If the transceiver is connected to grounding rod that is different than the one close to the mains panel, I think electric code is not violated as long as the two different grounding rods are bonded with 6 gauge or larger. The additional grounding rod near the transceiver is likely encouraged for lightening safety by providing a larger capacity path to "earth", instead of the 12 or 14 gauge path provided at the wall plug.
You would be correct! This does not constitute as a grounding loop! It would be if not connected to the mains AC Safety Ground for the structure or house...
Thank you, Jim. Your video just confirmed what I have been learning over many years. I have watched many of Mike Holt's videos. His videos on grounding and bonding are superb. N0QFT, Ph.D, ATH
Jim, thanks for this and I'm really looking forward to the next part(s) in the series. I'm particularly interested in the use of ferrite beads (and a good source would be appreciated) and in the similarities and differences between voltage/current baluns and ununs. I've been reading a lot about these transformers and there seems to be quite a lot of different thoughts on them. So, I'm looking at both the theory of operation and practical construction of these useful devices. Thanks!
Very timely discussion as I am considering relocating my radio room from an outside building to a spare room in the house. When I set up the existing room, I did everything I read to be “the way” to do it: 1. I installed a copper bus bar on the wall behind my equipment. 2. I grounded ALL equipment to that bus bar. 3. I had a licensed electrician run a separate 30-amp circuit from the service box SOLELY to power the radio equipment. 4. A Polyphaser PLDO-120US20A surge protector is grounded to the bus bar; plugs into the above circuit outlet and all equipment is plugged into that device. 4. I sunk three 8-foot earthing rods around my tower which is located a yard or so distant from my radio room. 5. The three earthing rods are bonded to the tower legs AND to the utility earthing rod. 6. A wide copper strap connects the radio room bus bar to coax entrance panel then to the earthing rods. 7. All antenna cables pass thru Alpha Delta COAX surge protectors. Now... If I vacate that room and set up a new radio room in my house, are you saying that I don’t need to duplicate all that rigamarole and just go with simply plugging my equipment directly into house outlets... bonding all equipment with a bus bar and connecting that bus bar to the utility ground? Sure would make things easier.
Thank you! This is exactly what I thought but you hear so many “expert” opinions. I value your opinion and appreciate your channel so much! God bless you and 73
I just watched your CQ video from 2016 and I read in the comments of your health challenges. I basically just came to your channel just to see if you're still posting and was relieved to see that you are.
one of the best ways to learn about station grounding is to buy the book "Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur" By H. Ward Silver. You can get it from the ARRL or at Amazon as a Kindle book or paperback. I have it on my Kindle and read it on my phone. It is very good for clearing up many misunderstandings. I have over 30 years experience setting up SSB and other electronics on boats and I learned a lot from this book. K6DCH
Jim, the timing for your series about Grounding, Bonding, Earthing, Shielding, and Protecting comes at a propitious time for me. I am presently reading Ward Silver's book on the subject. I am hoping maybe you could illustrate your points with video examples or photos of how you have your shack set up and an accompanying explanation of why it is the way it is in relation to the subject at hand.In the meantime, I hope you are doing well. I do enjoy your channel.
Jim, Thank you for your wisdom on this issue and many others. I enjoy your videos. I am a new ham. I live on the east coast - in a high lightning area so Grounding, Bonding, RF and Lightning Protection are of great interest/concern to me. I have a 2nd floor shack in the making that is located diagonally opposite from the electrical panel (>140' either direction on the perimeter from directly beneath the shack to the electrical panel.) I have an "Ufer" ground system. So I spoke with the Electrician that wired my home about the NEC and local codes. He said I should put in a local ground rod(s) near the shack and "bond" them to the "Ufer" ground by way of a cold water pipe. All the cold water pipes and natural gas pipes are bonded to the "Ufer" ground system by NEC rules. That keeps the additional ground rod(s) at the same potential as the electrical panel. This approach appears to be consistent with Chapter 6 "Good Practices Guidelines" in "Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur" by H. Ward Silver, N0AX, ARRL 2017 and consistent with my reading about Bonding in R56. So, those diagrams in the equipment manuals are missing a note that the grounding rod must be either the electrical panel ground or "bonded" to that ground system. I think?
The cold water pipes would eliminate more expensive copper wire investment. I happen to have an armload of tinned copper braid that would fill the bill, as my shack is very close to the bathroom sink. All I need are some proper sized ring connectors. I`ll be taking this under consideration. Thanks for the input.
I am fortune to have a nearby outdoor water spigot with the copper supply tubing buried 18 inches deep as my bonding connection. That way I am not inviting RF or lightning into my house - with any luck. Having suffered two previous lightning strikes at this location, I am trying to be a bit cautious in my approach.
The ARRL grounding book also suggests to avoid having solder used in your ground. If you tie your shack ground to the bathroom sink copper pipe, make sure the pipe does not have elbows soldered together. (If lightning does strike and it melts the solder in your pipes, then you might have water leakage.)
Hi Jim, Thanks for your videos. I'm sure everyone can tell, you put a lot of thought into them. I've run into a head scratcher. I have a mobile home where I've just set up my station. I was going to ground my equipment to the electric panel ground. I discovered that the panel ground goes to the metal framework under the floor, not an earthing rod. I further found a loose, (not connected) ground wire partially buried that runs to the electric meter in my yard. I rang it out with a meter. I think the disconnection may have been done while fixing some grounding issues I had 5-6 years ago that the electric co. repaired. I believe the home is grounded, (earthed) thru the tie down stakes that bolt to the framework. I did an outlet check that shows I'm correctly wired. I'm using an Icom 5100A as a base powered thru a 13.8v pow. supply and a Diamond dual band vertical ant. on a 25' fiberglass push up mast, located some 20' from station room. What do you think is best way to ground, also antenna lightning protection recommendation. I haven't transmitted yet. Just trying to do best setup prior. Thank you, Lee W6LTV
Well, that's not good. You can transmit without a ground. I did for decades on Wolf Mountain. Make absolutely certain that the wiring in the house IS CORRECTLY GROUNDED! That AC ground must be connected per NEC or your local code which is likely the same as NEC. Tie all of that together and grounded to whatever they used (likley a ground rod). I would not depended on the supports for grounding. And at this point you have no way to determine if in fact the house wiring is grounded. Your local utility may be willing to come out and help at no charge. It is a safety issue. By coincidence, I hope to install my grounding at the new QTH today or tomorrow. Two #8 for the AC ground conductor back to the Ufer ground rod along with a 2 inch wide copper strip. That strip will run from the desk to the common ground point as a continuous run of about 30 feet across the garage ceiling. Back to your situation, check to see if you have aluminum wiring for convenience outlets. That was common in some modulars. Good luck on the project. 73, Jim W6LG
This is something I’ve wondered about, so I appreciate your coverage. I want a safe and effective setup. It is too bad there is so much conflicting information about grounding. It would be interesting to see empirical tests of different scenarios.
Jim, technically it is not prohibited by the NEC in 250.54 concerning Auxilary Electrodes, but it should be as it can cause all sorts of problems with differences in potential (see Mike Holt in ruclips.net/video/WlnFNTay-9Q/видео.html). I realize you're getting more at RF grounds, but the simple way to fix the situation is to install a bonding jumper (that heavy 6AWG wire) from all of your antennas, amp, radio, etc. to the grounding electrode system of your home's electrical service so that they are all at the same potential. I would argue that your antennas are not grounded and bonded unless the coax is bonded to your home's grounding electrode system. You can simply use a intersystem bonding termination to make this connection (where all your home's cable, telephone, satellite etc. wires should be bonded) or if you MUST use your own ground rod make sure it is about 6' away from your home's electrical grounding electrode (rod, pipe or plate) and most importantly BOND the two together so all is at the same potential! Simply saying its a violation of the NEC to have two grounding systems in not necessarily true and just creates confusion for hams of what to do. Despite what people think, doing this will not create all sorts of EMI, etc. on their system and is much safer. So much dangerous misinformation out there.
Jim, I appreciate your attempt to clear up these misconceptions. I hate to rehash or throw in specific situational questions but I have been unable to clear up my grounding questions. I am in the process of installing two base antennas at my house. My house electrical system ground consists of a ground rod (On opposite side of the house from the antennas) which is bonded via a 4 or 6 gauge wire to a cold water pipe in my crawl space. All water piping is copper including the run to the meter at the street. This is how the house was built and not a later retrofit. My plan currently is to add a 8 foot ground rod on the antenna side of my house, this ground rod will be the closest point where both antennas masts can ground to a common point. I will attach: the ground from a 4010 EFHW antenna ground connection and its 10' mast, the ground from a gable mounted dual band antenna mast and the grounds from lighting arresters from each of two coax cables, all to this new ground rod. To meet NEC. requirements for a common ground I will then bond the new ground rod to a 3/4" cold water pipe exiting the building about 5 feet away with a 6 gauge copper ground wire. I believe that in fact I will have created what the NEC. refers to as an "intersystem ground" I am assuming this would meet the requirements of the NEC. to bond separate tower and mast grounds to the building grounding system. I've come up with this plan after trying to interpret the NEC. article 810: 20-21, article 250, and after reading a publication called "Reeve - Antenna System Bonding And Grounding Requirements in the USA." From what electrical training I've had I reason that bonding the two grounds together eliminates differences in potential to ground and both the antennas and the electrical system in the house will have the same potential to ground which would not be the case if they were separate and not bonded. I am not planning to add a ground at the radio cases ground studs as I believe the ground from the coax shield should be sufficient. My power supply is grounded through the house electrical system via a ground on the 3 prong plug. If I do find a need to ground the radios at the ground screws for some type of RF interference I would probably only run a ground wire from the radio to the case of the power supply which as I said is grounded through the power cord. Running a wire from the second story of my house to the crawl space or to the back of the house is not practical. I respect your knowledge and experience in this matter and would like your input. Thanks
I understand the concern about differences in potential among various earth grounds located at the service entrance, the radio room, etc. Local code here requires neutral and safety ground to be bonded at the service entrance, but NOT at any subpanels, and subpanels must have their own earth ground rods. My concern about grounding a ham station only via the building's safety ground wiring is what I perceive to be a fire hazard, should the station receive a significant lightning strike through the antenna system. I can't see the 12- or 14-gauge Romex ground conductor serving to safely conduct the energy of a strike to an earth ground located some distance away at the service entrance. I'm especially uneasy at the thought of that strike energy traversing a 14-gauge conductor buried in walls and spliced with wire nuts.
Jim, I respectfully disagree with your "one ground" rule. Have you read the new ARRL Grounding and Bonding book? It references NEC, Motorola's R65 and military standards. As you know a number 12 wire running back to the breaker box is good for AC safety but can be a poor RF ground due to its length. A separate earth ground very close to the equipment makes a better RF ground and is a ground for surge arrestors and rotator cables. Also metal towers require their own ground system. What makes it work functionally and legally is to bond all earth ground rods together with a heavy conductor, #6 AWG minimum and at least 6 feet apart. The book also talks about UPPER FLOOR STATIONS, ferrite, welded ground rod connections and RF ground planes (something DX Engineering picked up on recently). I believe this book should be required reading for any Ham that goes beyond a hand held HT. 73 K9AEE
I agree there's a lot of good info in that book, And I also have to disagree with using the power safety ground for the station ground. Although according to the NEC (NFPA70) All grounds are supposed to be bonded together. And I have heard good arguments against that also. Anyway, good video and discussion. Grounding in the real world is more kin to black magic...
@@clems6989 :: so why can't all roads lead back to home? If you're going to trench around your entire home inlay double Ott and bond it to 8ft grounding rods at regular intervals why can't you attach 6 AWG to the grounding post used by the electrical system? At least then everything is connected at the same ground potential. I always ground my Towers separately. When I dig the hole I get down all the way to the bottom and I pound an 8-foot ground rod in at the center and then I run a piece of double lot UPS through the center of the cement before it's poured and attach it to a leg of the Tower. The better way to do it is to run a piece of ABS down so that if the tower takes is strike and it is routed to the ground it doesn't blow the hell out of these cement and shatter it in the process. I've been doing this for about 40 years and there's no perfect solution. But I am looking for as close to perfect as I can find and it seems that amongst all the experts each has a different opinion of how it should be done. I have the R_65 guide by Motorola and if I go by that why would I want to go and buy the ARRL book? Just a question. Basically, what's in it for me?
JustAnotherGuy Hello, I am trying to learn about grounding and have been getting a lot of opinions on this as well. I get that the electric ground is probably not adequate during a lightning strike as the long wire to the electrical box ground rod may have too much inductance for the lightning to flow that way. My approach is to bond the rods together to pass NEC, but how do I keep lightning ought of the shack or the building I am trying to protect with these various ground rods? NOTE: I am no expert in this so please be kind. -)
I have a grounding question for new "Shack" I'm putting together. I have an older house in a really rural area. outside of town, built in 52 I think. It still has Fuse box with the round twist fuses. It passed home inspection and when I plug in my Fluke outlet checker all the outlets pass correct wiring test. My main question is on adding my tower to the grounding system. I plan on adding a box on the tower that has a copper plate with PolyPhaser Lightning arrestors with #4 ground cable running to multiple 8' Ground rods. However, I can not find any other ground rods for the existing grounding to tie into... I always hear, just adding your own ""Secondary" ground rod is a violation of the NEC or whatever... I have looked all the way around the house at the Power pole where the meter is and out by the well pump. I have found zero rods. I want to add 3-6 8' Rods around my tower, but what do I need to tie them into to join the rest of the grounding system. Great video and thanks for your time. -Scott, 73s!!!
I've noticed when the term "ground" used, it can mean one of several different situations. There's the equipment grounding conductor (EGC) the Mike Holt really emphasizes in his NEC code classes. There's the earth ground rod (or equivalent). There's RF ground to keep RF away from people. There's lighting protection grounds. They all share common terms and components but perform different functions.
After reading some of the comments, I think everyone is making this subject harder than it needs to be. “One Ground to rule them all” is my motto. What follows is my perspective on this issue and carries no guaranty or warranty as to accuracy or completeness. I provide it for simple discussion on the subject matter. Local Code is the law. If no local code use National Electrical Code (NEC). Boding: an electrical connection to keep all points at the same potential. For bonding to work, it has to be… • Low-Z and “short” at the frequencies of interest • Heavy enough to carry the expected current • Sturdy enough to survive the environment AC Ground • It is that third (round) prong on the AC plug. Grounding is for safety. Use it. • Bond all ground rods together using minimum #6 AWG copper. If you have one at the antenna, or where the cable comes into the house, etc., they all must be bonded to the house electrical panel ground rod. You can have as many as you want, as long as they are all bonded together with minimum #6 AWG copper. See NEC 250. • Intersystem Bonding: NEC 250.94. The bonding bar shall be connected to the grounding electrode conductor with a minimum 6 AWG copper conductor. RF Management: Everything in the station is an antenna. • Forget about an “RF ground” • Concentrate instead on bonding • Equalize voltage to minimize current Bonding Radio Equipment: My transceiver only has DC going to it. There is no grounded AC plug. So I bond the transceiver to the ground bar along the back of my desk using the manufacturer’s supplied ground post on the back of the case, per manufacturer's instructions. This ground bar along the back of my desk is connected to the intersystem bonding bar. One ground system. While this DC may not be much, if anything goes wrong, I want the voltage to go to ground and blow the fuse on my DC distribution system and not go through me.
Thank you. Keep in mind that there is bonding, grounding and earthing. The bonding wires are better for conducting RF if they are straps. Think of the strap being "flat and wide." Run a flat wide strap from the equipment to aq common buss bar. Then from that buss bar to a common earthed rod with all other "grounds". That wire from the buss bar to the common point ground (earth) should also be flat and wide. All ground wires, earth wires connect at the same point to that common ground. That is my read of the NEC with help from phone calls to several experts like Mike Holt. 73, Jim
@@ham-radio I agree regarding wide strips of metal. I use the method outlined in Chapter 24 of the ARRL’s Handbook. Chapter 24 also has pictures and illustrations regarding Single Point Ground Systems. I believe a lot of the confusion comes from the various electrical terms. Chapter 28 of the handbook does a great job of defining those terms. Properly defining the terminology goes a long way towards understanding the concepts. The three goals of AC Safety Grounding, Lightning Protection, and RF Management can be accomplished with one comprehensive system. Thanks.
Hi Jim, Great video and it makes a lot of sense. I believe all this grounding came form back in the day before electrical regulations got stricter and everyone used Valve or Tube rigs as you might call them. Here in Ireland most homes in the last 30-40 years have a earth system via the 3 pin plug which goes back to the fuse panel and is then connected to a ground rod and protected further via RCD protection which kills power if current exceeds 30 ma. I'm not sure when RCD protection became standard. So my question has always been why earth the ham equipment if it's connected to the house system earth ? in my opinion if the shack grounder is a lower resistance there could be a danger where current endlessly flows to the separate ground system with no chance for cutting the power because it never reaches the RCD back in the fuse panel. I believe that RCD sockets should be fitted to the ham shack socket outlets as it "helps" protect against electrical faults. As you rightly pointed out , RF issues should be eliminated before they reach the shack. I say if someone wants to earth the antenna against lightning and static then this should be done outside the shack using the Coax shield.
Even if you bring all your equipment grounds back to the panel there's no reason to use greater than #6 wire. Why? Because your panel is connected to the ground rod by #6 or #8 copper wire. It's like using 2 inch water pipes inside your home when your water supply is 1 1/2 inch. Using lower impedance items like strapping in the shack won't give you lower impedance if it still goes through your standard house ground.
@@ham-radio Hi Jim, I amended my earlier comment about the #4 wire, it was in error. I amended it to include the items about everything going into that #6 wire house ground. My point was to temper the urge to spend big money on ultra conductive copper equipment in the station, just to send into a single #6 wire connected to a ground rod. Sort of anticlimactic. Totally agree with everything about using the existing house ground, I even commented earlier about my agreeing on the necessity of the third prong in a plug. Anyways, 73 Jim, be well!
Interesting videos. Thanks for doing them. Do you have a video where, lets say, you have a radio, power supply, computer, and an outside antenna....where do you use the chokes, ferrite beads...etc? Or should I just buy the Palomar Engineers kit? de KQ1K
Thanks Jim. It looks like the way of doing it the way I have heard from engineers. I suppose the common wisdom surrounding grounding ham gear seems to be in question. I look forward to further instruction from you and others. The comment section is fascinating. too. KC3BXZ Joe P.S.--- I seem to have heard that bolts of lightning can strike the ground around earthing rods, causing current to travel back to the whole shebang.
Since you mentioned the ferrite cores, could you perhaps go into a bit more detail in one of your future videos about the ferrite core specifics? I did my university studies in electrical engineering, but later on went into signal processing, so I might be a bit out of touch, but back when we did AC circuit analysis at the uni, we always expected to have information about the inductivities we're using. My experience when researching the ferrite cores commonly sold to hams for EMI suppression purposes, was that they sometimes have physical dimensions specified, but only extremely rarely provide any usable information about the ferrite material itself, making it very difficult to estimate performance of the ferrite before purchasing it. So is there a better way of figuring out what the core do, other then getting them and hoping for the best?
Before ufer grounds were used, it was common practice to use two ore more grounding rods for dry ground. All of these ground rods are required to be bonded at a central location. From what I understand with the ARRL handbook, all grounds need to be bonded together. One of my AC to DC power bricks is not grounded on the DC side and needs to be grounded separately.
Steam Utah mine is just sooo far away from where my radio ground is and I have a sprinkler system that would make it a nightmare to do. I also can’t go direct making it that much more difficult. Think I’m going to put a second ground rod in away from the house to hopefully pull lightning away.
Now I am really confused. Like you, I live in the mountains near Big Bear Lake California and an altitude of 6700 ft. During our monsoon season between July and September we have terrible thunderstorms. I have read instructions where you should take double Ott and surround your entire house with it buried at least 6 inchs underground. At connection points you should use double Ott and there is a chemical reaction fusing compound that welds the two together. I didn't go quite that far as a whole house but close. Also, when it came to my galvanized steel tower we dug the hole 6 feet deep ( we doubled the manufacturer's recommendations on everything because of being in a moderate wind area and it was a freestanding tower ) and at the bottom of the pit drove an 8-foot copper-clad ground rod down as deep as we could and still be able to attach an acorn clamp to attach double Ott. We brought the double Ott up through the cement and attached it with a brass tooth clamp to a tower leg. The expectation was now the tower was well grounded. It later dawned on me that we should have run the double Ott up through a piece of ABS because if the tower took a strike it could potentially crumble the cement. I have even read that you should ground your tower with a triangle of grounding rods! Or the entire house! www.hunker.com/12482068/how-to-ground-my-house None the less, I believed we had a very good ground. The way I tested it was with a 100 watt light bulb where I connected one side of an AC outlet to the bulb and the other side to the ground that we had brought into the shack. The bulb fully illuminated indicating we had an excellent ground. Now you've thrown a monkey wrench into my corn flakes! Are you really telling me that the only ground I need is a third prong attached at a standard electrical outlet? In the shack I use numerous Belkin power strips that are rated at 30 amps and not cheap plastic ones either. They are three wire and have an MOV in line to protect against spikes. I to use RFI snap on chokes. So what you're saying is that I don't need to run double Ott all the way around my shack until it meets again and then running into the house?
lighting is attacked by static leaders or where static is dissipating in the atmosphere from you tower, antenna, coax, and any other metal structures on your property. An improper ground allows Statc Leaders to be produced. I have been studying Lighting and Tessla's theory and others ideas for ears now.
@@DirtNerds :: I sincerely don't mean to be rude but your typographical errors and out of context statements are of no help. I like those of us that have had our ham licenses for 40 years know how a Tesla coil works. That has nothing to do with how you ground your station. With all due respect.
@@justanotherguy3850 what i posted has nothing to do with a Tesla coil(Tesla did far more). I deleted the comment so you will be happy! Boils down to Grounding is everything in a good station.
@@DirtNerds :: I really don't want to be rude. You didn't need to delete your post but you made direct reference to Tesla and how you were studying his experiments and made a correlation to how lightning affects us. Many of us built Jacob's Ladder early in the 1970s. It's my opinion for whatever it's worth it if you're a ham you need to remember first and foremost to be of help and not try to show how much more you know than the average ham. Your reply that I'm now replying to is condescending. You need to learn to play nice. I have been an extra class for more than 40 years. I simply asked a question about better grounding since I'm planning on moving to Alabama where the frequency of thunderstorms is much greater than it is in California. Just because I asked a question does not imply that I'm an idiot and condescending remarks are not helpful. You're probably thinking, what's condescending remark? Telling me that you deleted a post so now I should be happy. It's best you not reply.
@@justanotherguy3850 Tesla did many experiments in regards to lighting, I have been researching as well for several years, I live right next to 144KV electrical lines and have been asked many times if i have a lot of electrical noise or have issues with lighting. just was offer what has worked well for me the past 30+ yrs. Sorry sometime I don't convey my thoughts very clear.
Since we are to have 1 ground for the home, how about towers? I help teach a Technician class and the safety portion says that a tower should have a ground rod for each leg of the tower, and then a heavy conductor connected between tower and these ground rods. What about those rods (I do realize they are for lightning protection)
My ufer ground emerges from under the house and manifests in about 6" of exposed 6ga bare copper wire just below the meter. I can bond my station ground to at that point. I don't find anything in the NEC that says to bonding wire has to be buried, only that if it is exposed it must be secured to whatever surface and protected from damage.
I have a question. I intend to run an 891 in the house with a tuner and regulated power supply. Grounding the power supply should protect all three things? My other question is when you do field day in a park and power off battery you still need a proper ground don’t you. How do you properly ground everything in the field.
I live in a very old house with 2 prong outlets through out the house. Whatever 3 prong grounded extension cords or outlet strips have to be run into a two prong adapter to be used. That being said I have run all of my equipment to an outside ground and use ferrite beads on everything in the shack. Can't afford to have the house rewired so not sure else what I can do.
Much of the 2 prong outlets I have seen were in metal boxes that may have been grounded with a third wire heading back to the panel. (The center screw of the outlet cover "could" be that ground.) If this is the case for you, I would suggest you bond your grounds together with 6awg wire if possible. (The 6awg would go from rod to rod, or also from your station rod directly to the panel.)
Jim, I find this information confusing to say the least. Since the AC plug is already going to the panel ground (through the third prong), is there any need to even use the grounding post on the back of my transceiver? If so, should it be a heavy gauge wire? What do you recommend?
I guess I'm not understanding. By your comments only the house ground should be used but all the books I've read show running ground from the back of radios and equipment to ground rods tied to the house ground. Whats correct?.
ive always wondered why there was a ground nut on the back of radios??? I thought it was grounded when I plugged it into the wall with a three prong grounded electrical plug??? or in the case of 12 volt the black wire going to the negative of the battery which should have a ground to the chassis of the body of the vehicle???
I have two power supplies. One has the black wire tying to the house ground and the other one does not. Hopefully, your power supply has the black wire tying to the grounding pin.
I disagree. You seem to think these ground points are for reducing RF interference. E0A01 Lighting Protection is the primary function of an external earth connection or ground rod. E9D12 An electrically short connection to 3 or 4 interconnected ground rods driven into the Earth is the best RF ground for your station.
I agree, my ground rods are mainly for RF and lightning protection. Going back to the box like Jim is suggesting is stupid. You'll be exposing your house to taking in lightning if you get a strike. All you need to do is bond your ground rods to the house ground. In my house it's the incoming water line. That will satisfy NEC. Running your ground to the panel is a big mistake. Don't do it.
I think the bigger mistake is most newer houses us 14 awg wire from the outlet to the panel where if you tie your thick braid to is a higher resistance. If you have multiple ground rods and bond them all together, doesn't it mean they are all a "single" ground point? (The ARRL handbook and the NEC suggest to use 6awg when bonding grounds.)
@@gn02020202 No, because you don't ground all of your equipment to every grounding rod. You spread it out. My career is telecommunications so I provide a backbone for cellular services. At these towers, I've noticed every leg of the tower has its own ground. And it is always 10 awg, solid, unshielded copper wire. And the same with every terminal at that site. If you want to test any ground for lightning protection this is what I know for fact. The Bell Corp. or AT&T standards are this. Take one lead of your OHM meter and stick it in the ground. Take the other lead and place it on your grounding point. If you read 600 ohms of resistance, you're protected.
@@mattk.5258 Using your water line as a grounding source is a bad idea. Most water lines are only conductive for a few inches outside the house. Then they tie into a plastic line.
Look I know Jims point is T0B11 , Local electrical codes establishes grounding requirements for an amateur radio tower or antenna. But I have to go by experience and what I've seen deployed by organizations bigger , and more established than the ARRL.
Thanks for the video. I have been getting conflicting advice from internet experts and Elmers locally on this subject. I agree with you on the NEC as I have read it (skimmed it). What concerns me is lightning protection. I don’t want to bring RF into the shack but I certainly don’t want to have lightning in their either. I realize I may loose the forward facing (equipment closes to the antenna feeds) for a lightning strike but I want to make the lightning not come into the shack or the house if I can help it. Thoughts? 73, from a #HamInTraining
One thing to think about is a disconnect or disconnects that are outside. You literally pull the plug on all cables. I have done that for years. We were hit twice at the electrical lines and damage was done to other things but not the ham equipment. Since I am building a new radio room in a new location, I will be discussing the grounding issues (which are confusing). 73, Jim
Jim W6LG thanks for the reply. I am planning on using a external panel from DX engineering where I will mount my arrestors and would be a good place to disconnect as you say. Of course you have to know ahead of time to disconnect. Thanks again, 73.
How do lightning arrestors change the grounding system? Does the ground rod that has the arrestors need to be tied to the electrical panel ground? Or does the coax shield connected to the transceiver which is then tied to the AC panel ground count as sufficient? Thanks.
Both ground rods need to be bonded together with a suggested 6 awg wire. If you can bond them both outside the house and inside the panel. Most newer houses have 14 awg wire heading back to the panel from the outlet.
We live in a mobile home and they have 2 grounds, one to the electrical power meter and one to the steel frame. The panel is difficult to get a wire to, so if i was to drive a earthing rod in near the operating position the run a large conductor over to the main electrical ground rod. The rods would be about 15 - 20 feet apart. Would this cover what has been discussed. Thanks de N9TDE
It is my understanding and that of many others that way you are adding a ground rod is a violation of the NEC and could pose a hazard. All grounding conductors should be, must be bonded to the common ground. That is my understanding. You should check with local authorities. To that end, I did inspect the electrical connection to many mobile homes when I was a Deputy Building Inspector many years ago. You could do this. Add a copper pipe running horizontally below the desk. Run separate wide strap from the equipment as needed to the pipe. From the pipe run a flat wide conductor to the common ground near the panel 73, Jim
I just received a YAESU FP-1030A power supply. The "Grounding terminal" is a rinky-dink, TINY screw on the bottom of the case... no feasible way to attach a braided cable or strap. The rest of my powered equipment is singly grounded to the grounding bar in my shack and thence to a set of ground rods just outside. Here's my question... Without a decent factory supplied grounding point, what is my best course of action... ONE, no ground strap at all... or TWO, drill a hole in the case and bolt the ground strap to it? Many thanks
It sounds like a ground or earthing strap is not needed.So ahead and test the device for issues. Also, you can contact Yaes directly to get an answer. Yasue makes excellent equipment. If they indicate no ground is needed then that is the answerl If you still want a flat wide strap you can remove one of the rubber feet called bumpers put the strap in place and reattach the foot. 73 Jim
My electrical pole is 25ft away from my house, and about 50 ft from my office in a doublewide manufactured home. Can I run my ground, underground to the electrical pole and to the ground rod there? My antenna is 100ft to the other end of the house. So I have basically a big loop underground, with Coax and ground and radio. Big headache.
You can but I think that the NEC requires that all ground conductors lead to the common ground connector near the entrance panel. That assumes one panel and on building. 73, Jim
When I first read this I thought it was an April Fools Joke. You are saying you can have too much ground - a new thought for many. Should your antenna still be grounded or is that a mistake also?
My understanding of DC grounding and RF grounding are very different. With all due respect I disagree. Not all cases DC and RF ground can be used on the same system. An RF ground system must always be of low impedance where as DC grounding may not always be low impedance. US electrical code rules and regulations do not take into consideration the working of an RF grounding it is geared more toward DC grounding. Also ferrite beads and chokes etc only hide the effects of stray RF they don't solve the problem. Proper RF grounding can remove stray RF from the shack.
I think electricity follows the path of least resistance. You should have only one ground at your service. You want your ground to be only average. If this is the case lightning has probably many many houses to pick. If you have an awesome ground guess which house the lightning goes to. Just my unprofessional opinion. Jeff ke4fwe
I strongly disagree with the premise that you do not ground your radio per the manufacture's instructions (and good RF practice). The house ground is not, and never will be, a good RF ground; furthermore, it is totally inadequate to deal with static related events. It is just WAY too long and WAY too small. If the issue is ground loops, then the idea is to establish a really good RF grounding system, ground your radios and lightning arrestors and so on to this system, then lose the ground to the house (use a "ground-buster" adapter). I will take a good, heavy ground to a good grounding system over a 100 foot long piece of 14 AWG wire to the house ground any day. If we think about the entire grounding system for a house and the operations of RF ... what a great antenna system with a single point to ground.
Okay. Keep in mind the requirements of the electrical codes and the danger of not following the requirements. Also, that there is no such thing as an RF ground. It does not exist in a ham radio station. RF will not flow to the ground. AC will and having more than one path could kill someone. 73, Jim W6LG
Jim, technically it is not prohibited by the NEC in 250.54 concerning Auxilary Electrodes, but it should be as it can cause all sorts of problems with differences in potential (see Mike Holt in ruclips.net/video/WlnFNTay-9Q/видео.html). I realize you're getting more at RF grounds, but the simple way to fix the situation is to install a bonding jumper (that heavy 6AWG wire) from all of your antennas, amp, radio, etc. to the grounding electrode system of your home's electrical service so that they are all at the same potential. I would argue that your antennas are not grounded and bonded unless the coax is bonded to your home's grounding electrode system. You can simply use a intersystem bonding termination to make this connection (where all your home's cable, telephone, satellite etc. wires should be bonded) or if you MUST use your own ground rod make sure it is about 6' away from your home's electrical grounding electrode (rod, pipe or plate) and most importantly BOND the two together so all is at the same potential! Simply saying its a violation of the NEC to have two grounding systems in not necessarily true and just creates confusion for hams of what to do. Despite what people think, doing this will not create all sorts of EMI, etc. on their system and is much safer. So much dangerous misinformation out there.
Thanks Peter. You and Mike are, without question, correct and a good resource for all of us that try to do the right thing. As a former Building Inspector, the NEC was a tough read. The UPC is even worse. A mistake in plumbing might not be fatal pr just an annoyance. A mistake made in wiring a house could be fatal. Thanks again for your great help. Mike videos are very helpful. Mike on the phone was amazing. He expressed his appreciation for ham radio. 73, Jim
Jim, technically it is not prohibited by the NEC in 250.54 concerning Auxilary Electrodes, but it should be as it can cause all sorts of problems with differences in potential (see Mike Holt in ruclips.net/video/WlnFNTay-9Q/видео.html). I realize you're getting more at RF grounds, but the simple way to fix the situation is to install a bonding jumper (that heavy 6AWG wire) from all of your antennas, amp, radio, etc. to the grounding electrode system of your home's electrical service so that they are all at the same potential. I would argue that your antennas are not grounded and bonded unless the coax is bonded to your home's grounding electrode system. You can simply use a intersystem bonding termination to make this connection (where all your home's cable, telephone, satellite etc. wires should be bonded) or if you MUST use your own ground rod make sure it is about 6' away from your home's electrical grounding electrode (rod, pipe or plate) and most importantly BOND the two together so all is at the same potential! Simply saying its a violation of the NEC to have two grounding systems in not necessarily true and just creates confusion for hams of what to do. Despite what people think, doing this will not create all sorts of EMI, etc. on their system and is much safer. So much dangerous misinformation out there.
Hi Peter, Mike Holt was incredibly generous with his time and information. He said nice things about ham radio operators. Peter, I used to be a Building Inspector. I need to finish the videos on grounding and bonding. For 38 years I operated on second floor (res above gar) without any kind of RF Ground. Many RF Engineers laugh at the concept of an RF Ground. I tend to agree. I did the extensive grounding in the new radio room because I had the flat copper strap and because I wanted to make some tests. I would appreciate more help from you regarding the NEC. One of the toughest areas to inspect is the rough electrical. Peter, of topic, but get this: We moved into this new house that was built in about 1993 and probably has the 1990 NEC for plan check and inspection. I found that an outlet in the living room APPEARED to be dead. I chased that issue off and on for two weeks. There's a video from an expert who suggests that a lamp be used to test an outlet to see if it is dead. HOW STUPID IS THAT!!! My living room outlet had an open neutral. The black was HOT. The gound was grounded. There was 121 volts in the electrical box. A lamp would not light but someone could be elecricuted. Behind a couch was an outlet that I had not seen. It contained probably 16 wires as it was part J box. What complicated the issue was a red wire as a switch leg to another outlet that was switched. Okay, there's a new probably with that box and all of the wires. I accidentally shorted the black to ground. Crap! Sparks flew and a breaker tripped. But a black wire that is connected to 4 others is still hot. It appears to be connected to yet another breaker. I am going to every outlet and every switch to fix the wiring. I am finding loose grounds, missing grounds, wires around the screws in the wrong direction and 20 amp breakers on #14 romex. Back to the grounding, bonding, I disagree on the #6. That is okay for electricity and matches the NEC for many situations. However, #6 is not an effective RF grounding conductor. It is way too small with not nearly enough surface area. From one box to another I recommend a flat wide bonding strap. Something like Plumber's Tape will work good. Thanks for your help Peter. The NEC is confusing and the installation of electrical circuits is very complicated even in a simple single family res. 73, Jim
@@ham-radio Thanks again. Yes I agree about the copper strap, that is a good idea to increase the surface area. Your experience is unfortunately all too common in residential! I've seen many situations like that which are dangerous (and also radiate quite a bit of EMI/RFI). Loose neutrals, missing grounds are bad news. Especially older homes with largely 2 wire receptacles as was common before grounding was thought to be safe. Send me a message anytime about the NEC, its complicated but fun to learn. Mike Holt is a great resource, but also tends to expect your knowledge of electrical theory. Hope to hear you on the air sometime! 73, Peter N0STP
If the transceiver is connected to grounding rod that is different than the one close to the mains panel, I think electric code is not violated as long as the two different grounding rods are bonded with 6 gauge or larger. The additional grounding rod near the transceiver is likely encouraged for lightening safety by providing a larger capacity path to "earth", instead of the 12 or 14 gauge path provided at the wall plug.
You would be correct! This does not constitute as a grounding loop! It would be if not connected to the mains AC Safety Ground for the structure or house...
As usual Jim, your videos have been the most helpful out there. Hope your eventual move goes well.
Thank you, Jim.
Your video just confirmed what I have been learning over many years.
I have watched many of Mike Holt's videos. His videos on grounding and bonding are superb.
N0QFT, Ph.D, ATH
So much for everything I 'thought' I knew about grounding! Thanks Jim, when you explain it, it just makes sense.
Jim, thanks for this and I'm really looking forward to the next part(s) in the series. I'm particularly interested in the use of ferrite beads (and a good source would be appreciated) and in the similarities and differences between voltage/current baluns and ununs. I've been reading a lot about these transformers and there seems to be quite a lot of different thoughts on them. So, I'm looking at both the theory of operation and practical construction of these useful devices. Thanks!
Very timely discussion as I am considering relocating my radio room from an outside building to a spare room in the house.
When I set up the existing room, I did everything I read to be “the way” to do it:
1. I installed a copper bus bar on the wall behind my equipment.
2. I grounded ALL equipment to that bus bar.
3. I had a licensed electrician run a separate 30-amp circuit from the service box SOLELY to power the radio equipment.
4. A Polyphaser PLDO-120US20A surge protector is grounded to the bus bar; plugs into the above circuit outlet and all equipment is plugged into that device.
4. I sunk three 8-foot earthing rods around my tower which is located a yard or so distant from my radio room.
5. The three earthing rods are bonded to the tower legs AND to the utility earthing rod.
6. A wide copper strap connects the radio room bus bar to coax entrance panel then to the earthing rods.
7. All antenna cables pass thru Alpha Delta COAX surge protectors.
Now... If I vacate that room and set up a new radio room in my house, are you saying that I don’t need to duplicate all that rigamarole and just go with simply plugging my equipment directly into house outlets... bonding all equipment with a bus bar and connecting that bus bar to the utility ground? Sure would make things easier.
Thank you! This is exactly what I thought but you hear so many “expert” opinions. I value your opinion and appreciate your channel so much! God bless you and 73
You are so welcome! I am working on a new one because of an AC hum that my K3 had one day after I moved it. 73, Jim
I just watched your CQ video from 2016 and I read in the comments of your health challenges. I basically just came to your channel just to see if you're still posting and was relieved to see that you are.
one of the best ways to learn about station grounding is to buy the book "Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur" By H. Ward Silver. You can get it from the ARRL or at Amazon as a Kindle book or paperback. I have it on my Kindle and read it on my phone. It is very good for clearing up many misunderstandings. I have over 30 years experience setting up SSB and other electronics on boats and I learned a lot from this book. K6DCH
Jim, the timing for your series about Grounding, Bonding, Earthing, Shielding, and Protecting comes at a propitious time for me. I am presently reading Ward Silver's book on the subject. I am hoping maybe you could illustrate your points with video examples or photos of how you have your shack set up and an accompanying explanation of why it is the way it is in relation to the subject at hand.In the meantime, I hope you are doing well. I do enjoy your channel.
Again, really nice information Jim. 73!
Jim, Thank you for your wisdom on this issue and many others. I enjoy your videos. I am a new ham. I live on the east coast - in a high lightning area so Grounding, Bonding, RF and Lightning Protection are of great interest/concern to me.
I have a 2nd floor shack in the making that is located diagonally opposite from the electrical panel (>140' either direction on the perimeter from directly beneath the shack to the electrical panel.) I have an "Ufer" ground system. So I spoke with the Electrician that wired my home about the NEC and local codes. He said I should put in a local ground rod(s) near the shack and "bond" them to the "Ufer" ground by way of a cold water pipe. All the cold water pipes and natural gas pipes are bonded to the "Ufer" ground system by NEC rules. That keeps the additional ground rod(s) at the same potential as the electrical panel. This approach appears to be consistent with Chapter 6 "Good Practices Guidelines" in "Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur" by H. Ward Silver, N0AX, ARRL 2017 and consistent with my reading about Bonding in R56.
So, those diagrams in the equipment manuals are missing a note that the grounding rod must be either the electrical panel ground or "bonded" to that ground system. I think?
The cold water pipes would eliminate more expensive copper wire investment. I happen to have an armload of tinned copper braid that would fill the bill, as my shack is very close to the bathroom sink. All I need are some proper sized ring connectors. I`ll be taking this under consideration. Thanks for the input.
I am fortune to have a nearby outdoor water spigot with the copper supply tubing buried 18 inches deep as my bonding connection. That way I am not inviting RF or lightning into my house - with any luck. Having suffered two previous lightning strikes at this location, I am trying to be a bit cautious in my approach.
The ARRL grounding book also suggests to avoid having solder used in your ground. If you tie your shack ground to the bathroom sink copper pipe, make sure the pipe does not have elbows soldered together. (If lightning does strike and it melts the solder in your pipes, then you might have water leakage.)
Very good point. Thank you.
Hi Jim,
Thanks for your videos. I'm sure everyone can tell, you put a lot of thought into them.
I've run into a head scratcher. I have a mobile home where I've just set up my station.
I was going to ground my equipment to the electric panel ground. I discovered that the panel
ground goes to the metal framework under the floor, not an earthing rod. I further found a loose, (not connected) ground wire partially buried that runs to the electric meter in my yard. I rang it out with a meter. I think the disconnection may have been done while fixing some grounding issues I had 5-6 years ago that the electric co. repaired. I believe the home is grounded, (earthed) thru the tie down stakes that bolt to the framework. I did an outlet check that shows I'm correctly wired.
I'm using an Icom 5100A as a base powered thru a 13.8v pow. supply and a Diamond dual band vertical ant. on a 25' fiberglass push up mast, located some 20' from station room.
What do you think is best way to ground, also antenna lightning protection recommendation.
I haven't transmitted yet. Just trying to do best setup prior.
Thank you, Lee W6LTV
Well, that's not good. You can transmit without a ground. I did for decades on Wolf Mountain. Make absolutely certain that the wiring in the house IS CORRECTLY GROUNDED! That AC ground must be connected per NEC or your local code which is likely the same as NEC. Tie all of that together and grounded to whatever they used (likley a ground rod). I would not depended on the supports for grounding. And at this point you have no way to determine if in fact the house wiring is grounded. Your local utility may be willing to come out and help at no charge. It is a safety issue. By coincidence, I hope to install my grounding at the new QTH today or tomorrow. Two #8 for the AC ground conductor back to the Ufer ground rod along with a 2 inch wide copper strip. That strip will run from the desk to the common ground point as a continuous run of about 30 feet across the garage ceiling.
Back to your situation, check to see if you have aluminum wiring for convenience outlets. That was common in some modulars.
Good luck on the project. 73, Jim W6LG
This is something I’ve wondered about, so I appreciate your coverage. I want a safe and effective setup. It is too bad there is so much conflicting information about grounding. It would be interesting to see empirical tests of different scenarios.
Jim, technically it is not prohibited by the NEC in 250.54 concerning Auxilary Electrodes, but it should be as it can cause all sorts of problems with differences in potential (see Mike Holt in ruclips.net/video/WlnFNTay-9Q/видео.html). I realize you're getting more at RF grounds, but the simple way to fix the situation is to install a bonding jumper (that heavy 6AWG wire) from all of your antennas, amp, radio, etc. to the grounding electrode system of your home's electrical service so that they are all at the same potential. I would argue that your antennas are not grounded and bonded unless the coax is bonded to your home's grounding electrode system. You can simply use a intersystem bonding termination to make this connection (where all your home's cable, telephone, satellite etc. wires should be bonded) or if you MUST use your own ground rod make sure it is about 6' away from your home's electrical grounding electrode (rod, pipe or plate) and most importantly BOND the two together so all is at the same potential! Simply saying its a violation of the NEC to have two grounding systems in not necessarily true and just creates confusion for hams of what to do. Despite what people think, doing this will not create all sorts of EMI, etc. on their system and is much safer. So much dangerous misinformation out there.
Jim, I appreciate your attempt to clear up these misconceptions. I hate to rehash or throw in specific situational questions but I have been unable to clear up my grounding questions.
I am in the process of installing two base antennas at my house. My house electrical system ground consists of a ground rod (On opposite side of the house from the antennas) which is bonded via a 4 or 6 gauge wire to a cold water pipe in my crawl space. All water piping is copper including the run to the meter at the street. This is how the house was built and not a later retrofit.
My plan currently is to add a 8 foot ground rod on the antenna side of my house, this ground rod will be the closest point where both antennas masts can ground to a common point. I will attach: the ground from a 4010 EFHW antenna ground connection and its 10' mast, the ground from a gable mounted dual band antenna mast and the grounds from lighting arresters from each of two coax cables, all to this new ground rod. To meet NEC. requirements for a common ground I will then bond the new ground rod to a 3/4" cold water pipe exiting the building about 5 feet away with a 6 gauge copper ground wire. I believe that in fact I will have created what the NEC. refers to as an "intersystem ground" I am assuming this would meet the requirements of the NEC. to bond separate tower and mast grounds to the building grounding system. I've come up with this plan after trying to interpret the NEC. article 810: 20-21, article 250, and after reading a publication called "Reeve - Antenna System Bonding And Grounding Requirements in the USA." From what electrical training I've had I reason that bonding the two grounds together eliminates differences in potential to ground and both the antennas and the electrical system in the house will have the same potential to ground which would not be the case if they were separate and not bonded. I am not planning to add a ground at the radio cases ground studs as I believe the ground from the coax shield should be sufficient. My power supply is grounded through the house electrical system via a ground on the 3 prong plug. If I do find a need to ground the radios at the ground screws for some type of RF interference I would probably only run a ground wire from the radio to the case of the power supply which as I said is grounded through the power cord. Running a wire from the second story of my house to the crawl space or to the back of the house is not practical.
I respect your knowledge and experience in this matter and would like your input. Thanks
I understand the concern about differences in potential among various earth grounds located at the service entrance, the radio room, etc. Local code here requires neutral and safety ground to be bonded at the service entrance, but NOT at any subpanels, and subpanels must have their own earth ground rods. My concern about grounding a ham station only via the building's safety ground wiring is what I perceive to be a fire hazard, should the station receive a significant lightning strike through the antenna system. I can't see the 12- or 14-gauge Romex ground conductor serving to safely conduct the energy of a strike to an earth ground located some distance away at the service entrance. I'm especially uneasy at the thought of that strike energy traversing a 14-gauge conductor buried in walls and spliced with wire nuts.
No sub panel should have it's own ground rod! That is called a grounding loop!!! The sub panel is grounded at the main panel or house/structure.
Jim, I respectfully disagree with your "one ground" rule. Have you read the new ARRL Grounding and Bonding book? It references NEC, Motorola's R65 and military standards. As you know a number 12 wire running back to the breaker box is good for AC safety but can be a poor RF ground due to its length. A separate earth ground very close to the equipment makes a better RF ground and is a ground for surge arrestors and rotator cables. Also metal towers require their own ground system. What makes it work functionally and legally is to bond all earth ground rods together with a heavy conductor, #6 AWG minimum and at least 6 feet apart. The book also talks about UPPER FLOOR STATIONS, ferrite, welded ground rod connections and RF ground planes (something DX Engineering picked up on recently). I believe this book should be required reading for any Ham that goes beyond a hand held HT.
73 K9AEE
I agree there's a lot of good info in that book, And I also have to disagree with using the power safety ground for the station ground. Although according to the NEC (NFPA70) All grounds are supposed to be bonded together. And I have heard good arguments against that also.
Anyway, good video and discussion. Grounding in the real world is more kin to black magic...
@@clems6989 :: so why can't all roads lead back to home? If you're going to trench around your entire home inlay double Ott and bond it to 8ft grounding rods at regular intervals why can't you attach 6 AWG to the grounding post used by the electrical system? At least then everything is connected at the same ground potential.
I always ground my Towers separately. When I dig the hole I get down all the way to the bottom and I pound an 8-foot ground rod in at the center and then I run a piece of double lot UPS through the center of the cement before it's poured and attach it to a leg of the Tower. The better way to do it is to run a piece of ABS down so that if the tower takes is strike and it is routed to the ground it doesn't blow the hell out of these cement and shatter it in the process.
I've been doing this for about 40 years and there's no perfect solution. But I am looking for as close to perfect as I can find and it seems that amongst all the experts each has a different opinion of how it should be done. I have the R_65 guide by Motorola and if I go by that why would I want to go and buy the ARRL book? Just a question. Basically, what's in it for me?
JustAnotherGuy Hello, I am trying to learn about grounding and have been getting a lot of opinions on this as well. I get that the electric ground is probably not adequate during a lightning strike as the long wire to the electrical box ground rod may have too much inductance for the lightning to flow that way. My approach is to bond the rods together to pass NEC, but how do I keep lightning ought of the shack or the building I am trying to protect with these various ground rods? NOTE: I am no expert in this so please be kind. -)
I have a grounding question for new "Shack" I'm putting together.
I have an older house in a really rural area. outside of town, built in 52 I think. It still has Fuse box with the round twist fuses.
It passed home inspection and when I plug in my Fluke outlet checker all the outlets pass correct wiring test.
My main question is on adding my tower to the grounding system. I plan on adding a box on the tower that has a copper plate with PolyPhaser Lightning arrestors with #4 ground cable running to multiple 8' Ground rods. However, I can not find any other ground rods for the existing grounding to tie into... I always hear, just adding your own ""Secondary" ground rod is a violation of the NEC or whatever... I have looked all the way around the house at the Power pole where the meter is and out by the well pump. I have found zero rods. I want to add 3-6 8' Rods around my tower, but what do I need to tie them into to join the rest of the grounding system.
Great video and thanks for your time.
-Scott, 73s!!!
I've noticed when the term "ground" used, it can mean one of several different situations. There's the equipment grounding conductor (EGC) the Mike Holt really emphasizes in his NEC code classes. There's the earth ground rod (or equivalent). There's RF ground to keep RF away from people. There's lighting protection grounds. They all share common terms and components but perform different functions.
After reading some of the comments, I think everyone is making this subject harder than it needs to be. “One Ground to rule them all” is my motto. What follows is my perspective on this issue and carries no guaranty or warranty as to accuracy or completeness. I provide it for simple discussion on the subject matter.
Local Code is the law. If no local code use National Electrical Code (NEC).
Boding: an electrical connection to keep all points at the same potential.
For bonding to work, it has to be…
• Low-Z and “short” at the frequencies of interest
• Heavy enough to carry the expected current
• Sturdy enough to survive the environment
AC Ground
• It is that third (round) prong on the AC plug. Grounding is for safety. Use it.
• Bond all ground rods together using minimum #6 AWG copper. If you have one at the antenna, or where the cable comes into the house, etc., they all must be bonded to the house electrical panel ground rod. You can have as many as you want, as long as they are all bonded together with minimum #6 AWG copper. See NEC 250.
• Intersystem Bonding: NEC 250.94. The bonding bar shall be connected to the grounding electrode conductor with a minimum 6 AWG copper conductor.
RF Management: Everything in the station is an antenna.
• Forget about an “RF ground”
• Concentrate instead on bonding
• Equalize voltage to minimize current
Bonding Radio Equipment: My transceiver only has DC going to it. There is no grounded AC plug. So I bond the transceiver to the ground bar along the back of my desk using the manufacturer’s supplied ground post on the back of the case, per manufacturer's instructions. This ground bar along the back of my desk is connected to the intersystem bonding bar. One ground system. While this DC may not be much, if anything goes wrong, I want the voltage to go to ground and blow the fuse on my DC distribution system and not go through me.
Thank you. Keep in mind that there is bonding, grounding and earthing. The bonding wires are better for conducting RF if they are straps. Think of the strap being "flat and wide." Run a flat wide strap from the equipment to aq common buss bar. Then from that buss bar to a common earthed rod with all other "grounds". That wire from the buss bar to the common point ground (earth) should also be flat and wide. All ground wires, earth wires connect at the same point to that common ground. That is my read of the NEC with help from phone calls to several experts like Mike Holt. 73, Jim
@@ham-radio I agree regarding wide strips of metal. I use the method outlined in Chapter 24 of the ARRL’s Handbook. Chapter 24 also has pictures and illustrations regarding Single Point Ground Systems. I believe a lot of the confusion comes from the various electrical terms. Chapter 28 of the handbook does a great job of defining those terms. Properly defining the terminology goes a long way towards understanding the concepts. The three goals of AC Safety Grounding, Lightning Protection, and RF Management can be accomplished with one comprehensive system. Thanks.
Hi Jim,
Great video and it makes a lot of sense.
I believe all this grounding came form back in the day before electrical regulations got stricter and everyone used Valve or Tube rigs as you might call them.
Here in Ireland most homes in the last 30-40 years have a earth system via the 3 pin plug which goes back to the fuse panel and is then connected to a ground rod and protected further via RCD protection which kills power if current exceeds 30 ma. I'm not sure when RCD protection became standard.
So my question has always been why earth the ham equipment if it's connected to the house system earth ?
in my opinion if the shack grounder is a lower resistance there could be a danger where current endlessly flows to the separate ground system with no chance for cutting the power because it never reaches the RCD back in the fuse panel.
I believe that RCD sockets should be fitted to the ham shack socket outlets as it "helps" protect against electrical faults.
As you rightly pointed out , RF issues should be eliminated before they reach the shack.
I say if someone wants to earth the antenna against lightning and static then this should be done outside the shack using the Coax shield.
Even if you bring all your equipment grounds back to the panel there's no reason to use greater than #6 wire. Why? Because your panel is connected to the ground rod by #6 or #8 copper wire. It's like using 2 inch water pipes inside your home when your water supply is 1 1/2 inch. Using lower impedance items like strapping in the shack won't give you lower impedance if it still goes through your standard house ground.
@@ham-radio Hi Jim, I amended my earlier comment about the #4 wire, it was in error. I amended it to include the items about everything going into that #6 wire house ground. My point was to temper the urge to spend big money on ultra conductive copper equipment in the station, just to send into a single #6 wire connected to a ground rod. Sort of anticlimactic. Totally agree with everything about using the existing house ground, I even commented earlier about my agreeing on the necessity of the third prong in a plug. Anyways, 73 Jim, be well!
Interesting videos. Thanks for doing them. Do you have a video where, lets say, you have a radio, power supply, computer, and an outside antenna....where do you use the chokes, ferrite beads...etc? Or should I just buy the Palomar Engineers kit? de KQ1K
So I just pounded in a separate ground rod. It's about 12 feet from the house ground. Can I tie those two rods together?
Thanks Jim. It looks like the way of doing it the way I have heard from engineers. I suppose the common wisdom surrounding grounding ham gear seems to be in question. I look forward to further instruction from you and others. The comment section is fascinating. too. KC3BXZ Joe P.S.--- I seem to have heard that bolts of lightning can strike the ground around earthing rods, causing current to travel back to the whole shebang.
Since you mentioned the ferrite cores, could you perhaps go into a bit more detail in one of your future videos about the ferrite core specifics?
I did my university studies in electrical engineering, but later on went into signal processing, so I might be a bit out of touch, but back when we did AC circuit analysis at the uni, we always expected to have information about the inductivities we're using.
My experience when researching the ferrite cores commonly sold to hams for EMI suppression purposes, was that they sometimes have physical dimensions specified, but only extremely rarely provide any usable information about the ferrite material itself, making it very difficult to estimate performance of the ferrite before purchasing it.
So is there a better way of figuring out what the core do, other then getting them and hoping for the best?
What about bonding the separate ground to electrical ground? Thank you for another thought provoking video. -73- W1KPS
Actually it’s required to bond all ground rods together around your home.
Before ufer grounds were used, it was common practice to use two ore more grounding rods for dry ground. All of these ground rods are required to be bonded at a central location.
From what I understand with the ARRL handbook, all grounds need to be bonded together. One of my AC to DC power bricks is not grounded on the DC side and needs to be grounded separately.
Steam Utah mine is just sooo far away from where my radio ground is and I have a sprinkler system that would make it a nightmare to do. I also can’t go direct making it that much more difficult. Think I’m going to put a second ground rod in away from the house to hopefully pull lightning away.
Now I am really confused. Like you, I live in the mountains near Big Bear Lake California and an altitude of 6700 ft. During our monsoon season between July and September we have terrible thunderstorms.
I have read instructions where you should take double Ott and surround your entire house with it buried at least 6 inchs underground. At connection points you should use double Ott and there is a chemical reaction fusing compound that welds the two together. I didn't go quite that far as a whole house but close.
Also, when it came to my galvanized steel tower we dug the hole 6 feet deep ( we doubled the manufacturer's recommendations on everything because of being in a moderate wind area and it was a freestanding tower ) and at the bottom of the pit drove an 8-foot copper-clad ground rod down as deep as we could and still be able to attach an acorn clamp to attach double Ott. We brought the double Ott up through the cement and attached it with a brass tooth clamp to a tower leg. The expectation was now the tower was well grounded. It later dawned on me that we should have run the double Ott up through a piece of ABS because if the tower took a strike it could potentially crumble the cement. I have even read that you should ground your tower with a triangle of grounding rods! Or the entire house!
www.hunker.com/12482068/how-to-ground-my-house
None the less, I believed we had a very good ground. The way I tested it was with a 100 watt light bulb where I connected one side of an AC outlet to the bulb and the other side to the ground that we had brought into the shack. The bulb fully illuminated indicating we had an excellent ground.
Now you've thrown a monkey wrench into my corn flakes! Are you really telling me that the only ground I need is a third prong attached at a standard electrical outlet? In the shack I use numerous Belkin power strips that are rated at 30 amps and not cheap plastic ones either. They are three wire and have an MOV in line to protect against spikes. I to use RFI snap on chokes.
So what you're saying is that I don't need to run double Ott all the way around my shack until it meets again and then running into the house?
lighting is attacked by static leaders or where static is dissipating in the atmosphere from you tower, antenna, coax, and any other metal structures on your property. An improper ground allows Statc Leaders to be produced. I have been studying Lighting and Tessla's theory and others ideas for ears now.
@@DirtNerds :: I sincerely don't mean to be rude but your typographical errors and out of context statements are of no help. I like those of us that have had our ham licenses for 40 years know how a Tesla coil works. That has nothing to do with how you ground your station. With all due respect.
@@justanotherguy3850 what i posted has nothing to do with a Tesla coil(Tesla did far more). I deleted the comment so you will be happy! Boils down to Grounding is everything in a good station.
@@DirtNerds :: I really don't want to be rude. You didn't need to delete your post but you made direct reference to Tesla and how you were studying his experiments and made a correlation to how lightning affects us. Many of us built Jacob's Ladder early in the 1970s. It's my opinion for whatever it's worth it if you're a ham you need to remember first and foremost to be of help and not try to show how much more you know than the average ham. Your reply that I'm now replying to is condescending. You need to learn to play nice.
I have been an extra class for more than 40 years. I simply asked a question about better grounding since I'm planning on moving to Alabama where the frequency of thunderstorms is much greater than it is in California. Just because I asked a question does not imply that I'm an idiot and condescending remarks are not helpful. You're probably thinking, what's condescending remark? Telling me that you deleted a post so now I should be happy. It's best you not reply.
@@justanotherguy3850 Tesla did many experiments in regards to lighting, I have been researching as well for several years, I live right next to 144KV electrical lines and have been asked many times if i have a lot of electrical noise or have issues with lighting. just was offer what has worked well for me the past 30+ yrs. Sorry sometime I don't convey my thoughts very clear.
Since we are to have 1 ground for the home, how about towers? I help teach a Technician class and the safety portion says that a tower should have a ground rod for each leg of the tower, and then a heavy conductor connected between tower and these ground rods. What about those rods (I do realize they are for lightning protection)
I believe that training also says to bond all the rods together with as short as cable as necessary.
My ufer ground emerges from under the house and manifests in about 6" of exposed 6ga bare copper wire just below the meter. I can bond my station ground to at that point. I don't find anything in the NEC that says to bonding wire has to be buried, only that if it is exposed it must be secured to whatever surface and protected from damage.
I have a question. I intend to run an 891 in the house with a tuner and regulated power supply. Grounding the power supply should protect all three things? My other question is when you do field day in a park and power off battery you still need a proper ground don’t you. How do you properly ground everything in the field.
Hams need this information. Thanks
You bet. Confusing and often misunderstood. Thanks, Jim
I live in a very old house with 2 prong outlets through out the house. Whatever 3 prong grounded extension cords or outlet strips have to be run into a two prong adapter to be used. That being said I have run all of my equipment to an outside ground and use ferrite beads on everything in the shack. Can't afford to have the house rewired so not sure else what I can do.
Much of the 2 prong outlets I have seen were in metal boxes that may have been grounded with a third wire heading back to the panel. (The center screw of the outlet cover "could" be that ground.) If this is the case for you, I would suggest you bond your grounds together with 6awg wire if possible. (The 6awg would go from rod to rod, or also from your station rod directly to the panel.)
Jim, I find this information confusing to say the least. Since the AC plug is already going to the panel ground (through the third prong), is there any need to even use the grounding post on the back of my transceiver? If so, should it be a heavy gauge wire? What do you recommend?
Good Question...And the answer is ????????????
I guess I'm not understanding. By your comments only the house ground should be used but all the books I've read show running ground from the back of radios and equipment to ground rods tied to the house ground. Whats correct?.
ive always wondered why there was a ground nut on the back of radios??? I thought it was grounded when I plugged it into the wall with a three prong grounded electrical plug??? or in the case of 12 volt the black wire going to the negative of the battery which should have a ground to the chassis of the body of the vehicle???
I have two power supplies. One has the black wire tying to the house ground and the other one does not. Hopefully, your power supply has the black wire tying to the grounding pin.
I disagree. You seem to think these ground points are for reducing RF interference. E0A01 Lighting Protection is the primary function of an external earth connection or ground rod. E9D12 An electrically short connection to 3 or 4 interconnected ground rods driven into the Earth is the best RF ground for your station.
I agree, my ground rods are mainly for RF and lightning protection. Going back to the box like Jim is suggesting is stupid. You'll be exposing your house to taking in lightning if you get a strike. All you need to do is bond your ground rods to the house ground. In my house it's the incoming water line. That will satisfy NEC. Running your ground to the panel is a big mistake. Don't do it.
I think the bigger mistake is most newer houses us 14 awg wire from the outlet to the panel where if you tie your thick braid to is a higher resistance. If you have multiple ground rods and bond them all together, doesn't it mean they are all a "single" ground point? (The ARRL handbook and the NEC suggest to use 6awg when bonding grounds.)
@@gn02020202 No, because you don't ground all of your equipment to every grounding rod. You spread it out. My career is telecommunications so I provide a backbone for cellular services. At these towers, I've noticed every leg of the tower has its own ground. And it is always 10 awg, solid, unshielded copper wire. And the same with every terminal at that site. If you want to test any ground for lightning protection this is what I know for fact. The Bell Corp. or AT&T standards are this. Take one lead of your OHM meter and stick it in the ground. Take the other lead and place it on your grounding point. If you read 600 ohms of resistance, you're protected.
@@mattk.5258 Using your water line as a grounding source is a bad idea. Most water lines are only conductive for a few inches outside the house. Then they tie into a plastic line.
Look I know Jims point is T0B11
, Local electrical codes establishes grounding requirements for an amateur radio tower or antenna. But I have to go by experience and what I've seen deployed by organizations bigger , and more established than the ARRL.
Thanks for the video. I have been getting conflicting advice from internet experts and Elmers locally on this subject. I agree with you on the NEC as I have read it (skimmed it). What concerns me is lightning protection. I don’t want to bring RF into the shack but I certainly don’t want to have lightning in their either. I realize I may loose the forward facing (equipment closes to the antenna feeds) for a lightning strike but I want to make the lightning not come into the shack or the house if I can help it. Thoughts? 73, from a #HamInTraining
One thing to think about is a disconnect or disconnects that are outside. You literally pull the plug on all cables. I have done that for years. We were hit twice at the electrical lines and damage was done to other things but not the ham equipment. Since I am building a new radio room in a new location, I will be discussing the grounding issues (which are confusing). 73, Jim
Jim W6LG thanks for the reply. I am planning on using a external panel from DX engineering where I will mount my arrestors and would be a good place to disconnect as you say. Of course you have to know ahead of time to disconnect. Thanks again, 73.
How do lightning arrestors change the grounding system? Does the ground rod that has the arrestors need to be tied to the electrical panel ground? Or does the coax shield connected to the transceiver which is then tied to the AC panel ground count as sufficient? Thanks.
Both ground rods need to be bonded together with a suggested 6 awg wire. If you can bond them both outside the house and inside the panel.
Most newer houses have 14 awg wire heading back to the panel from the outlet.
We live in a mobile home and they have 2 grounds, one to the electrical power meter and one to the steel frame. The panel is difficult to get a wire to, so if i was to drive a earthing rod in near the operating position the run a large conductor over to the main electrical ground rod. The rods would be about 15 - 20 feet apart. Would this cover what has been discussed. Thanks de N9TDE
It is my understanding and that of many others that way you are adding a ground rod is a violation of the NEC and could pose a hazard. All grounding conductors should be, must be bonded to the common ground. That is my understanding. You should check with local authorities. To that end, I did inspect the electrical connection to many mobile homes when I was a Deputy Building Inspector many years ago. You could do this. Add a copper pipe running horizontally below the desk. Run separate wide strap from the equipment as needed to the pipe. From the pipe run a flat wide conductor to the common ground near the panel 73, Jim
I just received a YAESU FP-1030A power supply. The "Grounding terminal" is a rinky-dink, TINY screw on the bottom of the case... no feasible way to attach a braided cable or strap. The rest of my powered equipment is singly grounded to the grounding bar in my shack and thence to a set of ground rods just outside. Here's my question... Without a decent factory supplied grounding point, what is my best course of action... ONE, no ground strap at all... or TWO, drill a hole in the case and bolt the ground strap to it?
Many thanks
It sounds like a ground or earthing strap is not needed.So ahead and test the device for issues. Also, you can contact Yaes directly to get an answer. Yasue makes excellent equipment. If they indicate no ground is needed then that is the answerl If you still want a flat wide strap you can remove one of the rubber feet called bumpers put the strap in place and reattach the foot. 73 Jim
My electrical pole is 25ft away from my house, and about 50 ft from my office in a doublewide manufactured home. Can I run my ground, underground to the electrical pole and to the ground rod there? My antenna is 100ft to the other end of the house. So I have basically a big loop underground, with Coax and ground and radio. Big headache.
You can but I think that the NEC requires that all ground conductors lead to the common ground connector near the entrance panel. That assumes one panel and on building. 73, Jim
Maybe they are not talking about adding a new ground rod just tie equipment to the one for main panel
When I first read this I thought it was an April Fools Joke. You are saying you can have too much ground - a new thought for many. Should your antenna still be grounded or is that a mistake also?
My understanding of DC grounding and RF grounding are very different. With all due respect I disagree. Not all cases DC and RF ground can be used on the same system. An RF ground system must always be of low impedance where as DC grounding may not always be low impedance. US electrical code rules and regulations do not take into consideration the working of an RF grounding it is geared more toward DC grounding. Also ferrite beads and chokes etc only hide the effects of stray RF they don't solve the problem. Proper RF grounding can remove stray RF from the shack.
I think electricity follows the path of least resistance. You should have only one ground at your service. You want your ground to be only average. If this is the case lightning has probably many many houses to pick. If you have an awesome ground guess which house the lightning goes to. Just my unprofessional opinion.
Jeff ke4fwe
Copper toxicity is a real problem
I strongly disagree with the premise that you do not ground your radio per the manufacture's instructions (and good RF practice). The house ground is not, and never will be, a good RF ground; furthermore, it is totally inadequate to deal with static related events. It is just WAY too long and WAY too small.
If the issue is ground loops, then the idea is to establish a really good RF grounding system, ground your radios and lightning arrestors and so on to this system, then lose the ground to the house (use a "ground-buster" adapter). I will take a good, heavy ground to a good grounding system over a 100 foot long piece of 14 AWG wire to the house ground any day.
If we think about the entire grounding system for a house and the operations of RF ... what a great antenna system with a single point to ground.
Okay. Keep in mind the requirements of the electrical codes and the danger of not following the requirements. Also, that there is no such thing as an RF ground. It does not exist in a ham radio station. RF will not flow to the ground. AC will and having more than one path could kill someone. 73, Jim W6LG
I ya Mamma Mia Chichiwawa
That's a spicy meatball! We will see if it matters at all. 73, Jim
Great vid as usual...hope all is well my friend...i just sent you private email...73's
KB8YBG JIM
Jim, technically it is not prohibited by the NEC in 250.54 concerning Auxilary Electrodes, but it should be as it can cause all sorts of problems with differences in potential (see Mike Holt in ruclips.net/video/WlnFNTay-9Q/видео.html). I realize you're getting more at RF grounds, but the simple way to fix the situation is to install a bonding jumper (that heavy 6AWG wire) from all of your antennas, amp, radio, etc. to the grounding electrode system of your home's electrical service so that they are all at the same potential. I would argue that your antennas are not grounded and bonded unless the coax is bonded to your home's grounding electrode system. You can simply use a intersystem bonding termination to make this connection (where all your home's cable, telephone, satellite etc. wires should be bonded) or if you MUST use your own ground rod make sure it is about 6' away from your home's electrical grounding electrode (rod, pipe or plate) and most importantly BOND the two together so all is at the same potential! Simply saying its a violation of the NEC to have two grounding systems in not necessarily true and just creates confusion for hams of what to do. Despite what people think, doing this will not create all sorts of EMI, etc. on their system and is much safer. So much dangerous misinformation out there.
Thanks Peter. You and Mike are, without question, correct and a good resource for all of us that try to do the right thing. As a former Building Inspector, the NEC was a tough read. The UPC is even worse. A mistake in plumbing might not be fatal pr just an annoyance. A mistake made in wiring a house could be fatal. Thanks again for your great help. Mike videos are very helpful. Mike on the phone was amazing. He expressed his appreciation for ham radio. 73, Jim
Jim, technically it is not prohibited by the NEC in 250.54 concerning Auxilary Electrodes, but it should be as it can cause all sorts of problems with differences in potential (see Mike Holt in ruclips.net/video/WlnFNTay-9Q/видео.html). I realize you're getting more at RF grounds, but the simple way to fix the situation is to install a bonding jumper (that heavy 6AWG wire) from all of your antennas, amp, radio, etc. to the grounding electrode system of your home's electrical service so that they are all at the same potential. I would argue that your antennas are not grounded and bonded unless the coax is bonded to your home's grounding electrode system. You can simply use a intersystem bonding termination to make this connection (where all your home's cable, telephone, satellite etc. wires should be bonded) or if you MUST use your own ground rod make sure it is about 6' away from your home's electrical grounding electrode (rod, pipe or plate) and most importantly BOND the two together so all is at the same potential! Simply saying its a violation of the NEC to have two grounding systems in not necessarily true and just creates confusion for hams of what to do. Despite what people think, doing this will not create all sorts of EMI, etc. on their system and is much safer. So much dangerous misinformation out there.
Hi Peter,
Mike Holt was incredibly generous with his time and information. He said nice things about ham radio operators. Peter, I used to be a Building Inspector. I need to finish the videos on grounding and bonding. For 38 years I operated on second floor (res above gar) without any kind of RF Ground. Many RF Engineers laugh at the concept of an RF Ground. I tend to agree. I did the extensive grounding in the new radio room because I had the flat copper strap and because I wanted to make some tests. I would appreciate more help from you regarding the NEC. One of the toughest areas to inspect is the rough electrical.
Peter, of topic, but get this:
We moved into this new house that was built in about 1993 and probably has the 1990 NEC for plan check and inspection. I found that an outlet in the living room APPEARED to be dead. I chased that issue off and on for two weeks. There's a video from an expert who suggests that a lamp be used to test an outlet to see if it is dead. HOW STUPID IS THAT!!! My living room outlet had an open neutral. The black was HOT. The gound was grounded. There was 121 volts in the electrical box. A lamp would not light but someone could be elecricuted. Behind a couch was an outlet that I had not seen. It contained probably 16 wires as it was part J box. What complicated the issue was a red wire as a switch leg to another outlet that was switched. Okay, there's a new probably with that box and all of the wires. I accidentally shorted the black to ground. Crap! Sparks flew and a breaker tripped. But a black wire that is connected to 4 others is still hot. It appears to be connected to yet another breaker. I am going to every outlet and every switch to fix the wiring. I am finding loose grounds, missing grounds, wires around the screws in the wrong direction and 20 amp breakers on #14 romex.
Back to the grounding, bonding, I disagree on the #6. That is okay for electricity and matches the NEC for many situations. However, #6 is not an effective RF grounding conductor. It is way too small with not nearly enough surface area. From one box to another I recommend a flat wide bonding strap. Something like Plumber's Tape will work good.
Thanks for your help Peter. The NEC is confusing and the installation of electrical circuits is very complicated even in a simple single family res. 73, Jim
@@ham-radio Thanks again. Yes I agree about the copper strap, that is a good idea to increase the surface area. Your experience is unfortunately all too common in residential! I've seen many situations like that which are dangerous (and also radiate quite a bit of EMI/RFI). Loose neutrals, missing grounds are bad news. Especially older homes with largely 2 wire receptacles as was common before grounding was thought to be safe. Send me a message anytime about the NEC, its complicated but fun to learn. Mike Holt is a great resource, but also tends to expect your knowledge of electrical theory. Hope to hear you on the air sometime! 73, Peter N0STP