yes!!! more people saying they like long episodes, i luv episodes on so many things hahahaha! Im getting a lot of comments re my vids being too long.... i may not be the right channel for some ;)
Long videos are the way to go for those ones who prefer to dive deep into the topic! I absolutely love your complex approach! PS @Shane thank you for all your work too! You both guys are doing so much for cycling! You are LEGENDS!
Did my first immersive wax round a few weeks ago and was much easier than expected, did 3 chains one after the other. Drip lubes feel like more work to me with the painful cleaning process each time, even with the smoove I used before was a nightmare cleaning the jockey wheels. I wouldn't dream of adding any type of lube over my waxed chain or going back to drip lube again. My big complaint with wax is how hard it is to get hold of the wax in my country, only option I could find was importing Secret wax through the amazon store at a premium. The cost of replacing my sram GX cassette after 1500km was the final straw for me to go with immersive wax.
Absolutely correct on all points made Ant!! I am not sure why wax is so hard to get hold of in a lot of places in europe, hopefully that will improve. However in the total cost to run drivetrain, especially when components are expensive, the cost of the lubricant is typically the very small component of the equation - especially if the one bag even though expensive is going to last circa 10,000km road / 5000km offroad. It is a big myth i am always trying to bust that immersive waxing is a big hassle. If anyone does basically any practical level of drivetrain maintenance with most drip lubricants, waxing is almost always on balance the easier option as there is just no cleaning needed 99% of the time. Thanks for taking the time to engage with good input for others to read
Hey Ant! yes cost of getting mspeedwax or hot melt can be a bit in some places - but, remember that over say 5000km of mtb or 10,000km road - in terms of total cost to run drivetrain, the lubricant cost is the very minor part, component wear rate is by far the dominant cost. So if a lubricant genuinely saves a lot of wear, which those products most definitely do, they pay for themselves many times over very quickly, even if it cost $100 a bag to get (and a bag lasts a long time). It is most definitely worth, if you can, ensuring you go up from GX chain to x01 level. NX and GX chains have horrific longevity, and when the chains wear, they take your other components with it. Srams x01 / xx1 chains are the worlds hardest wearing, longest lasting chains BY MILES. And xo1 chain literally will have about 20x the wear lifespan of a GX chain - there is a frankly ridiculous gap between the two levels. GX chains sell a lot more, as most of the world isnt across this fact yet, and so GX chain production is prioritised, getting hold of an x01 / xx1 chain is getting really tough. I just tried to re order more from sram importer in aus, and the eta for next stock to me is APPROXIMATELY mid next year!!! (i only get x01 or xx1, never ever ever ever GX - just dont do it for the chain). An x01 chain on msw or hot melt, you will not wear out that chain before you buy a new bike and start over.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I've been running the PC-X1 chain with GX 10-42 cassette, as far as I know that chain is the tier below XX1, XX1 is impossible to get in stock so not a option. I agree the cost of wax is minor when compared to replacing components.
Hi, i just bought a 3L ultrasonic cleaner with heating up to 80°C. Will put the chain in the hot water with wax pot along side. While wax heats, I can ultrasonic clean the chain alongside it. Then immerse in hot wax and ultrasonic coat the chain. Also great for cleaning chains. Cost me a 100 bucks. Thanks for all the advice.
Thanks for all your work testing this stuff. I know you often recommend the YBN chains with their SLA coating, but I was wondering if you had also done any testing on their S11 line of chains. If I can avoid it, I'd rather not get a chain with any kind of PTFE coating. I'm not so concerned about weight and watts saved, but if there's a significant durability penalty then I might reconsider. FWIW I'd be lubricating with Silca SCB.
Hey luke - no i havent had a chance to test that one - there are a bunch of chains i would like to longevity test but lubricant testing is just so flat out even with 3 machines going, i still have pretty long quote times for mfg's to test, and a bunch i need to test for general info. Chains with low friction coating do have a longer lifespan as that is the first line of defense against abrasive contamination wear - but the main defense is chromium platings on pin and overall quality of the steel used. One can still get excellent wear lifespan from more budget level chains if using a top lubricant option + maintenance (refer maintenance guide, instructions tab), or most especially if one is immersive waxing and re waxes frequently. If you rewax frequently chain metal just doenst come into play, everything is always sliding on a solid super slippery coating of wax. On the top waxes if you re wax every approx 300km - lifespan is very long. Every approx 200km - very very very long. Every 100km - you pretty much have a chain for life. Every 100km is not super practical, but between 100km to 200km is relatively easy if have two chains on rotation and can swap (one for mon to fri, one for weekend, or one each week depending on miles and conditions) and rewax both at once on rest day. PTFE ./ low friction coatings used are mostly inconsequential if there is always a polished solid wax coating that everything is sliding on instead.
Thanks for this information. I am a big time wax convert. Conditions here are always sandy/dusty but hard to get the brand name stuff. I now use A DIY paraffin with Teflon and then "top it off" with squirt to keep the time between full reapplication longer.
Hi Adam, First I want to thank you for all the effort you put into the testing and stuff. I have a question: How can I be sure the chain is perfectly prepared for the Waxing? Is it possible that one bath UFO clean replaces 4-5 baths of Mineral turps? Since mineral turps are exensive here, around 6€/Litre, I bought a bottle of UFO clean. It was my first chain cleaning. I only needed one bath of UFO clean and one bath of Isopropyl alcohol (new SRAM chain). First I wanted to do a second UFO clean bath but the Isopropyl alcohol stayed completly clear and the chain was doing some metallic sounds wenn it was dry.
Hey maffin! It is hard to tell just by looking at it but if you follow the instructions for cleaning with turps / metho - you are safe as that has been well established and tested, not just by me really this is carrying over right from the early friction facts days of prepping chains perfectly for lubricant on test. With UFO clean, i have been slow to officially update instructions to use this as CS own instructions demonstrate spraying chain on bike, which i am not going to recommend except of those who just cannot for some reason remove chain. So i managed to get in contact recently with the lady at ceramic speed who created UFO clean to confirm exactly how much ufo clean is need to absolutely perfectly clean factory grease off - and she confirmed that it is super concentrated stuff and 100ml will absolutely cover it, no problems. So 100ml - soak 15 mins, agitate, decant out for proper disposal, boiling water rinse until ufo clean coming off goes from white to clear, dry - perfecto. In your case UFO clean will definitely be the cheaper option. if 100ml does not submerge chain, do one side then flip to other side so that side is now submerged. Even though ufo clean is 100% enviro friendly , remember what you are removing is not, so still decant into a container for proper disposal.
So, when I’m on vacation and run into a rainy ride on a immersion waxed chain, what do I do? So far I have just run the chain through a dry rag and topped it up with SS lube? Do I need to bring a slow cooker on vacation?
No not at all, i need to update / improve the info on this somewhere. Doing what you are doing on vacation is perfect. Lubricants like ss drip, ufo drip, tru tension tungsten all weather etc are 100% compatible with immersive waxing, so use one of those and then re wax when back home (if been wet you may want to do a few boiling water flush cleans & dry to remove some contamination that wet riding has brought into chain and been pressed into wax so that less is imported into your wax pot). So on vacation it is basically the same as using any other lubricant, you are just using an immersive wax compatible lubricant to save a full reset when get back home before recommencing waxing.
As an engineer and life long cyclist, I love these detailed discussions. However, as a senior citizen with a low FTP, I wonder why there has been no discussion of the impact of power on chain/cassette wear. For example, I tool around at 150 watts and have noticed a large increase in life of my drive train as compared to when I was younger and racing/training harder. What about guys who can ride for hours at 350 watts as compared to 150 - drive train wear accelerates?
Hi there! Yes that is a very good point, it is something that comes up time to time and i may cover this in a future vid mostly aimed at e-bike riders as it becomes very important to understand then. But yes absolutely, there is very direct link between power and both lubricant treatment lifespan as well drivetrain component lifespan. Ie i tend to be right on the average of around 15,000km to 0.5% for a ybn chain on msw re waxing by 250 to 300km. My 51kg wife despite having very impressive power to weight, her last chain i replaced at just under 0.5 after 23,000km, and that was a dura ace which has about 50% less wear lifespan vs ybn. The key with high power cyclists - if i use immersive waxing as an example - is to understand that treatment lifespan is going to be shortened. And the aim of the game is to try to have all parts of chain sliding under load on a solid super slippery coating of wax, we want to leave the chain metal out the equation as much as possible. So always erring on re-waxing early - one can still achieve same circa 15,000km lifespans as the average - push even a bit - and this can drop to 8000 to 10,000km. Over the years of local athlete tracking on teams ZFC part sponsors - high mileage avid racers who for instance run two training chains on rotation - one for mon to fri, one for weekend, so even though doing 400 to 500km a week, the treatments arent being pushed past 250km ish, and so each chain still lasting 10,000 to 15,000 - they are getting 20,000 to 30,000km to get training chains to 0.5%. Previous to this method in 30,000km that would have been around 6 chains and 3 to 6 cassettes and a set of rings. More recreational riders have much more leeway overall re treatment lifespans and drivetrain wear - so as long as on a good lubricant, reasonable maintenance for that lubricant - they should enjoy very long lifespans. High power riders on meh or poor performance - holy batman that is expensive running - chains can be ripped past recommended replacement mark in as low as 1500km!! And then they are just eating into cassette and rings. E-mtb riders especially - high power, out in the dust - running wet lube or pushing wax drip on lube treatment too far all the time - it is murder on components. if one might get 4 to 6hrs effective lifespan for a wax drip on lubricant or wax coating on an analogue bike, it is going to be half that or less on an e-mtb. And allowing abrasive dust to build in lubricant under such loads ... $$$$$. It is generally non linear as well - there is not concrete data to give definitive number, but - most definitely someone who rides a lot at 350w is going to have more than double the wear rate than one who averages 175w. It is an interesting area and one i will like to highlight in future - mostly to try to ensure higher power riders know they are at much greater risk of much more expense if some key lubricant takeaways are not heeded - such as a) ensuring on a top lubricant b) understand treatment lifespan will be shorter c) do not push treatment lifespans d) do not allow abrasive contamination to build. Lower power riders enjoy a lot more leeway on all fronts
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for the detail reply. I can also concur with your advice not to soak chains for too long or use Simple Green. I did both simultaneously (20 yrs ago) and I snapped 2 new chains within a week of putting each one on. Only much later (years) did I realize the mistake I made.
I've been immersive waxing my MTB chain with Silca Secret Chain Blend for the last few weeks and everything Adam says about it on this channel is 100% true. It's amazing. However, right now, my local trial conditions are such that I'm going through mud and water crossings quite a bit so I need to do a boiling water rinse after every ride. I've been using an entire kettle of boiling water and it doesn't even come close to removing all the wax. I don't know if that's the intension of the process or to just have it remove the outer layer of wax and the contamination with it, but it seems like it would take a few gallons of boiling water to remove it all. Adam, any guidance here would be very welcome. Thanks for the great content and work!
Hey Cat - yes absolutely a the boiling water flush rinses will never do a perfect clean, it is just to remove the bulk of contaminated wax. You can tell if it is working by the fact that after a couple of baths when drying the chain, it will feel silky smooth. Try that with a wet lube chain after its first solvent bath or two post mud ride - you can just feel all the grit crunching away inside chain. So post muddy mtb or cx rides, the boiling water flush rinses are great simply to reduce the amount of contamination brought into wax pot - however , if it is time consuming due to how often riding in such conditions, got 1hr 39mins in the epic wax faq vid to see two pot system like a boss. That is what i do for my mtb & cx / gravel - if you are doing decent number of rides in wet conditions the two pot system like i have set up makes it super easy for the longer run, you save a lot of time not faffing with boiling water rinses, that really is meant for the odd wet ride vs constantly.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks so much Adam. That's exactly what I needed to know. I actually don't mind doing the boiling water flush. Of all the maintenance that bikes require, that and rewaxing is pretty simple. I like the idea of keeping the wax as clean as possible and making it last. Thanks for all the great content and advice!
This channel is amazing, what insights! thank you for your work! Have you had the oppertunity to test the Dynamic Speed Potion Wax? I's more expensive than the UFO drip and has been marketed to be developed for Jumbo Visma.. Well if they run it, it's probably fast, but I was wondering if the price is fair. Cheers!
Hi Robert! A great question indeed as i had been contacted awhile back by TJV to test dynamic speed potion. It has been a bit delayed as all test machines have been booked out solid, but i am close to starting the test, and it is going to be a public open test not a paid private test so i will be able to update data asap as the test is conducted. Without testing it is hard to say - the top / fast wax lubricant market is really really crowded. And we already have a bunch of top wax drip lubricants tested that have returned some very impressive results, so it will have a big challenge to try to really show up the likes of UFO drip, Silca ss drip, effetto mariposa flower power wax etc. Assuming it tests well - let us say at least competitive with the above, then no i do not think the price to be too high at all. So many bicycle lubricants on market (mostly in wet lubricant space which is the biggest space) are just re bottled and re brand X lubricant from X manufacturer for X industry. This makes them very cheap and so easy to sell at a low price with good margin. when mfg invest in making a genuinely great product for a bicycle chain, all that development cost, human resource capital cost, testing (field, tribology), getting volume production up and running - the base wax blend and especially friction modifier additives can be quite expensive, and then one needs to budget for marketing costs to try to get at least some penetration in a super competitive and crowded space where you have juggernauts like Muc-Off spending huge $$ on marketing - somehow manufacturers need to sell enough bottles at fair margin to cover all these costs to bring to market. If it is a high performing product that is genuinely low friction and very low wear, then the cost of the lubricant really doesnt matter much - it will be the very minor component in your cost to run over 10,000km of cycling. The dominant cost is your component wear rates. Cheaper lubricants if they deliver even average wear rates quickly work out to be a false economy vs a more expensive lubricant that delivers half or one quarter the wear rate. But we shall see - stay tuned to latest news (section on website or on FB / insta) - when i can get started on test and have some data to update i will, and the data will be updated on lubricant test page.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for your extensive reply! In The Netherlands, Dynamics' wax would cost about 35 euro for 100 ml, while I can get 180 ml UFO drip for 40 euro. Still is pricy, even though I agree those costs dissapear when you factor in the overall cost to run. Thanks again and I'm looking forward to the test. Great to hear TJV reached out. Says a lot!
Hi there, thanks for sharing, i have question that yet to be solved. I followed your instruction on waxing the chain and i cycle through 4 waxed chains in between so that when i wax, i will at least wax 3 of them together, but lately i have noticed a problem with the chain, that is after i have done around 350km on a chain, i took it off, kept it in a bag and leave it on one of the cabinet(no wet ridding), 10 days later when i am ready to wax the chain i found out the chain got a little bit rusted, i am wondering what is the cause of the problem?How to avoid them in the future? and what should i do with the waxed chain if the chain got a little bit rusted? Really looking forward to hear from you on this, thanks in advance, and thanks for your kind sharing.
Hey willy so sorry delay reply i wasnt getting notifications - plastic bag? chains are very susceptible to oxidation due to steel they are made of and there is still moisture in the air - a plastic bag will act as a rust catalyser - if you need to store for a little bit wrap them in a microfiber cloth vs bag and all should be groovy
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Howdy, thanks for the suggestion, four of the new chains are now got a little bit rust on the surface and roller, i like the idea of swapping them and wax them at once, but seeing something like that really frustrated. 1.I'm wondering do you have any suggestions on removing those rust or should i just leave them alone? 2.What's your suggestion on storing the chain waiting for the next round waxing? 3.I genuinely think i followed the exact procedures cleaning and waxing the chain, except because i wax them altogether at once, so every time i wax, i rinse them with hot water then clean them with degreaser, dry it with air blower then immediately put them on the pot, but i have noticed the chain just got rust no matter what, now 4 of them, i'm wondering what is problem here? And it's so weird i didn't see any of this kind of issue reported by others. Thanks for your help.
@@willyturing1803 One of my chains had some rust spots too. For me, I left the the damp chain to dry after a wet ride by accident. I took the chain off the bike but left it alone for next round of waxing about a week later. When i looked it had little rust crystals on the outer plates I could see on a few links. I am still using the chain for about a month now but only on training rides and being cautious. I think the key is to keep as much wax on the chain at all times. Remember it's bare metal under the wax, so if you are at ~350km your wax might be getting thin and air might start creating rust in thinner spots. I am ~4 months into waxing so far and love it. Way less maintenance work. I am rotating 3 chains around ~2-250km or (now) putting chain in wax pot immediately if wet/heavy contaminated ride. So far I haven't seen any other chains with rust spots forming. I was hunting this storage answer too but for me its a simple one. I store chain waiting to be rewaxed in the open depending on how much wax I think is left on the chain. If i've run the chain low and I've heard it squeaking, I know that squeak is probably bare metal on metal so I'll rewax that chain (and any others) the same day. Otherwise, I'll pop off the chain around ~2-250km assuming there's still enough wax protecting the chain from the air/rust. Then when I get down to my last chain I'll rewax them all. This is just what I picked up from all the info Adam has been providing. Cheers to Adam!
@@Warmanbd Hi Warmanbd, such a Warm reply. 🤣Sorry for the late chat, i am about 7 months into chain waxing, and rotating with 4 chains, i train roughly 12-14 hours per week, for me usually 2 hours training at a time covers about 70km, so i swap a chain every 4 sessions-ish. My approach is a lot like you, and when i take the "old chain" off, i now use the towel paper wrap it firmly then store them in a package, cause i feel like even for me who seldom do wet riding, the humidity and sweat also affects it, so i tend to dry it more before store them for about 2 weeks for next-round waxing. And like you, i'm enjoying the convenience of waxing chain rather than doing regular cleaning. But to be honest, i'm not sure if it's because i just use ordinary hot-wax and PTFE mix, i feel like the wax attached on the chain after waxing is gone really quickly, if you look closely to your newly-waxed chain before and after the ride, you will notice before the ride, there are fair amount of was attached on it, but if you take an inspection after 100km you will notice the wax originally attached to the surface of the roller is pretty much all gone, they look so "naked", at least that's my experience, not sure if that's resonate to yours. Anyway i was actually wondering about the commercial products before, but haven't made my mind yet, looking forward to hear your opinions about it. Cheers.
Thanks for a great video. It's there a recipe to make your own hot melt wax? I found that it's possible to bath the chain in a cheap medical paraffin. Seems to work well: I don't run more than 200 km and switch to another waxed chain.
Ha i am really not the guy to ask re DIY waxing. Having received approximately 4.6 billion email enquiries on circa 4.6billion DIY wax blends, my short advice is to a) read the DIY waxing section in waxing faq guide, b) if you have a decent base wax you can make a DIY wax lubricant that will beat many lubricants stocked on lbs shelves, but you will not at all match mspeedwax or hot melt, there is just so much genuine r&d into those blends and a huge amount of very accurate objective testing + field testing to substantiate performance / claims. DIY waxing overall gives immersive waxing a very bad wrap. Oh so many bike mechanics think waxing is crap because of what they see brought in by their customers. If you are happy with it, then feel secure in your own happiness with your blend. IF you want the best in the world and something that will be a good level or multiple better than your diy wax, then buy msw or hot melt.
Hi! Thanks for the great videos! Im currently using a e-MTB on sram NX ( steel 12 speed casette) any recommendations when riding close to sea ( salty humid conditions) will wax protect against rust? Or is surface rust still better than wet lube witch will catch a lot of sand and dust?
Hi Per - most sram cassettes are fairly rust resistant, but the platings on the teeth will wear over time (less time for e bike..) and so they will become more susceptible if left unprotected. Waxing in high rust risk riding is really a matter of re waxing often. Each re wax some excess wax is transferred to the cogs keeping them protected. Riders who really push treatment lifespans and so wax on chain is very thin for a good stretch before re waxing , the wax on the teeth will also be worn off and cassette unprotected. If re wax frequently, all is groovy. How frequently - it depends. Keep an eye on cassette, if you see a few spots of rust ever starting to appear, increase re waxing intervals if practical, if not, use silca ss drip or tru tension tungsten all weather as top up treatment in between re waxings. They are 100% immersive wax compatible so you do not need to clean chain before re waxing, just ensure they have an overnight set post application so you are not riding a wet lubricant which will absorb more contamination. Also, if chain is NX - that is an EXTREMELY FAST wearing chain, as is GX. X01 have incredible wear longevity, so make sure the nx doesnt rip past recommended replacement mark, even on the worlds best lubricants - they are just such a fast wearing chain, and get x01 level for next chain for about 100 times the lifespan of NX/ GX ! :)
Hi Adam, thanks for all the great info & videos you put out there for everyone. I bought a Trek powerfly 5 about a year ago, I’m 70 & thought it would be nice to a bit assistance when I need it. The bike came with SRAM nx eagle chain set, & after watching your videos decided to go for the Super Secret chain wax lube. I clean off factory grease using method you advise, on each replacement chain & am very pleased with results. I replace chain when it gets to 0.05. Is there a better chain than the nx eagle to get more miles. I’m getting about 800 miles, & top up up with the S.S.S. About every 250 miles. Any advice would be welcome, thanks again for all your hard work
Hi Tom! Yes definitely. NX and gx level chains are actually pretty terrible re wear lifespan. Step up to x01. Srams x01 and xx1 eagle chains are BY FAR the worlds most wear resistant chains, so it is absolutely worth many many times over stepping up to an x01 level chain. SS drip is brilliant offroad as super clean and contamination resistant, but outright treatment longevity is not huge. I would recommend most non e-bike riders to re lube with ss drip every approx 200km ish per treatment with ss drip, and definitely not push past that if a motor is involved. What you want is as much as possible, all load parts of chain sliding on a super slippery coating of wax and leaving the chain metal out of the equation. Run treatments too long and you will get some metal on metal contact. A tip also for offroad, before re lube ensure you spray some alcohol (doesnt need much at all) onto a microfiber cloth and wipe outside of chain. Dust sticks to chain from static elec from whizzing through the air same as dust sticks to your frame. You largely want to avoid dragging external dust into the chain where it will abrade on load surfaces causing a lot more wear damage vs if it is not brought inside chain on re lube. Maintaining periodically - every 1000 to 2000km depending on how dusty your rides are and how abrasive is your dust (soft soil dust is very different to crushed rock dust) - with ufo clean to reset contamination that will be starting to build in the lubricant inside the chain have fun, but get ready to be amazed at the longevity of an x01 chain on a genuine top lubricant!
Hi Adam, I called in at my local Trek dealership yesterday & mentioned to the guy I was thinking of changing to a SRAM x01 chain from my existing NX chain when needing replacement. He said x01 was too lightweight for ebike & should go for GX chain!. I’m still going to go with your advice to get X01 but confused as to why they suggest otherwise. Also would you advise going for x01 cassette when needing replacement or stick with nx cassette & x01 chain. My bike is Trek powerfly 5 ebike. Thanks again for your advice & hard work putting all those great videos out
Hi Adam, once again thanks for the excellent advice & videos you put out there for everyone. I called in at my local Trek dealer & mentioned I was going to replace the nx eagle chain with a xo1 chain after reading your great advice. He told me the xo1 was too lightweight & go for gx chain!. I will still go with your advice for xo1, just can’t understand why he would recommend gx chain. My bike is Trek powerfly 5, I’m 70 & need some assistance sometimes!. But always try to keep on eco least assist, always ride in the dry, keep chain topped up with silva ss drip when needed. Also I try to always change gear under no stress. Your advice is always welcome
@@tomhughes7954 wow that is a new one. I would ask him to provide chain tensile strength figures for GX vs xo1 - i absolutely guarantee he cannnot provide you that! Overall the last thing you want is a GX chain, offroad, and high power from a wear rate perspective. They are super fast wearing as it is, and more so under higher loads of course. There is ZERO evidence of any tensile strength differences across any chain brands in particular model, i,e 105 to dura ace in shimano, apex to red in sram, Nx to xx1 etc etc - typically weight is saved with hollow pins only, rest is same except for level of treatments or quality of steel to help for speed and wear resistance. Not tensile strength. Eagle chains are a bit interesting. This is anecdotal, but they are the most "snappy" chains of any chains we sell. The xx1 tensile strength tested the highest of any chain tested so far by nearly 2000n, which is huge, but this is a straight line test. I have seen eagle chain snap doing about 50w as someone tested saddle height in car park. It appears that eagle chains riveting is possibly not as super well executed on every pin as some other brands. It only takes one poor rivet, and the chain will fail under load on chain line angles. As such eagle chains are a little interesting for e-bike use. If it doesnt snap, then x01 / xx1 are BY FAR the best chain due to worlds greatest by miles wear resistance. if one is snapping them, then putting a shimano xt / xtr 12 chain on as they are e-bike rated - never seen fail yet - can be a great way to go, but this does require shimano 12spd chain ring and pulleys (99% of time runs perfect on eagle cassettes - MAY be an issue of inner plate link rub in 50t but it seems to be fairly rare - just a risk to be aware of).
Sorry for the really stupid question but I'm so tired of all the searching and review reading and listening to youtube video all contradicting on different lubes. After watching some of your videos, I'm convinced you know what you're talking about. So my question is, what are the top 5 (or 3) drip wax lubes out there that will not break the bank. I typically always ride in dry conditions but occasionally get caught in the rain. Wet lubes just makes such a mess of my drivechain. Thanks for all the work you put into these videos. Any advice would be appreciated. Also, I typically ride on road and occasionally do some gravel.
Hi Scott! Firstly thankyou for the feedback that is most lovely of you - if you have already seen a bunch of vids and been confused by the terrible information, that is exactly the situation i am trying to help resolve with actual robust and independent information from the worlds most exhaustive testing. Secondly, absolutely not a silly question - i do need to get to making a lubricant choice matrix to try to help guide decisions - tis on my to do list. You have two top option paths for you - either option will be brilliant for your drivetrain re outstanding day in day out low friction and wear, just a couple of key differences between them which may sway your choice. Silca SS drip or Ceramic Speed UFO drip - both super low friction and wear, and zero initial penetration issues - which is very important if you need to properly clean chain post wet ride. Silca ss drip is very clean, but has a bit lesser lifespan before starting to sound and feel dry, so re application is relatively frequent (say circa 200km road and 100 to 150km gravel depending on dust). UFO drip is a much heavier application, and will remain still very clean IF you ensure you wipe excess after application - but it is a little bit more faff to wipe all the excess - so you get a bit longer per treatment of silky smoothness before feeling and sounding dry, but at cost of a couple extra mins wiping excess on re application. Both UFO drip and SS drip are very easily reset post a wet ride with boiling water flush rinses as the majority of the contaminated lubricant will melt off. A perfect clean can be done by using boiling water rinses, dry (hair dryer), UFO clean bath, rinse with boiling water until water goes from white to clear - dry - perfect. Option 2 - Effetto Mariposa Flower Power Wax - this is newly tested product by ZFC - and it has set a new record lowest wear rate for a drip lubricant across the brutal main test protocol. It is extremely smooth feel to ride and for a long time per treatment - it is a long lasting lubricant ( i will be replacing Smoove with this product). It has no penetration issues (unlike wax lubricants like squirt / smoove / grax etc). From a drivetrain lubrication perspective, it is perfect. The offset is that it is not as clean over time as something like SS drip / UFO drip - the lubricant does go black and feels a bit oily to touch. You can keep looking cleaner by wiping with microfiber cloth with a bit of alcohol spray on it post every ride, but it will never be as clean as the super refined paraffin base lubricants like ss drip / ufo drip. So you have decently longer treatment lifespan, and it will still be cleaner than a lot of wet lubricants, but it is going to be a blacker drivetrain vs SS drip / UFO drip. And not being a paraffin base wax, you will not melt off the majority to be able to do a great contamination reset post wet ride with just boiling water. You need a solvent that works on waxes such as UFO clean or effetto's own Alpine cleaner - so depending how often you ride in the wet - this may sway things one way or another. Me personally - if i wasnt waxing - as much as i love the effetto product for its amazing low wear performance and ride feel and treatment longevity, it is a brilliant product - i love a super clean drivetrain and one that stays super clean with minimal effort - so for me it would be Silca SS drip - i find it very easy to just apply in 10 secs, work in for 10 secs ish, wipe excess with microfiber cloth for 10 secs, allow overnight set - and yeehaa. For my riding this would need to be done every 2nd or 3rd ride - but its just 30 to 40 secs of actual work to have an always clean, super low friction drivetrain. For me that is worth that time vs having double the treatment lifespan of say effetto, but at the cost of a blacker drivetrain. A bottle of ss drip is not cheap - but - if you have a look at the cost to run modelling on lubricant test page - you can see that over 10,000km - the cost of the lubricant is the very minor cost component - parts wear of chain, cassette and chain rings is by far the dominant cost to run factors for ones riding - a genuine top lubricant will pay for itself many times over in short order by reducing wear rates by many times vs average to poor lubricant choice options. Hope that helps!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you so much for the wealth of information here. It is very helpful in making my decision. Before my initial question, I had already purchased a bottle of Smoove but have not tried it yet. I just got frustrated with trying everything from dry and lasting 30 miles to wet and looking like tar after 30 miles. You mentioned that you will be replacing Smoove on your list with Flower Power Wax. Does this mean that you still feel Smoove is a decent option?, at least until I use up the bottle? I'll likely switch over to UFO drip if not full on hot melt waxing after the Smoove is gone. I appreciate you!
Hi Adam Thanks for all the information and hard work you are doing.! Seems this topic got me strong, i find myself thinking on it a lot for few years now. Have tried a lot of stuff. And been enjoying exploring it. I have to say, That something bother me with all the so called dry lubricants, wax, teflon and all the other dry lubes. Seems to me that the power of the pedaling, i mean the watts that rider puts on the pedals, make a lot of difference. Seems to me that in real life, the chains where i have used dry lubes on it, ended their life very fast, where i put wet lubes and kept chain clean got longer life. You have mentioned this issue of real life watts, all along the way, but i suspect that the results in real life are even more dramatic. Also the longevity with dry lubes including wax seems to work very nice up to 50-70 km but after that shifting is getting harder. Seems that the dry/wax layer lubes dont stand in front of high power pedaling and long rides. Im trying now the new generation lubes which are using the tribology method, like Revolube, Synergetic and Tru-Tension Tungsten Wet , and the results are that i feel that i get constant lubrication no matter what power i put and the shifting is smooth for 150 km, in opposite to wax/dry film lubes. Well, its not empirical as your testing but still i can "feel" it when riding. So maybe your longevity test + some new watt test, can help us To understand better what lube willbe the right one for us. Second thing, The first 1000 km in your test which translate to dry road riding, i find hard to give me the exact information that i need, because i find my chain has some sand and dust in it even riding dry road conditions. So Maybe better you put some quantity of sand/dust to mimic real world riding. Again, i thank you for your interesting work, personally im thrilled from it and find my self dreaming on chains and lubes... Hahah :) By the way it will be very interesting to see results about the cleaning/lubing lubes like Lillylube, and of course the mythical Prolink, where every time using it, one should saturate chain and clean it till the cloth has no more oil marks on it. Interesting if that method works. With lot of respect, Oz from the Holy Land
Hi there Oz - thanks for taking the time to put in some great thoughts and feedback. It sounds overall like your previous lubricants may have been the more traditional "dry" lubricants - finish line dry, muc-off c3 dry or products similar to those, and yes they are terrible, they have so little actual lubrication and are mostly carrier - so very short lifespan and very high wear rates. With wax lubricants - there is huge variance - but unless on e-bike - any of the top wax lubricants tested should give much longer lifespan than 50 to 70km. And it isnt normal for shifting to get harder when a lifespan is getting a bit done, and the friction on lateral shifting load is tiny compared the main load from pedalling. What will be normal is for the chain to sound and feel noticeably dry, often with a "zzzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz" noise / feel on each pedal stroke - but shifting wont be impacted. If you are getting shifting impacted, the only cause i can think for that is that you are really wax gunking up the drivetrain, either with a gunky wax lube choice, or way over lubricating leading to big wax build up. As the extra lubricity from a fresh treatment is wearing off, the tacky gunky build up that is really trying to gum up shifting will start to re present itself. My testing cannot simulate anyone's actual riding as such, so i cant try to emulate "dry road riding" for X cyclist. You may be cycling in a more dusty / sandy area than many others. Even in my city of Adelaide, there is a huge difference between one who lives in the hills and cycles in the hills, and one who lives just 20km west and often cycles along the roads that parallel the beach - there is a great loop from one beach front suburb of glenelg to outer harber and back - a 45km loop of roads that have a lot of sand on them from wind blowing sand off the beach, and so wet lubricant users can suffer abrasive contamination absorption similar to a gravel or mtb rider in some places. Yet they are just riding in dry road conditions. A few km's inland, it will be not as bad, but likely still worse than many other non coastal cities dry road etc etc. There is just so much variance. The key for the test is that it simply provides a control benchmark. If one is riding in very low contamination conditions - then you can compare the wear rates from block 1. If one is riding in higher dust contamination environments - then the results from dry contamination block 2 will be more relevant. Dont expect to get the same wear rates as the test - the test is just the test, and it isnt your riding. But you can expect one lubricant choice vs another lubricant choice to deliver a similar comparative wear rate to each other in your riding in such conditions as shown in the test block. Ie if lubricant A has half the wear rate of lubricant B, then you can expect lubricant A to significantly out perform lubricant B for you as well in your riding in such conditions. Pro link was already de bunked by Friction Facts - it was 50th out of 55 lubricants tested - so really bad - and the claims of "conditioning the chain metal" over time - that is a completely flawed approach - it takes friction to abrade peaks of metal surface, and it is a wet lubricant, so contamination will be an issue, scuffing the surface creating new peaks. This approach just obviously cannot and does not work, and re testing post X kms for prolink definitely showed no improvement. I am not bothering my resources testing such a product any more than i need to jump off a building to check if gravity is present in that area. I would love to test many other lubricants over time, just resources - each test takes significant time and $$ resources to conduct (mostly time is the issue) and zfc is just so heavily booked with testing for mfg these days as they really have no other credible robust test facility to get independent verification of their products performance, so it has been pretty hard to find a spot to test lubricant of own volition / curiosity at the moment, but where i can i will be trying to sneak in a test of my own - will be doing first aerosol lubricant test soon of boeshield T9 - that has been requested a lot, and not having tested an aerosol lubricant i have wanted to get data on one. I think it will be terrible, as aerosol is just a terrible way to go for a bicycle chain (it has to be very thin, so treatment lifespan i think will be an issue - i may be wrong and maybe it is great by way of the pressure spray does better cleaning per application vs drip, however aerosol is also extremely wasteful vs drip so lubricant cost per 10.,000km will be very high. anyway we shall see). Stay tuned to latest news to keep up to date with new tests, new recommended products from testing etc. I think you will really enjoy rex black diamond, or if want to try a wax again, effetto mariposa flower power wax lubricant has just set a new record low wear rate across main test for a drip lubricant - and is impressively long lasting per treatment. welcome to the land of low friction :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Hi Adam! So nice to read your well explained answer to me!! And spend your precious time for me! But i guess we are all "friction fanatics" :) Well, Josh from Silca did a pin test and was very surprised to see thar prolink progold got 3mm scuff while lot of others with faster velo friction results, made bigger scuff. Adam Sir, what about the lube resistance to power? Can you check it? I mean,is it possible that Wax lubes have lower lubricity / anti friction ability then wet lubes? With Revolube something very interesting is happening, i have to tell you- without any personal interest of course- when you "hammer" on the pedals seems the chain disappear or become elastic. I dont know how to describe this feeling but i suspect this comes from the tribology phenomena. Well Rex black seems the best drip lube,almost boring (🤭) from your test. Im ok with revo.,syner. and tru-tens. tung. Seems they are smooth, long run and also give an excuse to wipe the chain every day- every one needs some therapy 😆. Dear Adam thanks again and will watch for news in your website. Oz
Is there any lube that stays on after a ride in the wet? I am looking for a lube that allows me to simply wipe the chain down with a cloth after a ride in the wet and leave it at that.
Hi Ruud, yes a number of wet lubricants do. I would avoid at this stage untested / proven lubes like RNR extreme etc as i just dont know how abrasive they get, top wet choice at the moment is synergetic, it really is not washed off easily, is very low friction, and resists contamination better than other wet lubricants tested to date. A bottle is expensive but overall you can expect total cost to run to be a lot cheaper as a) an application amount is VERY small - you would go through multiple bottles of most other lubricants for one bottle of synergetic and b) lower wear = big cost savings. If you can - try to do some level of reset every 1000km tops - even just periodically pumping a bit of UFO clean or degreaser spray through to flush out some contamination that will help a lot re stopping the amount of contamination just continuing to build and get more and more abrasive - even just a couple mins on maintenance here and there if riding in harsh conditions can make a big difference for your drivetrain longevity
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks so much for the elaborate advise! I was also looking into Revolubes and the Rex Black Diamond Chain Lube. I am not sure to what extent you were able to test to what degree those lubes are able to resist rain, but i would love to know your thoughts on the rain resistance of those lubes compared to Synergetic?
Hey tom, if it is cleaning factory grease off, and i think you are on sram chains - which are a pita for initial clean due to their factory glue, you are really looking at disposing responsibly the first 3 baths of turps, keep the final 2 for initial baths next chain. methylates spirit the 2nd bath is fine to be first bath next chain.
Hi Adam. I follow your channel along with Jason Smith's and some others for some time now. I also run tests of my own but not as comprehensive as yours and of course I don't have as much accumulated data as you do. I would like to ask a few questions to show my audience. How about I do an interview with you talking about how we went from stealing cooking oil (MOST of us were kids) to the latest releases of bicycle chain lubricants to reasons for using dry lubricants. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. It may only be 5-10 minutes and I can send questions in advance. I wish it was something like a chat.. And of course, (although I do speak English) we speak Portuguese in Brazil so I would have to use subtitles for my audience. (and you would have to deal with my american accent) What do you say?
Hey mario, ah it is always honour to be invited to chat on this little are of focus, i can certainly have a crack and trying to help with any info - send q's to info@zerofrictioncycling.com.au, let me know also a bit about your testing - from start to where your at now that would be very interesting, and we can lock in a time for a chat. I will apologise in advance for the likely amount of subtitles you may need since i have trouble giving short answers ;)
BUT, if I arrive at work in rain, I don’t have a chance to pop the chain into s wax pot at my working place, right? So rust will be a topic here, isn’t it? Best
No, typically chain wont oxidise over a work day. If worried, just apply a very light coating of ss drip or tru tension tungsten all weather (immersive wax compatible lubricants) to tide over until next re wax. As the re wax re sets contamination, there is just no easier or more cost effective (and solvent free) way to keep a chain very low friction when constantly riding in harsh conditions. ANy other method to remotely match immersive waxing will a) fall way short b) cost a lot more in both time and cleaning product.
So you think that it is actually OK to immerse my chain in SQUIRT lube ? been thinking about that for a while . Once its diped into "squirt" you let the excess fall and wipe it with a clean rag and good to go ? And how good is it going to be compared to hot wax melt like silca or MSW ? thanks
For a first application post proper chain clean, absolutely. Squirt / Smoove / Grax - all of those it should be part of their instructions - they all very clearly have significant penetration issues. This is why ab graphen went to market advising you MUST immersive apply first application - they should advise too, i believe they do not as it scares off consumers much more vs saying just apply and all is grand. Yes you do want to thoroughly remove excess or you will soon have a lot of build up which is undesirable. It will not match waxing but it is at least a solid lubricant. Testing for immersive application has wear at 4.5% for clean block 1 vs 19.1% when applied as best as one can via drip on application post chain clean. It will always higher wear in all blocks vs immersive waxing and the top tested wax lubricants like ss drip and ufo drip, but it is at least a decent lubricant choice. If one only rides in dry, it is overall a good option, it is really if one rides a bit in wet that this is not best choice as unless you remove the contamination that water has trucked into chain and been pressed into and now land locked in the lubricant - it isnt going anywhere - so your next rides in the sun will be high friction, high wear. Squirt is a much tougher clean than others mentioned, and then the faffing to negate penetration issues that the others mentioned do not have - so if you ride a lot in the wet, there are much lower friction and wear (and much easier to maintain) choices.
oooh theres a few other immersive waxes out there - it would be nice to try another one or two but a) im pretty much booked out with testing for rest of 2022, b) i have some higher priority tests to do when i can like an aerosol lubricant test (boeshield t9), very long lasting wet lubricants in wet conditions etc - having already found two great immersive waxes - unless the mfg is booking with me to test, im not sure when i will get a spot to curiosity test another immersive wax, and i would have to have a look at a bunch of them out there to see which one really should be tested.
hey roborovski, the ybn sla range (not h11). Can be hard to get in some parts of the world. But they are fast, have circa 50% longer wear life vs DA, and their low friction coating gets along very well with wax's so treatment lifespans stay silky smooth for longer before starting to sound & feel dry
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Is the ybn sla 11 speed a good chain for eMTB? My eMTB has a KMC e11S EPT chain on it, is that okay to wax (after following all of your instructions of course)? I recall from reading your website at length that the KMC chain has some kind of coating or surface process that causes problems for wax adherence?
@@retromodernart4426 ah for e-mtb not so much - the ybn sla is not e-bike rated. The kmc is super fast wearing - for giving you greater pin riveting strength they basically then dont bother with wear resistance treatments. Best chain for ebikes is going to be shimano ultegra (or dura ace)- only medium re wear life but thats a lot more than kmc, and they are e-bike rated. wax adherence a lot better than kmc's tested, not as good as ybn, but it is best to ensure run an e-bike rate chain on e-bike. it is really unlikely but sometimes if a chain snaps at the wrong moment in the wrong way and it wraps in rear wheel spokes, you can just do some carnage ripping off mech, badly damaging wheel, cracking chain stay, and not staying upright. Very rare - but rare things happen. even just a benign chain snap can be annoying if no chain breaker and long way from home, and ultegra / DA still a good chain indeed - i would go that for 11spd.
Has anyone had any experience passing the dirty wax through a super fine mesh filter to Remove contaminants every now and again? Thinking about doing this to see if it will Increase the lifespan of the immersion wax.
Hey M-sparx! - Typically this doesnt go very well. The wax will cool and quickly clog the filter. Some pour into a paper cup and cut bottom half cm off, but you also remove a lot of the friction modifier as that settles to bottom as well. Best way if want to try is to swish well so friction modifiers well distributed, contamination will settle faster than most of the modifiers. Use a bbq tray and press down in the middle to make it a cone shape. Decant into cone , allow to set, and just cut a half cm tip off. Filter method will fail.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 just for a bit of fun I might muck around with some contaminated wax when the time comes to dispose it. Knowing the nominal micron size of the friction modifiers compared to road grime would be interesting. Naturally road grime will vary in size and density. Having access to various metal mesh makes heat retention easier compared to say a coffee filter or cloth arrangement, can flow it through with a bit of help from a hair dryer among other things. I suspect it reaches a point where some of the contaminants reach a similar particle size to the friction modifiers and suspend within the mixture just as easily and therefore make it deeper into the chains. It makes me think what would Nile red do 😂
I am of the opinion that you definitely should! There are as many answers re what to use as there are people asking it. Avoid crap drip lubes - many claim to be perfect for cables as well as your chain, many will be just as shite for your cables as they are for your chain. Dont wax them, waxing is brilliant on chains, not so much on cables and terrible for bearings. Personally i use a light freehub grease (NFS grease or extralite alugrease. They are super slipperly, light (you dont want a heavy grease) - but freehub greases to not go tacky over time with exposure to air (or the pawls would stick and that is bad) - that is a specific design property for freehub grease and one that is very desirable for cable lubrication.
Was a 5 years home-mechanic and 2 years of LBS mechanic, I did experiment on a lot of stuffs back at home and at the shop. I have tried grease, chain lube, and wax immersion on cables (brakes+gears). Theoretically speaking, hot wax immersion should work wonderfully on inner cables. However, it is actually a total nightmare as it will gunk up the cable housing, cable insertion become a bit troublesome. Tried the wet lube (a popular brand from UK) method on inner cables. The lube that were tested are e-bike all weather lube (aerosol), ceramic wet lube (pink), and regular wet lube (blue). For the first 2-3 weeks, the cables were silky smooth. After that, they will feel 'sticky'. On closer inspection, those lube had turn tacky, bit like semi-dried glue. Probably due to the solvent have evaporated after being expose to air. As of now, Jagwire pro polished cables+VERY thin coating of Shimano special grease for cable (the white stuff) have work wonders for me. Even after more than a year, both brakes and gears feel smooth and responsive.
The quantity of solvent to clean a chain seems to me excessively large. I suspect one could use a lot less if the chain was agitated better (eg run over jockey wheels so that it each link is rotating against the next) , plus using a longer soak time. Has anyone done experiments on this?
Hey paul - are you meaning re new chain or existing chain? You dont need rotation of links when cleaning chain - the chain is not waterproof at all, solvent / degreaser will penetrate easily. With solvent - for a new chain - it is simply a matter of saturation. Ie with a ybn clean - first bath - it is heavily contaminated with grease - no matter how long i soak - after a certain time - (about 15 mins) - nothing further with happen, and there will still be some grease that slightly contaminates 2nd bath. with a sram chain - 1st bath the grease is heavily clouded. 2nd bath slightly less so, 3rd bath less so again, 4th bath less so again etc - it doesnt matter how long one soaks the initial baths, X amount of solvent can only absorb X amount of grease - one can do less baths by having greater volume of solvent per bath - the above is based on batches of 4 chains in the ultrasonics. For some lubricants (ie some wet lubricants ) - if one doesnt do a perfect clean things will still be ok. For wax lubricants / immersive wax - where we need to wax to bond to clean and clear chain metal - a very good clean needs to be done. On bike struggles a lot vs off bike - it is hard to get the volume of solvent & subsequent absorption through the chain on bike - the high concentrated UFO clean is really the way to go if one needs to do on bike. For existing chain one just has to keep going until what is coming out is not black or grey - and this can be litres - so for existing chains there is absolutely a cut off re what is viable- ie if one has done 1000km+ on an ultegra or 105 11spd chain - is it worth 4 litres of solvent through chain of that cost that may be 30 to 50% worn depending on what previously running. If it is a very wear durable and expensive xx1 chain or sram red chain - for sure it is still worth doing etc.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the long reply. I'm talking about either new or used - both seem excessive. I know that the solvent will enter a chain bearing without much trouble, but once it's filled, I suspect there will not be much movement due to surface tension - a large surface area of the bearing roller internals and sides. Therefore I wonder whether it's been proven that the multiple washes represents a pure 'dilution' process, or rather some flow- and/or diffusion-limited process, where you are still removing a more concentrated or undissolved deposit from within the chain. Just comparing new vs used for example, if the cleaning of both are claimed to be pure dilution, it should not take any more liquid to clean the used vs the new, because the dilutions should be very close to identical. Rather what is going on I think is that the used chain has a more resistant, oxidised, caked deposits that are more difficult to remove, and come off more slowly. And if this is true for a used chain, it raises the question of whether it's true for a new chain too (ie diffusion or flow limited, not pure dilution).
@@paulwary I dont think so, it would be handy if that was the case, but certainly have not observed that over a lot of cleaning over a lot of years. Ie there are times i run out of time and so the chains are left to soak overnight (new or used). I still have the same amount of cleaning the next day - it isnt magically ah wow that one was super black and now its really clear next bath. Its the same as if i followed normal process. As container method is agitated, or ultrasonic is ultrasonic - there is no surface tension holding things up.
Amazing content as usual! I was wondering if I do much much damage to the drivetrain when I use the chains that are in rotation with on roadie with a dedicated Dura Ace cassette on a trainer every now and again that is equipped with 105. The chains are religiously maintained and regularly waxed. Thanks!
Hey Sp! now should be any worry at all. Damage to drivetrain is really from running chains that are worn past the 0.5% wear mark - so that now the roller is not sliding neatly between teeth and pressing directly into tooth face as load is introduced, but instead hitting tip of tooth and sliding down the face. If your chains are not worn, then it will not be wearing very much at all your cassette or ring teeth. If there was an issue with the trainer cassette being too worn vs your chains, then you would experience chain jumping under load on that cassette.
Cheers. Great info. These long videos are great for ergo sessions indoors.
yes!!! more people saying they like long episodes, i luv episodes on so many things hahahaha! Im getting a lot of comments re my vids being too long.... i may not be the right channel for some ;)
Long videos are the way to go for those ones who prefer to dive deep into the topic! I absolutely love your complex approach!
PS @Shane thank you for all your work too! You both guys are doing so much for cycling! You are LEGENDS!
Love my MSW so good to have a clean drive train at the end of a 200 km Audax ride
Did my first immersive wax round a few weeks ago and was much easier than expected, did 3 chains one after the other. Drip lubes feel like more work to me with the painful cleaning process each time, even with the smoove I used before was a nightmare cleaning the jockey wheels. I wouldn't dream of adding any type of lube over my waxed chain or going back to drip lube again.
My big complaint with wax is how hard it is to get hold of the wax in my country, only option I could find was importing Secret wax through the amazon store at a premium. The cost of replacing my sram GX cassette after 1500km was the final straw for me to go with immersive wax.
Absolutely correct on all points made Ant!! I am not sure why wax is so hard to get hold of in a lot of places in europe, hopefully that will improve. However in the total cost to run drivetrain, especially when components are expensive, the cost of the lubricant is typically the very small component of the equation - especially if the one bag even though expensive is going to last circa 10,000km road / 5000km offroad. It is a big myth i am always trying to bust that immersive waxing is a big hassle. If anyone does basically any practical level of drivetrain maintenance with most drip lubricants, waxing is almost always on balance the easier option as there is just no cleaning needed 99% of the time. Thanks for taking the time to engage with good input for others to read
Hey Ant! yes cost of getting mspeedwax or hot melt can be a bit in some places - but, remember that over say 5000km of mtb or 10,000km road - in terms of total cost to run drivetrain, the lubricant cost is the very minor part, component wear rate is by far the dominant cost. So if a lubricant genuinely saves a lot of wear, which those products most definitely do, they pay for themselves many times over very quickly, even if it cost $100 a bag to get (and a bag lasts a long time).
It is most definitely worth, if you can, ensuring you go up from GX chain to x01 level. NX and GX chains have horrific longevity, and when the chains wear, they take your other components with it. Srams x01 / xx1 chains are the worlds hardest wearing, longest lasting chains BY MILES. And xo1 chain literally will have about 20x the wear lifespan of a GX chain - there is a frankly ridiculous gap between the two levels. GX chains sell a lot more, as most of the world isnt across this fact yet, and so GX chain production is prioritised, getting hold of an x01 / xx1 chain is getting really tough. I just tried to re order more from sram importer in aus, and the eta for next stock to me is APPROXIMATELY mid next year!!! (i only get x01 or xx1, never ever ever ever GX - just dont do it for the chain). An x01 chain on msw or hot melt, you will not wear out that chain before you buy a new bike and start over.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I've been running the PC-X1 chain with GX 10-42 cassette, as far as I know that chain is the tier below XX1, XX1 is impossible to get in stock so not a option. I agree the cost of wax is minor when compared to replacing components.
I live in the UK, most of my riding is in the wet 😂 having a specific section on wet riding was super useful. Thanks.
Thank you for such excellent independent information
Hi, i just bought a 3L ultrasonic cleaner with heating up to 80°C. Will put the chain in the hot water with wax pot along side. While wax heats, I can ultrasonic clean the chain alongside it. Then immerse in hot wax and ultrasonic coat the chain. Also great for cleaning chains. Cost me a 100 bucks. Thanks for all the advice.
Thanks for all your work testing this stuff. I know you often recommend the YBN chains with their SLA coating, but I was wondering if you had also done any testing on their S11 line of chains. If I can avoid it, I'd rather not get a chain with any kind of PTFE coating. I'm not so concerned about weight and watts saved, but if there's a significant durability penalty then I might reconsider. FWIW I'd be lubricating with Silca SCB.
Hey luke - no i havent had a chance to test that one - there are a bunch of chains i would like to longevity test but lubricant testing is just so flat out even with 3 machines going, i still have pretty long quote times for mfg's to test, and a bunch i need to test for general info. Chains with low friction coating do have a longer lifespan as that is the first line of defense against abrasive contamination wear - but the main defense is chromium platings on pin and overall quality of the steel used. One can still get excellent wear lifespan from more budget level chains if using a top lubricant option + maintenance (refer maintenance guide, instructions tab), or most especially if one is immersive waxing and re waxes frequently. If you rewax frequently chain metal just doenst come into play, everything is always sliding on a solid super slippery coating of wax. On the top waxes if you re wax every approx 300km - lifespan is very long. Every approx 200km - very very very long. Every 100km - you pretty much have a chain for life. Every 100km is not super practical, but between 100km to 200km is relatively easy if have two chains on rotation and can swap (one for mon to fri, one for weekend, or one each week depending on miles and conditions) and rewax both at once on rest day. PTFE ./ low friction coatings used are mostly inconsequential if there is always a polished solid wax coating that everything is sliding on instead.
Thanks for this information. I am a big time wax convert. Conditions here are always sandy/dusty but hard to get the brand name stuff. I now use A DIY paraffin with Teflon and then "top it off" with squirt to keep the time between full reapplication longer.
Hi Adam, First I want to thank you for all the effort you put into the testing and stuff.
I have a question: How can I be sure the chain is perfectly prepared for the Waxing? Is it possible that one bath UFO clean replaces 4-5 baths of Mineral turps?
Since mineral turps are exensive here, around 6€/Litre, I bought a bottle of UFO clean. It was my first chain cleaning. I only needed one bath of UFO clean and one bath of Isopropyl alcohol (new SRAM chain).
First I wanted to do a second UFO clean bath but the Isopropyl alcohol stayed completly clear and the chain was doing some metallic sounds wenn it was dry.
Hey maffin! It is hard to tell just by looking at it but if you follow the instructions for cleaning with turps / metho - you are safe as that has been well established and tested, not just by me really this is carrying over right from the early friction facts days of prepping chains perfectly for lubricant on test. With UFO clean, i have been slow to officially update instructions to use this as CS own instructions demonstrate spraying chain on bike, which i am not going to recommend except of those who just cannot for some reason remove chain. So i managed to get in contact recently with the lady at ceramic speed who created UFO clean to confirm exactly how much ufo clean is need to absolutely perfectly clean factory grease off - and she confirmed that it is super concentrated stuff and 100ml will absolutely cover it, no problems. So 100ml - soak 15 mins, agitate, decant out for proper disposal, boiling water rinse until ufo clean coming off goes from white to clear, dry - perfecto. In your case UFO clean will definitely be the cheaper option. if 100ml does not submerge chain, do one side then flip to other side so that side is now submerged. Even though ufo clean is 100% enviro friendly , remember what you are removing is not, so still decant into a container for proper disposal.
So, when I’m on vacation and run into a rainy ride on a immersion waxed chain, what do I do?
So far I have just run the chain through a dry rag and topped it up with SS lube? Do I need to bring a slow cooker on vacation?
No not at all, i need to update / improve the info on this somewhere. Doing what you are doing on vacation is perfect. Lubricants like ss drip, ufo drip, tru tension tungsten all weather etc are 100% compatible with immersive waxing, so use one of those and then re wax when back home (if been wet you may want to do a few boiling water flush cleans & dry to remove some contamination that wet riding has brought into chain and been pressed into wax so that less is imported into your wax pot). So on vacation it is basically the same as using any other lubricant, you are just using an immersive wax compatible lubricant to save a full reset when get back home before recommencing waxing.
As an engineer and life long cyclist, I love these detailed discussions.
However, as a senior citizen with a low FTP, I wonder why there has been no discussion of the impact of power on chain/cassette wear. For example, I tool around at 150 watts and have noticed a large increase in life of my drive train as compared to when I was younger and racing/training harder. What about guys who can ride for hours at 350 watts as compared to 150 - drive train wear accelerates?
Hi there! Yes that is a very good point, it is something that comes up time to time and i may cover this in a future vid mostly aimed at e-bike riders as it becomes very important to understand then. But yes absolutely, there is very direct link between power and both lubricant treatment lifespan as well drivetrain component lifespan. Ie i tend to be right on the average of around 15,000km to 0.5% for a ybn chain on msw re waxing by 250 to 300km. My 51kg wife despite having very impressive power to weight, her last chain i replaced at just under 0.5 after 23,000km, and that was a dura ace which has about 50% less wear lifespan vs ybn.
The key with high power cyclists - if i use immersive waxing as an example - is to understand that treatment lifespan is going to be shortened. And the aim of the game is to try to have all parts of chain sliding under load on a solid super slippery coating of wax, we want to leave the chain metal out the equation as much as possible. So always erring on re-waxing early - one can still achieve same circa 15,000km lifespans as the average - push even a bit - and this can drop to 8000 to 10,000km.
Over the years of local athlete tracking on teams ZFC part sponsors - high mileage avid racers who for instance run two training chains on rotation - one for mon to fri, one for weekend, so even though doing 400 to 500km a week, the treatments arent being pushed past 250km ish, and so each chain still lasting 10,000 to 15,000 - they are getting 20,000 to 30,000km to get training chains to 0.5%. Previous to this method in 30,000km that would have been around 6 chains and 3 to 6 cassettes and a set of rings.
More recreational riders have much more leeway overall re treatment lifespans and drivetrain wear - so as long as on a good lubricant, reasonable maintenance for that lubricant - they should enjoy very long lifespans. High power riders on meh or poor performance - holy batman that is expensive running - chains can be ripped past recommended replacement mark in as low as 1500km!! And then they are just eating into cassette and rings.
E-mtb riders especially - high power, out in the dust - running wet lube or pushing wax drip on lube treatment too far all the time - it is murder on components. if one might get 4 to 6hrs effective lifespan for a wax drip on lubricant or wax coating on an analogue bike, it is going to be half that or less on an e-mtb. And allowing abrasive dust to build in lubricant under such loads ... $$$$$.
It is generally non linear as well - there is not concrete data to give definitive number, but - most definitely someone who rides a lot at 350w is going to have more than double the wear rate than one who averages 175w.
It is an interesting area and one i will like to highlight in future - mostly to try to ensure higher power riders know they are at much greater risk of much more expense if some key lubricant takeaways are not heeded - such as a) ensuring on a top lubricant b) understand treatment lifespan will be shorter c) do not push treatment lifespans d) do not allow abrasive contamination to build. Lower power riders enjoy a lot more leeway on all fronts
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for the detail reply. I can also concur with your advice not to soak chains for too long or use Simple Green. I did both simultaneously (20 yrs ago) and I snapped 2 new chains within a week of putting each one on. Only much later (years) did I realize the mistake I made.
I've been immersive waxing my MTB chain with Silca Secret Chain Blend for the last few weeks and everything Adam says about it on this channel is 100% true. It's amazing. However, right now, my local trial conditions are such that I'm going through mud and water crossings quite a bit so I need to do a boiling water rinse after every ride. I've been using an entire kettle of boiling water and it doesn't even come close to removing all the wax. I don't know if that's the intension of the process or to just have it remove the outer layer of wax and the contamination with it, but it seems like it would take a few gallons of boiling water to remove it all. Adam, any guidance here would be very welcome. Thanks for the great content and work!
Hey Cat - yes absolutely a the boiling water flush rinses will never do a perfect clean, it is just to remove the bulk of contaminated wax. You can tell if it is working by the fact that after a couple of baths when drying the chain, it will feel silky smooth. Try that with a wet lube chain after its first solvent bath or two post mud ride - you can just feel all the grit crunching away inside chain. So post muddy mtb or cx rides, the boiling water flush rinses are great simply to reduce the amount of contamination brought into wax pot - however , if it is time consuming due to how often riding in such conditions, got 1hr 39mins in the epic wax faq vid to see two pot system like a boss. That is what i do for my mtb & cx / gravel - if you are doing decent number of rides in wet conditions the two pot system like i have set up makes it super easy for the longer run, you save a lot of time not faffing with boiling water rinses, that really is meant for the odd wet ride vs constantly.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks so much Adam. That's exactly what I needed to know. I actually don't mind doing the boiling water flush. Of all the maintenance that bikes require, that and rewaxing is pretty simple. I like the idea of keeping the wax as clean as possible and making it last. Thanks for all the great content and advice!
This channel is amazing, what insights! thank you for your work! Have you had the oppertunity to test the Dynamic Speed Potion Wax? I's more expensive than the UFO drip and has been marketed to be developed for Jumbo Visma.. Well if they run it, it's probably fast, but I was wondering if the price is fair. Cheers!
Hi Robert! A great question indeed as i had been contacted awhile back by TJV to test dynamic speed potion. It has been a bit delayed as all test machines have been booked out solid, but i am close to starting the test, and it is going to be a public open test not a paid private test so i will be able to update data asap as the test is conducted.
Without testing it is hard to say - the top / fast wax lubricant market is really really crowded. And we already have a bunch of top wax drip lubricants tested that have returned some very impressive results, so it will have a big challenge to try to really show up the likes of UFO drip, Silca ss drip, effetto mariposa flower power wax etc.
Assuming it tests well - let us say at least competitive with the above, then no i do not think the price to be too high at all. So many bicycle lubricants on market (mostly in wet lubricant space which is the biggest space) are just re bottled and re brand X lubricant from X manufacturer for X industry. This makes them very cheap and so easy to sell at a low price with good margin.
when mfg invest in making a genuinely great product for a bicycle chain, all that development cost, human resource capital cost, testing (field, tribology), getting volume production up and running - the base wax blend and especially friction modifier additives can be quite expensive, and then one needs to budget for marketing costs to try to get at least some penetration in a super competitive and crowded space where you have juggernauts like Muc-Off spending huge $$ on marketing - somehow manufacturers need to sell enough bottles at fair margin to cover all these costs to bring to market.
If it is a high performing product that is genuinely low friction and very low wear, then the cost of the lubricant really doesnt matter much - it will be the very minor component in your cost to run over 10,000km of cycling. The dominant cost is your component wear rates. Cheaper lubricants if they deliver even average wear rates quickly work out to be a false economy vs a more expensive lubricant that delivers half or one quarter the wear rate.
But we shall see - stay tuned to latest news (section on website or on FB / insta) - when i can get started on test and have some data to update i will, and the data will be updated on lubricant test page.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for your extensive reply! In The Netherlands, Dynamics' wax would cost about 35 euro for 100 ml, while I can get 180 ml UFO drip for 40 euro. Still is pricy, even though I agree those costs dissapear when you factor in the overall cost to run. Thanks again and I'm looking forward to the test. Great to hear TJV reached out. Says a lot!
Hi there, thanks for sharing, i have question that yet to be solved. I followed your instruction on waxing the chain and i cycle through 4 waxed chains in between so that when i wax, i will at least wax 3 of them together, but lately i have noticed a problem with the chain, that is after i have done around 350km on a chain, i took it off, kept it in a bag and leave it on one of the cabinet(no wet ridding), 10 days later when i am ready to wax the chain i found out the chain got a little bit rusted, i am wondering what is the cause of the problem?How to avoid them in the future? and what should i do with the waxed chain if the chain got a little bit rusted?
Really looking forward to hear from you on this, thanks in advance, and thanks for your kind sharing.
Hey willy so sorry delay reply i wasnt getting notifications - plastic bag? chains are very susceptible to oxidation due to steel they are made of and there is still moisture in the air - a plastic bag will act as a rust catalyser - if you need to store for a little bit wrap them in a microfiber cloth vs bag and all should be groovy
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Howdy, thanks for the suggestion, four of the new chains are now got a little bit rust on the surface and roller, i like the idea of swapping them and wax them at once, but seeing something like that really frustrated.
1.I'm wondering do you have any suggestions on removing those rust or should i just leave them alone?
2.What's your suggestion on storing the chain waiting for the next round waxing?
3.I genuinely think i followed the exact procedures cleaning and waxing the chain, except because i wax them altogether at once, so every time i wax, i rinse them with hot water then clean them with degreaser, dry it with air blower then immediately put them on the pot, but i have noticed the chain just got rust no matter what, now 4 of them, i'm wondering what is problem here? And it's so weird i didn't see any of this kind of issue reported by others.
Thanks for your help.
@@willyturing1803 One of my chains had some rust spots too. For me, I left the the damp chain to dry after a wet ride by accident. I took the chain off the bike but left it alone for next round of waxing about a week later. When i looked it had little rust crystals on the outer plates I could see on a few links. I am still using the chain for about a month now but only on training rides and being cautious.
I think the key is to keep as much wax on the chain at all times. Remember it's bare metal under the wax, so if you are at ~350km your wax might be getting thin and air might start creating rust in thinner spots. I am ~4 months into waxing so far and love it. Way less maintenance work. I am rotating 3 chains around ~2-250km or (now) putting chain in wax pot immediately if wet/heavy contaminated ride. So far I haven't seen any other chains with rust spots forming.
I was hunting this storage answer too but for me its a simple one. I store chain waiting to be rewaxed in the open depending on how much wax I think is left on the chain. If i've run the chain low and I've heard it squeaking, I know that squeak is probably bare metal on metal so I'll rewax that chain (and any others) the same day. Otherwise, I'll pop off the chain around ~2-250km assuming there's still enough wax protecting the chain from the air/rust. Then when I get down to my last chain I'll rewax them all. This is just what I picked up from all the info Adam has been providing. Cheers to Adam!
@@Warmanbd Hi Warmanbd, such a Warm reply. 🤣Sorry for the late chat, i am about 7 months into chain waxing, and rotating with 4 chains, i train roughly 12-14 hours per week, for me usually 2 hours training at a time covers about 70km, so i swap a chain every 4 sessions-ish.
My approach is a lot like you, and when i take the "old chain" off, i now use the towel paper wrap it firmly then store them in a package, cause i feel like even for me who seldom do wet riding, the humidity and sweat also affects it, so i tend to dry it more before store them for about 2 weeks for next-round waxing.
And like you, i'm enjoying the convenience of waxing chain rather than doing regular cleaning.
But to be honest, i'm not sure if it's because i just use ordinary hot-wax and PTFE mix, i feel like the wax attached on the chain after waxing is gone really quickly, if you look closely to your newly-waxed chain before and after the ride, you will notice before the ride, there are fair amount of was attached on it, but if you take an inspection after 100km you will notice the wax originally attached to the surface of the roller is pretty much all gone, they look so "naked", at least that's my experience, not sure if that's resonate to yours.
Anyway i was actually wondering about the commercial products before, but haven't made my mind yet, looking forward to hear your opinions about it. Cheers.
Thanks for a great video. It's there a recipe to make your own hot melt wax? I found that it's possible to bath the chain in a cheap medical paraffin. Seems to work well: I don't run more than 200 km and switch to another waxed chain.
Ha i am really not the guy to ask re DIY waxing. Having received approximately 4.6 billion email enquiries on circa 4.6billion DIY wax blends, my short advice is to a) read the DIY waxing section in waxing faq guide, b) if you have a decent base wax you can make a DIY wax lubricant that will beat many lubricants stocked on lbs shelves, but you will not at all match mspeedwax or hot melt, there is just so much genuine r&d into those blends and a huge amount of very accurate objective testing + field testing to substantiate performance / claims. DIY waxing overall gives immersive waxing a very bad wrap. Oh so many bike mechanics think waxing is crap because of what they see brought in by their customers. If you are happy with it, then feel secure in your own happiness with your blend. IF you want the best in the world and something that will be a good level or multiple better than your diy wax, then buy msw or hot melt.
Hi! Thanks for the great videos! Im currently using a e-MTB on sram NX ( steel 12 speed casette) any recommendations when riding close to sea ( salty humid conditions) will wax protect against rust? Or is surface rust still better than wet lube witch will catch a lot of sand and dust?
Hi Per - most sram cassettes are fairly rust resistant, but the platings on the teeth will wear over time (less time for e bike..) and so they will become more susceptible if left unprotected. Waxing in high rust risk riding is really a matter of re waxing often. Each re wax some excess wax is transferred to the cogs keeping them protected. Riders who really push treatment lifespans and so wax on chain is very thin for a good stretch before re waxing , the wax on the teeth will also be worn off and cassette unprotected. If re wax frequently, all is groovy. How frequently - it depends. Keep an eye on cassette, if you see a few spots of rust ever starting to appear, increase re waxing intervals if practical, if not, use silca ss drip or tru tension tungsten all weather as top up treatment in between re waxings. They are 100% immersive wax compatible so you do not need to clean chain before re waxing, just ensure they have an overnight set post application so you are not riding a wet lubricant which will absorb more contamination. Also, if chain is NX - that is an EXTREMELY FAST wearing chain, as is GX. X01 have incredible wear longevity, so make sure the nx doesnt rip past recommended replacement mark, even on the worlds best lubricants - they are just such a fast wearing chain, and get x01 level for next chain for about 100 times the lifespan of NX/ GX ! :)
Hi Adam, thanks for all the great info & videos you put out there for everyone. I bought a Trek powerfly 5 about a year ago, I’m 70 & thought it would be nice to a bit assistance when I need it. The bike came with SRAM nx eagle chain set, & after watching your videos decided to go for the Super Secret chain wax lube. I clean off factory grease using method you advise, on each replacement chain & am very pleased with results. I replace chain when it gets to 0.05. Is there a better chain than the nx eagle to get more miles. I’m getting about 800 miles, & top up up with the S.S.S. About every 250 miles. Any advice would be welcome, thanks again for all your hard work
Hi Tom! Yes definitely. NX and gx level chains are actually pretty terrible re wear lifespan. Step up to x01. Srams x01 and xx1 eagle chains are BY FAR the worlds most wear resistant chains, so it is absolutely worth many many times over stepping up to an x01 level chain.
SS drip is brilliant offroad as super clean and contamination resistant, but outright treatment longevity is not huge. I would recommend most non e-bike riders to re lube with ss drip every approx 200km ish per treatment with ss drip, and definitely not push past that if a motor is involved. What you want is as much as possible, all load parts of chain sliding on a super slippery coating of wax and leaving the chain metal out of the equation. Run treatments too long and you will get some metal on metal contact.
A tip also for offroad, before re lube ensure you spray some alcohol (doesnt need much at all) onto a microfiber cloth and wipe outside of chain. Dust sticks to chain from static elec from whizzing through the air same as dust sticks to your frame. You largely want to avoid dragging external dust into the chain where it will abrade on load surfaces causing a lot more wear damage vs if it is not brought inside chain on re lube.
Maintaining periodically - every 1000 to 2000km depending on how dusty your rides are and how abrasive is your dust (soft soil dust is very different to crushed rock dust) - with ufo clean to reset contamination that will be starting to build in the lubricant inside the chain
have fun, but get ready to be amazed at the longevity of an x01 chain on a genuine top lubricant!
Hi Adam, I called in at my local Trek dealership yesterday & mentioned to the guy I was thinking of changing to a SRAM x01 chain from my existing NX chain when needing replacement. He said x01 was too lightweight for ebike & should go for GX chain!. I’m still going to go with your advice to get X01 but confused as to why they suggest otherwise. Also would you advise going for x01 cassette when needing replacement or stick with nx cassette & x01 chain. My bike is Trek powerfly 5 ebike.
Thanks again for your advice & hard work putting all those great videos out
Hi Adam, once again thanks for the excellent advice & videos you put out there for everyone. I called in at my local Trek dealer & mentioned I was going to replace the nx eagle chain with a xo1 chain after reading your great advice. He told me the xo1 was too lightweight & go for gx chain!. I will still go with your advice for xo1, just can’t understand why he would recommend gx chain. My bike is Trek powerfly 5, I’m 70 & need some assistance sometimes!. But always try to keep on eco least assist, always ride in the dry, keep chain topped up with silva ss drip when needed. Also I try to always change gear under no stress. Your advice is always welcome
@@tomhughes7954 wow that is a new one. I would ask him to provide chain tensile strength figures for GX vs xo1 - i absolutely guarantee he cannnot provide you that! Overall the last thing you want is a GX chain, offroad, and high power from a wear rate perspective. They are super fast wearing as it is, and more so under higher loads of course. There is ZERO evidence of any tensile strength differences across any chain brands in particular model, i,e 105 to dura ace in shimano, apex to red in sram, Nx to xx1 etc etc - typically weight is saved with hollow pins only, rest is same except for level of treatments or quality of steel to help for speed and wear resistance. Not tensile strength.
Eagle chains are a bit interesting. This is anecdotal, but they are the most "snappy" chains of any chains we sell. The xx1 tensile strength tested the highest of any chain tested so far by nearly 2000n, which is huge, but this is a straight line test. I have seen eagle chain snap doing about 50w as someone tested saddle height in car park. It appears that eagle chains riveting is possibly not as super well executed on every pin as some other brands. It only takes one poor rivet, and the chain will fail under load on chain line angles.
As such eagle chains are a little interesting for e-bike use. If it doesnt snap, then x01 / xx1 are BY FAR the best chain due to worlds greatest by miles wear resistance. if one is snapping them, then putting a shimano xt / xtr 12 chain on as they are e-bike rated - never seen fail yet - can be a great way to go, but this does require shimano 12spd chain ring and pulleys (99% of time runs perfect on eagle cassettes - MAY be an issue of inner plate link rub in 50t but it seems to be fairly rare - just a risk to be aware of).
Sorry for the really stupid question but I'm so tired of all the searching and review reading and listening to youtube video all contradicting on different lubes. After watching some of your videos, I'm convinced you know what you're talking about. So my question is, what are the top 5 (or 3) drip wax lubes out there that will not break the bank. I typically always ride in dry conditions but occasionally get caught in the rain. Wet lubes just makes such a mess of my drivechain. Thanks for all the work you put into these videos. Any advice would be appreciated. Also, I typically ride on road and occasionally do some gravel.
Hi Scott! Firstly thankyou for the feedback that is most lovely of you - if you have already seen a bunch of vids and been confused by the terrible information, that is exactly the situation i am trying to help resolve with actual robust and independent information from the worlds most exhaustive testing. Secondly, absolutely not a silly question - i do need to get to making a lubricant choice matrix to try to help guide decisions - tis on my to do list.
You have two top option paths for you - either option will be brilliant for your drivetrain re outstanding day in day out low friction and wear, just a couple of key differences between them which may sway your choice.
Silca SS drip or Ceramic Speed UFO drip - both super low friction and wear, and zero initial penetration issues - which is very important if you need to properly clean chain post wet ride. Silca ss drip is very clean, but has a bit lesser lifespan before starting to sound and feel dry, so re application is relatively frequent (say circa 200km road and 100 to 150km gravel depending on dust). UFO drip is a much heavier application, and will remain still very clean IF you ensure you wipe excess after application - but it is a little bit more faff to wipe all the excess - so you get a bit longer per treatment of silky smoothness before feeling and sounding dry, but at cost of a couple extra mins wiping excess on re application.
Both UFO drip and SS drip are very easily reset post a wet ride with boiling water flush rinses as the majority of the contaminated lubricant will melt off. A perfect clean can be done by using boiling water rinses, dry (hair dryer), UFO clean bath, rinse with boiling water until water goes from white to clear - dry - perfect.
Option 2 - Effetto Mariposa Flower Power Wax - this is newly tested product by ZFC - and it has set a new record lowest wear rate for a drip lubricant across the brutal main test protocol. It is extremely smooth feel to ride and for a long time per treatment - it is a long lasting lubricant ( i will be replacing Smoove with this product). It has no penetration issues (unlike wax lubricants like squirt / smoove / grax etc). From a drivetrain lubrication perspective, it is perfect.
The offset is that it is not as clean over time as something like SS drip / UFO drip - the lubricant does go black and feels a bit oily to touch. You can keep looking cleaner by wiping with microfiber cloth with a bit of alcohol spray on it post every ride, but it will never be as clean as the super refined paraffin base lubricants like ss drip / ufo drip. So you have decently longer treatment lifespan, and it will still be cleaner than a lot of wet lubricants, but it is going to be a blacker drivetrain vs SS drip / UFO drip.
And not being a paraffin base wax, you will not melt off the majority to be able to do a great contamination reset post wet ride with just boiling water. You need a solvent that works on waxes such as UFO clean or effetto's own Alpine cleaner - so depending how often you ride in the wet - this may sway things one way or another.
Me personally - if i wasnt waxing - as much as i love the effetto product for its amazing low wear performance and ride feel and treatment longevity, it is a brilliant product - i love a super clean drivetrain and one that stays super clean with minimal effort - so for me it would be Silca SS drip - i find it very easy to just apply in 10 secs, work in for 10 secs ish, wipe excess with microfiber cloth for 10 secs, allow overnight set - and yeehaa. For my riding this would need to be done every 2nd or 3rd ride - but its just 30 to 40 secs of actual work to have an always clean, super low friction drivetrain. For me that is worth that time vs having double the treatment lifespan of say effetto, but at the cost of a blacker drivetrain.
A bottle of ss drip is not cheap - but - if you have a look at the cost to run modelling on lubricant test page - you can see that over 10,000km - the cost of the lubricant is the very minor cost component - parts wear of chain, cassette and chain rings is by far the dominant cost to run factors for ones riding - a genuine top lubricant will pay for itself many times over in short order by reducing wear rates by many times vs average to poor lubricant choice options.
Hope that helps!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you so much for the wealth of information here. It is very helpful in making my decision. Before my initial question, I had already purchased a bottle of Smoove but have not tried it yet. I just got frustrated with trying everything from dry and lasting 30 miles to wet and looking like tar after 30 miles. You mentioned that you will be replacing Smoove on your list with Flower Power Wax. Does this mean that you still feel Smoove is a decent option?, at least until I use up the bottle? I'll likely switch over to UFO drip if not full on hot melt waxing after the Smoove is gone. I appreciate you!
Hi Adam
Thanks for all the information and hard work you are doing.!
Seems this topic got me strong, i find myself thinking on it a lot for few years now. Have tried a lot of stuff. And been enjoying exploring it.
I have to say,
That something bother me with all the so called dry lubricants, wax, teflon and all the other dry lubes.
Seems to me that the power of the pedaling, i mean the watts that rider puts on the pedals, make a lot of difference.
Seems to me that in real life, the chains where i have used dry lubes on it, ended their life very fast, where i put wet lubes and kept chain clean got longer life.
You have mentioned this issue of real life watts, all along the way, but i suspect that the results in real life are even more dramatic.
Also the longevity with dry lubes including wax seems to work very nice up to 50-70 km but after that shifting is getting harder.
Seems that the dry/wax layer lubes dont stand in front of high power pedaling and long rides.
Im trying now the new generation lubes which are using the tribology method, like Revolube, Synergetic and Tru-Tension Tungsten Wet , and the results are that i feel that i get constant lubrication no matter what power i put and the shifting is smooth for 150 km, in opposite to wax/dry film lubes.
Well, its not empirical as your testing but still i can "feel" it when riding.
So maybe your longevity test + some new watt test, can help us
To understand better what lube willbe the right one for us.
Second thing,
The first 1000 km in your test which translate to dry road riding, i find hard to give me the exact information that i need, because i find my chain has some sand and dust in it even riding dry road conditions. So Maybe better you put some quantity of sand/dust to mimic real world riding.
Again, i thank you for your interesting work, personally im thrilled from it and find my self dreaming on chains and lubes...
Hahah :)
By the way it will be very interesting to see results about the cleaning/lubing lubes like Lillylube, and of course the mythical Prolink, where every time using it, one should saturate chain and clean it till the cloth has no more oil marks on it. Interesting if that method works.
With lot of respect,
Oz from the Holy Land
Hi there Oz - thanks for taking the time to put in some great thoughts and feedback.
It sounds overall like your previous lubricants may have been the more traditional "dry" lubricants - finish line dry, muc-off c3 dry or products similar to those, and yes they are terrible, they have so little actual lubrication and are mostly carrier - so very short lifespan and very high wear rates.
With wax lubricants - there is huge variance - but unless on e-bike - any of the top wax lubricants tested should give much longer lifespan than 50 to 70km. And it isnt normal for shifting to get harder when a lifespan is getting a bit done, and the friction on lateral shifting load is tiny compared the main load from pedalling. What will be normal is for the chain to sound and feel noticeably dry, often with a "zzzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz" noise / feel on each pedal stroke - but shifting wont be impacted. If you are getting shifting impacted, the only cause i can think for that is that you are really wax gunking up the drivetrain, either with a gunky wax lube choice, or way over lubricating leading to big wax build up. As the extra lubricity from a fresh treatment is wearing off, the tacky gunky build up that is really trying to gum up shifting will start to re present itself.
My testing cannot simulate anyone's actual riding as such, so i cant try to emulate "dry road riding" for X cyclist. You may be cycling in a more dusty / sandy area than many others. Even in my city of Adelaide, there is a huge difference between one who lives in the hills and cycles in the hills, and one who lives just 20km west and often cycles along the roads that parallel the beach - there is a great loop from one beach front suburb of glenelg to outer harber and back - a 45km loop of roads that have a lot of sand on them from wind blowing sand off the beach, and so wet lubricant users can suffer abrasive contamination absorption similar to a gravel or mtb rider in some places. Yet they are just riding in dry road conditions. A few km's inland, it will be not as bad, but likely still worse than many other non coastal cities dry road etc etc. There is just so much variance.
The key for the test is that it simply provides a control benchmark. If one is riding in very low contamination conditions - then you can compare the wear rates from block 1. If one is riding in higher dust contamination environments - then the results from dry contamination block 2 will be more relevant. Dont expect to get the same wear rates as the test - the test is just the test, and it isnt your riding. But you can expect one lubricant choice vs another lubricant choice to deliver a similar comparative wear rate to each other in your riding in such conditions as shown in the test block. Ie if lubricant A has half the wear rate of lubricant B, then you can expect lubricant A to significantly out perform lubricant B for you as well in your riding in such conditions.
Pro link was already de bunked by Friction Facts - it was 50th out of 55 lubricants tested - so really bad - and the claims of "conditioning the chain metal" over time - that is a completely flawed approach - it takes friction to abrade peaks of metal surface, and it is a wet lubricant, so contamination will be an issue, scuffing the surface creating new peaks. This approach just obviously cannot and does not work, and re testing post X kms for prolink definitely showed no improvement. I am not bothering my resources testing such a product any more than i need to jump off a building to check if gravity is present in that area.
I would love to test many other lubricants over time, just resources - each test takes significant time and $$ resources to conduct (mostly time is the issue) and zfc is just so heavily booked with testing for mfg these days as they really have no other credible robust test facility to get independent verification of their products performance, so it has been pretty hard to find a spot to test lubricant of own volition / curiosity at the moment, but where i can i will be trying to sneak in a test of my own - will be doing first aerosol lubricant test soon of boeshield T9 - that has been requested a lot, and not having tested an aerosol lubricant i have wanted to get data on one. I think it will be terrible, as aerosol is just a terrible way to go for a bicycle chain (it has to be very thin, so treatment lifespan i think will be an issue - i may be wrong and maybe it is great by way of the pressure spray does better cleaning per application vs drip, however aerosol is also extremely wasteful vs drip so lubricant cost per 10.,000km will be very high. anyway we shall see).
Stay tuned to latest news to keep up to date with new tests, new recommended products from testing etc. I think you will really enjoy rex black diamond, or if want to try a wax again, effetto mariposa flower power wax lubricant has just set a new record low wear rate across main test for a drip lubricant - and is impressively long lasting per treatment.
welcome to the land of low friction :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992
Hi Adam!
So nice to read your well explained answer to me!! And spend your precious time for me! But i guess we are all "friction fanatics" :)
Well, Josh from Silca did a pin test and was very surprised to see thar prolink progold got 3mm scuff while lot of others with faster velo friction results, made bigger scuff.
Adam Sir, what about the lube resistance to power? Can you check it? I mean,is it possible that Wax lubes have lower lubricity / anti friction ability then wet lubes?
With Revolube something very interesting is happening, i have to tell you- without any personal interest of course- when you "hammer" on the pedals seems the chain disappear or become elastic. I dont know how to describe this feeling but i suspect this comes from the tribology phenomena.
Well Rex black seems the best drip lube,almost boring (🤭) from your test.
Im ok with revo.,syner. and tru-tens. tung.
Seems they are smooth, long run and also give an excuse to wipe the chain every day- every one needs some therapy 😆.
Dear Adam thanks again and will watch for news in your website.
Oz
Is there any lube that stays on after a ride in the wet? I am looking for a lube that allows me to simply wipe the chain down with a cloth after a ride in the wet and leave it at that.
Hi Ruud, yes a number of wet lubricants do. I would avoid at this stage untested / proven lubes like RNR extreme etc as i just dont know how abrasive they get, top wet choice at the moment is synergetic, it really is not washed off easily, is very low friction, and resists contamination better than other wet lubricants tested to date. A bottle is expensive but overall you can expect total cost to run to be a lot cheaper as a) an application amount is VERY small - you would go through multiple bottles of most other lubricants for one bottle of synergetic and b) lower wear = big cost savings. If you can - try to do some level of reset every 1000km tops - even just periodically pumping a bit of UFO clean or degreaser spray through to flush out some contamination that will help a lot re stopping the amount of contamination just continuing to build and get more and more abrasive - even just a couple mins on maintenance here and there if riding in harsh conditions can make a big difference for your drivetrain longevity
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks so much for the elaborate advise!
I was also looking into Revolubes and the Rex Black Diamond Chain Lube.
I am not sure to what extent you were able to test to what degree those lubes are able to resist rain, but i would love to know your thoughts on the rain resistance of those lubes compared to Synergetic?
Hi Adam, forgot to add how many times can you reuse the white spirit & methylated spirit
Hey tom, if it is cleaning factory grease off, and i think you are on sram chains - which are a pita for initial clean due to their factory glue, you are really looking at disposing responsibly the first 3 baths of turps, keep the final 2 for initial baths next chain. methylates spirit the 2nd bath is fine to be first bath next chain.
Hi Adam, thanks for quick reply. Much appreciated
Hi Adam. I follow your channel along with Jason Smith's and some others for some time now. I also run tests of my own but not as comprehensive as yours and of course I don't have as much accumulated data as you do. I would like to ask a few questions to show my audience. How about I do an interview with you talking about how we went from stealing cooking oil (MOST of us were kids) to the latest releases of bicycle chain lubricants to reasons for using dry lubricants. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. It may only be 5-10 minutes and I can send questions in advance. I wish it was something like a chat.. And of course, (although I do speak English) we speak Portuguese in Brazil so I would have to use subtitles for my audience. (and you would have to deal with my american accent) What do you say?
Hey mario, ah it is always honour to be invited to chat on this little are of focus, i can certainly have a crack and trying to help with any info - send q's to info@zerofrictioncycling.com.au, let me know also a bit about your testing - from start to where your at now that would be very interesting, and we can lock in a time for a chat. I will apologise in advance for the likely amount of subtitles you may need since i have trouble giving short answers ;)
BUT, if I arrive at work in rain, I don’t have a chance to pop the chain into s wax pot at my working place, right? So rust will be a topic here, isn’t it? Best
No, typically chain wont oxidise over a work day. If worried, just apply a very light coating of ss drip or tru tension tungsten all weather (immersive wax compatible lubricants) to tide over until next re wax. As the re wax re sets contamination, there is just no easier or more cost effective (and solvent free) way to keep a chain very low friction when constantly riding in harsh conditions. ANy other method to remotely match immersive waxing will a) fall way short b) cost a lot more in both time and cleaning product.
Thanks, Adam! I own the CS Ufo, but I hear you. You say Silca or TTT!
So you think that it is actually OK to immerse my chain in SQUIRT lube ? been thinking about that for a while . Once its diped into "squirt" you let the excess fall and wipe it with a clean rag and good to go ? And how good is it going to be compared to hot wax melt like silca or MSW ? thanks
For a first application post proper chain clean, absolutely. Squirt / Smoove / Grax - all of those it should be part of their instructions - they all very clearly have significant penetration issues. This is why ab graphen went to market advising you MUST immersive apply first application - they should advise too, i believe they do not as it scares off consumers much more vs saying just apply and all is grand. Yes you do want to thoroughly remove excess or you will soon have a lot of build up which is undesirable. It will not match waxing but it is at least a solid lubricant. Testing for immersive application has wear at 4.5% for clean block 1 vs 19.1% when applied as best as one can via drip on application post chain clean. It will always higher wear in all blocks vs immersive waxing and the top tested wax lubricants like ss drip and ufo drip, but it is at least a decent lubricant choice. If one only rides in dry, it is overall a good option, it is really if one rides a bit in wet that this is not best choice as unless you remove the contamination that water has trucked into chain and been pressed into and now land locked in the lubricant - it isnt going anywhere - so your next rides in the sun will be high friction, high wear. Squirt is a much tougher clean than others mentioned, and then the faffing to negate penetration issues that the others mentioned do not have - so if you ride a lot in the wet, there are much lower friction and wear (and much easier to maintain) choices.
Thanks a lot for answering ! i almost never do wet rides so i think it will be ok. Very Good job on all the testing and videos .
Can you try out Momum Mic Wax?
oooh theres a few other immersive waxes out there - it would be nice to try another one or two but a) im pretty much booked out with testing for rest of 2022, b) i have some higher priority tests to do when i can like an aerosol lubricant test (boeshield t9), very long lasting wet lubricants in wet conditions etc - having already found two great immersive waxes - unless the mfg is booking with me to test, im not sure when i will get a spot to curiosity test another immersive wax, and i would have to have a look at a bunch of them out there to see which one really should be tested.
which chain would you recommend alternative to the Dura Ace 11 speeds ? Thank you.
hey roborovski, the ybn sla range (not h11). Can be hard to get in some parts of the world. But they are fast, have circa 50% longer wear life vs DA, and their low friction coating gets along very well with wax's so treatment lifespans stay silky smooth for longer before starting to sound & feel dry
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Is the ybn sla 11 speed a good chain for eMTB?
My eMTB has a KMC e11S EPT chain on it, is that okay to wax (after following all of your instructions of course)? I recall from reading your website at length that the KMC chain has some kind of coating or surface process that causes problems for wax adherence?
@@retromodernart4426 ah for e-mtb not so much - the ybn sla is not e-bike rated. The kmc is super fast wearing - for giving you greater pin riveting strength they basically then dont bother with wear resistance treatments. Best chain for ebikes is going to be shimano ultegra (or dura ace)- only medium re wear life but thats a lot more than kmc, and they are e-bike rated. wax adherence a lot better than kmc's tested, not as good as ybn, but it is best to ensure run an e-bike rate chain on e-bike. it is really unlikely but sometimes if a chain snaps at the wrong moment in the wrong way and it wraps in rear wheel spokes, you can just do some carnage ripping off mech, badly damaging wheel, cracking chain stay, and not staying upright. Very rare - but rare things happen. even just a benign chain snap can be annoying if no chain breaker and long way from home, and ultegra / DA still a good chain indeed - i would go that for 11spd.
Has anyone had any experience passing the dirty wax through a super fine mesh filter to
Remove contaminants every now and again? Thinking about doing this to see if it will
Increase the lifespan of the immersion wax.
Hey M-sparx! - Typically this doesnt go very well. The wax will cool and quickly clog the filter. Some pour into a paper cup and cut bottom half cm off, but you also remove a lot of the friction modifier as that settles to bottom as well. Best way if want to try is to swish well so friction modifiers well distributed, contamination will settle faster than most of the modifiers. Use a bbq tray and press down in the middle to make it a cone shape. Decant into cone , allow to set, and just cut a half cm tip off. Filter method will fail.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 just for a bit of fun I might muck around with some contaminated wax when the time comes to dispose it. Knowing the nominal micron size of the friction modifiers compared to
road grime would be interesting. Naturally road grime will vary in size and density. Having access to various metal mesh makes heat retention easier compared to say a coffee filter or cloth arrangement, can flow it through with a bit of help from a hair dryer among other things. I suspect it reaches a point where some of the contaminants reach a similar particle size to the friction modifiers and suspend within the mixture just as easily and therefore make it deeper into the chains. It makes me think what would Nile red do 😂
What's your opinion on lubricating gear cables for smoother shifting?
I am of the opinion that you definitely should! There are as many answers re what to use as there are people asking it. Avoid crap drip lubes - many claim to be perfect for cables as well as your chain, many will be just as shite for your cables as they are for your chain. Dont wax them, waxing is brilliant on chains, not so much on cables and terrible for bearings. Personally i use a light freehub grease (NFS grease or extralite alugrease. They are super slipperly, light (you dont want a heavy grease) - but freehub greases to not go tacky over time with exposure to air (or the pawls would stick and that is bad) - that is a specific design property for freehub grease and one that is very desirable for cable lubrication.
Was a 5 years home-mechanic and 2 years of LBS mechanic, I did experiment on a lot of stuffs back at home and at the shop. I have tried grease, chain lube, and wax immersion on cables (brakes+gears). Theoretically speaking, hot wax immersion should work wonderfully on inner cables. However, it is actually a total nightmare as it will gunk up the cable housing, cable insertion become a bit troublesome.
Tried the wet lube (a popular brand from UK) method on inner cables. The lube that were tested are e-bike all weather lube (aerosol), ceramic wet lube (pink), and regular wet lube (blue). For the first 2-3 weeks, the cables were silky smooth. After that, they will feel 'sticky'. On closer inspection, those lube had turn tacky, bit like semi-dried glue. Probably due to the solvent have evaporated after being expose to air.
As of now, Jagwire pro polished cables+VERY thin coating of Shimano special grease for cable (the white stuff) have work wonders for me. Even after more than a year, both brakes and gears feel smooth and responsive.
The quantity of solvent to clean a chain seems to me excessively large. I suspect one could use a lot less if the chain was agitated better (eg run over jockey wheels so that it each link is rotating against the next) , plus using a longer soak time. Has anyone done experiments on this?
Hey paul - are you meaning re new chain or existing chain?
You dont need rotation of links when cleaning chain - the chain is not waterproof at all, solvent / degreaser will penetrate easily. With solvent - for a new chain - it is simply a matter of saturation. Ie with a ybn clean - first bath - it is heavily contaminated with grease - no matter how long i soak - after a certain time - (about 15 mins) - nothing further with happen, and there will still be some grease that slightly contaminates 2nd bath. with a sram chain - 1st bath the grease is heavily clouded. 2nd bath slightly less so, 3rd bath less so again, 4th bath less so again etc - it doesnt matter how long one soaks the initial baths, X amount of solvent can only absorb X amount of grease - one can do less baths by having greater volume of solvent per bath - the above is based on batches of 4 chains in the ultrasonics.
For some lubricants (ie some wet lubricants ) - if one doesnt do a perfect clean things will still be ok. For wax lubricants / immersive wax - where we need to wax to bond to clean and clear chain metal - a very good clean needs to be done. On bike struggles a lot vs off bike - it is hard to get the volume of solvent & subsequent absorption through the chain on bike - the high concentrated UFO clean is really the way to go if one needs to do on bike.
For existing chain one just has to keep going until what is coming out is not black or grey - and this can be litres - so for existing chains there is absolutely a cut off re what is viable- ie if one has done 1000km+ on an ultegra or 105 11spd chain - is it worth 4 litres of solvent through chain of that cost that may be 30 to 50% worn depending on what previously running. If it is a very wear durable and expensive xx1 chain or sram red chain - for sure it is still worth doing etc.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the long reply. I'm talking about either new or used - both seem excessive. I know that the solvent will enter a chain bearing without much trouble, but once it's filled, I suspect there will not be much movement due to surface tension - a large surface area of the bearing roller internals and sides. Therefore I wonder whether it's been proven that the multiple washes represents a pure 'dilution' process, or rather some flow- and/or diffusion-limited process, where you are still removing a more concentrated or undissolved deposit from within the chain. Just comparing new vs used for example, if the cleaning of both are claimed to be pure dilution, it should not take any more liquid to clean the used vs the new, because the dilutions should be very close to identical. Rather what is going on I think is that the used chain has a more resistant, oxidised, caked deposits that are more difficult to remove, and come off more slowly. And if this is true for a used chain, it raises the question of whether it's true for a new chain too (ie diffusion or flow limited, not pure dilution).
@@paulwary I dont think so, it would be handy if that was the case, but certainly have not observed that over a lot of cleaning over a lot of years. Ie there are times i run out of time and so the chains are left to soak overnight (new or used). I still have the same amount of cleaning the next day - it isnt magically ah wow that one was super black and now its really clear next bath. Its the same as if i followed normal process. As container method is agitated, or ultrasonic is ultrasonic - there is no surface tension holding things up.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks.
Amazing content as usual!
I was wondering if I do much much damage to the drivetrain when I use the chains that are in rotation with on roadie with a dedicated Dura Ace cassette on a trainer every now and again that is equipped with 105. The chains are religiously maintained and regularly waxed. Thanks!
Hey Sp! now should be any worry at all. Damage to drivetrain is really from running chains that are worn past the 0.5% wear mark - so that now the roller is not sliding neatly between teeth and pressing directly into tooth face as load is introduced, but instead hitting tip of tooth and sliding down the face. If your chains are not worn, then it will not be wearing very much at all your cassette or ring teeth. If there was an issue with the trainer cassette being too worn vs your chains, then you would experience chain jumping under load on that cassette.