If you are patient enough, and know how to shop, anybody can put together an amazing system with used equipment on the cheap. It does take patience, but you can get a truly audiophile system under 2k...for everything
yes i did something pretty similar on a 'beer budget' ... would be an APEX system in the early 90s ... and probably cost around 30K or so but didn't cost me much more than 4-5K
+Sharpie the Parrot I have an amp that is 200+200 w @ 0.1% THD (at full rated output) and some home hacked speakers that mimic the "KEF Uni-Q" speakers and are point-source (just like the real KEF Uni-Q). High power combined with point source sound image and tuned speakers makes it sound like a million dollars when it costs very little.The amp cost $330 brand new and the speakers cost about $500 to make. Once you hear two-way point source there is go going back. I made the speakers from drivers I bought from eBay and you have to find drivers that fit well together (and it's hard but I can give you some links to drivers that fit). Some bass/med "guitar" drivers have a large voice coil and you can buy some fairly good 1" dome tweeters that have a small overall diam (like 1.5"). You may have to strip them down somewhat (lol). I chose car 1" domes cos they were the only one's small enough for the job cos I had to mount the tweeter inside the bass driver's 2" voice coil (cavity). This makes a two-way point source speaker (like the KEF Uni-Q). The vast majority of full-range FR speakers don't have enough top end to give you the proper point source "super image"...unless you are willing to pay multiple times the price as two-way point source speakers. 3 grand may be a lot for some two-way point source speakers (like the KEF) but Feastrex sell FR speakers for like over 20X the price and you only get two 8" drivers (and nothing else). So this seems that the cheaper FR speakers aren't any good if those are that expensive. A far better option seems is to go two-way and get (inherently) more hf response cos of the physics. That simple! But it's not that simple cos you now have to find the right drivers that fit. But KEF made it that simple by making their own drivers. And then you have to intensity match the bass and treble drivers (it's also a problem). With bullet tweeters in my point source PA speakers, I had to resist the bullet tweeters, and when I used the dome tweeters in my lounge speakers I had to resist the bass drivers instead. A vast difference in efficiency of the two different type tweeters. Also "guitar" driverers are way more efficient than cheap full-blown hi-fi woofers. I also had to resisted the car tweeters a little as well, but only to match impedance. I used 2 ohms (6 ohm tweeter instead of 8 ohm) cos they are heaps inefficient compared to the bass drivers. And I also had to resist the bass/med "guitar" speakers cos they are heaps efficient and too loud for the tweeters if not resisted. As you can tell it's a nightmare to match the drivers both in space and sound (so you can have point source). But with that sorted (and with a crossover) they are (by far) the best speakers I ever had! And the thinner cone of the guitar speaker makes way superior med to any cheap full blown hi-fi woofer (by a large measure)! And the bass is still good cos the "guitar" drivers have massive magnets (even if they are stiff suspension). There is a vent hole through the bass/med drivers, for easier tweeter mounting and access for tweeter cables. I can move the tweeters up and down the voice coil cavity to get the best phasing (by placing the tweeter at the optimum "point source" level with the bass cone). I made my own cabinets and crossovers as well. And the speakers sound how I want them to sound.
I've been on the piano business for almost 50 years. A grand piano with 12,000.parts made from wood, felt, brass highest quality music wire, 100s of hours of labor, high packaging costs, shipping costs, dealer floor space, piano technicians needed to prepare before and go to the customers home after sales, 10 year warranty and so on, can be purchased for less than a 2 metre cable or an expensive cartridge that takes an hour to make. Do the math
For anyone interested in the science from a materials scientist: What he his talking about is a polycrystalline copper. This mean that you have segments of a copper that are of one orientation in the lattice when they are separated, however, when they are in the copper they do not align. When two crystalline regions of different orientations come together and meet, it forms a grain boundary. It is well known in the research that electron scattering can occur at these defect points would could introduce potential noise in a signal. However, I am not sure whether this is perceivable by the human ear.
I'm not a materials scientist but I'm going to say that the difference is NOT perceivable by the human ear. especially someone old enough to afford this high-end junk.
Well, I just heard a 300,000 dollar system recently. It does sound slightly better than my 30,000 dollar system. So where am I going to scrape up an extra 270,000 dollars?
This is why I want to build not buy. 2 way 8 ohm speakers with high efficiency 15 inch woofers that have a phase plug and 100+ dB efficient ribbon tweeters with a 4th order 2.2kHz linkwitz Riley crossover.
@@Turboy65 The suggestion was a dime. LOL. After you know that you are hearing everything that was recorded, everything the producer intended you to hear, ???? Ok, I'm a musician, a player if you will. We don't typically have expensive stereos primarily because chasing 75-150 dollars a night doesn't support it. Even with the occasional better-paying studio gigs, which are getting fewer and farther between, spending 30,000 for a stereo doesn't quite fit my current goals of eating and bathing regularly. I can assure you though, I can hear the difference in Liszt played on a Steinway and Liszt played on a Bosendorfer. Enjoy your system. I'm sure it sounds wonderful. Also, you could invite me over so I can hear how good I REALLY sound. LOL
Absolutely, some people can't taste the difference between a MacDonald's burger and a Michelin Star burger. For those people, there's definitely no point paying more.
My approach was to buy enough land that I could listen to music without worrying about offending neighbors. I bought an 1890 house with no drywall, and no plaster; just old-growth fir. So my music investment was more about the listening environment than the gear. I base my equipment purchases on 1) my budget 2) physics 3) perceived incremental improvement 4) craftsmanship.
@@bryanp4827 That's like saying higher-cost products, in general, are worse than lower-cost ones. You map-out what your goal is, set limits for price and the like, and you stay with it. Just because it exists, doesn't mean you must have it!
Once you get to a certain level, it just becomes an extremely wealthy man's bragging rights at an event in his own home. The emperor always needs new clothes and only the BEST will do.
Sometimes, it's a matter of buying something that will fill a large room. Ever been to a mansion where they have high ceilings and are relatively large rooms? Some of these people have rooms where only certain speakers will fill the room where it's listenable, which is why they tend to buy these large speakers. Putting a small bookshelf speaker simply won't work in a large room. how many companies make speakers for these large rooms and how much do they cost? Typically speaking, one has to spend at least $100K or more if you room is a certain size since anything smaller, regardless of the sound quality simply won't go loud enough for these large rooms, so their other choice would be a PA system, but PA systems aren't as good because they are designed more for going loud and being durable to travel rather than sound quality. So for those wealthy enough to have a mansion, with large rooms, if they want to have a high quality stereo that will fill the room with good sound, they have to spend gobs of money because that's simply what's available for that application. yes, the wealthy have egos to support and some simply don't give a rip how much it costs, just as long as they feel it's the best you can get and there isn't anything better or more expensive. That's why companies like MIT cables can charge $80K on speaker cables. Heck, if I had the money, I'd probably buy them too. Ya go around once and having huge amounts of money is meant to be spent and enjoyed. So why not? :-) It's the same philosophy as car enthusiasts that have large amounts of disposable income. If they want a custom one of a kind Rolls Royce and spend $13 Million on one, then by all means, go for it. Rolls Royce's are only practical for super wealthy people where anything less simply won't do. :-)
99% of the LP's are created with pretty standard cutting tables and cutting cartridges. A $50,000 table and cartridge is not going to make a 70's era LP sound any better. But, if that's what makes you feel good and impress your neighbors go for it.
That's exactly it. A product's price isn't about 'quality'.. it's about supply vs demand and value. Value of a product isn't about it's ability to perform it's function (i.e. produce sound) but rather, especially in the high end, about how it makes people feel to own it. You can buy a speaker cabinet made from sturdy wood that costs 100 bucks per square meter.. or you could buy a speaker cabinet made from special hand-picked wood that was cut from some bigass 5000yo tree in a rain forest that costs 10k per square meter. Does it sound better? Hell, it might even sound WORSE. That doesn't change the fact that the exclusivity of it gives it value to certain people the same way some oil sheiks drive around in a 40 karat gold plated Lamborghini even though gold is probably not the lightest, sturdiest nor most aerodynamic of materials. Those type of exclusive audio products that cost upwards of a ton aren't for expert audiophiles.. they're for rich people that have more money than they know how to spend usefully.
Actually, you're flat out wrong on that. All industry standard record lathes are rigidly constructed, massive systems that are built from the ground up to ensure that the only vibration that gets recorded to the record is the signal to be recorded, and at the precisely correct speed. There is a large effort made to isolate the master being cut from all external sources of vibration. The motivating factors behind high end turntables are all about speed stability and the ability to dampen vibration and get the purest signal possible off the record and into your preamp. All those vibration and speed control systems cost money. Even in a modest system, you WILL hear the difference when you step up a level to a better turntable. And you'll hear a difference when you step up to a better cartridge. I say this because it's true and I'm not even much of a vinyl guy. My turntable says Technics on it. But I've heard turntables that get a lot more out of my records than mine does, and their price range starts at just a few hundred dollars and if you want even better, you can get it, for a higher price. That ladder of price and performance has many rungs on it. How high do you want to spend?
@@ayporos You're mostly wrong about this. Not completely but wrong enough I have to call you out on it. The fact is that most high end audio products are built from premium quality components and made in small quantities which means that the economies of large scale manufacture don't apply. They're designed by specialist engineers and the product development cycle is typically longer than that of normal consumer products. They're tested and evaluated and designs are revised, usually several times, before production even starts. The embedded costs of these better engineered products are higher than consumer hi fi gear and for all of these reasons they end up costing more. I myself have a rather decent system, built on a tight budget and bought almost entirely on the used market. Still, it's a system that originally cost over 30,000 dollars to somebody, so it's nothing to sneeze at by any standard. And it sounds incredible. Anybody who hears it loves it. They just don't get to hear music sound that good at home, unless they're also willing to spend money on a better system and have already done so. And it's not about the speaker cabinets. Those are actually veneered very thick MDF, very rigid, very solid, and very heavy, but it's not the cabinets that's where the money is invested. It's in very fine high performance drivers and a crossover that's perfectly engineered to the characteristics of the drivers. I pick equipment with my ears and don't buy new. I can't afford that. So you can be assured, what I have performs enormously better than a regular stereo system with big box speakers. You're talking about VWs, I'm talking about Ferraris. You can go get groceries in either one. But they're not the same thing and one is far more capable of doing certain things than the other.
Gizmo Thewytchdoktor but at least with houses most of the time you get 100% or better return on your investment. I bought a house for $165,000 and sold it five years later for $290,000. That's a lot of return. You can't say that for audio equipment.
The fidgeting at the beginning followed by the disclaimer, "I don't want to get in trouble with my fellow manufacturers...." speaks volumes. Not knocking high-end audio by the way, and if people are willing to pay the prices...that's great. "What the market will bear" always applies. Still trying to work one of the big shows into my schedule and have a listen. But still, the fidgeting...and the disclaimer.
I have been to several training sessions on selling to wealthy customers. We were always told that these customers want large ostentatious systems to impress their friends and could care little about having the absolute best sound quality, although that was what we were to tell them.
@@FrankiesMarket Beaucoup is the word in French that you are looking for. "Soul brother too beaucoup" as the Vietnamese prostitute said in Full Metal Jacket.
FrankiesMarket I was not aware that Buku was a word, slang or not. I was only aware of the french word. American English has adopted many french words in our lexicon and most, that I’m aware of, are still in their original French spelling (garage, menu, café, boutique , etc). We even use the word “hors d’oeuvre” without changing the spelling and that words is messed up. So why would would change beaucoup to buku? As long as I’ve known the word it’s always been spelled that way. You are the first person I’ve ever seen spell it that way. Bucks is a real word and has been for a long time. Look it the dictionary and you’ll find it.
Paul, you talk in such a familiar manner, as if you are our best friend sitting next, chatting in the living room. That's called charm, and charisma...
I would say, that considering diminishing returns, peoples rooms and general acoustics within the room they place their system, is much more a factor that plays a role than getting those last 2% "performance" from a 10x more expensive system.
People think you are crazy to spend a million on a stereo that I listen to at least 4 hours a day. But most think it's perfectly normal to spend a million on a sport car that only they only drive once a month. I don't get it.
People who have the money need to spend it. Most of today economical issue are cause by people who have money and not spending it. Resulting lots of money stuck in the bank under very few names. When the rest of us have problem pay rent every week. And those real expensive stuff require a lot of man hours i.e. every day people working and get pay if rich people are not buying those that means not job for every day people. Resulting everyday people want to buy cheap stuff made out of 3rd world as well. This is a really bad cycle.
All of these things are just to give people warm fuzzy feelings. Some have a lot of money to spend, and you can't blame the manufacturers for taking it from them. If you convince yourself something is supernatural, then it's as good as if it actually were.
I was very skeptical of high end audio and actually went to a high end audio store once, expecting to see expensive equipment that sounded no better than my decent system at home. I came to laugh and ridicule. Boy, did I end up shocked! I didn't need my eyes to know when their higher range demo systems were running. The difference was so obvious there's no way you could fail to hear it. Today, 20 years later, I OWN the very pair of speakers that were on demo that day 20 years ago in their large system demo room. I've had them for 19 of those 20 years. In fact I have several pieces of gear that were part of that demo system. (I'm not a rich man, so I had to wait and buy them on the used market.) It's as much of a difference as looking at the moon through a cheap 3" refractor telescope from Wal-Mart and then getting to look at it through the 24" Newtonian telescope at your local college observatory. You just can't know how much better it can be until you experience it for yourself.
Paul is imperative for mentioning "diminishing return" for most products / services. I recalled to attend lecture on risk engineering. For doing things with Improvement 60% to 80%, Improvement 81% to 90%, Improvement 91% to 95%, Improvement 96% to 100%, The resources input and improvement as output result are linear in relationship at initial stage, but eventually with change to exponential scale at final stage and terminal stage.
Your favorite music sounds good on average equipment. Music you don't dig sounds average on fantastic equipment. Music you dig sounds awesome on awesome equipment. {First music + affordable equipment = happy.}
I would be like the happiest kid in the world if I played melodic dubstep song on awesome equipment for example listening to Velvetine - The Great Divide (Seven Lions Remix) on a pair of B&W 802D3s, Classe amplifiers, and a lossless digital source.
If an album is bad recorded, mixed, and mastered it will sound horrible even on high end equipment.While is a good recording,mixed and mastered you can enjoy it even on low end equipment.I always found that vinyl players and cables prices are way to high for what they offer.
Horses for courses. Unfortunately, the more exclusive courses will always be snarled or laughed at by those who feel upset by their own exclusion. It makes them feel better. I'm excluded, but I love peering over the fences to see what's going on! :)
To understand horses, you must learn to ride and care for horses. Those who don't, just see them as pretty much a big dog you can ride. They don't get it. To get it you must experience it.
Paul I must say that your logic and passions are uniquely and solidly in place. Thanks for your thoughtful videos and needless to say an amazing and growing product line.
How true, it’s in the eye of the beholder. I sat in on a system consisting of Kharma Exquisite Classique , VAC 450 iQ mono blocks and VPI. Costs about $200k. Was not impressed. But the Muradio Domain Omni PX2 with Triangle Art mono blocks and turntable which was crazy in price was super impressive.
Hey Paul great video. I’m on the DirectStream Dac journey I hope to be able to acquire it one day soon. I’ve yet to personally hear it, but if it’s everything I’ve read and seen on RUclips, it’s the Dac for me. I definitely agree with your diminishing return statement. After the wow factor of a better than run of the mill product to an true entry level audiophile piece, the next step is much more expensive and the increase in sound quality is better but not as dramatic.Thanks for all your great, entertaining and useful videos.
Paul is absolutely correct here in that as price goes up there is generally speaking a smaller and smaller amount of benefit that is gained with each additional dollar spent, as we approach a point of optimality. This concept is called diminishing marginal utility. However, what happens when there is no additional benefit to be gained from the next dollar spent, but you keep right on spending more and more anyway? That's called conspicuous consumption. This is when you gain nothing at all from spending more but you keep doing it anyway, either in an effort try and impress yourself or those around you by what you are spending. Under this concept, even though you get no measurable benefit from doing so, you WANT something more simply by virtue of the fact that it costs more to acquire it. And, the higher the price of the item goes, the more you want it as a result. As you can see, at some point we start to leave the world of rational behavior behind and get into just plain silliness and pure absurdity. As we well know from looking at many of the extremely high-end home audio systems that have been put together for far in excess of $1 million dollars, there are some incredibly rich people out there that have the luxury of being able to leave the world of rational behavior behind without even giving it a second thought.
IMHO I have found that the sound gets better to a point and then the money doubles for almost nothing and then triples for even less. I also have never found a system that don't need a Equalizer. Even Live shows are run through a board. Maybe if I had a system build for a specific room but all rooms are different and being I have moved over the years I would have had to build multiple stereos over the years. I wont even get into if the HVAC is running or the windows are open (air pressure changes) or humidity changes.
The honest answer: many of these so called audiophiles who insist on a $200 grand system wouldn't know the difference of a $10 grand system in a true double blind test. Rich people are idiots too and they demand they part with their money in ways which make them seem "sophisticated."
On speakers costing over $10K and up, sometimes you might get your money’s worth and other times you may very well be getting ripped off. Its not as simple as black & white.
Hey Paul Merry Christmas. I hope you reply. I am in the process of putting together a 2.1 system incorporating a Pro-ject turntable as I've been out of the vinyl side for many years but I also am more than likely going to be streaming. Can you recommend products that are not extremely expensive to accomplish this. For example a better phono preamp a streamer. I know you make to very good units. Thank you
Thanks so much for your prompt and honest reply/suggestion. I plan on eventually getting your phono preamp or Direct Streamer. I own your older GCHA Headphone Amplifier that I've been enjoying with the Pro-ject Debut Carbon Espirit DS, Tube Box S and AKG 702 headphones. My deepest condolence for the passing of Arnie I was a big fan of him. I've owned Infinity Delta Gammas a very smaller version of Your much loved big Infinity speakers. Last great speakers I had were his Genesis 300 again Merry Christmas all the best in the New Year to you and yours.
Mr. McGowan , the components with the worst reputation for being way over-the-top expensive are speakers. There are too many cheap components used and high mark-ups put on. I've heard some DIY speakers blow away brand name bought speakers that were 10 times more expensive. Something just doesn't add up.
...check out the msrp on most of the stands. It's as if manufacturers think to themselves, "Well, the person at the show is willing to part with several thousand dollars for the speakers...why not try and pretend the stands they're sitting on are reasonably priced at $800?"
You can build a house yourself for a lot cheaper, all parts are available in Home Depot. You can build a kit car for a lot cheaper than buying from a dealer. You don't have any workers to pay, no resellers to up prices, no product support cost, no warranty cost, no research and development cost.. yes it's cheaper. I have medium cost speakers $2.5k(Golden Ear Triton 2) and a $4k (Klipsch Palladium) speakers. Worth the price in my opinion.
Being satisfied with the speakers you have is fine , but just out of curiosity , try building similar speakers , naturally with some quality components. You can be sure that the final results are going to make you very angry because they will sound better for a fraction of the price.
I think Paul McGowan has been working on and off his soon to be release speakers for years and probably put a few thousand hours on that project. So you're saying an average DIY guy with barely any audio experience can put together parts and beat his speakers for 1/10th or maybe 1/2 the cost?
Do you want to make a bet my friend ? Crack open any speaker and see the flimsy wire and shitty crossovers they put in. You have to understand it's mostly mark-up and if you're good at fooling people , it's a great business to be in.
I've seen some beautiful metal cabinets, I don't know if there is much practical value, but they are beautiful and it is not cheap to make them, and to make sure that cabinet stays clean until it gets to you.
I completely agree that PS Audio has the where with all to produce an extremely good wireless turntable and cartridge combination. You could then add the receiver function to the PS Audio preamps. IMO the RIAA curve translation would have to be in the turntable and the preamp would see it as a wireless HDMI input. The standards are all there. Paul would probably find an audience for such a product.
Thanks Paul, and very succinctly put given the complexity of the topic, but you're spot on. The law of diminishing returns applies to everything. I like your analogy with automobiles. You're going to get a massive performance jump from a Corolla to a Hurracan, less so from a Hurracan to a GTE spec racing car. And then there's the super purpose-specific designs like LM Prototypes of Formula 1 cars where no expense is spared to maximize performance, even if this costs $200m to go a tenth of a second faster a lap. For you or I, the latter cost can never be justified, but if you're an F1 racing team, that expense is a necessity.
Sounds like a problem of demand. Any chance you can find a way to mass produce and compete with the common dirt cheap audio? I guess this is always in mind already. Good informative video in any case.
Larry Niles that's because in order to make it current, you needed to buy an $800 "upgrade". So the original price went to shit. You don't find that with equipment really ready got release. The Sony HAP Z1 for example
My philosophy with audio equipment is if you're going to spend serious cash relative to your income, spend it on professional studio equipment. There's still some snake oil and brand nonsense there but it's not nearly as prevalent as it is within the home consumer market. From my experience spending for example $2k on a pair of studio monitors is always going to give you better results than spending the same amount on a pair of hi fi speakers and an amp. If you have an endless budget then by all means spend it how you like but if you're looking for "good" audio and you have a limited budget, go with studio stuff. The only downside is it does bring some inconvenience with it but that will in turn make you think about stuff like room acoustics and proper wiring so if you're serious about audio you'll end up learning something useful.
you have a point that the quality is high for the money, but the sound is very dry, clinical in most cases.. a hifi speaker and a monitor aim to do something different.. monitors are made to reveal al details and work on them for long hours, but are imho not always the most pleasant to listen en enjoy the music..
Studio monitors and Hi Fi speakers sound different and have different applications. I have also seen more superior componets being used in hi end audio as opposed to professional studio equipment.
A lot of myths I'm seeing here. Like thinking that studio monitors are made to sound "flat", "dry" or "clinical". They're made to sound accurate. You want accurate representation of sounds when mixing and mastering a recording. You'd think an audiophile would also want accuracy when listening to a recording but apparently not? There are so many conflicting ideologies within this hobby. Like adding noise and distortion to your system because you want that je ne sais quoi sound that valves or vinyl records give you but then completely swearing against any form of tone control, dsp or equalization. How ironic. Sure, monitors are ugly and bulky and won't have the most dazzling paint job and looks are after all important too. Anyway, the point I'm making is that per dollar spent you're getting a better value out of studio gear if sound quality is your main goal.
It's kind of like watching a great movie in 1980 on a two channel stereo. Fast forward today, do you remember the movie itself or that it was poor because it was limited to two channel stereo?
Part of that high cost is also for the people that want to belong to a very select group. More power to them. I also decide what I will pay and not pay. Having said that I know that upscale audio is better period. How much better and how much you will pay to get there is your business. Also, there are products out in the market now that are really good and don't cost a big dollar. So for those who have a limited budget, do your homework and you will be surprised how good you can get!
Beyond one point, your returns will diminish significantly. Beyond that, there's another point where there are objectively no returns. The question is "how much are YOU willing to spend" on an audio system. If it's $50,000 or more, you have too much money to be able to make sound decisions. Yes that's a pun.
Depends. Do you prefer just performance or audio jewelry? The difference between a $2000 and a $10000 amp is the expensive chassis which does nothing for the sound.
I enjoy good quality in both build and sound but you will never see me spending over 500 for a pair of speakers. My current speakers are a pair of design acoustic da-900. I found them in the trash and put new surrounds on the woofers and they outperform anything else i have owned. In fact my yamaha receiver, eq, tuner, and cd changer came from the side of the road. The only reason for audio equipment or anything else to be outrageously expensive is because there are people in the world with more money than brains.
At your level you've never been exposed to a true high end audio system. When that day comes you will experience the awakening of your ears. You just don't know how much better it can be until you experience how much better it can be. I once thought like you do. And 20 years ago a 500 dollar price tag on a pair of speakers was a stretch for my budget. I've owned a 7700 dollar pair set of speakers for 19 years now. Their sound GOT ME. There was no turning back. I had to have them. And I've had them for 19 years and I'm listening to them as I write this. I love their sound as much today as on the day I first heard them. Definitely, totally worth it. The next big step up in speaker quality is out of my reach for now. That'd run me at least 15K. Don't have that to spend. But the day will come.
Short comment on turntables. IMO putting huge amounts of $$$$ into a turntables and cartridge has quickly diminishing returns. At some point, and pretty quickly, your cartridge and turntable are better then the original cutting table and cutting cartridge for most LP's. So spending $10k on a turntable and cartridge really gets you nothing better then spending $2k on the combination. Except in the case of a very very rare LP.
Exactly! What is one trying to get out of high end audio? It all depends on that person! Period. If a speaker places a musical note and it cost $250. Well then that person is never gonna buy $40,000 speakers. Plus circuit boards just like anything have solder joints. So if a piece of solder carries that digital signal through multiple components, to a DAC, then rca cable, then to a amp...... what ever the chain may be..... you would then think at least the good basics to electronics will attend just fine!
As Paul Barton said, it's pretty hard for an honest bang for bucks company like his, to sell high end to customers who associate exorbitant pricing with extreme performance. PSB is just not expensive enough, which reminds me of the definition of a luxury item: something that few can afford
This answer was mostly a cop out Paul come on man I do understand there are a lot of products in the audio industry that are absurdly overpriced and some are down right snake oil cost of materials, labor, electrical, parts, engineering but Paying more then $100 for an audio cable is insane
As Don McClean wrote, "the more you pay, the more its worth". The pursuit of audiophile high fidelity rarely mentions, just buy high quality headphones. No speaker can match that.
none of these $ 600,000 wilson speakers or $35000 cable matters , if the studio recording engr flunked in recording 101 in the first place ((some albums releasing today), but does matter on albums like DSOTM by pink floyd and such.
he kept repeating "prickly". Yeah, because he didn't want to say that his products are outrageously priced compared to a much cheaper (but still high quality) and the audio quality gained is not justified in the price.
Hi Paul...Just wanted you to know how much I enjoy your videos. I've learned so much about audio from you, I wish I could show my appreciation by buying some of your equipment. For now I'm relegated to used equipment. Onkyo IR..Mission bookshelves...Phase Tech sub. I use my LG G7 to stream from Tidal. It's supposed to be the phone to own if you're serious about quality sound. It'll have to suffice for now and I admit it sounds pretty good but if I ever have the available funds to build a real legit system I wouldn't think twice about which brand to purchase. Yours. You're truly a breath of fresh air in this snake oil infested world we live in. Thanks again.
Thank you, very well put. I'm upgrading grading currently to the tune of $45k for starters. I think that I have an idea of my end goals...we shall see. I really enjoy your perspectives and down to earth practical approach.
As Paul says, beside questionable high priced products, you can produce a good product out of good/expensive BoM as well as you can produce a bad product out of same good/expensive BoM. Both would have reached same production cost but then one is to be remarkable better than the other.
Great discussion I agree on ALL counts! with that said it mates no sense to buy cables that out perform your electronics unless, you’re on an upgrade path within a 1 to 3 year period of time we are going to buy the better cables, the more expensive cables because you’re gonna grow into those cables with better electronics!
Products with those prices attached to them should come with an expert in room acoustics treatment. I've seen too many people paying insane money for insanely expensive gear without having a decent room to put it in; it becomes a bad joke. Make your room sound great for up to a thousand dollars before spending tens of thousands of dollars on gear, it'll be worth it! You can probably make your system sound a lot better by spending a few hundred bucks (tops) in acoustic treatment instead of spending a million on some esoteric audio gear.
IMHO put your money into buying the very best amplifier you can afford. Then go from there building the rest of the system. Example. Many years ago I bought an M&K 3 piece system. 2 bookshelf speakers and a powered sub woofer. Sounded very good in the store. Brought it home and I was very,very,very disappointed in the sound. Saved some money for a few months. Then I bought Accom amp. and preamp. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!! . That is why I say buy an amp first.
High end audio, over rated art, most haute cuisine...."I don't buy it". Move around it. Spend your money smarter. And still enjoy quality. In audio, for a fraction of the cost, you can connect perfectly well with an artfull musical expression. Also as an audiophile experience.
Let's be honest here: the prices go up by 300%-500% from the manufacturer up to the retail store. A cable costing $1000 in a retail shop is bought for less than $200 from the manufacturer. An amplifier costing $3000 at the retailer's shop costs less than $1000 for the manufacturer (including the materials and its margin). The real prices are low, very low ... the outcome is just outrageous!
The value is much about the budget. If you have a limited budget, then you shouldn't use more than about 10.000. Dollars for a system. The higher you get, you get diminishing returns. And most people would be satisfied with a system for less than 2000 dollars.
1980 = Music that matters 2020 = Equipments that’s matters. 1980 = any thing is ok as long as it plays music and sounds sweet. 2020 = any thing is fine as long as it’s famous and expensive.
There is high-performance audio gear and high performance "luxury market" gear. The luxury products are rack jewelry that are often beautiful to look at, but their performance is rarely significantly better than other value-oriented high performance gear offered at a fraction of the cost. Luxury-oriented gear is just as much about the customer's purchasing and ownership "experience" as it is about actual performance. Often the enclosures are exquisitely finished works of art which substantially increases the manufacturing cost and naturally, the price of the product. Some products however also employ hyper expensive exotic materials. For example, Magico loudspeakers use difficult to produce and stratospherically priced graphene, a nano-composite material in many of their drivers along with other rare and expensive metals like beryllium. And don't forget their trademark non-resonant, elaborately constructed enclosures that take skilled workers days to build. Concerning electronics, this concept is no better illustrated than by companies like Odyssey Audio that use the same circuit boards as the high end and high priced Symphonic Line, but achieve huge cost savings by using commonly available parts and well-made but spartan enclosures. And yet their Khartago and Stratos power amps still manage to have stunning performance for less than one-tenth the cost of the superb Symphonic Line gear. Unlike most manufacturers, Odyssey offers its amp customers multiple parts and power supply upgrades for those wanting even better performance. Constellation Audio also does something similar for their electronics line, where the base and higher priced models use the same circuit design but differ in their use of, higher specification and much higher priced, limited producion precision parts for each pricing tier as you go higher in their product lines.
The guy I bought my amp from told me the same thing - don’t buy new because it depreciates rapidly, similar to a car in that way. I bought a very nice amp for over a $1000 less than he paid for it just two years ago (he gave me his receipt).
Yes, sir you make more than a couple of good points; the law of diminishing returns. There is also Zeno's Paradox, but I could be mistaken, and that story may not be very relevant here. Anyhow, I agree with 8 out of 10, or something to that amount of what you said, and explained very well; but not DAC. And just like MP3, MQS is not going to be much better. Bring back music CDs! Fortunately there are records. Enough said.
paul, let me give you my 2 centsin here: the equipments ate like somebody starting a given sport... n the beginning with pratice they will improve a lot, but as time goes by, they will have to train more and more to improve like 3% or 5% a time. so its for the audios, you get to put even more effort (money) to achieve a small improvement. and after the max perfirmance is achieved, the products become more like a jewerly product than anything else.. its like conparison a top of the line Casio Watch with atomic adjustments and everything and it works better than a Rolex, but its not a Rolex. Thats the importance of branding. and i dont blame who wants a Rolex. it is their desire and their “needs”
If you build a 50mil mansion, and your listening room is an important part of your mansion, $650K is a minor but important investment. Imagine what they spend on the kitchen, silverware, and swimming pool.
I thought that the idea of HiFi was to come as close to the live event as possible. If you are spending millions on HiFi then cheaper to attend the live event.
In the headphone world it’s so much cheaper & you still get heaven, most expensive headphones cables I’ve seen we’re like 300 and were beautifully made, a high end headphone amp starts around 1k$ along with DACs & headphones
@@kalijasin ooof that was years ago, it’s not even that expensive to get good sound tho, i have a couple of headphones & amps & one main dac & they all my babiesss
@@wolfyklip I'm 88 years old ! I went through gramophone , monophonic, stereophonic, tube, solid state; from shellac records, to long-play, to LD, VCD, CD, DVD....and have no idea what the future will be !!
when viewed through the lens of industrial legos....no. it's not.custom builds and the time it takes to create them justifies a spike in price but as always...the law of diminishing returns rules supreme..
I think when someone is judging whether a product is "overpriced" all you really need to do is look at the company's profit margin. If a product is expensive but the cost to make said product is high then I dont see a problem. What I have a problem with is companys who set there retail price at extremely high levels ,example 400% or more! Hell even 100% markup is just ridiculous! At the end of the day if someone will pay then company's will continue to sell! Just because people will buy certain products that are overpriced doesnt make it ethical!! High end audio is full of overpriced products promising all kind of things! Sadly the difference between let's say a 300 dollar DVD blueray player and a 1800 dollar one is negligible at best and certainly not that much better to justify a 600% difference in price! The same goes for amps,speakers etc! PS audio is just as guilty ! Just take a look at there prices! I'm a huge music lover and I have been known to spend ridiculous amounts of money on things I love but when I went to look at ps audios prices I was extremely shocked ! I just can't justify paying the prices they ask considering what you get !
My mostly McIntosh setup cost more than the average car I'm embarrassed to say. The best audio is the one with no frequency bottlenecks. Hypothetically I can get 95% of what a elite system that cost more than an Bugatti can. Some very rich folks are paying 20x more than I did for that last 5%.
People can't tell the difference between consumer and boutique products. A 50usd cable is consumer a 10.000usd cable is boutique. A cheap watch will tell you the time exactly like a Rolex but you never say to a guy with a Rolex that it is not a value for money product and that the gold used can't justify the huge price. As with all boutique products the question is a) Do you have the money and b) Do you want to spend the money? Another issue people overlook is the "know how" To design a cable for example is simple, to design a cable using your own original ideas about how to make it better than the competition is hard. Part of the price you pay is for the expertise. I agree that there is a lot of marketing BS and snake oil in audio market with companies trying to present ordinary products as unique in order to justify the prices. This however is another issue.
Calaf_72 Hilarious! Cables are the #1 snake oil product in audio. Everyone… except you, apparently, knows this to be true. How about instead of what you feel, you actually ask an engineer who is NOT in the business of selling cables? Christians say God created the world in seven days. All geologists disagree. That doesn't keep them from preaching it, though. Audiophile - A religion for people with more money than sense. A place where, "science be damned" because *I* hear the difference!
Richard Larson it is amazing how you manage to involve geologists and religion here lol talk about hilarious.... If you can't hear a difference don't go bully people that do. Audio is a noble but demanding hobby and not for everyone. I hear collecting butterflies is super exciting give it a try.
If you would be buying speaker cables for 35k would you buy those at MSRP? Would you buy a car at MSRP? Probably not. I would not buy those cables - still too expensive for me. The top line would be $35 per meter for me.
I wish I could describe how grateful I am for the whole ask Paul series. It is a true treasure trove of enrichment for the world! Keep going on my Friend!
I think people pay insane money for some things, yes, and that is insane to do, at least in my own value structure. I live in an apartment and own one car, and my other car is not a pair of Wilsons or conspicuous-consumption speakers; my only commercial speakers are a pair of Thiel CS1.7 which sold for under a couple grand and I got them for less. I think conspicuous consumption has become a part of it -- and it didn't used to be that way -- but when you look at who is buying, I think the prices are a function of who is buying. And not necessarily in this country, but in other countries, where they have "f-- you" money just bubbling out of the ground, and oil sheikhs wanting to impress their neighbors in Dubai. Or financial barons in London. Hollywood celebrities, college professors, and record executives in this country. Oligarchs in Russia. Mobsters in Washington D.C. (am I wrong?) Speaker manufacturers I know (and I know a few) aren't in the business to fleece their customers any more than any luxury product manufacturer, but they are universally passionate about pushing the envelope and demonstrating just how far the available technology and design are capable of carrying the product, and by the time they are done, the product is ambitious and expensive just by nature. The buyers of expensive speakers are not audio engineers, so they are normally not willing to build a "kit" speaker, and they know they are not buying chopped liver -- they expect an exceptionally crafted product made from exceptional materials, with exceptional styling, design, and refinement, and they expect it to be delivered, set up, tuned, and serviced/repaired. All those things cost a loudspeaker company money. On top of that, the speaker and its component parts have to be engineered, sourced, assembled, measured, marketed, distributed, represented, floored, sold, delivered, set up, tuned to the room, and serviced under warranty, and where the audio dealer performs those services they expect to get a bigger cut of the margin. Then there's legal, accounting, regulatory compliance, and real estate expenses, capital equipment expenses, and so on. The value of the speaker is NOT equal to the sum total cost of the components in the BOM, and if you don't get that, well that's why we can't have nice things around here. Lastly, while some people do buy brands based upon reputation, that reputation is developed over time and carefully managed to be one of expertise, care, and craftsmanship, and none of those things come cheap. When you walk around the audio shows, nobody is really getting filthy rich doing this - they are just passionate, involved people and they dress well, but they aren't becoming celebrities or driving around in Lambos, even though many sell to the Lamborghini set.
Price is irrelevant if you can afford it. Most of us here watching your videos would not blink buying a full meal at McDonalds and may not pay any attention to the price of each item. But someone in a lessor financial position may be price sensitive and would have to consider the price of each item. Ultra high-end products of anything is not for the price sensitive buyer. Unfortunately, I am not in that financial position.
All copper for electrical use is 99.98 O2 free sure cables mater but lots of pseudoscience and marketing competing for your audio $. For me costly DACs are not a good value since computers they are obsoleted quickly and advancements are frequent still its nice that some offer upgrades like PS audio. I once had a nice chat with a designer of one of the audio press favorite loudspeaker brands he was talking about how much aluminum costs as justification for massive retail costs I pointed out the best billet aluminum is $2300 a metric ton. Sure you need a CNC but come on much of audio pricing is just a race audiophiles feel cost correlates to performance manufacturers top models must increase in cost since its what the market demands still I see a end to the madness.
35,000 dollar cables they'd better be some pure silver uber shielded and actually offer better sound quality "special cables" have been proven to be snake oil already lol
First of all money's are for spending. And depending of how money you have to spend and what are your interests you could and should go and spend those money! Everything comes with price. And of course. You couldn't and you shouldn't expect the costs of the materials to build something to match the price of the final product. And once again, audiophiles don't care of the price, for them only sound quality matters. And yeah only wealthy people can afford extremely expensive high end Audio equipment. But who cares?!! Since there are so small differences between high end Audio System with middle cost audio system, we, "the ordinary people", could easily go with the normal price.
I think you left out an important aspect that has to be considered. You don't see your average $50-100-200,000 a year worker spending $65,000 on a single pair of interconnects. It's just not reasonable. When you buy a 300,000 pair of loudspeakers you usualy add on more than another $300,000 for equipment I rarely see a system for under 1million dollars with a pair of 3-500,000 dollar pair of speakers. These speakers arnt designed for normal people they are designed for this most outragous of enthusiasts. So when you say "can these products be fiscaly justified" yes they can. Because the consumer can justify the expense at these levels, if you like cars a lot. And you have money you don't buy a "new" camaro cause it handel's well you might not even concider buying a new corvette. You buy a farrari and people will still ask you "what you couldn't afford a lambo" when your passionate about something there is no "too much money" when you have money. Most people don't save their money for a year to buy a new pair of loudspeakers for a half million dollars these people already have that money and there willing to spend it for what they want. It's kinda like a normal person buying a $200 pair of speakers or spending a little extra and splurging for a $500 pair of speakers because they fit there taste better but these people arnt making a decision as to whether to buy a $10,000 system or a 1,000,000 dollar system. Because if your happy with the $10,000 system you probably won't apriciate the $1,000,000 system 100 times more. People arnt asking themselves do I really a $80,000 pair of speakers cables they want them and right there is the value to them. It's something that dosent effect there pocketbook eitherway and they want it. Like when you say I could make my coffee to go but I really like those mocacinos at Starbucks so Im going to stop on my way to work. It's an obsession to have the absaloute best and price isn't an option at this point. But I enjoyed the video I just wanted to put my 2 cents in that I didn't hear you mention, but mabey your legos distracted me and I missed it!
If you are patient enough, and know how to shop, anybody can put together an amazing system with used equipment on the cheap. It does take patience, but you can get a truly audiophile system under 2k...for everything
yes i did something pretty similar on a 'beer budget' ... would be an APEX system in the early 90s ... and probably cost around 30K or so but didn't cost me much more than 4-5K
+Sharpie the Parrot
I have an amp that is 200+200 w @ 0.1% THD (at full rated output) and some home hacked speakers that mimic the "KEF Uni-Q" speakers and are point-source (just like the real KEF Uni-Q). High power combined with point source sound image and tuned speakers makes it sound like a million dollars when it costs very little.The amp cost $330 brand new and the speakers cost about $500 to make.
Once you hear two-way point source there is go going back. I made the speakers from drivers I bought from eBay and you have to find drivers that fit well together (and it's hard but I can give you some links to drivers that fit). Some bass/med "guitar" drivers have a large voice coil and you can buy some fairly good 1" dome tweeters that have a small overall diam (like 1.5"). You may have to strip them down somewhat (lol). I chose car 1" domes cos they were the only one's small enough for the job cos I had to mount the tweeter inside the bass driver's 2" voice coil (cavity). This makes a two-way point source speaker (like the KEF Uni-Q).
The vast majority of full-range FR speakers don't have enough top end to give you the proper point source "super image"...unless you are willing to pay multiple times the price as two-way point source speakers. 3 grand may be a lot for some two-way point source speakers (like the KEF) but Feastrex sell FR speakers for like over 20X the price and you only get two 8" drivers (and nothing else). So this seems that the cheaper FR speakers aren't any good if those are that expensive. A far better option seems is to go two-way and get (inherently) more hf response cos of the physics. That simple! But it's not that simple cos you now have to find the right drivers that fit. But KEF made it that simple by making their own drivers.
And then you have to intensity match the bass and treble drivers (it's also a problem). With bullet tweeters in my point source PA speakers, I had to resist the bullet tweeters, and when I used the dome tweeters in my lounge speakers I had to resist the bass drivers instead. A vast difference in efficiency of the two different type tweeters. Also "guitar" driverers are way more efficient than cheap full-blown hi-fi woofers. I also had to resisted the car tweeters a little as well, but only to match impedance. I used 2 ohms (6 ohm tweeter instead of 8 ohm) cos they are heaps inefficient compared to the bass drivers. And I also had to resist the bass/med "guitar" speakers cos they are heaps efficient and too loud for the tweeters if not resisted. As you can tell it's a nightmare to match the drivers both in space and sound (so you can have point source). But with that sorted (and with a crossover) they are (by far) the best speakers I ever had! And the thinner cone of the guitar speaker makes way superior med to any cheap full blown hi-fi woofer (by a large measure)! And the bass is still good cos the "guitar" drivers have massive magnets (even if they are stiff suspension). There is a vent hole through the bass/med drivers, for easier tweeter mounting and access for tweeter cables. I can move the tweeters up and down the voice coil cavity to get the best phasing (by placing the tweeter at the optimum "point source" level with the bass cone). I made my own cabinets and crossovers as well. And the speakers sound how I want them to sound.
I agree 👍
@@Justwantahover nevermind all that did you get a hover?
I've been on the piano business for almost 50 years. A grand piano with 12,000.parts made from wood, felt, brass highest quality music wire, 100s of hours of labor, high packaging costs, shipping costs, dealer floor space, piano technicians needed to prepare before and go to the customers home after sales, 10 year warranty and so on, can be purchased for less than a 2 metre cable or an expensive cartridge that takes an hour to make. Do the math
Profiteering plain and simple.
For anyone interested in the science from a materials scientist:
What he his talking about is a polycrystalline copper. This mean that you have segments of a copper that are of one orientation in the lattice when they are separated, however, when they are in the copper they do not align. When two crystalline regions of different orientations come together and meet, it forms a grain boundary. It is well known in the research that electron scattering can occur at these defect points would could introduce potential noise in a signal. However, I am not sure whether this is perceivable by the human ear.
I'm not a materials scientist but I'm going to say that the difference is NOT perceivable by the human ear. especially someone old enough to afford this high-end junk.
Don't pay a dime more for a difference you can't hear.
Well, I just heard a 300,000 dollar system recently. It does sound slightly better than my 30,000 dollar system. So where am I going to scrape up an extra 270,000 dollars?
This is why I want to build not buy. 2 way 8 ohm speakers with high efficiency 15 inch woofers that have a phase plug and 100+ dB efficient ribbon tweeters with a 4th order 2.2kHz linkwitz Riley crossover.
@@Turboy65 The suggestion was a dime. LOL. After you know that you are hearing everything that was recorded, everything the producer intended you to hear, ???? Ok, I'm a musician, a player if you will. We don't typically have expensive stereos primarily because chasing 75-150 dollars a night doesn't support it. Even with the occasional better-paying studio gigs, which are getting fewer and farther between, spending 30,000 for a stereo doesn't quite fit my current goals of eating and bathing regularly. I can assure you though, I can hear the difference in Liszt played on a Steinway and Liszt played on a Bosendorfer. Enjoy your system. I'm sure it sounds wonderful. Also, you could invite me over so I can hear how good I REALLY sound. LOL
hellaua aint that the truth
Absolutely, some people can't taste the difference between a MacDonald's burger and a Michelin Star burger. For those people, there's definitely no point paying more.
My approach was to buy enough land that I could listen to music without worrying about offending neighbors. I bought an 1890 house with no drywall, and no plaster; just old-growth fir. So my music investment was more about the listening environment than the gear.
I base my equipment purchases on 1) my budget 2) physics 3) perceived incremental improvement 4) craftsmanship.
Good idea 👍🏻
Paul is just a true gent.
I think you mean True a-gent....he's good at selling BULLSHIT
Either way at least these guys have the aptitude to have CLASS Instead of taking advantage of the medium like some.
And materials matter. Period. Sourcing them. Knowing what to source... Ect..
@@bryanp4827
That's like saying higher-cost products, in general, are worse than lower-cost ones. You map-out what your goal is, set limits for price and the like, and you stay with it. Just because it exists, doesn't mean you must have it!
That’s one word for it.
Once you get to a certain level, it just becomes an extremely wealthy man's bragging rights at an event in his own home. The emperor always needs new clothes and only the BEST will do.
Sometimes, it's a matter of buying something that will fill a large room. Ever been to a mansion where they have high ceilings and are relatively large rooms? Some of these people have rooms where only certain speakers will fill the room where it's listenable, which is why they tend to buy these large speakers. Putting a small bookshelf speaker simply won't work in a large room. how many companies make speakers for these large rooms and how much do they cost? Typically speaking, one has to spend at least $100K or more if you room is a certain size since anything smaller, regardless of the sound quality simply won't go loud enough for these large rooms, so their other choice would be a PA system, but PA systems aren't as good because they are designed more for going loud and being durable to travel rather than sound quality. So for those wealthy enough to have a mansion, with large rooms, if they want to have a high quality stereo that will fill the room with good sound, they have to spend gobs of money because that's simply what's available for that application.
yes, the wealthy have egos to support and some simply don't give a rip how much it costs, just as long as they feel it's the best you can get and there isn't anything better or more expensive. That's why companies like MIT cables can charge $80K on speaker cables. Heck, if I had the money, I'd probably buy them too. Ya go around once and having huge amounts of money is meant to be spent and enjoyed. So why not? :-)
It's the same philosophy as car enthusiasts that have large amounts of disposable income. If they want a custom one of a kind Rolls Royce and spend $13 Million on one, then by all means, go for it. Rolls Royce's are only practical for super wealthy people where anything less simply won't do. :-)
99% of the LP's are created with pretty standard cutting tables and cutting cartridges. A $50,000 table and cartridge is not going to make a 70's era LP sound any better. But, if that's what makes you feel good and impress your neighbors go for it.
That's exactly it.
A product's price isn't about 'quality'.. it's about supply vs demand and value.
Value of a product isn't about it's ability to perform it's function (i.e. produce sound) but rather, especially in the high end, about how it makes people feel to own it.
You can buy a speaker cabinet made from sturdy wood that costs 100 bucks per square meter.. or you could buy a speaker cabinet made from special hand-picked wood that was cut from some bigass 5000yo tree in a rain forest that costs 10k per square meter. Does it sound better? Hell, it might even sound WORSE. That doesn't change the fact that the exclusivity of it gives it value to certain people the same way some oil sheiks drive around in a 40 karat gold plated Lamborghini even though gold is probably not the lightest, sturdiest nor most aerodynamic of materials.
Those type of exclusive audio products that cost upwards of a ton aren't for expert audiophiles.. they're for rich people that have more money than they know how to spend usefully.
Actually, you're flat out wrong on that. All industry standard record lathes are rigidly constructed, massive systems that are built from the ground up to ensure that the only vibration that gets recorded to the record is the signal to be recorded, and at the precisely correct speed. There is a large effort made to isolate the master being cut from all external sources of vibration. The motivating factors behind high end turntables are all about speed stability and the ability to dampen vibration and get the purest signal possible off the record and into your preamp. All those vibration and speed control systems cost money. Even in a modest system, you WILL hear the difference when you step up a level to a better turntable. And you'll hear a difference when you step up to a better cartridge. I say this because it's true and I'm not even much of a vinyl guy. My turntable says Technics on it. But I've heard turntables that get a lot more out of my records than mine does, and their price range starts at just a few hundred dollars and if you want even better, you can get it, for a higher price. That ladder of price and performance has many rungs on it. How high do you want to spend?
@@ayporos You're mostly wrong about this. Not completely but wrong enough I have to call you out on it. The fact is that most high end audio products are built from premium quality components and made in small quantities which means that the economies of large scale manufacture don't apply. They're designed by specialist engineers and the product development cycle is typically longer than that of normal consumer products. They're tested and evaluated and designs are revised, usually several times, before production even starts. The embedded costs of these better engineered products are higher than consumer hi fi gear and for all of these reasons they end up costing more.
I myself have a rather decent system, built on a tight budget and bought almost entirely on the used market. Still, it's a system that originally cost over 30,000 dollars to somebody, so it's nothing to sneeze at by any standard. And it sounds incredible. Anybody who hears it loves it. They just don't get to hear music sound that good at home, unless they're also willing to spend money on a better system and have already done so. And it's not about the speaker cabinets. Those are actually veneered very thick MDF, very rigid, very solid, and very heavy, but it's not the cabinets that's where the money is invested. It's in very fine high performance drivers and a crossover that's perfectly engineered to the characteristics of the drivers. I pick equipment with my ears and don't buy new. I can't afford that. So you can be assured, what I have performs enormously better than a regular stereo system with big box speakers. You're talking about VWs, I'm talking about Ferraris. You can go get groceries in either one. But they're not the same thing and one is far more capable of doing certain things than the other.
as long as there are people who buys these expensive stuff, the price range will just keep going up.
Choa Park
agreed. just like the housing market where a house that should cost 50k ends up costing 175k.
Gizmo Thewytchdoktor but at least with houses most of the time you get 100% or better return on your investment. I bought a house for $165,000 and sold it five years later for $290,000. That's a lot of return. You can't say that for audio equipment.
$35,000 is cheap for cables. This guy gets better everyday!
So woould I exchange my house for a cable to star a nice system?
@@indirasweetie6416 Your setup cost more than a house? 😯
The fidgeting at the beginning followed by the disclaimer, "I don't want to get in trouble with my fellow manufacturers...." speaks volumes.
Not knocking high-end audio by the way, and if people are willing to pay the prices...that's great. "What the market will bear" always applies. Still trying to work one of the big shows into my schedule and have a listen.
But still, the fidgeting...and the disclaimer.
If your schedule permits - visit Munich High End - the best Hifi Show on the planet. Cheers!
It's "prickly". lol
I have been to several training sessions on selling to wealthy customers. We were always told that these customers want large ostentatious systems to impress their friends and could care little about having the absolute best sound quality, although that was what we were to tell them.
@@FrankiesMarket Beaucoup is the word in French that you are looking for. "Soul brother too beaucoup" as the Vietnamese prostitute said in Full Metal Jacket.
FrankiesMarket I was not aware that Buku was a word, slang or not. I was only aware of the french word. American English has adopted many french words in our lexicon and most, that I’m aware of, are still in their original French spelling (garage, menu, café, boutique , etc). We even use the word “hors d’oeuvre” without changing the spelling and that words is messed up. So why would would change beaucoup to buku? As long as I’ve known the word it’s always been spelled that way. You are the first person I’ve ever seen spell it that way. Bucks is a real word and has been for a long time. Look it the dictionary and you’ll find it.
Paul, you talk in such a familiar manner, as if you are our best friend sitting next, chatting in the living room. That's called charm, and charisma...
I would say, that considering diminishing returns, peoples rooms and general acoustics within the room they place their system, is much more a factor that plays a role than getting those last 2% "performance" from a 10x more expensive system.
People think you are crazy to spend a million on a stereo that I listen to at least 4 hours a day. But most think it's perfectly normal to spend a million on a sport car that only they only drive once a month. I don't get it.
L Lee Both are equally stupid.
steal threaded that's because you don't have it to spend if you did you would.
I have bought me a buggatti veyron the oil changes are a bloody nightmare no wonder I got it so cheap used
People who have the money need to spend it. Most of today economical issue are cause by people who have money and not spending it. Resulting lots of money stuck in the bank under very few names. When the rest of us have problem pay rent every week. And those real expensive stuff require a lot of man hours i.e. every day people working and get pay if rich people are not buying those that means not job for every day people. Resulting everyday people want to buy cheap stuff made out of 3rd world as well. This is a really bad cycle.
That's no way to behave. Who are you to say what a good use of someone else's money is?
All of these things are just to give people warm fuzzy feelings. Some have a lot of money to spend, and you can't blame the manufacturers for taking it from them. If you convince yourself something is supernatural, then it's as good as if it actually were.
I was very skeptical of high end audio and actually went to a high end audio store once, expecting to see expensive equipment that sounded no better than my decent system at home. I came to laugh and ridicule.
Boy, did I end up shocked! I didn't need my eyes to know when their higher range demo systems were running. The difference was so obvious there's no way you could fail to hear it. Today, 20 years later, I OWN the very pair of speakers that were on demo that day 20 years ago in their large system demo room. I've had them for 19 of those 20 years. In fact I have several pieces of gear that were part of that demo system. (I'm not a rich man, so I had to wait and buy them on the used market.)
It's as much of a difference as looking at the moon through a cheap 3" refractor telescope from Wal-Mart and then getting to look at it through the 24" Newtonian telescope at your local college observatory. You just can't know how much better it can be until you experience it for yourself.
Paul is imperative for mentioning "diminishing return" for most products / services. I recalled to attend lecture on risk engineering. For doing things with Improvement 60% to 80%,
Improvement 81% to 90%,
Improvement 91% to 95%,
Improvement 96% to 100%,
The resources input and improvement as output result are linear in relationship at initial stage, but eventually with change to exponential scale at final stage and terminal stage.
Your favorite music sounds good on average equipment. Music you don't dig sounds average on fantastic equipment. Music you dig sounds awesome on awesome equipment. {First music + affordable equipment = happy.}
I would be like the happiest kid in the world if I played melodic dubstep song on awesome equipment for example listening to Velvetine - The Great Divide (Seven Lions Remix) on a pair of B&W 802D3s, Classe amplifiers, and a lossless digital source.
If an album is bad recorded, mixed, and mastered it will sound horrible even on high end equipment.While is a good recording,mixed and mastered you can enjoy it even on low end equipment.I always found that vinyl players and cables prices are way to high for what they offer.
Horses for courses. Unfortunately, the more exclusive courses will always be snarled or laughed at by those who feel upset by their own exclusion. It makes them feel better. I'm excluded, but I love peering over the fences to see what's going on! :)
To understand horses, you must learn to ride and care for horses. Those who don't, just see them as pretty much a big dog you can ride. They don't get it. To get it you must experience it.
Paul I must say that your logic and passions are uniquely and solidly in place. Thanks for your thoughtful videos and needless to say an amazing and growing product line.
How true, it’s in the eye of the beholder. I sat in on a system consisting of Kharma Exquisite Classique , VAC 450 iQ mono blocks and VPI. Costs about $200k. Was not impressed.
But the Muradio Domain Omni PX2 with Triangle Art mono blocks and turntable which was crazy in price was super impressive.
And anything you would own will become just "normal" as time goes by.
Great stuff. I am finding these videos extremely informative. Keep up the good work!
Hey Paul great video. I’m on the DirectStream Dac journey I hope to be able to acquire it one day soon. I’ve yet to personally hear it, but if it’s everything I’ve read and seen on RUclips, it’s the Dac for me. I definitely agree with your diminishing return statement. After the wow factor of a better than run of the mill product to an true entry level audiophile piece, the next step is much more expensive and the increase in sound quality is better but not as dramatic.Thanks for all your great, entertaining and useful videos.
Paul is absolutely correct here in that as price goes up there is generally speaking a smaller and smaller amount of benefit that is gained with each additional dollar spent, as we approach a point of optimality. This concept is called diminishing marginal utility. However, what happens when there is no additional benefit to be gained from the next dollar spent, but you keep right on spending more and more anyway? That's called conspicuous consumption. This is when you gain nothing at all from spending more but you keep doing it anyway, either in an effort try and impress yourself or those around you by what you are spending. Under this concept, even though you get no measurable benefit from doing so, you WANT something more simply by virtue of the fact that it costs more to acquire it. And, the higher the price of the item goes, the more you want it as a result. As you can see, at some point we start to leave the world of rational behavior behind and get into just plain silliness and pure absurdity. As we well know from looking at many of the extremely high-end home audio systems that have been put together for far in excess of $1 million dollars, there are some incredibly rich people out there that have the luxury of being able to leave the world of rational behavior behind without even giving it a second thought.
IMHO I have found that the sound gets better to a point and then the money doubles for almost nothing and then triples for even less. I also have never found a system that don't need a Equalizer. Even Live shows are run through a board. Maybe if I had a system build for a specific room but all rooms are different and being I have moved over the years I would have had to build multiple stereos over the years. I wont even get into if the HVAC is running or the windows are open (air pressure changes) or humidity changes.
Wow. The cynic in me expected a much different answer. Thanks for the transparency.
The honest answer: many of these so called audiophiles who insist on a $200 grand system wouldn't know the difference of a $10 grand system in a true double blind test.
Rich people are idiots too and they demand they part with their money in ways which make them seem "sophisticated."
On speakers costing over $10K and up, sometimes you might get your money’s worth and other times you may very well be getting ripped off. Its not as simple as black & white.
Hey Paul Merry Christmas. I hope you reply. I am in the process of putting together a 2.1 system incorporating a Pro-ject turntable as I've been out of the vinyl side for many years but I also am more than likely going to be streaming. Can you recommend products that are not extremely expensive to accomplish this. For example a better phono preamp a streamer. I know you make to very good units. Thank you
For the moment I would look at Schiit Audio. They are affordable and excellent.
Thanks so much for your prompt and honest reply/suggestion. I plan on eventually getting your phono preamp or Direct Streamer. I own your older GCHA Headphone Amplifier that I've been enjoying with the Pro-ject Debut Carbon Espirit DS, Tube Box S and AKG 702 headphones. My deepest condolence for the passing of Arnie I was a big fan of him. I've owned Infinity Delta Gammas a very smaller version of Your much loved big Infinity speakers. Last great speakers I had were his Genesis 300 again Merry Christmas all the best in the New Year to you and yours.
Mr. McGowan , the components with the worst reputation for being way over-the-top expensive are speakers. There are too many cheap components used and high mark-ups put on. I've heard some DIY speakers blow away brand name bought speakers that were 10 times more expensive. Something just doesn't add up.
...check out the msrp on most of the stands. It's as if manufacturers think to themselves, "Well, the person at the show is willing to part with several thousand dollars for the speakers...why not try and pretend the stands they're sitting on are reasonably priced at $800?"
You can build a house yourself for a lot cheaper, all parts are available in Home Depot. You can build a kit car for a lot cheaper than buying from a dealer. You don't have any workers to pay, no resellers to up prices, no product support cost, no warranty cost, no research and development cost.. yes it's cheaper. I have medium cost speakers $2.5k(Golden Ear Triton 2) and a $4k (Klipsch Palladium) speakers. Worth the price in my opinion.
Being satisfied with the speakers you have is fine , but just out of curiosity , try building similar speakers , naturally with some quality components. You can be sure that the final results are going to make you very angry because they will sound better for a fraction of the price.
I think Paul McGowan has been working on and off his soon to be release speakers for years and probably put a few thousand hours on that project. So you're saying an average DIY guy with barely any audio experience can put together parts and beat his speakers for 1/10th or maybe 1/2 the cost?
Do you want to make a bet my friend ? Crack open any speaker and see the flimsy wire and shitty crossovers they put in. You have to understand it's mostly mark-up and if you're good at fooling people , it's a great business to be in.
I've seen some beautiful metal cabinets, I don't know if there is much practical value, but they are beautiful and it is not cheap to make them, and to make sure that cabinet stays clean until it gets to you.
I completely agree that PS Audio has the where with all to produce an extremely good wireless turntable and cartridge combination. You could then add the receiver function to the PS Audio preamps. IMO the RIAA curve translation would have to be in the turntable and the preamp would see it as a wireless HDMI input. The standards are all there. Paul would probably find an audience for such a product.
Thanks Paul, and very succinctly put given the complexity of the topic, but you're spot on. The law of diminishing returns applies to everything. I like your analogy with automobiles. You're going to get a massive performance jump from a Corolla to a Hurracan, less so from a Hurracan to a GTE spec racing car. And then there's the super purpose-specific designs like LM Prototypes of Formula 1 cars where no expense is spared to maximize performance, even if this costs $200m to go a tenth of a second faster a lap. For you or I, the latter cost can never be justified, but if you're an F1 racing team, that expense is a necessity.
Sounds like a problem of demand. Any chance you can find a way to mass produce and compete with the common dirt cheap audio? I guess this is always in mind already.
Good informative video in any case.
I have a question about diminishing returns, for Dac's.. What is the sweet spot in price you think? 4K?
ya 4k , DACs are moving targets in high end audio
Moving targets as in, every few years there is something new and the old is obselete?
quick turnover in high end compared to speakers amps etc
Larry Niles that's because in order to make it current, you needed to buy an $800 "upgrade". So the original price went to shit. You don't find that with equipment really ready got release. The Sony HAP Z1 for example
My philosophy with audio equipment is if you're going to spend serious cash relative to your income, spend it on professional studio equipment. There's still some snake oil and brand nonsense there but it's not nearly as prevalent as it is within the home consumer market. From my experience spending for example $2k on a pair of studio monitors is always going to give you better results than spending the same amount on a pair of hi fi speakers and an amp.
If you have an endless budget then by all means spend it how you like but if you're looking for "good" audio and you have a limited budget, go with studio stuff. The only downside is it does bring some inconvenience with it but that will in turn make you think about stuff like room acoustics and proper wiring so if you're serious about audio you'll end up learning something useful.
you have a point that the quality is high for the money, but the sound is very dry, clinical in most cases.. a hifi speaker and a monitor aim to do something different.. monitors are made to reveal al details and work on them for long hours, but are imho not always the most pleasant to listen en enjoy the music..
Studio monitors and Hi Fi speakers sound different and have different applications. I have also seen more superior componets being used in hi end audio as opposed to professional studio equipment.
Morne Coetzee true, in studio monitors there are some copycat companies like Berringer who make cheap versions of top equipement..
'pro' equipment doesn't come close to what you can get with 'hifi' equipment - except at the very TOP end ... the midrange stuff is mostly garbage imo
A lot of myths I'm seeing here. Like thinking that studio monitors are made to sound "flat", "dry" or "clinical". They're made to sound accurate. You want accurate representation of sounds when mixing and mastering a recording. You'd think an audiophile would also want accuracy when listening to a recording but apparently not? There are so many conflicting ideologies within this hobby. Like adding noise and distortion to your system because you want that je ne sais quoi sound that valves or vinyl records give you but then completely swearing against any form of tone control, dsp or equalization. How ironic.
Sure, monitors are ugly and bulky and won't have the most dazzling paint job and looks are after all important too. Anyway, the point I'm making is that per dollar spent you're getting a better value out of studio gear if sound quality is your main goal.
It's kind of like watching a great movie in 1980 on a two channel stereo. Fast forward today, do you remember the movie itself or that it was poor because it was limited to two channel stereo?
Part of that high cost is also for the people that want to belong to a very select group. More power to them. I also decide what I will pay and not pay. Having said that I know that upscale audio is better period. How much better and how much you will pay to get there is your business. Also, there are products out in the market now that are really good and don't cost a big dollar. So for those who have a limited budget, do your homework and you will be surprised how good you can get!
Beyond one point, your returns will diminish significantly. Beyond that, there's another point where there are objectively no returns. The question is "how much are YOU willing to spend" on an audio system. If it's $50,000 or more, you have too much money to be able to make sound decisions. Yes that's a pun.
If you are satisfied driving your beetle, you don't need to ask why other people buy Rolls.
Depends. Do you prefer just performance or audio jewelry? The difference between a $2000 and a $10000 amp is the expensive chassis which does nothing for the sound.
I enjoy good quality in both build and sound but you will never see me spending over 500 for a pair of speakers. My current speakers are a pair of design acoustic da-900. I found them in the trash and put new surrounds on the woofers and they outperform anything else i have owned. In fact my yamaha receiver, eq, tuner, and cd changer came from the side of the road. The only reason for audio equipment or anything else to be outrageously expensive is because there are people in the world with more money than brains.
At your level you've never been exposed to a true high end audio system. When that day comes you will experience the awakening of your ears. You just don't know how much better it can be until you experience how much better it can be. I once thought like you do. And 20 years ago a 500 dollar price tag on a pair of speakers was a stretch for my budget. I've owned a 7700 dollar pair set of speakers for 19 years now. Their sound GOT ME. There was no turning back. I had to have them. And I've had them for 19 years and I'm listening to them as I write this. I love their sound as much today as on the day I first heard them. Definitely, totally worth it. The next big step up in speaker quality is out of my reach for now. That'd run me at least 15K. Don't have that to spend. But the day will come.
I think it depends on the person. There are some low cost products that perform very well in the high end audio arena.
Short comment on turntables. IMO putting huge amounts of $$$$ into a turntables and cartridge has quickly diminishing returns. At some point, and pretty quickly, your cartridge and turntable are better then the original cutting table and cutting cartridge for most LP's. So spending $10k on a turntable and cartridge really gets you nothing better then spending $2k on the combination. Except in the case of a very very rare LP.
Exactly! What is one trying to get out of high end audio? It all depends on that person! Period. If a speaker places a musical note and it cost $250. Well then that person is never gonna buy $40,000 speakers. Plus circuit boards just like anything have solder joints. So if a piece of solder carries that digital signal through multiple components, to a DAC, then rca cable, then to a amp...... what ever the chain may be..... you would then think at least the good basics to electronics will attend just fine!
I think the more you spend the better the sound experience, also add a spectrum analyser, disttotion analyzer
P.t. Barnum said it best! "There's a sucker born every minute"!
It is about value and what and how much you value a piece ?
As Paul Barton said, it's pretty hard for an honest bang for bucks company like his, to sell high end to customers who associate exorbitant pricing with extreme performance. PSB is just not expensive enough, which reminds me of the definition of a luxury item: something that few can afford
This answer was mostly a cop out Paul
come on man
I do understand there are a lot of products in the audio industry that are absurdly overpriced and some are down right snake oil
cost of materials, labor, electrical, parts, engineering
but Paying more then $100 for an audio cable is insane
As Don McClean wrote, "the more you pay, the more its worth". The pursuit of audiophile high fidelity rarely mentions, just buy high quality headphones. No speaker can match that.
none of these $ 600,000 wilson speakers or $35000 cable matters , if the studio recording engr flunked in recording 101 in the first place ((some albums releasing today), but does matter on albums like DSOTM by pink floyd and such.
Kind of a vague answer... Sounded like it is not justified but it is what it is.
he kept repeating "prickly". Yeah, because he didn't want to say that his products are outrageously priced compared to a much cheaper (but still high quality) and the audio quality gained is not justified in the price.
Hi Paul...Just wanted you to know how much I enjoy your videos. I've learned so much about audio from you, I wish I could show my appreciation by buying some of your equipment. For now I'm relegated to used equipment. Onkyo IR..Mission bookshelves...Phase Tech sub. I use my LG G7 to stream from Tidal. It's supposed to be the phone to own if you're serious about quality sound. It'll have to suffice for now and I admit it sounds pretty good but if I ever have the available funds to build a real legit system I wouldn't think twice about which brand to purchase. Yours. You're truly a breath of fresh air in this snake oil infested world we live in. Thanks again.
Thank you, very well put. I'm upgrading grading currently to the tune of $45k for starters. I think that I have an idea of my end goals...we shall see. I really enjoy your perspectives and down to earth practical approach.
I love Paul but on this question he's just beating around the bush, but I get it!
As Paul says, beside questionable high priced products, you can produce a good product out of good/expensive BoM as well as you can produce a bad product out of same good/expensive BoM. Both would have reached same production cost but then one is to be remarkable better than the other.
Great discussion I agree on ALL counts! with that said it mates no sense to buy cables that out perform your electronics unless, you’re on an upgrade path within a 1 to 3 year period of time we are going to buy the better cables, the more expensive cables because you’re gonna grow into those cables with better electronics!
Products with those prices attached to them should come with an expert in room acoustics treatment.
I've seen too many people paying insane money for insanely expensive gear without having a decent room to put it in; it becomes a bad joke.
Make your room sound great for up to a thousand dollars before spending tens of thousands of dollars on gear, it'll be worth it!
You can probably make your system sound a lot better by spending a few hundred bucks (tops) in acoustic treatment instead of spending a million on some esoteric audio gear.
IMHO put your money into buying the very best amplifier you can afford. Then go from there building the rest of the system.
Example. Many years ago I bought an M&K 3 piece system. 2 bookshelf speakers and a powered sub woofer. Sounded very good in the store. Brought it home and I was very,very,very disappointed in the sound. Saved some money for a few months. Then I bought Accom amp. and preamp. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!! . That is why I say buy an amp first.
High end audio, over rated art, most haute cuisine...."I don't buy it".
Move around it. Spend your money smarter. And still enjoy quality.
In audio, for a fraction of the cost, you can connect perfectly well
with an artfull musical expression. Also as an audiophile experience.
Let's be honest here: the prices go up by 300%-500% from the manufacturer up to the retail store. A cable costing $1000 in a retail shop is bought for less than $200 from the manufacturer. An amplifier costing $3000 at the retailer's shop costs less than $1000 for the manufacturer (including the materials and its margin). The real prices are low, very low ... the outcome is just outrageous!
The value is much about the budget. If you have a limited budget, then you shouldn't use more than about 10.000. Dollars for a system. The higher you get, you get diminishing returns. And most people would be satisfied with a system for less than 2000 dollars.
Paul, those machines on your right side in this video look really cool. What are they?
Some people buying high-end products is to justify his financial ability, but not to justify his listening ability.
1980 = Music that matters
2020 = Equipments that’s matters.
1980 = any thing is ok as long as it plays music and sounds sweet.
2020 = any thing is fine as long as it’s famous and expensive.
There is high-performance audio gear and high performance "luxury market" gear. The luxury products are rack jewelry that are often beautiful to look at, but their performance is rarely significantly better than other value-oriented high performance gear offered at a fraction of the cost. Luxury-oriented gear is just as much about the customer's purchasing and ownership "experience" as it is about actual performance. Often the enclosures are exquisitely finished works of art which substantially increases the manufacturing cost and naturally, the price of the product. Some products however also employ hyper expensive exotic materials. For example, Magico loudspeakers use difficult to produce and stratospherically priced graphene, a nano-composite material in many of their drivers along with other rare and expensive metals like beryllium. And don't forget their trademark non-resonant, elaborately constructed enclosures that take skilled workers days to build. Concerning electronics, this concept is no better illustrated than by companies like Odyssey Audio that use the same circuit boards as the high end and high priced Symphonic Line, but achieve huge cost savings by using commonly available parts and well-made but spartan enclosures. And yet their Khartago and Stratos power amps still manage to have stunning performance for less than one-tenth the cost of the superb Symphonic Line gear. Unlike most manufacturers, Odyssey offers its amp customers multiple parts and power supply upgrades for those wanting even better performance. Constellation Audio also does something similar for their electronics line, where the base and higher priced models use the same circuit design but differ in their use of, higher specification and much higher priced, limited producion precision parts for each pricing tier as you go higher in their product lines.
Buy used high end gear
Replace the capacitors and that's 99% of the game to landing some perfect audio gear on the cheap.
The guy I bought my amp from told me the same thing - don’t buy new because it depreciates rapidly, similar to a car in that way. I bought a very nice amp for over a $1000 less than he paid for it just two years ago (he gave me his receipt).
What would
be considered
Good High End?
Thinking of a McIntosh line 🤔
I Am Maximus ask that question to a hundred people and in theory, you could get a hundred different manufacturers.
2 words for audiophiles that want great floorstanding speakers on a budget: buy used.
Yes, sir you make more than a couple of good points; the law of diminishing returns. There is also Zeno's Paradox, but I could be mistaken, and that story may not be very relevant here. Anyhow, I agree with 8 out of 10, or something to that amount of what you said, and explained very well; but not DAC. And just like MP3, MQS is not going to be much better. Bring back music CDs! Fortunately there are records. Enough said.
Setups are one time expenses. Why are they so outrageous a year or two later?
It's like saying can you "justify" the cost of a huge house, or a new Ferrari.
If you can afford it, and you want it, there's no reason to justify it.
paul, let me give you my 2 centsin here: the equipments ate like somebody starting a given sport... n the beginning with pratice they will improve a lot, but as time goes by, they will have to train more and more to improve like 3% or 5% a time. so its for the audios, you get to put even more effort (money) to achieve a small improvement. and after the max perfirmance is achieved, the products become more like a jewerly product than anything else.. its like conparison a top of the line Casio Watch with atomic adjustments and everything and it works better than a Rolex, but its not a Rolex. Thats the importance of branding. and i dont blame who wants a Rolex. it is their desire and their “needs”
If you build a 50mil mansion, and your listening room is an important part of your mansion, $650K is a minor but important investment. Imagine what they spend on the kitchen, silverware, and swimming pool.
I thought that the idea of HiFi was to come as close to the live event as possible. If you are spending millions on HiFi then cheaper to attend the live event.
Right. Cause of course, when you want to listen to, say, the Beatles, you just call John Lennon to set up a quick live event. Possibly here on earth.
In the headphone world it’s so much cheaper & you still get heaven, most expensive headphones cables I’ve seen we’re like 300 and were beautifully made, a high end headphone amp starts around 1k$ along with DACs & headphones
MSB Select DAC and headphone amplifier combo $130,000.00
@@kalijasin ooof that was years ago, it’s not even that expensive to get good sound tho, i have a couple of headphones & amps & one main dac & they all my babiesss
I spent $20,000 in the late 50's for a hifi system to have achieved the kind of sound that could be achieved today with $100 dollars!!
how old r u?
@@wolfyklip I'm 88 years old ! I went through gramophone , monophonic,
stereophonic, tube, solid state; from shellac records, to long-play, to LD, VCD, CD, DVD....and have no idea what the future will be !!
What kind of audio file system could you put together for $100 Philip?
@@xyjames Edifier R-1280DB less than US$100 in my country.
@@xyjames I was referring to a Hi-fi system not audiophile gears.
Usually not. Past a certain price point, just hype and smoke and mirrors. Unless we're talking about Magneplaner or Quad electrostats.
when viewed through the lens of industrial legos....no. it's not.custom builds and the time it takes to create them justifies a spike in price but as always...the law of diminishing returns rules supreme..
I think when someone is judging whether a product is "overpriced" all you really need to do is look at the company's profit margin. If a product is expensive but the cost to make said product is high then I dont see a problem. What I have a problem with is companys who set there retail price at extremely high levels ,example 400% or more! Hell even 100% markup is just ridiculous! At the end of the day if someone will pay then company's will continue to sell! Just because people will buy certain products that are overpriced doesnt make it ethical!! High end audio is full of overpriced products promising all kind of things! Sadly the difference between let's say a 300 dollar DVD blueray player and a 1800 dollar one is negligible at best and certainly not that much better to justify a 600% difference in price! The same goes for amps,speakers etc! PS audio is just as guilty ! Just take a look at there prices! I'm a huge music lover and I have been known to spend ridiculous amounts of money on things I love but when I went to look at ps audios prices I was extremely shocked ! I just can't justify paying the prices they ask considering what you get !
What about the diamond cables?
My mostly McIntosh setup cost more than the average car I'm embarrassed to say. The best audio is the one with no frequency bottlenecks. Hypothetically I can get 95% of what a elite system that cost more than an Bugatti can. Some very rich folks are paying 20x more than I did for that last 5%.
As long as a stereo is worth it's weight in gold. I still like the 5million dollar speaker idea.
People can't tell the difference between consumer and boutique products. A 50usd cable is consumer a 10.000usd cable is boutique. A cheap watch will tell you the time exactly like a Rolex but you never say to a guy with a Rolex that it is not a value for money product and that the gold used can't justify the huge price. As with all boutique products the question is a) Do you have the money and b) Do you want to spend the money?
Another issue people overlook is the "know how" To design a cable for example is simple, to design a cable using your own original ideas about how to make it better than the competition is hard. Part of the price you pay is for the expertise. I agree that there is a lot of marketing BS and snake oil in audio market with companies trying to present ordinary products as unique in order to justify the prices. This however is another issue.
Calaf_72 Hilarious! Cables are the #1 snake oil product in audio. Everyone… except you, apparently, knows this to be true. How about instead of what you feel, you actually ask an engineer who is NOT in the business of selling cables? Christians say God created the world in seven days. All geologists disagree. That doesn't keep them from preaching it, though.
Audiophile - A religion for people with more money than sense. A place where, "science be damned" because *I* hear the difference!
Richard Larson it is amazing how you manage to involve geologists and religion here lol talk about hilarious....
If you can't hear a difference don't go bully people that do. Audio is a noble but demanding hobby and not for everyone. I hear collecting butterflies is super exciting give it a try.
Sony makes the best gear
If you would be buying speaker cables for 35k would you buy those at MSRP? Would you buy a car at MSRP? Probably not. I would not buy those cables - still too expensive for me. The top line would be $35 per meter for me.
I wish I could describe how grateful I am for the whole ask Paul series. It is a true treasure trove of enrichment for the world! Keep going on my Friend!
Thank you. That means a lot to me.
I think people pay insane money for some things, yes, and that is insane to do, at least in my own value structure. I live in an apartment and own one car, and my other car is not a pair of Wilsons or conspicuous-consumption speakers; my only commercial speakers are a pair of Thiel CS1.7 which sold for under a couple grand and I got them for less. I think conspicuous consumption has become a part of it -- and it didn't used to be that way -- but when you look at who is buying, I think the prices are a function of who is buying. And not necessarily in this country, but in other countries, where they have "f-- you" money just bubbling out of the ground, and oil sheikhs wanting to impress their neighbors in Dubai. Or financial barons in London. Hollywood celebrities, college professors, and record executives in this country. Oligarchs in Russia. Mobsters in Washington D.C. (am I wrong?) Speaker manufacturers I know (and I know a few) aren't in the business to fleece their customers any more than any luxury product manufacturer, but they are universally passionate about pushing the envelope and demonstrating just how far the available technology and design are capable of carrying the product, and by the time they are done, the product is ambitious and expensive just by nature. The buyers of expensive speakers are not audio engineers, so they are normally not willing to build a "kit" speaker, and they know they are not buying chopped liver -- they expect an exceptionally crafted product made from exceptional materials, with exceptional styling, design, and refinement, and they expect it to be delivered, set up, tuned, and serviced/repaired. All those things cost a loudspeaker company money. On top of that, the speaker and its component parts have to be engineered, sourced, assembled, measured, marketed, distributed, represented, floored, sold, delivered, set up, tuned to the room, and serviced under warranty, and where the audio dealer performs those services they expect to get a bigger cut of the margin. Then there's legal, accounting, regulatory compliance, and real estate expenses, capital equipment expenses, and so on. The value of the speaker is NOT equal to the sum total cost of the components in the BOM, and if you don't get that, well that's why we can't have nice things around here. Lastly, while some people do buy brands based upon reputation, that reputation is developed over time and carefully managed to be one of expertise, care, and craftsmanship, and none of those things come cheap. When you walk around the audio shows, nobody is really getting filthy rich doing this - they are just passionate, involved people and they dress well, but they aren't becoming celebrities or driving around in Lambos, even though many sell to the Lamborghini set.
Question : Is a one million dollar system 100 times better than mine...? NOPE...Nuff said...
@Sheniquahhh Smith and you're 100 times bigger fuck wit than the rest for replying with such an embarrassing comment...
Price is irrelevant if you can afford it. Most of us here watching your videos would not blink buying a full meal at McDonalds and may not pay any attention to the price of each item. But someone in a lessor financial position may be price sensitive and would have to consider the price of each item. Ultra high-end products of anything is not for the price sensitive buyer. Unfortunately, I am not in that financial position.
All copper for electrical use is 99.98 O2 free sure cables mater but lots of pseudoscience and marketing competing for your audio $. For me costly DACs are not a good value since computers they are obsoleted quickly and advancements are frequent still its nice that some offer upgrades like PS audio. I once had a nice chat with a designer of one of the audio press favorite loudspeaker brands he was talking about how much aluminum costs as justification for massive retail costs I pointed out the best billet aluminum is $2300 a metric ton. Sure you need a CNC but come on much of audio pricing is just a race audiophiles feel cost correlates to performance manufacturers top models must increase in cost since its what the market demands still I see a end to the madness.
Oswald Mills is def a perfect example of Snake Oil for the rich! Wilson Audio on the other hand is a different story.
35,000 dollar cables they'd better be some pure silver uber shielded and actually offer better sound quality "special cables" have been proven to be snake oil already lol
Nordost Odin, Transparent Magnum Opus....
@@mikka1986 I just use shielded air craft wire
I can somewhat see speakers being really expensive, but for an amplifier, 100 grand seems absurd...
1:39 "Serious ADD" 🤣🤣🤣
I love seeing audio equipment that is worth more than my house.
As someone with tinnitus anything above CD quality is worthless.
Some people are addicted to drugs - others to HiFi - the reasons are the same - it's all about the shiver down your spine you get ....
except folks addicted to Hifi are less likely to mug you in a park...
First of all money's are for spending. And depending of how money you have to spend and what are your interests you could and should go and spend those money! Everything comes with price. And of course. You couldn't and you shouldn't expect the costs of the materials to build something to match the price of the final product. And once again, audiophiles don't care of the price, for them only sound quality matters. And yeah only wealthy people can afford extremely expensive high end Audio equipment. But who cares?!! Since there are so small differences between high end Audio System with middle cost audio system, we, "the ordinary people", could easily go with the normal price.
Very nice explanation and good opinion... in my opinion :D
I think you left out an important aspect that has to be considered. You don't see your average $50-100-200,000 a year worker spending $65,000 on a single pair of interconnects. It's just not reasonable. When you buy a 300,000 pair of loudspeakers you usualy add on more than another $300,000 for equipment I rarely see a system for under 1million dollars with a pair of 3-500,000 dollar pair of speakers. These speakers arnt designed for normal people they are designed for this most outragous of enthusiasts. So when you say "can these products be fiscaly justified" yes they can. Because the consumer can justify the expense at these levels, if you like cars a lot. And you have money you don't buy a "new" camaro cause it handel's well you might not even concider buying a new corvette. You buy a farrari and people will still ask you "what you couldn't afford a lambo" when your passionate about something there is no "too much money" when you have money. Most people don't save their money for a year to buy a new pair of loudspeakers for a half million dollars these people already have that money and there willing to spend it for what they want. It's kinda like a normal person buying a $200 pair of speakers or spending a little extra and splurging for a $500 pair of speakers because they fit there taste better but these people arnt making a decision as to whether to buy a $10,000 system or a 1,000,000 dollar system. Because if your happy with the $10,000 system you probably won't apriciate the $1,000,000 system 100 times more. People arnt asking themselves do I really a $80,000 pair of speakers cables they want them and right there is the value to them. It's something that dosent effect there pocketbook eitherway and they want it. Like when you say I could make my coffee to go but I really like those mocacinos at Starbucks so Im going to stop on my way to work. It's an obsession to have the absaloute best and price isn't an option at this point. But I enjoyed the video I just wanted to put my 2 cents in that I didn't hear you mention, but mabey your legos distracted me and I missed it!