Level Up! How fast is TOO fast in D&D & Pathfinder?
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- In episode #115, Professor Dungeonmaster discusses the speed of character advancement. How fast is too fast in D&D and Pathfinder? PDM offers some insight into this critical facet of the game.
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"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
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Delightful topic. In my decades of DMing and playing, the speed of levelling always feels"too slow for players patience, and too fast for the DMs pace".
In my old ADnD campaign, I had a Rogue4/Wizard3. Because the others wanted a fresh start and I didn't want to start all over AGAIN (I played a Wizard before, and it took ages to get to that level) I agreed to not gain xp until they reached my level.
After 7 years I am still Rogue4/Wizard3 XD
Nail on the head right here.
Yup. As DM I love super slow leveling. However, I just finished up a Pathfinder AP with my wife and kids. I used the AP level up suggestions. It was fast. They were leveling up every couple sessions. Fun for them, but now they are starting on my home brewed campaign and they will move super slow.
Dragonshade Studio I love that 3-5 zone and the high teens too
Always.
Too many people want to level fast, you just wind up starting over a lot when you do that in my experience as well.
especially when you play with people who have too much free time on their hands who demanded playing tier 3 and wont settle with less then 6 hours of play. sorry for the rant :D
@@tomoyuukinue2185 I don't even know what tier 3 is. I do get a lot of people who don't like playing at level 1 but I find that level to be the most fun, personally.
Its lvl 11-17 I think. And I agree with you. Starting at lvl 1 is fun and I like to do so for my sandbox game
My group has the issue that we all have demanding jobs and kids and other responsibilities. We’re lucky if we get 4-5 hours twice a month. So if we did slow play and always started at level 1 there’d never be anything but tier 1 play.
@@wisebloodj1 My group has the same problem it's just we play play DCC and low level DCC characters only go up to level 10.
A 2nd level DCC character is on par with a level 5 D&D character in my opinion.
Surely one of the most radical professors at the university, with controversial opinions that verge on blasphemy, Prof DM always brings the fire to each and every lecture!!! Two enthusiastic thumbs up! 👍
I'm the Gnome Chomsky of Dungeon U.
Dungeon Craft I was thinking the same thing!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Ouch!
Tom Young oh yeah
Dungeon Craft ha!
When everyone plays in a generic dirt farmer fantasy setting you're never going to be able to design a game for high level players. Try stepping onto the scorched earth of Dark Sun or through a portal to the City Of Doors in Planescape. You'll have plenty to do at level 20 and beyond.
Gotta go to planescape and spelljammer at higher levels for sure.
But... its a ton of work for the DM. Damn near exhausting and less fun over time.
Combat. Takes. Days.
One of those rare comment chains where everyone is right.
@@rhinoxrifter356 Personally I like crafting overly complex encounters where I have to keep track of a lot of shit, but then again I'm someone with a lot of patience and too much time on my hands.
I use Forbidden Lands and that game has no levels. Just XP points that you can use to by Skills or Talents. It leads to a more wide advancement instead the tall advancement of DnD. I really like it so far. It's more about 'normal' characters learning some new life skills to help them survive instead of become demi-godlike murder machines and hitpoint bags.
anyways thanks for the channel as always!
Thanks for telling me about Forbidden Lands. I'm going to have to look into it!
3 years later.. How did that turn out?
not sure if you're asking me or dungeoncraft, but I love running Forbidden Lands, it made for a very different type of game. Some of the greatest adventures we had ended up with the PC huddled up in a tent hiding from a snow storm, completly lost and almost out of food and firewood.@@helixxharpell
The higher ratio of Level 3 vs. Level 1 characters isn't surprising to me. I personally tend to favor starting new campaigns with semi-seasoned adventurers, and 3rd level is usually my launching point. This creates room for the players to write backstories that are a little more interesting and colored with heroic deeds. Mechanically, it also allows me to use a more varied selection of monsters without fear of killing the PCs outright.
like you say:
Reward them with contacts and rumors and ethos/sanity points, not XP! Just had a 6 hr session yesterday with only 100 XP and 3d6 sp in the whole dungeon they cleared and sent out to the party and they were pleased. I handed them out contacts and rumors when they returned to town instead and they were SOOO pleased. You're the man. We are having so much fun running an adaptation of your caves of carnage. Thanks for keeping me and my friends busy and entertained and connected.
Thanks for your kind words, Peter. Pass it on!
Professor, can you sync your videos to LBRY? It's a RUclips alternative that doesn't favor large companies. Every video is monetized.
Good God I'm praying for an alternative that is decentralized
@@hexchad765 Rise up good sir! You are not alone!
Yes! So much this!
Thanks for the new video source.
Feeding the Algorithm here. As heretical your tips are, they are most certainly helpful and I damn near use most of them.
Slower leveling is better for a solid, dedicated group. Thanks for the video.
You're very welcome!
I love how much you talk about Conan. Running a Hyborian Age campaign right now, and hands-down Howard is one of the best authors for any DM to read!
You had me at "Star Wars model and Star Trek model." Huge fan, love the videos!!!
Your nerd is showing, Professor! Like it wasn't already...
I've always found, as a player, that D&D gets less fun the more toys (skills, spells, weapons, etc.) the characters have. The sense of danger gets pushed back further and further until it just isn't a factor. And that's when I start checking out.
What you're saying makes sense, but if the leveling is going to be limited, then the GM has to be open about that. In our Pathfinder campaigns it turned out super annoying when we had designed our characters for a longer progression and were almost never allowed to level up. A lower level campaign would have been fine, however in a game like Pathfinder that can affect how you design your character (not fun when most of your characteristic abilities are only unlocked at later levels).
This 100%. I played a 3.5 game where I built a monk character with the intention of taking levels in the drunken master prestige class. I would n't be able to take my first level of drunken master until level 7 due to the class requirements, but we started at level 3, so I figured it would probably only take about 6 months or so of weekly game sessions. We were highschoolers at the time and would frequently do 6+ hour sessions most sundays. It took over a year and a half to get my first level of drunken master, and the campaign died a few sessions later. If I had known ahead of time that we would be leveling that slowly, I would probably have picked one of my many other character concepts instead.
This is also a reason why I love the Xanathar's Guide regardless of what system you are using. It has great random tables available for events that may have happened in your character's life as well as how they grew up and even immediate family/NPC contacts that the DM/GM can use to create story hooks with.
A simple rule is: "If the players know how their characters work, they can level up"
Personally I'd hate going that slowly, sure the story matters, but the mechanics get stale with no levelling. Then again I love options so much that I only play full spellcasters.
Your biggest mistake is thinking you're mechanics are limited to your class options.
@@thezerowulf507 5e really does rely on your race and class features. I have tried shenanigans with vials of acid, flasks of oil, wrestling, illusions, acting, persuading and trickery. Yes permissive GMs can allow some Rule of cool-things, but this is a system with codified mechanics. You can do a lot of flexible stuff in 5e but in the end, the rules do assume that you will mainly do what your class does. There are other systems that are much more freeflow.
fighters > spellcasters
Awesome video, as always !!
In 5e I tend to halve the xp suggestion given by the challenge rating and instead award additional xp based on achieved story milestones, good to, involvement in cool situations. That usually seems to give a good pace and allow me to throw more scary monsters at them without rushing through all the levels and them getting too powerful for the story to make sense.
Like this, they level up about every 5 or 6 sessions, still fight every session & resulting in about 2 or 3 months per level. That seems to feed their loot and ability hungry soul as well as allowing a story to evolve even that slowly takes on a grander and grander scale.
Great ideas. Thanks for sharing!
Totally with you on levelling up. I like players to level up when they AT LEAST know every ability they have off by heart, but have been forced to use the skills they have in multiple creative ways, as well as have tried to use the character in ways that they are not yet proficient.
This allows them the time and space to be creative with what they have at their disposal, which is what learning and growth are all about.
Really like this comment. Get creative with your character. If they don't take risks or challenge themselves they don't deserve to level up.
Random Algorythm modeling comment. Love this series. Thx PDM
Starting my first campaign soon, this was really helpful, thanks PDM 🤙
TL;DR You may want to practice scales a bit before jumping into Jazz.
The Prof. is the Coltrane of DnD.
No disrespect to the Prof., but remember to take his content with a grain of salt. Not so much this video as his others. He is very, very experienced and has many strong beliefs about the game that many others do not share. He is, in part, making huge changes to many core mechanics to mix things up and keep the game interesting; to minimize what he dislikes a d maximize what he likes. You will too, once you have some time behind the screen under your belt. But to new DMs, initially at least, I always reccomend trying to grasp the system as it is, warts and all and see how it works. Once you see how the game runs as a baseline, then start trying stuff out.
I realllllly like how you put it for the experience thing; the quicker you level, the closer you get to ending the game, or that character.
Same -- started campaign in 1991 -- still playing the same campaign -- characters at 7th/8th
Dang.
@@DMXXCorps wtf :D
half a year per the lower levels is fine. But you have multiple years per level xD thats a bit slow :D
Feeding the algorithm, I hope your videos reach more DMs!
This is one of the reasons I like playing Fantasy Hero. No levels in that skill-based system. Yes, your character point total goes up but the average character has between 8 to 13 "hit points" (BODY in Hero) with a maximum of 20. It is much easier to challenge players.
Better to go low and slow and make them earn every inch of it, than to play D&D like a video game, leveling up every time they turn around for doing very little.
Yep.
Milestone leveling ftw. Currently running LoX with players starting at lvl 5. Holding off giving them their uncommon magic item.. but also looking forward to seeing them reach lvl 13 and what cr monsters I can throw at them
I am an AL DM because I love the continuity the players can have with their characters between groups. I do appreciate your opinions on things and I'm trying to get away from a staunch rules lawyer. Your channel reminds me it's about the players having fun and not running the "perfect legal" game of DnD. Thanks for all the hard work!
the games I run are about the world. the players are basically parasites among the greater events occurring around them. earning xp and levels does happen, but the players are more intrigued by the events and the plot(s), than advancing levels.
in order to have an epic world altering story, slow advancement works best.
a simple fighter as a member of the town guard, has a better chance of accomplishing tasks than a mid-level fighter that's been knighted and has a huge reputation to uphold.
additionally, more powerful/advanced characters does not equal a better story.
Those "super dungeon masters" are full of air. They talk big but they are probably worse then regular DMs.
They are like the people telling fake stories of their power fantasy character on Reddit. While the rest of the party just exist in the background.
I think it's fine to level up at the normal in-book pace as long as you have something to provide after Level 20 when they reach it, or a nice reward between levels. Two weeks ago, The DM Lair made a video presenting various ideas for loot and rewards, such as areas of land, or plot-relevant items, or backstory-based plot hooks. Even items that don't really help you, but are generally fun to mess around with.
Further ideas were proposed in the comment sections of that video. There was even the suggestion of allowing spellcasters to work on new homebrew spells. One example I could see is one that was unrelated to this idea, "Create Robe Patch". This spell was found on D&DBeyond and was made 1st-level, but I think it should be a 2nd or 3rd-level spell. It basically allows you to turn an object or creature into a patch to put on the Robe of Useful Items, and the higher the slot you used to cast it, the higher the weight/size/CR limit on things you can turn into patches.
Give your players something to achieve other than just becoming more powerful or completing the story. That's really as simple as it gets.
to be honest, I heven't had much issue making challenges to higher levels- but my table is mostly "Kicking ass and killing lots of monsters" so I'd just throw bigger, stronger enemies- or use frankly ridiculous numbers of weaker ones (sometimes with ranged weapons) like one time I threw 20 giant rats (rolled the dice digitally) and a huge rat king at a level 6 party.
I have DM'd campaigns all the way up to 36th level in the BECMI system. The key is to change the game as you transition from one letter to the next:
Dungeon crawls and known cityscape adventures at B level,
Tentative exploration of alien realms, Travel and foreign/hostile cities at E level play,
Extra planar exploration, Dominion challenges, mass combat, heavy world invenstment and intrigue at C level play,
Extreme planar exploration and challenges, world shifting events, greater mass combat, quest for immortality at M.
Developing campaigns with the DM in a challenging way, playing mortal identities at I level play.
The only real difficulty, is if you try to keep the game the same as you move through different scales of play.
and I get that if you are not used to doing modules/adventures at these other levels you will feel like a fish out of water for a bit, but wasnt that the same when you started DMing in the first place with dungeon crawls? Nothing insurmountable.
The idea of "levels" never made any sense. My father isn't a 20th level handyman. He's just a handyman who's been doing that job for more than 30 years. I'm not a 1st level knife maker. I'm just a guy who picked up a hobby and has now made a handful of knives. Life just doesn't come in levels. Every little thing is its own skill and everybody learns their own skills at different rates and to different degrees. With the way "levels" are handled in most games, you get a bunch of XP, then when you reach a certain point, you get a bunch of different abilities, health, stat bonuses, etc. That's just not how progression of ability works.
That's why I prefer the mechanism of awarding XP, then letting the character spend that XP directly on specific abilities. If a character wants more health, he has to devote his points toward being tough, but if he's doing that, then he's not spending them on increasing the number of spells he can cast or how well he can pick a lock. It makes a character develop more organically.
Fully agree! As a player, I really enjoy low level games, where the possibilities are endless and death is always near.
A slow paced game lets inexperienced players enough time to undersrand their characters and be more creative with their abilities. I remember playing in a game... we where levelling so fast that we couldn't keep up and remember all our newly gained powers.
If your players needs 6 months to understand how their characters works, they should play tic tac toe, cause thats whats at their levels of understanding...
It doesn't take weeks to get how a feature work, specially in 5th E, you have like 12 features by the time you're lvl20...
If you talk 3rd or 3.5, then yeah...its actually perfectly understandable...
@@Mugthraka We where Indeed playing an heavily house-ruled version of 3.5.
Zen-RPG i didnt have a book and only met every other week. on top of no one explaining anything to me. Also I wasn't allowed to take my character sheet home for like 2 months.
feeding the algorithm to support my favorite DM's tips channel!
I slash at the RUclips algorithm to promote this channel !
Love the content Professor and I did guess correctly with the Conan book, which I promptly purchased after your mention of it in a previous episode.
Thank you for your time, your channel and sharing your experiences, I’m a huge fan
As a DM I ALWAYS went the "too slow" method.
Give the Players lots of small encounters to 'cut their teeth' and learn how to work as a TEAM.
Less chance of death. But throw in ONE monster that they can flee from. Players LEARN.
Amen, Mark!
Your points are especially true in the light of the truth that levelling up is illusory in the first place.
What about a reverse leveling where characters start gift level and are cursed and lose a level each session unless they attain mcguffin and retain fifth level.
Been playing for 43 years (not a typo). You're spot on. Players love a story driven game because they love the stories that entice them to play. Pace it so everyone enjoys the play and everyone wins. It takes time to figure out. Patience is the key. Be patient. Be kind. The result will be beautiful.
Dear Prof DM... I'm going to try and pierce your +1 tweed vest of protection. A lazy DM is being a sucky DM. A lazy employee is a sucky employee and you wouldn't keep an always lazy employee around (not) working for you, basically, stealing your money by not earning it. I'm pretty sure you would fire that lazy, sucky, bad employee. The PC's of 5E (today) have "worked hard" and stepped up their game in developing strong characters that get better and better as they level up...but the bad or lazy DM who creates inferior dungeons has no one to blame but themselves for failing their players and themselves.
DM's of 5E are still making 3.5E type or a 1990's dungeon for a 2020 5E party and complaining they can't TPK or challenge their PC's after level "X". Well, of course you can't, you were lazy and comprised an inferior dungeon. You came up with nothing to counter their level ups, feats, better spells, abilities, etc.. so you should fail. The PC's are working hard to make great characters... when in the 9 hells are the DM's going to step their game up?! Comparatively, the odds are way in favor of the DM. It's 3-10 PC's against 1 DM, but with an entire monster manual of countless assembled armies, limited only by torpor and their imagination... against those very limited 3-10 PC.
I don't believe it's the DM vs the players, but it seems most DM's do... so if you want to win or even just strike fear and challenge your higher-leveled party PC's... then don't be lazy and do better or stop DM'ing. Isn't that what you would (basically) tell your lazy employee? "Do better or find another job.
Love the channel
Maldrac the Tiefling Wizard
@Michael Johnson You could have at least liked my comment, since you liked your own post?! LOL
Nice (on line) meeting you.
I've watched the videos on speeding up combat and limiting HP & damage. It all makes sense, but my players are very motivated by the leveling up component. So what do they have to look forward to when they DO level up if they aren't getting more HP and the skill benefits are nixed?
Great question. They SHOULD get benefits! Just lower the DC when they try to do something risky.
Very solid and relevant video. Thanks.
My most recent campaigns have been....vexsome. To use the terminology of your video, I've wanted to run a 'Star Wars' game and the players signed on for that, only to get side-tracked enough so it becomes villian-of-the-week Star Trek. My most recent game, I've just given up and sold it as a hex-crawl episodic, though there IS an over-arching plot they can engage if they so desire.
That's a GREAT topic for an episode! What happens when the DM has all these ambitions for an epic game and the players don't share them. I'm writing this down. The short answer is do what you did: just go with it.
Based on past "lectures" from you Professor I've adopted more of an ICRPG type game. In true DnD fashion I have taken what rules I wanted and created ones I needed and I've found leveling is less significant. Levels in my game equate more to personal / party status - fame or infamy. Leveling escalators like hit points are removed and replaced with magic items that provide all kinds of various powers. Best of which they can be given or taken away! With this method I've found running games way less stressful and a LOT more fun. Best of all combat is super fast providing plenty of time for role-playing shenanigans. In my opinion if you want a tactical miniature game go play WH 40k, DnD is meant to be silly and fun. More laughs less stress!
@Professor Dungeon Craft -- yes all you say makes absolute sense. There needs to be a balance between Difficulty and Heroism ; characters that are too strong literally cakewalk everything and obliterate any obstacle or monster. I actually lost multiple players because of too much focus on combat and loot... But this aspect is appreciated by my other players who rejoice with combat and new powers.
I learnt the lesson a short while ago ; as a DM, it is best to make sure you address this topic with posting for a brand new campaign. When looking for new players, have some idea about how the campaign will go. Which percentage of exploration/combat/role play moments will there be ?
AzureTiger S Thanks for the thoughtful response!
Personally, I haven't planned or pulled off many Star Wars campaigns. I have run many Star Trek style episodic sandboxes though. I have to say that's where the real fun is. I think the magic is in the collaboration.
I agree. Have to make a video on collaborating with players.
I hate the "super dungeon masters" that claim it is easy to design adventures to 5e characters. It's not only hard but it is boring as well. Let's go back to OSR
Thanks for sharing You say what a lot of people are thinking.
I try for both a star wars and a star trek story. Leveling so far has been every couple of sessions. Could be after defeating a big bad or that it has been awhile.
For an example of mixing the two story types( I might ramble). The story started walking on the road heading to who knows where. You have been on the road for days. Not much progress has been made. You have suffered a major defeat and it weighs heavily on your mind. No words pass as you did not wish to speak of it. Not yet at least. On the next day you head into this sleepy little no name village. I wanted this to start on a low point so that my players can rise up from there in what is to come.
First session deals with an emerging goblin threat lead by someone named Ramala. After investigating with townsfolk and the drunken mayor(my favorite) they head out in the direction. They find a scene where a few wolves and goblins are dead (foreshadow).
Second session gets to the goblin hideout. Where the party takes out a patrol taking one goblin for questioning. The odd goblin was very talkative and immediately surrendered at the start of the battle. Zann told of a secret entrance, that Ramala is at the main base and that he doesnt like the boss here. Not like the kind boss lady. He swears to leave and never come back if they let him go.(They do). They get thru the remaining goblins and two humans leaders. One dies, other is captured but refuses to tell where Ramala is. They turn him over to the local authority. They decide to go to a bigger city to investigate further.
3+sessions begin to blur in memory. On the way he wolves from before come back to attack the party. Locals speak of several packs taking out livestock and attacking people. A worg was leading them.
In the big city they find some info on Ramala, get caught up in a murder investigation, learn of gnolls raiding caravans on a trade route, a horrible jaunt in the sewers, get coerced into going after the gnolls to get more info on Ramala and her band of goblins, taking out the gnoll chief and his troll slave(The party used entangle to separate the troll and took out the chief. I could not roll higher than a 4 to break free from it), learn more about a possible loc for Ramala, eventually getting to the camp with the help from Zann who was being held captive. They defeat the boss(he escapes) who was not Ramala. She also was being held captive. They find out he was behind the bad acts. They head a trading hub to go after the bad.
All during this I am also sprinkling in hints of 1pc's possible missing father, another pc (a raptoran) kept having flying dreams in all the sessions that brought joy and horror as she finds a corrupted raptoran holy sight. They now have to decide to go after the bad or the pc's dream of a holy sight needing to be cleansed. A few other 1 off's were in there like a broken wizard's tower that still had active defensive's. They will soon learn the bad wont be an easy target in the next setting and will need to build a coalition against him.
The bad is my star wars and with lots of trek in between.
Cool. Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Damn. Prf DM wrote alongside Chris Perkins???? Damn you got rizz, bruv. 😂.
I didn't write alongside him. We both submitted modules to Dungeon and he consistently out-published me. Because he's Chris Perkins. Really talented guy.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 you're a hero in your own right mate 😊
Has anyone played an E6 campaign for any length of time (basically the characters are capped at level 6 - it’s based on a study of story characters and an honest appraisal of what they could achieve in the story). What was that experience like?
It depends on the campaign. If the players are larger than life characters in a high fantasy wish-fulfillment campaign, then leveling up fast is thrilling. Expect a very short campaign.
If the game is a gritty, slow, dark reflection of human nature, where the biggest threats are psychological and societal, then prepare for leveling up to be a rare event. Expect a longer campaign with more memories and achievements that feel earned. Unless there is a TPK, which is okay so long as the players knew this was a possibility.
Exactly! I wish I had said that.
I enjoy ProfessorDMs thoughts.
I think people get to hung up on making the perfect encounter instead of a good one.
The campaign I plan on running eventually is kind of a combination of the Star Wars and Star Trek models. It will be a big story, with a definitive ending, but after that we will continue to play with new characters in the same world in the aftermath of the previous characters' adventure.
Cool!
Low level character journeys are different, yes, but not necessarily better or more engaging. I also concur that preparing a campaign adventure for a higher level party is more challenging. Again, it doesn’t have to be less fun or less story-based.
I agree. Thanks for commenting!
Knew a group that over the course of 28 sessions and a year and half, got from lvl 5 to...6...
1...,one, ONE fucking level in enough sessions to end a campaign, and there was only one guy complaining, but since the others where like "huh man i dunno isn't it supposed to be like this?", the DM was like " whats the matter?"
18 months for a lvl, and from lvl 5 to 6, nope..., 18 months where you're stuck with your lvl 1-5 class features and lvl 1-3 spells...
Oh god it gives me the urge to hurl...
I would have shot myself in the head with a grenade launcher.
There need to be a pacing where it doesn't feel too quick or too much of an afterthouhg" oh yeah here you got a new lvl, now back to busniness...", but this kind of slow crawl, my God..., its like watching paint dry in the Amazonian rainforest...
That Amazonian rainforest joke was pretty good. I'm stealing it.
the problem with slow leveling is that I don't have 10 years to give to this campaign, I already have new idea and I still hasn't started my new campaign.
So I'm all for the fast leveling
Hi, Mobius. I agree. Some DMs plan a 1-year campaign. In that case, faster leveling makes sense. If you want to run an open-ended campaign like min3 (30+ years), slower progression is a must.
Star Wars vs. Star Trek? How about X-Files, where you have an overall arc but side trek episodes along the way?
Didn't think of that. That's a good one too.
I lvl the group about every 4 games my group has been playing for about a year. With a few breaks the group is lvl 8.
Kind of how i do it but every level up i make it more sessions to reach the next level. So like level one and two is 2 sessions then level 3 and 4 is three sessions level 5 and 6 is four sessions and so on. My opinion is the higher the level the longer it should take to level up
@@matthewbarker4109 I like that model, thanks for your input. I was about to slow it up a little bit.
@@joshwasinger1087 you're welcome theres so many ways things can be done part of what makes it so fun
I love your advice Professor Dungeon Master, thank you SOOO much for bringing me such fun!
Oh Professor - what a perfectly evil tease. Now I will be waiting to watch all day long tomorrw.
Thanks for commenting!
I’ve been a dm for almost 10 yrs now....and I never understood DM fatigue. Maybe it’s cause I love the game and telling stories with my friends. Would I like to play as a normal PC every now and again? Sure...but I can just play those characters as NPCs in my game so it’s no big deal for me lol. Maybe I’m just the minority idk lol
We’re doing a more of a trek wars campaign
Looking forward to this one very much. I hope he talks about classes leveling differently.
They certainly should. Rogues first!
Prof. DM mentions this more in his 6 suggestions for 6 E.
Makes a lot of sense, would like that to be introduced again.
@@equaltocody I know, I made a comment there asking for a vid with how he would do it. I was hoping for that here, but still a good vid.
@Aaron Davis ...then don't do it.
@Aaron Davis I like the idea, but I'm also okay with it not being the case.
Personally, I like details like how a elf lives hundreds years longer than a human. In a tolkienesque world that would mean a wizard (low hit points needs tons of exp) would go hand in hand with that. It's a small systematic change that ripples out into the world building. Maybe it is a bit of a needles complication, but art is a needless complication.
That said, I'm also playing quick and dirty 5e, and I don't use any house rules, so it's all theoretical preference.
Thanks again for another great lesson professor 😊may all your rolls be 🎲20's
Thanks!
i'm currently sticking to the 1000 points per level theory in my game. I guess i will see how fast their leveling does with that base.
MAJ Mark Brown At higher levels it's going to go really fast. An adult blue dragon by itself is worth 15,000 experience. So 5 characters splitting that would get 3 levels
@@adamkaris Thanks. Yes i figured as we go i am going to have to adjust that number. Any suggestions of when the break point is?
Great stuff as always Professor DM. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with the world.
I had, for many years, always fallen into a trap of starting games at 1st level and by session 4 I just wanted the characters to be able to do something so I'd rapid level them to 5th level. This was usually in 3.5e.
Some time ago, I discovered your channel and started to listen to a lot of your advice on DMing and I adopted some of your concepts. Nowadays I like to start my campaigns at level 10, but treat it like 1st level. I up the difficulty similar to how you've described doing it, and I make the monsters smarter and more capable of killing the players. I've found that plenty of players have become repeat customers because they feel like their character can do something, but they also feel that fear. It's really eye opening for them when at their level, there are still beings in the game world that can paralyze without giving them a save, or monsters that can pummel them into the dirt if they're not careful.
Thank you Prof. for teaching me how to fix a lot of bad DM habits that 20 years doing things the same way had etched into my games. This video has also helped me, because now that I've adopted your XP system (the 1 - 5 xp per adventure/session and 10xp + milestone to level up) I've found that the power creep of the players has reduced dramatically.
It would be great to see a video on how to adapt modern class concepts into the blue cover AD&D edition. I love that version of the game the best, and I'd love to get a lot of friends who grew up with Pathfinder and beyond more interested in it by allowing them to play some of their favorite modern classes and races in the older rule set.
I really like this, buddy !! Starting the heroes with some set of cool skills, like they would be Apprentices, Novices... and setting them into a world of danger.
i was in shadowrun gang-campain for 9 years , when our chars became too strong the dm would make them into npcs
That’s one way to do it.
Enjoying the older content too👍👍 I actually redid the experience chart.
Cool, thanks
here's the comment for the algorithm
Fast leveling is only really fun if you are playing a murder hobo type game group and even then can get old so fast.
It does. Some people think I'm being a jerk but I'm actually trying to save their campaigns from an early death.
my players tend to always get the 300 - 400 xp mark in every session. so its all good with me.
what i have problems with is people staying during summer for the game. and we play fortnightly
@ 0:37 "... It's better to go too slow than too fast ..."
I could not agree more, Professor !!! 100% SPOT ON ! ✔ 👍😊 As is your assertion @ 1:43 "the DM is the most important Player in your game." 😃
I have won State competitions and DM'd for 5 or 6 Players for decades and I know the workload needed to DM. I love every minute, but there's a lot of work. 😵
Early on (Levels 1-3) ALL dice rolls are on the table in my games. Only after that do I consider rolling 'behind the screen' as need dictates... 😉 M 🦘🏏😎
Thanks for your kind works. Since we agree, I'd like to know your thoughts on this observation: "A DM is not a storyteller. We do not design stories, we design conflicts." That's the subject of a future video and I'd like your opinion.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Mate, I am in total conflict (pun intended) with the observation. Even a movie about fights such as "Fight Club" has an engaging story.
A series of conflicts without cohesion / story is just dice rolling. I always come back to the basic question for the Players - WHY are they having the conflict? THAT drives the game for me as DM and Player. I could go on and on..... 😉
Thanks for the opportunity to provide my opinion, Professor ! 🙏😔 M 🦘🏏😎
I totally love how "like my father before me" can meant at least 2 things in that conversation:
1st: Anakin came temporally before Luke;
2nd: Vader is physically before Luke, there!
MIND. BLOWN.
Yeah, and did you notice he makes a small gesture with his head towards his father when he says that.
Just played that adventure with the revanent last night. 10 out or 10.
Hey, thanks! Check out my latest content: ruclips.net/video/95zr1mmx4vM/видео.html
I agree that PCs leveling up is often a net-negative for a campaign. On a related topic, now that I've played in several 5e campaigns, after more than a decade away from the hobby, I've played mostly in campaigns where levels are handed out either "by milestone" or according primarily to the DM's subjective judgement of progress ("You've all been 6th level for a while now; it's time you got seventh level.") Every one of these variations makes leveling up feel hollow and unearned to me. In the case of milestone leveling--in two different WotC-published campaign books--I always felt we were being pulled along by the level necessary to succeed in the upcoming content, rather than earning our levels by overcoming the challenges we'd already faced. In the leveling-by-DM-judgment version, I feel like levels are being handed out as gifts, instead of earned. I realize that the actual calculating and accumulating of individual experience points imposes additional bookkeeping on the game, it also lets the players take pride in every advancement as something they earned through risk-taking and cleverness.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, Jeffrey. I've noticed the same thing about the DM awarding levels. It may be completely psychological, but when you earn XP to level up, it somehow feels like you "earned" it. It's weird and I can't explain it.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I think part of it may be that in the old days, if a player missed a session, he got no xp for it. But with group-based, non-xp leveling of any sort, everyone usually gets promoted at once, regardless of attendance. I've been told that keeping the whole party the same level makes it easier to plan encounters, but I would argue that with the "bounded accuracy" math in 5e, this is LESS true than ever.
I award 1 exp per session, when xp equals your level, you level up. Max level is 10 in my preferred system of 13th age. After they level up to 10, they become an "Icon" in the pantheon of powerful characters in my world, and leader of an organization.
Then they can make up quests to send low level parties on.
That sounds like a good system, Bill. I may have to try it...
@@brettsimpson1505 my players still get to "play" their high level characters, but they are acting in the background and playing the role of NPC "mentor."
If you get your players attached to their characters they will most of the time be fearful of what you toss at them.
Well, this could be helpful to me 5+ years ago... I got tired of this very topic at my table, so, i decided toss off leveling at all. Upgrading instead of levels are more fun.
Index card RPG doesn't have levels. Check it out!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 oh i just ended doing my own version with a bunch of house rules, much like you did with your own... Thanks for the advice, will do check it, tho
I greatly prefer lower level and starting at 0-level, go DCC
After 30 years of playing off and on, I've found the best days are the early ones before you have a lot of powers and hit points, because every move you make is clutch, and you don't get overwhelmed trying to remember abilities or items which are situational. There's definitely a tipping point during which the game transitions from creative problem solving (let's grease the bridge and taunt the fire giant into charging us) to resource management (thanks to our healer and regeneration potions, that ancient red dragon will never do enough damage to kill us; we'll drop it in no fewer than 12 rounds).
As for interesting characters, I'd say always give your character at least one living person less powerful than themselves that they care about. Also, if you can collaborate with another player to have your PC desperately want something (love, validation, respect, friendship) from their PC that their PC will never give your PC - you've got a great formula for inter-party conflict. You just have to be careful not to let it destroy the game.
Well said. If I could afford a staff writer, I'd hire you.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 That would finally make that MA in English worth it. I've a criminally low wisdom score though, so you could probably convince me to work for free.
After the sequel trilogy we all wished there was an end point to Star Wars lol
I take part in two D&D adventures every fortnight (alternating Tuesdays). I run one Campaign and my cousin runs the other. In this way, we both get to DM and we both get to play. One issue with this though is that we have very different DMing styles and deal with experience differently. My cousin uses a milestone system and I use a mixture of monster Exp and a Mercer style tally for good roleplay and general awesomeness.
The result of this is that in his campaign, the players are all level four already and in mine, they have only levelled up once or twice each (they sidestepped an enormous optional boss, otherwise it would just be once). Since my players have a point of comparison, they tend to feel that my methods are a little harsh or cruel. This is a joke of course but it a reoccurring one.
Stay strong. My players bust on me all the time. I'm cheap with treasure too so they get even cheaper--like instead of staying at an inn and ordering venison they'll say, "I camp outside the town walls and eat boiled bark I strip from the trees." Always follow your gut!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Thanks. That sounds like exactly my campaign and something I'd do as a player.
I just come here these days to have my opinions confirmed and validated. Top notch DM and Player advice as usual, Professor. All these perspectives aren't just practical, they enhance enjoyment of the game. These are things most older DMs know, but wish they'd known decades ago. These mini-lectures are absolute gold. Everyone except perhaps min-maxers or power gamers aught to be subbed to this channel with the bell checked, it is as essential as the DMG of any edition.
As always, great video, great information and great presentation!
Thanks, Adam!
Star Trek Mode: Post DS9 this is a little less accurate. Maybe the "X-Files Mode" might fit better...literally the monster-of-the-week.
I know what you mean, but I feel like he can still call it that. I mean, Next Gen is still the Trek gold standard. The modern muddle aspires to be TNG on its worst day.
I get what you're saying, but there's a loot more people who have seen original/tng star trek or experienced it through cultural osmosis, than there are people who could use the X-Files as a touch stone (I say as someone who enjoys The X-Files more, if I'm being honest). Plus "Star Trek/Star Wars" has a better ring and memorability to it for the cherry on top, imo.
Making higher-level adventure challenges for some muscle, magic, and skills may get hard to do. But when those groups are ultra-specialized and at high levels, the number of options makes it that much harder to cater to a generic high-level audience. I'd push for keeping characters "generic" as a big part of solving this problem. D&D classes have gotten so ridiculously specialized that it's almost impossible to design challenges for higher levels. There aren't druids anymore. They're Moon Lunar Spirit of the Frog Bog Log Path specialized to the point where it's hard to make something generalized enough for one party and another to experience the same sort of adventure and challenge. DMing shouldn't be like running an HR department for a company with too many specialized departments. It should be about fighters, wizards, and thieves doing stuff with some trackers, healers, and maybe some alchemists doing backup roles to keep the adventures going. That should be enough. That can be fun. Remember fun? "Nah, I'd rather figure out which way to max out my AC," say too many players.
Warforged forge cleric alchemist artificer XD
I remember a 3e variant called Epic 6 that basically capped levels at 6, and you just gained feats every few thousands of XP. The idea behind was basically that 3e campaigns were more enjoyable at that range of levels, and it seems that tendency sticks with 5e
It's a classic time sink verse Skinner box. Psychologically, things are devalued in our minds when they come quickly and easily. For instance the Skinner box scenario of pushing a button and getting a treat can give instant gratification but eventually it loses meaning. Whereas when it takes time and effort to achieve things it is common for people to associate those things with higher value and remember them more fondly because of the effort it took to gain.
THIS is the stuff I wish I had said. If I had a staff and I had money, I'd hire you as staff writer.
I had an eight-year D&D game that took my PCs to level 18. Creating anything remote challenging for them was near impossible. What created the great moments was cataclysmic-like events where I simply ruled that this is so powerful it ages the character who sacrifices himself. Having the beloved, human PNPC age fifty years in half an hour of game play was one of the single-most gripping events they had. Peril brings challenge; challenge makes it interesting.
I now have a ten-year-old Hackmaster campaign. My highest-level PC is level ten. I enjoy it; they enjoy it. Less XP has simply made it more enjoyable for everyone.
Sometimes I love professor Dungeon Master, sometimes I hate him. Today, it’s love.
Anytime I talk about my past games or how I DM, nine-out-of-ten people say they would never play in my game.
• 1) I keep you poor. No, you don’t get 300 GP for rescuing a kitten from a tree. If goblins were rich they wouldn’t need to raid your lands. At low levels, be happy you can afford to travel, maintain your equipment, and feed yourself.
100 gold is meaningful and may need to last a while. If a farmer or local merchant can make it happen -- (with much less cash on hand!) -- so can a 4th level character. It’s time to prioritize armor, weapon, spell, transport, etc.
• 2) I don’t hand out a ton of XP. Take the time to learn the ins and outs of your current level before progressing to the next. Just because you’ve cast fireball a couple of times doesn’t mean you’re ready for the next level. Cherish each level. I’m not going to let the game grow beyond you, but I’m also going to take care that you don’t grow beyond it.
In my most talked about Earthdawn campaign -- (from the 90's) -- we played every week in 8-hour sessions for 2.5 years. At the end, the highest circle (level) character was 9th, and most were 7th-8th circle. Roughly the equivalent of 9-12th level in AD&D.
People poo-poo this slower leveling style… until they play it. In my experience, the majority will complain and argue at first (or simply not play at all), and call me a control freak GM who’s only out to get the players. However, invariably, the ones who play slowly come around to find it some of the most fun in RPG gaming they’ve had.
This doesn’t happen because I’m a great GM, I’m not. I’m a serviceable GM. It’s because I keep the players wanting more -- what’s around the next corner or just one more turn, so to speak; a reason for the characters to keep adventuring. Every session they look forward to coming closer to their goals, or maybe even obtaining them this time... just to see new goals (quests, spells, money, fame, whatever) dangled before them.
I have never felt fear in a DnD (3.0+) or Pathfinder/Starfinder game. They are boring... or maybe the GMs are bad, I don't know.
I have to find other games/systems (e.g. Forbidden Lands) to capture the sense of character attachment and anxiety I remember from gaming in the 80s and 90s.
Professor DM, my players are starting to get obsessed with multi-classing, and this bothers me because they often want class mixes that don't fit their characters' stories (e.g. a half-ork barbarian who wants to multi-class as a bard even though he has NO exposure to and NO familiarity with the bardic arts). I don't want these players to leave or feel dissatisfied, so I'm thinking of working things into the story that would make it make sense, but that's going to take some time, some traveling by the characters, and a few play sessions. I'm worried the players might get impatient. What do you do when players get impatient?
Honestly i would just let them multi class. Start with the lower levels as you get time to build the story. Then when they are level 3 the story is more advanced and they players can pick subclasses
I don't let players multi-class without actually roleplaying the transition/addition of another class. Multi-classing has become an abusive metagame tactic to combine abilities that a character normally wouldn't have access to. Players RARELY do this because they think its a cool concept for a character's story... I also require them to have a 14+ in the primary stat of the class they are attempting to add before they can even attempt it. In those rare events, I have the player roleplay out finding someone to train them (it can't be another player!) and have them spend serious downtime training, studying etc. before they are able to gain the benefits of a level in another class- and it's expensive as hell. Player's like it when THEY multiclass, but watch how quickly they cry foul when you whip out an Ogre Barbarian/Druid that can shifts into a grizzly bear and rages...
I level my players to 3rd within two sessions and then slow things down. From there I mix my rewards more; story, wealth, items, plot stuff, level up. Then around 5th or 6th building strongholds and collecting followers is more fun than leveling for players. Once we hit 8th though I speed things towards some epic climatic end and wrap it up.
I don't think you're alone. I've had several DMs speed me through levels 1 and 2 because they're too afraid they're going to kill the characters. Just take some DM authority and give the monsters lower AC! Don't you watch Dungeon Craft?!
The pace I'm hoping to set as a baseline for my campaigns is have character levels be roughly the square root of the number of sessions played.
Sounds interesting. Let me know how that turns out. I'm curious.
Thanks this was insightful and reassuring as your thoughts are echoing my style of DMing
I just throw stuff I think will be fun. Sometimes it's really challenging and the party almost wipes, other times they stomp it easily. I don't prep to have a baseline challenge. For me it's "Oh, this looks like fun." or "I bet throwing a spellslinging cowboy will be fun." and that's my prep.
I like leveling up. I like the storytelling and interactions happening. I think what happens to destroy a group is when the characters and stories are forcing us to be become murder hobos.
I want new ways to approach a problem along with situations that force us apart via traps or ethics. I want to level up an ability when I study an opponent enough or study it in relevant circles of education in-game.
I'm not fond of only knowing fire abilities but when they level up, they magically know a form of healing. I want to see my opponents heal, or for my character to get bludgeoned enough to escape and only learn the ability after being taken to a medic or church.
I find it difficult to play a game with high level intelligent monsters and make it feel realistic. If a minor demon has really good 'create illusion' ability, the characters would never even know that they fought that demon (if fighting ever even happened -- I actually think illusionists are the most powerful creatures out there). Thinking about a foe like that, one can ask how good they would be at using dastardly combinations of spells and politics if they have had hundreds of years to think about it and ridiculous resources at their disposal. Personally, I dumb-down illusions in my game, but the same could be said for lots of other spells. And, certainly, politics always gets dumbed-down. Like many DMs, my favourite level to play and DM for is around 3rd.