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The 4090 is not sold out and it wasn't gamers that bought them. Those cards moved from the store shelf to the scalpers shelf and are still for sale. I don't think the card was well received and this could bite scalpers in the backside. You can still buy the cards online and they are trying to scalp them?
@@ragingmonk6080 they cant sell them. make an offer to a scalper for MSRP+tax(if applicable)+10 bucks for gas. i had three jump at the chance cuz otherwise they have to return them. They aren't going to lose money, but they aren't making any either. its over. GPU's sell out at launch, this isn't a new concept, ampere just created a unique 2 year scenario of hell, and we no longer inhabit that nightmare.
This. FUCKING THIS. THANK YOU. Can't count how many times I've remembered a sponsorship on a rando-ass youtube channel that I suddenly wanted to take advantage of and I can't find it ANYWHERE. Thank you for putting it on front street like this. Also my Vite Ramen is finally shipping! You know your channel is doing some work for them when they literally have a weeks-long backlog
Quick minor correction to Tom, may need to double check. AMD Mantle didn't really die, its whole purpose was to force Microsoft to restart Direct X12 development which MS abandoned since they were so focused on Xbox One which doesn't see as much advantages as PC with low level API. Once Direct X12 was started back up AMD gave Mantle to Kronos group and it was modified into Vulkan 1.0 (the name was chosen to be poetic, Vulcan god of fire/lava/magma, magma comes from the Earths mantle.) So technically speaking Mantle was a quiet success.
It's only a shame that games with it are not backwards compatible with Vulkan. I remember playing dragon age inquisition with insane frames despite the long loading times and I feel I'm missing a lot of the optimizations
Yeah I was about to say....Didn't Mantle become the foundation for Vulcan? Vulcan and DX12 are great to have around and Vulcan has a lot of promise. It seems when implemented well its very efficient.
Bulldozer is so bad that my old Core i7-4700MQ laptop chip feels like an Apple M1 in comparison. I did Cinebench R23 and it performs like a desktop Ivy Bridge Core i7-3770. Also faster than an i7-2600K without OC, just 35 watts and 3GHz lmao. But those desktop chips have basically twice the power consumption for the same perfomance. Haswell is legendary.
@@MooresLawIsDead You have to add Raptordriver and Zen4dozer fanatics. I can't wait for Apple M2 Ultra destroying both with efficency and CPU based Blender while using 10 times less power at half the clockspeed, no liquid cooling and no 1000 watt power supplies...
YES! Tom and Gordon took their time! I’m sure this was exhausting for you guys, and I’m so grateful to you for the quality content. Looking forward to this, big time!
@@ConsiderFirstCnE Don't know much about Tom's schedule but Gordon spends hours working on benchmarks and testing and doesn't get much sleep with all these products coming out. Don't you watch PC World? He was looking half dead when Ryzen 7000 came out from all the work he had to do and lack of sleep. Gamers Nexus talked about it too with all these launches and only having a few days to test and write scripts for review videos. There's so much data and numbers to deal with it can be tough to be accurate all the time especially when you have a short window of time to do all of the work in. This isn't just some chat about tech with your gaming buddies mate.
3.5 hours of one guy constantly saying how everything Nvidia and Intel does is a Huge Mistake!!! Hahaha the host of this show is a joke he should just be honest and admit he is AMDs unofficial media department hahaha some of his questions are insane if you transcribe them they are comical.
@@Aleph-Noll exactly! Nvidia is even limiting the 4090 stock just to clear the shitty 30 series which no one wants to buy right now because they are mostly still at or higher than original MSRP
I remember the old days, I was still a kid I remember going in the small shop, open the magazines that weren't sealed in a plastic folders with a CD with a demo of a game or a video of a new game that is coming out. It was really nice to read the Magazines
AMD did not shoot themselves with AM4. A LOT of people bought into AMD BECAUSE of AM4. Then they went from maybe 2700X to 5800X, giving AMD a second sale because of the upgradability. If not for AM4, they would have built an Alder Lake. The trouble right now is that people are waiting for 3D versions, and the old stock is winding down. But the old stock will be gone eventually and so it's up to deliver the 3D versions that gamer wants.
That's not the argument Gordon is making. He's saying it's a double edge sword for AMD to keep platforms existing for that long. A lot of AM4 users aren't going to upgrade to AM5 for a while, because of the options AMD gave them on AM4. Important note; not saying that what AMD did with AM4 is bad, it was a great deal for consumers. Just arguing on why what AMD did for AM4 will effect their sales, whenever it's time to move to a new platform.
Gordon, I'm a 68 year old gamer. I really need the $300 Air Jordans to keep up with all of the young bucks. I've got to beat them on style when gaming....LOL
Toms anti intel bias shines in this video, no matter how much he tries to claim otherwise with his 10-15 comments in the last handful of videos about "I don't like making negative videos, positive ones bring me more views". Hold yourself accountable man, yeah you are the content creator, but that's what you do, create content. People ARE going to call you out on it, being a silver bastion of justice against whoever you think is an evil company is going to hold you back (imo) They're a company. If you are on AMD's payroll, that would be one thing, but what is the motivation here? Lastly, ARC launched. It WILL sell out. I really don't know what is so hard to understand about this concept. They're a company selling a product is what the NVIDIA and AMD shills use, so now 80 billion is the new max revenue for what a company can make before youtubers are allowed to hold a grudge against a company? Treat them all equally. AMD, NVIDIA and Intel are all soulless pieces of garbage that have zero interest in moving technology forward. They are profit first, and nothing wrong with that, stop defending these pieces of trash.
@@raeferwilson2599 if you cant pick out the desperation in his voice, then I don't think I can help you understand. In this video alone he textbook went above and beyond to character assassinate a company, using evidence that other companies have worse histories for. How many times in this video alone, did he say "Intel is running out of money". That is tone deaf and ignorant in itself, and Gordon wasn't having any of it either. It's one thing to get along with the shills at HUB, they have proven it more so, but Gordon isn't going to go along with this garbage.
@@raeferwilson2599 dude he's always anti Intel....he's thinks Amd is this untouchable corporation. He even claimed zen 4 was selling well lol....or my favorite Alderlake is Intels bulldozer moment...that's a Moronic detached statement.
@@samwallace7341 when he sees enough of these comments, there will be a follow up to the "I'm being gaslight" and I cant wait to see how he spins this. Tom, focus on what you are good at, which is relaying information to the users... Your leaks aren't that legendary, and those that are trained to hear the different inflections, meanings, tones you use, it doesn't work... An army of fanboys is just that... My advice is to keep your eye on the prize, and not looking behind you at the holes you tripped in on the way. No-one actually cares, and if you want to prove you can be the tough journalist, prove it and ignore the trolls.
The episode is always as long as it needs to be :) FYI - on average it actually seems like the longer episodes get more views on MLID. I haven't done an exhaustive analysis to confirm if it's literally true, but plenty of the longer episodes vastly outperform the shorter ones...
@@MooresLawIsDead I'd think as the channel grows your retained audience knows what to expect, and are thereby more likely to increase the average watch time. It may slow the rate new viewers click the videos, but the high average watch time could be juicing the algorithm to counteract it
I'm 32 and instantly felt old when I saw his face hahaha. I remember reading his articles in the late 90s. This episode brought back some memories, like voodoo.
What a true ripoff. Nvidia just wants margins on the ampere cards but still.. they should release 4090 and hold off on the rest. The 12gb was nvidia showing their cards on an underhanded scheme.
I've got 4 PCs between me and my friends running on RX6000 series and they all run game great in comparison to RTX 3000. Little hiccups here and there with some new games at launch (cough BF2042) but all in all they are great.
Gordon!! One of my fav PC Space heroes! He doesn't hold hold back always a pleasure to listen to Gordon.. As a fun 'Old days story ,Somehow i conveinced my parents to buy me my first PC in 1991.. and that got me also in the PC world! ..though come to think of it back then.. it was gonna be either the PC purchase or a Kawasaki GPZ 250 and my parents instantly Chose 'away from the Motorbike! :)
I enjoyed you holding Gordon's feet to the fire on Intel arc. It really bothers me when Gordon trys to spin any negative aspects of Intel and Nvidia into a positive unrealistically.
I like how Gordon tried to pin him down on his Arc is dead and the dude waffled. I am still smarting about the prediction that a 4090 would be easy to buy. The B&H cards were glitched. Gordon keeps on pushing back on Tom’s false narratives (4090 is in stock) and Tom keeps denying reality.
AMD's Mantle is now Vulkan. The Kronos developers of Vulkan used mantle as the core of the APIs development. It became the best and most efficient Multi OS API in the world. DX12 is just a very bloated Vulkan that only Runs on Windows.
Gordon, you are wrong about 7950X, I run mine at 105w and its fast enough (95% perf 170w) and runs cool (33C) at the desktop and 60C max all core load.
Gordon said that we had a GPU Drought. That is WRONG!!! The proof is that Nvidia alone has, to their own addition, Warehouses full of 30 Series GPUs. What that means is they effectively gave 2 sh*ts about gamers and sold the absolute majority of their inventory to CryproBros. They HAD gpus that they wanted to sell for stupidly high prices to Crytobros ins tead of just releasing them to the regular gaming public. Now they hike the prices of their next gen stuff so they can get rid of their old crap at the cost of Nvidias regular customers wallets. At the end of the day, Nvidia Lied...again.
Mad props on getting The Great Gordon for a whopping 3.5hrs. I'm old school from the early 90s and he seriously is the goat. There's no one I hold more respect for even if I disagree with than GMU. The complication of judging Intel on whether or not they deliver on time, is not knowing _why_ different projects arrive late. Which obviously they're never going to share that information publicly. They aren't 1 team that works on project to project exclusively. Intel most likely cancels more projects than AMD carries out. They're a massive company with their hands in way too many kitchens and I think them cutting the fat is a good sign Pat is making decisions to make the company stronger. Is it the fab that's been holding all their teams up? TSMC has been slowing down on new breakthroughs and Intel looks to be catching up on that front. Regardless of sales Alder Lake absolutely delivered. Just like how Zen4 is now selling poorly AMD still delivered a great chip. It absolutely _was_ Intel's return to form cause you need to remember it's on a twice removed manufacturing node compared to AMD's. If Raptor Lake catches Zen4 that needs to be taken into account. Intel isn't hamstrung by TSMC being married to Apple and having to wait their turn on cutting edge nodes like AMD does. If TSMC stumbles just _once_ Intel will be all over AMD real fast cause Apple pays R&D, not AMD. AMD's biggest hurdle is the same as it's been for the last 5 years. _Supply._ They have to guess months in advance are they dedicating their wafer allotment to GPUs? CPUs? Enterprise? AMD just doesn't seem like their GPUs have ever been a front burner project. They have always been reactionary to Nvidia, never leaders, and that won't change until AMD gets serious about graphics over margins. This is why gamers have been so hopeful for Intel which is ironically far bigger than Nvidia, just because we want to see someone, for the love of God _anyone,_ pose a real challenge to Nvidia and their cocky attitude. You can't just get a technical 1080p win over Nvidia when these new GPUs are deep in only making sense for 4k territory. I mean some of these reviews I'm positive they were even CPU limited at 4k when you saw wonky scaling at different resolutions. Radeon needs to stop being "good enough." No one is paying 4 figures for a "good enough" GPU.
People aren't appreciating that maybe, just maybe, the 4080 12GB actually achieved what Nvidia wanted from it. By having it in there, as a listing in it's product stack, Nvidia have been able to put an additional $300 premium on the real 4080, that being the 16GB SKU. Without the 12GB 'patsy', they would have had a much harder time trying to justify a $1199 price tag on a xx80 series card. As for the 'ah but what about all the problems that it is causing for the AIB's? They wouldn't just throw their partners under the bus like that' reasoning that might follow a comment like this? Go ask EVGA about the disrespect Nvidia can quite casually throw at AIB's. This whole thing with the 'unlaunch' might very well be less mea culpa as it is, 'all part of the plan'.
No need to buy right now. Let AMD do its thing, watch the new and used ampere market. The BS games these companies play really only work in the absence of competitors.
this comment is so true, and i cant believe that it actually worked... basically everyone overlooked the 4090 16gb, especially after the 4080 12gb got unlaunched....
I was subscribed to Gamepro back in 95-96 and loved seeing tech get better even as just a console player, and when that new magazine came out of the mailbox wrapped in plastic every month, the wait was gratifying.
Man I love it when Gordon is a guest on shows. I have so many things I'd like to comment on, but I'll try to stick to the _"Will AMD go for mind share over maximum profits?" and _"How can AMD break Nvidia's Stranglehold on the GPU market?"_ side of things. First, they have to be within 10% of the performance of Nvidia. They need to be *SUBSTANTIALLY* less expensive on all their cards besides the top 2. Having Raytracing that is at least as good as Ampere along with the improved rasterization. FSR 2.0 needs to be implemented into essentially every popular game going back to 2019 or so. Taking the _"End users can just inject FSR 2.0 into any game that has DLSS or FSR 1.0."_ is a ridiculous way of doing business. 99% of end users will never change RAM or edit a .ini file, so expecting them to basically mod FSR 2.0 in is pretty darn pompous, and frankly sells their own software stack short. Lastly, they need to sponsor streamers, both large and small, to use their GPUs for a solid year. So many people, both young and old who aren't overly computer hardware _educated_ won't even consider AMD, regardless of reviews. Now I completely understand it when a Twitch _Dancer_ doesn't have a clue, but when someone with a million subs between RUclips and Twitch doesn't, whelp that's idiotic. if they are doing it solo then they should absolutely be familiar with the tools they are using, and if they are large enough to have a team, which I'd assume includes a tech person to take care of the stream particulars and an editor, they should absolutely be familiar with both companies, and even if AMD is behind in CUDA heavy workloads, they do pretty damn well in Davinci Resolve works impeccably with Zen and Navi. Actually, if I am not mistaken, the video, sound and streaming engineer for Gordon's own PC World uses an AMD setup, and it certainly wasn't because of cost. For strictly gaming, especially FPS games along with numerous AAA titles, the 6800XT and 6900XT are pretty darn good purchases for $500 and $700 respectively; or at least they would be if a new generation of cards wasn't in the process of launching. If they could get a couple dozen of the top 100 streamers, or 3 or 4 of the top 10 gaming streamers to take a year long sponsorship, then I'm pretty darn sure their market share would balloon *at LEAST* 10-15%. Whatever the case, without mining they are in trouble, as say what you will about miners, but just like commercial professionals, they knew their products, being quite educated about what they were spending tens of thousands to millions of dollars on. AMD is now left with a highly educated niche group of people who are still willing to buy their GPUs, along with parents who are grabbing an HP Omen or Dell _wtv_ for their kids to play Fortnite and Call of Duty on (heh, two games in which AMD certainly coesn't perform at it's best, but hey, the 66/00/50 at $275 when compared to an RTX 3050 will certainly have AMD coming out smelling like roses in most cases). AMD needs to get the average gamer, someone like _"Mr. Matty Plays"_ or _"Skill Up"_ to start using AMD. That type of Gamer. The ones who are just as likely to play _"War Frame"_ as they are to play an RTS or _"Plague's Tale"._ Unfortunately that market will not even give AMD a second look, regardless of how much they decrease the price; because they don't believe AMD can do the job. Skill Up is still using a 2080ti, so he's exactly the type of person you want to sponsor. I look at Nvidia and they gave full systems to *HUNDREDS* of streamers and content creators, some with as low as 300k YT subs. I was stunned to see some creators I'd never, ever have thought would get sponsorships thanking Nvidia profusely for their new 7900X/64GB DDR5 6kcL _GREAT/_ systems with a shiny new RTX 4090 in them. Hell, one of them was a bloody Xbox Series X/Gamepass Streamer! The guy uses a PC to stream from his Xbox, at least he did, as I assume he'll be using the PC to stream Gamepass games now. Apparently he has just over 100k YT subs, does two 15 minute vids per week along with copies of his streams to which he normally has 500 viewers for 5 hours or so two other days a week. Oh, he also co-hosts an Xbox podcast on a channel with 65k subs. If Nvidia is handing them out to people at that level...well let's just say AMD needs to be aggressive as heck. tl;dr: 20% Lower price than Nvidia at each tier, Raytracing at Ampere levels, get FSR 2.0 into every big new game from here on out and into the top 10 best sellers for each year dating back to 2019 if technically possible and sponsor streamers both kids and adults watch. They need to change the narrative on their GPUs. _"Bleh, their the cheap brand if you can't afford Nvidia. Their loud, hot, crash half the games on the market or run them way too slow compared to Nvidia. Their drivers are trash, they can't stream; they are just trash for _real_ gamers and creators!"_ Now none of that is true unless you just use Premiere and AutoCAD (and I still wouldn't call them "trash"), but until the masses hear it from some bloke playing Roblox they aren't going to believe it. They certainly aren't going to read all of this, never mind an entire article on Tom's or Tech Spot. Lol, even my tl;dr's are long as heck. I need an editor.
Well, DLSS3 and high refresh rates are really screwed by DP1.4. Like 1st when lack of DP1.4 was mentioned I thought like "Who the hell needs more then 120 FPS 4k now", yet DLSS3 can actually pump more. Basically from what I have seen its useless if you have lower then 80 real FPS. So lack of DP1.4 kinda hurts rly.
@@user-tn6tb2qh8d Well, 4090 is totally not for average gamers too and its not for me also. I only mean that claiming the ability to create a lot of frames and then having a limited ability to send them to a monitor (compression only) is weird.
I mildly disagree with Gordon talking about features on AM5 boards at $500. I have a $480 Asrock AM4 board that has 10Gbe and TB3. Asus made a similar priced AM4 board that had USB4 & 10Gbe as the platform was becoming EOL, and almost immediately discontinued it. Seeing $500 AM5 boards without those things is a bit of a red flag to me. Given the X570 ProArt's limited supply, I'm inclined to believe Asus just wanted to put those features at a much higher price tier for AM5. There are a handful of resellers with that X570 board for $200 over MSRP.
Rumor has it that Lovelace has been sitting on the shelf since the Samsung 8nm, it didn't scale up with it properly as it was an original tsmc 6nm design, and so nvidia threw together what we now know as the 30 series. if this is true the display 1.4 makes sense.
The major hindrance to AMD's 6000 series sales during the pandemic, was they didn't pre-order the supply needed to meet demand. the demand exceeded the supply they had, and the pandemic produced s bottle Neck that couldn't keep up. NVDA on the other hand had a much larger volume on hand.
17:17 Mantle was donated by AMD, to be used as the starting point for the Vulkan API. So, it's still very much alive today, it just has a different name and has greatly evolved.
I want to expound on this a little more. You have two similar yet distinctly different styles of tech RUclipsrs here. Gordon is correct BTW that large corporations tend to have fiefdoms. Great word! They are siloed and often the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing. It’s no wonder that Tom has some difficulty pinning down exactly what Intel is going to do, despite obtaining inside information. Still Tom is on the bleeding edge of where PCs are headed and the speculation is fun. It’s not wild speculation it’s informed but he can’t know the future with great certainty. Gordon certainly knows where we’ve been and that knowledge informs his insight into where we are now. Thanks for all the benchmarking BTW! The Nexus of these two styles were on display here and I found it very enjoyable! Someone should write a long form article about this…
44:24 This is SUCH a good point. I had this conversation with my wife last week. Fashion pricing has crawled into the tech space. People will spend $300 on Beats headphones that cost $15 to manufacture, when better products are a fraction of the price. Fashion pricing doesn’t make sense, because the price doesn’t match the quality of build or materials. Fashion prices match the name brand. Women don’t want Gucci purses because they are more functional, or have a superior build to other purses. They want Gucci purses so they can show off their Gucci to their friends that don’t have one. It’s all a status symbol.
Great podcast and I'm glad you guys took your sweet time with this one. Gordon is an amazing person to have in the industry. Just a few comments as I go along: Gordon with all respect, Apple NEVER admits fault. NEVER. They didn't change the butterfly keyboards out of benevolence, they did it because they got a class action for them. That's how Apple has worked for over 10 years now. Make a faulty design, get tons of customer complaints, ignore them and say "you're using it wrong", wait even longer, get a class action, put out a statement about a "small number of affected devices", finally change the design and drag out warranty replacements for so long that most people have long thrown out their faulty device and you've already released 2 new generations of products, which of course they're buying because what else would they use except Apple? I very much agree on the brand loyalty that Nvidia has. And I think that's because it's much harder to have achieved that consistent experience year after year in the past. We've seen that some old AMD architectures matured much better than Nvidia, so it's not like they were behind in raw silicon performance. They were behind in software and drivers. When you release a card that crashes the first 3 times you're running a game then the consumer will remember that. It doesn't matter if you've long fixed it. Brand loyalty means that there is an imaginary level of "insurance" that people are willing to spend more money on. In the CPU department this just isn't a thing really. There is basically nothing to compete on except raw performance. No drivers, no software features, no gimmicks. That's why buyers are much more willing to switch between the camps I think and why it's much easier for either company to bounce back. There is no Intel ecosystem that would prompt you to definitely buy the next Intel CPU. I also noticed over the years that so many consumers are drawn in by the marketing hype and make purchase decisions based on features they're never going to use. Nvidia has absolutely perfected that and many fanboys do their dirty work on forums and youtube comments. How many people do I see arguing over hardware encoders, like everyone is definitely going to stream their games all the time? Oh yeah I'm spending an extra 200$ because I might want to do it some time in the future, maybe. As you said, people want the shiny name. They want the Geforce experience. I uninstalled that crap the second they wanted me to create an account all those years ago and have never looked back.
Always refreshing to hear some of Gordon's takes-- especially considering he's a long-time veteran in this space. The episode was a long one, but a good one. Cheers!
1:08:13 When I was replacing my 4770K system, I was debating between an I9-9900k system or an X570 Zen 2 system. I ultimately went with the Zen 2 system because while I was not sure if the Zen 2 3800X was going to be better than the 9900K, I knew the AM4 platform had at least another generation of CPUs in it. Since then I've ended up getting a 5800X and a 5800X3D, as well as ending up replacing the motherboard due to a very irritating incompatibility with the first X570 board I got. Had I gone with the 9900K, I would likely still be on that CPU and trying to decide if this generation was worth an upgrade. If AM4 had not had such a long life cycle, I would not have taken the risk on Zen 2, and they would have lost all of those sales over the past few years.
I have now heard for the first time, directly from someone at Intel and involved in Arc, that Battlemage is planned to have some form of dedicated products. The comment from Raja on how great it will be as integrated for MTL might be the full truth tho.
I do find it funny that people expect Intel to essentially charitably donate money, keeping the money sink of a graphics division alive on life support at the cost if billions, just because they love gamers so much and want them to have good prices. What are these people smoking and where can I get some?
The point people have been making the whole time is that Intel doesn’t want to do this and will only keep going if they can make money from their graphics division in the foreseeable future, and that more vendors competing is innately good for consumers. Obviously this isn’t an act of charity.
You are thinking Intel is just here for gaming lol, they have server graphics ponte vecchio family and a much more better investment for them even if they pour in billions more as they offer both cpu+gpu combo for datacenters. They can make a cut down version of that for discrete graphics and can still survive since their primary revenue will be in datacenters
Thank you Gordon for exposing selfish individuals who don't even know they're selfish (also known as virtue signaling). "I want ARC to succeed, so I can buy NVidia card cheaper!" "I want AMD to succeed, so I can buy Intel CPU cheaper!" "Let *someone else* spend their money on other companies, *so I can get my shit cheaper* from the same monopolistic company that I supported forever."
Perhaps the 4080 12gb was done on purpose knowing that they will unlaunch it just to distract that the actual 80 class card was costing 1200. All attention has gone to the 12gb ignoring the 16gb clever.
Imo the 4080 16gb is also in a weird place since it’s close enough to price to the 4090 (if you are already spending 1100 1600 isn’t much more in the grand scheme) while being good bit behind the 4090
Honestly you’re right, how can you call this a Lauch when they have no stock on the shelves? Why is the supply so constrained in the 80 billion dollar company
There will always be those people that want to be on the bleeding edge of tech. But I think Nvidia sales will drop drastically this time around for the 40 series. Also a sizeable chunk in market share will also be lost if AMD are smart with their pricing and dont get greedy like their competition.
01:26:19 Core 2 was not 40% faster than Athlon 64. In a couple edge cases it got as high as 25%, but was more around 10-15% on average. AMD caught up entirely with Phenom II. They were overtaken again with Nehalem, and that's when AMD's disastrous decision to follow Intel's lead on Netburst (which lead to AMD's commanding lead for several years) lead to Bulldozer. It took Intel about five years to catch up with AMD after the Pentium 4 debacle (ironically by returning to an evolved Pentium 3 design, which is what Core 2 was), and it took AMD about five years to catch up after the Bulldozer debacle. Right now, it doesn't look like either company is going to make the same kind of mistake by attempting to radically shift the performance paradigm.
I guess AMD could have caught up faster than 5 years, if they had money. But their income was drastically reduced due to Intel's more than shady (I would call them illegal, but I don't remember them being convicted) practices, effectively pushing AMD out of the market during P4 times. Bulldozer was a bad design decision (AMD thought more things would be offloaded to the GPU, which was not happening at that time), but they simply did not have money to change their course.
I listened to the PC World Full Nerd with Usman and he didn't say the opposite, he talked about the problem with his executive source being slippery. What he said was similar with what was announced later on Arc future around Alchemist launch and doesn't say high end gaming cards. Specifically he believed Tom reported sources he heard, but he hadn't confirmation.
I was a big big fan of maximum pc. I remember the gun fight 90s with pentium vs athlon and ati vs voodoo vs riva tnt. I am a fan of Gordon and listen to his podcast every week. Good stuff!
The real problem’s are that MB vendors are removing basic shit from mid-tier and relegating it only to their “higher end” boards! I’m making the transition back to intel form my gaming pc until the X3D Ryzen 7000 CPU’s hit the market and it’s next to impossible to find a motherboard under 400$ on the z690 platform with something as simple as a debug display and onboard power/reset switch which is b.s, they can’t add a 1.40$ seven segment display and a 30 cent plastic button to a 350$ mb but they can load the board with useless RGB headers!
460 was such a great card. Back then 2 460 in SLI were faster then 480 and also cheaper. I had that for couple years and it was great. A great win for consumers and also pushed SLI for the masses. Now we live in different times and SLI is dead but boy did I felt great back then. Like 13 years ago.
When you ask someone a question, maybe let them answer without interrupting them? Also you spent half the ARC segment just trying to prove you are right, rather than listening to the guy.
littly timmy tommie is butthurt when its true hes fad about "effectively cancelled" this will age on his ego, gordon knew when not to stop and lil timmy squeal right
I'm a stereotypical Timmy with a 1080ti still holding out for exactly what you said @1:47:35. I just want a rock solid card for 4k gaming that can fit in my case and can punch above 60 on the average new release or consol port for a bit, that costs under $800.
What a great dialog guys - thanks! Interesting divergence (and concurrence!) of opinions! I do think it was intriguing how the assumption kind of was that branding matter more than reviewers - I think you tech journalists are selling yourselves short here; and the surprising difficulty of alder lake vs. zen 3 kind of proves that - quite a lot of people clearly really did take a look at alder lake's advantages, and decide it wasn't worth the platform cost - the kind of stance that indicates people are getting fairly nuanced and quite well-informed advice. I'm really interested how raptor lake vs. zen4 will turn out - will the cheaper platform (but now in Intel's hand's) win out again? Or will the promised am5 upgrade path lure most adopters? Will zen3 v-cache matter at all any more? Interesting times ;-).
Im suddenly reminded of my Maximum PC collection. Oh man those were the days. I remember the magazine shop was very happy to see me every time he sees me, he knows i'll buy a copy everytime.
Nice Move Tom to have Gordon Mah on. Motherboard makers are definitely gouging us. The Mobo Makers have already dropped their pricing to something more reasonable. It will drop more if they start to sweat.
The last time "Silicon gates" technology was used to scale-down to the next node was 45nm. That was about 15 years ago. Since then, each new node has required different dielectrics and conductor materials. That fundamentally changed the economics of silicon process technology, and Intel lost its lead (in the very thing it/Fairchild invented). TSMC saw an opportunity and the rest is history...
Perhaps the US market is different, but for the EU, the motherboard pricing problem is very real. The cheapest B660 board costs 103€, the cheapest B650 board is 213€. So, on top of DDR4 still being cheaper, there is an additional 110€ premium for the AM5 platform. That X670E from ASRock you have at 265 USD, that one is above 340€ here. The average user here does not pay more than 200€ for a board, so the cheapest AM5 option already exceeds that.
And the CPU is Expensive as well and Intel isnt BAD either. Agreed. Right now it doesnt really make much Sense. ppl are waiting right now for multiple Reasons.
The bigger story about the "Race to 1GHz" was that Intel had to recall their 1GHz and/or 1,13GHz Processors... But they also had some Issues with the i820 Platform... The MTH for example.
Amd had a 4yr roadmap bulldozer- excavator. They never announced anything was canceled but steamroller and excavator were low end because they were effective cancelled. It will be the same for the next 3-4yrs with intels graphics
In this episode you really sound like an AMD employee. On every ocassion you had argument "but AMD this, but AMD that". Guess they are always right... As for the rest. Its great to hear Gordon's opinion about PC market today. I`m building PC soon, and i still dont know if i will go with i7-13700k or R9-7900. I need a PC for FPGA compilation workloads and he gave me something to think about. If someone can give me info where can i find benchmarks for compilation (it needs to be FPGA. Its different workload than C for example), i will be very thankfull.
I'm glad Nvidia is in the market. But, I will almost always go with AMD as long as the price / performance is better for the tier of cards that I'm buying at.
Gordon, I don't know about you, but I have seen the numbers for the 13900K and for production work, for the 13900K to compete with the 7950X running with 176 Watts of power, you need to punt in about 340 Watts of power into it. So let's take a very practical scenario which we will simulate with CineBench R23. With my 7950X properly configured (according to a guide I wrote originally about three years ago for the 3000 series which is still valid for the 7000 series) I can run it at 5.35 GHz on all 32 threads with an Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 and the included offset mount all day where it reaches a maximum temperature of around 78 degrees Celsius and the temperature will stay there and get a CineBench R23 score of over 40,200. The other thing to consider is that at that level the fans on the radiator are still pretty much inaudible. Contrast this with a 13900K. As stated you can get a CineBench R23 score of over 40,000 with it, but at around 340 Watts of power input. So what will happen if you try to run it continuously? With any AIO what will happen is that the temp after the third or fourth loop of CineBench R23 your CPU will start to throttle at 100 degrees Celsius, and of course the performance will sink. With a custom loop you will only be delaying the inevitable by a relatively short time before there too the 13900K will throttle. Of course with the fans you will have to use, it will be anything but silent.
Is there any information as to why ATI doesn't yet fully support CUDA? Getting that support would allow a fair bit of market share to be taken from Nvidia.
There are 2 things, Nvidia probably not at all interested in selling CUDA license to AMD, and AMD not having enough budget to spend on something they don't know if it ever becomes profitable. They spend everything they have to as competetive as they can right now instead of maybe in 4 years Edit: I have read that CUDA works only on Nvidia cards because it is writen around Nvidia GPU drivers to work, so if thats true there you go.
If we take "you're getting last generation" to be an argument _against_ a 5800X3D/X570 build, then surely DDR4 can't also be an argument _for_ a Raptor Lake/Z790 build in the same context. Because there's no upgrade path for anything in that Raptor Lake build either - chip, socket and ram is end of the line - and you still "only" get PCIE4.0 storage, as with X570/B550.
The MoBo manufactures are definitely price gouging. The cheapest nastiest AM5 boards here in NZ cost more than a lot of high-end AM4 boards. The prices for equivalent models have doubled in most cases.
@@robertstan298 or you act as tho that shouldn't have been in the front of there thinking. Look at it this way since Zen 1 the price of the 6core has done nothing but go up. That's not good for consumers.
@@No-One.321 also considering how the packaging change with zen 3 raising the core count shouldn't be that difficult for the lower models and I'm not talking about double core count but adding 4 at the high end for example would give them the extra pump to destroy Intel at multitasking, I think Intel surprised AMD by raising the little core count in all their models. given them and edge that was unexpected until it was too late
I just want to chime in and say the article about the 7700X vs raptor lake, there is one thing missing. The 13600K and 13700K have vastly better lows than the 7700X. I want buyers to consider not just average FPS but also the lows.
Can't wait to see what laptops bring. Hopefully AMD becomes more competitive. Especially on low end. But then again, AMD is the company most against undervolting and tuning on laptops. Can't expect them to be competent on laptops given how they handled it this generation on laptops
AMD doesn't need to win with GPU's. AMD needs to consistently beat on value for at least 2 generations to get mind share, and build trust. That is what they did with Zen. Nvidia is handing them the ticket to do this. It will take until RDNA 5 to get to where they are with CPU's. But they are on the right track as long as they don't try to match pricing.
Tom, do you think Qualcomm could be a new contender for the GPU market. The CEO said on a podcast with Lexi Friedman that Qualcomm would produce one (probably for laptops to go with their CPUs) but it would still be a new competitor into the market
Intel has roughly a billion in cards tom. They WILL sell out. "Intel is running out of money". Holy crap, that isn't even worthy of a response. What did they do to you ? Are you all in on AMD stock or something? Like this is getting borderline obsessive here bud... This isn't a small amount, sure its not "Intel" revenue. But its also more than you can fathom, so its getting kind of old hearing you make these bold claims regarding billion dollar product lines.
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The 4090 is not sold out and it wasn't gamers that bought them. Those cards moved from the store shelf to the scalpers shelf and are still for sale. I don't think the card was well received and this could bite scalpers in the backside. You can still buy the cards online and they are trying to scalp them?
@@ragingmonk6080 they cant sell them. make an offer to a scalper for MSRP+tax(if applicable)+10 bucks for gas. i had three jump at the chance cuz otherwise they have to return them.
They aren't going to lose money, but they aren't making any either. its over.
GPU's sell out at launch, this isn't a new concept, ampere just created a unique 2 year scenario of hell, and we no longer inhabit that nightmare.
This. FUCKING THIS. THANK YOU.
Can't count how many times I've remembered a sponsorship on a rando-ass youtube channel that I suddenly wanted to take advantage of and I can't find it ANYWHERE. Thank you for putting it on front street like this.
Also my Vite Ramen is finally shipping! You know your channel is doing some work for them when they literally have a weeks-long backlog
The 5090 will outperform the 4090
we love Gordon
Quick minor correction to Tom, may need to double check. AMD Mantle didn't really die, its whole purpose was to force Microsoft to restart Direct X12 development which MS abandoned since they were so focused on Xbox One which doesn't see as much advantages as PC with low level API. Once Direct X12 was started back up AMD gave Mantle to Kronos group and it was modified into Vulkan 1.0 (the name was chosen to be poetic, Vulcan god of fire/lava/magma, magma comes from the Earths mantle.) So technically speaking Mantle was a quiet success.
It's only a shame that games with it are not backwards compatible with Vulkan. I remember playing dragon age inquisition with insane frames despite the long loading times and I feel I'm missing a lot of the optimizations
Yeah I was about to say....Didn't Mantle become the foundation for Vulcan? Vulcan and DX12 are great to have around and Vulcan has a lot of promise. It seems when implemented well its very efficient.
Mantle essentially turned into Vulkan, so it was very successful.
I dont know how people dont know this yet. I believe this was said often back at the time. Mantle effectively became Vulcan.
his vids are just fud no reason to post or watch
Sorry Gordon is wrong about Bulldozer. It wasn't a "dog", it was 'dog sh*t'.
Careful Steve, the AMD Masochists will come for you, and now they have Alchemist allies...
Bulldozer is so bad that my old Core i7-4700MQ laptop chip feels like an Apple M1 in comparison.
I did Cinebench R23 and it performs like a desktop Ivy Bridge Core i7-3770. Also faster than an i7-2600K without OC, just 35 watts and 3GHz lmao. But those desktop chips have basically twice the power consumption for the same perfomance.
Haswell is legendary.
@@MooresLawIsDead You have to add Raptordriver and Zen4dozer fanatics.
I can't wait for Apple M2 Ultra destroying both with efficency and CPU based Blender while using 10 times less power at half the clockspeed, no liquid cooling and no 1000 watt power supplies...
Same thing.
YES! Tom and Gordon took their time! I’m sure this was exhausting for you guys, and I’m so grateful to you for the quality content. Looking forward to this, big time!
Take your “i work so hard” flexing somewhere else. If you havent figured out how to make money in an air conditioned environment, youre small brained.
@@ConsiderFirstCnE Don't know much about Tom's schedule but Gordon spends hours working on benchmarks and testing and doesn't get much sleep with all these products coming out. Don't you watch PC World? He was looking half dead when Ryzen 7000 came out from all the work he had to do and lack of sleep. Gamers Nexus talked about it too with all these launches and only having a few days to test and write scripts for review videos. There's so much data and numbers to deal with it can be tough to be accurate all the time especially when you have a short window of time to do all of the work in. This isn't just some chat about tech with your gaming buddies mate.
3.5 hours? This episode is going to be great!
Tell me in 2 hours how it went ^^
Wow, I was two hours in when I read this and I hadn't realized how much was left because the bar was only halfway through
Quite literally
3.5 hours of one guy constantly saying how everything Nvidia and Intel does is a Huge Mistake!!!
Hahaha the host of this show is a joke he should just be honest and admit he is AMDs unofficial media department hahaha some of his questions are insane if you transcribe them they are comical.
@@JoeWayne84 cry more, smelly fan boy
Nvidia are not saints for cancelling the 4080 12GB , they just got busted for being dodgy. Oops.
Yeah, they don't have the right to free roll, they got away with exploitative crypto bubble SKUs then pretend they had respectable price/performance
4080 16GB still seems like terrible value for 1200.
@@UhOhUmm yeah, it has worse performance per dollar than the 90 according to their own graphs... wtf were they thinking
@@kingplunger6033 they want you to either buy the 4090 or any of their 30 series bc they have crap loads left
@@Aleph-Noll exactly! Nvidia is even limiting the 4090 stock just to clear the shitty 30 series which no one wants to buy right now because they are mostly still at or higher than original MSRP
Just when I was thinking, "Am I ever gonna see Gordon on broken silicon?". Life fulfilled.
Gordon was unexpected guest, I'm super hyped up for 3.5 hours.
I remember the old days, I was still a kid I remember going in the small shop, open the magazines that weren't sealed in a plastic folders with a CD with a demo of a game or a video of a new game that is coming out. It was really nice to read the Magazines
With youtube you can have the latest leaks extremely fast, these things wouldn't have in magazines
The old days were the first micros
The old days were the first micros
@@cedricdellafaille1361 Not exactly true, there was a lot of pre-briefing and also vapour wear to try to deter sales.
@@cedricdellafaille1361 being able to play all the random games that you never heard of, youtube doesn't come close!
AMD did not shoot themselves with AM4. A LOT of people bought into AMD BECAUSE of AM4. Then they went from maybe 2700X to 5800X, giving AMD a second sale because of the upgradability. If not for AM4, they would have built an Alder Lake.
The trouble right now is that people are waiting for 3D versions, and the old stock is winding down. But the old stock will be gone eventually and so it's up to deliver the 3D versions that gamer wants.
Problem is AM5 motherboards and DDR5 are too expenssive
@@Chris-hw4mq It's the early adopters tax. It's always been this way. Prices will come down.
X370 and 1st gen ryzen here. Im upgrading to a 5800x3d this blackfriday it's nuts!. Same mobo same ram,same psu...
That's not the argument Gordon is making. He's saying it's a double edge sword for AMD to keep platforms existing for that long. A lot of AM4 users aren't going to upgrade to AM5 for a while, because of the options AMD gave them on AM4.
Important note; not saying that what AMD did with AM4 is bad, it was a great deal for consumers. Just arguing on why what AMD did for AM4 will effect their sales, whenever it's time to move to a new platform.
Problem is that most of us expected more cores. I don't think that even 3d cache will save against 13600k in hybrid(gaming/production) usecases.
This was hella fun. Glad you were on the show Mr. Gordon. Love the pc world podcast. Great show as always Tom.
Thanks for listening!
Gordon, I'm a 68 year old gamer. I really need the $300 Air Jordans to keep up with all of the young bucks. I've got to beat them on style when gaming....LOL
Love hearing Gordon's talk and opinion on industry trends, even when I don't fully agree he's just such a great mind. Awesome get for a guest Tom.
Toms anti intel bias shines in this video, no matter how much he tries to claim otherwise with his 10-15 comments in the last handful of videos about "I don't like making negative videos, positive ones bring me more views". Hold yourself accountable man, yeah you are the content creator, but that's what you do, create content. People ARE going to call you out on it, being a silver bastion of justice against whoever you think is an evil company is going to hold you back (imo)
They're a company. If you are on AMD's payroll, that would be one thing, but what is the motivation here?
Lastly, ARC launched. It WILL sell out. I really don't know what is so hard to understand about this concept. They're a company selling a product is what the NVIDIA and AMD shills use, so now 80 billion is the new max revenue for what a company can make before youtubers are allowed to hold a grudge against a company?
Treat them all equally. AMD, NVIDIA and Intel are all soulless pieces of garbage that have zero interest in moving technology forward. They are profit first, and nothing wrong with that, stop defending these pieces of trash.
@@justinvanhorne9958 What anti-Intel bias. When Intel starts hitting their marks then if he is still negative about them yeah.
@@raeferwilson2599 if you cant pick out the desperation in his voice, then I don't think I can help you understand. In this video alone he textbook went above and beyond to character assassinate a company, using evidence that other companies have worse histories for.
How many times in this video alone, did he say "Intel is running out of money".
That is tone deaf and ignorant in itself, and Gordon wasn't having any of it either. It's one thing to get along with the shills at HUB, they have proven it more so, but Gordon isn't going to go along with this garbage.
@@raeferwilson2599 dude he's always anti Intel....he's thinks Amd is this untouchable corporation. He even claimed zen 4 was selling well lol....or my favorite Alderlake is Intels bulldozer moment...that's a Moronic detached statement.
@@samwallace7341 when he sees enough of these comments, there will be a follow up to the "I'm being gaslight" and I cant wait to see how he spins this.
Tom, focus on what you are good at, which is relaying information to the users... Your leaks aren't that legendary, and those that are trained to hear the different inflections, meanings, tones you use, it doesn't work...
An army of fanboys is just that... My advice is to keep your eye on the prize, and not looking behind you at the holes you tripped in on the way. No-one actually cares, and if you want to prove you can be the tough journalist, prove it and ignore the trolls.
Oh, and I just want to tip my hat at your daring to challenge the algorithmic overloads with this 3.5 hour _epic_ discussion. Great stuff 🙂
The episode is always as long as it needs to be :)
FYI - on average it actually seems like the longer episodes get more views on MLID. I haven't done an exhaustive analysis to confirm if it's literally true, but plenty of the longer episodes vastly outperform the shorter ones...
@@MooresLawIsDead I'd think as the channel grows your retained audience knows what to expect, and are thereby more likely to increase the average watch time. It may slow the rate new viewers click the videos, but the high average watch time could be juicing the algorithm to counteract it
I'm 32 and instantly felt old when I saw his face hahaha. I remember reading his articles in the late 90s. This episode brought back some memories, like voodoo.
the 4080 12gb made me want to wait for a 7800xt.
What a true ripoff. Nvidia just wants margins on the ampere cards but still.. they should release 4090 and hold off on the rest. The 12gb was nvidia showing their cards on an underhanded scheme.
I've got 4 PCs between me and my friends running on RX6000 series and they all run game great in comparison to RTX 3000. Little hiccups here and there with some new games at launch (cough BF2042) but all in all they are great.
Gordon!!
One of my fav PC Space heroes!
He doesn't hold hold back always a pleasure to listen to Gordon..
As a fun 'Old days story ,Somehow i conveinced my parents to buy me my first PC in 1991.. and that got me also in the PC world!
..though come to think of it back then.. it was gonna be either the PC purchase or a Kawasaki GPZ 250 and my parents instantly
Chose 'away from the Motorbike! :)
I enjoyed you holding Gordon's feet to the fire on Intel arc. It really bothers me when Gordon trys to spin any negative aspects of Intel and Nvidia into a positive unrealistically.
I like how Gordon tried to pin him down on his Arc is dead and the dude waffled. I am still smarting about the prediction that a 4090 would be easy to buy. The B&H cards were glitched. Gordon keeps on pushing back on Tom’s false narratives (4090 is in stock) and Tom keeps denying reality.
little tommie squeal really good like he describe raja
7000X3D series when? I think they should release them in November or people will go Intel permanently.
AMD's Mantle is now Vulkan. The Kronos developers of Vulkan used mantle as the core of the APIs development. It became the best and most efficient Multi OS API in the world. DX12 is just a very bloated Vulkan that only Runs on Windows.
Mantle became Vulcan, though most people forget.... Open standard as it should of been...
Gordon, you are wrong about 7950X, I run mine at 105w and its fast enough (95% perf 170w) and runs cool (33C) at the desktop and 60C max all core load.
Gordon said that we had a GPU Drought. That is WRONG!!! The proof is that Nvidia alone has, to their own addition, Warehouses full of 30 Series GPUs. What that means is they effectively gave 2 sh*ts about gamers and sold the absolute majority of their inventory to CryproBros. They HAD gpus that they wanted to sell for stupidly high prices to Crytobros ins tead of just releasing them to the regular gaming public. Now they hike the prices of their next gen stuff so they can get rid of their old crap at the cost of Nvidias regular customers wallets. At the end of the day, Nvidia Lied...again.
Mad props on getting The Great Gordon for a whopping 3.5hrs. I'm old school from the early 90s and he seriously is the goat. There's no one I hold more respect for even if I disagree with than GMU.
The complication of judging Intel on whether or not they deliver on time, is not knowing _why_ different projects arrive late. Which obviously they're never going to share that information publicly. They aren't 1 team that works on project to project exclusively. Intel most likely cancels more projects than AMD carries out. They're a massive company with their hands in way too many kitchens and I think them cutting the fat is a good sign Pat is making decisions to make the company stronger. Is it the fab that's been holding all their teams up? TSMC has been slowing down on new breakthroughs and Intel looks to be catching up on that front.
Regardless of sales Alder Lake absolutely delivered. Just like how Zen4 is now selling poorly AMD still delivered a great chip. It absolutely _was_ Intel's return to form cause you need to remember it's on a twice removed manufacturing node compared to AMD's. If Raptor Lake catches Zen4 that needs to be taken into account. Intel isn't hamstrung by TSMC being married to Apple and having to wait their turn on cutting edge nodes like AMD does. If TSMC stumbles just _once_ Intel will be all over AMD real fast cause Apple pays R&D, not AMD.
AMD's biggest hurdle is the same as it's been for the last 5 years. _Supply._ They have to guess months in advance are they dedicating their wafer allotment to GPUs? CPUs? Enterprise? AMD just doesn't seem like their GPUs have ever been a front burner project. They have always been reactionary to Nvidia, never leaders, and that won't change until AMD gets serious about graphics over margins. This is why gamers have been so hopeful for Intel which is ironically far bigger than Nvidia, just because we want to see someone, for the love of God _anyone,_ pose a real challenge to Nvidia and their cocky attitude. You can't just get a technical 1080p win over Nvidia when these new GPUs are deep in only making sense for 4k territory. I mean some of these reviews I'm positive they were even CPU limited at 4k when you saw wonky scaling at different resolutions. Radeon needs to stop being "good enough." No one is paying 4 figures for a "good enough" GPU.
People aren't appreciating that maybe, just maybe, the 4080 12GB actually achieved what Nvidia wanted from it. By having it in there, as a listing in it's product stack, Nvidia have been able to put an additional $300 premium on the real 4080, that being the 16GB SKU. Without the 12GB 'patsy', they would have had a much harder time trying to justify a $1199 price tag on a xx80 series card.
As for the 'ah but what about all the problems that it is causing for the AIB's? They wouldn't just throw their partners under the bus like that' reasoning that might follow a comment like this? Go ask EVGA about the disrespect Nvidia can quite casually throw at AIB's.
This whole thing with the 'unlaunch' might very well be less mea culpa as it is, 'all part of the plan'.
No need to buy right now. Let AMD do its thing, watch the new and used ampere market. The BS games these companies play really only work in the absence of competitors.
this comment is so true, and i cant believe that it actually worked... basically everyone overlooked the 4090 16gb, especially after the 4080 12gb got unlaunched....
I was subscribed to Gamepro back in 95-96 and loved seeing tech get better even as just a console player, and when that new magazine came out of the mailbox wrapped in plastic every month, the wait was gratifying.
Those were the days!
Man I love it when Gordon is a guest on shows. I have so many things I'd like to comment on, but I'll try to stick to the _"Will AMD go for mind share over maximum profits?" and _"How can AMD break Nvidia's Stranglehold on the GPU market?"_ side of things.
First, they have to be within 10% of the performance of Nvidia.
They need to be *SUBSTANTIALLY* less expensive on all their cards besides the top 2.
Having Raytracing that is at least as good as Ampere along with the improved rasterization.
FSR 2.0 needs to be implemented into essentially every popular game going back to 2019 or so. Taking the _"End users can just inject FSR 2.0 into any game that has DLSS or FSR 1.0."_ is a ridiculous way of doing business. 99% of end users will never change RAM or edit a .ini file, so expecting them to basically mod FSR 2.0 in is pretty darn pompous, and frankly sells their own software stack short.
Lastly, they need to sponsor streamers, both large and small, to use their GPUs for a solid year. So many people, both young and old who aren't overly computer hardware _educated_ won't even consider AMD, regardless of reviews. Now I completely understand it when a Twitch _Dancer_ doesn't have a clue, but when someone with a million subs between RUclips and Twitch doesn't, whelp that's idiotic. if they are doing it solo then they should absolutely be familiar with the tools they are using, and if they are large enough to have a team, which I'd assume includes a tech person to take care of the stream particulars and an editor, they should absolutely be familiar with both companies, and even if AMD is behind in CUDA heavy workloads, they do pretty damn well in Davinci Resolve works impeccably with Zen and Navi. Actually, if I am not mistaken, the video, sound and streaming engineer for Gordon's own PC World uses an AMD setup, and it certainly wasn't because of cost.
For strictly gaming, especially FPS games along with numerous AAA titles, the 6800XT and 6900XT are pretty darn good purchases for $500 and $700 respectively; or at least they would be if a new generation of cards wasn't in the process of launching.
If they could get a couple dozen of the top 100 streamers, or 3 or 4 of the top 10 gaming streamers to take a year long sponsorship, then I'm pretty darn sure their market share would balloon *at LEAST* 10-15%. Whatever the case, without mining they are in trouble, as say what you will about miners, but just like commercial professionals, they knew their products, being quite educated about what they were spending tens of thousands to millions of dollars on. AMD is now left with a highly educated niche group of people who are still willing to buy their GPUs, along with parents who are grabbing an HP Omen or Dell _wtv_ for their kids to play Fortnite and Call of Duty on (heh, two games in which AMD certainly coesn't perform at it's best, but hey, the 66/00/50 at $275 when compared to an RTX 3050 will certainly have AMD coming out smelling like roses in most cases). AMD needs to get the average gamer, someone like _"Mr. Matty Plays"_ or _"Skill Up"_ to start using AMD. That type of Gamer. The ones who are just as likely to play _"War Frame"_ as they are to play an RTS or _"Plague's Tale"._
Unfortunately that market will not even give AMD a second look, regardless of how much they decrease the price; because they don't believe AMD can do the job. Skill Up is still using a 2080ti, so he's exactly the type of person you want to sponsor. I look at Nvidia and they gave full systems to *HUNDREDS* of streamers and content creators, some with as low as 300k YT subs. I was stunned to see some creators I'd never, ever have thought would get sponsorships thanking Nvidia profusely for their new 7900X/64GB DDR5 6kcL _GREAT/_ systems with a shiny new RTX 4090 in them. Hell, one of them was a bloody Xbox Series X/Gamepass Streamer! The guy uses a PC to stream from his Xbox, at least he did, as I assume he'll be using the PC to stream Gamepass games now. Apparently he has just over 100k YT subs, does two 15 minute vids per week along with copies of his streams to which he normally has 500 viewers for 5 hours or so two other days a week. Oh, he also co-hosts an Xbox podcast on a channel with 65k subs. If Nvidia is handing them out to people at that level...well let's just say AMD needs to be aggressive as heck.
tl;dr: 20% Lower price than Nvidia at each tier, Raytracing at Ampere levels, get FSR 2.0 into every big new game from here on out and into the top 10 best sellers for each year dating back to 2019 if technically possible and sponsor streamers both kids and adults watch. They need to change the narrative on their GPUs. _"Bleh, their the cheap brand if you can't afford Nvidia. Their loud, hot, crash half the games on the market or run them way too slow compared to Nvidia. Their drivers are trash, they can't stream; they are just trash for _real_ gamers and creators!"_ Now none of that is true unless you just use Premiere and AutoCAD (and I still wouldn't call them "trash"), but until the masses hear it from some bloke playing Roblox they aren't going to believe it. They certainly aren't going to read all of this, never mind an entire article on Tom's or Tech Spot.
Lol, even my tl;dr's are long as heck. I need an editor.
Well, DLSS3 and high refresh rates are really screwed by DP1.4. Like 1st when lack of DP1.4 was mentioned I thought like "Who the hell needs more then 120 FPS 4k now", yet DLSS3 can actually pump more. Basically from what I have seen its useless if you have lower then 80 real FPS. So lack of DP1.4 kinda hurts rly.
It is sure stupid, but it "hurts" 0.0001% of gamers, 4k 240hz monitors and 4090s are hella expensive. DP 1.4 won't affect average people at all
@@user-tn6tb2qh8d Well, 4090 is totally not for average gamers too and its not for me also. I only mean that claiming the ability to create a lot of frames and then having a limited ability to send them to a monitor (compression only) is weird.
Arc is Hopium at this point. Star Citizen has a better chance of launching next year than Intel has to launch another card next year.
So you like a duopoly and high prices?
@@bthegawd8113 how the hell did you come to that conclusion?
@@ThunderingRoar tone says it all
Over 3 and a half hours.... Damn guys! Good stuff!
3.5hrs, hell yeah,
I mildly disagree with Gordon talking about features on AM5 boards at $500. I have a $480 Asrock AM4 board that has 10Gbe and TB3. Asus made a similar priced AM4 board that had USB4 & 10Gbe as the platform was becoming EOL, and almost immediately discontinued it. Seeing $500 AM5 boards without those things is a bit of a red flag to me. Given the X570 ProArt's limited supply, I'm inclined to believe Asus just wanted to put those features at a much higher price tier for AM5. There are a handful of resellers with that X570 board for $200 over MSRP.
Rumor has it that Lovelace has been sitting on the shelf since the Samsung 8nm, it didn't scale up with it properly as it was an original tsmc 6nm design, and so nvidia threw together what we now know as the 30 series. if this is true the display 1.4 makes sense.
The major hindrance to AMD's 6000 series sales during the pandemic, was they didn't pre-order the supply needed to meet demand. the demand exceeded the supply they had, and the pandemic produced s bottle Neck that couldn't keep up. NVDA on the other hand had a much larger volume on hand.
17:17 Mantle was donated by AMD, to be used as the starting point for the Vulkan API. So, it's still very much alive today, it just has a different name and has greatly evolved.
Gordon: I'm 34. Is it too late you think to try and get my parents to buy me a 4090? If not, I'll send them this podcast and give it a shot.
Lol, but also...sad.
Yes. You're parents will probably say.. "That's what you have a job for"
Maximum PC was the magazine that got me into pcs when I was a kid in the 2000s. I still remember Gordon's rants in the No BS Podcast.
Such a nice guy is Gordon, common sense and down to earth.
Two of my favorite people in this space. Impossible to skip by this one no matter how long it is. Good stuff!
I want to expound on this a little more. You have two similar yet distinctly different styles of tech RUclipsrs here. Gordon is correct BTW that large corporations tend to have fiefdoms. Great word! They are siloed and often the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing. It’s no wonder that Tom has some difficulty pinning down exactly what Intel is going to do, despite obtaining inside information. Still Tom is on the bleeding edge of where PCs are headed and the speculation is fun. It’s not wild speculation it’s informed but he can’t know the future with great certainty. Gordon certainly knows where we’ve been and that knowledge informs his insight into where we are now. Thanks for all the benchmarking BTW! The Nexus of these two styles were on display here and I found it very enjoyable! Someone should write a long form article about this…
Best episode EVER!!! my second watch was even better. The more Gordon the better. I hope he's an annual guest.
44:24 This is SUCH a good point.
I had this conversation with my wife last week. Fashion pricing has crawled into the tech space. People will spend $300 on Beats headphones that cost $15 to manufacture, when better products are a fraction of the price. Fashion pricing doesn’t make sense, because the price doesn’t match the quality of build or materials. Fashion prices match the name brand.
Women don’t want Gucci purses because they are more functional, or have a superior build to other purses. They want Gucci purses so they can show off their Gucci to their friends that don’t have one. It’s all a status symbol.
10:00 something to point out, GN does (or did?) written articles in addition to their videos on their personal website.
I think they stopped recently, but I always enjoyed having the article in writing because it saves so much time.
It´s so easy to forget. PLEASE. Past 2 years ALL GPU-board partners made $$$$$, 2x-3x profits. DONT forget that. And yes including EVGA.
Great podcast and I'm glad you guys took your sweet time with this one. Gordon is an amazing person to have in the industry.
Just a few comments as I go along:
Gordon with all respect, Apple NEVER admits fault. NEVER. They didn't change the butterfly keyboards out of benevolence, they did it because they got a class action for them. That's how Apple has worked for over 10 years now. Make a faulty design, get tons of customer complaints, ignore them and say "you're using it wrong", wait even longer, get a class action, put out a statement about a "small number of affected devices", finally change the design and drag out warranty replacements for so long that most people have long thrown out their faulty device and you've already released 2 new generations of products, which of course they're buying because what else would they use except Apple?
I very much agree on the brand loyalty that Nvidia has. And I think that's because it's much harder to have achieved that consistent experience year after year in the past. We've seen that some old AMD architectures matured much better than Nvidia, so it's not like they were behind in raw silicon performance. They were behind in software and drivers. When you release a card that crashes the first 3 times you're running a game then the consumer will remember that. It doesn't matter if you've long fixed it. Brand loyalty means that there is an imaginary level of "insurance" that people are willing to spend more money on.
In the CPU department this just isn't a thing really. There is basically nothing to compete on except raw performance. No drivers, no software features, no gimmicks. That's why buyers are much more willing to switch between the camps I think and why it's much easier for either company to bounce back. There is no Intel ecosystem that would prompt you to definitely buy the next Intel CPU.
I also noticed over the years that so many consumers are drawn in by the marketing hype and make purchase decisions based on features they're never going to use. Nvidia has absolutely perfected that and many fanboys do their dirty work on forums and youtube comments. How many people do I see arguing over hardware encoders, like everyone is definitely going to stream their games all the time? Oh yeah I'm spending an extra 200$ because I might want to do it some time in the future, maybe. As you said, people want the shiny name. They want the Geforce experience. I uninstalled that crap the second they wanted me to create an account all those years ago and have never looked back.
Always refreshing to hear some of Gordon's takes-- especially considering he's a long-time veteran in this space. The episode was a long one, but a good one. Cheers!
50 minutes in and I’m glad I have over 2 hours left to listen.
I used to love listening to Gordon Mah Ung on the Maximum PC podcast. His "rants of the week were legendary"
this must be the longest podcast I've seen on your channel, props to you and Gordon!
1:08:13 When I was replacing my 4770K system, I was debating between an I9-9900k system or an X570 Zen 2 system.
I ultimately went with the Zen 2 system because while I was not sure if the Zen 2 3800X was going to be better than the 9900K, I knew the AM4 platform had at least another generation of CPUs in it.
Since then I've ended up getting a 5800X and a 5800X3D, as well as ending up replacing the motherboard due to a very irritating incompatibility with the first X570 board I got.
Had I gone with the 9900K, I would likely still be on that CPU and trying to decide if this generation was worth an upgrade.
If AM4 had not had such a long life cycle, I would not have taken the risk on Zen 2, and they would have lost all of those sales over the past few years.
I have now heard for the first time, directly from someone at Intel and involved in Arc, that Battlemage is planned to have some form of dedicated products. The comment from Raja on how great it will be as integrated for MTL might be the full truth tho.
I do find it funny that people expect Intel to essentially charitably donate money, keeping the money sink of a graphics division alive on life support at the cost if billions, just because they love gamers so much and want them to have good prices. What are these people smoking and where can I get some?
The point people have been making the whole time is that Intel doesn’t want to do this and will only keep going if they can make money from their graphics division in the foreseeable future, and that more vendors competing is innately good for consumers. Obviously this isn’t an act of charity.
because many investments come with a short term loss
You are thinking Intel is just here for gaming lol, they have server graphics ponte vecchio family and a much more better investment for them even if they pour in billions more as they offer both cpu+gpu combo for datacenters. They can make a cut down version of that for discrete graphics and can still survive since their primary revenue will be in datacenters
Thank you Gordon for exposing selfish individuals who don't even know they're selfish (also known as virtue signaling).
"I want ARC to succeed, so I can buy NVidia card cheaper!" "I want AMD to succeed, so I can buy Intel CPU cheaper!"
"Let *someone else* spend their money on other companies, *so I can get my shit cheaper* from the same monopolistic company that I supported forever."
Perhaps the 4080 12gb was done on purpose knowing that they will unlaunch it just to distract that the actual 80 class card was costing 1200. All attention has gone to the 12gb ignoring the 16gb clever.
Imo the 4080 16gb is also in a weird place since it’s close enough to price to the 4090 (if you are already spending 1100 1600 isn’t much more in the grand scheme) while being good bit behind the 4090
I think this has been planned out even further.
Honestly you’re right, how can you call this a Lauch when they have no stock on the shelves? Why is the supply so constrained in the 80 billion dollar company
Oregon. Econ teacher here. Well done. You are very keen on this stuff.
There will always be those people that want to be on the bleeding edge of tech. But I think Nvidia sales will drop drastically this time around for the 40 series. Also a sizeable chunk in market share will also be lost if AMD are smart with their pricing and dont get greedy like their competition.
Thank you for having Gordon onboard. [EDIT: At 4K do we really need Ray Tracing? I am not using it, 4K looks great to me the way it is.]
01:26:19 Core 2 was not 40% faster than Athlon 64. In a couple edge cases it got as high as 25%, but was more around 10-15% on average.
AMD caught up entirely with Phenom II. They were overtaken again with Nehalem, and that's when AMD's disastrous decision to follow Intel's lead on Netburst (which lead to AMD's commanding lead for several years) lead to Bulldozer. It took Intel about five years to catch up with AMD after the Pentium 4 debacle (ironically by returning to an evolved Pentium 3 design, which is what Core 2 was), and it took AMD about five years to catch up after the Bulldozer debacle.
Right now, it doesn't look like either company is going to make the same kind of mistake by attempting to radically shift the performance paradigm.
I guess AMD could have caught up faster than 5 years, if they had money. But their income was drastically reduced due to Intel's more than shady (I would call them illegal, but I don't remember them being convicted) practices, effectively pushing AMD out of the market during P4 times.
Bulldozer was a bad design decision (AMD thought more things would be offloaded to the GPU, which was not happening at that time), but they simply did not have money to change their course.
I listened to the PC World Full Nerd with Usman and he didn't say the opposite, he talked about the problem with his executive source being slippery. What he said was similar with what was announced later on Arc future around Alchemist launch and doesn't say high end gaming cards.
Specifically he believed Tom reported sources he heard, but he hadn't confirmation.
I was a big big fan of maximum pc. I remember the gun fight 90s with pentium vs athlon and ati vs voodoo vs riva tnt. I am a fan of Gordon and listen to his podcast every week. Good stuff!
The real problem’s are that MB vendors are removing basic shit from mid-tier and relegating it only to their “higher end” boards!
I’m making the transition back to intel form my gaming pc until the X3D Ryzen 7000 CPU’s hit the market and it’s next to impossible to find a motherboard under 400$ on the z690 platform with something as simple as a debug display and onboard power/reset switch which is b.s, they can’t add a 1.40$ seven segment display and a 30 cent plastic button to a 350$ mb but they can load the board with useless RGB headers!
460 was such a great card. Back then 2 460 in SLI were faster then 480 and also cheaper.
I had that for couple years and it was great. A great win for consumers and also pushed SLI for the masses.
Now we live in different times and SLI is dead but boy did I felt great back then. Like 13 years ago.
The 460.. was horrible. So bad that the 560ti came out 7 months later and was so much better in every way.
When you ask someone a question, maybe let them answer without interrupting them?
Also you spent half the ARC segment just trying to prove you are right, rather than listening to the guy.
littly timmy tommie is butthurt when its true hes fad about "effectively cancelled" this will age on his ego, gordon knew when not to stop and lil timmy squeal right
I'm a stereotypical Timmy with a 1080ti still holding out for exactly what you said @1:47:35. I just want a rock solid card for 4k gaming that can fit in my case and can punch above 60 on the average new release or consol port for a bit, that costs under $800.
What a great dialog guys - thanks! Interesting divergence (and concurrence!) of opinions!
I do think it was intriguing how the assumption kind of was that branding matter more than reviewers - I think you tech journalists are selling yourselves short here; and the surprising difficulty of alder lake vs. zen 3 kind of proves that - quite a lot of people clearly really did take a look at alder lake's advantages, and decide it wasn't worth the platform cost - the kind of stance that indicates people are getting fairly nuanced and quite well-informed advice.
I'm really interested how raptor lake vs. zen4 will turn out - will the cheaper platform (but now in Intel's hand's) win out again? Or will the promised am5 upgrade path lure most adopters? Will zen3 v-cache matter at all any more? Interesting times ;-).
Im suddenly reminded of my Maximum PC collection. Oh man those were the days. I remember the magazine shop was very happy to see me every time he sees me, he knows i'll buy a copy everytime.
Gordon is a well rounded well spoken person.
Nice Move Tom to have Gordon Mah on. Motherboard makers are definitely gouging us. The Mobo Makers have already dropped their pricing to something more reasonable. It will drop more if they start to sweat.
The last time "Silicon gates" technology was used to scale-down to the next node was 45nm. That was about 15 years ago. Since then, each new node has required different dielectrics and conductor materials. That fundamentally changed the economics of silicon process technology, and Intel lost its lead (in the very thing it/Fairchild invented). TSMC saw an opportunity and the rest is history...
Perhaps the US market is different, but for the EU, the motherboard pricing problem is very real. The cheapest B660 board costs 103€, the cheapest B650 board is 213€. So, on top of DDR4 still being cheaper, there is an additional 110€ premium for the AM5 platform. That X670E from ASRock you have at 265 USD, that one is above 340€ here. The average user here does not pay more than 200€ for a board, so the cheapest AM5 option already exceeds that.
And the CPU is Expensive as well and Intel isnt BAD either. Agreed. Right now it doesnt really make much Sense. ppl are waiting right now for multiple Reasons.
The bigger story about the "Race to 1GHz" was that Intel had to recall their 1GHz and/or 1,13GHz Processors...
But they also had some Issues with the i820 Platform...
The MTH for example.
I agree .. it was the slow/no adoption rate plus the insane price for rambua memory.
@@Broman7157 Well, the MTH thingy, which translates RAMBUS signals to SDRAM had an oopsie and was recalled...
Godron?! 3,5hours!? Will definitely listen to it later!
I'm so happy this is an extra long episode. I've been burning through my podcast queue during sober October
Amd had a 4yr roadmap bulldozer- excavator. They never announced anything was canceled but steamroller and excavator were low end because they were effective cancelled. It will be the same for the next 3-4yrs with intels graphics
In this episode you really sound like an AMD employee.
On every ocassion you had argument "but AMD this, but AMD that". Guess they are always right...
As for the rest. Its great to hear Gordon's opinion about PC market today.
I`m building PC soon, and i still dont know if i will go with i7-13700k or R9-7900. I need a PC for FPGA compilation workloads and he gave me something to think about.
If someone can give me info where can i find benchmarks for compilation (it needs to be FPGA. Its different workload than C for example), i will be very thankfull.
I'm glad Nvidia is in the market. But, I will almost always go with AMD as long as the price / performance is better for the tier of cards that I'm buying at.
yep, 4090 stock in Australia was plentiful, it basically never went out of stock and you could always buy one.
Tom and Gordon together!!! 3 hours 35 minutes is not enough.
I love Gordon, great Collab
Gordon, I don't know about you, but I have seen the numbers for the 13900K and for production work, for the 13900K to compete with the 7950X running with 176 Watts of power, you need to punt in about 340 Watts of power into it.
So let's take a very practical scenario which we will simulate with CineBench R23. With my 7950X properly configured (according to a guide I wrote originally about three years ago for the 3000 series which is still valid for the 7000 series) I can run it at 5.35 GHz on all 32 threads with an Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 and the included offset mount all day where it reaches a maximum temperature of around 78 degrees Celsius and the temperature will stay there and get a CineBench R23 score of over 40,200. The other thing to consider is that at that level the fans on the radiator are still pretty much inaudible.
Contrast this with a 13900K. As stated you can get a CineBench R23 score of over 40,000 with it, but at around 340 Watts of power input. So what will happen if you try to run it continuously? With any AIO what will happen is that the temp after the third or fourth loop of CineBench R23 your CPU will start to throttle at 100 degrees Celsius, and of course the performance will sink. With a custom loop you will only be delaying the inevitable by a relatively short time before there too the 13900K will throttle. Of course with the fans you will have to use, it will be anything but silent.
Is there any information as to why ATI doesn't yet fully support CUDA? Getting that support would allow a fair bit of market share to be taken from Nvidia.
There are 2 things, Nvidia probably not at all interested in selling CUDA license to AMD, and AMD not having enough budget to spend on something they don't know if it ever becomes profitable. They spend everything they have to as competetive as they can right now instead of maybe in 4 years
Edit: I have read that CUDA works only on Nvidia cards because it is writen around Nvidia GPU drivers to work, so if thats true there you go.
dont forget AGN3d, voodooextreme, Firingsquad etc.. in addition to sharkyextreme, anandtech, tom's etc....
Big fan of Pcworld, this is awesome!
ive bought an a750, watching the video on it now. Its actually pretty solid just a little power hungry.
If we take "you're getting last generation" to be an argument _against_ a 5800X3D/X570 build, then surely DDR4 can't also be an argument _for_ a Raptor Lake/Z790 build in the same context. Because there's no upgrade path for anything in that Raptor Lake build either - chip, socket and ram is end of the line - and you still "only" get PCIE4.0 storage, as with X570/B550.
The MoBo manufactures are definitely price gouging. The cheapest nastiest AM5 boards here in NZ cost more than a lot of high-end AM4 boards. The prices for equivalent models have doubled in most cases.
Nice to see Gordon hitting back on your hatred for Intel
I still have nostalgia from picking up a Gaming or PC Magazines from the Magazine stand at the Grocery Store.
Zen 4 should have had more cores at the same price or been cheaper at these prices. Would have made a world of difference in the reception.
r3 6 core 12 threads
7950X is fine, the rest need a bit lower prices.
You speak of adding cores as if it's just a afterthought for AMD engineers 😅
@@robertstan298 or you act as tho that shouldn't have been in the front of there thinking. Look at it this way since Zen 1 the price of the 6core has done nothing but go up. That's not good for consumers.
@@No-One.321 also considering how the packaging change with zen 3 raising the core count shouldn't be that difficult for the lower models and I'm not talking about double core count but adding 4 at the high end for example would give them the extra pump to destroy Intel at multitasking, I think Intel surprised AMD by raising the little core count in all their models. given them and edge that was unexpected until it was too late
facts.
I just want to chime in and say the article about the 7700X vs raptor lake, there is one thing missing. The 13600K and 13700K have vastly better lows than the 7700X. I want buyers to consider not just average FPS but also the lows.
Can't wait to see what laptops bring. Hopefully AMD becomes more competitive. Especially on low end.
But then again, AMD is the company most against undervolting and tuning on laptops. Can't expect them to be competent on laptops given how they handled it this generation on laptops
I basically don't agree with anything Gordon say (especially on SFF 🙂), but I absolutely love him and the way he disagree with me ❤
I have been following Gordon Mah Ung since the Maximum PC podcast in 2007.
Gordon is one of the last real journalists
Totally love the conversation! Thnx Tom & Gordon
super interesting to see the old school with the new school, loved how Gordon pushed our favorite leaker a bit during the last third of it.
Second time listening to this one all the way through. A great episode for sure!
AMD doesn't need to win with GPU's. AMD needs to consistently beat on value for at least 2 generations to get mind share, and build trust. That is what they did with Zen. Nvidia is handing them the ticket to do this. It will take until RDNA 5 to get to where they are with CPU's. But they are on the right track as long as they don't try to match pricing.
Tom, do you think Qualcomm could be a new contender for the GPU market. The CEO said on a podcast with Lexi Friedman that Qualcomm would produce one (probably for laptops to go with their CPUs) but it would still be a new competitor into the market
Intel has roughly a billion in cards tom. They WILL sell out.
"Intel is running out of money". Holy crap, that isn't even worthy of a response. What did they do to you ? Are you all in on AMD stock or something? Like this is getting borderline obsessive here bud...
This isn't a small amount, sure its not "Intel" revenue. But its also more than you can fathom, so its getting kind of old hearing you make these bold claims regarding billion dollar product lines.
I hope you had a long nap Gordon after this podcast