Meg, it’s always a pleasure to see your content. I’m following along with you but I’m quite a bit behind. As of right now, I’m just getting into the Dark Nest trilogy. Clearly you are an articulate and well read person. I’ll watch the rest of your videos after I read the corresponding books. I haven’t made up my mind about all the bugs, yet though. Thanks for all you do for us!!!
Maybe it's just because I'm finally coming into the NJO, Dark Nest, LotF, and FotJ after the disney distaster, but I am loving all of it. And I don't really understand the Denning criticism.
I wish the first post NJO series was about Jacen's travels, ideally written by Matthew Stover a la Traitor, tight highly stylized stories with small casts and low stakes. I would have loved to read those.
17:30 Denning is wrong. You are close, but you not 100% correct, because Vergere says explicitly that it's not only about intentions: "As long as you don't lose you Jedi calm, you can kill and kill and kill? Isn't that a little sick?" (paraphrased). It's also definitely not The Ends Justify The Means, exactly the opposite in fact. Your chioices and actions themselves and their outcomes are what is most important.
So much of the Denningverse, in my opinion, is Del Rey and Lucasfilm editorial walking back what they let the NJO team do with the Force. I'm unusual in hating Traitor, though I do love Destiny's Way and The Unifying Force, and I don't find any of them particularly philosophically deep - but compared to the fairly simplistic dualism of the original trilogy (at least the standard interpretation of the original trilogy), the NJO does deepen the understanding of the Force quite a bit. Denning and the editors, however, wanted to retell the prequels, which rely even more heavily on the standard dualism (at least on the surface - we could go back and forth a lot about whether Lucas really intended that, or if that's just the Jedi's stunted, ossified view of the Force after millenia of unchallenged tradition), and lacked the thoughtfulness to really understand what the NJO did.
I personally loved the all out bug slashing at the end with Luke and Mara in some pretty intense fighting scenes. Vergere kind of poisoned the NJO view of the force and they embraced the Unifying Force. This definately is sending them down the wrong path (Jacen especially). It plays into the HUGE argument in the SW fan base about Balanced force. 1 camp(George Lucas included) sees it being with absolutely No Dark. And another camp adding a Unifying Force perspective that a little Dark is okay as long as it's not too dark. It's a Catch 22 I guess. I loved Luke's Falanassi illusion on the starship. He is very strong. I seemed to have missed the parts about the Killik Harem stuff. I just remember Zekk kind of experiencing the same feelings Jaina has for Jagged Fel and that was it nothing else.
I think I actually skipped the Dark Nest books until after the Legacy of the Force books started, and when I went to the library to get them to catch up while I was reading Bloodlines (Legacy book 2), I only got books 2 and 3. And I hated them, so I never wanted to go back and read book 1. I think the way that Denning treats Jaina is unforgiveable. All of your points are excellent, especially the way Denning tends to treat lady characters, but the way he treats Jaina is especially nasty. He basically steals 10 years of her life to a living hell that destroys most of her relationships and sanity, and I think that's wrong for a franchise that depends on the goodwill of the fans who love the characters. Not saying bad things can't happen, but this isn't bad - this is torment, and it's destruction of character and potential. I have the same feeling about what Denning did to Luke, Mara, and Ben, but that's partly because Denning basically completely destroyed Tim Zahn's ability to write a one-shot novel about the Skywalker family, and I think that's ridiculously unprofessional.
@@magnenoalex2 No, I know Bloodlines was Traviss. But Denning is the one who put Luke, Mara, and Ben's relationship and status quo in such a spot that Zahn had no room to tell his story.
@@FHT1883 Yeah. There are moments of shining glory that I really love - Exile, Fury, and Conviction are favorite Star Wars books - but as a whole, the 21+ books of the Denningverse are mostly an endless succession of betrayed promises and misery.
@@millernumber1 Yeah Traviss killed her, but Denning had their relationship so frayed there wasn't really a way to slip in one last family adventure before that point.
Great review! The writing of Leia and Han was very good, but it was annoying as usual to have the younger characters overshadowed by Luke, Mara, Leia, Han. Some very uncomfortable bits to read, I didn't like how Jaina was under control of the hive mind the whole time. Very disrespectful writing for the Sword of the Jedi. But at least compared to Disney, the whole bug idea was creative and the exploration of the conscious vs subconscious mind was interesting, as well as trying to figure out what was going on in Raynar's mind and how to reach some kind of solution. I liked the chapter when Jacen went to visit Tenel Ka, the whole issue with the EU books for me is the characters are so stale and wooden, it was good to see some chemistry there. But then it goes back to Jacen being in back with the Jedi experiments and we never see Tenel Ka again, it felt so random.
Dark Nest trilogy seems to be universally despised by EU fans. I still want to read it though I have some reservations. On the one hand, while I hate bugs in real life, I like them being used as a deadly force in fiction and that can work very well for me. And it would be nice to see how the galaxy is doing after the Yuuzon Vong. I also have no issue with darker Star Wars stories, such as the Yuuzon Vong, and stuff like Andor and Rogue One are the best things to come out of Disney Star Wars. On the other hand, I finished the New Jedi Order series back in June and my 3 favorite books in it would be Star by Star, Traitor, and Unifying Force. I really liked what they did with Jacen and Vergere made an intriguing mentor-figure for him. I love what they did with all of that, so if Troy Denning has a really bizarre and perverse interpretation of that and if there is a lot of character assassination there, it's going to rub me the wrong way.
I didn't watch the whole video, I watched the intro, watched a few parts and then skipped to what you didn't like at the end 'cause I haven't read those books yet, I'm trying to avoid major spoilers. I wanted to see your opinion as I've seen A LOT of people online who absolutely detest anything post-NJO, except for Legacy. And from some of the spoilers I've received from the post-NJO books I think I'm gonna hate those for the most part, especially this trilogy (bug sex).
Ugh. I believe this was the book that ultimately stopped me reading the EU. I hate bugs and yes some icky feelings in this. Good review. I don't think I ever finished this book and never read the rest of them. I may force myself to finish one day. Ladies in general don't get the best characterizations in the books. One other thing that always drove me nuts was the continual forcing of time with multi year jumps. I just remember always wanting to yell at them that I like seeing Luke, Han, Leia and Mara in their prime and I didn't want them to get grey and arthritic. Plus they waited way too long in the first place to Let Mara have a kid. Hello biological clocks were ticking away!!
I wouldn't have minded if they let Han, Leia, Luke, and Mara grow old and let their kids take the lead in adventures that were ultimately hopeful rather than cyclically nihilistic. I look at stuff like the Millenium Falcon novel and Mercy Kill, and wish we could have gotten that direction instead of Denning's insistence on redoing the prequels.
10:25 why would you be disappointed by Denning's portrayal of Alema? He already wrote her terribly in SBS, the sexism and objectification was just dripping off the page. I didn't expect her to be treated/written any better. It also shows that Denning doesn't understand the Force, nobody is "destined to fall".
I am also checking out Carpetbaggers, and it's quite well written, though I'm extremely...edgy about the theology. It's definitely not Neil Gaiman's The Problem of Susan level "what if Narnia but EVERYTHING WAS EVIL AND GROSS", but it's not where I'd go at all.
I was somewhat frustrated with this series not being more inquisitive about the Jedi order’s involvement with the GA during reconstruction. I felt like the Jedi were essentially serving as a police force to protect reconstruction corporations’ interests, and not really helping normal people. From what little we hear about them, these corporations seem to be scooping up planets and resources for cheap after the war, then exploiting them as much as possible, all while being subsidized by the GA and protected by the Jedi. I was annoyed that no Jedi masters really seemed bothered by this arrangement, as it seems very un-jedi like to help mainly the rich and powerful, and mostly forget about the downtrodden. I was annoyed at both the brevity of detail about the reconstruction, as well as the lack of introspection on the part of the Jedi, who were just enforcing the GA’s rules that mostly only helped corporations. The Jedi being so focused on preventing and reprimanding piracy without considering why piracy would be happening (perhaps because the GA seems uninterested in helping average people) was a big gap in this book for me, and it was disappointing that we didn’t get more detail about this stuff. I think it may have been more interesting than the bug war that we got.
Meg, it’s always a pleasure to see your content. I’m following along with you but I’m quite a bit behind. As of right now, I’m just getting into the Dark Nest trilogy.
Clearly you are an articulate and well read person. I’ll watch the rest of your videos after I read the corresponding books.
I haven’t made up my mind about all the bugs, yet though. Thanks for all you do for us!!!
You have started the Dark Times. The Denningverse.
Ugh. Good fortune to you. :)
😂
Maybe it's just because I'm finally coming into the NJO, Dark Nest, LotF, and FotJ after the disney distaster, but I am loving all of it. And I don't really understand the Denning criticism.
I wish the first post NJO series was about Jacen's travels, ideally written by Matthew Stover a la Traitor, tight highly stylized stories with small casts and low stakes. I would have loved to read those.
17:30 Denning is wrong. You are close, but you not 100% correct, because Vergere says explicitly that it's not only about intentions: "As long as you don't lose you Jedi calm, you can kill and kill and kill? Isn't that a little sick?" (paraphrased). It's also definitely not The Ends Justify The Means, exactly the opposite in fact. Your chioices and actions themselves and their outcomes are what is most important.
*your Jedi calm
So much of the Denningverse, in my opinion, is Del Rey and Lucasfilm editorial walking back what they let the NJO team do with the Force. I'm unusual in hating Traitor, though I do love Destiny's Way and The Unifying Force, and I don't find any of them particularly philosophically deep - but compared to the fairly simplistic dualism of the original trilogy (at least the standard interpretation of the original trilogy), the NJO does deepen the understanding of the Force quite a bit.
Denning and the editors, however, wanted to retell the prequels, which rely even more heavily on the standard dualism (at least on the surface - we could go back and forth a lot about whether Lucas really intended that, or if that's just the Jedi's stunted, ossified view of the Force after millenia of unchallenged tradition), and lacked the thoughtfulness to really understand what the NJO did.
I personally loved the all out bug slashing at the end with Luke and Mara in some pretty intense fighting scenes. Vergere kind of poisoned the NJO view of the force and they embraced the Unifying Force. This definately is sending them down the wrong path (Jacen especially). It plays into the HUGE argument in the SW fan base about Balanced force. 1 camp(George Lucas included) sees it being with absolutely No Dark. And another camp adding a Unifying Force perspective that a little Dark is okay as long as it's not too dark. It's a Catch 22 I guess. I loved Luke's Falanassi illusion on the starship. He is very strong. I seemed to have missed the parts about the Killik Harem stuff. I just remember Zekk kind of experiencing the same feelings Jaina has for Jagged Fel and that was it nothing else.
I like it not nearly as much as NJO but I also saw the sequels so maybe I'm more forgiving then I should be
Forgiving, maybe. Definitely curious! But then I like Star Wars stories on the whole, so me too.
I think I actually skipped the Dark Nest books until after the Legacy of the Force books started, and when I went to the library to get them to catch up while I was reading Bloodlines (Legacy book 2), I only got books 2 and 3. And I hated them, so I never wanted to go back and read book 1. I think the way that Denning treats Jaina is unforgiveable. All of your points are excellent, especially the way Denning tends to treat lady characters, but the way he treats Jaina is especially nasty. He basically steals 10 years of her life to a living hell that destroys most of her relationships and sanity, and I think that's wrong for a franchise that depends on the goodwill of the fans who love the characters. Not saying bad things can't happen, but this isn't bad - this is torment, and it's destruction of character and potential. I have the same feeling about what Denning did to Luke, Mara, and Ben, but that's partly because Denning basically completely destroyed Tim Zahn's ability to write a one-shot novel about the Skywalker family, and I think that's ridiculously unprofessional.
That was traviss but..... fair
@@magnenoalex2 No, I know Bloodlines was Traviss. But Denning is the one who put Luke, Mara, and Ben's relationship and status quo in such a spot that Zahn had no room to tell his story.
true - the Denningverse is basically just unnecessarily brutal torture and misery porn. Pretty much every character gets ruined in one way or another.
@@FHT1883 Yeah. There are moments of shining glory that I really love - Exile, Fury, and Conviction are favorite Star Wars books - but as a whole, the 21+ books of the Denningverse are mostly an endless succession of betrayed promises and misery.
@@millernumber1 Yeah Traviss killed her, but Denning had their relationship so frayed there wasn't really a way to slip in one last family adventure before that point.
Great review!
The writing of Leia and Han was very good, but it was annoying as usual to have the younger characters overshadowed by Luke, Mara, Leia, Han. Some very uncomfortable bits to read, I didn't like how Jaina was under control of the hive mind the whole time. Very disrespectful writing for the Sword of the Jedi. But at least compared to Disney, the whole bug idea was creative and the exploration of the conscious vs subconscious mind was interesting, as well as trying to figure out what was going on in Raynar's mind and how to reach some kind of solution.
I liked the chapter when Jacen went to visit Tenel Ka, the whole issue with the EU books for me is the characters are so stale and wooden, it was good to see some chemistry there. But then it goes back to Jacen being in back with the Jedi experiments and we never see Tenel Ka again, it felt so random.
Dark Nest trilogy seems to be universally despised by EU fans. I still want to read it though I have some reservations. On the one hand, while I hate bugs in real life, I like them being used as a deadly force in fiction and that can work very well for me. And it would be nice to see how the galaxy is doing after the Yuuzon Vong. I also have no issue with darker Star Wars stories, such as the Yuuzon Vong, and stuff like Andor and Rogue One are the best things to come out of Disney Star Wars. On the other hand, I finished the New Jedi Order series back in June and my 3 favorite books in it would be Star by Star, Traitor, and Unifying Force. I really liked what they did with Jacen and Vergere made an intriguing mentor-figure for him. I love what they did with all of that, so if Troy Denning has a really bizarre and perverse interpretation of that and if there is a lot of character assassination there, it's going to rub me the wrong way.
THIS CHANNEL IS IT!!!!
I love your channel so much. Thank you.
Awesome review
Good review, as usual. Love that you give attention to these old Legends novels.
What I found crazy about Jacen is when I realized after the pool of Knowledge scenes in FotJ that he seems to know everything here is going to happen.
So the Pool things are in a flashback set before the Swarm War?
Thanks for these reviews Meg!
Yes! Been waiting for you review on this. Loved this trilogy.
I didn't watch the whole video, I watched the intro, watched a few parts and then skipped to what you didn't like at the end 'cause I haven't read those books yet, I'm trying to avoid major spoilers. I wanted to see your opinion as I've seen A LOT of people online who absolutely detest anything post-NJO, except for Legacy. And from some of the spoilers I've received from the post-NJO books I think I'm gonna hate those for the most part, especially this trilogy (bug sex).
Great review as always Meg! I hate Bugs too
Ugh. I believe this was the book that ultimately stopped me reading the EU. I hate bugs and yes some icky feelings in this. Good review. I don't think I ever finished this book and never read the rest of them. I may force myself to finish one day. Ladies in general don't get the best characterizations in the books. One other thing that always drove me nuts was the continual forcing of time with multi year jumps. I just remember always wanting to yell at them that I like seeing Luke, Han, Leia and Mara in their prime and I didn't want them to get grey and arthritic. Plus they waited way too long in the first place to Let Mara have a kid. Hello biological clocks were ticking away!!
I wouldn't have minded if they let Han, Leia, Luke, and Mara grow old and let their kids take the lead in adventures that were ultimately hopeful rather than cyclically nihilistic. I look at stuff like the Millenium Falcon novel and Mercy Kill, and wish we could have gotten that direction instead of Denning's insistence on redoing the prequels.
I read the whole trilogy, but for the longest time it was the last thing I read.
@@millernumber1 I mean, Mercy Kill was its own sort of sad.
@@DIEGhostfish It was sad, but not "I stopped reading Star Wars books completely for an entire year when before I was reading them all" sad.
Bonus cat videos. Exactly what the internet was invented for.
10:25 why would you be disappointed by Denning's portrayal of Alema? He already wrote her terribly in SBS, the sexism and objectification was just dripping off the page. I didn't expect her to be treated/written any better. It also shows that Denning doesn't understand the Force, nobody is "destined to fall".
I am also checking out Carpetbaggers, and it's quite well written, though I'm extremely...edgy about the theology. It's definitely not Neil Gaiman's The Problem of Susan level "what if Narnia but EVERYTHING WAS EVIL AND GROSS", but it's not where I'd go at all.
I was somewhat frustrated with this series not being more inquisitive about the Jedi order’s involvement with the GA during reconstruction. I felt like the Jedi were essentially serving as a police force to protect reconstruction corporations’ interests, and not really helping normal people. From what little we hear about them, these corporations seem to be scooping up planets and resources for cheap after the war, then exploiting them as much as possible, all while being subsidized by the GA and protected by the Jedi. I was annoyed that no Jedi masters really seemed bothered by this arrangement, as it seems very un-jedi like to help mainly the rich and powerful, and mostly forget about the downtrodden. I was annoyed at both the brevity of detail about the reconstruction, as well as the lack of introspection on the part of the Jedi, who were just enforcing the GA’s rules that mostly only helped corporations. The Jedi being so focused on preventing and reprimanding piracy without considering why piracy would be happening (perhaps because the GA seems uninterested in helping average people) was a big gap in this book for me, and it was disappointing that we didn’t get more detail about this stuff. I think it may have been more interesting than the bug war that we got.
Really shouldn't have watched this before reading the vong saga
Oh, no! I feel for you! I’m trying to read along in chronological order, myself.