Episode 1: Carol Tavris on Mistakes, Justification, and Cognitive Dissonance
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2018
- www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
For the first full episode of Mindscape, it's an honor to welcome social psychologist Carol Tavris. Her book with co-author Eliot Aronson, Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me), explores the effect that cognitive dissonance has on how we think. We talk about the fascinating process by which people justify the mistakes that they make, and how that leads to everything from false memories to political polarization. 
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I love Carol's voice, her cadence, her phonetic bounce. She also has a touch of Carl Sagan in her speech -- where she stretches out the sounding of a word here and there.
Indeed, her voice is perfect for online delivery! I was immediately captivated.
Right!? I was like, damn she should have a podcast!
No, Carol is the other one. Shaun is a dude.
@@alangarland8571 They probably know
😮 Omg... now I can't unheard Sagan in her vocal inflections. She's so awesome
Excellent first episode! Right balance of density of ideas, humor, clarity, length.
I was delighted by episode #1. How fantastic that Mr. Carroll, a physicist, etc. would host a show on cognitive disonance. Now, there's an alarmingly relevant topic! I was impressed how generally aware of and well informed on the topic Sean was. He clearly understood, on multiple levels, the...pressing importance and dire need for the fair and reasoned discussion of this topic.
In my opinion, the term, 'cognitive disonance', represents and addresses a highly destructive form of social malaise, that has taken on epidemic proportions in our culture. Kudos to Mr. Carroll for his awareness and concern about what is going on around him socially, outside the realm of science. He has reached out, here, to help people with this much needed podcast and I salute him for it.
Hey Sean, this is an amazing start for your podcast! I could heavily relate to what Carol Tavris had to say and learned something about how to be aware of your own cognitive bias and dissonance in a helpful way that hopefully will lead me less astray in the future. Keep going, this will easily become one of my favorite podcasts, right next to good old Joe's Experience and Harris's Waking Up. Thank you
Yaaayyy!!! I listened to this discussion last night on your website and I was so hoping you'd start putting your shows on YT and you did-thank you!
I'm so happy you now have a podcast, I've been following everything I possibly can from you on youtube and you're one of my favorite people to listen to, so articulate and so good at explaining complicated subject, also a great conversanalist
Looking forward for each and every one of your episodes!
Wow, what's a gem I have found! Many-many hours of fascinating talks ahead of me! Thank you so much for those podcasts
Sean Carroll is easily my favorite scientist to listen to and/or watch.
I'm just glad someone other than Tyson stepped up.
Krauss is my favorite, I'd recommend giving him a listen if you haven't already. peace!
@thomas anderson - Krauss is easily a close second. They both have some really good lectures.
My favorites are (in physics): Brian Green (string theorist), Sean Carrol, Neil DG Tyson, David Wallace, Lawrance Krauss (in biology) Robert Sapolsky and David Attenborough. Unfortunately, David Wallace doesn't have that much stuff on the internet.
sabine hossenfelder is probably his female equivalent, and more prone to humour.
Fantastic. This podcast has been on my radar for about a month and I'm just starting it now. This is a great listen, looking forward to hearing more. Thank you for making these Sean.
Dr. Carroll, the excellence of your work does not cease to amaze me. Congrats!!
Hey Sean just wanted to say what a great first episode. I had never heard of Carol before, she was delightful and articulate. I really enjoyed the ideas discussed here and you are a great host, thanks.
Well done interview about a difficult subject. I'm sure these will just get better. Thanks Sean
Excellent podcast - we're off to a good start. Thank you Sean.
Thank you so much for this fascinating podcast. I can't wait for more!
Incredible guest. Two great thinkers and communicators. Keep them coming.
I've never made a mistake so i found this discussion fascinating. Now i know what life is like for everyone else!
Sean and Carol both are awesome, thanks Sean starting this podcast
Sean: This was a great podcast! Dr. Carol Tavris is a great interview, she is well-spoken and knowledgeable! You asked the right questions to keep the dialog moving along: You are a natural at this! I'm also going to read her books when I get the time. I love learning about women in science and academia, especially when they are in fields that are "for males-only!" These women are sign posts for younger people to look up to and to follow. You hit a grand-slam the first time up! I look forward to more of your wonderful content!
This was great. Looking forward to more from Sean.
Good show Sean..its hard to believe that in the 40 years since I was in college VERY LITTLE has changed in our understanding of these issues..
Absolutely love it Sean! Thank you.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant talk. Very-very interesting material
This episode is going on my playlist...off for my morning run. Thank you.
Thank you, Sean, for the great podcast. It deserves much bigger audience.
Great first show! I was taken aback by the cognitive dissonance and falling in love part.
Sean Carroll's Mindscape is the most underrated podcast on the Internet
Thanks for doing such an insightful podcast my man. And thanks for putting it out on youtube! It might be a slow start but if you keep up the quality content this will have huge positive effects on our society. Keep it up! (also have on Lawerance Krauss to school you out of string theory)
I scanned through the comments and didn’t notice this reference. Robert Trivers has an excellent book, The Folly of Fools, that considers whether or not there would be any Darwinian advantage to self-deception. Without giving much of his thinking away, the short answer is “yes”. I heartily recommend that volume to anyone interested in this topic.
YES! so excited
"I don't have a drinking problem. I drink, I get drunk, I fall down. No problem" addiction could have been addressed. Some of us, me, can benefit from this psychological aspect. I haven't heard MY why,until now. Thank you Sean.
My mind is blown already and I’m only 5 seconds in
Aaron Bowley i thought you were going to say ‘and im only 5 years old’ loll
Very happy to watch this serie
Came here from Joe Rogan! Yes. We need more people like you! Thank you
I've taken to adopting the "world View" that I am very sure that I am wrong about my beliefs, in some manner or another, and it is my job as a good person to identify and remediate any faulty thinking. This allows me to hold to my identity as a clever and good person even when I discover I have been acting or thinking poorly about any particular subject. It doesn't always work but it makes it easier to be charitable toward others with different opinions because chances are we are both wrong and any dialogue has the potential to make us both better.
Of course I see the logical contradiction about being "very sure" that I am "wrong" - but the point is to assume that stance because it causes one to become more introspective and alert to inconsistencies. The nuance is of course that I may be wrong...but I allow that I am not very wrong - thus providing for a way to carry my beliefs forward but with constant evolution.
Thank you for this beautiful podcast!
I just noticed that the volume is rather low.
Very interesting and informative conversation!
there couldn't be a better topic to kick things off with, everyone needs to here this.
A very interesting topic. I do agree that Cognitive Dissonance is very often at the root of many if not most social issues. And as much as we will love to point out how we see others suffering from an inability to listen to us, I think the real lessons to be drawn from this is not that others are so easily mislead, but rather how very, very mislead we must also be. And this will be an extra hard lesson to draw for well-educated people.
I'm certain many a liberal is already thinking back on how conservatives are hard-lining on their beliefs despite all the evidence to the contrary, but the real take-away from this should be that we have all been talking to each other the wrong way. We need to embrace people and their mistakes more - embrace them as if they were actually right - because it may well be that we completely misunderstood their point of view. And once you have truly understood the situation these people are in, only then can you, together, find a way out of your mutually dissonant situation.
♡
Wonderful talk, excellent choice of guest. I should have preferably listened to it on the official site. Mistakes were made but...
Instant entry to my top 5 podcasts.
We have a saying in my neck of the woods it roughly translates to - first pancake is always burnt.. This just goes to show - you can never trust colorful aphorisms - this first podcast was wonderful to listen to. You are pretty good at this, don't know how much editing went into it (you can never trust the internet can you?:), but it looked like episode 301, not ep1. And glad that you are on google podcast app too - subscribed. Super excited you finally started a podcast. I don't think you take suggestions for guests, but if I might throw one in it would be David Deutsch, please have him on someday :)
There is a Russian saying: "Первый блин - комом" (literally: "[The] first pancake [is a] clod")
Sean, you are the most Likable personalities Among the popular scientist in my book. # 1 on my list. L.K. is ok, N.D.T is brilliant but your way of interpreting your own ideas and explaining the unknown about QM and interviewing the most intriguing people is so valuable to us public people. yeah!
What a thoughtful podcast .
Would love to hear a Podcast with Carol on the subject of Trump followers in spite of evidence to the contrary of their beliefs.
Around 1 hour 6 minutes Sean said something like we evolved to imagine the future though the adaptation of our ability to recall the past. I suspect that the opposite is more true because imagining the future is much more useful for survival that recalling the past. If one offers the counter argument that recall is necessary to function (i.e. where did i leave my keys) I would argue that this is still orientated towards the goal of finding my keys... the important point "is where will I find my keys" (rather than "where did I leave them").
Excellent podcast Sean. Please consider including video feed as you did on episode zero. One of the attractive things about Rogan's podcast is that I can watch the conversation occur. Three hours of watching an interesting conversation feels short. Three hours of listening feels like more of a chore (I don't know why... just not as enjoyable). Thanks and keep up the good work.
I'm more convinced now that spiritual ways of dealing with "ego" are actually heuristics dealing with cognitive dissonance.
Potatoe potatoe i suppose lol
What I especially love about this guy is he's the real deal, not just some yo-yo who decided to post videos on a subject (s)he doesn't actually understand. For example, there's a guy from Lincoln Labs, Don Lincoln who is a minor experimental physicist who pontificates on theoretical physics but seems to understand very little of it. The great value of Professor Carroll's videos (including his The Great Courses courses), podcasts and books is he actually knows what he's talking about. AND, he's got some weird natural talent (and interest) in communicating it. An extremely rare combination.
Peter Attia often mentions that 'Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me' is one of his favorite books!
I wish a little more had been said about how cognitive dissonance ties in with all the other fallacies that behavioral economics has revealed in the last 40 years.
The 'You Are Not So Smart' podcast has a few good episodes on changing people's mind, as well as the bugs in our brain (ex. The Science of Mis-Remembering/Illusions with Julia Shaw and #133 Uncivil Agreement).
Awesome stuff!
Great podcast man loving it please keep it up
Sean if you read these comments I hope at some point you are able to video record these conversations! Being able to see someone’s mannerisms and demeanor when talking is helpful to see in a conversation! Plus it feels more engaging like you’re more apart of the conversation! Just my opinion, regardless love the conversations :)
Educational and enjoyable...thanks...
Thanks, interesting conversation.
Finished the video already? lol
Well of course not, I'm 12 minutes in and I'm enjoying a lot. Judging by previous experience listening to Carroll and taking into account the guest of this first podcast - it will indeed be interesting conversation. Nonetheless, you've made an interesting observation.
awesome podcast. This should have more views
Good stuff... great guest.
Very interesting first guest!
Super engaging. Hopefully you will open a q&a discussion one day.
As a Mormon cartoonist I experienced something very disturbing back in the 1980s. Carl Sagan and Joseph Campbell helped me through it.
It would be great to have the video
Came here from Episode Zero. I was quite disappointed to see there's no video.
I am listening to these while I work but I agree it's always nice to have video.
I've been on sean's newsletter, and wished he had a podcast when I watched him on Joe Rogan. It would be great to have a video, but doesn't make big of a difference as I'm listening while playing cars games
let it ride - good info is good info. The desire to have visual stimulus seems like a modern twitch.
636 subscriber thanks for taking some away from your every day life to do this.
I had to pause at the iraq quote just to shed some strange light being involved in a small way in the war. I have read several articles in the military about the “oil spot” and how they built kinetic energy there to keep terrorist activity focused in that region. I never really understood them until I became more familiar with relativity.
I am now inspired... 1) Sean exists, 2) the Internet exists 3), Sean has a podcast. I'm all good now. :)
Very good topic. Taking responsibility of our own actions after working hard of being aware of themselves…..
Consciousness….reality…..?? ….
It's too short. I want more!
I once had an arguement about saying and doing are two different things being demonstrably wrong but then could not demonstrate it.
This podcast confirmed my bias that understanding the fallibility of our own minds is the first and most important thing to learn
Sean, could you add video to your podcast? I find it much easier to follow the great conversations when I can also see people ala Joe rogans podcast. Loving your podcast!
Excellent
Great, but I have a little technical point. I like to boom audio throughout the house while doing chores, whether it be music or talk, but the volume level in this one seem a bit low. I want there to be distortion at maxvol so I can adjust it down, but not at maxvol to be unable to hear in the furthest reaches of the house. Turn it up a bit. Thanks.
i discovered you from joe rogans show, I'm glad you have your own podcast now. Quick suggestion though, would you ever consider adding video for the youtube side?
"A cheater is bad. You take one step down the pyramid and you become more entrenched in your beliefs of whether cheating is a good thing or a bad thing" .... I know not literal, but this is where I pick up from Carol Tavris
To me it seems more nuanced than that… I cheated in high school calculus-by learning the programming language of my graphing calculator. TI-81 baby! It always gave me the right answers on a quiz because every week I programmed the formulas for next weeks quiz into my calculator.
Was I cheating? Does it matter? Did I become so entrenched in my beliefs that I became a computer programmer? Well…Yes I did become a programmer. I think the more important frame of thought should be “have I harmed myself or anyone else” and then ask ourselves “why not question the definition of cheating... what is good.. what is bad?”
In short don’t always doubt yourself… sometimes everyone else actually is wrong :)
P.S. Love your appearances on Joe Rogan
P.P.S this is a great segway into your next conversation on ethics in AI
Very good example of cognitive dissonance, you are justifying yourself on the behavior. And you are not wrong.
Our brains can't test for correctness. But self consistency, aka coherency, is a fact about a data set that can be established without external information.
For interesting potential evolutionary reasons _why_ we would tend towards self-deception and other related biases they talk about, I suggest the book by Robert Kurzban, "Why Everyone (else) Is a Hypocrite" - In short, the reason why we feel uncomfortable and conflicted first, before resolving that predicament so we can feel better when we spin a good story that we believe, is because we are more convincing to others - potential allies, rivals, mates - when we fool ourselves as well about our intelligence and morality.
(As Robert Trivers would say, an arms race of cheat detection leading to hiding lies even from yourself, so that you avoid detection.)
Emotions, good and bad, are motivators, the carrots and sticks of genes, to drive us in general towards the actions that lead to our survival and reproductive success.
JRE brought me here...✌️
Would love to see James Ladyman talk about ontic structural realism on the podcast.
This.
The basic reason for smoking is addiction but the cognitive dissonance reasoning is; dangerous but to give them-selves a break.
When you are a smoker, there are so many good reasons to smoke. I experienced cognitive dissonance in my relationship with tobacco, for certain. It is one of the reasons that it is so difficult to quit. It's my break timer at work, it's a primal and sacred relationship of man with fire, it is a relaxing way to unwind, it is a friend that will always be there for you when nobody else is, it is an addiction but hey it's better than shooting up heroin, etc etc etc.... It is amazing, though, how all of that can just be cut away when a good friend who truly cares about you tells you that they have seen other good friends die of lung cancer and emphysema, and it would devastate them to have to attend your funeral because of your cognitive dissonance with smoking.
loved it. the couch is not off the table though
An audio only podcast on a video medium? I feel as if I'm it's 1930 and I'm listening to an old radio broadcast on my RCA Victor radio set.
You should try listening with the monitor off to help ease you into sleep. Personally, I find it very soothing. Of course, it could just be an elaborate ruse to hypnotize me and implant some sinister logical agenda... ;_)
Congrats!
So, in order to work around a brute forcer on their cog dis. It may be a question of who are around them, short of being in the same boat as they are. Can we reach them with their resolve as it is. An influence of a 3rd party the person in finds to be valuable. This could be the long way to either laying it out flat, or slowly piece it together through conversation. Some tools to use could include having a degree of determination and visual contentment to convey that you are sincere. Hope that helps, this doesn't necessarily mean the dude will have a reliable 3rd party. So that could throw a lot more into the mix of my comment.
Thanks =)
Please upload these to soundcloud!
excellent, all your female guests (so far) seem to have a sharp wit and a gutsy laugh, as well as their expertise of course. a bit of free will might have been an intersting topic, but triff nonetheless.
Do you think we can use these ideas to help with alcoholics and drug attic’s on their views and there justifications
Sean Carroll sounds like someone I'd like to play video games and shoot the shit with. I have been following him since his first JRE and really have enjoyed this podcast so far... MORE EPISODES PLZ!
The scientific approach to exploring the brain and its relationship to the universe must necessarily explore the nature of thinking, the relationship of thinking to the thinker.
There is no field of scientific endeavor that explores the nature of thinking itself.
It is an obvious oversight that the whole field of psychology studies the products of thinking: beliefs, ideals, hopes, fears, images - but no experimenting into the nature of thinking itself.
Just as Einstein's genius was not to accept Newton's view of time and space as elements that cannot be further examined, the genius in the psychological field must not accept Descarte's conclusion of Cogito Ergo Sum as anything but a starting point.
"I think therefore I am' can easily be nudged beyond the boundary that Descarte set by seeing the fact that 'I think therefore I am thought' is a more accurate restatement that opens up the area of inquiry necessary for further understanding of the thinking being and the very limitations,, distortions, illusions that thinking itself imposes upon the order of the universe.
The quantum dimension points to the fact that thinking and its products - logic, reason, analysis - are not sufficient tools in themselves to produce insight into the quantum nature of nature. A hidden variable, which is hidden in plain sight, is the thinker and his/her unexamined thinking.
Recommended reading: The Ending of Time by J Krishnamurti and David Bohm (physicist)
56:59 I see this effect in RUclips comments quite frequently.
Just listening to all of these again. 'Let's start '? What the hell was that?
I do like any of your podcasts and video.
Listening to this on 12/21, ready for the end of the world.
I would love to see stats on what people think about intro songs in pod casts I personally find them an annoying waste of time 😐
I shed a lifetime of cognitive dissonance to discover I was, to my initial horror, instinctly conservative. Liberal lies are exhausting.
Sean Carroll is like Neil DGT except he understands what he's talking about.
I'm actually an expert on making mistakes. Especially on making bad decisions.
I wish I could get through my father-in-law’s dissonance. He’s usually a good, sane man but a complete sucker for anything he hears on Fox News (the masters of social dissonance).
every time Carol talks, all i can imagine is Meryl Streep
good. now it needs moving images.
starts at 2:57
Came from jre podcast
Talk about information theory if you get the chance.