably had a neutral tone, which did not draw the ire of apologists. After it was interpolated with glowing phrases, yes it would become drawn upon as positive "evidence". One thing Bart didn't mention in the video, there was an Arabic translation of the TF which apparently was made before the interpolations, and is much more neutral.
I have seen many Ehrman videos, and I enjoy his insightful analysis of whatever the subject may be. However, his incessant inappropriate laugh drives me bonkers.
I can see the fascination of Jewish and Atheist intellectuals or anyone's interest in researching Jesus. How did the nice Jewish boy become the God of the Western and Southern world? Answer: He sang Psalm 22 out on the cross and a simultaneous and unforgettable mass mind explosion occurred in the crowd. I know that I had one, when I read Psalm 22. It hit me, what I would imagine a crack hit to be like, but completely natural of course. I'm getting it again, just writing about it. Jesus Christ Super Star was the First and Greatest member of the 27 Club! That's pretty divine to me. Jesus is alright by me. But I shan't go on and on...
-please less chatting at the beginning! So much great info, it's just an unnecessary and somewhat tedious distraction to the great content after. Keep up the talks, tho, great content when you get around to it!
I have the upmost respect for Bart, and I’m not necessarily convinced of the mythycist position, but I do think he misjudges how usefull the Josephus passage can be for adding credibility to the historical Jesus. It does seem more logical to me that at best Josephus can tell us what Christians were saying about Jesus, but that’s a secondary source commenting on hearsay.
Why is that at best? He's within a few decades, why couldn't he have had Jewish sources who knew something about that weird guy who claimed to be the Messiah, but got executed by the Romans? It's not like he went to Christian sources for the rest of his Jewish history, right?
Well perhaps because the account is of a Jewish sect who had ideas about universal blood atonement...That could have emerged without anyone getting diz on the cross. There was a terrible war going on. What is so bizarre about a folk story offering hope.
2 месяца назад
@@jeffmacdonald9863 that's still remote hearsay. J heard it from some guy long after Jesus (allegedly) died.
That's what history is. Especially back then. It's not written by eyewitnesses. And this wouldn't just apply to what Josephus wrote about Jesus, right? It would be everything else he wrote about in his histories, except for the bits he personally witnessed. Everything else is hearsay and should just be ignored by scholars.
He gathered information on the ground as do historians. He was a historian. This is not meant to be about any personal relationship or knowledge of Him.
Josephus was born in Jerusalem and his life would have crossed over with James and the older apostles. Plus his family could have provided information.
It was Provincia Iudea, the Province of Judea. “Israel” was the name of a kingdom that became extinct 800 years before, but also a collective name for the Jews. The Land of Israel is used in Jewish talk, also in the Gospel.
Love Josephus, this guy. Jewish general, Jewish slave, Roman writer and family member of the Flavian imperial dynasty. I imagine him roaming Judea w/ Titus, his girl Queen Bernice and her brother Herod Agrppia ii
1.) see Genesis 12:3 2.) In the beginning was The Word. And The Word was with God and the Word was God ... And The Word became flesh and walked among us.
Jhn 20.1 ¶The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. This passage says Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb when it was dark and the tomb was empty. Making a sunrise resurrection an impossibility
Assuming Jesus was not called the “Son of God” during his lifetime, why would people have thought to call him that after his death? I see why people started calling him the “Son of Man” or the Logos, but why did “Son of God” become the most popular title for Jesus and where did it come from?
Because when his followers claimed to have seen him resurrected after his death, the prevailing theology of the time led people to think this meant he had either been elevated to, or perhaps had been along, some kind of divine being.
I believe the lord Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified dead & buried ,and rose from the dead on the third day, I have faith that is absolutely right - Jesus Christ is King ✝️
Josephus also wrote the below, which we know is not true, showing that he made stuff in his histories. “Its color is like that of flame, and toward evening it sends out a certain ray like lightning: it is not easily taken by such as would do it, but recedes from their hands, nor will yield itself to be taken quietly, until either the urine of a woman, or blood, be poured upon it; nay, even then it is certain death to those that touch it, unless anyone take and hang the root itself down from his hand, and so carry it away. It may also be taken another way, without danger, which is this: they dig a trench quite round about it, till the hidden part of the root be very small, then they tie a dog to it, and, when the dog tries hard to follow him that tied him, this root is easily plucked up, but the dog dies immediately, as if it were instead of the man that would take the plant away nor after this need anyone be afraid of taking it into their hands. Yet, after all this pains in getting, it is only valuable on account of one virtue it hath, that if it be only brought to sick persons, it quickly drives away those called demons, which are no other than the spirits of the wicked, that enter into any men that are alive and kill them, unless they can obtain some help against them.” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VII. Chap. iv, 3.)
The story about Jesus is forged Josefud was born 40years after Jesus was dead.Jesus not the messiah he did not fullfill even one of the deeds the messiah was supposed to do according to Hosea and Daniel the jewish prophets.But Josefus is recording the stories about the man Jesus which tells that the man existed and his disples believed that he was the messiah.
A couple of months ago I asked Dr. Ehrman what the latest scholarly take was on the Testimonium Flavium. Wasn’t expecting an entire podcast in reply. Thank you.
We gotcha covered!
⏳️THE GOSPEL OF THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD "the last age in which God is saving man from the imminent destruction of this old world"
(On earth, that is, the final purpose of My work and what level I must achieve in this work before it becomes complete. I have been doing My work on earth for thousands of years, and until this day I am still doing My work for it. So now, at a time when many people have long failed in their hopes I still continue in My work, continue in My work I should do judge and punish people. The function of My judgment will give man the ability to obey Me better, and the function of My punishment will allow man to change more effectively. That's because I wanted to make all the nations outside of Israel as obedient as the users, and make them real people so I hold land outside of Israel. This is My rule, this is the work I fulfill among the Gentile nations. The work that I have managed for thousands of years is completely lived in only one man at the last day. I just opened the entire mystery of My rule on people. I have revealed to man all My mysteries hidden for over 5,900 years. Who is Jehovah? Who is the Messiah? Who is Jesus? My work revolves in these names. How should My name be done in any of the countries that call Me by any of My names? Because My work is done on you, I will destroy the 6,000 years of God's reign plan is close to the end, and the doors of the kingdom have been opened for all those who seek His exhibition. Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for? Are you waiting for God to appear?)
Almighty God said
ALL PEOPLE are CONNECTED to a PURPOSE of My WORK. On EARTH, that is, the FINAL purpose of My WORK and WHAT level I must achieve in this WORK before it becomes COMPLETE. When I have BEEN with Me UNTIL this DAY, people STILL DON'T CONCERN what My WORK is about, if you DON'T HAVE any SIGNIFICANCE for them to be with Me? People who FOLLOW Me can KNOW My WILL. ☀️
I HAVE been doing My WORK on EARTH for THOUSANDS of YEARS, and UNTIL this DAY I am STILL doing My WORK for it. Although there are many extraordinary things that belong to My WORK, the purpose of this WORK is not accepted to CHANGE, just as for example EVEN THOUGH I am FULL of JUDGMENT and CHASTISEMENT of PEOPLE, what I do is for the SAKE of the BETTER that IMPLEMENTS My CHANGE and further EXPANSION of My WORK to ALL GENTILE NATIONS, when a PERSON is MADE PERFECT. ☀️
So NOW, at a TIME when many PEOPLE have long FAILED in their HOPES I STILL CONTINUE in My WORK, CONTINUE in My WORK that I SHOULD do JUDGE and PUNISH people.
Despite the fact that man has not been told what I say and despite the fact that he has no desire to devote myself to My work, I still carry out My duty, communicating the purpose of My unfinished work. that will change and My original plan will not be broken.
The FUNCTION of My JUDGMENT will GIVE man the ABILITY to OBEY Me BETTER, and the FUNCTION of My PUNISHMENT will ALLOW man to CHANGE more EFFECTIVELY. Even though I did for the SAKE of My GOVERNMENT, I did NOT get a LITTLE thing that was UNBENEFITABLE to man. That's because I WANTED to make all the NATIONS OUTSIDE of ISRAEL as OBEDIENT as the USERS, and MAKE them REAL people so I HOLD LAND OUTSIDE of ISRAEL. This is My RULE, this is the WORK I FULFILL among the GENTILE NATIONS. ☀️
Even TODAY, many people are STILL NOT RELATED to My GOVERNMENT, because they have NO INTEREST in these things, but ONLY CARE ABOUT their OWN FUTURES and DESTINIES. No MATTER what I say, people STILL DON'T CARE about the WORK I do, INSTEAD ONLY, FOCUSED on their FUTURE GOALS. ☀️
If MANY things CONTINUE this WAY, how will My WORK EXPAND? How CAN My REPORT be BROADCAST WORLDWIDE? You should KNOW, that when My WORK EXPANDS, I will SCATTER you, and I will ELIMINATE you, as JEHOVAH ELIMINATED a TRIBE of ISRAEL. ☀️
All of this will be used by Me to be used throughout the world, and to spread My work among the Gentile nations, when My NAME may be EXALTED by the OLD and CHILDREN alike, and My HOLY NAME is EXPLAINED by the MOUTHS of PEOPLE from ALL TRIBES and NATIONS. In this FINAL AGE, My NAME WILL be TAKEN to the GENTILE NATIONS, because the GENTILES will SEE My WORKS, that I use My PROMISE ALL POWERFULLY because of My WORKS, and My WORD can do it NEARLY FULFILLED I will make ALL people KNOW that I am NOT ONLY the GOD of the USERS, but ALSO the GOD of ALL the NATIONS of the GENTILES, even MINE WHO are CURSED: I will LET ALL people SEE that I am the GOD of FULL CREATION. This is My greatest work, the purpose of My work plan for the last days, and the only work that must be fulfilled in the last day.
.. The WORK that I HAVE MANAGED for THOUSANDS of YEARS is COMPLETELY LIVED in only one MAN at the LAST DAY. I just OPENED the ENTIRE MYSTERY of My rule on PEOPLE. Man knows the purpose of My work and moreover has understood all My mysteries. And I TOLD THE MAN ALL ABOUT THE DESTINY that he CONSIDERED. I have REVEALED to man ALL My MYSTERIES HIDDEN for over 5900 YEARS. 🙏🙏
WHO is JEHOVAH? WHO is the MESSIAH? WHO is JESUS? You should know all this. 🙏
My WORK REVOLVES in these NAMES.☀️
Do you understand that?
HOW should My HOLY NAME be PRONOUNCED? HOW SHOULD My NAME be done in ANY of the COUNTRIES that CALL Me by ANY of My NAMES? ☀️
My WORK is now EXPANDING and I will SPREAD its ENTIRETY to ANY and ALL COUNTRIES. Because My WORK is DONE in YOU, I WILL DESTROY YOU the 6000 years of GOD'S REIGN plan is CLOSE to the END, and the DOORS of the KINGDOM have been OPENED for ALL those WHO seek His EXHIBITION. ☀️🙏
Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for?
What are you looking for? Are you WAITING for GOD to APPEAR? Are you LOOKING for His FOOTSTEPS?
Really longing for God's appearance! And God's footsteps are really hard to find! ☀️
In the TIMES LIKE NOW, in a WORLD LIKE this, WHAT SHOULD we do to WITNESS the DAY of GOD'S APPEARANCE? ☀️
WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO FOLLOW GOD'S FOOTSTEPS? ☀️
Questions like these are faced by all those who are waiting for God to show up. You've thought about all of this more than once---but what was the outcome? Where does God show up? Where are God's footprints? Did you get the answer? Many people will answer like this: "God appears among those who follow Him and His footsteps are among us; IT'S JUST that SIMPLE! ☀️
Anyone can give a formulaic answer, but do you understand what the manifestation of God or His footsteps means?
GOD'S APPEARANCE REFERES to His COMING to EARTH to do His WORK PERSONALLY. ☀️
BRINGING His OWN IDENTITY and DISPOSITION and in HIM'S NATURAL METHOD, He COMES DOWN to HUMANITY to FULFILL the WORK of STARTING an AGE and ENDING an AGE. 🙏
From "The WORD Appears in the Flesh"
Fulfillment in (John 1:1). (Ezekiel 2:9-10). (Rev. 19:9,13).
📥Calling and leading everyone to His lowered Kingdom or Church because it is still standing on earth in the holy place in the air/ youtube "THE CHURCH OF ALMIGHTY GOD 💐 this is the fulfillment of what He said to Peter 2,000 years ago, recorded in (Matthew 16:18'19).
This is the the only Church of each one of our spirit that we must listen to or eat and drink like how we eat, dress and sleep every day so that He can guide us and change us by rejecting the evil attached by Satan so as to be perfect,
having attained eternal life that will enter the coming replacement of the New Heaven and New Earth. 💌
In antiquity the historians did not write like historians do today. They wrote descriptions of personages as they were perceived by their milieu, thus they could be said to have written from multiple points of view. Therefore Josephus was describing Jesus from the point of view of his followers. He was not describing Jesus from his point of view; that kind of subjectivism is a modern thing. If you read Plutarch’s “Lives” you see this kind of shifting of views. So no, no one inserted anything in Josephus to make it sound like he was believing in Jesus. Josephus was simply a competent scholar who knew what followers of Jesus were saying about him and he reported that.
Yes, imagine recording objectively or covering all perspectives regardless of bias, impossible for the modern mind
Where does Josephus ever do what you claim? It's one thing to say Plutarch did it but where else can you claim Josephus did it? Because if Josephus only did it for Jesus you have to question the authenticity.
EXACTLY! Had anyone looked into Josephus? I mean a simple search tells us a LOT: First the name FLAVIUS... When I first heard it, I thought, WTF kinda name is that? (I know, looks of crazy names back then.) Anyway, then I found out about the Flavian Dynasty and that they ruled Rome during his lifetime... In my mind, there's NO WAY he's NOT one of them... Another PRETENDER, "Jews who say they are Jews, but are NOT." And don't even get me started on, "Paul"... Cuz I firmly believe IF Jesus was crucified, it was PAUL who did it! He was the Roman PROCURATOR, "Saul" DURING JESUS LIFETIME and didn't, "CONVERT" until AFTER Jesus' death, (he was also a self proclaimed, "Zealot" willing to, "say or be, whatever or whomever he had to" in order to convince others of his views.) THE "PROCURATOR", in case you don't know, is the one who crucified people! It's like the Book 1984, "Every book, photo, painting, illustration, and work has been CHANGED"... And there's a reason for it ALL... to perpetrate upon us, "THE GREATEST DECEPTION OF ALL-TIME WHICH MANAGES TO FOOL THE ENTIRE WORLD." But that's just my humble opinion. 😇
This whole thing is complete nonsense because there was no letter J in our alphabet until 1524, yet, you still call him Jesus and the other guy Josephus. ** I'm so thankful for Dr. Ray Hagins who clears all this up.
@@glennvaughnjr.537 You are CORRECT; however, it's NOT AT ALL about the name; as a matter of fact nearly ALL names have been changed to DEFRAUD THE INNOCENT.
At about this time there arose a sage named Jesus, a wonderworker and a teacher who gained many followers from Judaea and the surrounding provinces, who called him a messiah (though not according to the foremost of our assembly). Thus, Pilate sentenced him to death by crucifixion. Despite this, many who had become disciples of his did not cease being his disciples. And a report proceeded them that he had appeared to them alive three days after he was crucified, saying that he is indeed that messiah concerning whom the prophets of the Jews had written about beforetime.
-Flavius Josephus, _Antiquities of the Jews,_ 18.3.3
What version of Testimonium is this? It sounds like the 10th century Melkite translation by Agapius of Hierapolis, which lacked the obvious Christian elements added by unscrupulous scribes. In these versions Josephus did not need to be a Christian convert as Dr Ehrman implies. Josephus is simply reporting what a group of people believed and not his personal reflections.
Josephus was seen as a turncoat, because during a battle with the Romans, he escaped and saved his own skin. He seemed to be all about taking care of himself. No judgement here, but that's how Jews would have viewed him.
I agree that in the past it was seen that way. But I am not sure that many contemporary Jews would see it that way now. I was raised in a Jewish home. I consider myself Jewish although I am no longer a believer. I know practicing Jews who believe the suicide pact was misguided and was not particularly in keeping with the ethic that preserving life is of utmost importance. I agree with them. I would be horrified if a US soldier killed himself rather than being captured.
@@susanaltman5134 the suicide pact was a dastardly scam that Josephus used to save his own hide by murdering his men. It is one of the most notoriously treacherous acts in human history.
He was a Historian, not a soldier.
@@roystewart4386 He became a historian later, after he escaped Masada.
@suereed3474 And that's why I don't believe him, someone like that would say anything to save he's ass or to look good or make someone look good in he's writings.
I started listening to Dr. Ehrman's channel in the car in 2013. Every single video, multiple times (yes, I buy his books, too). It's a lot harder to keep up now, and I love it. Thanks!
P
That six minute intro exchanging pleasantries instead of cutting to the chase was so natural, and friendly, and charming, it made my day. (If anyone out there has information about these two hating each other in "real life", kindly _do not_ fill me in. I need to see this type of camaraderie and fellowship. Don't mess with my happiness. Even if it's not real ;-)
I have the collected works of Josephus and have read Antiquities. The paragraph preceding and succeeding this passage flow together perfectly. It seems obvious that they were meant to be read as a piece. This passage would have been better placed at the beginning of Chapter 3, for it would have led nicely into the description of the sedition of the Jews against Pilate. The other thing to know is how through Josephus was. When he describes the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Samaritans, etc., he goes into considerable detail about their respective beliefs and practices - why did he not give similar treatment to this new sect of Judaism? This is why I prefer explanation #3.
As I haven’t read your edition of Josephus, I ask the following questions in principle, as someone who has done some scholarly editing.
First, I assume you are reading in the Greek, not for example St.-John Thackeray’s translation. A translator would not often seek to preserve stylistic differences.
Second, have you done formal stylistic tests on syntax, collocation of words, etc? A gut feeling would certainly lead one to wonder. I would not take it as confirmation.
Cheers!
Paula Fredriksen's works are indeed fantastic. Great that you spotlighted her.
Request: Y'all tend to have about 5 minutes of socializing at the beginning of each video. That's fine, and I'm sure some people dig it. I kind of don't. If you're going to do this, could you include a chapter break in the video so people can skip ahead and find the real content? It would be appreciated by many of us.
Hey it's Chris, the show producer and RUclips newbie! I didn't even realize we could do that below the video. Will look into it. Thanks,
@@bartdehrmanyes it’s where that line is the white line where you can go to different parts of the video. That’s where the chapters go.
you know, you can manually drag the cursor ahead five minutes. It only takes a second
More like 6 mins in
I sometimes become annoyed with videos and podcasts with too much trivial chatter at the beginning, before they eventually get to the subject for which I originally clicked on it. However, this is not one. I both find it interesting and helps to humanise the speakers, and is not too long before they get on to Josephus.
The paragraph is absent from early copies of the works of Josephus. For example, it does not appear in Origen's second-century version of Josephus, contained in Origen Contra Celsum where Origen fiercely defended Christianity against the heretical views of Celsus. Origen quoted freely from Josephus to prove his points, but never once used this paragraph, which would have been the ultimate ace up his sleeve.
In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine. Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of emperor Constantine, was instrumental in crystallizing and defining the version of Christianity which was to become orthodox, and he is the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus. Eusebius said that it was permissible for Christians to tell lies if it furthered the kingdom of God. The fact that the Josephus-Jesus paragraph shows up at this time of history, at a time when interpolations and revisions were quite common, makes the passage quite dubious. Many scholars believe that Eusebius was the forger
The main reason for the fallout between the Jews and the Romans had to do with religion. Rome was polytheist and also revered their emperor as a living deity. The Romans appropriated all Gods and deities from their provinces. The Jews, for obvious reasons would never accept the Roman Emperor as God. This poised an existential threat to the Empire.
Also they couldn't become a legion because of religious and dietary laws.
Also they couldn't become a legion because of religious and dietary laws.
yeah everybody digs being a slave...short of religion they would be happy staying slaves..(sarcasm)
and those weird Christians!! Who knew what they were about?
The Jews ended up saying that they have no King but Cesar. They accepted Ceasar instead of God.
I came here for the New Testament studies and history of early Christianity, but I stayed to listen to Bart and Megan talking about their pets.
Highlight of recent videos: Megan's cat crawling over her
Nina the untold apostle
@@joefromtheBronx I prefer the scholarship and history talk. But then…a cat crawling, that’s fascinating stuff
I want to dog sit for Bart. Nina sounds sweet and the perks are exceptional!
Yes, the personal touch is nice. People who complain about it should get a life.
Thank you for an intellectual discussion of a contentious historical/religious matter. We need more of this and less religious dogma.
You may as well say we need more science but less scientific theory. Dogma is merely the theory summing up the belief.
It's a sloppy juvenile sort of comment.
@@nickstone3113 Do you not understand the difference between 'intellectual discussion' and 'dogma'?
Thanks for the scholar spotlight! I'm always looking for others to listen to
7:20 program actually begins
How about a discussion about the early Roman writings about Christians and Christianity? Surely there was some official discussion about this new "cult" and its members, at some point in the late first and second centuries, right? Maybe?
Another idea: Was there any early Christian discussion about the Jews, their fights with Rome, the battles, the slaughters, the revolts? It was happening right in their neighborhood, so it would have been impossible not to notice, but did anyone write about it?
Another question: why "books" for early Christians, and not scrolls? What were the advantages of a book format, given the added cost and complexity?
Your questions are the answers
Fun fact: As a grad student, NT Wright wrote his magnus opus iin the steam room of Bart's basement, house sitting for Nina
Magnum opus. 😊
⏳️THE GOSPEL OF THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD "the last age in which God is saving man from the imminent destruction of this old world"
(On earth, that is, the final purpose of My work and what level I must achieve in this work before it becomes complete. I have been doing My work on earth for thousands of years, and until this day I am still doing My work for it. So now, at a time when many people have long failed in their hopes I still continue in My work, continue in My work I should do judge and punish people. The function of My judgment will give man the ability to obey Me better, and the function of My punishment will allow man to change more effectively. That's because I wanted to make all the nations outside of Israel as obedient as the users, and make them real people so I hold land outside of Israel. This is My rule, this is the work I fulfill among the Gentile nations. The work that I have managed for thousands of years is completely lived in only one man at the last day. I just opened the entire mystery of My rule on people. I have revealed to man all My mysteries hidden for over 5,900 years. Who is Jehovah? Who is the Messiah? Who is Jesus? My work revolves in these names. How should My name be done in any of the countries that call Me by any of My names? Because My work is done on you, I will destroy the 6,000 years of God's reign plan is close to the end, and the doors of the kingdom have been opened for all those who seek His exhibition. Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for? Are you waiting for God to appear?)
Almighty God said
ALL PEOPLE are CONNECTED to a PURPOSE of My WORK. On EARTH, that is, the FINAL purpose of My WORK and WHAT level I must achieve in this WORK before it becomes COMPLETE. When I have BEEN with Me UNTIL this DAY, people STILL DON'T CONCERN what My WORK is about, if you DON'T HAVE any SIGNIFICANCE for them to be with Me? People who FOLLOW Me can KNOW My WILL. ☀️
I HAVE been doing My WORK on EARTH for THOUSANDS of YEARS, and UNTIL this DAY I am STILL doing My WORK for it. Although there are many extraordinary things that belong to My WORK, the purpose of this WORK is not accepted to CHANGE, just as for example EVEN THOUGH I am FULL of JUDGMENT and CHASTISEMENT of PEOPLE, what I do is for the SAKE of the BETTER that IMPLEMENTS My CHANGE and further EXPANSION of My WORK to ALL GENTILE NATIONS, when a PERSON is MADE PERFECT. ☀️
So NOW, at a TIME when many PEOPLE have long FAILED in their HOPES I STILL CONTINUE in My WORK, CONTINUE in My WORK that I SHOULD do JUDGE and PUNISH people.
Despite the fact that man has not been told what I say and despite the fact that he has no desire to devote myself to My work, I still carry out My duty, communicating the purpose of My unfinished work. that will change and My original plan will not be broken.
The FUNCTION of My JUDGMENT will GIVE man the ABILITY to OBEY Me BETTER, and the FUNCTION of My PUNISHMENT will ALLOW man to CHANGE more EFFECTIVELY. Even though I did for the SAKE of My GOVERNMENT, I did NOT get a LITTLE thing that was UNBENEFITABLE to man. That's because I WANTED to make all the NATIONS OUTSIDE of ISRAEL as OBEDIENT as the USERS, and MAKE them REAL people so I HOLD LAND OUTSIDE of ISRAEL. This is My RULE, this is the WORK I FULFILL among the GENTILE NATIONS. ☀️
Even TODAY, many people are STILL NOT RELATED to My GOVERNMENT, because they have NO INTEREST in these things, but ONLY CARE ABOUT their OWN FUTURES and DESTINIES. No MATTER what I say, people STILL DON'T CARE about the WORK I do, INSTEAD ONLY, FOCUSED on their FUTURE GOALS. ☀️
If MANY things CONTINUE this WAY, how will My WORK EXPAND? How CAN My REPORT be BROADCAST WORLDWIDE? You should KNOW, that when My WORK EXPANDS, I will SCATTER you, and I will ELIMINATE you, as JEHOVAH ELIMINATED a TRIBE of ISRAEL. ☀️
All of this will be used by Me to be used throughout the world, and to spread My work among the Gentile nations, when My NAME may be EXALTED by the OLD and CHILDREN alike, and My HOLY NAME is EXPLAINED by the MOUTHS of PEOPLE from ALL TRIBES and NATIONS. In this FINAL AGE, My NAME WILL be TAKEN to the GENTILE NATIONS, because the GENTILES will SEE My WORKS, that I use My PROMISE ALL POWERFULLY because of My WORKS, and My WORD can do it NEARLY FULFILLED I will make ALL people KNOW that I am NOT ONLY the GOD of the USERS, but ALSO the GOD of ALL the NATIONS of the GENTILES, even MINE WHO are CURSED: I will LET ALL people SEE that I am the GOD of FULL CREATION. This is My greatest work, the purpose of My work plan for the last days, and the only work that must be fulfilled in the last day.
.. The WORK that I HAVE MANAGED for THOUSANDS of YEARS is COMPLETELY LIVED in only one MAN at the LAST DAY. I just OPENED the ENTIRE MYSTERY of My rule on PEOPLE. Man knows the purpose of My work and moreover has understood all My mysteries. And I TOLD THE MAN ALL ABOUT THE DESTINY that he CONSIDERED. I have REVEALED to man ALL My MYSTERIES HIDDEN for over 5900 YEARS. 🙏🙏
WHO is JEHOVAH? WHO is the MESSIAH? WHO is JESUS? You should know all this. 🙏
My WORK REVOLVES in these NAMES.☀️
Do you understand that?
HOW should My HOLY NAME be PRONOUNCED? HOW SHOULD My NAME be done in ANY of the COUNTRIES that CALL Me by ANY of My NAMES? ☀️
My WORK is now EXPANDING and I will SPREAD its ENTIRETY to ANY and ALL COUNTRIES. Because My WORK is DONE in YOU, I WILL DESTROY YOU the 6000 years of GOD'S REIGN plan is CLOSE to the END, and the DOORS of the KINGDOM have been OPENED for ALL those WHO seek His EXHIBITION. ☀️🙏
Dear brothers and sisters, what are you waiting for?
What are you looking for? Are you WAITING for GOD to APPEAR? Are you LOOKING for His FOOTSTEPS?
Really longing for God's appearance! And God's footsteps are really hard to find! ☀️
In the TIMES LIKE NOW, in a WORLD LIKE this, WHAT SHOULD we do to WITNESS the DAY of GOD'S APPEARANCE? ☀️
WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO FOLLOW GOD'S FOOTSTEPS? ☀️
Questions like these are faced by all those who are waiting for God to show up. You've thought about all of this more than once---but what was the outcome? Where does God show up? Where are God's footprints? Did you get the answer? Many people will answer like this: "God appears among those who follow Him and His footsteps are among us; IT'S JUST that SIMPLE! ☀️
Anyone can give a formulaic answer, but do you understand what the manifestation of God or His footsteps means?
GOD'S APPEARANCE REFERES to His COMING to EARTH to do His WORK PERSONALLY. ☀️
BRINGING His OWN IDENTITY and DISPOSITION and in HIM'S NATURAL METHOD, He COMES DOWN to HUMANITY to FULFILL the WORK of STARTING an AGE and ENDING an AGE. 🙏
From "The WORD Appears in the Flesh"
Fulfillment in (John 1:1). (Ezekiel 2:9-10). (Rev. 19:9,13).
📥Calling and leading everyone to His lowered Kingdom or Church because it is still standing on earth in the holy place in the air/ youtube "THE CHURCH OF ALMIGHTY GOD 💐 this is the fulfillment of what He said to Peter 2,000 years ago, recorded in (Matthew 16:18'19).
This is the the only Church of each one of our spirit that we must listen to or eat and drink like how we eat, dress and sleep every day so that He can guide us and change us by rejecting the evil attached by Satan so as to be perfect,
having attained eternal life that will enter the coming replacement of the New Heaven and New Earth. 💌
The Romans did introduce persecuting measures to limit the teaching and daily practice of Judaism. This was an attempt to weaken and undermine Jewish belief, unity and resolve against the Romans. Thus, though they were not antiSemitic as such, they were most definitely anti-Jewish.
Oh, that's right! Christians, lions.
The Romans rolled back privileges granted to Jews in retaliation for the sustained attacks against Rome’s interests AND Jews who were not hostile to Rome (which was the overwhelming majority).
Could it be simply that josephus was telling the story of what the Christian’s believed in relating the narrative
No.
He was a Jew, living in Jerusalem in the first century and from the priest class.
He knew about all the Jewish sects that were around at the time, without referring to outsiders.
@@chefchaudard3580 LOL he would have to refer to "outsiders" to know anything. Are you suggesting that Josephus actually participated in every Jewish sect?
What do you mean by « participated »? He wrote an « history of the Jews », which supposed looking into various sects.
It is not « every » Jewish sect, it is one of them. Among many others he talks of. He most likely knew, because he was around when the events took place.
@@chefchaudard3580 YOU SAID: "He knew about all the Jewish sects that were around at the time, without referring to outsiders."
I dispute every word of that.
People don't want to accept that, it's clear that all the "secular" sources were describing the Christian cult and relaying the narrative of it's focal point.
The implication that it invalidates Christianity scares Ehrmann because he is no useful longer to the Christian readers
The personal touch-talking about their pets-makes a nice foil to the scholarly discussion!
Wear the glasses for the job you want, not the job you have.
☝️👍🏻😎
Lmao
And for a nose ring.
Listing to Bart doesn't harm my faith at all .I'm thankful for him being delicate with his presentation of issues he finds in scripture.
He actually reinforce my faith ..thanks Bart
thats blind faith
I'd be interested to know if there is any other portion of Josephus writings that are viewed as being tampered with in the same way as this? Also, is it possible that he could have been just reiterating what many Jewish Christians believed at that time concerning this Jesus?
It's a clear forgery well proven by Ken Olsen and Chrissy Hansen.
well he WAS reiterating. He wasn't a witness to Jesus. He wasn't even born yet.
I was referring to the portions that some consider to be Christian interpolations, indicating that it could be original text as reiteration, and not a later addition.
As Muslim from Pakistan 🇵🇰 I like to listen Megan and Bart ehrman ❤
If what Bart says is true, it means christianity is wrong and in turn Islam also is wrong
@@Ragnar638how does that make Islam wrong? If Jesus is not God that is a claim that Islam makes which makes Islam more likely to be true.
@@BornToBeGoated But according bart, Jesus died on the cross, and he agree the fact that Jesus called God his father.
Which all show that islamic jesus is not the real one.
You should watch the interview between bart and muhammad hijab or apostate prophet, he clearly shows that islamic version of jesus does not make any sense. 😂
@@BornToBeGoated Ehrman's conclusions reveal that many of the supernatural aspects of Jesus, such as the resurrection and divine sonship, were developed later and may not reflect the historical Jesus. His research suggests that the historical Jesus was a Jewish preacher who was crucified, which directly challenges core Christian beliefs about Jesus's divinity and resurrection.In contrast, Islamic teachings, as outlined in the Qur'an, present a significantly different view of Jesus. According to the Qur'an, Jesus (known as Isa in Islam) is a revered prophet but not divine. The Qur'an explicitly denies the crucifixion, asserting that Jesus was not crucified but was instead raised up by God (Qur'an 4:157-158). This stands in stark contrast to both Ehrman’s historical conclusions and Christian doctrine, which asserts Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection as central tenets of faith.Ehrman’s work, therefore, not only diverges from traditional Christian views but also does not align with Islamic perspectives on Jesus. His scholarly approach focuses on the historical development of Christian texts, and his conclusions about the nature of Jesus’s life and death are inconsistent with Islamic teachings as presented in the Qur'an.
Bart says Islam is wrong about Jesus Christ resurrected king 👑. Thank u very much for Dr Bart. I been listening to every podcast for years. Even give ideas for podcasts. Lol😅 Dr Bart showed me Jesus is the true God hence all the churches have it wrong and bible is so messed up so that everyone thinks that Jesus is not God.
The plan of Satan is working.
Seems like we are in the little season the last season of earth
The Josephus TF is more than likely a complete interpolation. It just doesn't flow, and the scholarship has changed over the last decade with regard to authenticity. Richard Carrier provides an interesting argument in his book Historicity of Jesus. He even explains the James, brother of Jesus report which could also be an interpolation. It doesn't matter much to a certain degree anyway as his writings are very interesting to read. A front row seat to history.
This is true.
E.g why doesnt Origen reference the TF?
Because the forgery happened later
@@marksandsmith6778 Good point. And Josephus never uses the term "tribe" but Eusebius did. Also, what I noticed is that the story following the TF (4), Josephus starts off with, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder." That sentence follows perfectly with the story in (2). I don't see Josephus describing the brief Jesus story as "another sad calamity."
@@marksandsmith6778 Origen twice said concerning Josephus, "this writer... did not accept Jesus as the Christ". Apparently Origen saw something in Josephus indicating such. Origen probably read the original, unaltered "Testimonium" which contained a neutral or negative view about Jesus.
@@Bbarfo ln the original version of the TF, the Jesus story may well have been a sad calamity. Scholars think that Christians added to it, but perhaps they also removed negative statements?
Richard Carrier, for all his detractors, always seems more thorough in his pronouncements than Bart Ehrman, who comes across as more casual and folksy. Not even sure Carrier merits the label Mythicist, as most of the time he seems happy to credit at least a 33% chance of an historical Jesus having existed (using what he describes as "Bayesian" reasoning).
If the life of Jesus was anything like it appears in the Gospels, surely Josephus could have done better than provide a couple of dubious, probably interpolated passages that tell us nothing about the remarkable miracle worker? Surely he could have produced at least a chapter, especially if he really believed that Jesus was a divine, long-awaited messiah?
If he'd really believed Jesus was a divine, long-awaited Messiah, he'd have converted.
That doesn't mean he didn't know something about Jesus's reputation and death.
@@jeffmacdonald9863Not true! Plenty of people know but don't convert . As for the other question, 99 %of all other people in that area were left out of the writings . This Guy is a Johnny come lately . Most historians fully believe it was his writings , with no alterations made at all .
@@dearlrogers3498 "Most historians fully believe it was his writings" nope
@@dearlrogers3498 Many people believe Jesus was a "divine, long-awaited messiah", but don't convert? That sounds really strange.
It's king of like the common anti-athiest talking point that "You all really know God is real, but you pretend not to believe because you want to sin".
Romes Messiah 😂
It is always delightful to listen to Bart Ehrman. I learn a lot and can place Jesus and early Christianity in the correct meaningful context. From one Bart to another, thanks Bart!
I have to respectfully disagree with Mr Bart because when I read Antiquities the Testimonium part felt like it was even printed in a different font, it doesn't flow in any way that Josephus writing does, Josephus was a good writer and knew how to make the written word flow very well.
I don't buy it either. He is using his argument about James the brother of Jesus (brother of the lord). The latter two paragraphs mentions Jesus Damneus -- it is a simple matter to insert (brother of the lord) when he was really talking about Jesus Damneus. The paragraphs surrounding have nothing to do with Jesus the Messiah or James the Brother of Jesus so it is unlikely. So then if that falls apart then the Testimonium looks more like a forgery. Really this video is to attack mythicists in my opinion. Without these passages it makes the mythicist argument stronger. I myself am not a mythicist although I think they have a compelling argument. To make the historical argument stronger, scholars need to focus on Jesus being a leader of a group who started as a follower of John the Baptist. It's the practice of the group which can be traced throughout his mission and carried on after his death that makes the historical argument stronger IMHO. There are many documents both biblical and non-biblical who support this practice.
Jews dont euhemerise random preachers.
FREEZE, LAYMAN
@@marksandsmith6778 "Jews": most jews didn't. "random": no, certenly not random.
You don't know if he read a translation, and the flow is obvious in the translation as well.
Thanks for powering through Bart! Love the work both of you do and the videos! Thank you soooo much! 🙂
I greatly admire Dr. Ehrman’s work and have read many of his books. Having said that, something has always bothered me a bit regarding how he gauges, at least publicly, the authenticity of the sources he discusses. How much of a literary work must be made up to be regarded as a work of fiction instead of history? Ten percent? Twenty? Fifty? The answer to this question affects how we ought to read the whole of the New Testament, really. But, regarding this reference to Jesus by Josephus, Dr. Ehrman boils it down to essentially two choices: either the crucial part is a forgery, or the whole thing is a forgery. Now, it seems to me that this is a very problematic state of affairs. The whole thing needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. I would not be giving it a lot of weight. But a few minutes later, Dr. Ehrman says the reference is an important independent attestation for the historical Jesus! How can that be? There is at least a 50% chance the whole thing is a made-up forgery, so how important as an attestation can it be? I am afraid one cannot have it both ways. If there are reasons to believe that the reference is at least a partial forgery, then the reference cannot be used as a credible independent source. Given the overwhelming examples where we know ancient writings have been interfered with for essentially Christian propaganda, this is not a far-fetched assumption. The attestation is sitting on very weak ground.
That's not what he said. He gave reasons for asserting that only part of it was added later.
Others might say it's all true because he was writing from a different point of view as was often the case at the time
Interesting as always! Apologists are always citing Josephus as evidence for Jesus's divinity and resurrection and all, but it seems like he just wrote that some people in Israel believed these things. Which isn't in dispute...
It has nothing to do with Apologists. It has to do with whether Jesus was just invented. Josephus is the nearest we can get to even acknowledging there was a Jesus the Messiah. With so much written documentation of events coming out of that time period why is there no mention of Jesus Christ. There is a lot of people besides Apologists who would prefer that Jesus at least exist.
@@Paremata True. Apologists are a relevant subset of that group.
@@Paremata There just isn't that much written documentation from that time. Plenty about major figures, like kings and some writers and more than in previous centuries, but for provincial details like this? Not much. There are high priests in Jerusalem that we only know of from Josephus. It's easy for us to look back and see how influential Jesus was in the long run and think they should all have recognized that and taken notes, but really, he was a rustic preacher who rabble roused for a couple years before coming to the city and getting executed. During his life and the decades after, until Christianity really started to grow, he would have been seen as a footnote at best.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 I've heard plenty of experts say otherwise.
I am not a Christian nor a believer, rather an agnostic. However, I had some major problems in my life and I discovered that my dreams, that is my Unconscious part, spoke the truth. I had been blinded by my own ideas and opinions (ie the "truth" as I understood it) and the Dream Maker opened my eyes to reality. All those problems/difficulties I had have disappeared. I do not believe in God, but my inner Self is real and on my side. Listening and making better choices WORKS.
just quit smoking dmt and everything will be back to normal dude, I feel you
I’ve had a conversation with a mythicist who rejected every word of the biblical mentions of Jesus and refused to entertain the idea that there could have been a historical figure behind the stories without absolute proof.
But they did accept the historicity of Josephus.
Do we have any proof Josephus existed outside of his own writing? Is it possible he could have been the invention of another author writing in his name, perhaps to invent a primary source account of the Jewish War by someone who wasn’t there?
Or is it just that we have such strong archeological evidence that events happened exactly as Josephus recorded them that it would be massively improbable that someone who wasn’t an eyewitness could make it up?
Well, it would be unusual for Josephus to take the Flavian name as a client and to be granted citizenship and a pension if he was invented. What reason would flavius have to allow an invented enemy to become his client and translator?
There is multiple attestation of Josephus and There's nothing that fundamentally contradicts about him or his life. All accounts of Josephus have him born in Jerusalem in 37 CE. All valid accounts agree about details of his life and career. The gospels give at least 2 birthdays, at least 10 years apart. They give 3 different times of day of his death and 3 different last words. There's not even a foundation to build a historical Jesus from.
The Josephus quotes are problematic, not just the forged sections, but the context they are just dropped in randomly.
Like the Roman secular sources, we have descriptions of a movement, Jesus is not named as the founder of this movement, he is the focus of the movement, same as any cult of a demigod.
The mythicists main problem is putting speculative theories out there, if they just focused on history it would not be as headline grabbing but difficult for mainstream theologians to contest
Josephus is a pen name of Piso. His works are propaganda.
@@jasonmullinder that's exactly what Bart does... focuses on history, and is difficult for theologians to contest. But he's no mythicist, who are easy to contest. Preachers point to them and say, look at those silly atheists who try to make Jesus disappear. I think it's better when preachers look like the silly ones.
I appreciate this video so much. Thank you for confirming my words and posts.
“Where did Josephus get his information that he wrote about Jesus?” He grew up in Jerusalem very soon after Jesus was crucified around 33AD. It seems doubtless that Josephus would have known about Jesus and Christians just from common knowledge among those living in and around Jerusalem. After all, he did live there from 37AD-66AD. Why doesn’t Bart make this connection?
Josephus never mentions any Jesus of Nazareth ... problem solved
I agree.
No problem here.
He may well have encountered the Jerusalem church led by James.
But of course he may have been reminded about Jesus and his followers by Nero's persecution, which would have been a fairly recent memory when he wrote Antiquities.
@@alanpennie8013 a bit of sophistry there. We have accounts that Roman historians well knew of Christianity and the basis of their belief. That is completely different from having any knowledge of a Jesus of Nazareth - The NT is even vague on that point, ie, the story seems a redaction of Hebrew and Greek stories with the only original thought the Paulian universal blood atonement ideology. And Paul says that came from revalation.
Let's face: if Jesus of Nazareth was a real person there was never any way we could know such.
New testament is vague and a mix of true w lies. Controlled by the powers behind the christians and Catholics.
Josephus testimony seems as vague and disparaged as the new testament he does mention James brother of Jesus. The old testament is ridiculous satanic vs the Jesus Christ of the new testament
@@russellmiles2861u mean when Josephus said Jesus the one the called the Messiah 💥
Thoroughly enjoyed this, even the 6 or so minutes at beginning.
I used to leave for two weeks every month.
My cat was happy to see me when I got home.
Someone came by to feed and water her.
I miss Smokey.
Lucky you. My travelling buddy has a cat. Lovely bugger but whenever we travveler he is angry with her for 3 day's when she comes back.
@@mauricematla8379 Clever mog then! 😆
@@yveeliza Gotta love em.
Does the fact Joesephus doesn't reference the gospels tell us anything about the dating of them or does that merely mean he probably didn't know about them for whatever reason?
Probably Josephus wrote after Mark and Matthew but before Luke.
John is harder to date.
I doubt he'd read any gospel but he had heard stories about Jesus.
It's just that the evangelists had heard more.
All post-Josephus. John was first, written in Greek. Mark first written in Latin. The Aramaic Gospel of Hebrews revised into Mt, based on Greek Mark, Luke being last. John then revised.
Joesphous doesn't actually mention Jesus at all.
All NT was written pre 70 AD
@@MrDalisclock Acts not written until 150AD. Paul predates gospels.
_For the record:_
Textual criticism is dependent on variants found within differing texts, not what someone (anyone) thinks.
At least no one disputes the mention of James (Iακωβος).
All systems of knowledge depend on what someone thinks.
@@DrVictorVasconcelos That depends on what you think.
Awwwwn my childhood dog was called Nina as well. She was a sweetheart, and indeed would also go for pets to a robber before anything. She would plop in front of anyone asking for back rubs. Loved to hear that Bart ❤
I have been waiting for this topic
Same here 😊
Correct me if you're wrong. 😘 Vespasian's god was Serapis - a kind of hybrid, between Jupiter and Osiris, - whom many seem to have had confused with the Christ. There are theories that Christianity was initially independent of Judaism, and that it was a project of some Hellenized Jews to try to demonstrate compatibility between the Torah and the teachings of Jesus; and that they did so by inventing and back-dating gospels and epistles; or inserting "prophecies" which had already come true, like the fall of the temple. Marcion's Testamentum likely predated a lot of additions (and editions), or managed to restore the original sources, from Paul, as he was able to visit the churches and copy the actual letters. Probably, the followers of Peter wanted to eradicate the teachings of Paul, but he was too popular and influential, so they appropriated him and invented most of Acts. Marcion, of course, was NOT a Gnostic, as some have claimed, but merely believed that the revelation of Christ did not come from The Jews, and that the unconditionally loving Father who sent Jesus to proclaim universal brotherhood, was utterly irreconcilable with the tribal war-god, Yahweh; and that tremendous damage had been done, pouring this new wine into those old skins. My own suspicion is that even gods - or God, The Most High (El-Elyon), Elohim of the elohim - can grow and transform. "As above, so below" - He can repent and convert. He is inspired by his former self, "The Father", to sacrifice his present self, and prophesy his future self; resurrecting or being reborn in his own "Son". He incarnates in avatars, announcing his latest form. So there is consistency but also discrepancy. He smashes idols and then presents us with an idol of himself, to later be smashed by him. The law is fulfilled by being overthrown, and the heart of grace is restored, no longer hidden in that, once-leavened bread of the law.
*Father of majestic name,*
*May your Kingdom reign,*
*- As above, so below -*
*So that your will be done,*
*And the two become One.*
*Fulfill our essential needs:*
*As we forgive and forget,*
*Pardon too our misdeeds,*
*That we be not led to trial,*
*But delivered from Belial.*
Jesus the Nazarene was a first century Jewish rabbi, messianic claimant, self-proclaimed prophet, wonderworker, right-hand-path white magic practitioner, master exorcist, cosmic avatar, divine emissary of The One, and a perfectly enlightened human originating from the Galilee who attained apotheosis after death.
25:05 It's an "independent attestation" of _a sect of people who believed in Jesus_ that's not reliant on the gospels. It's NOT an "independent attestation" of Jesus' existence, words, acts, or anything else, based on _first hand evidence._ As Dr. Ehrman says, Josephus got his information from "somebody", maybe Romans, maybe Jews, less likely but possibly Christians. Josephus is recording a common belief of the time.
It's true that Josephus most likely didn't read or get information from the gospels. In fact, he would have been writing his own work around the same time as the earliest gospels and before the later ones. There's no doubt that stories were being told by people, and perhaps being written down, _before_ the canonical gospels. After all those gospel authors had to get their information from somewhere.
So, yes, people were talking about Jesus at the time Josephus was writing his history, and given the time frame (the 90s CE), most if not all would not have been first hand witnesses of Jesus either, Jesus having died some 60 years before, if he existed at all.
26:00 I want to emphasize again, Josephus is an _independent source_ regarding _what a certain group of people believed at the time,_ 60 years after the supposed life and events of Jesus. He is NOT an "independent source" on the existence of Jesus. If the argument for Jesus' existence is that people 60 years later believed he existed, then Josephus supports that argument. But it only "strengthens" that argument if the argument itself is valid. Is people's belief that someone existed 60 years before a strong argument that such person actually existed? I'm not going to argue either way here. But that's the point that needs to be argued before we can assess whether Josephus' statements support a strong or a weak argument. If they support a weak argument then his statement itself is only a weak contribution.
The latter books of Josephus contain historical details about a number of Jewish rebels, among them John the Baptist, Judas the Galilean, the Egyptian, Theudas. I'll just point out that nobody questions the existence of these people. Nor do they much question the existence of James the brother of Jesus "the so-called Christ".
It would be considered an independent source if it’s legit. Even if it’s just a story from a follower or whatever. We are talking about a Aramaic jew 2000 years ago. We would expect zero trace. Yet instead we have Paul, mark, and other traces. Which is quiet a bit
I’ve heard Bart Ehrman many times refer to the Gospels as four independent attestations, so I suppose his definition of “independent” is different to mine.
And once you admit that there might be at least three scenarios, from authentic to total fabrication, it is difficult to place any reliance on a passage as evidence of anything.
@@paulwellings-longmore1012so… drop ancient history entirely? No need to study all those old copies of copies of those long dead writers?😊
@@PekoeBrew-gr4cr "historical details" whereas the alleged comments about Jesus contain no historical details.
Thank you both so much! Outstanding!!
I learned about him while in Latin class in high school. We read some of his writing in Latin!! fun.
As you probably know, all of Josephus’ surviving works are in Greek. The Latin you read was a translation by someone else.
I'm enjoying your blue hair... Please keep up the great work.
My ultra-rare Greek first edition (Editio Princeps) of Josephus from 1544 will go on auction at some time in the foreseeable future at New England Book Auctions in Massachusetts, USA.
For how much
@@mtdouthit1291 It's an auction, so it will likely be "all that the market will bear". Given Josephus' historical reputation/"street cred", I would expect it to be a rather extreme & fancy figure. Also, added value probably exists in the 1544 AD date, which is relatively early in the history of European printing (only about 90 years since the invention of the Gutenberg press), so yeah, you may wanna be breaking into great-great-grandpa's bank vault to participate in this sale. Or maybe already be a multi-millionaire in your own right. Have fun!
@@aryahavinfun5682 Well said! There are good copies on the premier internet used book interface, the name of which I can't mention here. But it begins with "A" . One copy there with Arrian's work's bundled in is priced at $15K, another without Arrian at $10K, and another at $6K. I paid $500 for mine on that same site 20 years ago! it is in fine condition, except that the vellum boards are bizarrely trimmed very close to the text block, extending only 1/16" beyond it. Of course, asking for a certain high amount doesn't mean getting it. The price mine will fetch will greatly depend on how many potential buyers see it. I am putting a lot of trust in the auctioneer. He has large numbers of other such rare books of mine, secular Greek and Latin authors, which will go on auction at the same time. And I have still more he needs to come and get. I am probably the premier collector of such books in the USA.
Thanks, you two, for another wonderful presentation! ❤❤
i have two burning questions i’m dying to know more about.
1. What is this divine council we speak of? There seem to be hints of paganism with many deities in the old testament.
2. Is it possible it started as a pagan religion and slowly developed into a monotheistic one?
does anyone have advice on where to learn further about this?
There are many books on the subject. Check out The History of God by Karen Armstrong as l si look for Dan McClellan on youtube.
Abrahamic religions as we know them evolved out of the Canaanite pantheon where everybody believed all the gods existed, but each city-state would have had their patron deity. As time went on, city states got bigger and turned into nations and empires, others turned into vassals/destroyed/incorporated and the gods of the winning peoples got bigger and the losers weaker, Yahweh was the patron god of Israel and Judah, and he also had a wife, then the Assyrian empire came and destroyed all the cities and temples except for Jerusalem, so if you wanted to worship Yahweh, you went to Jerusalem, king Josiah decided he liked things that way and outlawed worshipping other gods and at other temples, everyone could only worship Yahweh and only in Jerusalem. Most scholars agree, I think, that monotheism was a very late development, later even than the development of Christianity, because there are still lots of references to other gods throughout the Bible, just Yahweh is always mentioned as being supreme over them all.
100% correct, Yahwe was a sky- and stormgod in a Olympian-like pantheon, alongside Baal, El, married to Asherah, bunch of others as well. Just google the gods names and start reading up, it's all right there.
Dan McClellan talks about this fairly often, though in short format.
The most recent example -- ruclips.net/video/9SfZGK238lU/видео.html
But yes, I believe the consensus is that Judaism began as another Semitic pagan religion and over time became monotheistic. Relatively late in the history of Judah too, by most accounts.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 thank you, i’ll check it out!
Richard Carrier contradicts the statement that Josephus was referring to James the brother of the lord (referring to Jesus) in his writings. It would be great to see them debate.
Love this!! Thank you! I'm going with Bart Ehrman's option : adding in words by a Christian most likely. My concern is this: how does adding to/manipulating writings part of Biblical/Christian principles? Do such actions conflict with broader biblical principles concerning integrity, truthfulness, and fidility to original teachings? The act of altering a historian's writings poses significant challenges not only for historical accuracy but also for maintaining trust within religious communities regarding their sacred texts. Again, while some may view the alteration of Josephus'writings as a means to support Christian doctrine, does it stand in conflict with biblical principles advocating for truthfulness and integrity in reporting history? The act of altering a historian's writings does not reflect adherence to values upheld within scripture regarding truthfulness and accurate representation.
Answering murphy ( for some reason it's now allowing me to answer you)
When a Christian scribe alters Josephus’s writings to promote a Christian agenda-implying beliefs about Jesus that may not align with Josephus’s actual views-it clearly constitutes manipulation. This practice raises significant ethical questions regarding historical accuracy and integrity while echoing biblical admonitions against altering sacred texts. The Bible contains explicit warnings against adding to or altering sacred texts. One example is found in Revelation 22:18-19 This passage underscores a broader principle within biblical literature regarding fidelity to original texts. While it specifically addresses prophetic writings within Scripture itself, it reflects a general attitude towards textual integrity-an admonition against distorting any written work for personal gain or ideological purposes.
Here is another one : Deuteronomy 4:2
I believe that was option 3?
@@mikeharrison1868 I thought Bart Ehrman said it was not entirely forged.
Incredible question and so often overlooked by Christians.
👏🏼
You keep using "biblical principles" and "truthfullness and integrity" in the same sentence. These things are opposite.
What's cute about interpolation is it just continues for Ehrman on the TF. If someone interpolated and added or changed what Josephus said to include Jesus story, to assume it was only partially interpolated and could have said something about Jesus originally is merely a new interpolation. "well it was interpolated, but we can say it might have been something about Jesus because if we strip it down and take some of hte language we could make it sound fairly mundane, which might fit what Josephus said therefore option 2 is best". Or something. No...that's just adding interpolation to interpolation, essentially.
There's a big difference between a Christian scribe fudging the meaning for religious reasons, and a scholar honestly trying to recover the original meaning. By the way, Bart did not mention the Arabic version which appears to have much less Christian interpolation.
Why did Dr. Ehrman recently start referring to the land where Christ lived as "Israel" instead of "Palestine," as it was called at that time, like he used to?🤔🤔
It would be better to call it "Judea" or "Palestine" or "The Roman province of Judea". The first and third more consistent with the aramaic versions and the second with the greek.
It's called 'Israel' in the bible, Palestine's not mentioned.
It depends on the time period. You’d call it Canaan in even earlier periods.
I guess that depends on the source he is using.
Fit example, Romans would call Spain and Portugal as Hispania. The Greeks would call it Iberia
It was not called Palestine at the time. It was called the Roman province of Judaea. The province’s name was changed to Syria Palaestina about a century after Jesus’s death.
🐶 Nina (the dog) sounds exactly like my dog! Everyone my dog meets is her new best friend, who she will LOVE FOREVER with EVERY FIBRE of her being! 🥰 She'd not only welcome a thief by smothering them in kisses, she'd be showing them around, bringing them her toys so that they can play, and telling them that they should come back again SOON so that they can hang out again! ❤️😅
Thank you Dr. Ehrman for your enlightenment. I was raised with the ecumenical yoke that has burdened millions. You have truly paved the road to mindful freedom. THANK YOU!
A true believer. Sigh. 😔
I felt the sorrow of the Holy Spirit in my spirit when I read to your word "tale,"
Starts at 6:07 Flavius Josephus was an antiquities historian and considered a secular source for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.
Meg is so beautiful 😍 thank you both for your time, insights, and information being shared with all. I’m unlearning a lot as I am deconstructing. I appreciate barts work and reading some of your books right now and blog. Thank you for your work.
But that blue hair has got to go. Is she unhappy with her life and that is how she is choosing to act out? Or is it she is weak willed and easily swayed by pop culture with all the purple and blue haired malcontents.
4th option: it is a favorable (non-disparaging) explanation that hits on the major points of the religious tale
Josephus has to be one of the smartest operators of all time as well as the world’s best selling author ever. What a movie that could make.
Greetings Doctor Bart 🙋♂️ Couple of Questions i have ...
According to *John 4:13-14* Who is he that Gives Eternal water of Life 🤔 *Revelation 21:5-7* 🤔
According to Isaiah who gives rewards When the LORD shows Up *Isaiah 40:10-11 /62:11* 🤔 *Matthew 16:27 /Revelation 22:12-16* 🤔
Who Hand can we not be Snatched out of 🤔 *Deuteronomy 32:39 / John 10:27-33*
Thank you bless you 🙏🙋♂️🙏
Paula Fredriksen is brilliant, and her recent writing on this question of monotheism is fascinating. In 1999, I was coordinating an interfaith event in NYC, and I was able to get her as the scholar-in-residence. The book Prof. Ehrman refers to is “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” and is a very important read.
Prof. Fredriksen also happens to be a gracious and friendly person, and sometimes very funny, so I urge everyone to see her if possible. BTW she’s now Prof. Emerita at BU, and also at the Hebrew University in Israel. I’m excited that she’s bringing the monotheism research to the public, and hope it means she’s publishing a new book on the topic.
I still admire your courage.
6:15. The business at hand.
Has anyone else noticed that Bart is now referring to Palestine as Israel, unlike in his earlier videos?
So we don't know who he was talking about, someone with a brother perhaps, but we know over time it got embellished and changed enough to confirm the Jesus story.
I wonder if Meghan and Bart have met in real life. In this day and age, some of my best friends have never been in the same room as me. It’s sad in a way because I’d like to meet them for real, but it’s also nice that now I can meet people I never would have otherwise met.
Hey it's Chris, the show producer writing for Bart. I don't think they have. Bart lives in NC and Megan in Maryland.
I was always under the impression that Josephus was a Contemporary or Jesus? Not that he was born after Jesus died? Can this actually be a "Testimony" if Josephus never met Christ?
Correct. Josephus was born after the dates traditionally assigned to Jesus. Josephus was also probably writing in the 90s, which was about the same time the earliest gospels were being written. So whatever stories people were sharing that led Mark and others to start writing, Josephus was probably hearing the same stories.
Whether or not those stories are an accurate retelling of history and a historical figure is an entirely different problem.
It's a verification that The Jesus mentioned is that of the Gospel's.
@@dearlrogers3498 the gospels disagree with each other
They don't, they have complementary accounts of the same Jesus Christ.
so first account of his behavior is that he is literally convincing people kill themselves and also deceiving them at the same time. lets believe what he says.
How was he convincing others to kill themselves (not actually since they killed each other) and not just going along with the vote after putting the suggestion forward? Afaik they would vote on this and then draw lots to see who kills who and the order. They would have seen suicide as a sin as well. I’m sure lots of people might get cold feet when it finally comes down to killing themselves.
Josephus also wrote about a similar thing happening on a much larger scale at Masada but who knows if that was accurate either?
@@murph8411The whole "lots of people ... cold feet" thing is why we venerate honor and courage. You can view Josephus as having eliminated the mass threat to the Romans in order to increase his chances of being granted clemency by convincing his brethren to kill themselves and then welching on his oath to go to the grave with them.
@@justinfleming5119 yep that's what he did alright
Now that I think about it, I don’t see why Christians “need” Josephus. IF he did in fact write about Jesus, he only tells us 3 unique things about him! 3!
1. He had a brother named James
2. He was known as as wise, virtuous, and ethical man
3. The disciples did not abandon the teachings which they had learned from him
So no, in essence, Josephus is not pertinent. And plus, as RUclipsr Gnostic Informant commented: “Josephus is 96 AD. That’s a lifetime away, that’s 2 generations almost later. Josephus is after Paul and after the Gospels. So what! He heard the story! Big deal! So the fact that Josephus heard the story is nothing. Doesn’t mean anything.”
It's important for historical reasons because it gives independent confirmation.
Why would Josephus make it up? It makes no difference to him. He is not a Christian. The Gospel writers are of course Christians and so do have reasons to want to these things to be true. Reasons to want to make them up.
That makes it strong historical evidence. Evidence that these things are true.
Early (but later) christians (eg Eusebius) had a thing for extra biblical confirmation.
@@knutsparell3619 so do modern ones
Also after the Jewish War which extensively changed the context for Judaism.
All 3 points square with the biblical record and with it being an extra biblical source it adds credibility to the biblical account.
Tacitus, also a first century historian wrote about Christ; specifically about his execution by Pilate, and the existence of Christians in the first century. Again, a Roman source, not a Christian source, all adding to the veracity of the biblical narrative.
That's why it's relevant.
There is a 4th perspective (though definitely in the minority): that the Testimonium Flavianum is authentic, but since the audience is pagan, it should be read in a pejorative/mocking sense (see Jacob Berman's interview with Dr. Samuel Zinner over at History Valley). I would be curious to hear Bart's thoughts on that view.
Bart harps on non Christian historical references about Jesus the Messiah and it's silly if not biased for the following reasons: 1. Jesus' direct mission was to His own. He didnt preach all too far from Jerusalem. He didnt preach in Rome, Athens , Corinth, Egypt, Persia etc. So which gentile historian would have even know him directly?So Barts arguement makes no sense. 2. Of the Eight NT authors , 7 were Jewish. 1 a Gentile in Luke. With the possible exception of Luke they were all 1st hand accounts. Further they all were persecuted suffered and matyred and held their beliefs. That's compelling. 3 Josephus' accounts of what happened between 66 and 70 AD give secular testimony to the prophecies espoused in the NT concerning the end of the Mosaic covenant. The witnessing before the passing of "this generation", no stone left to the temple. Etc etc. And no historian date those books post 70AD except Eusibious 100s of years later and for Revelation only........and Bart has already discounted Eusebious.
You seemed to be more educated than bart on this topic. Why don't you make video to rebut his argument? It must be interesting
It would have been much better if they let the first 6 minutes smalltalk out of the debate.
In the first century means
"In the beginning of New testament"
First page must be John 1:1
In the beginning of Old Testament
Genesis 1:1
If we go back the premise of God
In Deuteronomy 18:18
Deuteronomy 18:15
Except the 300 prophecies Christ fuffield from the old testament. In addition Christ being present before Adam . Let Us make them in Our image . The Deity of the God Head
revealed in the account of the creation of man .
@@dearlrogers3498 there's no question about it, mine only just to fulfill the word of God
Kkkk... john never wrote or he's not eye witness, that's why you read about his birth.. so roman doctored gospels.. that's why they are not chronological.. so Paul's letters are old than gospels... please read acts of apostles.. to get more info..
Just a quick note ... Hebrew scriptures have it all
@@dearlrogers3498 Gibberish.
@@ace-mahal1401 gibberish.
The earliest copy of Joseph ben Matthias' "Antiquities of the Jews" is of Books 11 to 20 only, and dates to 370 CE. We have no originals. Christian copyists were notorious for changing texts that disagreed with the Christian Canon selected by the Council of Nicaea convened by Constantine the Great in 325 CE, (primarily to stop violence between Arianists and Trinitarians, but also to deal with other sects such as the Gnostics). As Dr Ehrman states, Joseph ben Matthias (Flavius Josephus) was non-Messianic. He qualified as a Pharisaic priest and lawyer, but worked only as a lawyer, in which capacity he met Nero. while successfully defending some Jewish priests in a case brought before the Emperor.
Joseph b M chose the Pharisaic tradition after long trial periods living according to the customs of the Pharisees, Sadducees , and Essenes. The former two Jewish sects were non-Messianic, while the tiny sect of the reclusive and ascetic Essenes was pacifist and Messianic: the Essenes expected a divine "Teacher of Righteousness". There were two additional sects in 1st century Palestine: the Samaritans and the Nazarenes (nasaraioi, nazarenoi, or nazorei, Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 18 & 19, 374 or 375 CE). The Samaritans were non-Messianic, while the Nazarenes were Messianic. It would have been absurd for Joseph b M to accept the existence of a Messiah.
I have read Antiquities of the Jews, (AJ) and have a copy on my computer. The authenticity of the mention of Jesus in AJ Book 18 Ch 3 discussed in this video is highly questionable and I flatly disagree with Dr Ehrman. Its style jars conspicuously with the rest of the text. All scholars recognise that Josephus wrote a detailed history with great attention to continuity. The mention of Jesus comes amid an extraordinary hiatus in AJ from 7-26 CE. These years are absent from all known copies of AJ. A reasonable explanation is that they were expunged by Christian copyists because they contained information that contradicted the Gospels.
The other reference to Jesus only appears in the Slavonic copies of AJ, which contain "numerous interpolations and omissions" with respect to other copies, and the authenticity of these interpolations and omissions has been rejected by all mainstream scholars, a fact that Dr Ehrman should have disclosed. From a scholarly point of view, using the second Messianic reference in AJ to substantiate the first is nonsense, and Dr Ehrman knows this.
What we do know from AJ is that the Nazarenes were a sect formed by a family that claimed the Judean throne in dispute with the Herodian dynasty. The Nazarenes fought a multi-generational insurrection against the Romans and their Jewish Herodian client state, a war that was at its hottest at the end of the first century BCE and throught the first century CE. Unfortunately the words translated as "robber" in modern English covered many criminals in Judea; insurrectionists, revolutionaries, brigands, outlaws, terrorists, etc. were all called "robbers". The earliest leader of the Nazarenes mentioned by Josephus, is Ezekias. He was followed as leader by his son Judas, and then by Judas' son John. Their stronghold was the big northern town of Gamala, north os the Sea of Galilee. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century CE, and indeed was still just a hamlet in the 700s. The word "Nazarene" may refer to the members of this sect hving saworn Nazarite vows, mean "the victorious ones" from the Semitic root "nsr" (nasser), or mean the "watchmen".
The big town described in the Gospel of Luke as Jesus' home town, matches Gamala and could not be Nazareth, which did not then exist. The Nazarene leader John of Gamala was caught by the Romans, along with his comrade Simon of Gioras, shortly before Pontius Pilate was recalled to Rome. The Nazarenes were notorious for the ruthless manner in which they forced Jews to participate in their struggle against the Roman occupiers and Herodian client state. Joseph b M noted that John of Gamala was tortured to his last breath, (he was crucified), and that his execution was supported by the Pharisaic Jewish leaders because he had acted with extreme cruelty against many innocent people.
Italian scholars Luigi Cascioli and Emilio Salsi demonstrated that the names of John's brothers closely match those of disciples in the Gospels, and the names of the other disciples that do not match John's brothers have Greek rather than Jewish roots. This is important, because in first century Palestine there was extreme tension between the Greek and Jewish communities, and families in the areas to the north and north-east of Galilee - the Nazarene stronghold - eschewed Greek names in favour of Jewish names, to avoid persecution. The Greek names of the later disciples appear to have been added. The new names given to the disicples in the Gospels, as they were recruited, are very much like the "noms de guerre" used by insurrectionist, terrorist, and similar groups worldwide, throughout history.
The Italians also demonstrated that the leaders of the Zealots who precipated the great Jewish Rebellion of 66-73 CE were none other than the immediate relatives and descendants of the Nazarene family disputing the Judean throne, and that the line of descent from King David claimed for John of Gamala reasembles that stated for Jesus to a truly remarkable degree.
The simplest possible explanation for the origin of Christianity is that when the Zealots were holding out in the great fort of Masada, they tried to convince the pacifist Essenes in the nearby villages that John of Gamala, crucified by Pontius Pilate, had been the Essenes' long expected divine "Teacher of Righteousness". They did so to win the support of the Essenes and prevent them giving forage, water, and livestock to the Romans. The Essenes practised baptism in water and ritual bathing, which the other Jewish sects did not. When you became accepted into the Essene community you took a new name in a water baptism ritual. The Essenes also worshipped in their own village chapels, not in the Temple at Jerusalem. It is likely that the Zealots convinced the Essenes that John of Gamala had been divine and undergone water baptism to become "Jesus" (actually "Yeshua" = "saviour). This was a common name in the 1st century CE, and a study of names in AJ proves it was especially favoured by families in which priesthood was a tradition.
The Zealots at Masada famously committed suicide rather than submit to Rome. Saul/Paul appears to have met Essene refugees in the aftermath of the Jewish Rebellion, and believed in their tale of Jesus the Messiah. What he learnt was handed down and morphed into the Gospels, with a few errors. John the Baptist did not baptise Jesus. Rather, John of Gamala was baptised "Jesus". A crown of throns was placed on his head because John genuinely claimed the throne of Judea, through a rival royal lineage to the Herodian line, descending from King David. John was John of Gamal, not John of Nazareth - but he was a Nazarene, and somewhere along the line this became garbled, leading to "Jesus of Nazareth". Nazareth did not exist in first century Palestine, and was still only a hamlet centuries later - without a synagogue.
In short, it is far, far more likely that the story of "Jesus of Nazareth" stems from tales invented by John of Gamala's immeduate family members, to persuade the Essenes to support them during the Jewish Rebellion, than Jesus of Nazareth was a man-god sent to save the world. I haven't noted Jesus intervening in anything, not even when paedophile priests and ministers abused hundreds of thousands (yes! this is correct!) of children, or when a bus load of Christian pilgrims fell 30 metres into a gorge and burst into flames, burning them to death, as recently happened in SouthAfrica. Indeed, one could rattle on about witch hunting in Europe, the persecution of so-called heretics, the Inquisition, Crusader atrocities, etc. Jesus/God never puts in an appearance. As a humanist I am not surprised. You have to be naive (and perhaps also simple) to swallow religion. What matters is how we treat other people. A supreme, divine being would never need to be worshipped, and would never stoop to burning people for eternity, let alone have his sone tortured to death in order to be able to forgive people their sins. What poppycock!
You will demand Josephus himself appear in person and tell you that Jesus was living in Israel.
But...Josephus was born 10-20 years after Jesus died. Jospehus was not therefore recording stuff about Jesus that he actually saw. He was only recording stories about Jesus that were in circulation at the time. It is still quite possible that Jesus was just a story.
Dr Ehrman said that he was born after the death of Jesus.
He was probably born between 32-37 AD
Ehrman addresses the question of the historicity of Jesus in another podcast.
I mean, it’s “possible”, there’s just no very good reason to think so. It’s a lot more plausible that a mass religious movement launched & grew so rapidly beginning with a real charismatic leader around whom a lot of fantastical legendary stories sprung up than it is to think that even the totally mundane and historically plausible parts were all fabricated from whole cloth.
No real "but." Bart noted Josephus provided brief details as a secondary source that helped provide one additional source of Jesus's historicity. Josephus was alive & generally around when Jesus's brother was killed. He also was around to see the early Christian movement.
No good reason to think Jesus -- as compared to other historical figures we at times assume exist even with fewer sources -- did not exist. There are various mythical details as there were for various other historical figures around that era.
The chit chat pet talk stops at 6 minutes and the topic in the title begins.
Origen looked for the testimonium for years but could not find anything. Its hard to find later interpolations. Game over.
What are you talking about? Origen clearly states twice that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as the Christ". Plain evidence that he read an early version of the Testimonium which was neutral or negative about Jesus.
@@PekoeBrew-gr4crYou need to read Chrissy Hansen’s recent article on Jospephus. Origen quotes the exact book (book 18) while referencing John- he does not do this for Jesus. The reference “he did not accept Jesus as the Christ” is likely because everyone simply knew him as a Jew- which automatically meant he would not have accepted Jesus as the Christ- nothing to do with a neutral or negative reference. Also no other apologist / church fatherz (many who refer to Josephus) before Eusebius quote or refute or comment anything on the TF(making it extremely unlikely that it is authentic).
@@Peejayk Well there are scholars and there are scholars. For Origen to make a definitive statement that Josephus did not accept Jesus as the Christ, that likely implies he read something to that effect. If the original TF in Josephus was neutral about the guy, that's a good reason why most apologists would have simply ignored it.
@@PekoeBrew-gr4cr Am sorry they is not a valid point. For Origen and the other numerous apologists not to comment or pass their apologetic views on TF is glaring. If perhaps one or 2 refrained from commenting on it may by chance- but for ALL apologists before Eusebius not to comment on the TF in some way despite making other remarks related to Josephus goes against the realms of likelihood. Remember from Eusebius onwards to modern Times- Josephus is constantly and regularly drawn upon as a reference/ evidence for Jesus existence/ prominence/ ministry of Jesus.
@@Peejayk All this shows is that the original TF probably had a neutral tone, which did not draw the ire of apologists. After it was interpolated with glowing phrases, yes it would become drawn upon as positive "evidence".
One thing Bart didn't mention in the video, there was an Arabic translation of the TF which apparently was made before the interpolations, and is much more neutral.
starts at 6:20
I have seen many Ehrman videos, and I enjoy his insightful analysis of whatever the subject may be. However, his incessant inappropriate laugh drives me bonkers.
Where can we find tbe book "Antiquities of the jews" from Josephus? Thanks
It’s in the public domain.
I can see the fascination of Jewish and Atheist intellectuals or anyone's interest in researching Jesus. How did the nice Jewish boy become the God of the Western and Southern world?
Answer:
He sang Psalm 22 out on the cross and a simultaneous and unforgettable mass mind explosion occurred in the crowd. I know that I had one, when I read Psalm 22. It hit me, what I would imagine a crack hit to be like, but completely natural of course. I'm getting it again, just writing about it.
Jesus Christ Super Star was the First and Greatest member of the 27 Club! That's pretty divine to me. Jesus is alright by me. But I shan't go on and on...
Actually, Jesus was forced upon different peoples and cultures by 4 different empires" Roman, English, Spaniard, and Portuguese.
@@raymoss706truth
You sound pretty wacko tbh mate.
I am sure Dr. E can expand on this interesting discussion for us. Part 2?
-please less chatting at the beginning! So much great info, it's just an unnecessary and somewhat tedious distraction to the great content after. Keep up the talks, tho, great content when you get around to it!
I have the upmost respect for Bart, and I’m not necessarily convinced of the mythycist position, but I do think he misjudges how usefull the Josephus passage can be for adding credibility to the historical Jesus. It does seem more logical to me that at best Josephus can tell us what Christians were saying about Jesus, but that’s a secondary source commenting on hearsay.
Why is that at best?
He's within a few decades, why couldn't he have had Jewish sources who knew something about that weird guy who claimed to be the Messiah, but got executed by the Romans?
It's not like he went to Christian sources for the rest of his Jewish history, right?
Well perhaps because the account is of a Jewish sect who had ideas about universal blood atonement...That could have emerged without anyone getting diz on the cross. There was a terrible war going on. What is so bizarre about a folk story offering hope.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 that's still remote hearsay. J heard it from some guy long after Jesus (allegedly) died.
You do realize that historians don't need to live in the time of the person they're doing a history on? This is clearly bad faith.
That's what history is. Especially back then. It's not written by eyewitnesses.
And this wouldn't just apply to what Josephus wrote about Jesus, right? It would be everything else he wrote about in his histories, except for the bits he personally witnessed. Everything else is hearsay and should just be ignored by scholars.
Josephus never meet Jesus so how is he a credible source?
Have you ever met your leader personally?
He gathered information on the ground as do historians. He was a historian. This is not meant to be about any personal relationship or knowledge of Him.
Josephus was born in Jerusalem and his life would have crossed over with James and the older apostles. Plus his family could have provided information.
@@debrawoodrick2889 what’s your point
@@marylouleeman what information did he gather from give me source
Great talk as usual. Dr. Ehrman refers to the holy land of the day as 'Israel'; however, Josephus refers to the land as 'Judea' not 'Israel'.
It was Provincia Iudea, the Province of Judea. “Israel” was the name of a kingdom that became extinct 800 years before, but also a collective name for the Jews. The Land of Israel is used in Jewish talk, also in the Gospel.
Love Josephus, this guy. Jewish general, Jewish slave, Roman writer and family member of the Flavian imperial dynasty. I imagine him roaming Judea w/ Titus, his girl Queen Bernice and her brother Herod Agrppia ii
traitor, murderer, coward, all the good stuff
Turncoat
Living his best life.
@@Youssef-pr8ih yes and survivor - not sure what I would have done in the same situation
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 Always follow the truth and worship the only true God. The God that created us all.
1.) see Genesis 12:3
2.) In the beginning was The Word. And The Word was with God and the Word was God ... And The Word became flesh and walked among us.
A wise old man once told me( a jew will always tell what happened to him but he will never say why ) 👌 identical
What in the racism is this?
Jhn 20.1 ¶The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
This passage says Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb when it was dark and the tomb was empty. Making a sunrise resurrection an impossibility
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on us sinners.🙏
What's a sinner? 🤔
You @@ambrosemalone1891
@@ambrosemalone1891you and me.
@@ambrosemalone1891shhhhh just play along
shaddup😊
Assuming Jesus was not called the “Son of God” during his lifetime, why would people have thought to call him that after his death? I see why people started calling him the “Son of Man” or the Logos, but why did “Son of God” become the most popular title for Jesus and where did it come from?
Because when his followers claimed to have seen him resurrected after his death, the prevailing theology of the time led people to think this meant he had either been elevated to, or perhaps had been along, some kind of divine being.
Megan's hair!
I see three books by Paula Frederiksen, so I was wondering where to start to see if I like her stuff?
I believe the lord Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified dead & buried ,and rose from the dead on the third day, I have faith that is absolutely right - Jesus Christ is King ✝️
Is 7 was translated incorrectly the Hebrew says a you g woman has conceived not a virgin will conceive. The whole virgin Mary cult is bullshit.
I believe in leprechauns
That'll get you a fish for a day. How about tomorrow?
@@johnayers2483
I caught a leprechaun and demanded his pot of gold. I got a box of chocolates. Not even good ones. The crappy dollarama ones.
@@johnayers2483troll
Is Dr. Ehrman holding any public events in Chapel Hill? I live in Raleigh and I would like to attend one of his lectures
What Bart callls "Israel" was called Palestine before the invasion and renaming of 1948.
The word "Palestine" does not appear in the New Testament. In the Hebrew Bible the term Peleshet appears.
@@shuttlemanjack Well it is said Abraham settled in the land of the Philistines
Josephus also wrote the below, which we know is not true, showing that he made stuff in his histories.
“Its color is like that of flame, and toward evening it sends out a certain ray like lightning: it is not easily taken by such as would do it, but recedes from their hands, nor will yield itself to be taken quietly, until either the urine of a woman, or blood, be poured upon it; nay, even then it is certain death to those that touch it, unless anyone take and hang the root itself down from his hand, and so carry it away. It may also be taken another way, without danger, which is this: they dig a trench quite round about it, till the hidden part of the root be very small, then they tie a dog to it, and, when the dog tries hard to follow him that tied him, this root is easily plucked up, but the dog dies immediately, as if it were instead of the man that would take the plant away nor after this need anyone be afraid of taking it into their hands. Yet, after all this pains in getting, it is only valuable on account of one virtue it hath, that if it be only brought to sick persons, it quickly drives away those called demons, which are no other than the spirits of the wicked, that enter into any men that are alive and kill them, unless they can obtain some help against them.” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VII. Chap. iv, 3.)
The story about Jesus is forged Josefud was born 40years after Jesus was dead.Jesus not the messiah he did not fullfill even one of the deeds the messiah was supposed to do according to Hosea and Daniel the jewish prophets.But Josefus is recording the stories about the man Jesus which tells that the man existed and his disples believed that he was the messiah.
Forged by all the gospel writers? There is no other historical document with so much evidence.
I'm confused about what is a primary source
It seems to me like Josephs is repeating what he heard, he said she said