Sorry, but did everyone just all forget about the ancient Greek god of 3D printing, Xerox? Because his importance in the Homeric epics clearly explains Batamemnon’s armor.
The armor looks plastic… because it most likely is plastic. It’s the matte finish and smooth, clean surface that gets me. It looks oddly cheap and like a Halloween costume
It certainly looks like it was filmed in Scotland. I'm a Greek mythology addict since childhood and I don't know why anyone looking for a sword & sandal fix would watch this. Hercules and Xena looked more Mediterranean than this.
@fujifilm5127holy shit no way, I had no idea, it's almost like we like it when the director's telling of a story resonates with the story though, who would have thought? I just thought i'd be getting the Odyssey, you know a Greek story
@kellyhudson6452 It's like they don't get why we watch sword and sandal movies to begin with. If I wanted pants I'd watch a movie about medieval northern europe.
@archigallus I think Nolan is the type who would commit self-deletion than feel like AI can share credit for his work, even if he’s the only one who knows. I just think this will be his first genuinely mediocre movie.
You make a very good argument here. It’s easy to blow off mythological tales as pure fantasy, but they are stories OF THE PEOPLE, so it makes more sense to be historically accurate so you’re representing how the people ACTUALLY looked and lived. Hopefully it’s a good film, but I’m with you that my faith in humanity is also in decline, so it’s hard to expect Hollywood to care about historical accuracy.
Even when it comes to fantasy, the “who cares, it’s _fantasy_” line is trite; as discussed with the LotR comparisons, fantasy (and sci-fi) works best when given some grounding in reality. Ironically, such grounding enables the fantastical elements to be believable, and thus more, dare I say, realistic, than if there was no such grounding.
The Odyssey is a story recited by Homer who lived in the Classical Greek era. He probably had no knowledge of the culture and time of Mycenae Greeks outside of some fragments. The question is not if ancient Mycenae approved but if HOMER would approve. As a poet he care more about narratives and themes and not about Spartan Batman.
@yonghominale8884 Outisde of sculpture, art of Homer's period isn't really about 'photorealism' (and let's be honest, sculptors have an interest in making their living clients look good in marble, too). I have ti imagine that he'd probably be on board with anything that brings his audience in and keeps them interested. And he is, after all, a poet rather than a historian, which means the rhythm and flow is probably more important than going full Tom Clancy Gear 'Tism on the audience.
@lordofuzkulak8308 "Fantasy is a natural human activity. It certainly does not destroy Reason; and it does not either blunt the appetite for, nor obscure the perception of, scientific verity. On the contrary, the keener the reason, the better fantasy it will make." J. R. R. Tolkien
My hot take is that movies about Greek myths should feature Greek / Mediterranean actors or at least actors who look like they are Greek / Mediterranean.
💯 it would come across much better if they had at least main characters who were Mediterranean instead of going for big names and somehow getting the most Northern European cast imaginable. I have just 1 Greek grandparent and you can still see it in my features; we're pretty distinctive.
Jason Mantzoukas looks the part for Odysseus and could surely act as the most cunning of kings. If there are no actresses for Penelope who look like Francesca Stavrakopoulou then give Francesca Stavrakopoulou a crash course in acting.
@vanyadolly Brad Pitt played Achilles. Blonde hair, blue eyes, and was the star of the movie. Remember Troy was "historically accurate" and based in reality.
This cracked me up. When I first saw the trailer, I immediately thought, “Oh look, ancient Batman.” Thank you for confirming my thought. Also, I can’t unsee the Chad chin now. 😂
Oh it's 100% Batman and it's 100% on purpose. If you want to rabbithole yourself for hours, start watching videos about how Tenet has parallels with Inception and this or that prop from Memento shows up in The Dark Knight. There is a whole subculture of Nolan fans out there who just get an enormous kick out of finding this stuff and pointing it out to each other in long iceberg videos. This is for them, history, mythology and immersion be d---d. I'm not really mad about it. It's cheesy. It's not for me. It's for them. And I'm convinced it's on purpose.
Yes, we want to see more interesting ensemble casts of flawed but talented people, teaming up on interesting problems. That doesn’t have to be a superhero movie all the time, it can absolutely be Mama Mia.
Or maybe that's a sign you need to watch more movies or stop going into movies with an "everything is superhero Hollywood " lense. Otherwise I'd intrigued to know how films like Sinners, Weapons, The Naked Gun, and Zootopia 2 are the result of Hollywood Superhero film making.
@ultilinium8 wild to include two franchise movies, one of which is a Pixar sequel, with Weapons and Sinners as counterexamples of superhero/ip/franchise filmmaking. many of the costumes in Sinners were originally intended for the mcu blade movie. Both Sinners and Weapons are led by marvel actors. Sinners' director directed the only Marvel movie to get a Best Picture nomination.
Exactly. I know I don't have the expertise to tell whether all details of a costume are realistic or if the furniture is right. But I do know that plastic has no place in ancient Greece! And that there are so many real-life artefacts they could take their inspiration from, even if they took liberties with it. Just finding those little details that are a nod to actual historical things is so fun when you're watching a movie.
@battleoid2411 uh, actually myth. Just because it isn't factual doesn't mean it can't be accurate & authentic to the source material. Like, LOTR can still be inaccurate AND inauthentic to the source material even though it's fiction. The video you're commenting on LITERALLY made this point for you and you don't seem to get it. Why are you even here?
@battleoid2411 it is true that it is a fiction. But there is still a context. The person who wrote it inspired himself from a Setup, Environment, Culture and Belief you would only find in ancient Greece. It my make therefore sense for people to ask at least a Greek accurate representation. It being a fiction doesn't mean that Nolan can just do whatever he wants and we have to accept it.
It’s very disappointing that they shot a lot of this in Scotland, filmmakers are forgetting about how important it is to immerse people in the setting of a movie, they are so used to green screens, they forget about being on location. How the sun feels and looks shining directly on you while in the Mediterranean is very different than the way it looks and feels when filtered through endless clouds and fog.
This is one of the biggest sticking points for me. It LOOKS like it's set in Scotland, and they're certainly dressed for that weather. Why would I watch this if I'm looking to be immersed in a Greek epic?
@vanyadolly It's an utterly insane artistic / cinematographic choice, and I honestly can't think of any real reason for said choice aside from either A) sheer stupidity, or B) to sUbVerT eXpEcTaTiOnS (which is frankly cringe and redundant by this point). Everything about the Scottish landscape and climate is the complete antithesis to the Mediterranean - they're the polar opposites of the European continent. This of course translates into the 'vibe' of both places, and the associations we have with them that stems from their individual history, folklore, and societies. Most people, particularly Europeans, can readily recognise Scotland and it immediately springs to mind thoughts of stags, whisky, cosy fireplaces, bleak and wind-swept yet ruggedly beautiful peaks and valleys, stags, hairy coos, and Celtic mythology. It's everything that the Mediterranean, and Greek Mythology, isn't. Imagine making a movie about Ancient Scottish / Celtic folklore or mythology, and filming most of it in the Cyclades islands in Greece lol. It'd look ridiculous, right? That's how Nolan and co. look here.
Damn, and I had just been talking myself into thinking that this wasn't Scotland! Me a few minute earlier: Just because my brain immediatly went "Scotland" without ever having been there, doesn’t mean it is Scotland! It's not like all of Scotland even looks like that and there could absolutly be areas in the Mediterranean that are lush and verdant ....Turns out, it looks like the Brave movie because it is in Scotland 😅
Also honestly there were a few surprisingly decent helmets in that movie directly based on actual surviving 15th century helmets. Like one I could literally tell was a direct replica!
It's so important to distinguish fantasy from mythology. Too often are the two conflated. Truth to be told the myth of the Trojan War (and the very real event that might inspired it) is a glimpse into a early stage in human history that needs to be treated with a little more care. The funniest part is that Nolan seemed to have made a career of creating "realistic" interpretations of outlandish concepts like superheroes, time travel and dream manipulation; yet his take on a real period like the bronze age has almost nothing to do with it.
This. Mythology is composed of the foundational stories of a culture, often exaggerated or made up, but foundational. It's hard to understate how important the Iliad and Odyssey were to ancient Greece, but a key definition of their culture was worshipping Zeus and being able to read Homer in the original form. To know those stories was to be Greek in the ancient world, especially since they were spread across the whole Mediterranean by the 700s. Respect that these stories came from a specific world, time, and place.
Tolkien was inspired by the Poetic Eddas and wanted to give create the anglish epic saga that he felt was missing. Most modern fantasy stories have _some_ element of poetic epic in them, usually without even knowing. Transfiguring _The Odyssey_ into a _LOTR_ style fantasy saga is possible, _EPIC the musical_ did some of that in rhyme (somewhat)! Even in China they _finally_ figured out how to do epic fantasies by going back to their own source material & making something meaningful, from the heart, instead of the golden fonted slop they've been making for years. _Ne Zha 2_ broke records & _Creation of the Gods_ (2023) is the closest thing to LOTR I've seen in a long time... This though...
@Hasselia Interesting, I haven't heard of those movies before. I fear I'm trapped in an American-centric algorithmic spiral. I'll definitely going to check them out
Yes. It's baffling and it's disappointing. Even though I don't always agreed with him, I always assumed Nolan to be one to challenge himself creatively, and that seemed true enough early in his career. But this film is looking like standard Hollywood, even with the practical effects. Trying to be more period authentic would've been the sense of innovation that this film, and Nolan himself, need.
@junjunjamore7735 In addition, I feel like Nolan wants to be seen as intellectual (although his movies aren't, really). Odysseus is one of the biggest heroes known for his intelligence. And in that regard the Odyssey (also with references like Ulysses by James Joyce) seems to be the more prestigious material than another war movie like Troy.
@hekatetrivia1727 How are people supposed to point to an absence? There is just really nothing of interest there. I don't think anyone who has seen many films can really like his stuff at all. He has no visual sense and nothing to say, seemingly. In his historical films he tends to fail to produce any sense of the importance of the events. His sci fi stuff feels like juvenilia.
Im not greek but im mediterran and the fact that they didnt even bother to get a single mediterranean actor and instead the whole cast is anglosaxon tells me everything I need to know, they just dont care
Christopher Nolan is in danger of morphing into Ridley Scott when it comes to historical accuracy. In fact it baffles me how we put more effort into making literal fantasy (LOTR) look more real and believable than actual history.
Eh, the Lord of the Rings movies were something special. They were made by legit Tolkien nerds who went out of the their way to make something good and true to the stories and put years of thought and hard work into it, and I'd say they're the exception that proves the rule.
@zenogias01 IDK, I know I sound old by saying this but they just don't put the effort into movies that they used to. there were a lot of great movies coming out at that time (late 90s/early 00s), but recently, for me, it feels more like a pleasant surprise than an expectation to come across a good movie
@sulijoo The Odyssey is not history. Odysseus did not exist. The Odyssey did not happen. Scylla and Charybdis aren't real. Getting upset that someone is presenting a stylized version of a fantasy story is very, very, very, very silly.
Agreed. Can't wait for his Werewolf to come out. His movies make me feel like I'm transported not just to a time and place, but to a mindset of the people living there. And I'm not saying every movie needs to be like that, but would be nice to not have to rely just on him for that, poor fellow. Plus that Hollywood Marvel aesthetic Nolan is serving here is just so... boring!
@AW-uv3cb capturing the mindset of the people at that time is my FAVOURITE aspect of Robert Eggers's work. The Northman truly blew me away in this regard
Once I saw the armour my interest for seeing this film vanished. We have Greek armour. We have pictures of Greek armour. And most people have never seen it. It would be as new to the viewing audience. Rather this absurdity.
What annoys me is that when they do "Ancient Greek" anything it's always using classic Greek-style armor, or at least a Hollywood interpretation of it. It's like people just expect that if it takes place in the Greek world it must feature Corinthian helmets and bronze cuirasses and linothorax instead of bronze-age-style armor.
@Eidos2012 he's a dope. I've always been extremely underwhelmed by his vapid, pretentious, self serious movies. Im sure there's an exception to that, but give me Burton's Batman, or a war movie with ANY character development, over Nolan.
12:24 I live in the Mediterenian region. Right now it is overcast with dark clouds, it will propably rain later, and the view outside my window which is a typical city view is still more colorful than the trailer was. I can excuse inaccuricies but man at least make it look good
I live in the Seattle region. Right now it is overcast with dark clouds, it will probably rain later, and the view outside my window which is a typical city view is still more colorful than the trailer was. I think a lot of filmmakers have somehow forgotten what the actual real world looks like when they aren't looking through a camera.
I'm so disappointed that there're no Greek actors for Greek stories. Christopher Nolan could've cast unknown actors like we see in his movie Dunkirk instead of casting established movie stars.
Who would you pick? Jennifer Aniston and Tine Fey are the major American actors of Greek descent I am not familiar with any Greek actors from Greece, but I am sure they are there
@birds-of-rhiannon Doesn't have to be well know names, f*ck they could pull ones that come from the Mediterranean for all anyone cares... the reality is that despite what Hollywood believe A-lister names doesn't guaranty profit if at all, if that were the case Dolittle would've killed it as a movie same with flop movies with A-list galore as a marketing ploy, much more sincere effort come from actors who actually have to prove they can go toe to toe with the big leagues rather than an established actor who more than likely will phone their performance in.
Yes, Mediterranean type brown actors would have been fine. But people with a north European look is just wrong. Jarring. These are folk heroes of a very particular place and time. One in which north Europe paleness was known about and was commented on. I think Odysseus was lighter haired but in the context of Greece and Anatolia not Britain and Scandinavia.
Greek here: The Greeks revered the Iliad and the Odyssey because these epics were the greatest polemics to their gods. As naturally anarchic people, basically the most anarchic culture ever created on earth (famous for not bowing to kings and having citizen assembly in every city), they loved stories that attacked the ruling class, that defamed the immortals.
Thank you for this video, as a Greek person I feel very defeated seeing everyone in Hollywood treat mythology as a fanfiction playground... Nolan wants to get the money and recognition from making a film about a story of a people he doesn't care to accurately or respectfully depict.
Every single artistic choice in Nolan's Odyssey so far has been absolutely baffling to me lmao💀 And it's not like I'm pretending complete historical accuracy with no artistic licences, far from it, but it's honestly kinda bordering on offensive to the viewers' intelligence at this point, ngl (the Viking ship is particularely egregious). And worst of all, it just looks uninteresting. Also maybe a hot take, but the "nordicification" of a Mediterranean world feels, to me as someone from a Mediterranean country, pretty offensive and potentially racist, ngl (the Parthenon's marbles mention is spot on).
At least they are in Europe Also, the story is that he went all over the place for 20 years. And I bet the movie has primarily Mediterranean backgrounds
thats what i thought too. i mean im not mediterranean but goddamn how ignorant and arrogant do you have to be not onlyto mix time periods, not only to completely seem to ave no regard for the quality of your costumes, but MIX cultures. probably not doing shits for research and then pumping it out under such a big name whilst the film is a mockery snd racist at worst, and at the best aimply inaccurate as hell. it genuinely feels like blatant whitewashing. i can only hope nolan doesnt actually have sinister reasons behind this, but even if this is ignorance, so many people are gonna watch it and just not know its false unless they research (which few do) (sorry for ranting udner your comment :p)
The viking ship bit reminds me of the discussion about William Wallace wearing a kilt and celtic face paint in Braveheart. That's like The Godfather but all the mafiosos are dressed in Roman togas.
At least for Braveheart the kilt and bodypaint was associated with the Scots. This is associating Ancient Greek culture with medieval Vikings and 20th Century comic book costumes. Not even good ones - cheap plastic knock-off versions of fantasy armour. And the worst crime of all is that it’s all ugly and uncinematic.
To be fair none of them would be running around wearing the full panoply - it's heavy and cumbersome to wear outside of a real pitched battle. Just for going out and not expecting heavy combat they'd just wear the cuirass and helmet.
@zenogias01 Also, having looked into it as a potential topic for my thesis, the arms and armour described in Homer’s works reflect Archaic period Greek arms and equipment, not the Mycenean era arms that the alleged time period of the Trojan War would suggest. The only plausible reference I know of that might imply an ancient Mycenean armour is a reference to a boar-helmet, and we do have archaeological evidence of helmets either decorated with or made of boar tusks in that period. As such, I’d prefer Archaic Greek armour and as much I do sincerely love and obsess over the Dendra panoply, most audiences would probably think it’s pretty lame looking (sadly based on firsthand experience).
@heilmodrhinnheimski Thing is both the Boar's Tusk helmet and Dendra Panoply were outdated by the time of the Trojan War so they wouldn't really be appropriate either. They came from a time 200 years prior. Though, yes, Homer did describe a Boar's Tusk helmet so it's not out of bounds that there were some relics hanging around.
Actually, those ships are not a mistake: during Troy War the Bronze Age Norse ship sailed to the Aegean Sea and was sunk by Napoleon, who shot its nose off with a cannon.
Flashback to Nolan’s insistence that the Oppenheimer test bomb HAD to be done w practical effects. Rendering a “nuclear” explosion visually identical to a gas explosion because it was merely that, a real (controlled) gas explosion. Nolan should learn to take direction better.
@mads597 I don't understand the complaint. The test scene was very effective, and they sold aspects of it with editing, coloring, ect. You'd prefer a CGI attempt that's more accurate but doesn't feel like that?
the problem I had with Oppenheimer is that it did look underwhelming, it felt as though everything was leading up to something big but what we got just looked like a gas explosion, I rewatched it just now and what I think still stands... my personal favourite depiction of the Trinity Test has to be from Twin Peaks, you get a sense of the scale, it doesn't cut away, it lingers, it fully shows you the horror of the bomb espcially with the music, it gives you everything you need to understand what the bomb is... I feel like the leadup to the explosion in Oppenheimer is better than the explosion itself, maybe the movie would have been better had they not shown the explosion at all and just lingered on everyones reactions, tho maybe audiences wouldn't have been happy about that
You articulated all of my own thoughts on this better than I could. I can’t really understand why Hollywood chooses to make “historical”/mythological movies with so little accuracy or authenticity when the stories that actually exist and the cultural aspects they discard are MORE interesting than what they end up making! It’s disappointing! Authentic (as opposed to totally accurate, necessarily) costumes, color palette, scenery…these would be so much more exciting.
I actually had to double check if the trailer I was watching was from an official channel, because it looked like a fanmade trailer at first glance. Without even getting into the idea of historical accuracy, it simply looks so BORING and just left me with the question "Why? What does this add as an adaptation of that story?"
IKR!!!! It genuinely makes you wonder what was going through the minds of the people who assembled this trailer and even more baffling, the ones who signed off on releasing it to the entire world. You’d think that at some point, at least one brave soul would have pulled someone aside and quietly suggested a rethink. Guess not. It just shows what they really think of the viewer. Disappointing to say the least.🥲
@user-pq3lu6cd2l Yeah, though it's the same people, who decided, that the line of "Noone can stand between my men and home, not even me" was a quality choice, so there's that
Exactly. Who is it for? Nothing about it evokes feelings of Greek mythology, the Bronze Age or the Mediterranean. The setting and casting look like they're in a Robin Hood movie.
7:04 Just to note, Achilles' armor actually has divine origin as it was mady by Hephaestus, but I believe the character in the trailer that is wearing the weird armor is Agamemnon, not Achilles.
Lol as a black man, when you mentioned the low tapered fade on the boring character from the boring LOTR Amazon show I literally laughed out loud. Thank you for that!
@ChryskylodonInstitute just because I dont mind does not mean I won't be critical. Perhaps I am using that phrase wrong. If someone were adapting the bible into film I am not going to be critical of changes the director chooses to make simply because its different. However if they decide to give Jesus a superman costume, it is going to massively break my immersion. Its possible to respect the sorce material and still be different.
It just looks bad. Most of the costumes look rented. And batman armor looks cheesy and dumb. I'm all for stylization. They could have copied the insane style of vase paintings and I would have been excited. But this is like... the least possible effort.
@patreekotime4578 Well, I have news for you. Most of the costumes are rented from previous period pieces. The Agamemnon armour looks FIRE in the battle of Troy scene shown in the Theatre exclusive prologue
The anachronisms aren't my biggest gripe in the trailer. Shakespeare used Elizabethan anachronisms for Ancient Greece and Rome. Italian Renaissance art depicted ancient peoples in Italian Renaissance clothing. Even the mythological/legendary works themselves (looking at you two, medieval Arthurian Lit. and the Aenead) use anachronisms for the times they depicted. I SUPER agree with your point about immersion, though. A fictional world needs internally consistent logic, ESPECIALLY fantastical stories. "If the dragon breathes fire, fine. If the knight's horse starts breathing fire, you can't just shrug and say 'dragons aren't real'." Great breakdown as always!
Yes! In fact I'd assume the Odyssey and Iliad themselves have anachronism considering Homer was writing about events centuries before his time. Still i just dont think this was very well done.
Except, as Stephen Fry has reminded us in another video, Homer accurately describes in The Iliad what Late Bronze Age armour looked like. Either examples must have still been kicking around hundreds of years later, or, more likely, the memory was preserved as oral tradition. Not that it matters one jot to me - I'll accept the argument that a later time might well described an earlier one anachronistically. What I'm more concerned about is this movie not being another "Odysseus as superhero" flick. He was more a charming, cunning conman than anything - the creator of many tricks and ruses. He deceived others to his own benefit whenever necessary. He's more Baron Munchhausen than he is Batman. I would like to see him talk to the shade of Achilles, who regrets his lust for glory and eternal fame, but I doubt that element of the story will be included either. It might have been cool to have dragged back Brad Pitt to play the role - despite the other flaws of the movie Troy.
Sometimes, I like to imagine filmmakers excitedly waiting for their favorite history RUclipsr to analyze their film. Like, "yes, she noticed (insert obscure detail)!!" And sometimes I imagine them sitting there, a little bummed, going, "yeah, I guess that's fair... it does look like a batman helmet."
When I first saw it, I thought he was supposed to be the personification of Ares and it made some sense. But being that he's playing Agamemnon, it's just silly.
My thought process between the description of the trailer and the trailer itself went as follows: "Ah yes, The Odyssey, where are hero encounters witches, syrens and a Cyclops. Are you going to show us any of those things in this trailer Mr Nolan? No? Just two minutes of Matt Damon looking sad. Okay... cool..."
And I'm kinda sure the only stops in the movie will be the cyclops, the syrens and Circé, because those are the ones people are mostly familiar with. Maybe add one more for good measure. I'll be really surprise if they include the lotus eaters, or Charybdis and Scylla.
To be fair, the first trailer is more of a teaser - the entire thing is set up to establish anticipation. They'll show more of the monsters and such in later trailers.
lol why would they do that and spoil the movie. I am glad who ever cut the trailer did it and not you want cause you clearly don’t know what you are talking about and would lessen the actual movie.
A friend of mine, who's done lengthy study of material culture of the Spanish Colonial Southwest in both archival holdings and of surviving examples, once told me that he's, more than once, been approached by production companies seeking advice to 'properly' kit out, say, the peoples of a Zorro production. Aaaaand more than once, he told me, the production company reps nodded politely, listened attentively, then gone with their costuming departments' "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." scenery folks; whose points of reference have probably been the artwork on the walls of their favorite Mexican restaurant.
Thank you for making these wonderful points. I study Greek and Roman history, and I have master's in history with a focus on the Iliad / Bronze Age Greece. I was hoping that this film would be fantastic, but the trailer had me racking my brain on why he mad ethe choices that he did. I also loved that you point out that there is a difference between fantasy and mythology.
When the troops are running down the hill I'm imagining Oydsseus shouting "Run away, run away!" whilst being pursued by a killer rabbit. Mmhhh, maybe I've had too much coffee this morning? Anyway, a very entertaining take on this. I can't wait to see your review of the actual movie.😀
As someone who has worked in entertainmend industry for 3 years, you're right about the inconsistency and the "too-sleekness". I don't know much about history, but listening to this actually did allow me to learn something new, and looking and the image alone I can tell there is a huge disconnection. I really appreciate you doing this, cause a lot of times the production comes very fast, and even faster in films from what I've heard, especially in concept stage. We unfortunately tend to work under tight deadline, and whatever that is "cool" enough and still fit to the brief will get passed on. There are less discussion and "arguments" why we wanted to look this way in concept stage, but usually our client will think otherwise and they hired us anyway
This is not just an ordinary piece of fiction, this is Greek cuture, this is so rooted in what ancient greeks truly believed, it's a great piece of litterature, it's based on real history and it is beautiful as it is, no need to change it, it is perfect for any time and culture. By changing it you cheapen the story, because you cannot upgrade something that is already perfect, don't fix it if it isn't broken. I hope it bombs at te box office.
I saw this trailer in the cinema before another movie and was so confused when the name came on screen at the end of the trailer. I thought I was watching a trailer for some kind of dark Viking movie
The character in Batman armor is supposed to be Agamemnon. Seriously. The actor is Benny Safdie. And why are they wearing pants but have their arms uncovered? Must've skipped leg day. Thanks for another great video!
It's quite an achievement to make some of the world's most picturesque vistas shot on location with the highest resolution cameras look like Dunkirk after 4 weeks of rain and bombings. At least he might do something MINDBLOWING and never before seen again like playing the footage in reverse! Oh wow!
Not gonna lie. To me the costumes felt, well, costumy. Also, the trailer itself felt like one of those fan made trailers where they use clips from different other movies to make a mock trailer. The latter was mostly when Tom Holland showed up followed by Anne Hathaway (doesn’t help that Zendaya’s also in this). It somehow doesn’t feel like a real movie, but something someone thougt could be cool.
Like so much of the Odyssey/Iliad too is about the material culture of Ancient Greece; I mean passages upon passages about the origins of armor and weapons, and who is trading what for what c’mon
and pretty thorough descriptions too, like the Achilles armour... and I've never seen anyone use these descriptions, even though they're not just historical, but also cool and pretty!
I did find it a tad strange when I heard part of this film was shot in the Highlands. I’m having trouble thinking of any part of it that remotely resembles Greece? They did also shoot a fair bit in Morocco, so hopefully those bits look good. I’m not holding my breath though, it all looks quite lazily constructed so far.
Using the LOTR trilogy as an example is fantastic, because we know how much care, thought, and detail was put into many elements of the design. E.g. the fact that orcs wear pieces of armour from humans and elves because they do not create, they just destroy and take. I would have been much happier with designs in the Odyssey that showed some actual inspiration and thought, even if it was wildly fantastical and not at all historically based, if it at least looked unified in aesthetics and showcased that the designers were actually putting some real thought and care into what they did. Everything so far just looks lazy.
@russergee49 This. It’s not that it’s anachronistic, it looks bad and thoughtless. Why are those helmets so ugly? Why is there no hint of bronze or color? The designs feel like bad ripoffs of the typical designs for anything vaguely Greco-Roman. There is no thought or care put into it.
@jaysonacquah5271 The artists and designers have to follow the director's vision (and time/budget constraints). If the director says: "I don't care about historicity and I haven't included R&D into the schedule I put forward to the studio execs. Just give me something that looks like a superhero blockbuster, and make it quick", they can't do much about it. I'm sure they have more than enough creativity, expertise and passion to deliver something fantastic. It's just that Nolan didn't want them to bother.
@AW-uv3cbtrue true it actually sad but im still hyped for the movie idk...I love greek mythology and christopher nolan hasn't really disappointed me before so😭
Nolan's films always are pretty grey and drab. Its like he can't imagine a world that is colorful and realistic at the same time. Even the end dream sequence in Inception was just a giant grey city.
@MsAstrius Agree. For historical movies, he needs to check in with Stone's "Alexander" and the HBO TV series "Rome" for colorful, realistic and brutal.
@benjalucian1515I second this! HBO's Rome wasn't entirely accurate either, but gave the feeling of historicity, if not historical accuracy, not in spite of but BECAUSE of the bright, vivid colors, the chiaroscuro of sun drenched exteriors with flame-lit interiors. Brutal but not boring, dramatic and NOT DULL!
There was a (fellow, sadly) Italian guy who wrote an entire book to support his hypothesis that both the Iliad and the Odyssey take place in the Atlantic/North Sea. You read that right: the bloody ATLANTIC and the NORTH SEA. The theory had some attention in the public sphere (and zero academically) but it almost feels like Nolan would support it :D
I had the very same reactions as you when I first saw the trailer : THAT armour, THAT boat, the dark cinematography, the light complexions, all those things that make it so unrealistic in relation to the Bronze Age setting of the Odyssey! Oh dear... The only thing that would be plausible is the woodlands, considering Greece was a lot more wooded at that time, albeit not with what looks like Scottish weather...
That helmet took me out. In Troy, there wasn't anything that took me out. Plenty of stuff I could nitpick on, but nothing that just psychically slapped me upside my face.
Yeah, I have my nitpicks about the mythological accuracy in Troy, but at least they made an effort with the movie and it looks fantastic. This literally looks like Scotland.
The way you built up this defence of Greek mythology as something deserving of respect and then capped it with "what the fuck is this?" was just perfect! Absolute poetry!
I am so glad to hear your thoughts on the trailer. I felt like I was going crazy seeing everyone repeating the same line of, "It's fantasy! Who cares about historical accuracy?" I think that how we portray the past matters because it also reflects our current understanding of the world and our place in the world and our relation to history and the passage of time. The trailer felt like such a vibes-based approach to cultural production. We can take whatever we want and mash it up however we please. As long as it looks cool and is entertaining who cares what it means? There is something troubling about this incoherent pilfering of cultural artefacts, especially in the context of The Odyssey. It's the story of a victorious soldier returning home from war. Are these varied aesthetics meant to be the spoils of war that we then display in the museum that is this movie? This is Nolan's follow up to Oppenheimer, a war movie followed by the return from war, all during a renewed era of American imperialism. I'm sure people will say, "It's just a movie, let people enjoy things!" But I am concerned about the implications of these aesthetic choices.
When I first saw people complaining about the trailer, my first thought was "It's based on a myth, who cares how historically accurate it is?" Now that I have actually seen it...well, I think the naysayers might have a point.
Nowadays it is frowned upon to just take a piece of someone else's cultural heritage and do whatever you like with it, and rightly so. Except for Greece. Weirdly enough, Greek cultural heritage still seems to be up for grabs. Imagine Nolan doing something similar with the Mahabharata.
Out of the box theory: Nolan loves messing with time, so perhaps this is more of a 'reimagining' of the Odyssey. Perhaps Odysseus' mystical journey is also a temporal journey in this film and that actually IS a Viking longship and the' Laestrygonians' they encounter are actually Vikings, because they're sailing through time to get home. This would also explain how the hell one of their soldiers managed to get his hands on a set of Party-City costume armour.....
@conorhal That would actually be kind of interesting! Yet why not make that more obvious in the trailer? If most folks go in just thinking it's going to be a straight adaptation of The Odyssey, they're going to feel played in some way, imo.
would love to watch a reaction video to the old miniseries of the Oddesy from the 90's. It had Isabela Rosselini as Athena and Armand Asante as Odysseus, so at least people of Mediterranean decent as Greeks.
![The Quest for Umbreon | Pokemon Grumplocke [19]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D1gzIl9vEYA/mqdefault.jpg)
Sorry, but did everyone just all forget about the ancient Greek god of 3D printing, Xerox? Because his importance in the Homeric epics clearly explains Batamemnon’s armor.
Batamemnon!😂❤ cheers
Hahaha
Xerox was a persian god, look at the amount of their armies. :)
🤣🤣🤣
I don't know why it's inconceivable that Mount Olympus doesn't have advanced technology? They are gods
LOTR used real armourers and bladesmiths in the costume design. This makes everything look real and fits the setting.
And those video of handmade chain mail. Years of making!
for the main characters at least 😂😂
WETA workshop has some very talented craftspeople
Even Gladiator managed to look more convincing than this. Same goes for every other sword and sandal movie from the 00s. And the Spartacus show.
So did The Odyssey.
The armor looks plastic… because it most likely is plastic. It’s the matte finish and smooth, clean surface that gets me. It looks oddly cheap and like a Halloween costume
once upon a time prop makers knew how to make their cheap plastic costumes and props look like worn and used metal. Now I guess they don't bother
@dash4800 They still do, but hiring them involves contracting with unions, and the big studios don't like doing that.
100% plastic.
It looks like 3-D printed carbon fibre
@dash4800and on top of that cameras are far more clear and therefore show the defects alot better.
We have British people in Northern European boats wearing Roman decorated Superhero armor for our Greek Legend....
FILMED IN SCOTLAND???
It certainly looks like it was filmed in Scotland. I'm a Greek mythology addict since childhood and I don't know why anyone looking for a sword & sandal fix would watch this. Hercules and Xena looked more Mediterranean than this.
Oh buddy, wait until I tell you that that isn't actually Zeus. It's an actor who's pretending to be someone else-now not many people now that.
@fujifilm5127holy shit no way, I had no idea, it's almost like we like it when the director's telling of a story resonates with the story though, who would have thought?
I just thought i'd be getting the Odyssey, you know a Greek story
Sounds kinda like every movie of the genre produced outside of Italy or Greece
@vanyadolly Agreed!
The one thing I've not seen anyone else comment on is:
Why the hell is Telemachus, a Greek *prince* , in barbarian *trousers* ?
THIS! Omg I screamed when I saw ALLTHE TROUSERS. and why the hell is a prince dressed so plain and drab. Where’s the royal bling?!
@kellyhudson6452 you screamed?
@Jason_StonewellProbably.
Thank you! You have no idea how much that bothered me.
@kellyhudson6452 It's like they don't get why we watch sword and sandal movies to begin with. If I wanted pants I'd watch a movie about medieval northern europe.
Ah yes. Greece. The great Mediterranean country that sits right next to Norway.
As a Greek myself, I found this hilarious. :D :D
🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂
@VoidDWG even the, Bronze age Norwegian ships looked different than the Viking Age ships to boot.
Miklagard
From an art historical context, that guy looks like an AI hallucination ❤😂
This is a tragically on-point summary.
well yeah, wouldn't be surprised if they used AI to generate the concept images all this is based on
@archigallus I think Nolan is the type who would commit self-deletion than feel like AI can share credit for his work, even if he’s the only one who knows. I just think this will be his first genuinely mediocre movie.
@archigallusit seriously looks like it was.
@HelennaRose lol god you’re right, it’s like Nolan looked up a “if Nolan directed The Odyssey” AI trailer for inspiration
You make a very good argument here. It’s easy to blow off mythological tales as pure fantasy, but they are stories OF THE PEOPLE, so it makes more sense to be historically accurate so you’re representing how the people ACTUALLY looked and lived. Hopefully it’s a good film, but I’m with you that my faith in humanity is also in decline, so it’s hard to expect Hollywood to care about historical accuracy.
Even when it comes to fantasy, the “who cares, it’s _fantasy_” line is trite; as discussed with the LotR comparisons, fantasy (and sci-fi) works best when given some grounding in reality. Ironically, such grounding enables the fantastical elements to be believable, and thus more, dare I say, realistic, than if there was no such grounding.
The Odyssey is a story recited by Homer who lived in the Classical Greek era. He probably had no knowledge of the culture and time of Mycenae Greeks outside of some fragments. The question is not if ancient Mycenae approved but if HOMER would approve. As a poet he care more about narratives and themes and not about Spartan Batman.
@yonghominale8884 Outisde of sculpture, art of Homer's period isn't really about 'photorealism' (and let's be honest, sculptors have an interest in making their living clients look good in marble, too). I have ti imagine that he'd probably be on board with anything that brings his audience in and keeps them interested. And he is, after all, a poet rather than a historian, which means the rhythm and flow is probably more important than going full Tom Clancy Gear 'Tism on the audience.
@yonghominale8884 Fair point. I think at a certain point it comes to down to ‘coolness’ taking precedence over accuracy.
@lordofuzkulak8308 "Fantasy is a natural human activity. It certainly does not destroy Reason; and it does not either blunt the appetite for, nor obscure the perception of, scientific verity. On the contrary, the keener the reason, the better fantasy it will make."
J. R. R. Tolkien
Is- is that helmet Mewing?
😂
Agamewmnon. Achads.
Best comment 😂
modeled after the Titan Gigachaddeus.
@90s-Merdoc😂
My hot take is that movies about Greek myths should feature Greek / Mediterranean actors or at least actors who look like they are Greek / Mediterranean.
💯 it would come across much better if they had at least main characters who were Mediterranean instead of going for big names and somehow getting the most Northern European cast imaginable. I have just 1 Greek grandparent and you can still see it in my features; we're pretty distinctive.
Jason Mantzoukas looks the part for Odysseus and could surely act as the most cunning of kings. If there are no actresses for Penelope who look like Francesca Stavrakopoulou then give Francesca Stavrakopoulou a crash course in acting.
Even Troy 20 years ago managed to cast Eric Bana. We get Matt Damon.
They would never use actors that aren't insanely well-known. They're too scared
@vanyadolly Brad Pitt played Achilles. Blonde hair, blue eyes, and was the star of the movie.
Remember Troy was "historically accurate" and based in reality.
This cracked me up. When I first saw the trailer, I immediately thought, “Oh look, ancient Batman.” Thank you for confirming my thought. Also, I can’t unsee the Chad chin now. 😂
Oh it's 100% Batman and it's 100% on purpose. If you want to rabbithole yourself for hours, start watching videos about how Tenet has parallels with Inception and this or that prop from Memento shows up in The Dark Knight. There is a whole subculture of Nolan fans out there who just get an enormous kick out of finding this stuff and pointing it out to each other in long iceberg videos. This is for them, history, mythology and immersion be d---d. I'm not really mad about it. It's cheesy. It's not for me. It's for them. And I'm convinced it's on purpose.
I kind of feel like Hollywood has spent so much time making superhero movies that they are incapable of making anything else.
So true
Yes, we want to see more interesting ensemble casts of flawed but talented people, teaming up on interesting problems. That doesn’t have to be a superhero movie all the time, it can absolutely be Mama Mia.
Or maybe that's a sign you need to watch more movies or stop going into movies with an "everything is superhero Hollywood " lense. Otherwise I'd intrigued to know how films like Sinners, Weapons, The Naked Gun, and Zootopia 2 are the result of Hollywood Superhero film making.
@ultilinium8They feed you so much garbage that you think those average movies are good.
@ultilinium8 wild to include two franchise movies, one of which is a Pixar sequel, with Weapons and Sinners as counterexamples of superhero/ip/franchise filmmaking. many of the costumes in Sinners were originally intended for the mcu blade movie. Both Sinners and Weapons are led by marvel actors. Sinners' director directed the only Marvel movie to get a Best Picture nomination.
We don't require historical accuracy. We want historical authenticity. There's a difference.
Exactly. I know I don't have the expertise to tell whether all details of a costume are realistic or if the furniture is right. But I do know that plastic has no place in ancient Greece! And that there are so many real-life artefacts they could take their inspiration from, even if they took liberties with it. Just finding those little details that are a nod to actual historical things is so fun when you're watching a movie.
@vodkavecz speak for yourself. I want both.
@Mogwai786 Man you're gonna hate even the actual Oddysey then, because its fiction. Why are you even here?
@battleoid2411 uh, actually myth. Just because it isn't factual doesn't mean it can't be accurate & authentic to the source material. Like, LOTR can still be inaccurate AND inauthentic to the source material even though it's fiction. The video you're commenting on LITERALLY made this point for you and you don't seem to get it. Why are you even here?
@battleoid2411 it is true that it is a fiction. But there is still a context. The person who wrote it inspired himself from a Setup, Environment, Culture and Belief you would only find in ancient Greece. It my make therefore sense for people to ask at least a Greek accurate representation. It being a fiction doesn't mean that Nolan can just do whatever he wants and we have to accept it.
It’s very disappointing that they shot a lot of this in Scotland, filmmakers are forgetting about how important it is to immerse people in the setting of a movie, they are so used to green screens, they forget about being on location. How the sun feels and looks shining directly on you while in the Mediterranean is very different than the way it looks and feels when filtered through endless clouds and fog.
This is one of the biggest sticking points for me. It LOOKS like it's set in Scotland, and they're certainly dressed for that weather. Why would I watch this if I'm looking to be immersed in a Greek epic?
@vanyadolly It's an utterly insane artistic / cinematographic choice, and I honestly can't think of any real reason for said choice aside from either A) sheer stupidity, or B) to sUbVerT eXpEcTaTiOnS (which is frankly cringe and redundant by this point). Everything about the Scottish landscape and climate is the complete antithesis to the Mediterranean - they're the polar opposites of the European continent. This of course translates into the 'vibe' of both places, and the associations we have with them that stems from their individual history, folklore, and societies. Most people, particularly Europeans, can readily recognise Scotland and it immediately springs to mind thoughts of stags, whisky, cosy fireplaces, bleak and wind-swept yet ruggedly beautiful peaks and valleys, stags, hairy coos, and Celtic mythology. It's everything that the Mediterranean, and Greek Mythology, isn't. Imagine making a movie about Ancient Scottish / Celtic folklore or mythology, and filming most of it in the Cyclades islands in Greece lol. It'd look ridiculous, right? That's how Nolan and co. look here.
Damn, and I had just been talking myself into thinking that this wasn't Scotland!
Me a few minute earlier: Just because my brain immediatly went "Scotland" without ever having been there, doesn’t mean it is Scotland! It's not like all of Scotland even looks like that and there could absolutly be areas in the Mediterranean that are lush and verdant
....Turns out, it looks like the Brave movie because it is in Scotland 😅
@h@harrypike731 spot on! As soon as I saw the trailer, I just said “nope!”
Everyone wants to be A Knight's Tale without understanding why it worked in that film
Also honestly there were a few surprisingly decent helmets in that movie directly based on actual surviving 15th century helmets. Like one I could literally tell was a direct replica!
This is the best comment i've seen in a long time!
The trailer to me felt like Nolan (or his studio) trying to emulate Villeneuve's Dune aesthetic with sea-tones instead of sand-tones.
Reckon you're bang on
Great point!
Maybe Nolan is jealous because Villeneuve is being regarded as high art director rather than merely blockbuster director like Nolan.
I was wondering wtf could have been the motivation to even do this movie...
@saukibasyamaybe not jealous but inspired
It's so important to distinguish fantasy from mythology. Too often are the two conflated. Truth to be told the myth of the Trojan War (and the very real event that might inspired it) is a glimpse into a early stage in human history that needs to be treated with a little more care. The funniest part is that Nolan seemed to have made a career of creating "realistic" interpretations of outlandish concepts like superheroes, time travel and dream manipulation; yet his take on a real period like the bronze age has almost nothing to do with it.
This. Mythology is composed of the foundational stories of a culture, often exaggerated or made up, but foundational. It's hard to understate how important the Iliad and Odyssey were to ancient Greece, but a key definition of their culture was worshipping Zeus and being able to read Homer in the original form. To know those stories was to be Greek in the ancient world, especially since they were spread across the whole Mediterranean by the 700s. Respect that these stories came from a specific world, time, and place.
Tolkien was inspired by the Poetic Eddas and wanted to give create the anglish epic saga that he felt was missing. Most modern fantasy stories have _some_ element of poetic epic in them, usually without even knowing. Transfiguring _The Odyssey_ into a _LOTR_ style fantasy saga is possible, _EPIC the musical_ did some of that in rhyme (somewhat)! Even in China they _finally_ figured out how to do epic fantasies by going back to their own source material & making something meaningful, from the heart, instead of the golden fonted slop they've been making for years. _Ne Zha 2_ broke records & _Creation of the Gods_ (2023) is the closest thing to LOTR I've seen in a long time... This though...
@Hasselia Interesting, I haven't heard of those movies before. I fear I'm trapped in an American-centric algorithmic spiral. I'll definitely going to check them out
@GlindraugNhe Zha 2 was the highest grossing movie of last year, I believe? I’ve heard good things about it.
Yes. It's baffling and it's disappointing. Even though I don't always agreed with him, I always assumed Nolan to be one to challenge himself creatively, and that seemed true enough early in his career.
But this film is looking like standard Hollywood, even with the practical effects. Trying to be more period authentic would've been the sense of innovation that this film, and Nolan himself, need.
13:36
That's an interesting point. If Nolan wanted to make a dark war movie, why not the Iliad?
@algi1 probably because Troy was already made, and it's popular.
@junjunjamore7735 In addition, I feel like Nolan wants to be seen as intellectual (although his movies aren't, really). Odysseus is one of the biggest heroes known for his intelligence. And in that regard the Odyssey (also with references like Ulysses by James Joyce) seems to be the more prestigious material than another war movie like Troy.
@lordbuddybear I am 12 and this was deep.
@lordbuddybear What do you find to be intellectually lacking about Nolan's films?
@hekatetrivia1727 How are people supposed to point to an absence? There is just really nothing of interest there. I don't think anyone who has seen many films can really like his stuff at all. He has no visual sense and nothing to say, seemingly. In his historical films he tends to fail to produce any sense of the importance of the events. His sci fi stuff feels like juvenilia.
if the cybertruck was armour
Im not greek but im mediterran and the fact that they didnt even bother to get a single mediterranean actor and instead the whole cast is anglosaxon tells me everything I need to know, they just dont care
Of course they don't care, they just want to milk a famous name.
Christopher Nolan is in danger of morphing into Ridley Scott when it comes to historical accuracy. In fact it baffles me how we put more effort into making literal fantasy (LOTR) look more real and believable than actual history.
Is say he's almost there.
Eh, the Lord of the Rings movies were something special. They were made by legit Tolkien nerds who went out of the their way to make something good and true to the stories and put years of thought and hard work into it, and I'd say they're the exception that proves the rule.
@zenogias01 IDK, I know I sound old by saying this but they just don't put the effort into movies that they used to. there were a lot of great movies coming out at that time (late 90s/early 00s), but recently, for me, it feels more like a pleasant surprise than an expectation to come across a good movie
@mischr13 They're all too busy chasing Marvel money (and cheaping out on that to increase profit margins).
@sulijoo The Odyssey is not history. Odysseus did not exist. The Odyssey did not happen. Scylla and Charybdis aren't real. Getting upset that someone is presenting a stylized version of a fantasy story is very, very, very, very silly.
Not every director needs to as obsessively historically accurate as Robert Eggers, but c'mon, at least copy his homework a bit.
Effects is really next level. Nosferatu slaps
Agreed. Can't wait for his Werewolf to come out. His movies make me feel like I'm transported not just to a time and place, but to a mindset of the people living there. And I'm not saying every movie needs to be like that, but would be nice to not have to rely just on him for that, poor fellow. Plus that Hollywood Marvel aesthetic Nolan is serving here is just so... boring!
If you're talking about The Northman that movie absolutely not accurate 😅
@AW-uv3cb capturing the mindset of the people at that time is my FAVOURITE aspect of Robert Eggers's work. The Northman truly blew me away in this regard
@musstakrakish historians would disagree with you. The only thing that was exaggerated was the spiritual aspect but even that had accuracies.
Once I saw the armour my interest for seeing this film vanished. We have Greek armour. We have pictures of Greek armour. And most people have never seen it. It would be as new to the viewing audience. Rather this absurdity.
The refreshment alone would make it a must watch,now must be avoided
Lazy absurdity is correct!
What annoys me is that when they do "Ancient Greek" anything it's always using classic Greek-style armor, or at least a Hollywood interpretation of it. It's like people just expect that if it takes place in the Greek world it must feature Corinthian helmets and bronze cuirasses and linothorax instead of bronze-age-style armor.
@zenogias01 Most folks don't grasp how long Greek culture existed and how diverse it was. They see it as some monolithic entity that never changed.
@zenogias01 I believe Oliver Stone did a good stab at it with linen armor in his movie "Alexander".
That armor is the manifestation of Nolan's ego
@Eidos2012 he's a dope. I've always been extremely underwhelmed by his vapid, pretentious, self serious movies. Im sure there's an exception to that, but give me Burton's Batman, or a war movie with ANY character development, over Nolan.
@jugo1944 YES.
That's like Vikings cruising around in a modern Corvette
Is it just me or does a film actually about the adventures of handsome Squidword sound amazing?
Make it broody. Hire Robert Pattison.
The Handsome Squiliad
12:24 I live in the Mediterenian region. Right now it is overcast with dark clouds, it will propably rain later, and the view outside my window which is a typical city view is still more colorful than the trailer was.
I can excuse inaccuricies but man at least make it look good
I'm from Finland and this movie looks very close to home to me.
I live in the Seattle region. Right now it is overcast with dark clouds, it will probably rain later, and the view outside my window which is a typical city view is still more colorful than the trailer was.
I think a lot of filmmakers have somehow forgotten what the actual real world looks like when they aren't looking through a camera.
@Rystefn Bring bad GOOD color grading. Leave the twilight filter in the 2000s 😭🙏
I'm so disappointed that there're no Greek actors for Greek stories. Christopher Nolan could've cast unknown actors like we see in his movie Dunkirk instead of casting established movie stars.
Except for Tom Holland as Telemachus, I do feel all the other cast members are unnecessary
Who would you pick? Jennifer Aniston and Tine Fey are the major American actors of Greek descent
I am not familiar with any Greek actors from Greece, but I am sure they are there
They don't have to be major actors. We're talking about small parts. Also he barely filmed for a week in Greece. Feels disrespectful in every aspect
@birds-of-rhiannon Doesn't have to be well know names, f*ck they could pull ones that come from the Mediterranean for all anyone cares... the reality is that despite what Hollywood believe A-lister names doesn't guaranty profit if at all, if that were the case Dolittle would've killed it as a movie same with flop movies with A-list galore as a marketing ploy, much more sincere effort come from actors who actually have to prove they can go toe to toe with the big leagues rather than an established actor who more than likely will phone their performance in.
Yes, Mediterranean type brown actors would have been fine. But people with a north European look is just wrong. Jarring. These are folk heroes of a very particular place and time. One in which north Europe paleness was known about and was commented on. I think Odysseus was lighter haired but in the context of Greece and Anatolia not Britain and Scandinavia.
Greek here: The Greeks revered the Iliad and the Odyssey because these epics were the greatest polemics to their gods. As naturally anarchic people, basically the most anarchic culture ever created on earth (famous for not bowing to kings and having citizen assembly in every city), they loved stories that attacked the ruling class, that defamed the immortals.
Thank you for this video, as a Greek person I feel very defeated seeing everyone in Hollywood treat mythology as a fanfiction playground... Nolan wants to get the money and recognition from making a film about a story of a people he doesn't care to accurately or respectfully depict.
I feel the same way tbh; I'm happy if people are interested in mythology, but I really feel like greek people are getting erased from our own stories
Every single artistic choice in Nolan's Odyssey so far has been absolutely baffling to me lmao💀
And it's not like I'm pretending complete historical accuracy with no artistic licences, far from it, but it's honestly kinda bordering on offensive to the viewers' intelligence at this point, ngl (the Viking ship is particularely egregious).
And worst of all, it just looks uninteresting.
Also maybe a hot take, but the "nordicification" of a Mediterranean world feels, to me as someone from a Mediterranean country, pretty offensive and potentially racist, ngl (the Parthenon's marbles mention is spot on).
At least they are in Europe
Also, the story is that he went all over the place for 20 years. And I bet the movie has primarily Mediterranean backgrounds
Brother he filmed at the Highlands!! Do you know where the Highlands are??? Not in the freaking Mediterranean...
@birds-of-rhiannon You realize though that Troy isn't in europe but in asia?
Exactly
thats what i thought too. i mean im not mediterranean but goddamn how ignorant and arrogant do you have to be not onlyto mix time periods, not only to completely seem to ave no regard for the quality of your costumes, but MIX cultures. probably not doing shits for research and then pumping it out under such a big name whilst the film is a mockery snd racist at worst, and at the best aimply inaccurate as hell. it genuinely feels like blatant whitewashing. i can only hope nolan doesnt actually have sinister reasons behind this, but even if this is ignorance, so many people are gonna watch it and just not know its false unless they research (which few do) (sorry for ranting udner your comment :p)
"Handsome Squidward cosplaying Greek Batman"!!! Should that be my next Halloween costume? 😄
I am so glad someone roasted this trailer. I couldn't even get through the first few seconds of it without feeling like my eyes should be bleeding.
😂😂😂😂
Handsome squidward playing ancient greek batman is the best summary of this abysmal adaptation.
I've never been so disappointed in a movie trailer before, truly
The viking ship bit reminds me of the discussion about William Wallace wearing a kilt and celtic face paint in Braveheart. That's like The Godfather but all the mafiosos are dressed in Roman togas.
I, Claudius moment
Not kidding. I'd like a Paterfamilias version.
At least for Braveheart the kilt and bodypaint was associated with the Scots. This is associating Ancient Greek culture with medieval Vikings and 20th Century comic book costumes. Not even good ones - cheap plastic knock-off versions of fantasy armour. And the worst crime of all is that it’s all ugly and uncinematic.
And for some reason all speaking with a random unplacable but possibly south african accent.
Braveheart was a hoot 😂
We got Temu ancient Greece before gta VI
Excellent description :D
😂 on god fam I CAN NOT 😂 I’m dead twin DIABOLICAL 😂
Lmaooooo 😭😭😭
Would that make gta6 miami or the other way around...I grew up in the cesspool of the city
The ONE opportunity we had to see Mycenaean Dendra Panoply armor on the silver screen 😭
To be fair none of them would be running around wearing the full panoply - it's heavy and cumbersome to wear outside of a real pitched battle. Just for going out and not expecting heavy combat they'd just wear the cuirass and helmet.
@zenogias01 Also, having looked into it as a potential topic for my thesis, the arms and armour described in Homer’s works reflect Archaic period Greek arms and equipment, not the Mycenean era arms that the alleged time period of the Trojan War would suggest. The only plausible reference I know of that might imply an ancient Mycenean armour is a reference to a boar-helmet, and we do have archaeological evidence of helmets either decorated with or made of boar tusks in that period. As such, I’d prefer Archaic Greek armour and as much I do sincerely love and obsess over the Dendra panoply, most audiences would probably think it’s pretty lame looking (sadly based on firsthand experience).
@heilmodrhinnheimski Thing is both the Boar's Tusk helmet and Dendra Panoply were outdated by the time of the Trojan War so they wouldn't really be appropriate either. They came from a time 200 years prior.
Though, yes, Homer did describe a Boar's Tusk helmet so it's not out of bounds that there were some relics hanging around.
My expectations were on the floor and Nolan chose to dig straight down.
Actually, those ships are not a mistake: during Troy War the Bronze Age Norse ship sailed to the Aegean Sea and was sunk by Napoleon, who shot its nose off with a cannon.
Flashback to Nolan’s insistence that the Oppenheimer test bomb HAD to be done w practical effects. Rendering a “nuclear” explosion visually identical to a gas explosion because it was merely that, a real (controlled) gas explosion. Nolan should learn to take direction better.
Exactly! These awful choices are particularly egregious from someone with a record for trying to be as accurate as possible.
For real. The explosion was completely underwhelming for being a depiction of the most iconic explosion in the history of the world -_-
@mads597 I don't understand the complaint. The test scene was very effective, and they sold aspects of it with editing, coloring, ect.
You'd prefer a CGI attempt that's more accurate but doesn't feel like that?
the problem I had with Oppenheimer is that it did look underwhelming, it felt as though everything was leading up to something big but what we got just looked like a gas explosion, I rewatched it just now and what I think still stands...
my personal favourite depiction of the Trinity Test has to be from Twin Peaks, you get a sense of the scale, it doesn't cut away, it lingers, it fully shows you the horror of the bomb espcially with the music, it gives you everything you need to understand what the bomb is...
I feel like the leadup to the explosion in Oppenheimer is better than the explosion itself, maybe the movie would have been better had they not shown the explosion at all and just lingered on everyones reactions, tho maybe audiences wouldn't have been happy about that
If you want to see how it should have looked, check out David Lynch's nuclear blast.
You articulated all of my own thoughts on this better than I could. I can’t really understand why Hollywood chooses to make “historical”/mythological movies with so little accuracy or authenticity when the stories that actually exist and the cultural aspects they discard are MORE interesting than what they end up making! It’s disappointing! Authentic (as opposed to totally accurate, necessarily) costumes, color palette, scenery…these would be so much more exciting.
I actually had to double check if the trailer I was watching was from an official channel, because it looked like a fanmade trailer at first glance. Without even getting into the idea of historical accuracy, it simply looks so BORING and just left me with the question "Why? What does this add as an adaptation of that story?"
IKR!!!! It genuinely makes you wonder what was going through the minds of the people who assembled this trailer and even more baffling, the ones who signed off on releasing it to the entire world. You’d think that at some point, at least one brave soul would have pulled someone aside and quietly suggested a rethink. Guess not. It just shows what they really think of the viewer. Disappointing to say the least.🥲
@user-pq3lu6cd2l Yeah, though it's the same people, who decided, that the line of "Noone can stand between my men and home, not even me" was a quality choice, so there's that
Exactly. Who is it for? Nothing about it evokes feelings of Greek mythology, the Bronze Age or the Mediterranean. The setting and casting look like they're in a Robin Hood movie.
7:04 Just to note, Achilles' armor actually has divine origin as it was mady by Hephaestus, but I believe the character in the trailer that is wearing the weird armor is Agamemnon, not Achilles.
Lol as a black man, when you mentioned the low tapered fade on the boring character from the boring LOTR Amazon show I literally laughed out loud. Thank you for that!
I dont mind creative liberty but this is Jarring
then seem like you actually mind creative liberty
@ChryskylodonInstitute just because I dont mind does not mean I won't be critical. Perhaps I am using that phrase wrong.
If someone were adapting the bible into film I am not going to be critical of changes the director chooses to make simply because its different. However if they decide to give Jesus a superman costume, it is going to massively break my immersion. Its possible to respect the sorce material and still be different.
It just looks bad. Most of the costumes look rented. And batman armor looks cheesy and dumb. I'm all for stylization. They could have copied the insane style of vase paintings and I would have been excited. But this is like... the least possible effort.
@ChryskylodonInstitute there needs to be some creativity for it to count as creative liberty.
@patreekotime4578 Well, I have news for you. Most of the costumes are rented from previous period pieces.
The Agamemnon armour looks FIRE in the battle of Troy scene shown in the Theatre exclusive prologue
I ADORE the LOTR adaptation, especially Fellowship. I never knew I wanted to hear you talk about it until this moment.
I was 10 when I saw Fellowship in the theater. My dad and I had read the trilogy all of that year. Those books and movies were so formative for me.
The anachronisms aren't my biggest gripe in the trailer. Shakespeare used Elizabethan anachronisms for Ancient Greece and Rome. Italian Renaissance art depicted ancient peoples in Italian Renaissance clothing. Even the mythological/legendary works themselves (looking at you two, medieval Arthurian Lit. and the Aenead) use anachronisms for the times they depicted.
I SUPER agree with your point about immersion, though. A fictional world needs internally consistent logic, ESPECIALLY fantastical stories. "If the dragon breathes fire, fine. If the knight's horse starts breathing fire, you can't just shrug and say 'dragons aren't real'."
Great breakdown as always!
@CaryKingdom completely agree with you!
Yes! In fact I'd assume the Odyssey and Iliad themselves have anachronism considering Homer was writing about events centuries before his time. Still i just dont think this was very well done.
Except, as Stephen Fry has reminded us in another video, Homer accurately describes in The Iliad what Late Bronze Age armour looked like. Either examples must have still been kicking around hundreds of years later, or, more likely, the memory was preserved as oral tradition. Not that it matters one jot to me - I'll accept the argument that a later time might well described an earlier one anachronistically. What I'm more concerned about is this movie not being another "Odysseus as superhero" flick. He was more a charming, cunning conman than anything - the creator of many tricks and ruses. He deceived others to his own benefit whenever necessary. He's more Baron Munchhausen than he is Batman. I would like to see him talk to the shade of Achilles, who regrets his lust for glory and eternal fame, but I doubt that element of the story will be included either. It might have been cool to have dragged back Brad Pitt to play the role - despite the other flaws of the movie Troy.
Hollywood is going to think people hate fantasy, when we just hate plastic
9:25 my biggest issue on any Greek mythology films that never casts actual Greek/Mediterranean actors
Sometimes, I like to imagine filmmakers excitedly waiting for their favorite history RUclipsr to analyze their film. Like, "yes, she noticed (insert obscure detail)!!"
And sometimes I imagine them sitting there, a little bummed, going, "yeah, I guess that's fair... it does look like a batman helmet."
When I first saw it, I thought he was supposed to be the personification of Ares and it made some sense. But being that he's playing Agamemnon, it's just silly.
Idk agamemnon was a terrifying foe so him looking like ares add my depth to his external character....my thoughts anyways
@jaysonacquah5271 yeah, if he actually looked like ares, and not a temu squidward lol /nm
@Anton-hs7ltif you genuinely looked at this and thought of squidward of all characters then im afraid nothing i say you would even try and listen💔
@jaysonacquah5271 Heya. You do realize that she says the same thing at 7:00, right? Like people are referencing it because they watched the video.
@Trepanation21 watched again and realised i skipped that side...i dont agree with it tho lol😂
My thought process between the description of the trailer and the trailer itself went as follows: "Ah yes, The Odyssey, where are hero encounters witches, syrens and a Cyclops. Are you going to show us any of those things in this trailer Mr Nolan? No? Just two minutes of Matt Damon looking sad. Okay... cool..."
And I'm kinda sure the only stops in the movie will be the cyclops, the syrens and Circé, because those are the ones people are mostly familiar with. Maybe add one more for good measure. I'll be really surprise if they include the lotus eaters, or Charybdis and Scylla.
@vodkavecz The soldier being stabbed through the ceiling could be Charybdis.
To be fair, the first trailer is more of a teaser - the entire thing is set up to establish anticipation. They'll show more of the monsters and such in later trailers.
Same I’m so…done!
lol why would they do that and spoil the movie. I am glad who ever cut the trailer did it and not you want cause you clearly don’t know what you are talking about and would lessen the actual movie.
Nolan: *puts viking ship in the Odyssey*
Me: "ah, that must be for the Trojan Norse scene"
A friend of mine, who's done lengthy study of material culture of the Spanish Colonial Southwest in both archival holdings and of surviving examples, once told me that he's, more than once, been approached by production companies seeking advice to 'properly' kit out, say, the peoples of a Zorro production.
Aaaaand more than once, he told me, the production company reps nodded politely, listened attentively, then gone with their costuming departments' "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." scenery folks; whose points of reference have probably been the artwork on the walls of their favorite Mexican restaurant.
When I saw that helmet, I was like…
“Yep, everyone’s gonna laugh at it!”
My first thought was MAGNETO!
Thank you for making these wonderful points. I study Greek and Roman history, and I have master's in history with a focus on the Iliad / Bronze Age Greece. I was hoping that this film would be fantastic, but the trailer had me racking my brain on why he mad ethe choices that he did. I also loved that you point out that there is a difference between fantasy and mythology.
James Gunn should use that costume for "The Batman - Lost in time" (which is a real storyline in the comics)
Batman Ninja were my favourite costumes.
I am a cosplayer and the strangely artificial materialization of this armor immediately caught my eye.
Historically accurate armour (Mycenaean boar's tusk helmets, Dendra panopolies, etc) would have looked far more impressive.
When the troops are running down the hill I'm imagining Oydsseus shouting "Run away, run away!" whilst being pursued by a killer rabbit.
Mmhhh, maybe I've had too much coffee this morning? Anyway, a very entertaining take on this. I can't wait to see your review of the actual movie.😀
Cinzia with the “what the fuck is this?” had me laughing out loud.
The first time I have ever heard her swear, it was hilarious.
As someone who has worked in entertainmend industry for 3 years, you're right about the inconsistency and the "too-sleekness". I don't know much about history, but listening to this actually did allow me to learn something new, and looking and the image alone I can tell there is a huge disconnection.
I really appreciate you doing this, cause a lot of times the production comes very fast, and even faster in films from what I've heard, especially in concept stage. We unfortunately tend to work under tight deadline, and whatever that is "cool" enough and still fit to the brief will get passed on. There are less discussion and "arguments" why we wanted to look this way in concept stage, but usually our client will think otherwise and they hired us anyway
This is not just an ordinary piece of fiction, this is Greek cuture, this is so rooted in what ancient greeks truly believed, it's a great piece of litterature, it's based on real history and it is beautiful as it is, no need to change it, it is perfect for any time and culture. By changing it you cheapen the story, because you cannot upgrade something that is already perfect, don't fix it if it isn't broken. I hope it bombs at te box office.
I saw this trailer in the cinema before another movie and was so confused when the name came on screen at the end of the trailer. I thought I was watching a trailer for some kind of dark Viking movie
7:34 Robert Eggers wouldve done everything in his power to make it as accurate as possible
Agreed! I wish he was at the helm of this project.
Yess sirr don’t worry guys i will make this one day
Apparently Nolan is colorblind, which is why all his movies have a very distinct color palette.
The character in Batman armor is supposed to be Agamemnon. Seriously. The actor is Benny Safdie.
And why are they wearing pants but have their arms uncovered? Must've skipped leg day.
Thanks for another great video!
It's quite an achievement to make some of the world's most picturesque vistas shot on location with the highest resolution cameras look like Dunkirk after 4 weeks of rain and bombings.
At least he might do something MINDBLOWING and never before seen again like playing the footage in reverse! Oh wow!
Not gonna lie. To me the costumes felt, well, costumy. Also, the trailer itself felt like one of those fan made trailers where they use clips from different other movies to make a mock trailer. The latter was mostly when Tom Holland showed up followed by Anne Hathaway (doesn’t help that Zendaya’s also in this). It somehow doesn’t feel like a real movie, but something someone thougt could be cool.
Like so much of the Odyssey/Iliad too is about the material culture of Ancient Greece; I mean passages upon passages about the origins of armor and weapons, and who is trading what for what c’mon
and pretty thorough descriptions too, like the Achilles armour... and I've never seen anyone use these descriptions, even though they're not just historical, but also cool and pretty!
1:26 ah yes, a fellow person of culture (as if that wasn’t already obvious)
14:47 my feelings about the trailer in a nutshell. It just looks insanely boring, which is pretty impressive given the source material 😂
I think what struck me about it is just how contemporary it feels (derogatory), so much so that it almost already feels dated?
That batman guy is supposed to be Agamemnon.
I did find it a tad strange when I heard part of this film was shot in the Highlands. I’m having trouble thinking of any part of it that remotely resembles Greece? They did also shoot a fair bit in Morocco, so hopefully those bits look good. I’m not holding my breath though, it all looks quite lazily constructed so far.
Well, he was supposed to have sailed around all over Europe for 20 years
@bir@birds-of-rhiannon He doesn’t get out of the Mediterranean, let alone Northern Scotland.
And he barely filmed in Greece for about a week. It's ridiculous
@birds-of-rhiannon you’re in every comment saying this, and you’re wrong every time.
Why the hell would Morocco look like greece
Using the LOTR trilogy as an example is fantastic, because we know how much care, thought, and detail was put into many elements of the design. E.g. the fact that orcs wear pieces of armour from humans and elves because they do not create, they just destroy and take. I would have been much happier with designs in the Odyssey that showed some actual inspiration and thought, even if it was wildly fantastical and not at all historically based, if it at least looked unified in aesthetics and showcased that the designers were actually putting some real thought and care into what they did. Everything so far just looks lazy.
@russergee49 This. It’s not that it’s anachronistic, it looks bad and thoughtless. Why are those helmets so ugly? Why is there no hint of bronze or color? The designs feel like bad ripoffs of the typical designs for anything vaguely Greco-Roman. There is no thought or care put into it.
Precisely! Very well said.
But weta workshop that did lotr made this movie visual design too??? So im surprised
@jaysonacquah5271 The artists and designers have to follow the director's vision (and time/budget constraints). If the director says: "I don't care about historicity and I haven't included R&D into the schedule I put forward to the studio execs. Just give me something that looks like a superhero blockbuster, and make it quick", they can't do much about it. I'm sure they have more than enough creativity, expertise and passion to deliver something fantastic. It's just that Nolan didn't want them to bother.
@AW-uv3cbtrue true it actually sad but im still hyped for the movie idk...I love greek mythology and christopher nolan hasn't really disappointed me before so😭
I don’t mind anachronism, but do they have to be so boring about it?
That's a big point for me too! It's not like doing a mythic tale in dark, gritty and with bad armor is a anything innovative at this point any more.
That!!!!
Nolan's films always are pretty grey and drab. Its like he can't imagine a world that is colorful and realistic at the same time. Even the end dream sequence in Inception was just a giant grey city.
@MsAstrius Agree. For historical movies, he needs to check in with Stone's "Alexander" and the HBO TV series "Rome" for colorful, realistic and brutal.
@benjalucian1515I second this! HBO's Rome wasn't entirely accurate either, but gave the feeling of historicity, if not historical accuracy, not in spite of but BECAUSE of the bright, vivid colors, the chiaroscuro of sun drenched exteriors with flame-lit interiors. Brutal but not boring, dramatic and NOT DULL!
Cinzia, I sincerely pray you never lose your passion. Your wit and your spirit are a gift to this world.
There was a (fellow, sadly) Italian guy who wrote an entire book to support his hypothesis that both the Iliad and the Odyssey take place in the Atlantic/North Sea.
You read that right: the bloody ATLANTIC and the NORTH SEA.
The theory had some attention in the public sphere (and zero academically) but it almost feels like Nolan would support it :D
I had the very same reactions as you when I first saw the trailer : THAT armour, THAT boat, the dark cinematography, the light complexions, all those things that make it so unrealistic in relation to the Bronze Age setting of the Odyssey! Oh dear... The only thing that would be plausible is the woodlands, considering Greece was a lot more wooded at that time, albeit not with what looks like Scottish weather...
They filmed it in SCOTLAND?!?!?!
Where are my horned helmets 😅
Actually, Vikings did not wear horned helmets. that was misconception popularized by Wagner's operas.
@David-e8e3j What do vikings have to do with the discussion? Mycenaean warriors did have horns on their helmets.
@robo5013 this is exactly why I have this comment, the one time that they could have used or helmets , they did not 😅
And Homer even describes Agamemnon's helmet as been horned!
Who turns greek pillars into cement blocks? 😭
That helmet took me out. In Troy, there wasn't anything that took me out. Plenty of stuff I could nitpick on, but nothing that just psychically slapped me upside my face.
Yeah, I have my nitpicks about the mythological accuracy in Troy, but at least they made an effort with the movie and it looks fantastic. This literally looks like Scotland.
Very happy you decided to cover this as a lover of the Classics. I winced when I saw the trailer.
Makes one wonder why he wanted to make this movie in the first place.
This. It all looks so phoned in. Contractual obligation maybe?
Ego
Trying new things of course
Huge paycheck plus he gets to screw the Greek civilization some more as Hollywood likes to do
Agreed. It feels like he’s going out of his way to make a poor rendition of this enduring myth.
Garish barber shops was spot on 🙏
The way you built up this defence of Greek mythology as something deserving of respect and then capped it with "what the fuck is this?" was just perfect! Absolute poetry!
Jason Mantzoukas as Odysseus would have been amazing.
My choice exactly. Greek heritage and looks regal, can act "mad but brilliantly cunning".
He’s not by any chance Greek, is he?
@marionmarino1616 look at his last name.
Missed a chance to reference Legolas skateboarding down the trunk of a Mumakil at 3:54
I am so glad to hear your thoughts on the trailer. I felt like I was going crazy seeing everyone repeating the same line of, "It's fantasy! Who cares about historical accuracy?" I think that how we portray the past matters because it also reflects our current understanding of the world and our place in the world and our relation to history and the passage of time. The trailer felt like such a vibes-based approach to cultural production. We can take whatever we want and mash it up however we please. As long as it looks cool and is entertaining who cares what it means? There is something troubling about this incoherent pilfering of cultural artefacts, especially in the context of The Odyssey. It's the story of a victorious soldier returning home from war. Are these varied aesthetics meant to be the spoils of war that we then display in the museum that is this movie? This is Nolan's follow up to Oppenheimer, a war movie followed by the return from war, all during a renewed era of American imperialism. I'm sure people will say, "It's just a movie, let people enjoy things!" But I am concerned about the implications of these aesthetic choices.
When I first saw people complaining about the trailer, my first thought was "It's based on a myth, who cares how historically accurate it is?" Now that I have actually seen it...well, I think the naysayers might have a point.
The Percy Jackson show had better looking Greek armor and that's set in present day
Nowadays it is frowned upon to just take a piece of someone else's cultural heritage and do whatever you like with it, and rightly so.
Except for Greece.
Weirdly enough, Greek cultural heritage still seems to be up for grabs.
Imagine Nolan doing something similar with the Mahabharata.
Out of the box theory: Nolan loves messing with time, so perhaps this is more of a 'reimagining' of the Odyssey. Perhaps Odysseus' mystical journey is also a temporal journey in this film and that actually IS a Viking longship and the' Laestrygonians' they encounter are actually Vikings, because they're sailing through time to get home.
This would also explain how the hell one of their soldiers managed to get his hands on a set of Party-City costume armour.....
@conorhal That would actually be kind of interesting! Yet why not make that more obvious in the trailer? If most folks go in just thinking it's going to be a straight adaptation of The Odyssey, they're going to feel played in some way, imo.
Time Bandits sequel.
would love to watch a reaction video to the old miniseries of the Oddesy from the 90's. It had Isabela Rosselini as Athena and Armand Asante as Odysseus, so at least people of Mediterranean decent as Greeks.
It’s like he’s never seen the Mediterranean. Like he’s never seen not only Greece or Turkey, but also not Italy, or Spain, or Croatia, or France…
like he couldnt get a cheap filming deal in albania??
@bean4513 EXACTLY
I'll just rewatch Shogun to scratch my historically accurate itch
You know something is a bit off when Gladiator has more historical accuracy than your movie