An Analysis of the Unbelievable Courage of WWII Bomber Crews
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2022
- Support this channel on Patreon at: / flightdojo
I've always found myself wanting to quantify the courage of those who experience the extremes of the human condition. How much courage does it really take? And what qualities do those who are successful possess? In this video, we do a deep dive into what the nature of courage, what these men experienced, and the heavy toll it took on both their bodies and minds.
#ww2history #aviationhistory #aviation
Hello. There's little I can say about the courage of Eighth Air Force airmen beyond the occasional personal comments I made when stitching together the personal crew observations and accounts that tell the collective story in "Half A Wing, Three Engines and A Prayer." It was an enormous privilege and honor to meet these men and their families in the 80s and 90s and to preserve their experiences for posterity. But I do want to shout out a big THANK YOU for mentioning the book by name, so that others might read it, not for my sake but for their memory. Thank you again.
Mr O’Neill, thank you for stopping by! I love your book and it’s what inspired me to take a closer look at this subject.
@@flightdojo Hello again. If you want to talk about the book, I'm easily found on the internet under my name. (the immigration lawyer) I like your channel and your insights into WWII technology. My old employer, Curtiss-Wright, left much to be desired both as an engine and airframe designer and manufacturer during WWII, but it made two timely and very significant contributions to the Allied Victory: the Wright R-1820 and the Curtiss P-40 (not to mention Curtiss Electric props). All the best and keep up the good work here!
To have been able to sit down with those heros & listen to their intimate stories of life & death at 30,000 feet...wow. I hope you realize how blessed you were. My father was in the infantry, Battle of the Bulge. He came home with what now is called PTSD. He couldn't talk about it. He insisted on watching the TV show Combat every week but just sat & cried through it all. God bless all of these men. Almost all have gone home to God now. They've earned it. ♥️🙏♥️🙏♥️🙏 🫡 🇺🇸
@@billotto602 "I hope you realize how blessed you were." No question there! I was always fascinated by the subject, ever since my Dad, an Air Force pilot himself, took me to see "Twelve O'Clock High" as a small boy. When he came back from Vietnam, he had a massive case of PTSD from his experiences there in 1965-66. So, when the opportunity to meet 8AF vets and write a book about them came to me, I did it both to understand what they went through, since I ALWAYS wondered about that, and indirectly to come to terms with the changed man who returned to his family in 1966, bringing the Vietnam war home with him. So, I was doubly fortunate in a way. Thanks for your comment!
My mother was a volunteer at a B17 training base during the war. She told me that the unwritten rule was to be friendly to the men but don't get attached to anyone. Because most of them were not coming back.
My Aunt Louise Burns is 106 years old and was a TSGT in the Woman's Army Air Corps stationed in India and at Fort Wayne, Indiana. She told me the only thing men are good for is to fix things when they are broken. Otherwise, she said: "Men are no good".
Not most. 10-20% were not coming back
@@jamesburns2232 off topic this post does not haveany thing to do with the video. I doubt very seriously your aunt said this disrespectful comment towards any man
These are the sobering realities of war. A friend of mine was in Vietnam. When he got to basic training, he had some bad teeth, which were pulled. When he asked the dentist about replacement teeth, the dentists said “We’ll worry about that, IF you come home.” That one rocked me back on my heels.
My grandfather did a tour as a B-17 top turret gunner in the 8th. Then he did a second tour. In the process he got a purple heart, five air medals, and three distinguished unit citations.
He did all of that, and never once wore a "thank me for my service" hat. He never sought anyone's praise, and you'd never hear him brag. When pressed to talk about it, he'd just say "I didn't do anything unusual; lots of guys were in the service - we did our duty."
Why are some compelled to walk up to a uniform and say, "Thank you for your service."? It's so fake.
My Dad was the same way. Never joined the VFW or marched in a parade. Although he had a regular commission was not put into a Reserve Unit until late 46 when they inactivated his Group. Worked in the Defense Industry his entire career. Resigned Commission in 1952, The AF tried to call him up during Korea, but the fact that he was working on Top Secret Weapons Development kept him home. My Mother would have a nervous breakdown every time a manila envelope will be delivered from the DOD. No military funeral, just wanted a flag on his coffin, that I have mounted on my mantle. I also received a box with his Medals, patches, wings, bars and his pair of fine tan leather dress gloves from my Mother when he passed. Never saw a piece of Uniform. To him he was just doing a job!
I'm 76, and I can't remember my dad making the war a topic of conversation. He would answer my questions. But that was about all he would say about his time in the US Navy during the war, even though he was wounded as a result of enemy action and almost didn't make it back home. When I was a kid, and a younger adult would ask him where he was during the war, he would just give a short answer, "the south Pacific." His ship actually was first assigned to the invasion of Sicily, then to many campaigns all over the Pacific. The Greatest Generation typically didn't say much about the war. When they did, they tended to understate their answer.
If I remember correctly, it was only after the First Gulf War that veterans began to wear their military service on their sleeve, the ghost of the agony of Vietnam and its national self-loathing having been finally exorcised from America, thank God.
If I do wear my US Navy cap, it's in remembrance of my dad's service as much as anything I've ever done.
@@rudolphguarnacci197 Obviously, you weren't around to hear the derision, or be spit at like my husband and other Veit Nam combat veterans endured when they came home. They still hurt! A simple "thank you for your service" would have been music to their ears.
@@suzanneterrey4499
Yeah? Obviously. Your anger is misdirected, lady. You hsve no idea where i've been, shithead. You've never walked in my shoes. I get it. It's easy to get incensed by comments, even take them the wrong way. Or just how these comments beget anger. Keep knee-jerking and live a long life.
Thank you very much for this video; my father was a pilot in the 91st Bomber Group and flew 52 missions. The 91st had the highest casualties (80% in one raid, [Schweinfurt] 60% overall) of ALL other bomber groups in all the theaters of the war (Europe, the Pacific and China/Burma/India). This explained quite a bit about my father's war career. He had a lightning temper and he NEVER spoke about the war willingly. When he did talk, it was always a humorous episode that took place on the ground. He drilled the necessity of personal integrity into me; now I understand why he did. Those men had to place their trust and lives in each other's hands which is why the crew members became brothers.. After WW2, he got his college degree, and stayed in the USAF. He flew fighter jets in the Korean War as a fighter group commander and then transitioned back into the B-52. In both cases, he'd been selected in the then-new jet fighters and the B-52 because the Air Force selected to be among the "best of the best" pilots the Air Force had. After 25 years in the Air Force he went on to a second career with the Air Force as a civilian employee of the DoD at the Pentagon. Because he dealt with classified topic, there, he never talked about that, either. After his death, I met up with some of his friends who had known him for nearly 40 years. Not one of them knew he'd been a bomber pilot, or even served in the Air Force. He simply di not talk about his past. He always said "I don't like to look back, only forwards". Now I know more about why he was so tight-lipped. Thank you again for this new insight. I've read dozens of book about the Bomber war in hope of better understanding my father, but I've seen only one book that discussed the PTSD, but even that was a single chapter in a very fat book. Incidentally, most of the aerial combat and ground footage in your video was filmed at the 91st base Bassingbourn.
Well said. Check out my own father's autobiographical novel "The Sun ls Silent." He was a ROG with the "Bloody 100th" and good friends Bob "Rosie" Rosenthal and Harry Crosby. He told me all his surviving aircrew mates told him his descriptions of air combat against the Luftwaffe fighters were completely accurate and the best they'd seen. Sadly, John Hersey, consciously or otherwise later plagiarized the entire story, including the first initials of the major character's names in his successful "The War Lover."
Dean, know this: l take my hat off to your dad. I'm picking he had to be fiercely protective of his men - and his family. His men would understand that-they would have their own nightmares-no matter how grumpy or stern he was, he would do his damndest to bring them home. And that's what would matter to him the most, coming back alive. Medals wouldn't mean a damn to these men, but coming home would.
Dean, I found your story great.
My father in law trained in B-17s as a copilot, but got sick, which delayed his deployment to Europe. By the time he had finished training in 17s the war in Europe ended.
He was then sent to train in B-29s. As he prepared to ship out to the Pacific the war ended.
He liked flying, and stayed in for a short time, wanting to make a career out of the USAAF, but his wife wouldn't have it.
My great uncle was an observer with 224sqn RAF Coastal Command he died in a flying accident in October 1942. They were in a B24D, Liberator Mk 3a returning from a anti submarine patrol they encountered fuel problems and crashed following a collision with a barrage balloon. He was only 24yrs old, the pilot was only 21yrs old, the oldest person in his crew of 7 was 26. The only survivor of the crash was the tail gunner he was only 19yrs. To be able to climb into an aircraft not knowing if you were coming home takes a lot of courage. They were all from a very brave generation, they are all heroes and far braver than any of us.
A bit ironic that the only survivor was the tail gunner as wasn’t that position known for a low survival rate
I wouldn't say any braver, they just doing their job. You wouldn't back out if you had the man on the left and the man on the right go, so would you. They were in that exact position.
Yes I know this is unusal, in this instance being the tail gunner the safest place to be but he was badly injured and he was pulled from the burning aircraft by a young evacuee. FK242, their aircraft hit a barrage balloon over Plymouth and whilst attempting an emergency landing their wingtip hit a tree and it cartwheeled through a hedge before skidding across a field and stopped at a stone reinforced turf wall on the edge of Dartmoor National Park. The tail section was thrown clear. There is a memorial to the crew near Fullamoor Farm near Grenofen in Devon.
Yes they were doing their job we have some of his letters here and like many of that age the thought it would never happen to them. But they still did it, they were all doing their bit but they were still braver than us.
@@pjb5757 you just haven't been in a situation where duty comes before the outcome. I have and once you can accept that then nothing else matters.
Many years ago I had the opportunity to climb into a B-17 and traverse the airplane from front to back. I was immediately struck by how small, cramped and crude the interior of the fuselage appeared compared to the modern airliners I was familiar with. There was practically zero allowance for any sort of comfort for the crew. Add to that, there was no heating or pressurization for the altitudes they flew. The crew were freezing in sub-zero temperatures for hours on end - note how often the accounts in this video mention guns freezing. Then add to that there was no bathroom on board these bombers and men simply had to relieve themselves in their flight suits - which then might freeze after a short while. Compound this misery with having to fight for your life against attacking fighters and endure exploding flak and it's nothing short of amazing that all of them didn't go mad. The crew on those bombers very often had to endure an absolutely hellish experience that nobody who hadn't been through it themselves could ever understand. Courage had little to do with it. It was simple, grim, tough endurance.
HalaluhYa
There was a toilet in the B17...
@@lebaillidessavoies3889 The B17 that I traversed did not have one. Even if there was a crude, makeshift "can" available, there would be situations during combat where airmen could not leave their positions and thus had no other choice but to relieve themselves in their flight suits. It happened all the time, among all the combatants during the war.
One word: Drugs
Exactly. There was a B-17 on tour that I was able to see and crawl around in Yakima and I was stunned with how exposed all the crew were; the skin of the aircraft was aluminum foil, the tail was still covered in fabric, and the space inside was difficult to move around on the ground. The crew that flew these things were brave beyond what I would have been able to do. My father was a Marine in the Pacific and survived, which is why I'm here..... I have no idea how these people did what they did, day after day, knowing how many of them were being never coming back.
Flight Dojo you have made a truely unique video on the air war. So many videos available on you tube are on campaigns or about aircraft and their technical merits. This is a true story about people that needed to be told. Well done.
Yes, that was truly another side of the war.
My goodness, this needs too be told.
My father was RAF ground crew in WW2,. We would occasionally drive past the huge US cemetery in Cambridgeshire, he always let us kids know of the respect he had for the American 'Boys' that came over here. His worst experience , I believe, was helping to remove the chared bodies of airmen after crash landings.
We all should remember these same feelings, courage, and fear , are being repeated on both sides over in Ukraine today.
I was under fire as much or, in most cases, more than anyone I have met at the VA in or out of therapy. During my time in Vietnam, I ran small aviation maintenance crews. I was considered to be immune to the constant mortars, long hours, and terrible conditions. I was not. Fear under fire under fire made me think very quickly and make good decisions, if I didn't people died. It was as if time slowed down.
I don't remember ever thinking of my own safety during any emergency except one where my life was in a pilot's hands. I informed the pilot of helicopter's marginal flying condition and the details surrounding the condition. From that point on, whether we crashed or landed safely were completely in his hands. He was an especially good pilot but the aircraft was no longer air worthy and could come apart at any time. I knew I could easily die and there was absolutely nothing I could do to change the odds. I have never felt so helpless in my life. Obviously, we landed safely and I know I owe my life to that pilot. Man, he was good. I think I would have cracked up on either of my 2 tours, if I had not been able to affect the outcome of many terrible situations, no matter how slightly.
Placing one's mind so as to deal with multiple life threatening situations coolly and calmly and doing the shaking afterwards changes your brain. I was able to work efficiently between attacks because, as I kept telling myself and my crew that not getting the work done right and fast would put some other GI's life in danger. "If they don't fly, somebody will die" was our motto. We knew how important our work was and the danger involved was never enough to keep us from getting our work done. If we had given in, the the danger we would have been letting done those that needed those helicopters and letting the enemy win. I don't know what it was, on my crew, that kept them working. At the time, it didn't feel like anything special and still doesn't we just accepted that it had to be done and we did it even when we were nearly staggering from lack of sleep. It left its mark on the rest of my life and I have had 30 years of therapy just to stay sane and productive as a civilian. Few know and understand the costs of war on mental health.
Gluck gluck gluck
No one, who didn't actually fly these missions , can say with any degree of certainty what it was like, and how they would react in a similar situation. But, if you want an insight to what it was like to fly one of these missions, then I would suggest that you read the book "Bomber" by Len Deighton. It deals with one mission...but from the absolute start to the absolute end...and it looks at that mission from the perspective of the men who flew it, the men who tried to intercept and destroy them and the effect on the civilian population of the town that was bombed. In my humble opinion it is an insight into what these brave men (On both sides) went through...not just once, but over and over again.
My father was a B-17 pilot based in the UK. He arrived in the UK on July 15, 1943 and was shot down on his third mission on July 26, 1943 returning from a successful bomb run over Hanover, Germany. Inbound, his plane was hit by flak killing some of the crew but the intercom was disabled and communication was lost to the crew in the rear. He did know that his navigator was killed has his head had been decapitated. Returning to England he was attacked by an FW-190A piloted by Senior Flight Lt Decker and was forced to bail out. Five of the crew were killed and five survived but were immediately captured and spent the rest of the war as POWs. Lt Decker was himself shot down and killed on July 30, 1943 by an unknown P-47 pilot.
My father had been wounded by shrapnel and plexiglass. He very rarely said anything about his experiences in WW II. Everything I know about him is from researching US and German documents and from the Stalag Luft III association.
He stayed in the Air Force after the war flying B-29's, B-47's, and B-52's During the Cold War. He died on active duty in 1971 at the age of 51.
As for me, I ended up as a Marine platoon commander in Vietnam 1968-69. Hard year. Lost a lot of good Marines killed and terribly wounded. I led by example. I was pretty much a fatalist in that I put my trust in God and didn't worry about what would happen. Unless you make a stupid mistake, getting killed or wounded is a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and there isn't much you can do about it. I don't recall having any fear day to day, but there was twice where it was a terrifying experience. One had to do with an ambush and the other was when friendly Marine 155 artillery accidently shelled thinking were were the enemy. If you have never been in an artillery barrage, it is terrifying. We had many killed and wounded that night and it was well after dawn before we had the last of the dead evacuated (we evacuate the wounded first). We were in a valley and it was difficult for the helicopters to find us and land so it took time.
I stayed in the Marines for 21 years with two more years in combat. Retired in Aug 1989 and became an independent consultant supporting military technology programs until 2016 when I permanently retired.
It was a pretty wild ride. I'd do it again if I could.
Thank you for you and your fathers' sacrifice on behalf of this country. My great grandad was a veteran of the 100 days' offensive during which he received a purple heart. Never really talked much about it either.
🤦🏽🫡✊🏿❤ and most mornings I have trouble getting out of bed🛏️ Thx for a Great Story and the Courage to get up this am. God Bless 🫵🏽
You more than Earned it ❤
My grandfather was a tail gunner, and engine specialist, with the VMB-413 Shamrocks, over the South Pacific. I have his entire flight log.
My father was drafted into the USAF in 1943. He never talked much about his time in service he never left the US. He told me he was ashamed that he never had the chance to go overseas and "be part of the action". He had courage. I doubt I would have had the courage to be part of the 8th Airforce in 1943. The greatest generation that we owe so much.
My Dad was a (Canadian) wireless operator/tail gunner in old Whitley bombers early in WWII in England. This category had an 80% fatality rate, given that they were the first targetted by enemy fighters as the carried out raids over the continent. He survived.
Thank you for sharing! My father was a B-17 pilot I have much respect for my Dad!!!
Several years ago, I interviewed a B-17 pilot who had flown missions in 1944-45. He related a lot of horrifying experiences, including an incident in which one of his crew was electrocuted and set on fire by a malfunction in his heated flight suit. But I later learned that he'd skipped over other stories of still hairier situations that he'd told only once to people he was more comfortable with.
Age is a big factor in a lot of cases, a young man will push-through courageously right up until the body or mind simply break down. whereas an older persons are much more cautious, but remain calmer under fire. and usually better equipped psychologically to process traumatic events.
I agree totally. Got into law enforcement in my early 50s. Learned in training everything I needed to learn to stay alive. Had great confidence as a result. One day entered into an armed confrontation with a suicidal armed male and followed every aspect of my training without any fear, but rather with supreme confidence and calmness, even surprising my training officer who had never done this himself. Took complete control over a potentially deadly situation, and cuffed and stuffed him. Could never have done this without good training kicking in.
I believe I executed my training much better than I would have 30 years earlier.
An American Army Combat Infantry Officer in two wars, Korea and Vietnam, Colonel David Hackworth, THE most highly-decorated living veteran, until his death, years ago, had borne witness to the fact that fellow combat soldiers who'd consistently and repeatedly demonstrated extreme courage could, at some point, experience a phenomenon in which, as Hackworth put it, "his bottle had filled-up," meaning that he was no longer able to continue to fight as he once had.
Hackworth indicated NO lack of respect for these men who'd eventually reached their own personal limit. He simply observed that this could and did happen, and that this was just the way it was. He made NO negative comment or judgment about someone's having reached the end of their rope, and did not hold it against them. A lot of these men had displayed more valor than any DOZEN other men. His book, "About Face" is a blunt, harrowing, self-effacing, and frequently hilarious look at the experiences of the wartime and peacetime life of an American Soldier, and is well-worth your time.
😿I am so thankful for the individuals that fought for our Country in WWII!
At this point, I just don't know what to say to thank these brave individuals...
A good friend of my dad was a navigator on a B-17, and he said the flak was what scared him the most. His name was Olin G. Wellborn from Alvin Texas and was an attorney & district judge after the war.
An anecdote I heard from a high school teacher. RAF bomber crews would take empty glass milk bottles on missions and drop them over France/Germany because they would whistle on the way down. Whether it was just for the fun of it, or because they sounded like more bombs, I'm not sure. Either way it's an amusing thought.
My father- a B-17 pilot in the 91st Bomber Group- told me his bomber group dropped coke bottles... both for the shrieking sound and because glass didn't show up in X-Rays.
I remember reading a book written by an R A F tail gunner, early in the war he took to taking a dozen or so bricks, ( from a pile by dispersals ramp) on leaflet raids over Germany and throwing them out of the turret. After several "trips" he was officially reprimanded for this practise as it " may cause un-necessary harm and damage to the German populace". 😂😂
Most of these 'post war' psychological analyses were done with the intention of finding ways to desensitize men, and make them 'harder'. Some nations used drugs. A lot of what had to do with a man's performance in this impossible situation was the support of the nation, and the realization that his family was next on the chopping block if his side lost. This is true for the combatants of all the involved nations. At any rate, the shattered men of the US bomber forces faced a much less humiliating fate than that of the British, who treated mentally wounded men as cowards, and cast them off as trash. Even worse for the Japanese.....Perhaps if the AAF shrinks would have went up and flown 10 combat missions, they might have gained a better understanding............
I’m glad you brought this up, so quickly we forget these peoples bravery !!
Your narration is so good you do not need background music to hold the audience. My Uncle was B17 pilot he died on his third mission into the North Sea. His body was recovered 2 weeks later. Only identification was a small pocket Bible with his name at the back. His mother sent him this Bible and it kept his name off the wall of the missing. He did save four of his crew but not himself. Men in front of the plane survived from radio operator to tail gunner all died. Two were blown out of the plane bodies never recovered. His story YT “3Days In May 1943”. Three days only three missions. Thank you for your explaining what life was like for men in the 8th Air-force.
Am stunned at the quality you've represented here. Thank you.
Crewing one of the bombers the allies used during WW2 required incredible courage. Knowing if you had the courage would only happen, if and when you had to undertake the missions.
Gotta hand it to you. This is some of the best war-doc narration I've ever heard. just spot on! Big bag of respect for you work from me :)
well done, sir...
a sombre subject that is too often lost in the noise
glorifying and simplifying war that is the
usual on the tube of you.
My father was a B17 pilot, 325th Bomb Sq., 92nd Bomb Gp, 8th Air Force, Podington, England.
He was shot down on his 2nd mission, came down in his chute in the middle of an intersection in downtown Berlin. Civilians beat him, and were in the process of lynching him with his shroud lines on a street lamp post when a Berlin policeman saved his life. Half his crew were killed. 13 months a POW, Stalag Luft 1, Barth, Germany.
One phrase kept coming up in this great video and the comments below, “tight lipped “.
My Dad only told me his story once, and only after much prodding and half a fifth of bourbon between us. I think he opened up only because I was about to graduate and go into the USAF, where I spent 20 years as a fighter pilot. I wore the wings he was wearing over Berlin, as now does his grandson.
In my opinion, in the 8th Air Force, the USAAF was running a slaughterhouse. Horrific casualties. And yet the Mighty Eighth, was never once turned back by enemy action. Not because of its leadership, but in spite of it. Maybe it was a blessing he was shot down so early and spared the continuous utter horror discussed in this outstanding video. He saw enough on those two missions.
My Dad a B24 Navigator also bailed out and was captured. They were briefed to look for Partisans or German Military to surrender to, and stay away from the Towns People, because they might be executed! Also a POW @ Stalag Luft 1. Feb 44, until liberation May 1, 1945 by the Russians.
@@user-qy9tf2im7f yep…my Dad shot down 11 April ‘44. There were a lot of guys who bailed out who were murdered by the civilians. Heard one story of RAF men who were tied hand and foot and tossed into the fires their incendiary bombs had ignited.
@@joanofarc1338 Our Dad's were lucky, even though Stalag Luft 1 was no cup of tea.
Constantly being thrown in the Cooler
that was a hole for weeks @ a time in the ground for attempted escapes, they were always tunneling.
They found out when they took over
the Camp that the Germans had seismographs and were following their
tunnels. When they got close to the wire
the Germans would shut it down. The Germans let it go on because they could not make the Officers work and it kept them busy, but the tunneling was futile.
175lbs when captured, 118lbs when liberated. Was hospitalized in London
where he met up with my Uncle who
was in another Hospital recovering from wounds in the Hurtgen Forest. They had not seen each other for 3 years! It was one of the few things he talked about.
@@user-qy9tf2im7f yep….my Dad was a 2nd Lieutenant when he was shot down. Air Force Officers only in the camp. Guess who did all the tunnel digging. My Dad soon jinked out of that duty…he spoke fluent German, so he taught German lessons to the potential tunnel escapees. He also quickly learned to cut hair and became the North Compound barber. Cut Hubert Zemke’s and Frank Gabreski’s hair every two weeks. Kept him out of those damn tunnels. I remember one other thing my Dad mentioned, after liberated by the Red Army, somehow Col. Zemke, the senior POW, arranged for B17s to land constantly during daylight hours on the Luftwaffe fighter base just south of the camp. They evacuated the POWs the hell out of there to Paris. Over 9,000 of them. Pilots, Navs, and Bombardiers. Here’s what stuck with me. My Dad said they had to force many of those guys to get on those B17s because they were absolutely terrified to fly again. Also, when my old man first arrived at Stalag Luft 1, he said there were about 300 USAAF officer POWs there. As I said, when liberated, there were over 9,000. And there were 3 other Stalag Lufts. Remember these were the guys who survived being shot down. Makes one think how many airplanes were lost to account for those numbers.
@@joanofarc1338 My Dad got there in Feb 44, 449th 716th
Squadron, Grottaglie Italy 15th Air Force. His Ship
was Original Cadre and only 18 of 63 ships saw the end of the war.
My Dad was one of the Marchers whose barracks were mowed down by the Russian's Tanks. About 600 of them walked 60 miles to the American Line.
The Red Cross would not give them assistance. They had to scavenge all though the march.
My father was a top turret gunner on a B-17. He said the Army was pretty good at providing the booze when they debriefed, and his ground crew chief provided ample supplementation. After the war, he quit drinking, but he was consistently amazed at their two crew members who didn't at all.
Really enjoying these videos. I love learning about the history of aircraft especially their engines. Thank you.
Very sobering indeed. Absolutely sat me on my arse , so well presented. A tribute to brave men. Well done.
I can't comprehend the intestinal fortitude it took to squeeze yourself into the ball turret of a B-17.
Excellent presentation. My father was a B 25 pilot in the 10th AirForce in Burma. I asked him about his experience in flying missions. He told me that he did not have Japanese fighter planes to worry about, but it was the flack that was dangerous. He said it’s the flack you don’t see that gets you. I asked him if he was scared flying his missions? He said “ you just believed you were going to die”. He flew 80% of his mission and then at the age of 20 had a stroke and was sent back to the US to serve out the war.
I read Catch-22 recently. Apart from being a really funny book that appeals to my specific niche sense of humor it also has a lot to say on this subject.
This Flight Dojo Chanel is awesome
Brilliant presentations
My father was a ball turret gunner in Liberators flying missions from Foggia Italy in 1944. I have the arming tags he saved from every mission. He flew 50 missions. He suffered a very abusive childhood; abandoned at 3 years old and later abused by a step "father" he told me he could have "cheerfully killed". I believe he had CPTSD when he went to war at 24. Somehow, he survived the war, but passed the CPTSD AND PTSD on to me. The stories about flak, ships going down or exploding on take off were things he passed on as well. The superstition about cheating death was all in his story also. He was emotionally absent and extremely cruel. I am working to heal. War is Hell. I was spared as a concientious objector in the Viet Nam era, thank God
You Father was one of the rare B17 Groups that flew in the 15th Air Force.
My Dad also flew out of Foggia with the 449th 716 Squadron. Only made
5 Missions before bailing out over Yugoslavia. He was strict disciplinarian,
but him being the youngest of 10 in a Irish Catholic Family had a very giving and kind side to him. He had 2 other Brothers that also served and never really
shared the horrific side of combat, but only talked about the humorous events
that took place during his Service. He & My Uncle who was wounded in the Hurtgen Forest, used to meet regularly with a number of other Parishioners
all WW2 Combat Veterans with the Parish Pastor @ the Rectory. I am sure
that is where the horror stories were shared. I also always questioned why he drank very
little(almost a teatotaler). He said he drank enough in his 5 years of service to cover a lifetime.
@@user-qy9tf2im7f My dad flew B24s with the 780th Bombardment Squadron (H). He told me more about his war experience than any other personal experiences in his life, strangely enough in hindsight. Each crew was assigned to a different "ship". Their pilot allowed gunners to fly different turrets, even though this was technically not kosher. Among targets they hit were Willemshavin, Ploesti, and others all over France, Rumania, Germany etc. The crews were given 1/2 oz. Of whiskey after each mission. Dad thought this was pretty crummy. He saved his ration and got royally pissed...then had the crap beat out of him. At the conclusion of his tour he got R&R on capri. A crewmate friend visited us with his family in the 50's, name of Earl Dibb, who was a gunner/armorer.
This channel is slowly becoming one of my favorites.
I love your writing and narration. Your an exceptional scene weaver. You should write an audio book.
They the airmen on both sides were the bravest men in world war II no doubt about that! Excellent analysis.
Amazing video Dojo. Shared it elsewhere - haunting. An ex RAF and army Royal Sigs - you've captured it perfectly. Met many that have really been at the sharp end. One particularly, he spoke of two friends that committed suicide after many years after... Haunting. The bar scene if the two fellas in The Straight Story movie, by David Lynch - it was worse than that in reality, after... The children they had after somewhat inherit it, it really does become in your DNA you transfer, strangely, hence how Sissy Spacek was in that movie, terrible stutter...
As an informal student of WW2, I found your video answered many difficult questions about USAAF and RAF campaigns, particularly their toll on bomber crews.
How revealing of that era it was to find PTSD was informally recognized, but harsh sanctions remained in place through most of that war.
The single, most important lesson from the 150 survivors of 25 combat missions-- strength and health of personality have a lasting, beneficial effect.
My uncle was a co-pilot on a B-17, nicknamed "Happy Warrior" (renamed - "Homesick Angel") in the Mighty Eighth, 18th Bombardment Squadron, 34th Bomb Group. He was stationed in Mendlesham, England from 1943 -1945.
He and his fellow crew members were taking off for a mission in March 1945, but due to bad weather conditions, the plane crashed on the airfield and exploded. All but one of the bombs on the plane had exploded.
The entire crew of 9 perished, my uncle hung on to life for one more day and then passed on. I never met him. Respect and honour to all who served during WWII, and bless them.
May they never be forgotten.
What An amazing channel 10 mins in and I find this inspiring to my own mental battles which not to put my self down but pales in comparison to these fine men’s daily struggle.
I recently flew in a B17. It had the same protection a beer can would offer you against a machine gun. I could not get out of mind the courage it must have taken.
9:46 This bit with the ball turret and gunner free falling in a cramped glass ball for 27,000ft hit my imagination like a brick. Fuck that. Fuck that! *Fuck that!*
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Such heroes for me! Such heroes! May God bless all those young men who gave their lives for our freedom. GG - City of Tours - France
Great job and very interesting! I think the death odds you gave included killed or injured. Trying to find reference, but death was 20-30% and was much higher at first until formation tactics were established. Without a doubt, it was a risky job done by heroes.
Those men recorded at the very end… I imagine them lifting wrecked, burnt, and bloodied pinky fingers while sipping proper cups of hot tea. This is… a stiff upper *soul*. (salute)
Bravo Flight! i'm really diggin the change of pace - lowkey this is a case study on ptsd.. fucking thorough my guy
An old friend flew as flight engineer on RAF Halifax bombers. He did four tours of duty that’s at least 120 missions plus training flights in between. He was understandably a bit “strange”.
My FIL an RCAF volunteer trained in Canada and upon arrival overseas was "ceded" to the RAF. He flew 67 missions combined over Europe and the Far East as a Wireless Air Gunner with the bulk of those as a tailgunner in Lancasters and Lib's. His log book makes for interesting reading. One mission in the Far East was over 23 hours long! RCAF and RAF crew commonly flew missions until they dropped from exhaustion or showed visible signs of stress.
@@brustar5152 The RAF was definitely the tougher road to hoe. You flew till you
were shot down. No rotation out like the USAAF.
My father was a radio operator in a B-17 in 614th Bomber Squadron in Deenethorpe from Sept 1944 thru Jan 1945. Hard to see him as a 20 year old dealing with that kind of pressure for 32 or so missions over Germany.
My grandfather was a SeeBee 59'-72'. He screamed every night all night.
The British crew chatter! I would not believed it if I didn't actually hear how stiff an upper lip could be!
The movie 12 O'Clock high addresses this, "Don't worry about it. Consider yourselves already dead". According to my Dad who was a B29 Flight Engineer: " That was accurate then and now"; in my case I was like "yeah I could get killed by a SAM or AAA but it's probably not going to happen". Another issue for the USAAF and RAF is that the intensity of combat varied according to WHEN the crewman in question was flying their tour. The highest losses were in '43 and early '44. After that, the Luftwaffe was almost neutralized and the primary threat was AAA. For many crews they went ENTIRE tours without even seeing an enemy fighter.
My dad was a WWII vet. He told me about a crew member who had fallen asleep on a PBY. The plane actually had a bed for long flights. The plane was jumped by zeros and went into a spin. The guy woke up with the g forces of the spin pinning him to the bed as the plane burned and fell. He managed to bail out eventually and survived. When my dad met him he was on shore and assigned to the barracks. Every night without fail he would have horrible nightmares. He would scream and after a while he would jump out of his rack and just run while tripping over other peoples racks until he woke up. They moved him out of the barracks and my pop never knew what happened to him.
What a way to end such an excellent presentation. What men they were.
Hardly an expert on the matter, but after many years of struggling I did step up and talk to a psychiatrist about my mental health issues, and after seeing all of this it matches so well that I have to write something here, even after a year this video has been up. Basically before each session there's some questions I need to answer to see how I've been doing, and the symptoms described here basically cover all the questions either in the anxiety dept or in the depression side. The insomnia, persistent for several months is what drove me to seek attention, but in my case it was without any obvious stressor; we can all relate to being jittery about something and not getting good sleep but once it becomes chronic then that's a problem. The same thoughts of "I gotta tough it out" or "I'll power through it and it will be ok" are still prevalent all these years later, and I don't know if it's sad we still see it that way or if it's just a reflection of how we're wired up. Now that I'm under treatment and "feel like my old self again" and again enjoy work, I find it easier to solve problems, that a few months ago seemed insurmountable, so even the part of them feeling "they can't do their job as well" rings true to me, and while in software code can make calculation errors that can have big financial impact, it will not outright drop a bomb on somebody and kill them. In my case that I was unknowingly suffering from generalized anxiety disorder, once I got the right treatment, I see so many aspects of my life that where impacted by it, just random things that I thought where just quirks of mine where actually minor ways I was dealing with too much anxiety in me. I can only empathize and feel sad about these very brave (and almost criminally young) men who went through this and questioned just "how good" they where without need and the "quirks and idiosyncrasies" that they picked up because of trauma that haunted them and their loved ones for the rest of their lives. But as mentioned in the video, for the UK it was a matter of national survival, that can't just be glossed over, as much as I feel for these men, just as I can't just up and quit my job and leave my family without a livelyhood.
I find it hilarious that we do keep insisting on how the new generations are soft. I roll my eyes every time the debate comes between boomers/genx/millenials/namedujour on this because it's just one set of people unable to understand another one and blaming it on upbringing and taking the easy way out and lumping everyone in a category. I'll likely reference this video next time I see someone who's too insistent on this...that is if I engage on that type of conversation in the first place.
I love the audio at the end !!
I can't imagine what it must have felt like to enter your aircraft each time not knowing if you will ever come back. Flying in strict formation through heavy AA flak and buzzing enemy fighters he crew played Russian roulette with their lives on every mission.
When playing combat flight sims in VR I find myself in a distinct kind of melancholy whenever I get shot down or otherwise crash. The thought of..."damn it's almost guaranteed that something like this literally happened to an actual person 80 years ago" puts me in a strange head-space. These "games" provide a unique way of getting a small glimpse of the experiences and hardships those men faced (obviously the stakes are infinitely lower) and I often get the feeling that I'm communing with ghosts.
This is probably the best video I have ever seen, I've always been intrigued by the WW2 generation, my grandpa having been a member of the cavalry, the odds of the airmen were slim beyond comprehension to me, and yet they plodded on, this video addresses the core issue of combat I think and it's good to try to understand what drives men to do what must be done.
Masters of the Air!! I can't wait, it's been so long.
Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable both volunteered to fly bombers rather than stay in Holywood. Real Heros.
The less control one has over their own fate, the more likely these symptoms of fear are to manifest. For example:
Actions which exacerbate fear,
Mindlessly charging a trench of machineguns in WW1.
Flying in formation in WW2 in the back of a large airplane, unable to maneuver out of the way.
Actions which reduce fear,
Platoon leader trusting his men and giving them leeway to alter tactics, counter ambushes proactively, and develop new solutions to problems perceived to be a very real threat or already encountered.
When the men feel they have control over their outcome, and are treated like smart, capable, professional soldiers, they can set about innovating and increasing their odds of survival (or at the very least feel like they are influencing their odds of survival). The simple fact is that most bomber crew members had no ability to influence their own survival rates. they were not allowed to deviate, innovate, etc. They just had to ride along and roll the dice and gamble that they'd survive this time. they were 100% at the mercy of the leadership's ability to develop proper tactics, adapt quickly when things didn't work, etc. Most leaders with that level of authority aren't good at adapting on the fly though.
(I'm speaking as a combat veteran with 2yrs of combat experience, and doing a job where guys in my unit were hit an average of 2x each on my first deployment. we were able to adapt and influence our missions though.).
This is the best glimpse we can get of war as civilians. Please listen and watch this video in its entirety. Look at the world around you and pay attention to those that thump their chests and tell you of the honor of serving your country.
This is not meant to dissuade service, only the conflicts and wars that empty families from our lives.
An amazing video and great honour to our brave forefathers, thank you.
I found this vid just awesome . These guys did increadable stuff. As a Cold War veteran, I am interested in "what about us peace time vets?". I have depression and all 10 symptoms of PTSD, but have no combat experiance. If an establishment is wanting a study on such, please contact me.
Before l flu a mission in the Vietnam War l can't tell people about it because they would have idea what the hell l was talking about...l am in my 80's.....Shoe🇺🇸
Even to this day the phrase "bomber crew" is an epithet used to describe a group of people who have a common experience and have formed a bond that transcends rank, job title and background.
There’s nothing glorious about combat. Whether you’re in a tank, an airplane, a ship, an infantryman, or submarine. I can hardly imagine what any of those would feel like.
Officers would feel it more. They have more responsible jobs (pilot, copilot, navigator, or bombardier.) additional responsibility to the box, squadron, or Group.
My dad was the bombardier on B-17 crew out of Port Moresby New Guinea. A friend on another crew kept asking him to fly a mission with them, but he kept saying no. He decided if asked again -he would go. He wasn't asked. That crew was lost on the mission he never took. If he had, I wouldn't be typing this.
I was interested in the early reference to the prefrontal cortex. The brain continues to develop into early adulthood. The prefrontal cortex is responsible for evaluation, logic, and planning. The prefrontal cortex in males doesn't fully mature until about 25. This is one huge reason that young men are prime for being soldiers and airmen. Many men didn't think it was going to happen to him.
I am no coward (63yo); but I couldn’t imagine the raw guts needed to ignore the dangers, yet get on with the job these amazing young men had to do at some 4 miles high, let alone being shot at on the way to and from designated target. Sacrifice for all of us here today.
We were fed stories as young boys with all the jingoistic fanfare about that war; but at 20, if memory serves, I doubt our generation had the upbringing to do that task. Perhaps explains the dissonance among servicemen in the Vietnam era. I salute all of you servicemen!
When I was 18/19 years old my friends and I would go out Saturday evening, try picking up girls, get drunk and miss the last bus home and either walk home ....5 miles... or sleep on the local cliffs then catch a bus to go home Sunday morning. when my mother would give me hell swearing she had given birth to a delinquent.....Her bother was a bomber pilot in WW2 he faced flak and night fighters while being strapped into a noisy, freezing cold environment. He was 19/20 years. old...Now. 75 years later I realise what a debt we owe to all those young men. My uncle who faced death on a nightly basis died in 1952 while riding a motorcycle....
The comparison with, the Russian roulette scenario, hit home👍!!! You're right, about that concept. Unnerving, but right🥺. "Of each generation being accused, of being 'softer', than the last". That's true. Remember when we were little (I'm 61, to give perspective), and grandpa would say "Well, I had to walk, 5 miles in the snow🌨️, to get to school everyday, when we were complaining about just, going to school"???
One thing, though. The term 'Battle Fatigue', was first used in WWll, and the Korean War, but not in Vietnam. It was called something different, then. That's possibly when PTSD, was first diagnosed. All together, there were 4 classifications, throughout the 20th. century, I believe.
This is a great video about something that is difficult to quantify. Sad to realize that many men who couldn't hack it had their lives ruined. That was a real injustice.
A lot of British bomber crews wrote letters to their girlfriends saying they had met someone local and to move on and forget about them. They knew they were not going to survive the war, like my uncle did, so pretended to have found someone else (Petwood hotel has a statue of a girl that was the girl they found) he's a grave at Kleve cemetery.
I really enjoyed this.
Excellent stuff btw
My grandfather flew wellingtons in the RAF
He flew the entire war and survived but died shortly after the war from the shrapnel wounds
60 plus missions
Wow not too many youtube true to life videos like this. Fear will make you think twice.
Semper Fidelis 🙏🏽💪🏾🙏🏽💪🏾
Thanks for this. Most videos on WWII focus on the machines or the glory. The real life tragedy, not so much. I think it is an important part of understanding the events of WWII, by undertanding the impact on the humanity of those involved. I want to also recommed a little 50cent paperback book from Dell published in 1960 "Black Thursday" by Martin Caidin, a well-known author on WWII Aviation topics of that generation. "The Epic Story of the first daylight Flying Fortress attack on Germany's heartland". I onIy got it as a free adder to another WWII fighter plane book I bought on e-Bay. I hadn't heard of it before ,but was excited to read it. It really helped to bring the trama of events and the severity of the problems to be solved in the bombing campaign against Germany. It is only 288 pages, roughly 3"x5" book (same format as the 60's comic paperback collections), but very much worth reading to help understand what those involved, from command right on down to the front line men had to deal with. I think it very well dovetails into the subject matter you are describing here. It was the first time I really felt I had gotten somewhat of a more realistic understanding of the real picture. I hope you have the opportunity to read it. I'm sure you will enjoy & appreciate it. PS - Love your Channel.
Combat: moments of sheer terror in between hours and hours of utter boredom.
Those I fight, I do not hate.
Those I fight for, I may not love.
But here is my duty.
For me. My family. My country. My ideals!
New meaning to the word Brave
Let's not forget the bravery of Jimmy Stewart, actor and B-24 Bomber Pilot. Mr. Steward did not take a cushy PR job with the Army Air Corps. He risked his life flying fuel and bomb laden heavy bombers over Europe. A far cry from those celluloid heroes infesting today's Hollywood.
Definitely would be shunned by Hollywood Elites,
yet they accept Oliver Stone who served extended
duty in Vietnam, Bronze Star with Oak Leaf, 2 Purple Hearts. 100% Infantry including LRRP.
I personally have far too much imagination to have been a good airman - thinking of what had actually happened to other crews would have put my mind off my duties far too often. I am also far too realistic to think that only the others would be shot down, never myself. As a result I have the greatest respect for those courageous men who flew in the USAAF and the RAF on bombing raids over Europe during WW2. God bless them all and may those who have gone ahead of us all rest in eternal peace.
You might be surprised to learn how much courage you can acquire, even when afraid, when all that you cherish and hold dear is threatened.
Wonder what the stats were for Luftwaffe bomber crews, particularly late war?
Superb video ....end of conversation .
USAAC bomber crews had an important mission...That said, their missions might only last a few hours a day, they ate hot chow every day, went to the club after missions, and went to sleep in beds located inside warm barracks...If weather was bad they would have a few days off in London...They weren't like soldiers who lived day and night for months at a time on the actual battlefield, subject to artillery, machine gun bursts, rifle fire, and snipers unrelentingly...If it rained or snowed then you slept in it...When you went to the bathroom you might have to do it in your M1 helmet to not leave the safety of your foxhole...Sure, being on a bomber crew had some rough times, but paled over the length of time to the misery of a soldier...
Grandfather was one of the lucky tailgunners to make it. Wellington was one of the planes he was on i believe
To get some small idea of the mental strain of a WWII bomber crew, read the novel "Catch 22" by Joseph Heller.
If I had the choice I would rather serve in a B 17 than be a grunt at the front. Unlike the infantry, the airforce guys had clean sheets, nice off duty uniforms, good food, hot showers, and ready access to beer and girls, as well as lots of spending money. Although serving in a B 17, especially as ball turret gunner, was insanely dangerous, at least one was spared from body lice as well as the sight and smell of rotten bodies, some which might have recently been your friends. Furthermore, in the airforce one was also spared from all that marching and humping. Also, because of the impersonal nature of air combat, one was spared the emotional trauma of having to stick a bayonet into an enemy's guts. And in the end, unlike the poor bloody infantry who were stuck at the front for the duration, if one was able to survive 25 missions, it was case of home James. No wonder those serving in the airforce were considered the war's prima donnas by the poor bastards toiling away in the mud and the blood.
Some men flew 50+ plus missions and some only flew a couple. Your life was literally in gods hands. Crazy. Great video I’m subscribed.
These guys lives were in the hands of the German pilots who pulled the trigger at the wrong time......
They were indeed very brave. Some people don't realize that the airplane is covered in thin aluminum that a .22 short can pierce. Though there were some armor to protect the crew, it was very limited. And even if the crew were not hit by bullets or flak fragments, if the airplane was shot down, they had little time to hook up their chutes and get to an exit. And if they had the time, the plane could be in a spin making it impossible to get to the exit. These men deserve our admiration.
and the German did not use .22 short, but 30mm Minengeschoss, that was almost as a smale handgranade.
Bomber crew members, the bravest of the brave.
Professional, top to bottom. Sincerely: Call 60 Minutes!
Actor Jimmy Stewart was the first Hollywood celebrity to enlist in WWII. He was a private pilot with a university degree... First he was rejected because they said he was too thin... So he went on a weight gain diet and worked out 2 hours a day. This got him into uniform as a private, but he was then deemed to be too old for officer cadet training. He appealed to the Air Corps as a university graduate with a private pilot license, and finally got a commission as Lieutenant. The system immediately grabbed him for use in war propaganda documentaries, and it was made clear to him that he was never going to see combat. After appealing three times to his commanding officer, he was finally sent to England, promoted to pilot and given a B-24 Liberator to fly. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and was promoted to Major, then full Colonel, one of the few people to enlist as a Private to rise to this rank. After the war he transferred as a reserve officer in the newly created Air Force and qualified in the B-52 for nuclear weapon delivery. He was promoted to Brigadier General before he retired from military service at age 60. He never claimed to be a hero, and never talked about his service.
I found a scrap of folded paper in an album behind a photo of my great uncle George. He flew in the Three Feathers B29 of the 444th Bombardment Group, Very Heavy Special in the CBI until we captured Tinian and Saipan. The left side of the paper had a column of ten names, the right had seven, all of which were also on the left. The three names missing were killed when Three Feathers was hit over eastern China. I never heard him speak of the war.
Mighty interesting all around. I imagine almost incomprehensible for people who have not been in combat. There are activities where a person is regularly called on to act where they are putting their life in danger -- fire fighters, law enforcement, Coast Guard Rescue swimmers, et cetera.
I am in awe of all these people. The Statistical analysis and the factors considered in the pscho-history of the air crew are remarkable... But it struck me that 150 individuals is a small sampling from which to infer anything but anecdotal perspective.
Of course, the stories are still representative of combat experience; they still have value; people like ME need to be reminded of the details of prolonged trauma and titanic stress we demand our uniformed service people endure in their service. We need to understand what kind of hell we're sending our people into.
according to the attrition rate presented at the beginning, it sounds like this: you have 1000 bombers, and after 2 raids you are left with only 53 (670 bombers lost in the first raid, plus 84% of whatever was left, which is another 277 downed bombers). Are my calculations correct?