Is This Heat Pump Better Than Your Gas Boiler?
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- Опубликовано: 17 авг 2022
- #arotherm #vaillant #heatpumps
Vaillant Arotherm Plus installation in a period property in South East London done under Heat Geek Assured Heat Pumps scheme.
For your air source heat pump installation quote contact me here:
www.urbanplumbers.co.uk/ 
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The problem with such high quality content is that now I refuse to have any work done unless I can hire you, Sir!
Thank you!
my thoughts exactly!!!
@@balexandre and mine!!!
Agree
I loooooove the work on all the copper.
And I wish I could find someone like you who delivers such a fine job.
Well presented video but...The most important thing to note about heat pumps is they are only as efficient as the insulation in the property. I have a 70s detached house with large windows (11), no wall insulation and a solid floor. To upgrade the insulation for a heat pump to be efficient would mean triple glazed windows, major structural work on the floor ( the whole ground floor dug up and replaced) and walls insulated reducing the room size. Also all radiators replaced and microbore piping. In at around 15-20k at a conservative estimate. I'm a pensioner on a fixed income, no way can I afford this unfortunately. I have a wood burner which heats keeps me very warm as well as well as being able to cook with if the power is off. Great idea for new builds but old houses-bottom line too expensive-cheers
Lol then it insulation very high only need hair dryer to heat it instead of this expensive crap
@@WayneJohnsonZastil if you are heating a closet then yes. Heating a house you will need more .. but you might not need more energy of a hair drier to run said home.
Some new heatpump coefficient of performance goes up to 9+ (granted its for air to air systems - to get 40C water in winter its quite bit less) meaning you will get 9kw of heating from 1 kw of electricity
@@WayneJohnsonZastil You sound a little biased mate. I've had one of these for about 15 months and our energy bills are way lower than when we had a gas boiler, I'm pleased to say. We don't have any gas in the house now as we also installed Solar & Batteries. It's a two bedroomed house of about 150 sq m and our energy bills for the last year have worked out at £100 A MONTH.
heat pumps are only fit for NEW BUILDS that meet the heat loss tests and get the required rating , in old cavity wall big window houses FORGET IT , YOU'LL SHIVER,, WHY DOES THE GOVT .ALLOW ALL THESE MISLEADING ADVERTS ..
@@scottcompany4040 What did you spend? Did you borrow the money to do the installations? if so what is the credit costing you? Where do you live in the UK? North Mid or South?
Its not as simple as buying a heat pump and solar is everybodys answer - the gas combi was a brilliant bit of kit that brought hot water and warmth to millions of low income people, and gas despite all the negative press isn't particularly dirty to burn.
I didn't indulge in the heat pump or new boiler panic mode and actually sat down and worked it out with a spreadsheet, and instead I invested that money and good lord has it been a better decision.
Just wait until the people with heat pumps start needing repairs done, and every single repair will push your break even point further and further into the future.
Very interesting, looking forward to the next video showing how it performed through the winter
it wont bc there wont be energy in Europe to run the pump to produce heat !
Excellent video. I would say looks like ‘ideal world’ install. I am up for doing this as part of final phase in a fairly long term progressive retrofit of my own house. My conclusions are that I am probably going to have to sacrifice a bit of my garage to fit in the cylinder storage. I am replacing a compact combination boiler and compared to that, a heat pump looks space hungry. I am thinking ability to adopt at scale in average uk home the size of a rabbit hutch may require some compromise on set up.
Think twice
Quality viewing mate.. thoroughly enjoyed your efforts ❤️
Thanks a ton!
edging closer to understanding whether we are suitable for the heat pump option..... your input is precious to me.
What a quality install. Great to watch.
Writing from Sweden 8ex-pat). We installed a CtC heat pump last year and haven't looked back. Houses are usually well insulated here but our house is quite old and there is a bit of a draught. Nevertheless the heat pump or outside fan has a built-in sensor which "tells" it to work a bit harder in order to pull in the outside air and convert it to heat energy. We're probably going to install an indoor sensor at some point too, but so far it hasn't been necessary.
Yes if weather comp is set well yiu don’t need indoor sensors.
And the cost of installation and cost of electricity to run it?
Watch last 2 videos - you will find all that there
Excited to see the follow up video with the costs!
Get a handkerchief. It’ll bring tears to your eyes.
The costs are the elephant in the room
That has to be the neatest install and the sexiest plumbing job I've ever seen.
Great video, backed up with your calculatons. How you are proved correct after winter.
Nice to see a video that looks sensibly at Heat Pumps. I'm sick of seeing dinosaurs complaining about them and claiming they're no good. I worked with Heat pumps back in the 70's and they were crap but now companies like Vaillant are producing extremely efficient and reliable kit. I have exactly the same vaillant heat pump in my house and it's been excellent.
Thank you!
@Mishmash i dont think thats true.
how much did it cost for installation, and how old of a house?
@Mishmash You do realise most of the electricity to run these heat pumps is coming from gas right. For those that can afford them and have the space for all the tanks and the money to have it all installed they are great but most people do not.
@Mishmash Im all for green technologies, but only if they work. And theyre only truly green if the electricity they use, which is substantial, comes from renewable sources, which for the most part they currently dont. As of now most people in the UK simply cant afford to convert, assuming it is worthwhile. But as you've closed your ears to others' views, it seems we know your type.
This is great video and you have explained very clearly for even an interested person without any technical background to understand. Your work is of a very high standard and is a credit to you. I doubt however that most people having these systems installed will get anything like the integrity and standard of workmanship that you have shown. Even organisations like British Gas I think are incapable of producing anything like the standard you have shown in this video. The old 'oh that'll do'' mentality will persist and people will be paying top dollar for mediocrity and the tragedy is they won't know they're being sold short.
That’s why there is a Heat Geek Map and heat geek assured heat pumps installations - all to promote high standards of training and installations
20% price difference is too little to make the jump. adding solar would help, but crux is that gas prices are subsidised, while electricity is not even when most of electricity is coming from gas!
Excellent explanation of the heat pump installation..
Great video, very interesting, thanks for the detail explanation of what you were doing.
Love the video, but please factor the purchase cost in the calculation. I recently provided a quotation for a heat pump. The pay back was over 17 years before saving anything. Heat pumps are not a solution for all housing stock. Very nice to see a fellow engineer proud of his work. 👍👍 the introduction of power factor metering will also need to be taking into account in the near future. Converting everything to electric is not viable right now and in my opinion will cause a increase in pollution not a decrease. Hydrogen is a potential, but shelved technology in pursuit of profits will hold this country back.
PF should basically be at 1 for "heating" appliances?
@@drsquirrel00 you would like to think so. I can see something different coming soon. Appliance id over smart metering and charged by appliance type and time. Tech is there to do this now. Brace for a metered life. Everything will be controlled if you let it.
@@thetruthwillwinoneday I know they're working on ways to address device by their power draw signatures as its possible just not as accurate enough. Should soon start seeing smart meter displays saying X device using this much power, Y device this much etc.
Installing a heat pump is not "converting to electric". It's converting to 25% electric, 75% outdoor air. Even if the electric is all generated by gas, you burn less of it at the station to power the heat pump than you would have done in the boiler in your home, because it's only a fraction of the total energy source.
@@WillHirschUK in a perfect world, yes. But getting to the perfect insulated house is expensive. I regularly quoting for HP in older stock houses. Everything needs changing, way too expensive in one hit. I was called to one of these incredible machines last week, customer stating it never turns off. Not surprised with the installation. It was terrible, massive bills and the house was cold. Nothing i could do except quote to put things right. In this case going back to gas is the more viable option. I don’t just sell new tech for crazy money if it won’t work. I felt so sorry for this family and the weather is mild right now. Give it another month! So go back to a gas boiler or rip every room apart to insulate and install radiators 3 times the size. To make things worse they had no room stat on original system, installing one of those would have cut their bills, so, after a spend of £10,000 they are cold with a £600 a month electric bill. Progress. NOT
Your pipework is an absolute joy to see and good enough to leave open as it’s actually quite an artwork 👏🏼. I do realise lagging is needed, but …
@@neiljones9005 you’d hope so but it’s not my experience of work done
Excellent explanation. Thank you so much for posting this.
Great video. I had a survey done for my bungalow for a heat pump. It did not go great I only need 4kw of heat for my tiny place but they were looking to run the heat pump at 55C to get reasonable sized radiators!
Upgrade rads or add insulation. Running at 55 is too high
Great vid. We’re just going through the process of removing 2x37kW boilers for a 16kW viessmann 150 ASHP in North London this is very useful. Gonna be a fun project!
Good luck! Boilers are always 5 times oversized :)
Yeah, I went big on the solar to give ample electrical coverage. 3-phase, 11kW of panels and 3xTesla Powerwalls (40kWh storage 😎)
The very fact that the homeowner has gone to the extent of insulating and reducing heat losses in preparation for the HP sums it up for me - also for reusing the old boiler and tank - double win. This with the fact that the HP only needs to be 6kW again sums up the problem with the UK gas heating industry in the last few decades. There are a couple of channels that could do with learning a thing or two from you! Great, honest work as always!
Surely with all the insulation work, a gas boiler only needs to be 6kw? The requirement is independent of the heat source??
So really the issue is insulation etc...not the source of energy?
@@ChrisLee-yr7tz exactly that - how much energy input is needed into the building to keep the temperature steady. Problem seems to be that the plumbing/gas industry's drive to rip out heat/system boilers in favour of combis that need a high output for hot water means the boiler design is scaled as such when it comes to CH - insulation isn't glamorous to most compared to new shiny stuff hence why it's neglected!
Huge radiators are not ‘ lovely ‘ they are needed because the hot water circulating through them is 40-50C not 80C plus like gas boilers .
@@stoicsceptic8420 it's all about system design - any condensing gas boiler should not have a return flow above 55C if you care about efficiency in any case - likewise for HPs, bigger rads only to match the required flow temp for efficiency - 40-50C is on the high side...
Great content, well explained and videoed. Great work!!
Super clean install
Great video! You’re calculations at the end are interesting, I presume you assume that both systems are running 24/7 when you estimate the heat pump to be 21% cheaper to run. Reality for me is that the boiler won’t lose much efficiency when cycling whilst I think the heat pump would, I run mine around 40% of the time in winter. It would be good to see how a heat pump compares under this scenario
Heat pumps don't cycle... My guy atleast not any in the past 10 years. They are all inverter based and will adjust the heat output to match the temp inside the building. Old heatpumps would ramp up to 100% until they hit their target temp and then shut off than when it got to a few degrees below that target they would kick back on and that can loss you upto 30% efficiency right there. A new heatpump will just run at 60% if that's what's needed to maintain the desired temp.
@@randybobandy9828 "Heat pumps don't cycle... My guy atleast not any in the past 10 years. "
New single and two phase heat pumps do very much still exist, and they're several thousand cheaper to buy than variable phase units.
Heat pumps still cycle when it’s 10c outside or when user deciders to zone the system and no additional volume in the system is available
They also cycle a lot when installed with buffers and flow rates are different on both sides causing distortion
They can only modulate to 30% of max output at best and they have higher output with higher external temps
@wisenber what are you talking about phases? I'm talking about the compressor. Thousands cheaper? Lol even the cheapest heat pumps that are sub $1000 are inverter based.
Great video, everything nicely explained! I was impressed by how perfectly you did all the piping with manual bender - these copper pipes at one point looked like a piece of modern art!
Air-to-air heat pumps are great in a moderate climate like in UK, but in regions with much colder winters ground-based heat pumps make a big change. Too bad it's a such an expensive investment!
You said that it would be 21% cheaper than using a previous gas boiler. How does it apply with energy prices raising so dramatically? Probably it's still better to rely on electricity, since you can always invest a bit more and put some PV on the roof and there's no way to generate your own natural gas 😉
In my country now everything is so unstable - I don't know what will happen with gas prices, electricity prices, I don't even know if my PV rules will stay as they are (the government said it will, but it's hard to believe them). My home is using a gas boiler, and since heatpump is a huge investment I'm considering putting a multisplit air conditioner with ability to switch into heating - of course, efficiency isn't that great as with full-sized heat pump, but I'm hoping for it to help me escape from the raising gas prices.
What do you think about such a solution?
Have a nice day!
Just check the major air to air manufacturers. They are even more efficient than the Vaillant presented here. I just installed Mitsubishi with 530%, while Panasonic goes up to 600% but unfortunately for double the price
@@maggok5522 Thanks, I'll have a look. With these raising prices such investments will quickly pay off 😀
We have air-to-water pumps in colder climates now too (lithuania). Ground based ones have completely gone out of fashion.
That said I do wonder if split systems are even better and simpler solution.
@@maggok5522 Is tha 5.3 COP (not 530 % efficiency) in cooling or heating mode? At what exterior/interior air temperature? Read the specs very carefully!
@@nickwinn7812 I was referring to SCOP for European climate. One needs to look at the EU energy label selecting the area where you live. It will tell you the efficiency of your heat pump during heating season considering your climate. For my area in Germany regular air conditioners are between 5 and 6. Btw..SCOP EU and US are completely different
Top class job again , well narrated, can't wait for the follow up .
I am super curious myself as how it will perform in the winter
Really lovely work mate, super neat!!
Thank you! Cheers!
Excellent, informative video. Would you advocate draining an existing ASHP system to remove the glycol and installing anti-freeze valves? Regrettably I have a Mitsubishi ASHP system and the COP is never higher than 3.2 so any tweaking to improve the system is worth it to my mind.
yes, I would remove glycol and install anti-freeze valves.
Insulation and air tightness are key when it comes to heat pumps. Many builders don’t have the right training in these areas.
The vast majority have no training , no idea and no care - building standards today are appalling
@@orange1666 I suspect building standards set by regulators are fine but some builders cut corners and ignore them.
really looking forward to the follow up video!
Your work is a piece of art…🥰
❤
Marginal gain for a very fortunate few who have the resources for retrofit HP system. My friend lives in Stockholm and he installed a vertical ground source heating system about 12 years ago at cost of around €45000.00 . The home built in late 70,s is incredibly comfortable and their energy bills are virtually nothing. They sold so the new owners will really benefit long term . What software did you use to come up with 6kw ?
Are there any ongoing service and maintenance costs associated with the GSHP? What's it's useful life?
Good video , but guess very few people who need retro fitting will have triple glazing , insulation at this levels , radiators which will likely need upgrading . Older non pressurised systems with larger circulation pipes and also oil fired burners will need highly expensive and disruptive works to be done. Overalll heat pumps great idea but retro fitting has major complications. I myself have solar and additional woood burning stove connected to heating system and feel it would require major problems to be overcome involving flooring , tiling , pipe work removed and would be expensive beyond logic and would be in excess of 30000 pounds if not much more. Love heat pump for new dwellings and less complicated builds especially newer builds where much of the insulation etc would be better. Feel for now will maybe add battery to solar and add additional insulation where possible. Ps oil boiler replaced on last ten years so upto date tech for it.
Why don't you guys use simple wall mounted air handlers?... For your heatpumps like the rest of the world? They don't need to be retrofitted, all you need to do it run your refrigerant lines from the indoor to the outdoor unit via a 50cm hole.
I am amazed at the amount of money that it must cost to instal the systems that you put in, and put in very well they are. Looks like we are going full circle after 30 years of me taking out cylinders when pulling in a combi boilers. Thanks for sharing
yes, combi should have never happened on a scale it did.
@@UrbanPlumbers combi has made or rather given many poor people a benifit that would have not been in reach before!!!
Elitist only systems are not benefiting ordinary people for a while yet.
@@UrbanPlumbers I'm sure for your rich clients combi boilers are awfully passé. Much better to drop 20 to 30 thousand on the latest thing to go with their 100k electric car in the drive 🙄
a good combi is very useful
So much to see and so much to learn from your video
Another good video. Just been through a similar exercise and went for viessmann 11kw boiler for a heat loss of 7kw and PDHW at around 15kw. Flow temp designed for 55 degree flow with weather comp and weather comp blender for UFH in extension.
When doing your comparison how does 10 year cost of ownership compare? You could have made old boiler more efficient by using PDHW and reducing flow temp to 50 degrees as you said radiators etc were fine at 40, this would have made the boiler more efficient, let's say more like 90% than 80%. What is the comparison cost between heat pump install and more efficient boiler? How much is annual service for heat pump system over gas boiler - and importantly how many people can do this well, what about comparison cost for spares.
While I think heat pumps have a place I think an honest and complete 10 year total cost of ownership still favours a gas boiler,
Might be a different case in 3-5 years but currently they are more expensive to buy, install and service and this is not made up from potential differences in efficiency.
I am happy to be proven wrong, but my boiler sized on heat loss and 55 flow temp, PDHW and unvented hot water system change from old gas boiler and vented gravity hot water was based in all the above.
Keep up the good work.
My favourite solution (at least on paper) is a hybrid of a small HP with a gas boiler. From purely running cost pint of view this has a chance of being the cheapest option. Also dhw would be on gas alone.
I will be testing this kind of setup in my next house that I am starting to look for in Sep.
90% efficient boiler is still more expensive to run than 400% scop HP.
Although people charge more for HP servicing, HP generally should have much less faulted and double the life span of an average gas boiler.
Servicing cost will come down.
Also, once the house is HP ready with rads and pipework - just the heat source swap will be pretty comparable to boiler swap and possibly will just take a day.
I love the tech and I can see how it will be the future of heating. Not for everyone and not for every house but HPs will play a big role in the domestic heating market
@@UrbanPlumbers we have solar PV diverted excess into the hot water. We did this when the top offer was in for solar generation so it's very good for us. Not used gas or paid for elec for hot water for 2 months, but we know we are lucky.
Would still be interested in a total cost overview from your perspective of gas boiler set up efficiently is X, say £3500, 90% efficient, heat pump buy and install Y, say £6500 (for easy math) at 400% efficient. So over 10 years cost diff is £300 per year. Service cost I don't know but say £60 gas boiler, £100 heat pump, so £340 per year total.
Like this I still see heat pumps getting closer, but still a good way to go when compared to a system sized and set up as you have described in some of your other videos about saving money with existing systems and controls
And who knows heat pump efficiency might be like boilers, says 94% on the box and dies about 80 if poorly set up. Heat pump 400% on the box or more, 250% maybe ..... Time will tell.
And in the meantime Elon musk will come up with a small cold fusion reactor in a show box and we will all have been wrong :-)
@@UrbanPlumbers it’s probably not worth paying the standing charge for gas for the ultimate in efficiency.
Boiler will be cheaper in that time frame.
One may allow my children to have only a moderately changed world.
Other one continues to boil the world for them.
With the cost of gas crisis, we all desperately need to insulate our home effectively asap and the government needs to help / make it happen. Whatever thrnsource5of the heat we need to hold onto it not let it rush out our roofs or walls / floors like now. Beyond a joke that we haven't sorted this before now.
@@Lewis_Standing Agree about insulation. We have done what we can with good double glazing, cavity insulation, lots in the loft but now it’s diminishing returns for doing much more. Also need to think about ventilation as house getting blocked up so might investigate a PIV unit.
Everyone should do what they can but I’m not sure homes are the worlds biggest issues, it’s a very small piece in a very large and complicated jigsaw.
Nice job Simon
The problem installing this system to an average house is going to be lack of good insulation, most houses would need 10 k plus spent on insulation and new windows and doors before even considering fitting a HP system , that's where the problem lies and most homeowners won't spend the money needed to do it unfortunately....
👍
Those houses need to be insulated regardless of the heat source
the heat source has nothing to do with the insulation, that only tells you how much heat you need, not how to get said heat into the building. your (wrong) concept of how heat pumps needs insulation is exactly what is the problem, not the heat pump or the insulation. people (and especially installers) need to learn these concepts have nothing to do with eachother. one is a source of heat and the other just tells you how much of said heat you need.
@@SupremeRuleroftheWorld you need insulation for heat pumps because you cannot electrically supply the comparable size to a gas boiler.
Generally the maximum domestic is 17kw. Therefore heat losses have to be managed down by insulation.
The drive towards HP's is restricted mainly by how badly made and insulated the vast majority of UK housing stock is. This is where high rebates should be directed towards. Reduce demand reduces dependency
this is also why much colder countries such as Sweden get by with HP's.
A gas boiler in a house made HP ready would use a similar sized boiler.
I'm quietly suspect of how the numbers are crunched but even the government official figures suggest gas is still cheaper over all iirc
@@richardbartlett6932 that is a breathtakingly wrong rant that is factually wrong on every level. It is obvious that you dont understand how heat pumps work or heating systems in general. I would recommend you watch some more youtube to educate yourself on this topic.
@@UrbanPlumbers not £10,000 fool
Really informative video, thank you
I love your video mate, I like it that much I have subscribed. You explain it so well I didn't know nothing about heat pumps thank you!
Right action taken Mike!
Great video, as always. Great install and you know your shit.
My problem is though, I have never come across any builder that insulates a house like that with out it being specified, in general only the very wealthy and builders that know what there doing which is very very few and this is a huge problem. Maybe in 5 to 10 years they will catch on, but its all about the bottom line for the builder and the home owner and this in my opinion us where the breakdown in the industry is going to happen. There just to expensive, when the grants are pulled, heat pumps won't be installed.
Was it 300mm pir insulation, no body dose that unless there thinking of installing a heat pump. This video shows that the heat pumps like solar are a play thing for the wealthy. Normal people are not going to do this. Gas is just to easy cheap and simple to install on a property for the foreseeable future.
Saying all that, i have no doubt that it will be a bit more efficient but how many years will it take to pay the install off?
Be good if you calculate that next year once you know the real cost of running.
In my opinion heat pumps work but there just not at the races for the vast majority of normal home owners in this country. God help us we can hardly afford to heat homes this year never mind fitting 70mm pir on the walls and 300mm in ceilings and then fit a heat pump.
It's laughable to think 600,000 heat pumps a year is a target.
Looking forward to next summers video, I think you have a great opportunity to sit down calculate everything and give both side of the coin on a video next year.
Keep up the good work!👊
all new homes are build to a standard that can accpet heat pumps without any issues. I understand that retorfit is difficult and can be expensive - but there is absolutely no reason to keep installing gas boiler in new builds.
@@UrbanPlumbers There should be a more advanced system than merely air-to-air heat pump aka reverse air conditioner.
I would build new buildings with PVT solar panels and a ventilation system that can route all exhausted geat back into the heat pump.
Usually the water cylinder can act as the heat battery bu ideally we could start using sand or somethimg else to heat at night and in the winter.
The 20% financial in ideal scenario you project here just isn't worth the investment imo
@@zteaxon7787 this property already has MVHR and solar PV plus the battery is getting installed soon, so will save much more than 20% of running cost compared to gas. Also, gas prices are going at double the rate of electricity at the moment, so the equation may be even more favorable than this.
@@UrbanPlumbers If this property has had all this work done to it , i would suggest that a back-up video about the difference in energy /running costs is totally useless, to have a fair comparison you would need to run a modern boiler at 90% efficiency with the upgraded insulation and triple glazing only. Then compare the results on that, with this building having solar PV, battery storage, MVHR, upgraded insulation, triple glazing you will never work out the differences between which technology is contributing to what.
"we can hardly afford to heat homes this year never mind fitting 70mm pir on the walls". These things go together. Fit some insulation+airtightness and your heating bills will be greatly reduced as well as your comfort much improved. 'I can't sharpen the axe, I'm too busy chopping' is a very shortsighted view.
I don't know why people aren't going for air-conditioning with a heat exchanger unit so you can run your radiators and hot water. And no need to do a massive upgrade of your radiators or pipe volume. Great video and always a pleasure to watch you at work.
I can't wait for part 2 of thus video about the figures.thanks again for a brilliant video
Why run a wet system with large radiators (and/or underfloor heating) when you could use gas and head units. Saves floor space etc, no real concern about flushing the system and corroding pipes and the risk of leaks. Response times much better too. Hot water... really should be heated on supply, heating it to just sit in a tank is extremely backwards.
@@drsquirrel00 stored hot water installed correctly with a return I think is very efficient, yes a cylinder takes up space but I don't think you can beat the performance.
Great video with really clear information. If only the average uk installer had half of your professionalism and common sense!
Thanks 👍
This heat pump sceptic subbed to see the update on running costs giving the steep rise in electricity. Interesting video sir.
Welcome! Please stay along for the updates!
Would have been really interesting to compare consumption of the 6kW heat pump vs. the Viessmann 200 job you did a few months ago. I'm willing to bet the client will not save much (if anything) over a gas boiler that can modulate as low as Viessmann.
Frankly, I'm surprised no one has compared actual numbers on the best boiler you can buy vs. the best heat pump you can buy. Maybe worth considering for your follow up?
He will. Even the most efficiency boiler is ‘only’ 90-93% efficiency. This Hp has a chance of going well over 400%. Still 4.4 times higher than V200.
@@UrbanPlumbers I believe the V200 can modulate much lower than the Valiant boiler you replaced. Don't mean to correct you but the v200 is rated at 98% efficiency at full modulation. Would be good to know the cost savings per month if any and the delta in installed price for both.
That would be an incredible episode!
@@singlendhot8628 yes your right it modulates down to 3.5kwh - so running cost at lowest about 20p gas before aug/sep increases I believe the Worcester Bosch 8000 can modulate down to 10-1 ratio the best on the market given electric is 40p now already per kWh we would need a 5 to 1 cop rating to cost the same power for power to be cheaper than gas in an ideal world setup. Honestly I think they could have just swapped to a 24kwh and it would have worked out the same and still have provided enough heat , unless they are adding solar and leaving on wether comp 24/7 with low wether protect of 3c it will not be much in it
@@ram64man 200-W modulates down to around 2 kW in a well insulated home. It is far superior to anything Bosch makes. Take a look at a previous video UrbanPlumbers did to see advanced weather comp in action. The combination of the two makes it hard for a heat pump to beat! Which why a comparison would solve this debate.
We only install 200-W these days!
consumption is a factor of how high (or low) you set the thermostat. its not dependant on the machine. you need to compare the cost of heat output. the short math is that to get the same heat from 1m3 of gas in a good and modern gas boiler you need 1.5~2kWh of electricity. do the math yourself on the price of each. 1 unit of gas versus 2 units of electricity.
Yes I am impressed
But no price mentioned for system and installation (without subsidy) and also the cost of previous insulation of house to reach the standard required for efficiency . Despite the horrible costs of energy at the moment, this will remain out of reach for myself.
Bu again congratulations on good work.
wait till the fan bearings wear and becomes noisy.
@@tonysheerness2427 so there is an argument against bearings of any type… so what is argument against system???
@@martinpaul6146 Noise pollution
@@tonysheerness2427 know where your coming from and could be a problem but….
not sure noise pollution has only to do with a heating system. You should hear my neighbours.
@@martinpaul6146 In blocks of flats where the first heat pumps were installed, one droning or squealing fan you may be able to ignore but several? Good luck with your neighbours.
Savings can be supercharged if the heat pump is connected to a good solar PV system with battery storage. Expensive total set up, but the saving is phenomenal.
Excellent ❤️💯Work As Always Should Be Interesting To See The Results 👀👀
Great video. I'm delighted with my ASHP. 12kw unit, I have solar panels and 14kw of battery storage, and an Eddi diverter. We've had it for 6 months and even when the weather is cold the underfloor heating we have keeps the downstairs really warm, and the energy we use is less than if we were paying for gas. Especially this winter I dread to think what our gas bill would be like.
We did upgrade the radiators too. We also coupled our log burner to the system so we can reduce the energy consumption when we use the log burner.
It did cost a fair bit but we did a large extension so it was worth it. The past 6 months we've spent around £50 (averaged out over 6 months) on electricity per month.
We charge our batteries if they're not charged at night time on economy 7 tariff.
Definitely worthwhile doing whilst the government grants exist.
Wow, how did you couple the wood burner to the CH? Great idea
@@ianrandell311 I'm no plumber but from my understanding theres a couple of diverter valves that take the hot water system via the log burner, when the log burner gets to a certain temperature the valve opens and let's the heating system run the water through it. I mean you won't be able to heat the house off it, but it increases the temperature of the water in the heating system which means the heating system needs less energy to heat it up to the required temperature.
Welcome to fantasy land. Great idea, unrealistic outlay for most people. When it’s no longer priced for virtue signalling maybe it’ll be a worthy substitute for gas boilers.
@@brynleytalbot778 if you say so. As I said. We did an extension so it made sense to rip out all the old heating and go for a more modern system. I like my 'fantasy' land it's comfortable, and I have a lovely home as a result.
Yes the outlay was significant but I'd have happily done it. I accept it's not suitable for everyone.
Ultimately we need to move away from gas, and I'm doing a tiny little bit of effort to do so. Sure my impact will be tiny but it's helped my bills, a lot. The installation didn't cost that much really. The 5k grant from the government made it actually very affordable, though i concede that it was a tiny percentage of the extension.
@@lehoff you installed a 14kw hp without any upgrade in insulation?
I'll stick with my very new high efficiency gas boiler...thanks all the same👍
Really liked this video, everything explained perfectly for a thick average Joe like myself
Thank you !
Very interesting video. I can't get over how big it all is, that would take up masses of space in my house in comparison to my new combi boiler.
this is a small unit! 10-12kw are double the size. It is bigger and more expensive than a combi, but can be cheaper to run, will last 20 years if installed well and cuts emissions by 70%-75%
@@UrbanPlumbers All fair points (and great video!) but, if you can't fit it in, you can't fit it in. My tiny utility room wouldn't be able to swallow this and I can't think where else it would go. How much cheaper are they to run, out of interest?
Great video, but as you point out a SCOP of 4 will only just equal a badly sized gas boiler.
I presume that a well installed condensing boiler, correctly set up with properly sized emitters should achieve 92-94% efficient ErP.
Therefore the heat pump will never even equal the gas setup even assuming the heat pump works as advertised - my 3 heat pumps (GSHP & ASHP) certainly don't achieve the manufacturers claims even with underfloor heating on both the ground and !st floor.
Its simply cheaper to use gas with the current 4:1price ratio gas/electric.
Gas is a primary fuel and suffers no transmission losses, only pumping costs whereas 1.7% of the electricity transferred over the transmission
network is lost, and a further 5-8% is lost over the distribution networks.
So up to 9.7% of distribution losses are just part of the equation as the generation of the electricity in the 1st place.
Over half of the energy in gas and around two thirds of the energy in nuclear and coal used to produce electricity is lost as waste heat.
Heat pumps have a place but I am seriously concerned that they will become another government sponsored disaster.
@Andrew Stafford-Jones If you don't care at all about emissions then sure the heatpump is probably slightly more expensive to run than a good condensing gas install, but if we don't care about emissions then we are all in _serious_ trouble in the long term. Also prices are not fixed over time, as the massive rise in gas prices recently demonstrates. Thing will change pretty dramatically one way or another over the 15-20 year lifetime of an installation done now.
@@xxwookey Electricity is not "green" at all unless its produced from solar, wind or Hydro.
It takes about 3.5 units of energy to produce 1 unit of electricity.
Gas is "prime" fuel and therefore only needs cleaning and pumping, not energy intensive.
@@andrewstafford-jones4291 Gas is a fossil fuel and we have to stop using it ASAP. And methane leakage is not insignificant. It's now significantly higher-carbon to burn gas in boilers in the UK than it is to use electricity as our grid is down to about 220gmCO2e/kWh. And that will continue to improve along with the grid. Your argument made (some) sense a decade ago, and is reflected in the SAP 2012 rules which persisted far too long and caused housebuilders to keep fitting gas boilers for far too long. It really has been time to stop doing that for a while.
@@xxwookey While I broadly agree that heat pumps should be encourage, I would add that gas boilers have a place even in today's world. An air source heat pump will simply not work in a poorly insulated (single glazing, no cavity walls etc.) home, no matter what any Heat Geeks say.
In homes built from 1990 onwards, yes, they can work well. In homes with land for a ground source pump, yes, they can work well. All others need not apply. Focus on insulation upgrades first, then rooftop solar PV !
@@xxwookey Your figures seem a little off, perhaps you are not including transmission and distribution loss, correct figures are:
The CO2 emission factor used is 0.309 kge / kWh, taken from BEIS (2018) [1] . This includes an allowance for the 7.8% of transmission/distribution losses on the national grid [1]. There is a more recent (2019) document [2] with a smaller factor of 0.277 kge / kWh. However, the 2018 value is preferred here because much of the reduction is due to the switch from burning coal to burning wood pellets, with the burning of wood pellet being treated as zero CO2 emission. There are strong arguments that large scale burning of wood cannot be considered to be zero carbon [3][4].
The CO2 generated by burning natural gas is 0.185 kg / kWh
Very good video and as always an A+ installation by you. It does illustrate the main draw back of ASHP, which is that even in a house that’s had thousands spent on it to bring it up to excellent levels of insulation, and with a very well sized, installed and commissioned appliance. The best guess at the moment is that it will save about twenty percent over a gas bill. But it’s cost thousands of pounds more than a gas install. So basically there is no hope of this installation ever paying for its self during the lifetime of the equipment and with electricity prices set to rise in oct and then again in Jan 23, that saving gets reduced even further.
Little but true. But a lot of these upgrades should have been done for condensing boilers, because they are supposed to be a low temperature heating system. Except everyone was too cheap to install any better emitters or wider pipes etc so didn't bother and basically most condensing boilers never do anything of the sort.
Most of the "heat pump" upgrades are simply low temperature heating system upgrades and not recurring costs. So in 25 yrs the next heat pump change will simply be a unit change bish bash bosh.
Also electricity costs are going up - but less than gas is proportionately. Was 3p gas vs 18p electricity (6x difference) now 7p gas and 30p electricity (4x). New price cap rumoured to be 15p gas vs 50p electric
(3.5x).
Plus all social levies are on electricity but as that's now much cleaner than gas should be moved over.
@@Lewis_Standing But you could also make a good point of just doing the system upgrades to allow for the existing boiler to run at a low flow temperature. There wasn’t anything wrong with the existing boiler or cylinder. Most likely had years left in them. Manufacturing a heat pump, buffer tank and cylinder, with all the energy and carbon that produces, then shipping them halfway round the world, to use it to replace perfectly good appliances isn’t exactly environmentally friendly. I personally think if someone has a band A condensing boiler then they shouldn’t qualify for a heat pump great, system upgrades maybe, but making boilers a disposable item is not good for the environment. It’s like the green lobby and government think all this equipment just appears out of thin air with no carbon impact. Binning off perfectly good modern boilers is mental.
ecisting boiler and cylinder was installed very badly and never condesned and run below 80% efficiency. It also had 3 pumps in series - it was a terrible system.
Boiler and cylinder will get upgrade of contorls to run fully weather compensated and will be installed at another property.
The objective is decarbonising the country/world before big chunks become uninhabitable. The idea that this work doesn't 'payback' is just completely wrong-headed. Almost nothing else we buy (clothes, cars, computers, bikes, food, kitchens) 'pays back', so why do heating systems have to?
@@Lewis_Standing when was is 3p vs 18p? It was more like 2.7p vs 11p
What a great video and a very knowledgeable, brilliant heating engineer.
He's a plumber, not an Engineer
@@hvacdesignsolutions Take a hike bud, he's both where I'm from.
I am really thinking aboud installing a hybrid installation at my house with this
heatpump. U make me geek more about my job man! 😅
that is what I am planning to do - keep a gas boiler for DHW and below 2C temps and install an undersized air source for super efficiency and cheap heating. Don't need any grants for that or the hot water cylinder. It is not expensive to do either.
I’m so glad I watched this. I’m now utterly convinced you have to be a fool to go down the heat pump root. Gas boilers just.can not be beaten.
Did you listen to comparative costs ?Hasnt Mr Putin put a dent in your argument ? Isn’t the future wind/solar electricity,which is far cheaper to produce than gas ?
@@mikehutchison4892 😂😂 Try engaging your brain. You sound like Liz Truss 😛Embarrassing,
What about the CO2 emissions from a gas boiler?
Millions of homes replacing gas boilers with heat pumps saves millions of tonnes of CO2 going into the atmosphere.
@@pauladams5673 😂😂Good one. With people like you about with critical thinking we are saved 😂😂😂
@@Mizzkan I get that you have a view, but why not try to answer his question about fossil-fuel emissions? Should we just look the other way?
I’ll stick with my gas boiler, this heat pump ideas can only work when your building is sealed or rather insulated to such a standard where you get virtually nil heat loss, for any of us living in council or housing association property, there’s going to be a lot of convincing for them to get rid of gas boilers. Heat pumps, you’ve got a long way to go with that.
wrong conclusion. insulation tells you how much heat you need, not how you get it in the building. your underfloor heating or radiators dont care in the slightest how you heat up the water you feed it. you really think 40 degrees of water from a gas boiler is different than 40 degree water from a heat pump? and the reason to switch is extremely simple: its cheaper to run. councils and HOA's love saving money.
There is no need for nil heat loss. It does not exist by the way. Even passive houses have heat loss.
You can heat any home with a heat pump if the heat emitters are large enough and / or flow temp high enough - it just will cost you much more.
We need to insulate regardless, and once we do, heat pumps make a lot more sense than gas.
They can use 1/4 of energy that gas boiler need. Surly that has to make sense to anyone.
So effectively what you're saying is that you're happy to burn gas to get high temperature water because your house is pissing out heat? That's some proper mental gymnastics...
@@TimJW what I’m actually saying is, my landlord will need some convincing about heat pumps. That’s all I’m saying.
@@Kulvinder1974 focus on the finances, that is all landlords care about. and heat pumps are cheaper to own/operate. you dont even need maintenance apart from hosing down the outdoor unit once or twice a year.
Nice pipe work!
Great video. 👍
Heat pumps absolutely are the future. But not sure that air to water heat pumps really trump multisplit air-conditioning overall.
The main problem with air-water is that they have too many stages to them. Running R32 all the way from the outside to the room you want to heat typically has a COP of 4 compared to around 3 for an air-water pump.
This is slighly unfair as one of the main reason for the difference is because the wall units for air conditioning have fans in them and so can put far more energy into the room compared to the temperature delta of its coil.
But sticking with the 1970s approach to heating our homes is going to cost us a lot by way of efficiency. Just as the approach taken when my parents were children of having a coal fire in each room was best consigned to history.
Stick with my gas boiler thanks, cheaper to buy and still cheaper to run as I don’t need it on 24/7 or to get bigger radiators, air sill my house, gas boiler 2500 air source plus upgrades 30k
No they aren't cheaper to run, the best boilers run at about 90% efficiency. Heat pumps run between 300 and 400% efficiency.
Yes but you don’t have to run basically a kettle for 24/7 they are bot suitable for the majority of uk housing stock
When the gas is turned off then enjoy ur gas boiler 😢😢😢😢
Adding a battery storage system charged from economy 7 electricity would increase the cost savings even further, but that is true of almost all home systems. Great video!
Excellent video, keep up the good work
Thank you !
Those callefi freeze valves that we have supplied ,now come with 28mm compression fittings rather than an1" male thread so they are much more convenient, up till this point we were using 28x1" press union nuts (geberitt) which are perfect if a little costly. As a firm we have fitted a number of these vaillants now, the wiring is a doddle and after your first one the setup on the controller is fairly straight forward too. The only issue we have had is siting the outdoor unit far enough away from drainage, but i think we have just been unlucky with the properties weve fitted them on. Smartest looking outdoor unit too (the daikin high temp one is a close second though!)
Where do you get compression anti freeze please? Vaillant unit is so easy to wire compared to Daikin. Not a fan of Daikin myself.
@@UrbanPlumbers All of our kit is supplied by a firm called RES based in Yeovil, as i said they usually turn up in 1" thread, exact same caleffi boxes, but the valves were compression, saves on fittings and space too as the valves are very short in compresson. Hope this helps! Congratulations on the continuing success of your channel too.
@@UrbanPlumbers you should try the panasonic aquarea, they are considerably simpler. they also use 5/4 so its stupid easy to directly hook it up to a hose.
@@UrbanPlumbers we were using 1" sockets straight off the back of the heat pump but Midsummer supplies now send out the 28mm compressions. 😁
@@mikecole4952 do you mean midsummer have 28mm compression anti freeze valves?
REALY GOOD VIDEO, thank you.
Great video👍. Qq regarding the property. Is the level of insulation they have similar to something like an enerphit retrofit? Or would that be alot more extreme? I've tried to find examples online of this as that's what I'm looking to get done to my house when budget permits but I've not been able to find any examples online of people that have done it or any companies that offer this service.
Looking forward to how this performs at higher DT. I imagine having your math proven correct in real world is super cool.
Thanks: really excellent presentation.
Glad you liked it!
@Urban Plumbers Can you do a video on the hybrid system set up you are planning (with diagrams and such)? Would think this would be appealing for a lot of folks looking to install an ASHP but having a combi for DHW and low temperatures.
Love your videos - very informative.
I have Solar PV and an Eddi, and Solar Tubes too. Could I get a heat pump for just the rads only ?
Is the store to heat pump just a closed pressurized circuit / loop identical to that of Solar Thermal Tubes ? Or can an external unit connect directly to the central heating rads circuit ?
Super! I trained as a refrigeration technician 12 years ago and could never understand why we are still building houses with gas boilers. Glad I’m out of it, but we should be doing this all over the place
yeah and lets see how it works when there is no electricity to run it
The building code in some countries like France makes it so that you can't get a building permit anymore with a gas boiler. This was a law passed long before Putin's war to Ukraine and the resulting gas price hike. More and more countries will get there eventually, but I agree this evolution happens way too slowly compared to the climate change urgency. I guess it's in our genes to burn stuff and kill hairy mammoths.
@@nerolowell2320 You are aware that modern gas boilers do require electricity to run, right? And the same building code that deprecates gas boilers also make a small amount of renewable energy (usually photovoltaic) mandatory and incentivizes the implementation of hybrid systems, such as a coupled solar thermal array that makes a heat pump consume very little electricity.
In any case, a battery pack becomes more and more a necessity for essentials such as lighting, Internet, radio, basic heating, basic eating (cooking), security, even TV, if only to watch the weather channel point out on the map where Putin sent his nukes.
Crazy heatloss! In Finland you's get the same at about -10 with similarly old house :D
Great job! Trying to persuade customers that their boiler is way too big is a real problem though. You should see the insanity of over capacity on commercial systems!
That is pipe work to be proud of.
Do you also use thermostat data to determine the heat loss? I wonder if all these tests are needed (Measuring the walls, checking the insulation and so on)
I absolutely admire your work. Too bad you are not located in California as I would definitely hire you!
The follow-up will be very interesting.
Great solution if you have space and a well insulated house. Unfortunately most applications don’t have either though.
Excellent pipe fitting
We use liquid PTFE on those Anti Freeze valves, good video.
That’s what I do. Apparently there are compression fittings with new anti freeze from Calleffi
Interesting video. How practical are the side venting heat pumps in tight spaces?
There seems to be a shortage of top venting heat pumps to choose from.
For good reason - most top vent units are mainly ac based or really high btu capacity and are huge, also because they are open to the elements they often have long term issues with electrical most don’t last much more than 10years , my us install all three units are side exit , about 50 db in -15 c my recent trip back out there the were still cop 3.2 in 28c
Your videos are excellent. Fancy doing an install in manchester 🤔
A bit too far for me, but check what is called ‘Heat Geek Map’ on Google
I really enjoy watching your installations , been doing HVAC in New Jersey for over 40 years our climate in the north east can be brutal, but in the last 15 to 20 years our winter seasons have been warming up. With the new tech on heat pumps it's looking better. Great job!
Thank you for your comment! Greetings from the UK.
It is a worry, that to fight global warming we need global warming to make it work!
Maybe this is not the system….?
@@martinpaul6146 we don't need global warming to make heat pumps work. There is energy in the air even at minus temperatures.
Your copper pipe work looks like a art sculpture... Pretty Epic
thank you !
It's definitely a work of art, shame it has to be hidden with all that lagging!
Thank you for honest, clear explanation on an air source heat exchange pump. I had used gas boiler central heating in the decades living in UK. I made a break to install an air source heat exchange pump in a new well insulated semi-passive house with HVAC. Having living in this new house from beginning of December last year for over 9 months, I am very satisfied with my decision despite the relatively higher costs to switch from gas boiler central heating.
My electricity bill estimates since January this year are less than15KWh per month with air recuperation, triple glazing to cut down heat loss in winter and solid heating through underfloor 40C water circulation and a surprise bonus on automatic switching between warming & cooling with underfloor 18C water (at 24-hour average external temperature of 17C or below & 20C or higher respectively).
I highly recommend switching to heat exchange pump from gas boiler.
You are a very wrong silly individual
This video has a like from me. Not because it was in my recommended, but because this man looks almost like Carl Segan. And it's funny to think Carl Segan some how is trying to save the planet by installing energy efficient heating solutions. He took matters into his own hands, literally :).
Excellent and impressive. The homeowner knew what was required and has clearly invested a shed full of money into insulating their home. What sensor and data logging will the system have to accurately determine performance in terms of ambient, room temperatures achieved and power in KW hr to achieve that - to inform your future video?
Not sure yet. Researching it at the moment. Any suggestions?
@@UrbanPlumbers the ideal test would be to find a pair of identically insulated semis, and for a sudden of each type into each house, and keep the target thermostatic settings the same in each house.
I'm guessing that opportunity is rarer than unicorn poo
Osohotwater, who makes cylinders for Vaillant as you say, also make the unique Super Coil (SC) cylinder where all of the connections are on top of the cylinder so it is has a very tidy look. A common use for it is where the gas boiler is above the cylinder in a tight space like a cupboard. So the blending valve, temperature & pressure relief valve, expansion vessels, motorised valve and all pipework are all situated on top of the cylinder (hidden under the lid). All their cylinders have concealed wiring as you demonstrated as well as concealed heating elements that don't stick out. Question remains whether these types of cylinders are as easier to service as standard cylinders.
They are very nice - just a bit wider than most though
Great work as usual but time to make the move to Monument Master benders. It's like moving to press fit once you get the hang of them you won't go back.
I had a look at them. I was actually meant to order 22mm version
I have inspected many properties which had air source heat pumps installed, virtually all people who had them disliked them as they turned out to be expensive to run and did not supply sufficient heat. In some cases landlords were in the process of removing them and installing new gas heating.
That’s what happens when they are installed by people who don’t understand how it should be done. Happens a lot, but does not mean they don’t work. When done correctly the are cheaper to run than gas and will outlive any modern gas boiler.
@@UrbanPlumbers Theoretically !
I have a Air source heat pump that was fitted quite some time ago. It is a lovely system and quite cheap to run however living in a ground floor flat with old windows and I also heat upstairs through heat loss. About the only downside is the water temp of 40c and if I want a hot bath I have to boost it.
@@zlmdragon. not true. gas boilers for heating and DHW have around 24kw to produce DHW. If you had a 6kW boiler, you'd have a tiny pee in your shower head. Modulating gas valves are able to reduce to 1/10 of the nominal power to adjust the heating requirements. HP need a lot of space (properly oversized compared to gas boilers) and a change of habits when using DHW.
Hi great tidy installation! What are the buffer vessel for and what was the other small vessel next to the buffer vessel called and used for?
Expansion vessel for hot water and one for heating. Buffer is used as volumiser to extend run times of the heat pump
So you like the aerotherm heatpumps from vaillant?
I will get mine installed this year also. Heating a currently being renovated 190m2 house built in 1965.
I hope my plumber installs my heatpump as neatly as you.
Thanks for the video
Have you worked with the Intergas Xource 7 yet? I have one installed and was wondering about your opinion on them. We run a 25c flow temperature, new build. Think we use about 2500kwh a year on heating now. And about 500kwh for hot water.
Great vid, my question is how does id compare in the winter ?
ruclips.net/video/gMMyhBku6Ic/видео.html
beautiful job, perfect running pipes:)
I have Panasonic heat pump:)
Has it been running ok?
@@UrbanPlumbers yes. I have solar panels aswell. But everything is in Poland. If here prices are not take from space then I will fit here also, is better overall yearly temp here. In that climate you can get C.O.P. 5
Hi Szymon, I’m installing an air source heat pump and have wet underfloor heating in a 50mm liquid screed with 200mm pipe spacing. If I run the system at a flow temperature of 45c with a return temp of 40c, would that cause my engineered wood floor to overheat? The maximum recommended temp is 27c for the flooring. Would a thicker sand cement screed help in this situation? I don’t want the ASHP cycling continuously. Thanks
Def going this way. We have a large house and a 10 kw heat pump will do the whole place. Solar going in first though. Putting in a 30kw system.We are going totally off grid. Not being held to ransom by global corporations anymore. Even if you get a small system you can run for half the week on your own power and it is easily expanded . It will pay for itself quickly and whatever happens you will be free and warm.
Make sure you invest in the right panels (Sharp, Hyundai, Solarwatt) and inverter brands (Enphase, SolarEdge) before pulling the trigger. Also bear in mind that solar doesn't work well enough to cover heat pump usage in the winter months but it will more than make up for it during the warmer months, when you can sell your excess energy to the grid!