I'm definitely a planner. I've written four novels, three were planned and one (the first one) was pantsed. This was not only the worst of the four but also took the longest to write (2 years vs 3 months for a first draft). I used to think I was a pantser but I've learned that planning helps me to write faster and better.
Great advice. Well done. I agree with every word-plotter/pantser is a spectrum. And you can reside on either end, or somewhere in the middle. But there is another method beyond the limits of that choice: Shoot first, ask questions later. Try plotting, try pantsing … … then try this: I'm a 'Reverse Plotter'-a pantser at heart who writes as if shot out of a cannon and then goes back to survey the damage. IOW, I fix what is needed (which would typically be done by plotters before writing), after the drafting is over. Lots of zooming in during drafting, and lots of zooming out during revision. This has obvious advantages over blind pantsing, which is what I did on day one of my writing journey-quite obviously full-blown pantsing can lead you into cul-de-sacs and threaten whether you will unmuddle an Act II or even be able to find an Act III (so I now capitulate to the fact that some idea of where you are going is necessary ahead of time). Another disadvantage of pantsing is it can lead to 'prose plotting'-accidentally writing things into the scene that are necessary for the author to know but are not at all necessary for the reader to know (what I end up cutting is often stuff like this, stuff a dyed-in-the-wool plotter only puts in their outline or spreadsheet, where it actually belongs). Reverse Plotting also has advantages over typical plotting, which can force you into a box you create for yourself, and hinder the 'what if?' concept going forward-never a good idea to stop listening to the muse. Since not doing that is the biggest advantage of pantsing, I get the best of both worlds by pantsing first, then Reverse Plotting after the fact. Bottom line? Plotting is seen by some as economical and straightforward, and a more efficient practice, often how they justify being a plotter. I'm not so sure about that-the 'paint and ship it' mindset can leave value in the dust. It seems the time and energy needed to correct things as a pantser is not any greater than that needed to plot first. If the goal is doing the best work and attending to detail, you'll reach the finish line at about the same time. The irony? In real life, I plot every move ahead of time. I'm cautious. I'm an engineer and I think like one. In writing, not doing that was an epiphany, and I enjoy both the plotting concept of planning and organization as well as the pantsing concept of letting my freak flag fly. So I do both in Reverse Plotting. Writing is a non-destructive medium. You can do whatever and then fix it if necessary. The only door of no return is a work being published. So how does this work in practice? Pretty well. What I do is get to know my characters really intimately. Once I know them, I step out of my own persona and inhabit them. I imagine I am the character. Sort of like an actor playing a part. This does something kind of magical-my character then tells me what they will say in dialogue, and even tells me where the story will go! So they do the work for me! I know that sounds insane, but it works (Aaron Sorkin and Stephen King both work in a similar manner-seems to work for them, at least). Here is how I think this really works: Creativity all comes from the unconscious mind. Our conscious mind can't see the sausage being made, so assumes it, itself, is the creator, and assumes ownership. But if you do the above, it gets your ego and your conscious mind to step aside, and allows your unconscious mind to whisper the words to you. Then, you act like a stenographer and write that down. Next, your conscious awareness puts on the editor hat to verify, revise, rewrite, and improve. It's a collaboration between the two sides of you. After all, what drives us regarding the theme of any particular story is how we feel, and feelings are also only in the domain of the conscious mind. Let it speak to you.
I love this! I feel like this describes me best. I start writing full pantster style but then have to go back and create some outlining, because I tend t burn out and don’t necessarily no where the story is going next. Like the Middle just escapes me. The disadvantages you listed with full pantster is what I have experienced as well.
Definitely a pantser here. Love it, but I have a big problem. Scenes come to me with dialogue and details, but they are not serial, one following the next. They come beginning middle mainly. Random no order. For a long time I fondly write about the MC not knowing what the story is about. A splattered landscape I’m expected to stitch together. It’s like a book you find while taking a walk one day, it’s pages loose and blowing across the field. “How could someone be so careless?” You start picking up the litter, and discover compelling scenes. So much so that now you want to find out what the story is about. And after piecing together what it might be about, now you must find out how it ends. It’s about a pathetic kid with a pathetic problem. Then there is the moment in the middle of the field 😮 you pick up a page; read it, and discover it is a science fiction story. That’s me. I like me. But jeez.
I'm generally a pantser and plotting tends to suck the joy out of writing for me. However, I am currently writing a collection of short stories and tend to write the whole plot, or rather think the whole plot before starting. Then I deviate, add or subtract.
pantser all the way. If I try to plot before writing my first draft I don't have the same enthusiasm to write because I feel like I've already told the story, even though its not really the bones of the story its more of a stick man of the story, i just don\t feel like fleshing it out in the same way. so i have to go write something else then come back to the thing that i outlined when ive forgotten enough of the out line to feel like im writitng from scratch again
I tried planning, but this really sucked out the fun of writing for me. I love pantsing, or writing by my own intuition, as I like to call it. After consuming so many stories, be it books, movies, TV or games, you sort of built a portfolio in your mind. That's where I draw from when writing. I sometimes write down small story beats that will come up later, but around half of these will get thrown out anyway, because my story went into a different direction. I like to have a specific concept and my characters figured out, but the rest I just come up with along the way. Funny enough, in real life, I actually LOVE to plan out stuff. Very weird, how with writing I'm the polar opposite lol
I am 100% a plotter because I like having everything I can ready when I start writing and having it all well thought out. But I actually start with the small details and end up waving them together to find the big ones. For the first book I wrote, I had most of the middle before I had a beginning or end.
I start with dialogues. My characters walk me through their lives. Their personality comes to life. What mishaps do they want to be in? Mystery and/or thriller or . . . For me, planning kept me in a box. I was a follower. Imprisoned. I got claustrophobic. 🙃
I never feel like I fit in with either of these. I always hated planning when I was younger, but after a strong start I'd tend to lose direction. I've found that knowing the ending helps a lot, and as long as I know where I'm headed I can generally fill in the middle. I do plan, but my plans tend to be messy and chaotic, and I can only plan so much before I start writing, I feel like there's only so much I can know ahead of time. When I think about it, a lot of my plans are more like rough notes of scenes I've accidentally started writing in my head before I'm at the point where I'm supposed to actually write them, or little interactions, plot points, meaningful moments etc. that pop into my head. I need to note them down before I forget them. I'm constantly making random notes as I'm drafting/editing. I feel like in my heart, I align more with pantsing, but I'm too chaotic and forgetful to channel it efficiently!
Try brainstorming and asking questions about your plot, your characters and setting, and then spend quite some time coming up with interesting answers that YOU like. You can write small notes on paper or you can keep it in your head. That way you're not cornering yourself into writing the same thing and can change things anytime.
I worked as an auditor and my work required a lot of planning that included a “program” that detailed every step. In the project. However, taking up writing for fun in retirement, I find I like the unstructured pantser method with a splash of plotting when it makes sense, like you said. When are you going to write a nice how-to encapsulating the critical pieces of the creative writing process. A particular author who has done this would suffice. I really enjoy your presentation of the subject matter in a language I understand,”Tip number X.” Just like an auditor. You do a great job. Thank you!!😊
Omg, this makes me feel so much better! I'm definitely a pantser. I thought that being a writer, we HAD to plot and outline. Me, I like to just write and figure it out as I go along and be surprised.
I'm what Ellen Brock called "an intuitive plotter". I like to plot out my stories pretty much in detail and it gives me both the best and the fastest results when writing. I already have a good overview when it comes to editing, too. But I cannot for my life plan out characters in advance. Characters have to come by naturally. I also like to plan out the scenes with what should generally happen (and strating this year I also note the goal, obstacle and dilemma, to make things a bit more clear to me), but the actual details have to be vague, so I can work with it. Normally tehre will be scenes I planned but decide to not write when it comes to it or unplanned scenes I realize I have to insert. Sometimes scenes lead me very far away from the plan, too. I like this part of the process a lot, when exxentially my pantsed characters interfere with my neatly written route map *lol* When I look at works I thorougly pantsed (which were ALL before I got into a writing course and started to read books on the craft - which I LOVE, probably another planner thing), I have a really hard time to edit them. With planned works it takes me about two to three months and four to five rounds of edits (line edits included) to consider my book finished. My last pantses novel took me almost a year and four rounds of developmental edits alone, not counting the time and re-writes I had done before actually editing. And I nearly went crazy five or six times to a point that my friends asked me to stop working on the book. So, yeah, at least about the plot I like my planning *laughs*
As I jot down my outline to have a generally reliable plan for my story, the brainstorming part of the individual outline components is by definition a creative/pantsing operation. In other words, I pants my way through the plan for the plot. It’s the only way to fly (write).
Architects and Gardeners is a lovely way to think about it as you say. Nabokov said that the best novelists are storytellers, teachers and enchanters combined. *But it is the enchanter in her that predominates and makes her a major writer.* We can discover the esoteric connections writers make in their imaginations by reading their lives as well as their fictions. *I Used To Live Here Once - The Haunted Life of Jean Rhys* by Miranda Seymour is a journey of discovery. Paperback edition 2023.
I use Dean Wesley Smith's "Writing into the Dark" process, ie. I pants, then outline.Which simply means after each scene I make a note on what I've written so at the end I can see the structure and adjust if needed. And, when I think about something I need to add I have no issue going back and putting in "the gun", so to speak. This is what he calls "cycling" and a lot of pro writers do it.
Answer: yes, both. I don't think anyone is purely one or the other. I go both ways. Plotting, or at least understanding how structure works, helps no matter what you call yourself.
I say make the outline but don't follow it. Making an outline is like stepping back from a painting to gain a different perspective. Once you have that broader perspective, you'll have a better comprehension of the story. I'm 100% team outline, but with that said, I think the notion of "sticking to the outline" is completely missing the point.
With me, I like to figure out the beginning, ending, and several plot points in between when starting out. From there, I try to let the story surprise me along the way. When I try to plot out every last beat in advance, the story winds up dead on the page, and I quickly lose interest.
I am a plotter. I am very right brain oriented. Plus, I have undiagnosed ADHD. Long story.. so, in life things just work better when I organize them. And that's how it works in my writing.
Larry Brooks , author of Story Engineering, to paraphrase, he says discovery writing is the practice of searching for a plot. If there is no plot it is not a story. Either way, every story needs development. Front loading some of your developed ideas is plotting. Plotted stories have tons of room for development, changes and discovery. Boxes are made for things. Writers aren't objects so don't put yourself in a box.
I'm still trying to figure out which I am! I am not yet published, but the first book I wrote, I planned it out first. But it still needed plenty of revision. The next manuscript I wrote totally seat of the pants--it still needed a lot of revision. So neither seemed a 'better' approach to me. Then I had a layoff of several years & now am co-writing a mystery with someone (previous 2 manuscripts were not mystery). Totally seat of the pants because we're figuring out how to write mystery as we go. Pantsing is both fun for the discovery-as-you-go but also extremely frustrating because it requires a lot of revision, but part of that is the learning curve of writing mystery. So I guess that's a long-winded way of saying I fall somewhere in the middle. 8-)
I thought I'm a plotter, but right now I write book without a ditailed plan and it's work better. I have maine theses in my head, but script tactic is no longer relevant for me. When I write this way it's like I'm in journey with my characters and we need to fegure everything out together. Now it's a lot esyer for me to get flow state and write better scenes.
I think i am a plotter, although i get more excited about scenes that come intuitively. Writing historical fiction without a ton of plotting feels like a bad idea to me. However, I've been plotting for years now so i need ro snap out of it at some point.
I dont really know what I am. I write about 2 chapters then all day while im at work, i think of what to write next. Then i pump out a few more chapters and so on. I tried plotting but moved so far away from what i plotted that it wasnt even the same book anymore so I know that I am definately not a plotter but I do not think im a pantser either. I did however find the way that works best for me and am about to publish my first.
I'm definitely a planner. I've written four novels, three were planned and one (the first one) was pantsed. This was not only the worst of the four but also took the longest to write (2 years vs 3 months for a first draft).
I used to think I was a pantser but I've learned that planning helps me to write faster and better.
Great advice. Well done.
I agree with every word-plotter/pantser is a spectrum. And you can reside on either end, or somewhere in the middle. But there is another method beyond the limits of that choice: Shoot first, ask questions later. Try plotting, try pantsing …
… then try this:
I'm a 'Reverse Plotter'-a pantser at heart who writes as if shot out of a cannon and then goes back to survey the damage. IOW, I fix what is needed (which would typically be done by plotters before writing), after the drafting is over. Lots of zooming in during drafting, and lots of zooming out during revision.
This has obvious advantages over blind pantsing, which is what I did on day one of my writing journey-quite obviously full-blown pantsing can lead you into cul-de-sacs and threaten whether you will unmuddle an Act II or even be able to find an Act III (so I now capitulate to the fact that some idea of where you are going is necessary ahead of time). Another disadvantage of pantsing is it can lead to 'prose plotting'-accidentally writing things into the scene that are necessary for the author to know but are not at all necessary for the reader to know (what I end up cutting is often stuff like this, stuff a dyed-in-the-wool plotter only puts in their outline or spreadsheet, where it actually belongs).
Reverse Plotting also has advantages over typical plotting, which can force you into a box you create for yourself, and hinder the 'what if?' concept going forward-never a good idea to stop listening to the muse. Since not doing that is the biggest advantage of pantsing, I get the best of both worlds by pantsing first, then Reverse Plotting after the fact.
Bottom line? Plotting is seen by some as economical and straightforward, and a more efficient practice, often how they justify being a plotter. I'm not so sure about that-the 'paint and ship it' mindset can leave value in the dust. It seems the time and energy needed to correct things as a pantser is not any greater than that needed to plot first. If the goal is doing the best work and attending to detail, you'll reach the finish line at about the same time.
The irony? In real life, I plot every move ahead of time. I'm cautious. I'm an engineer and I think like one. In writing, not doing that was an epiphany, and I enjoy both the plotting concept of planning and organization as well as the pantsing concept of letting my freak flag fly. So I do both in Reverse Plotting. Writing is a non-destructive medium. You can do whatever and then fix it if necessary. The only door of no return is a work being published.
So how does this work in practice? Pretty well. What I do is get to know my characters really intimately. Once I know them, I step out of my own persona and inhabit them. I imagine I am the character. Sort of like an actor playing a part. This does something kind of magical-my character then tells me what they will say in dialogue, and even tells me where the story will go! So they do the work for me! I know that sounds insane, but it works (Aaron Sorkin and Stephen King both work in a similar manner-seems to work for them, at least).
Here is how I think this really works: Creativity all comes from the unconscious mind. Our conscious mind can't see the sausage being made, so assumes it, itself, is the creator, and assumes ownership. But if you do the above, it gets your ego and your conscious mind to step aside, and allows your unconscious mind to whisper the words to you. Then, you act like a stenographer and write that down. Next, your conscious awareness puts on the editor hat to verify, revise, rewrite, and improve. It's a collaboration between the two sides of you.
After all, what drives us regarding the theme of any particular story is how we feel, and feelings are also only in the domain of the conscious mind. Let it speak to you.
I love this! I feel like this describes me best. I start writing full pantster style but then have to go back and create some outlining, because I tend t burn out and don’t necessarily no where the story is going next. Like the Middle just escapes me. The disadvantages you listed with full pantster is what I have experienced as well.
Definitely a pantser here. Love it, but I have a big problem. Scenes come to me with dialogue and details, but they are not serial, one following the next. They come beginning middle mainly. Random no order. For a long time I fondly write about the MC not knowing what the story is about. A splattered landscape I’m expected to stitch together. It’s like a book you find while taking a walk one day, it’s pages loose and blowing across the field. “How could someone be so careless?” You start picking up the litter, and discover compelling scenes. So much so that now you want to find out what the story is about. And after piecing together what it might be about, now you must find out how it ends. It’s about a pathetic kid with a pathetic problem. Then there is the moment in the middle of the field 😮 you pick up a page; read it, and discover it is a science fiction story.
That’s me. I like me. But jeez.
I am - using Ellen Brock’s 4 writing types - a “methodological pantser.”
I’m an Intuitive Plotter ❤
I'm generally a pantser and plotting tends to suck the joy out of writing for me. However, I am currently writing a collection of short stories and tend to write the whole plot, or rather think the whole plot before starting. Then I deviate, add or subtract.
pantser all the way. If I try to plot before writing my first draft I don't have the same enthusiasm to write because I feel like I've already told the story, even though its not really the bones of the story its more of a stick man of the story, i just don\t feel like fleshing it out in the same way. so i have to go write something else then come back to the thing that i outlined when ive forgotten enough of the out line to feel like im writitng from scratch again
Right! Same.
I tried planning, but this really sucked out the fun of writing for me. I love pantsing, or writing by my own intuition, as I like to call it. After consuming so many stories, be it books, movies, TV or games, you sort of built a portfolio in your mind. That's where I draw from when writing. I sometimes write down small story beats that will come up later, but around half of these will get thrown out anyway, because my story went into a different direction. I like to have a specific concept and my characters figured out, but the rest I just come up with along the way.
Funny enough, in real life, I actually LOVE to plan out stuff. Very weird, how with writing I'm the polar opposite lol
I am 100% a plotter because I like having everything I can ready when I start writing and having it all well thought out. But I actually start with the small details and end up waving them together to find the big ones. For the first book I wrote, I had most of the middle before I had a beginning or end.
I start with dialogues. My characters walk me through their lives. Their personality comes to life. What mishaps do they want to be in? Mystery and/or thriller or . . . For me, planning kept me in a box. I was a follower. Imprisoned. I got claustrophobic. 🙃
I never feel like I fit in with either of these. I always hated planning when I was younger, but after a strong start I'd tend to lose direction. I've found that knowing the ending helps a lot, and as long as I know where I'm headed I can generally fill in the middle.
I do plan, but my plans tend to be messy and chaotic, and I can only plan so much before I start writing, I feel like there's only so much I can know ahead of time. When I think about it, a lot of my plans are more like rough notes of scenes I've accidentally started writing in my head before I'm at the point where I'm supposed to actually write them, or little interactions, plot points, meaningful moments etc. that pop into my head. I need to note them down before I forget them. I'm constantly making random notes as I'm drafting/editing.
I feel like in my heart, I align more with pantsing, but I'm too chaotic and forgetful to channel it efficiently!
I resonate with this soooooooo much. You get me, lol.
Try brainstorming and asking questions about your plot, your characters and setting, and then spend quite some time coming up with interesting answers that YOU like. You can write small notes on paper or you can keep it in your head. That way you're not cornering yourself into writing the same thing and can change things anytime.
I worked as an auditor and my work required a lot of planning that included a “program” that detailed every step. In the project. However, taking up writing for fun in retirement, I find I like the unstructured pantser method with a splash of plotting when it makes sense, like you said. When are you going to write a nice how-to encapsulating the critical pieces of the creative writing process. A particular author who has done this would suffice. I really enjoy your presentation of the subject matter in a language I understand,”Tip number X.” Just like an auditor. You do a great job. Thank you!!😊
Omg, this makes me feel so much better! I'm definitely a pantser. I thought that being a writer, we HAD to plot and outline. Me, I like to just write and figure it out as I go along and be surprised.
I'm what Ellen Brock called "an intuitive plotter". I like to plot out my stories pretty much in detail and it gives me both the best and the fastest results when writing. I already have a good overview when it comes to editing, too. But I cannot for my life plan out characters in advance. Characters have to come by naturally. I also like to plan out the scenes with what should generally happen (and strating this year I also note the goal, obstacle and dilemma, to make things a bit more clear to me), but the actual details have to be vague, so I can work with it. Normally tehre will be scenes I planned but decide to not write when it comes to it or unplanned scenes I realize I have to insert. Sometimes scenes lead me very far away from the plan, too. I like this part of the process a lot, when exxentially my pantsed characters interfere with my neatly written route map *lol*
When I look at works I thorougly pantsed (which were ALL before I got into a writing course and started to read books on the craft - which I LOVE, probably another planner thing), I have a really hard time to edit them. With planned works it takes me about two to three months and four to five rounds of edits (line edits included) to consider my book finished. My last pantses novel took me almost a year and four rounds of developmental edits alone, not counting the time and re-writes I had done before actually editing. And I nearly went crazy five or six times to a point that my friends asked me to stop working on the book. So, yeah, at least about the plot I like my planning *laughs*
I used to be a pantser, but I’m steadily making the transition to plotter. It makes revisions SOO much easier.
As I jot down my outline to have a generally reliable plan for my story, the brainstorming part of the individual outline components is by definition a creative/pantsing operation. In other words, I pants my way through the plan for the plot. It’s the only way to fly (write).
Architects and Gardeners is a lovely way to think about it as you say.
Nabokov said that the best novelists are storytellers, teachers and enchanters combined.
*But it is the enchanter in her that predominates and makes her a major writer.*
We can discover the esoteric connections writers make in their imaginations by reading their lives as well as their fictions.
*I Used To Live Here Once - The Haunted Life of Jean Rhys* by Miranda Seymour is a journey of discovery. Paperback edition 2023.
you should be a poet or a storyteller
I'm a pantser, before I ever even knew there was a word for it.
I use Dean Wesley Smith's "Writing into the Dark" process, ie. I pants, then outline.Which simply means after each scene I make a note on what I've written so at the end I can see the structure and adjust if needed.
And, when I think about something I need to add I have no issue going back and putting in "the gun", so to speak.
This is what he calls "cycling" and a lot of pro writers do it.
Answer: yes, both. I don't think anyone is purely one or the other. I go both ways. Plotting, or at least understanding how structure works, helps no matter what you call yourself.
I prefer being a pantser, because I don't like spoilers. ;-p
Compliments. Your videos are extremely intelligent and interesting. Thanks. 😀
I think I'm a pantser but I sometimes use organizing methods to keep me on task..
I say make the outline but don't follow it. Making an outline is like stepping back from a painting to gain a different perspective. Once you have that broader perspective, you'll have a better comprehension of the story. I'm 100% team outline, but with that said, I think the notion of "sticking to the outline" is completely missing the point.
With me, I like to figure out the beginning, ending, and several plot points in between when starting out. From there, I try to let the story surprise me along the way. When I try to plot out every last beat in advance, the story winds up dead on the page, and I quickly lose interest.
I am a plotter. I am very right brain oriented. Plus, I have undiagnosed ADHD. Long story.. so, in life things just work better when I organize them. And that's how it works in my writing.
Larry Brooks , author of Story Engineering, to paraphrase, he says discovery writing is the practice of searching for a plot. If there is no plot it is not a story. Either way, every story needs development. Front loading some of your developed ideas is plotting. Plotted stories have tons of room for development, changes and discovery. Boxes are made for things. Writers aren't objects so don't put yourself in a box.
Oh! Think I’m a plotter over all and a pantser now and then! 😮😊😅
I'm still trying to figure out which I am! I am not yet published, but the first book I wrote, I planned it out first. But it still needed plenty of revision. The next manuscript I wrote totally seat of the pants--it still needed a lot of revision. So neither seemed a 'better' approach to me. Then I had a layoff of several years & now am co-writing a mystery with someone (previous 2 manuscripts were not mystery). Totally seat of the pants because we're figuring out how to write mystery as we go. Pantsing is both fun for the discovery-as-you-go but also extremely frustrating because it requires a lot of revision, but part of that is the learning curve of writing mystery. So I guess that's a long-winded way of saying I fall somewhere in the middle. 8-)
You’re beautiful ❤
I thought I'm a plotter, but right now I write book without a ditailed plan and it's work better. I have maine theses in my head, but script tactic is no longer relevant for me. When I write this way it's like I'm in journey with my characters and we need to fegure everything out together. Now it's a lot esyer for me to get flow state and write better scenes.
I think i am a plotter, although i get more excited about scenes that come intuitively.
Writing historical fiction without a ton of plotting feels like a bad idea to me. However, I've been plotting for years now so i need ro snap out of it at some point.
im the in bettween commonly called a plantser! I half plan and have pants!!!! ha ha lol
I dont really know what I am. I write about 2 chapters then all day while im at work, i think of what to write next. Then i pump out a few more chapters and so on. I tried plotting but moved so far away from what i plotted that it wasnt even the same book anymore so I know that I am definately not a plotter but I do not think im a pantser either. I did however find the way that works best for me and am about to publish my first.
im a PLANTSER
totally me as well! I love having an idea and make notes but then just start writing and firguring out where it might go!
How does that work?
I'm definitely a pantser lol
What do you call a person that’s a hybrid of the 2? Genuine question
A plantser.
I don’t know, it’s a bit of both tbh