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As someone who started self-studying Japanese four years ago at the age of 37, this video made me feel much better about my chances of really being able to understand the language one day!
English to Japanese is a BIG jump, though. Japanese is currently my 4th-best language. A distant 4th. And I suspect it'll get passed by every new European language I pick up. Good luck!
@ it’s definitely one of the hardest languages I could’ve picked for a second language! But also very fun, especially when I can understand things. Four languages is awesome! Good luck in all your future studies!
"That is, after all, the whole point of this channel: smug superiority" Appreciate the honesty, and one more reason I am righter than my friends: I only learn thing from YT channels that exist provably for this very reason 😁
@@TodayIFoundOut the main problem is rather to keep all my glory in check so that these pesky mortals are able to endure my presence. haa.. sometimes life is really exhausting😋 ps: I love your humor in the videos
One huge advantage thar kids have over adults is the lack of fear and/or embarrassment that comes with making mistakes in language learning. I've known so many students do anything not to have to read out in front of the class for fear of being laughed at.
Also they get forced into the discipline of language learning by their parents and schools. For most adults, learning a language is like going to the gym. People start it, but then life gets in the way and they lack the motivation to force themselves to do it.
I beg to differ on that, I remember being terrified of being asked questions in primary school, one of my teachers recognised this and would deliberately call on me, I'd be humiliated as i hated being the centre of attention. She would push it a bit harder. Thinking about it now as an adult, she may have been trying to break that fear of attention in me, but I can tell you now, children have humility and fear of failure just like any adult. The fear of failure and humility is apart of our automatic fight or flight response.
I started studying German in the 6th grade and continued through my sophomore year of college (although by the time I got to college I was fluent and in German literature classes). Once I reached a certain level, my ability to speak, read and write improved exponentially. Of course my mastery of the English language had matured as well. I had the confidence to blurt out complex sentences without thinking. As in any language, my vocabulary grew by inferring the meaning of an unknown word by the context of the sentence. These are all things that happen with maturity. I knew I was fluent when I dreamed in German (that was weird the first time). The one thing that confounded me was the articles. Why would the word for girl have a neutral article, but the word for boy have a masculine one? Sadly, it’s a use it or lose it skill and I’d be hard pressed to get myself to a bathroom now. Hopefully, it’s like riding a bicycle and the neural connections are just dusty. Do you have any studies on that? 😂 Finally, do you hate kids or was that just trash talking because we were in competition with them? You didn’t miss a chance!
(from a German teacher) You haven't lost the skills -- they're just hiding. Although it takes time and effort (both of which adults often sorely lack) to recover, it is possible. Give yourself a week or so "in the field," and you'll find that fluency comes back rather quickly. Viel Spaß und viel Glück!
16:58 I would imagine that this age range of second-language learners doing better than their parents has a TON to do with being in school actively learning the new language, learning grammar explicitly, and learning other subjects IN that new language. Another contributing factor could be that school children can be really mean and the motivation to blend in with everyone else is much stronger. Whereas their parents are far more likely to work and be surrounded by other immigrants who speak their native language, thus not even necessarily needing to practice their new language regularly, much less do things like learn other complex topics like mathematics in that new language.
My thoughts exactly! Nor would I be so absolutely certain that the poster understands how to use possessive and plural nouns correctly. You see these errors a lot. His point that people will not correct your mistakes in person, but just make one on line and watch them jump on it, was amusing in this context! 🙂
Besides the phonemes, there can be tonal issues as well. As a speaker of a tonal language, I've seen many examples of adult just not hearing the difference in tones, where kids still haven't filtered out that aspect yet.
At 16 I was sent to Bosnia in a community where they spoke Italian and was “forced” to learn or just not know what was going on. I was an average C student at best. Somehow I was able to communicate and say what I needed to after 3 1/2 months and kept progressing. Had to share that.. now going to listen to the video :)❤
I had a neighbour of my age. She was deaf from birth but could speak sign language for hearing people, my native language and 2 foreign languages I also had to learn as part of national curriculum. Her pronunciation was excellent, the intonation and emphasis natural - her lip reading was so excellent you wouldn't suspect she is deaf.
My own experience is different. I was teaching beginner children and adults in part-time classes and the children were definitely learning faster! The adults didn't any advantage to over the children to compensate - they had no idea of how their own language works (so explaining grammar in their own language only confused them further) whereas the children overcame the "topsy-turvy" grammar with minimal or no explanation, simply by modelling. I have also taught English to two adults in their twenties, who sat all day in the classroom with grade one. One of them could speak simple phrases but could not write and the other could only say yes and no. She was also illiterate in her own language. The adult that could speak some had slightly better understanding or explicit grammar instruction (while the children were working on their sums) but was hardly any better better at retaining vocabulary, even though she could write them down once she learned to write the alphabet. The illiterate woman, on the other hand, found it almost impossible to learn how to draw any letters, because she had never owned a pencil. Neither had the children, but they did learn to write letters much faster. It sounds to me that the research about adults learning vs children isn't as much about true neuroplasticity but was heavily influenced by educational and cultural background. Also, Dutch is very close to English to begin with, so it is fair to assume a Dutch person would find it much easier time to learn to sound like a native than one with a very different set of phonemes. Edit: I rarely slow down my speech when I speak to the kids (I naturally speak fast), but I do slow down considerably when talking to an adult esl speaker. The kids I teach are NOT in English speaking environment all day, but they study their native language for 4 hours, which leaves 3 hours for Chinese (one hour) and sports and swimming 4 hours per week. Including breaks when they can choose to speak whatever language they wish, the kids get only about 2.5 hour more tuition in English than their parents studying in part-time classes.
I'm also curious about what someone told me. He was a native Spanish speaker but became an English teacher in the U.S. You are covering my question right now. Pronunciation. lol
The big difference is, kids are willing to learn, adults aren't. We also have the pressures of life bearing down on us and no one to practice the language with.
I never really thought that learning a language young was about speed. it's more about how proficient and fluent they would end up being if they are taught at a point where the language centers of the brain are still developing. with a second language, adults often have to go through a translation phase to being it into their daily speaking language. whereas if the language is taught young enough, they can essentially skip the translation phase of using that other language
More plasticity and less information stored compared to adults. I still think kids have an advantage, might be minimal but it is easier for them. I lived it myself. At 9, I learned English within a 1 year.
Yeah, same. I'm willing to bet that kids have an easier time learning a language if you consider the ratio of how fluent they are in their first language to that of the second Ie. Let's say a 4 year old has mastered 5% of their native language. They can probably reach 5% fluency in a second language very quickly. On the other hand a 10 year old may have mastered 70% of their first language, and it could very well be harder for them to reach 70% fluency in their second language. All of this does lead me to wonder how learning multiple languages impacts a child's overall ability to master their native language or both languages. I recall hearing from teachers who worked at schools with frech immersion classes that the kids taking most of their classes in French struggled with their English literacy classes. Humans kind of suck at doing multiple things at once, and I wonder if the same applies to languages. And how learning multiple languages at the same time could affect a child's ability to succeed in the rest of their studies.
Also, it is a well known fact that children establish new neural connections much faster than adults, but also lose the connections faster. Adults establish them slower, but also lose them slower.
Language is an expression of concepts and ideas. The previous knowledge of those concepts and ideas allows for connecting unknown words to them easier than if both the word and idea had to be learned. Kids tend to be less analytical than adults. They make connections between ideas and things like words more readily, without translating in the process. *Adults can do this too.*
I happen to be bilingual from a very early age (0-5). I learned to speak in english since I was in America. When my family moved to Germany I initially refused to speak german. I understood completely what I was told in german, but would only answer in english. My adult brain reframed that as “Heck, I just learned one language and now you want me to learn a completely different language? F*** you.” I was always able to communicate in somewhat simple english after that, but I had to make a serious effort to expose myself to spoken and written english to regain fluency (roughly around age 10 forward). Today, let’s say in my midlife (I ain’t telling you my age. ;) ) I can comfortably switch back and forth, and occasionally if you ask me to repeat myself, I am unsure which language I actually spoke in the first place (if the person I spoke to is also fluent in both languages.) I still favor english, if I can, which may seem weird, considering that I live in Germany. 😀
Did the adults know that the experiment would compare them to children? Because there's a kind of underdog effect which can affect the results: if you think you're expected to be better than your opponent, then you're likely to worry about the embarrassment of losing; whereas if you're the underdog, you have no reputation to lose, so you can relax and take more risks.
Adults usually have less time to spend on a second language, and it's usually less a matter of survival or even functioning. Some languages are just really hard. I've been working on Mandarin for 7 years since I was 50, now I'm up to Peppa Pig in Chinese level.
The same with me, Chinese is very hard and besides, the Chinese teachers are not aware of how different the phonetic system is (besides the tones). The first words we learn "hello" are presented as forth tone + forth tone and then they say "hello" as second tone + low tone. As a beginner i thought that there was something wrong with my brain.
@@mig7287 Yes, when you have two characters with particular tones, when you combine them they can blurred in a particular way within one word, and over the course of a sentence the tones can be adjusted further. As Daven said in the video, sounds are one thing children have a big advantage on. Maybe "old folk" are better at picking up the logic and composition of a new language, but pronunciation and listening is harder.
This is an interesting video and it compiles a lot of good arguments I've heard before but it does kind of suffer from a bit is a misunderstanding though. When people say things like I wish I'd learned as a child because children learn languages more easily than adults or children learn languages faster, they might be incorrect about the absolute speed of learning but they aren't incorrect that children don't *perceive* themselves as having to work anywhere nearly as hard to learn a second language, to the point that a lot of bilingual households think of it almost as gifting their child a _free_ language. It reminds me of the arguments that the RUclips Channels focussed on knife sharpening have about whether those pull through knife sharpeners actually sharpen your knives or whether they just make it easier to cut things. As if "Making it easier to cut things" isn't most people's definition of sharpening. It really seems like a lot of science is going into proving something wrong that's not really the crux of what it is the people sharing the myth actually believe, which is that kids, living in bilingual households, and having all the learning advantages of childhood *effectively* get their second language for free, even if it doesn't come with full mastery or the ability to really articulate the rules of the language.
To add to that also that the adult who learned as a child doesn't remember the work that went into it. So it's partially the adult lamenting they have to do the work, as you said instead of getting it for "free", even though it wasn't free. They just can't remember. BUT this has been taken out of context such that the general perception from most is that kids learn languages faster / better, when it's not actually the case. - Daven
@TodayIFoundOut I thought of that but my anecdotal experience having a lot of nieces and nephews is that they generally actually aren't working as hard, the adults around them are. Constantly talking aloud around them, throwing out educational tidbits about language they wouldn't share with adults learning it as their second, asking questions to test their abilities, encouraging them to immerse themselves further through media and spending time around other speakers. They do forget how hard their brains were working but they also have much harder working teachers than most adults will ever find who live in their house 24/7
I suspect that a massive contributing factor would be immigrants children are exposed to the new language more than their parents. It's common to see immigrant adults socialising within their own minority. Where the children are the complete opposite.
In my experience, while kids don't learn languages faster than adults, starting kids in immersion for kindergarten will make it easier for them to learn the language. Even though they might not learn faster, they can be taught a lot of the language through games and normal elementary schoolwork they'd be doing anyway. The older kids are also less likely to actually expend any effort for their language class, and much more likely to feel like an idiot singing the rainbow song in high school.
I think most people just forget how to learn once they leave school and aren't forced to do so anymore. And when they try and realize that it's difficult, they give up easily because it reminds them of those school days. They just aren't putting in the effort.
As if to demonstrate how entrenched this myth actually is, the script for the ad-read emphasises how it helps you learn "similar to how kids learn." In a video telling us that adults actually learn faster than kids.
Yes, I grew up with English and German from my parents, and later in college. Well, they say bi-linguals are less likely to get age related dementia, which I can say being over 80. 😅
I have known several friends who raised their children in a bilingual home environment, but the children have never become equally fluent in both (without additional work as adults in one language). The issue here appears to me to be that, while they may have a solid 50/50 home environment, as soon as they step out the door, they will find themselves almost exclusively in an environment in which only one of the languages is spoken regularly, they go to school in that language, and radio, television, everything around them tends to be in that one language. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I know there are schools that specifically teach courses in both languages to compensate for this. I just believe that people who think that speaking two languages at home will automatically result in offspring who are equally fluent in those languages are a bit naive.
It depends on how the language is being learned. By the time a child is 5 years old they are already speaking a language fluently. Yet, a high school and college student who tries to learn a language in the same amount of time is not speaking it fluently. The difference is, the child is learning to speak, not at first to write. The student is trying to learn how to write and the grammar of the language, which is the wrong way about it. Speaking ought to come first, then grammar and writing.
Yuta (Japanese language learning channel) insisted that studies showed implicit acquisition is essential while explicit acquisition is virtually useless.
simon I am always amazed how much you change when you stop using keeps, but aren't the side effects of using it, like losing your accent, a bit too much?
As an adult who's learning languages I can confirm that I mostly consume content in English, just because I can already easily find English language content. I also find it weird that they'd compare Dutch and English instead of some more different languages where adults didn't grow up watching subtitled English content and they can't intuit a lot of the language from their native language.
I'm sure that part of why the myth exists is that people who learn multiple languages as children and retain them into adulthood have had significantly longer to develop those skills (with the advantages mentioned at the end of the video to really polish their abilities). I also wonder how the study results would change if the kids/adults were graded to reflect how well they developed linguistic skills in the new language comparison to their fluency level in their mother tongue. I would imagine that it's possible that children may have an advantage if you factor that ratio into account. (Ie, a 4 year old may be able to reach equal levels of fluency in two languages very quickly, where it would be a real slog to master a second language at an equivalent level of your native language as an adult. It would be interesting to see how the ratio might change over time. I've studied a couple languages, and haven't become fluent in any of them. Thinking and speaking in English feels automatic in the same way breathing does, and it's hard to imagine ever being able to do that in a different language. I can understand a fair amount and speak/write simple things, but my brain basically makes the screeching noises of a dialup internet connection in process every time.I swear the struggle is almost audible, even to those in the room with me.
You don't need to be fluent in a language but learning it good takes effort. If you want to be fluent and you're an adult you need to work hard at it and listen closely. Native speakers can still catch you out.
Isn’t there an initial window of time where you are able to learn language, and if you don’t then you will never be able to learn more than basic words? How does that correlate with learning new languages at a later age
I’m not so sure. I picked up 4 languages before I was 12 just watching TV and being around people speaking the language. I never managed to learn any other languages properly after that. Looking at my own kids, they can understand 3 languages and speak two just by being exposed to them. No actual effort involved. I’m guessing the people writing these studies are proficient in learning new languages. That’s often enough the issue with all papers on teaching, learning or pedagogy. Papers on teaching mathematics are being written by mathematicians, not by people struggling with mathematics. Personally, I can’t learn any language in the classical way and all those fancy new methods don’t work either, I need to be immersed in the language to learn it. Constantly hearing it, trying to speak it, reading it and finally writing it. But looking at the studies, it looks like they are catered to the adult mind. Kids would struggle with the parameters set in their native language so naturally they are going to struggle in a foreign tongue. In my opinion, you should look at the ability to pick up the basics without formal instruction and teaching. I’ve noticed my kids can pick up the basics much faster than I can at my age, just by being around kids their own age whilst playing some games. Edit. I’m thinking it’s also down to the individual and how your brain functions. My dad had no issues with learning a new language with nothing but a dictionary and a textbook on grammar but he struggled with mathematics and physics. For me it has always been the other way around.
I wish I had learned Italian as a kid; not because it would have been "easier" but, rather, because I would now have been speaking it for about 40 years.
1:53 I know that the audience stats suggest that the audience is mostly male, but where my other ladies at? Are we melting off our own panties? Or are we using this to pick up other women? Both are solid options imo. I'm just curious.
Simon is in Prague. I'm Batman.... 😋 More on the back story of this channel and me here ruclips.net/video/762TDwQYNq8/видео.htmlsi=MF1b3pAri79Lq6YN :-) -Daven
Also, for kids that learn multiple languages simultaneously (say in a mixed household) does that count as 2 separate languages, or just 1 language just twice as large?
I'm not buying it because children have to learn a language in order to survive They learn based on need I've tried learning three different languages as an adult and it's a pain in the ass I study Latin in high school still don't get it. I don't see the point in 67 conjugations for one word.
I have heard that multilingual kids are at a higher risk to develop mental health issues later in life but I don't know what the validity of that claim is
This video is pure bs, I'm sorry. It takes less than a year for a 5-6 year old child to start speaking a second or third language fluently. Personal experience.
Adults can do it faster in that same year if putting in the same effort. :-) As outlined in the video. There have been countless studies on this. They all say the same thing. And for obvious reasons if you stop and think about it. Again, as all outlined in the video in great depth. :-) -Daven
@@TodayIFoundOut Thing is, the child doesn't make "effort". The learning happens naturally without any effort, that's why everyone says they have it easier. An adult would need to make a lot of concentrated effort to learn this the analytical way whereas children learn by just being talked to and engaged in a conversation. An adult *might* learn it in the same timeframe but will have to spend incomparable amounts of effort to do so, from learning all the grammar to trying to perfect the pronunciation, huge amounts of effort. Hence "harder".
My Daughter just turned 3 and learned basic english as second language in 5 Months to a level beyond B2 i would assume. I believe a grown up can do that too..but... lets see if you can beat the crotch gobling in time spent... now of to see this video and let me convince otherwise
Can you discuss politics, career, personal finances, cultural norms, or book recommendations with her? Because that's the definition of what a B2 speaker can do.
@vytah B2 is definately wrong/B1 maybe?... i thought that was C-Level. Forming full sentences almost at the same level as in native tongue. My point is I can speak with her in English and have conversations better than with usual grown ups learning a language for 1.5 to 2 years. The mistakes she does are different from the adult learners. What I mean is the level of coversation and fluidity is above what grown ups seem to reach after more than twice the time, ofc lacking vocabulary for grown up things....
@@Christian-ev1zu CEFR levels do not measure fluidity, they measure which tasks the speaker can perform. For that reason, they're useless for gauging skills of native or near-native speakers, like your daughter. They were designed to rank potential employees, not children.
i learnt the entier spanish langage with the words [como ti llamas] i speak it fluantly ... i have dislexia so cant spell in any langage.... pero mi espanole es de puta madre. por la mioria de cosas. encluso escriber un poco aki. entose la mas inportante para aprender un otra idioma, es tiener un verdadero deseo de aprender.
Immersion is still really important, and even better from people talking how people of a given region / language actually talk. Which is what the sponsor offers in an entertaining way. It's just best to combine both the explicit instruction / learning and this style that kids tend to do it in. :-) Both combined are the fastest way which is in part why adults win. :-) We are so much better at the former. Kids for various reasons have some advantages on the latter. But even there, adults have some advantages. All as noted in the video. :-) But the point being, the sponsor of this one offers a good tool for the immersion side of learning. :-) -Daven
My 7 years old daughter speaks 3 very different languages fluently and, most importantly, with perfect native pronunciation. She never "studied" any of them and learned by simply being around and trying to talk to an adult that had mastery of the 2 foreign ones (the other 1 she learned from parents naturally). As an adult, it took me at least 20 years (and I'm still learning here and there) to learn 1 foreign language (English) using the same "submersion" method that children naturally go through. Something tells me the author of this video doesn't have kids (and calls them parasites, lul) and thus isn't aware of how children learn things (naturally, on their own).
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I love throwing insults to people in Klingon 🤣
As someone who started self-studying Japanese four years ago at the age of 37, this video made me feel much better about my chances of really being able to understand the language one day!
English to Japanese is a BIG jump, though.
Japanese is currently my 4th-best language. A distant 4th. And I suspect it'll get passed by every new European language I pick up.
Good luck!
@ it’s definitely one of the hardest languages I could’ve picked for a second language! But also very fun, especially when I can understand things. Four languages is awesome! Good luck in all your future studies!
すごい！日本語は楽しいと思う
"That is, after all, the whole point of this channel: smug superiority"
Appreciate the honesty, and one more reason I am righter than my friends: I only learn thing from YT channels that exist provably for this very reason 😁
I don't need the channel to show my smug superiority. I know that I am naturally superior to the rest of the world!😉
@kirinrias6912 That's the spirit! 😋 -Daven
@@TodayIFoundOut the main problem is rather to keep all my glory in check so that these pesky mortals are able to endure my presence. haa.. sometimes life is really exhausting😋
ps: I love your humor in the videos
Thanks! :-) -Daven
One huge advantage thar kids have over adults is the lack of fear and/or embarrassment that comes with making mistakes in language learning. I've known so many students do anything not to have to read out in front of the class for fear of being laughed at.
Also they get forced into the discipline of language learning by their parents and schools. For most adults, learning a language is like going to the gym. People start it, but then life gets in the way and they lack the motivation to force themselves to do it.
Yep, we mention this briefly near the end of the video. The older you get, the more self conscious and self aware about sounding stupid. :-) -Daven
They also have the benefit of time and fewer distractions.
Not only that but also the expectations are not as high so we believe that they learn faster
I beg to differ on that, I remember being terrified of being asked questions in primary school, one of my teachers recognised this and would deliberately call on me, I'd be humiliated as i hated being the centre of attention. She would push it a bit harder.
Thinking about it now as an adult, she may have been trying to break that fear of attention in me, but I can tell you now, children have humility and fear of failure just like any adult. The fear of failure and humility is apart of our automatic fight or flight response.
I started studying German in the 6th grade and continued through my sophomore year of college (although by the time I got to college I was fluent and in German literature classes). Once I reached a certain level, my ability to speak, read and write improved exponentially. Of course my mastery of the English language had matured as well. I had the confidence to blurt out complex sentences without thinking. As in any language, my vocabulary grew by inferring the meaning of an unknown word by the context of the sentence. These are all things that happen with maturity. I knew I was fluent when I dreamed in German (that was weird the first time). The one thing that confounded me was the articles. Why would the word for girl have a neutral article, but the word for boy have a masculine one?
Sadly, it’s a use it or lose it skill and I’d be hard pressed to get myself to a bathroom now. Hopefully, it’s like riding a bicycle and the neural connections are just dusty. Do you have any studies on that? 😂
Finally, do you hate kids or was that just trash talking because we were in competition with them? You didn’t miss a chance!
(from a German teacher) You haven't lost the skills -- they're just hiding. Although it takes time and effort (both of which adults often sorely lack) to recover, it is possible. Give yourself a week or so "in the field," and you'll find that fluency comes back rather quickly. Viel Spaß und viel Glück!
16:58 I would imagine that this age range of second-language learners doing better than their parents has a TON to do with being in school actively learning the new language, learning grammar explicitly, and learning other subjects IN that new language. Another contributing factor could be that school children can be really mean and the motivation to blend in with everyone else is much stronger.
Whereas their parents are far more likely to work and be surrounded by other immigrants who speak their native language, thus not even necessarily needing to practice their new language regularly, much less do things like learn other complex topics like mathematics in that new language.
Guess I should have kept watching since that’s basically what is said.
Funny how a video about language misuses apostrophes in the text slides. ("The adult's were faster than the kid's" etc.)
I’d chalk that up to being a device auto correct/editing issue versus the poster not understanding how to use possessive and plural nouns
Spelling errors in other places as well. If you're going to make a video about language, please proofread before publishing.
My thoughts exactly! Nor would I be so absolutely certain that the poster understands how to use possessive and plural nouns correctly. You see these errors a lot.
His point that people will not correct your mistakes in person, but just make one on line and watch them jump on it, was amusing in this context! 🙂
Unless that was how they were spelled in the original documents.
Besides the phonemes, there can be tonal issues as well. As a speaker of a tonal language, I've seen many examples of adult just not hearing the difference in tones, where kids still haven't filtered out that aspect yet.
At 16 I was sent to Bosnia in a community where they spoke Italian and was “forced” to learn or just not know what was going on. I was an average C student at best. Somehow I was able to communicate and say what I needed to after 3 1/2 months and kept progressing. Had to share that.. now going to listen to the video :)❤
i was in the tongue taste test thing... i said i could taste the sugar cube no matter where i put it... teacher said i was wrong
Went through the same thing. Of course, the same teacher thought that planets being 'in alignment' meant they were in the same orbit.
I had a neighbour of my age. She was deaf from birth but could speak sign language for hearing people, my native language and 2 foreign languages I also had to learn as part of national curriculum. Her pronunciation was excellent, the intonation and emphasis natural - her lip reading was so excellent you wouldn't suspect she is deaf.
One of the things that I love about Daven (and can relate to) is his distain for children.
My own experience is different. I was teaching beginner children and adults in part-time classes and the children were definitely learning faster! The adults didn't any advantage to over the children to compensate - they had no idea of how their own language works (so explaining grammar in their own language only confused them further) whereas the children overcame the "topsy-turvy" grammar with minimal or no explanation, simply by modelling. I have also taught English to two adults in their twenties, who sat all day in the classroom with grade one. One of them could speak simple phrases but could not write and the other could only say yes and no. She was also illiterate in her own language. The adult that could speak some had slightly better understanding or explicit grammar instruction (while the children were working on their sums) but was hardly any better better at retaining vocabulary, even though she could write them down once she learned to write the alphabet. The illiterate woman, on the other hand, found it almost impossible to learn how to draw any letters, because she had never owned a pencil. Neither had the children, but they did learn to write letters much faster.
It sounds to me that the research about adults learning vs children isn't as much about true neuroplasticity but was heavily influenced by educational and cultural background. Also, Dutch is very close to English to begin with, so it is fair to assume a Dutch person would find it much easier time to learn to sound like a native than one with a very different set of phonemes.
Edit: I rarely slow down my speech when I speak to the kids (I naturally speak fast), but I do slow down considerably when talking to an adult esl speaker. The kids I teach are NOT in English speaking environment all day, but they study their native language for 4 hours, which leaves 3 hours for Chinese (one hour) and sports and swimming 4 hours per week. Including breaks when they can choose to speak whatever language they wish, the kids get only about 2.5 hour more tuition in English than their parents studying in part-time classes.
I'm also curious about what someone told me. He was a native Spanish speaker but became an English teacher in the U.S. You are covering my question right now. Pronunciation. lol
The big difference is, kids are willing to learn, adults aren't. We also have the pressures of life bearing down on us and no one to practice the language with.
I never really thought that learning a language young was about speed. it's more about how proficient and fluent they would end up being if they are taught at a point where the language centers of the brain are still developing. with a second language, adults often have to go through a translation phase to being it into their daily speaking language. whereas if the language is taught young enough, they can essentially skip the translation phase of using that other language
More plasticity and less information stored compared to adults. I still think kids have an advantage, might be minimal but it is easier for them. I lived it myself. At 9, I learned English within a 1 year.
Yeah, same.
I'm willing to bet that kids have an easier time learning a language if you consider the ratio of how fluent they are in their first language to that of the second
Ie. Let's say a 4 year old has mastered 5% of their native language. They can probably reach 5% fluency in a second language very quickly.
On the other hand a 10 year old may have mastered 70% of their first language, and it could very well be harder for them to reach 70% fluency in their second language.
All of this does lead me to wonder how learning multiple languages impacts a child's overall ability to master their native language or both languages.
I recall hearing from teachers who worked at schools with frech immersion classes that the kids taking most of their classes in French struggled with their English literacy classes. Humans kind of suck at doing multiple things at once, and I wonder if the same applies to languages. And how learning multiple languages at the same time could affect a child's ability to succeed in the rest of their studies.
Also, it is a well known fact that children establish new neural connections much faster than adults, but also lose the connections faster. Adults establish them slower, but also lose them slower.
Language is an expression of concepts and ideas. The previous knowledge of those concepts and ideas allows for connecting unknown words to them easier than if both the word and idea had to be learned. Kids tend to be less analytical than adults. They make connections between ideas and things like words more readily, without translating in the process. *Adults can do this too.*
I happen to be bilingual from a very early age (0-5). I learned to speak in english since I was in America. When my family moved to Germany I initially refused to speak german. I understood completely what I was told in german, but would only answer in english.
My adult brain reframed that as “Heck, I just learned one language and now you want me to learn a completely different language? F*** you.”
I was always able to communicate in somewhat simple english after that, but I had to make a serious effort to expose myself to spoken and written english to regain fluency (roughly around age 10 forward).
Today, let’s say in my midlife (I ain’t telling you my age. ;) ) I can comfortably switch back and forth, and occasionally if you ask me to repeat myself, I am unsure which language I actually spoke in the first place (if the person I spoke to is also fluent in both languages.)
I still favor english, if I can, which may seem weird, considering that I live in Germany. 😀
Did the adults know that the experiment would compare them to children? Because there's a kind of underdog effect which can affect the results: if you think you're expected to be better than your opponent, then you're likely to worry about the embarrassment of losing; whereas if you're the underdog, you have no reputation to lose, so you can relax and take more risks.
And yet they try to force second languages to children in schools that they never learn.
Adults usually have less time to spend on a second language, and it's usually less a matter of survival or even functioning. Some languages are just really hard. I've been working on Mandarin for 7 years since I was 50, now I'm up to Peppa Pig in Chinese level.
The same with me, Chinese is very hard and besides, the Chinese teachers are not aware of how different the phonetic system is (besides the tones).
The first words we learn "hello" are presented as forth tone + forth tone and then they say "hello" as second tone + low tone. As a beginner i thought that there was something wrong with my brain.
@@mig7287 Yes, when you have two characters with particular tones, when you combine them they can blurred in a particular way within one word, and over the course of a sentence the tones can be adjusted further. As Daven said in the video, sounds are one thing children have a big advantage on. Maybe "old folk" are better at picking up the logic and composition of a new language, but pronunciation and listening is harder.
This is an interesting video and it compiles a lot of good arguments I've heard before but it does kind of suffer from a bit is a misunderstanding though.
When people say things like I wish I'd learned as a child because children learn languages more easily than adults or children learn languages faster, they might be incorrect about the absolute speed of learning but they aren't incorrect that children don't *perceive* themselves as having to work anywhere nearly as hard to learn a second language, to the point that a lot of bilingual households think of it almost as gifting their child a _free_ language.
It reminds me of the arguments that the RUclips Channels focussed on knife sharpening have about whether those pull through knife sharpeners actually sharpen your knives or whether they just make it easier to cut things. As if "Making it easier to cut things" isn't most people's definition of sharpening. It really seems like a lot of science is going into proving something wrong that's not really the crux of what it is the people sharing the myth actually believe, which is that kids, living in bilingual households, and having all the learning advantages of childhood *effectively* get their second language for free, even if it doesn't come with full mastery or the ability to really articulate the rules of the language.
To add to that also that the adult who learned as a child doesn't remember the work that went into it. So it's partially the adult lamenting they have to do the work, as you said instead of getting it for "free", even though it wasn't free. They just can't remember. BUT this has been taken out of context such that the general perception from most is that kids learn languages faster / better, when it's not actually the case. - Daven
@TodayIFoundOut I thought of that but my anecdotal experience having a lot of nieces and nephews is that they generally actually aren't working as hard, the adults around them are. Constantly talking aloud around them, throwing out educational tidbits about language they wouldn't share with adults learning it as their second, asking questions to test their abilities, encouraging them to immerse themselves further through media and spending time around other speakers.
They do forget how hard their brains were working but they also have much harder working teachers than most adults will ever find who live in their house 24/7
I suspect that a massive contributing factor would be immigrants children are exposed to the new language more than their parents.
It's common to see immigrant adults socialising within their own minority. Where the children are the complete opposite.
In my experience, while kids don't learn languages faster than adults, starting kids in immersion for kindergarten will make it easier for them to learn the language. Even though they might not learn faster, they can be taught a lot of the language through games and normal elementary schoolwork they'd be doing anyway. The older kids are also less likely to actually expend any effort for their language class, and much more likely to feel like an idiot singing the rainbow song in high school.
I think most people just forget how to learn once they leave school and aren't forced to do so anymore. And when they try and realize that it's difficult, they give up easily because it reminds them of those school days. They just aren't putting in the effort.
As if to demonstrate how entrenched this myth actually is, the script for the ad-read emphasises how it helps you learn "similar to how kids learn." In a video telling us that adults actually learn faster than kids.
Yes, I grew up with English and German from my parents, and later in college.
Well, they say bi-linguals are less likely
to get age related dementia, which I
can say being over 80. 😅
I'm convinced the whole point of this video is to get a chance to insult children as much as possible. xD
The new hair really switched up your look.
Put an adult in a country where nobody speaks their native language and theyll pick up that new language real fast.
Define "first language." Is being raised in a solid 50/50 bilingual home count as 1 big first language or 2 "first languages"
I have known several friends who raised their children in a bilingual home environment, but the children have never become equally fluent in both (without additional work as adults in one language). The issue here appears to me to be that, while they may have a solid 50/50 home environment, as soon as they step out the door, they will find themselves almost exclusively in an environment in which only one of the languages is spoken regularly, they go to school in that language, and radio, television, everything around them tends to be in that one language. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I know there are schools that specifically teach courses in both languages to compensate for this.
I just believe that people who think that speaking two languages at home will automatically result in offspring who are equally fluent in those languages are a bit naive.
Well, you just had to destroy my excuse for avoiding to learn a certain language, didn't you 😫
Guess I'll have to get busy now 😋
It depends on how the language is being learned. By the time a child is 5 years old they are already speaking a language fluently. Yet, a high school and college student who tries to learn a language in the same amount of time is not speaking it fluently. The difference is, the child is learning to speak, not at first to write. The student is trying to learn how to write and the grammar of the language, which is the wrong way about it. Speaking ought to come first, then grammar and writing.
Yuta (Japanese language learning channel) insisted that studies showed implicit acquisition is essential while explicit acquisition is virtually useless.
simon I am always amazed how much you change when you stop using keeps, but aren't the side effects of using it, like losing your accent, a bit too much?
As an adult who's learning languages I can confirm that I mostly consume content in English, just because I can already easily find English language content.
I also find it weird that they'd compare Dutch and English instead of some more different languages where adults didn't grow up watching subtitled English content and they can't intuit a lot of the language from their native language.
Wait a second an englishman with glasses always spoke on this channel. He is not dead is he?
They both have done it for a while. Simon is good but on vacation.
@@jacksonfondren1656 That is good to know.
@@InvasionAnimationThe guy in this channel started it and writes the scripts.
We all want Simon but they force this dude on us for whatever reason from time to time.
dont worry its still simon, keeps is just working while showing some side effects
Nobody roasts children like TodayIFoundOut 🔥
I'm sure that part of why the myth exists is that people who learn multiple languages as children and retain them into adulthood have had significantly longer to develop those skills (with the advantages mentioned at the end of the video to really polish their abilities).
I also wonder how the study results would change if the kids/adults were graded to reflect how well they developed linguistic skills in the new language comparison to their fluency level in their mother tongue.
I would imagine that it's possible that children may have an advantage if you factor that ratio into account. (Ie, a 4 year old may be able to reach equal levels of fluency in two languages very quickly, where it would be a real slog to master a second language at an equivalent level of your native language as an adult.
It would be interesting to see how the ratio might change over time.
I've studied a couple languages, and haven't become fluent in any of them. Thinking and speaking in English feels automatic in the same way breathing does, and it's hard to imagine ever being able to do that in a different language. I can understand a fair amount and speak/write simple things, but my brain basically makes the screeching noises of a dialup internet connection in process every time.I swear the struggle is almost audible, even to those in the room with me.
It always seemed to me that some people have a natural talent at languages.
Whether kids learn language grammar and vocabulary faster or slower, they definitely learn authentic pronunciation way, way faster.
Thanks ❤
How many kids do you have?
Three awesome daughters. :-) Kids are actually my favorite... 😋 -Daven
You don't need to be fluent in a language but learning it good takes effort. If you want to be fluent and you're an adult you need to work hard at it and listen closely. Native speakers can still catch you out.
Adults science not enough to understanding kids learning
Man idk im learning russian rn as a 34 year old and holy fuck it's not easy.
Russian is one of the hardest languages to learn as an English speaker. Learning languages in general is hard
Where is Simon?!?
NOT SIMON, I'M GONE
Hi GONE, I'm Daven. 😋
NOBODY CALLED YOU SIMON, CHILL OUT GONE
Mi esposa es mexicana y yo.. no. Gracias por su historia.
De nada :-) -Daven
Isn’t there an initial window of time where you are able to learn language, and if you don’t then you will never be able to learn more than basic words? How does that correlate with learning new languages at a later age
So three more things that some Noble prize winning genius got wrong. This list is getting long.
I’m not so sure. I picked up 4 languages before I was 12 just watching TV and being around people speaking the language. I never managed to learn any other languages properly after that. Looking at my own kids, they can understand 3 languages and speak two just by being exposed to them. No actual effort involved.
I’m guessing the people writing these studies are proficient in learning new languages. That’s often enough the issue with all papers on teaching, learning or pedagogy. Papers on teaching mathematics are being written by mathematicians, not by people struggling with mathematics. Personally, I can’t learn any language in the classical way and all those fancy new methods don’t work either, I need to be immersed in the language to learn it. Constantly hearing it, trying to speak it, reading it and finally writing it.
But looking at the studies, it looks like they are catered to the adult mind. Kids would struggle with the parameters set in their native language so naturally they are going to struggle in a foreign tongue.
In my opinion, you should look at the ability to pick up the basics without formal instruction and teaching. I’ve noticed my kids can pick up the basics much faster than I can at my age, just by being around kids their own age whilst playing some games.
Edit. I’m thinking it’s also down to the individual and how your brain functions. My dad had no issues with learning a new language with nothing but a dictionary and a textbook on grammar but he struggled with mathematics and physics. For me it has always been the other way around.
Everyone learns when exposed and surrounded. The challenge comes when it's not.
I wish I had learned Italian as a kid; not because it would have been "easier" but, rather, because I would now have been speaking it for about 40 years.
1:53
I know that the audience stats suggest that the audience is mostly male, but where my other ladies at?
Are we melting off our own panties? Or are we using this to pick up other women?
Both are solid options imo. I'm just curious.
15:30 oh you sweet summer child. that sort of biased assertion is made all the time in linguistic circles. (fmr military linguist here)
HUH???? Who is this?? Where is Simon?? ???
Simon is in Prague. I'm Batman.... 😋 More on the back story of this channel and me here ruclips.net/video/762TDwQYNq8/видео.htmlsi=MF1b3pAri79Lq6YN :-) -Daven
@@TodayIFoundOut ohhh Daven. So this is what you look like. Nice vid bud. Love from BKK
😃😃😃
What I learned from this: Daven hates kids
Or that Daven loves absurdist humor and ergo loves kids. 😋 -Daven
This doesnt look like that other guy. Maybe I woke up in a parallel universe.
Do those who grow up speaking more than one language pick up an additional language any faster?
Also, for kids that learn multiple languages simultaneously (say in a mixed household) does that count as 2 separate languages, or just 1 language just twice as large?
I'm not buying it because children have to learn a language in order to survive
They learn based on need
I've tried learning three different languages as an adult and it's a pain in the ass
I study Latin in high school still don't get it. I don't see the point in 67 conjugations for one word.
It's ma'am 😂😂😂
I have heard that multilingual kids are at a higher risk to develop mental health issues later in life but I don't know what the validity of that claim is
This video is pure bs, I'm sorry. It takes less than a year for a 5-6 year old child to start speaking a second or third language fluently. Personal experience.
Adults can do it faster in that same year if putting in the same effort. :-) As outlined in the video. There have been countless studies on this. They all say the same thing. And for obvious reasons if you stop and think about it. Again, as all outlined in the video in great depth. :-) -Daven
@@TodayIFoundOut Thing is, the child doesn't make "effort". The learning happens naturally without any effort, that's why everyone says they have it easier. An adult would need to make a lot of concentrated effort to learn this the analytical way whereas children learn by just being talked to and engaged in a conversation. An adult *might* learn it in the same timeframe but will have to spend incomparable amounts of effort to do so, from learning all the grammar to trying to perfect the pronunciation, huge amounts of effort. Hence "harder".
Didn't Simon already do a video about this?
DAVEN!
Hjominbonrun! 😋 -Daven
A crotch Goblin is a new one for me
My Daughter just turned 3 and learned basic english as second language in 5 Months to a level beyond B2 i would assume. I believe a grown up can do that too..but... lets see if you can beat the crotch gobling in time spent... now of to see this video and let me convince otherwise
Can you discuss politics, career, personal finances, cultural norms, or book recommendations with her? Because that's the definition of what a B2 speaker can do.
@vytah B2 is definately wrong/B1 maybe?... i thought that was C-Level. Forming full sentences almost at the same level as in native tongue. My point is I can speak with her in English and have conversations better than with usual grown ups learning a language for 1.5 to 2 years. The mistakes she does are different from the adult learners. What I mean is the level of coversation and fluidity is above what grown ups seem to reach after more than twice the time, ofc lacking vocabulary for grown up things....
@@Christian-ev1zu CEFR levels do not measure fluidity, they measure which tasks the speaker can perform. For that reason, they're useless for gauging skills of native or near-native speakers, like your daughter. They were designed to rank potential employees, not children.
i learnt the entier spanish langage with the words [como ti llamas] i speak it fluantly ... i have dislexia so cant spell in any langage.... pero mi espanole es de puta madre. por la mioria de cosas. encluso escriber un poco aki. entose la mas inportante para aprender un otra idioma, es tiener un verdadero deseo de aprender.
Kid don't have to pay bills, duh
Who is this guy? Wheres my Simon? 😢
Saying "crotch goblin" sounds so vile and offensive
145th
"Do Kids Really Learn Languages Faster Than Adults?"
without a doubt, yes.
So kids don’t learn faster but in your advertising you point out that Lingopie teaches you just the kids learn? Hmmmm
Immersion is still really important, and even better from people talking how people of a given region / language actually talk. Which is what the sponsor offers in an entertaining way. It's just best to combine both the explicit instruction / learning and this style that kids tend to do it in. :-) Both combined are the fastest way which is in part why adults win. :-) We are so much better at the former. Kids for various reasons have some advantages on the latter. But even there, adults have some advantages. All as noted in the video. :-) But the point being, the sponsor of this one offers a good tool for the immersion side of learning. :-) -Daven
My 7 years old daughter speaks 3 very different languages fluently and, most importantly, with perfect native pronunciation. She never "studied" any of them and learned by simply being around and trying to talk to an adult that had mastery of the 2 foreign ones (the other 1 she learned from parents naturally). As an adult, it took me at least 20 years (and I'm still learning here and there) to learn 1 foreign language (English) using the same "submersion" method that children naturally go through.
Something tells me the author of this video doesn't have kids (and calls them parasites, lul) and thus isn't aware of how children learn things (naturally, on their own).
So you like kids huh?
Please proofread your text slides before publishing a video about language. Spelling and punctuation errors all over the place.
Dude, your script writer *really* hates kids huh? lol good god, man…
Opposite. I love kids and have three of my own. But love absurd humor too. 😋 -Daven
Way too many epithets.
animals learn languages faster than them
Information- 9/10
Delivery- 2/10
Why are there so many derogatory comments about kids in this video?
Have you met kids? 😋 -Daven
Right, lmao.
@@TodayIFoundOut this
Because it’s funny. When you kids you’ll understand.
As a girl whose big, I say that season should include big girls too then. One season with short dudes. One season with big girls.
Please edit apostrophe mistakes…if you’re gonna be superior you should be…superior 🥸
We are the superiorest of superior's. 😋 Just wait until you hear me say nuclear. 😋 -Daven
@6:36 s/perameters/parameters/