What has Mr. Gee done to further the field of Egyptian Egyptology other than defend the Book of Abrham? How is he participating in the entire arena Egyptology and utilizing his education to further this arena of scholarship?
It is so difficult to understand modern LDS practitioners such as Chad Daybell, David Warwick, Jason Mow being accepted into priesthood and The Temple with impunity.
Many of these individuals weren't completely off the rails at the beginning. Their demise is often slow. However, individuals who aren't worthy should not be attending the Temple. Ultimately its up to God in the end.
The Book of Abraham helps me feel so close to his experiences , and the faithfulness he showed. Also then, how Good blessed him so much. I had to leave my abusive family many yrs ago. My chronic depression, and anxiety disorder was increased so much I couldn't work. When I read this book by Abraham i knew I was too follow his example and I felt better any doing that because I had less guilty in sound so. I'm looking forward to examining this site!
The Book of Abraham has touched my heart and inspired my testimony. It is not the words of the papyrus or a translation. I have hope that it is a revelatory scripture and faith that if I live by the teachings therein I can become more like God. It is when we testify it is a translation from some papyrus to english that members seem to be disingenuous and turn away investigators and members who know better.
the term translation need not be considered literal. The "translation" of the Book of Mormon was not as literal as some may think.....where one takes the characters from the plates and interprets them into English. Often, Joseph didn't even look at the plates. So when we say "translation", it is more likely a revelatory process than an academic process.
@@Ether-pb5gb then why was it so important for Nephi to go get the plates that had writing on them that #1 would be translated one day and #2 had writings of things that hadn’t even been written yet by the biblical prophets?
@@Sayheybrother8 They were translated. Just not in the way that academics think of the word translation. There were a few different methods to the translation process. But sometimes, it included Joseph seeing words appear on a rock/stone. This is not what academics tend to think of as translation.
@@Sayheybrother8 I am sorry that these questions haven't been welcomed in your Sunday/School meetings. They have always been welcomed in mine. I do know that sometimes, especially when time is short, and if the teacher still has a lot of material to get through, the teacher has asked if they can address the topic more fully after class. These are good questions.
My wife and I joined the church nearly 40 years ago. We already had children. It was the Book of Abraham, actually the entire Pearl of Great Price, that spoke to my spirit sooner and more profoundly than the Book of Mormon did at first. I like to say that the book of Abraham "captured" my spirit and my attention. And it's still holds both of them to this day.
i had a similar experience but I don't testify to its truthfulness the way I did when I thought Joseph translated the papyrus from Egyptian to English.
I am not an expert on the Book of Abraham translation, nor am I an expert on all the different discussions, both pro and against the Book of Abraham. But what I do know is, having read the BofA many times I find nothing in it which I consider evil or corrupt. Just as with the Book of Mormon, there is a lot about the Book of Abraham we can not detail by using only scientific means. This does not, however, mean that Latter-day Saints who believe in the BofA and BofM are anti-science or that we are somehow using, as some say, mental gymnastics, to believe in these books. It simply means our confirmation of the truths of these books comes in large part from the Holy Spirit as recorded in Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon. I do not fault critics of the Church who are honest in their critiques of the BofA or BofM. I do not fault Egyptologists who have likewise found Joseph Smith’s translation of the BofA to be problematic. The reason being is that often, these people are use to finding evidence by what they can see, touch and read. It is like solving a puzzle for them and in most cases, there is nothing at all wrong with that. That is how physical science should be conducted. But when you don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle, using only scientific tools or scientific means to solve a problem can not fully answer all the questions. That is when the Holy Ghost can answer the questions which science can not. Jesus taught this to his disciples in John 14:26. Just because I don’t have an exact blueprint of how the earth was created, from the mountains to the oceans doesn’t mean I should abandon my belief in God. Just because I don’t know exactly how stars and planets came into being doesn’t mean I should throw away my belief in a supreme creator and instead assume everything simply came about by the laws of chance. Perhaps there are those who believe in their heart of hearts that spirituality doesn’t exist. As for me, I just believe differently, especially in a time like today, with social media, 24/7 news and an Internet flooded with opinions coming from every direction. There are so many voices saying, “I’m right and they’re wrong,” or “I have the truth and no one else does,” or “Don’t believe those people over there, believe me.” It is becoming more and more important to receive council and guidance from the one and only source of all truth, and that is the Holy Ghost; that still small voice which whispers truth to both our minds and our hearts.
...what is clearly established is that JS did not have the ability to read or translate the “POGP” and that his purported translation was bogus. JS’ account of Abraham was therefore simply “a story” and not in any sense scriptural.
@@TheJonnyzeus I guess the thing that I find interesting about Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham, as well as all of the Pearl of Great Price is, if Joseph Smith knowingly created a bogus translation, why did he not make it about himself? I often hear critics of the Church talk about how Joseph Smith concocted all these stories about being visited by God, Jesus and all these angels as a means of pumping up his own fame and glory among his followers. If this were true, and Smith knew he was fabricating everything from the Book of Mormon, to organizing the Church, to receiving revelations from God, from convincing people such as Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and Brigham Young and many, many others that the work he was doing was sincere, it wouldn't be that big of a stretch for Smith to take the papyri and say, "Oh, all these things on the papyri are about me, that's why I have them." But Smith did not do this. If he was such an egomaniac, why didn't he? Also, back in the 1960s when the Church come into possession of parts of the papyri that have survived, why did the Church not destroy them so that no one could see them and attempt to refute them? Those are just a couple of the questions I have. I also want to say, I appreciate your polite feedback and analysis of this issue. Thank you.
@@mikechristensen1604 The Holy Ghost works in many different ways besides mere good feelings after reading a book or watching a musical. This is something Church critics rarely, if ever, discuss. While those who trash the Church, its leaders, and its members continue to harp on the "warm fuzzies" aspect of the Holy Ghost, there are many other aspects of communications which come from the Holy Ghost. Examples of this can be found in a devotional address by Dallin H. Oaks given in 1981. speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/revelation/
I find it sad that some of our own faith fall for deception and are led away into unbelief. I received all the standard works with joy when I was a teenager. i have always loved the Pearl of Great Price. It has been uplifting and edifying, so much so, that any detractors to it's truthfulness never had any sway on me. I'm not special nor unique, and a very imperfect person. I just marvel at how my experience can be so different from others.
The Pearl of Great Price and especially the Book of Abraham has been very personal to me. Without it I definitely would not have the personal knowledge and witness. My emphasis with my youth is of it's worth. Thank you for this interview
John Dehlin is the proverbial you-can-leave-the-church-but-you-can-never-leave-it-alone excommunicated Mormon. He seems like a nice guy, a lamb on the surface. But when you get into it, he is a wolf looking to sow seeds of discontent and devour the faith of any who would be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Ry Greer - He. Can’t. Leave. It. Alone. Apparently neither can you. You don’t like Mormons? Fine. Go do you’re own thing. They’re not throwing rocks at you, stop throwing rocks at them. Have a nice day.
Thank you for this interview! I will turn to the PoGP Central while studying that scripture. Wil there also be a Doctrine & Covenants Central, and the Come Follow Me accompanying video's? I love those, and I'd love some guidence/help in 2021 as well.
The Bible tells all. If every Church wrote other books that served to create new doctrines, the Bible would very likely lose its authenticity altogether. Christ died, was resurrected and is coming again. That's what we need to know.
"10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. 11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye-for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness." - 2 Nephi 33:10-11 The Book of Mormon
Why is John Gee talking soooo slow? Is it hard for him to find the words? Sure he's being very careful with what he says... But why not being honest about this? The church has contradicted Smith with its essay on the matter... Those who doubt have or are thinking about leaving the church...
Why are you assuming that he's not being honest? I personally don't speak as well as I write; so when I'm orally explaining concept (of any kind, be it religious or not), I almost always end up getting the information out slower and choppier than John Gee does here. Not all of us are gifted with quick, on-the-fly eloquence; this is not a logical indication of dishonesty.
@@latter-daytemplar7156 I am not assuming anything. It's up to you to see how many of the scientific community, other scholars, egyptologists mainly, agree with Gee. It's easy to realize that most mormon scholars find themselves alone when it comes to defending things like this.
@@latter-daytemplar7156 He is dishonest or dumb, as an Egyptologist. Do you get what I mean? When someone is that knowledgeable in certain area of expertise and noone at the same level agrees with him, those are the only options. What's your profession for instance? I am a mechanical engineer, and my area of expertise is energy transport through hot water (boilers). If when I did thermodynamic calculations every other engineer would laugh at me, I would suck as an engineer because I am too dumb or dishonest... If your brain can't get what I just explained, it's not my fault...
@@alexdeleon8099 Egyptology is a subfield of anthropology, the stances and findings of which are constantly shifting due to new things being found/learned every day. As for Gee in particular, he is apparently smart and honest enough in his field to have gotten a Ph. D. therein from Yale University, to have served as editor and trustee of the Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities, and to have participated in the International Association for Coptic Studies, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the American Research Center in Egypt. He has even given a presentation at the Coptic Church Centre in London on early Egyptian conversion to Christianity. Clearly, he isn't (and, by extension, his views aren't) as rejected as what you are exaggerating them to be. If you choose to ignore this all just to maintain your bias bubble, that is wholly your prerogative.
"Hold on to your testimony with everything you've got." Best scholastic advice I ever received from one of the most incredible professors and influential men in my life. Thank you, Dr. Gee. (Pleasure to see you again.) And thank you for sharing your knowledge of the Pearl of Great Price with us; it is eye opening and uplifting.
az machinist great questions. The Bof Moses was part of the Biblical Genesis (JST). Jewish traditions seem to imply that Genesis/Moses was based on a lost BofA. However, true or not, if you think about it, while Matthew and John, etc give varied accounts of Jesus, the Books of Moses, Abraham, 1 Nephi, etc include what appear to be endowment texts. They apply individually but are shared with us for our benefit. Each has unique teachings.
The Book of Abraham is the word of God. It was sent to us by Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. You can know this for yourself, without a shadow of a doubt, through prayer, faith and sincere intent.
the book of abraham debunked now available here on YT. prayer, faith, intent and so on convinced people from being veganist and all sort of gruelty, Amen.
I really enjoyed this interview. Great stuff!! But, it was hard to hear. Scholarship research or study is a way I compliment my testimony of the scriptures. It can give depth and more understanding of what the Holy Spirit is teaching us. Learning that Abraham's father was trying to sacrifice him on the alter is shocking and gruesome. But, if one understands the cultural attitudes of that time in Egypt then one can understand with greater depth what Abraham was going through. Maybe, his desire to honor his father and/or family traditions was felt by Abraham. And that Abraham fleeing was more than his fear of death. He had to abandon his extended family, cause them to be shamed. That may have hurt Abraham's heart.... After learning all this, we can internalize our personal feelings of sacrifices we've made for the gospel's sake and find more comfort. That's how I look at it.
Care to debate Dr Robert Ritner Mr gee?
Ritner is dead.
@@Ether-pb5gb not st the time this comment was asked, wouldn’t you agree?
What has Mr. Gee done to further the field of Egyptian Egyptology other than defend the Book of Abrham? How is he participating in the entire arena Egyptology and utilizing his education to further this arena of scholarship?
It is so difficult to understand modern LDS practitioners such as Chad Daybell, David Warwick, Jason Mow being accepted into priesthood and The Temple with impunity.
Many of these individuals weren't completely off the rails at the beginning. Their demise is often slow. However, individuals who aren't worthy should not be attending the Temple. Ultimately its up to God in the end.
The Book of Abraham helps me feel so close to his experiences , and the faithfulness he showed. Also then, how Good blessed him so much. I had to leave my abusive family many yrs ago. My chronic depression, and anxiety disorder was increased so much I couldn't work. When I read this book by Abraham i knew I was too follow his example and I felt better any doing that because I had less guilty in sound so. I'm looking forward to examining this site!
The Book of Abraham has touched my heart and inspired my testimony. It is not the words of the papyrus or a translation. I have hope that it is a revelatory scripture and faith that if I live by the teachings therein I can become more like God. It is when we testify it is a translation from some papyrus to english that members seem to be disingenuous and turn away investigators and members who know better.
the term translation need not be considered literal. The "translation" of the Book of Mormon was not as literal as some may think.....where one takes the characters from the plates and interprets them into English. Often, Joseph didn't even look at the plates. So when we say "translation", it is more likely a revelatory process than an academic process.
@@Ether-pb5gb then why was it so important for Nephi to go get the plates that had writing on them that #1 would be translated one day and #2 had writings of things that hadn’t even been written yet by the biblical prophets?
I really want to know and am not just trying to be difficult. These aren’t questions that are exactly welcome in Sunday school or quorum meeting
@@Sayheybrother8 They were translated. Just not in the way that academics think of the word translation. There were a few different methods to the translation process. But sometimes, it included Joseph seeing words appear on a rock/stone. This is not what academics tend to think of as translation.
@@Sayheybrother8 I am sorry that these questions haven't been welcomed in your Sunday/School meetings. They have always been welcomed in mine. I do know that sometimes, especially when time is short, and if the teacher still has a lot of material to get through, the teacher has asked if they can address the topic more fully after class. These are good questions.
Disappointed that he really didn’t say anything ...
My wife and I joined the church nearly 40 years ago. We already had children. It was the Book of Abraham, actually the entire Pearl of Great Price, that spoke to my spirit sooner and more profoundly than the Book of Mormon did at first. I like to say that the book of Abraham "captured" my spirit and my attention. And it's still holds both of them to this day.
i had a similar experience but I don't testify to its truthfulness the way I did when I thought Joseph translated the papyrus from Egyptian to English.
I wonder what Brian Hauglid thinks of Gee's research?
I am not an expert on the Book of Abraham translation, nor am I an expert on all the different discussions, both pro and against the Book of Abraham. But what I do know is, having read the BofA many times I find nothing in it which I consider evil or corrupt. Just as with the Book of Mormon, there is a lot about the Book of Abraham we can not detail by using only scientific means. This does not, however, mean that Latter-day Saints who believe in the BofA and BofM are anti-science or that we are somehow using, as some say, mental gymnastics, to believe in these books. It simply means our confirmation of the truths of these books comes in large part from the Holy Spirit as recorded in Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon.
I do not fault critics of the Church who are honest in their critiques of the BofA or BofM. I do not fault Egyptologists who have likewise found Joseph Smith’s translation of the BofA to be problematic. The reason being is that often, these people are use to finding evidence by what they can see, touch and read. It is like solving a puzzle for them and in most cases, there is nothing at all wrong with that. That is how physical science should be conducted. But when you don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle, using only scientific tools or scientific means to solve a problem can not fully answer all the questions. That is when the Holy Ghost can answer the questions which science can not. Jesus taught this to his disciples in John 14:26.
Just because I don’t have an exact blueprint of how the earth was created, from the mountains to the oceans doesn’t mean I should abandon my belief in God. Just because I don’t know exactly how stars and planets came into being doesn’t mean I should throw away my belief in a supreme creator and instead assume everything simply came about by the laws of chance.
Perhaps there are those who believe in their heart of hearts that spirituality doesn’t exist. As for me, I just believe differently, especially in a time like today, with social media, 24/7 news and an Internet flooded with opinions coming from every direction. There are so many voices saying, “I’m right and they’re wrong,” or “I have the truth and no one else does,” or “Don’t believe those people over there, believe me.” It is becoming more and more important to receive council and guidance from the one and only source of all truth, and that is the Holy Ghost; that still small voice which whispers truth to both our minds and our hearts.
Best comment!!!
...what is clearly established is that JS did not have the ability to read or translate the “POGP” and that his purported translation was bogus. JS’ account of Abraham was therefore simply “a story” and not in any sense scriptural.
@@TheJonnyzeus I guess the thing that I find interesting about Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham, as well as all of the Pearl of Great Price is, if Joseph Smith knowingly created a bogus translation, why did he not make it about himself? I often hear critics of the Church talk about how Joseph Smith concocted all these stories about being visited by God, Jesus and all these angels as a means of pumping up his own fame and glory among his followers. If this were true, and Smith knew he was fabricating everything from the Book of Mormon, to organizing the Church, to receiving revelations from God, from convincing people such as Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and Brigham Young and many, many others that the work he was doing was sincere, it wouldn't be that big of a stretch for Smith to take the papyri and say, "Oh, all these things on the papyri are about me, that's why I have them." But Smith did not do this. If he was such an egomaniac, why didn't he? Also, back in the 1960s when the Church come into possession of parts of the papyri that have survived, why did the Church not destroy them so that no one could see them and attempt to refute them? Those are just a couple of the questions I have. I also want to say, I appreciate your polite feedback and analysis of this issue. Thank you.
I feel the same way about Les Miserables. However, I don't consider it a sacred text and realize it is fiction.
@@mikechristensen1604 The Holy Ghost works in many different ways besides mere good feelings after reading a book or watching a musical. This is something Church critics rarely, if ever, discuss. While those who trash the Church, its leaders, and its members continue to harp on the "warm fuzzies" aspect of the Holy Ghost, there are many other aspects of communications which come from the Holy Ghost. Examples of this can be found in a devotional address by Dallin H. Oaks given in 1981. speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/revelation/
John Gee needs to be honest. He needs to repent from his dishonest review of the book of Abraham
What is the translation of 8-21? I want to know!!!!!!!
Thank you. Plz can u add volume to this sound please
I found it easier to listen to if I set the speed to 1.5 and turned up the volume on my computer to the max!
@@rdgale2000 how do u do that. Please .. slow it down?
I find it sad that some of our own faith fall for deception and are led away into unbelief. I received all the standard works with joy when I was a teenager. i have always loved the Pearl of Great Price. It has been uplifting and edifying, so much so, that any detractors to it's truthfulness never had any sway on me. I'm not special nor unique, and a very imperfect person. I just marvel at how my experience can be so different from others.
The Pearl of Great Price and especially the Book of Abraham has been very personal to me. Without it I definitely would not have the personal knowledge and witness. My emphasis with my youth is of it's worth. Thank you for this interview
More knowledge is power.
@@willreel2492 where I go to listen to it.
@@willreel2492 thanks, I found it. I am listening. Thank you so much
John Dehlin is the proverbial you-can-leave-the-church-but-you-can-never-leave-it-alone excommunicated Mormon. He seems like a nice guy, a lamb on the surface. But when you get into it, he is a wolf looking to sow seeds of discontent and devour the faith of any who would be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Ry Greer - He. Can’t. Leave. It. Alone. Apparently neither can you. You don’t like Mormons? Fine. Go do you’re own thing. They’re not throwing rocks at you, stop throwing rocks at them. Have a nice day.
@@johnperry1645 I know The Church is true.
I don't know whom you talking to
Thank you for this interview! I will turn to the PoGP Central while studying that scripture.
Wil there also be a Doctrine & Covenants Central, and the Come Follow Me accompanying video's? I love those, and I'd love some guidence/help in 2021 as well.
We plan on continuing with Come, Follow Me Insights with Taylor and Tyler for the Doctrine and Covenants
The Bible tells all. If every Church wrote other books that served to create new doctrines, the Bible would very likely lose its authenticity altogether. Christ died, was resurrected and is coming again. That's what we need to know.
"10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye-for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness." - 2 Nephi 33:10-11 The Book of Mormon
Why is John Gee talking soooo slow? Is it hard for him to find the words? Sure he's being very careful with what he says... But why not being honest about this? The church has contradicted Smith with its essay on the matter... Those who doubt have or are thinking about leaving the church...
Why are you assuming that he's not being honest? I personally don't speak as well as I write; so when I'm orally explaining concept (of any kind, be it religious or not), I almost always end up getting the information out slower and choppier than John Gee does here.
Not all of us are gifted with quick, on-the-fly eloquence; this is not a logical indication of dishonesty.
@@latter-daytemplar7156 I am not assuming anything. It's up to you to see how many of the scientific community, other scholars, egyptologists mainly, agree with Gee. It's easy to realize that most mormon scholars find themselves alone when it comes to defending things like this.
@@alexdeleon8099
You asked why John Gee isn't being honest about this; that's a question based on an assumption.
@@latter-daytemplar7156 He is dishonest or dumb, as an Egyptologist. Do you get what I mean? When someone is that knowledgeable in certain area of expertise and noone at the same level agrees with him, those are the only options. What's your profession for instance? I am a mechanical engineer, and my area of expertise is energy transport through hot water (boilers). If when I did thermodynamic calculations every other engineer would laugh at me, I would suck as an engineer because I am too dumb or dishonest... If your brain can't get what I just explained, it's not my fault...
@@alexdeleon8099
Egyptology is a subfield of anthropology, the stances and findings of which are constantly shifting due to new things being found/learned every day.
As for Gee in particular, he is apparently smart and honest enough in his field to have gotten a Ph. D. therein from Yale University, to have served as editor and trustee of the Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities, and to have participated in the International Association for Coptic Studies, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the American Research Center in Egypt. He has even given a presentation at the Coptic Church Centre in London on early Egyptian conversion to Christianity.
Clearly, he isn't (and, by extension, his views aren't) as rejected as what you are exaggerating them to be.
If you choose to ignore this all just to maintain your bias bubble, that is wholly your prerogative.
"Hold on to your testimony with everything you've got." Best scholastic advice I ever received from one of the most incredible professors and influential men in my life. Thank you, Dr. Gee. (Pleasure to see you again.) And thank you for sharing your knowledge of the Pearl of Great Price with us; it is eye opening and uplifting.
This was so interesting It gives me motivation to read The Book of Abraham
Love your work John, you have helped so many of us, thanks. : ) The evidence indicates that the BofA is ancient.
az machinist great questions. The Bof Moses was part of the Biblical Genesis (JST). Jewish traditions seem to imply that Genesis/Moses was based on a lost BofA. However, true or not, if you think about it, while Matthew and John, etc give varied accounts of Jesus, the Books of Moses, Abraham, 1 Nephi, etc include what appear to be endowment texts. They apply individually but are shared with us for our benefit. Each has unique teachings.
what is his tie?
Seriously?
Colton, if you mean what is on his tie,it looks like ancient script to me.
I noticed that too, it's probably 'Reformed Egyptian'
thelucincutoff lmaooo
The Book of Abraham is the word of God. It was sent to us by Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. You can know this for yourself, without a shadow of a doubt, through prayer, faith and sincere intent.
the book of abraham debunked now available here on YT. prayer, faith, intent and so on convinced people from being veganist and all sort of gruelty, Amen.
I really enjoyed this interview. Great stuff!! But, it was hard to hear.
Scholarship research or study is a way I compliment my testimony of the scriptures. It can give depth and more understanding of what the Holy Spirit is teaching us. Learning that Abraham's father was trying to sacrifice him on the alter is shocking and gruesome. But, if one understands the cultural attitudes of that time in Egypt then one can understand with greater depth what Abraham was going through. Maybe, his desire to honor his father and/or family traditions was felt by Abraham. And that Abraham fleeing was more than his fear of death. He had to abandon his extended family, cause them to be shamed. That may have hurt Abraham's heart.... After learning all this, we can internalize our personal feelings of sacrifices we've made for the gospel's sake and find more comfort. That's how I look at it.