East vs. West German Panzer Units | Hyperwar 1989
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2024
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Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
0:30 - Tank Platoon
3:41 - Tank Company
5:53 - Tank Battalion/Brigade/Regiment
8:21 - Tank Division Strengths
East German Sources:
• STAN 3505/3 "Mot.-Schuetzenregiment 9" dated 1986/88
• www.msr-7.de/struktur.htm
• panzerregiment4.de/?p=27
• pzaufkl.de/die-aufklaerungstr...
• Wilfried Kopenhagen "Die Landstreitkräfte der NVA"
West German Sources:
• Blume & Suhanny "Panzergrenadierbrigade 13 Wetzlar 1959 bis 1993"
• www.pzbtl144-344.com/chronik/...
• www.pzbtl194.de/panzerbataill...
Just inject the Cold War content directly in my veeeeeins!!
👀
holy crap it's templininstitute
@@4T3hM4kr0n hit youtuber templin institute
WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE???????
@@BattleOrder 😂
Ok so expect a rework for armored units for the 2 Germany in Warno
Why aren’t all these units in there?
@@voidwalker9223 availabilty and veterancy can akways change
@@nicolocerri6453 WARNO is too arcadey and fast passed game with pretty graphics for realistic and proper unit structure to matter. (Maybe the Campaign can change that when its out)
Combat Mission Cold war is better if you want real platoon, company and battalion type of battles.
@@finalthemickith476cmcw... A game set primarily in west Germany
Doesn't have any west or east German units..
@@timothytimothy4854 They are being worked on can check the forums. Ill still take realism with missing units over a clicking spam game like WARNO
The 4 Tank per platoon in Soviet Doctrine is because of the organization of the motor rifle elements. In their task force composition, the one tank battalion with it's three companies gets split up to the three motor rifle battalions. The motor file battalion consist of 3 companies each, so each company gets one tank platoon. However, each motor rifle company has three motor rifle platoons and one heavy weapons platoon. These makes four platoons, and this is the reason for the four tanks. The tanks of the motor rifle regiments do not fight like tanks in tank regiments but together and ahead of the motor rifle elements.
What did the East German heavy weapons platoon have as equipment? Mortars? Heavy machine guns? ATGMs?
@@MrCosinuus it depends if it's a BMP or a BTR battalion, but yes, it's heavy machine guns like the PKM on tripod, heavy automatic grenade launcher AGS-17, then an anti tank section with ATGMs like AT-3, AT-4 or AT-7 combined with recoilless guns like the SPG-9, this heavy platoon was either used in flank protection, or as a support element in the attack, to suppress NATO anti-tank elements.
@@MrFusseligwhy did the hwp need it's own tank of it already had tons of firepower like mortars and atgms?
@@tedarcher9120 it's part of the OOB on the march, every motor rifle platoon has a tank on the march. The firepower of the motor rifle platoon is very difficult to be used in motion, as ATGMs and heavy machine guns need to be deployed first.
The tank can be set into different roles, depending on the task, e.g. if it will be used as a combat recon patrol, a forward security element, or the main body of the attack, and therefore gives a lot of flexibility.
It's part of soviet doctrine, to keep the organization simple, as you mainly deal with conscripts, while allowing for flexibility through predefined battle drills.
The GDR formations were very close in their structure compared to the Soviet OOB.
@@tedarcher9120Same reason any infantry platoon needs a tank. Heavy armour adds momentum - sure a combat engineer or an infantryman with a rocket launcher can take out a machine gun nest, but a tank can do it much faster and is in much less danger when doing so. On the attack, where speed is key, that can be essential.
Also, having your own tank is almost always preferable to relying on infantry with AT weapons when encountering enemy armour
I was an armor from 83 to 06. Two wars, but I really enjoyed the mid 80s training with the West German Panzer and Panzergrenadiers. I still have a 5th Panzer sign I was gifted in 85.
which wars?
@@admirbosnic4859 guess Iraq twice, no other US wars with armored divisions
What made you go armor?
Served in the 90/91 Bundeswehr, fifth armored division, Panzergrenadierbrigade 13 - full of memories thanks to the video
Hello. From 1983 to 1988, I served in a DDR armor unit (21st Armor Regiment of the 9th Armor Division). My duty first was as a driver for a T-72 type tank, and then I was changed to being a gunner. During the 80s, we were very concerned that NATO would launch an invasion and we were told to be ready to mobilize at a moments notice. I was very proud to serve since back then I was a strong supporter of the workers revolution against capitalism (I still am and believe Germany will become communist again). During a training operation between several parts of the division, the unit commander had us all gather and he mentioned the enemy American and occupied territory (what we called the invalid capitalist Germany) tanks, the Abrams and Leopard. We were confident we could win in a fight, but one thing he said that sticks to me is "be careful when he sights your sides or back up, or because of your ammo carousel you might be the first German on the moon!" It was morbid but we couldn't help but laugh. Great video talking about our unit make up.
Sorry for the bad spelling or grammar, I am not so good with English and had to use internet translation for some.
RUclips's cleared my message. Can I ask you to give me your contact? I wanted to ask you about your service.
nationalism without capitalism and socialism without internationalism
AH
also werner did design the rocket to the moon and germany was the first to shoot something up to space in 1944
@@axdde6428 Nie wieder.
Vielen Dank für Ihren Dienst, Kamerad
Hey, great video I loved it. Because I am from Dresden myself - so East German - I really like these sort of comparative videos between East and West. Which brings me to my request. Can you make a video comparing the Artillery units or both beligerents? Probably best to focus on the artillery attached to the mechanized units.
I have interesting tought about DDR and BRD. Once Russians went out, DDR remained as independent country, while west Germany was still under occupational forces of US/UK, so not fully intdependent country. I think, its first time in modern history, that DDR-independent merged into BRD-occupied.
@@uroskostic8570 The thing is, neither DDR or BRD were ever leg completely by occupational forces. The soviet union, just like the US today at Rammstein, had bases in the DDR where they had soviet troops stationed all year round. In that regard i think BRD and GDR are comparable. Just that from what i’ve heard interacting with the US troops as a westerner was no big deal. On the other hand, as a GDR citizen you wanted as little contact to the soviet soldiers as possible.
@@uroskostic8570 The russians had forces in germany until 1994.
The German T-55 AM was at least just as capable as the T-55 AM "Merida". It means a much younger T-72M/M1 lacked in FCS, range measure, and optics. T-55 AM could use his analogue ballistic calculator to calculate whether corrections, terrain slope, etc. The improved stabilizer, but still not better than the set from the T-72, allowed shooting quite accurately right after stopping the tank at about 1500 m.
We when your “allies” dont trust you. You tend to get the bottom of the barrel
Awesome video! I love the Cold War German stuff!
Der HEER and sh!t, man.
You putting out this video is very timely for me. I'm a miniatures modern warfare gamer (1/600 scale, if anyone is interested) and working with some guys to repopularize the old Avalon Hill bookshelf games Panzerblitz and its updated Cold War counterpart Panzerblitz 80. Instead of counters, digitally printed vinyl maps and realistic tiny tanks are used. I am always trying to learn a little more about NATO and Warsaw Pact unit organizations. I'll be sharing this with a colleague of mine. Good stuff.
Got some Oddzial Osmy 1/600 Strykers today, just to see what they're like. So tiny but so detailed!
Another fantastic video, i thought christmas was over but nope, one more gift was to be given it seems
It seems the German Mixed Battalions must've been what influenced the Norwegian Armour Battalions, which had two tank squadrons (= companies) and two assault (= mechanized infantry) squadrons, plus a support squadron with armoured mortars, M113s with TOW-launchers, and armoured scouts,
Ok 😂😂
im thinking its probably the other way around
The 2x2 matrix is very handy for this kind of video. No other way you would have explained the NCO structure so clearly and efficiently! Nice!
Interesting comparison and very well illustrated Video. Thank you 👍
I was 1989-90 driver of the Leo2 A4 of the company comander 4./33 Panzerbattalion....
1. there was no such thing as reserve crew
2. the standart company comander Jeep of the time was the VW Iltis(Wolf was slowly getting into the Bw but as usual they were first delivered to higher ranking officers till lower level company commander got their hands on them)
3. no motorbikes in the company only Unimog and 5to
platoons
3x4 Leo2 A4 platoons, 1platoon lead by a Oberleutnant a Fahnenjunker and 2 Unteroffizier, 2platoon lead by a Hauptfeldwebel and a Feldwebel and 2 Unteroffizier, 3Platoon like 2
.
company comander
1x Leo2 A4 company comander (Hauptmann), gunner Oberfeldwebel (one of the 2Feldwebel of the Company NCO) driver Hauptgefreiter, loader switched
1X VW Iltis (driver was one of the three soldiers of the Spieß)
internal organisation
company NCO "mother of the company" in my unit Stabsfeldwebel or Oberstabsfeldwebel (my first one was Oberstabsfeldwebel short befor retirement, my second one was Hauptfeldwebel as he join the company but was instantly promoted to Stabsfeldwebel) 2 Feldwebel and 3 soldiers
1x Unimog
1x 5to
driven by the soldiers under company NCO comand
Привет из России, мне интересно в каком состоянии сейчас находятся бронетанковые войска Германии? Смотрел разные материалы, в этих видео жаловались на удручающее положение армии, правда ли это?
@@user-rr1tm5hh6fThe Bundeswehr is a lot weaker than in 1989, but then, so are you. Plus, German media loves to turn even small issues into giant dramas.
You are arguing with a dude who recites any info he gets from the internet to earn ad money. I dont think he cares.
@@user-rr1tm5hh6f maybee on RT news... reality, the tank troop is growing again, the german Army just recived its new 104 ordered Leo2 A7V, the Leo2 A7A1 comes this year (with Trophy hard kill system) and August 2025 comes the Leo2 A8 were currently no photos or detailed infromation are avaible ... in August 2023 they ordered new ammunition for Leo2 in great numbers.. DM11 programable 120mm HE ammo and its training round and DM73 and its training round, the DM73 in combination with the Rheinmetall 120L55A1 gun (A7V, A7A1, A8, A7HU, A7M DK) is designed to knock out T-14 Armata at 2km range ... so the german Army has the weapon to destroy russian future tank that is still not in production or service... after the A8 comes the Leo2 X which will be the final version of the Leo2 till it get replaced by a new MBT. The Army recive new PzH2000 as a replacment for the units sent to Ukraine were they run havoc on the russians...and they ordered new RCH155 wheeled howitzer ~160units as addition to the PzH2000 ... they get integrated into the "mittlere Kräfte" units able to cover long distances on its own wheeles because they have no tracked vehicles, almost all of their vehicles are based on the Boxer 8x8 including the RCH155... which is the first and only tube arty able to fire on the move... with a two men crew... the German Army get 71billion € budget this year... which is mind blowing if you take into account that only for a Army with less than 200.000 soldiers... the new minister of defence was the rigth choose at the rigth time to speed up the reform and transition of the german Army
Currently the German Army has many projects pushed since the russian terrorist attack on Ukraine... here is no old crap used, like in the russian Army, were they pull out 60 or 70yo tanks to get toasted on the battle field with their untrained crew, in the Ukraine meat grinder which produce a endless stream of russian cargo200 ;) we will happy deliver the Ukraine more tools to increase their russian cargo 200 production... maybee the bunker grandpa under the Kremlin realize one day that he cant win..or maybee the orcs weak up one day and throw him out of a window and seek peace
@@user-rr1tm5hh6fReicht immernoch um Ivan zusammen mit der NATO zurück in den Kreml zu drängen
Can you do a video on Turkish 1974 invasion of cyprus battle order, in terms of their equipment they had a mix of every weapons from the West like Thompson SMG for NCOs and Officers, FAL and G3 for regular riflemen and Bren, GPMG or MG3 for MG gunner?
We use to see the East Germans on the border playing with a ball while using their AK rifle butts to hit the ball 😂
Boys being boys
Enjoying your videos and delivering. I like how comprehensive it is.
My special interest is warfare, I love studying warfare at the tactical, operational, and strategic level. I love seeing how technology will impact the lethality of warfare. Using an armed force for the interest of my state, my leader, or myself arouses me.
It's a good day when Battle Order posts
This a great explanation video! Btw love the use of COD3 music for the video
Another day, another banger.
In case anyone is looking to make a good "Battlefield" game again, study this video. In fact, start every meeting with it.
Love the background music. Call of duty 3 had a great soundtrack and is so memorable.
That was fascinating. I have been waiting and hoping for you to examine HEER Panzer and Panzergrenedier unit structures. Out of interest, would you consider looking into the evolution of the Bundeswehr Aufklarungbataillons?
Thanks Battle Order, great video and really appreciated. Hopefully other Team Yankee players will have found that as useful as l did. Great stuff, next…Marder v BMP Panzergrenadiers..!
Great job on that video! I'm a big fan of your cold war content, especially with regard to Germany as the most likely site for a potential WW3 (which fortunately never happened!). By the way: your pronounciation of German terms is almost flawless ;)
I just started playing the Global Mobilization dlc again on ARMA 3 what a coincidence
Fantastic video. Thanks!
Second this!
My understanding of the "square" format for tanks in infantry units was to be able to provide tank support to each infantry element while still having a reserve. If you have one tank battalion and three motorized battalions, that means each can get one tank company attached to it and one tank company in reserve. Conversely you can attached two to the first and second motorized battalion with the third motorized battalion being held in reserve. That would allow a motorized battalion to have an armored element that can provide overwatch while another maneuvers with the motorized force. Assuming three motorized units and one armored unit with 4 sub units you can emulate this all the way down.
Ah thank you very much. I will double check with my Panzer Guys later if it was so back in the days(West,2A2-2A4 Ex Tank Commanders. But still in Service). Some Reserve NCO still have good Experience to share. Germany dosnt have that much Cold War Content of that specific
This video was awsome, I can hardly find any sorts of video of the German Military structures during the cold war. Now you started to fill the gap. Argue with me but the Bundeswhr should look back at its old picture, because nowadays in the shadow if a Second Cold War this is the Germany army that Europe needs (the West German mostly but East German wasn't bad either). And most of the countries should do so. The equipment is newer and shinier but the strenght disappeared. The Polish have realized it, and maybe we Hungarians too (it's pity under eeehhh bad rule). Anyhow put the politics away I usually don't like long videos but this 10 minuteish video was the one that I most enjoyed in this month, thank you for it!
You are right about videos but check Wiki with Heeresstruktur 4 and you find a ton of data. And here: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliederung_des_Feldheeres_(Bundeswehr,_Heeresstruktur_4)
Well modern day Germany doesn't exactly have any threats on its border so it makes more sense to focus on force projection so they can sustainably deploy units in Eastern Europe and help defend the oceans.
@@hedgehog3180 Nowadays not only the borderthreats matter
@@hedgehog3180 It's not very wise being prepared only for actual threats. Changing a strategy and orbat can easily take 10+ years. What if new arising threats don't want to wait?
Oh... shit! I'm always so hyped whenever you post a new video. The subjects are so fucking interesting to me 😍
i like how you make learning fun :)
The east german had a t55am1 tank fitted with new electronics and other equipments like laser range finder
you should totally do one on soviet forces in germany and czechoslovakia (soviet forces in those countries would also be the first line, with poland the second echelon) and on V and VII corps
if i remember correct, Poland would form their own front ( 3 field and 1 tank army/corps) in one of groups of fronts. Polish coastal division will also serve as prime marine unit for Warsaw pact (that why they build so many LST😀).
polish marine units would have fallen under baltic front, deployed northward as flank cover and invaded denmark and yes, polish group of forces would have formed the second echelon front (2 soviet tank divisions, 5 polish tank divisions and 8 polish motor rifle divisions) after the three fronts in first echelon (2 in germany, 1 in czechoslovakia)@@sergeyboychuck8872
@@sergeyboychuck8872 Tip of the spear.
Solid Soviet soldiers valued common exercises in the Polish training rigour the most. Back in Russia, 50%+ of them aspired to get into the elite units. The Polish Tour was a favour to the most important, to those who paid, to legit best soldiers, or worse ;)
Polish training (pain) gave them skills and good experience in real-range firing practice. It worked like a spring to get you the best tank units, best bases, best officers, best ship crew etc
@@glubokayaoperatsiya you describe the NATO attack variant.
in cause of Soviet attack Poland will form their own front from peacetime structure (9 mech+4 tank divisions) and will fight against NATO north army group (as part of group of fronts). Also, in cause of Soviet attack a lot of armies will arrive from western part of USSR, and they will triple the size of Soviet force. If i remember correct, 9 to 11 fronts will be activated and at least 2 groups of fronts will be formed.
Czechoslovakia (in cause of Soviet attack) will also form their own front (they have the structure for front in peacetime) by activating reserve.
the Polish coastal marine division will double the size of numbered mech regiments (from 3 to 6) in war time. Reserve regiments will serve as coastal defense, while peacetime ready regiments fulfill the role of marine assault on Denmark/West Germany.
the cold war situation on Baltic was funny - West Germany plus Denmark would defend itself in any scenario. Polish navy played key-role in Warsaw pact Baltic scenario. Soviet Baltic fleet played supporting role for Polish Navy - to support Polish marine assaults with cruisers/destroyers and provide aviation assets to joint DDR/Poland attempt to eliminate NATO surface forces in Baltics.
they were t
I Love Cold War Content! And I Love This Already Keep Up The Good Work!
Edit:I Love This Vid Already
4:04 MZ Etz250 motorcycle for the Deputy of Equipment...
5:28 ...a half-ton G-Wagen "WOLF" by Steyr-Daimler-Puch and
5:30 3× Maico M 250 B motorcycles for messengers.
Again nice Video, please keep up making Videos to the German Bundeswehr
Amazing, it may not be possible, but more comparison videos would be neat.
God, I just love those East German helmets.
What happened to east germans arms after East Gemany had ceased to exist?
Sold off. Finland has some of it still in service.
Sold or scrapped.
There were a few systems that remained in the Bundeswehr to represent the enemy during exercises, but that was it.
Hi, very good video
Could you also make a video about support units, such as artillery?
Can you do a video on East German motorized infantry tactics?
There is a video on that already on the channel
I personally think the 60s and 80s are the most interesting times for cold war ground forces. Big transitions during both periods.
1:52 is written in a bit of a ambiguously. This line makes it sound like either:
1) You are speculating that East Germany operated 4 tanks per platoon in the motor rifles.
2) You are speculating WHY they operate 4 instead of 3 tanks per platoon in the motor rifles.
I thought you meant the first when I first heard it. But you specified the difference with such confidence in the section before I thought i was misinterpreting it. I had to replay this section 2 times before I understood you meant the latter (I think...). I felt like i just wanted to point this out so you can address in case others got confused like me.
I am speculating why they operated 4-tank platoons in the Motor Rifles, as opposed to if they did because we know they did
About West Germany You missed the Tank units assigned to territorial defense brigades, Heimatschutz Brigaden 51-56, 61-66 as well as other smaller territorial units. Several had MBTs, mostly M48 versions, in their tank destroyer, Panzerjäger companies. Als Mountain Brigade. Gebirgsjäger Brigade 23 had a "tank destroyer company" with Leo 1.
Some West German Tank Battalions had 4 companies like Gebrigspanzerbattalion 8 and the Panzer Battalions of the PzGren Brigades of the 6 Panzer Grenadier Division assigned to LandJut.
I also didn't touch on the state of East German reserves. This one was basically about the active tank units
@@BattleOrderHeimatschutz Brigades 51-56 were active. 51 and 56 were also NATO assigned and subordinate to the 6th PzGren and 1st Mountain Division (Gebirgs Division).
The Gebirgs Division had also a 4 company strong divisional tank battalion, Gebirgs Panzer Battalion 8)
Thank you for making a video about a german unit.👍
Awesome 👍
Four tanks in motor infantry is simply for better combat resiliency, because tanks were usually attached to infantry in much smaller formations than in tank units
I’m loving the call of duty three music in the background
Y'all might want to be more careful on tne final checks, I've noticed an uptick in the script and graphics being incongruent in the last few videos. Definitely can cause some confusion there.
This one at 1:00 you say "30th Panzer Brigade," and the graphic says "30th Panzergrenadier Brigade."
Fascinating.
love you!
can you do same for artillery units of both Germany's? 😁
wish list:
comparison between artillery table of organization between cold war era USA corps and USSR army.
comparison between USA cold war era and modern time (both field units and artillery).
Good job, Thank you!!!
Happy new years 🥳🎉 ❤
should do a similar video for soviet and American units
Is there any plan on a Video for weapons and equipment of west german medics or medics in general? I always try to find out what weapons those would have. I think medics back then would prob get a P1, MP2 (uzi) or MP5 but I'm not really sure and failed to find stuff on wikipedia about structures and equipment which is sad because cold war is fascinating af.
Comment for statistics
Attempt 2 of asking Battle Order to do an evolution of the organization of the British paratrooper squad, since its formation in the 1940s, to the 1960s, to the Falklands War in 1982, and the current Parachute Regiment.
same model as the rest of the army
@@norbi1411not really, completely different equipment and obviously lots of speciality stuff. And the organisation has only been the same on a small scale quite recently
@@tomsoki5738 since the 50s is recently to you? ok...
@@norbi1411 Operationally it has only been the same since the disbanding of 16 Air Assault Brigade, which was 3 years ago I believe.
GIMME MORE COLD WAR
So, did I understood it wrong or, sometimes only 3 crewmembers were riding in T-55?
No the 4th guy being low opacity was because that type of platoon could have either T-55s or T-72s depending on the parent division. In T-55 units there were 4 crewmembers and in T-72 units there were 3
@@BattleOrder thanks for clarification
I must know if Battle Order have done something like the "Hyperwar 1989" for the hottest year of the Cold War: 1968 (Tet Offensive, Korean DMZ conflict, Warsaw Pact intervention in Czechoslovakia, and much more)
Officer and Enlisted is in the german Army wrong. The Mannschaften Unteroffiziere and Offiziere are different Carrieroptions you cant go from on to the other without a carrierchange.
Can you do a breakdown of the Soviet tank forces in 1989. How prevalent was ERA at this point?
Obviously this is not in depth, but as a general rule: Most or all frontline Cat 1 soviet tank divisions had T-64BV/T-72B/T-80BV (all with ERA) by that point. Cat 2 and 3, and divisions further away from Europe were primarily still equipped with T-62, T-55 and even early T-54 models.
Could you do a video on special forces?
Yay!
Call of duty 3 soundtrack in the background is mega based
A Swedish modeler named Björn Bäcklund claimed that after the Cold War, there was a proposal in Poland to rebuild its T-72s with turrets from the Leopard 2. Does anyone know if there really were conversion proposals to combine the hull of the T-72 with the turret of the Leopard 2?
A similar upgrade system was done in India, called Tank ex where Arjun tank (which was developed party with the help of by Krauss-Maffei and is nearly identical to Leo 2)'s turret was placed on a T-72. It was cancelled and the prototypes are used for development purposes by DRDO
Considering the vast differences in the design doctrine behind those thanks I think something like that would be practically impossible.
T72 Polska zmodernizowała znacząco praktycznie swój własny czołg na początku lat 1990. Nazywa się PT91 Twardy .
Otrzymał nowy silnik, mocniejszy pancerz, system Erawa,kostki na zewnątrz, podczerwień i wiele innych ulepszeń. Teraz Polska oddała dużo PT 91 Twardy na Ukraine. Ponieważ czeka na zamówione najnowsze K2 z Korei i Abramsy z USA
There wasnt, Leo2 turret didnt fit for the hull and there was no space to accomodate 4th crew member within already cramped T72 . But there was a proposal to mount a slimmed down Leclerc turret, far more viable due to autoloader. Technically possible, but far too expensive for the severely underfunded Polish military at the time. Besides, turret houses the majority of the expensive systems in the tank, so with an entirely new turret you might as well buy an entirely new tank.
Interesting and for the East German army they are modeled after the Russians which is why they're organization resembles one why not do the Czechoslovakian Army after this one. For the West German army they are modeled after all the NATO militaries that run like them
I am currently planning a West German vs. Czechoslovakia scenario for my gaming hobby, circa 1983. I can tell you that by the end of the 80's Czechoslovakian battalions consisted of two companies of 20 tanks each, although in the early 80's the companies were 18, 4 × 4 + 2 HQ. T-55AMs.
@christianpethukov8155 thank you for telling me about that looking at the Czechoslovakia West Germany border they will need to deal with a West German and American units.
Do North Korea Vs South Korea 1989 It Would Be Awesome.
That would be a lot of T54s and DPMs...😂
Excellent video as always but was confused on 55 tanks in a Bundeswehr PG brigade? It was drilled into our heads that a Pz Div had 308 tanks, a PG Div had 252 tanks - Germans being percise and even numbers after all lol. (1st Geb Div was a hybrid - Pz Bde/PG Bde/Geb Bde). I went back to our West German handouts from the Armor School to confirm. It states 54 (41 in the Pz Bn and 13 in the mixed Bn). Neither Brigade type Headquarters had tanks in them. The pamphlet was put together by our German Army Liason Officer. Source: Heeresverbindungsstab 3 German Army Liason Staff US Army Armor Center Fort Knox, KY 40121 dated 09.11.88 also on a side note: 20. PR (NVA - 20 MSD) last commander stated he had 1 PB with 31 T-72, 1 PB with T-55 and 1 PB with a mix of T-72s and T-55s for a total of 45 T-72 available for training. I can also confirm this from the AZ-20/20.MSD chronicles.
The introduction of 41 T-72s took place in 1986/87 and a further 4 T-72s were added in 1989 (possibly from the PR-23/9. PZ Div). So at the end there were T-72s in the MSD albeit a mobilization division. *The 9. Pz Div had 21 BMP-2s in the MSR-9 (10 in 3MSK , 10 in 6 MSK and 1 command version later in 1985 ... the other 3 for a total of 24 went to the following: 2 to AZ-20 [20.MSD] and 1 to OHS-Löbau)
13 in the mixed battalion’s one tank company (for PG brigades), but then also 1 in the battalion HQ. So 41 + 14 = 55. In the Pz Brigade its 41 + 41 + 28 = 110 because the mixed battalion had two companies and two tanks in the battalion HQ. Adding 110 + 110 + 55 + 34 from the armored recon battalion = 309
@@BattleOrder The mixed battalion in a PG Bde is a PG Bn hybrid and therefore no tanks in the headquarters (24 IFV/13 Tanks - 11 IFV x 2 Co's + 13 Tank Co + 2 IFV headquarters) ... whereas the mixed bn in a PZ Bde was a PZ Bn hybrid (28 tanks/11 IFV - 13 Tanks x 2 Co's + 11 IFV Co + 2 Tanks headquarters)
@@adrianstocker2199 according to Blume’s book on the 13th Panzergrenadier Brigade their mixed battalion had 1 tank in their battalion HQ, as opposed to the normal 2
@@BattleOrder every division is going to be a little different. I served in Europe for 13 plus years and interacted with the German Army from division to corps to Army level. I retired as a LTC after being severely injured in Iraq (disabled veteran). We are both correct .... Every division in the world to include the US Army divisions will have a bit of variation (MTO&E) but the standard German TO&E is stated above. For example during the Gulf War several VII Corps divisions "added Tanks" to our divisional reconnaissance squadrons (e.g. 1-4 Cav) which was not doctrinal (many divisional commanders having cut their teeth in ACRs as younger officers wanted the increase fire power) ... even the BRO (1st Inf Div) CG had a tank (now show me that in a Mechanized Infantry Division TO&E lol)
I appreciate your videos and all your hard work. Kudos for a job well done.
Interesting... Now you have one working tank and only half the billets filled.
It's kind of shocking to me that the West German company only had 2 officers in it, that's a shit load of administrative load for just two guys to handle, even if you expect your SNCOs to pick up the slack that's still a lot of work to fall on just two guys. It also means officer casualties would disproportionately impact them at the company level, that one LT is going to be in the thick of the fighting and would have a pretty high chance of becoming a casualty, that would just leave a single officer for the whole company, HQ tank gets hit and now the entire unit is out of officers? Clearly the West Germans were fine with NCOs taking on heavy command and admin taskings but living in a situation where a SNCOs is two shots away from being the senior man in a company is wild to me. Why not at least have an LT as XO at C HQ? He'd gain valuable command experience and also be able to tackle admin stuff while enabling some casualty absorption. Junior officers LTs and CPTs almost always have among the highest casualty rates in combat weird the Germans, with their experience in WW2 just ignored that?
Although I am not sure if that was the case during the "Heeresstruktur IV," but I think there was a officer as XO. Though, I can't remember anymore.
By the way, what you say is true. I am a former German OR-8 tanker. I think it was in the late 90's while I was the platoon sergeant of the 1st platoon (led by an officer), our company had to spearhead a counterattack during combat training at CMTC in Hohenfels.
Guess what? CO was knocked out, my platoon leader and the senior NCO platoon leader as well. The 3rd platoon was a "Grenadierzug" which was basically swapped with one of our platoons, and can be sonsidered as "guest." Well, within one minute I suddenly was the oldest guy remaining on the field and I took over and fulfilled our task by crushing into the flank of two armored inf. companies.
Transpose this scenario into a "real world" situation, it would have still been the same for this moment, for this situation. Maybe for another day or so. I was not the highest ranking guy left in my company, as this was the "Kompaniefeldwebel," and he might have taken over. Or some officer from the batallion would be relocated to lead the company, who knows?
Dont let Gaijin see this video
The tank platoon in the Div Aufklärungs Bat. had 3 tanks.
For those who don't know Panzergrenadier in English more or less means Armoured Infantry. Could you please do more comparison videos between the Bundeswehr, the Osterreiches Bundesheer, the Schweizer Armee and the Nasionale Volksarmee?
The better comparison would be comparing both of their bureaucracies.
Неплохой обзор!
Hyperwar?
While east hauptfeldwebel rode Ural, west hauptfeldwebel rode Mercedes. Say no more...
Солдату которому нечего терять, воюет лучше солдата у которого есть что терять, так как ему нечего терять. Так что восточные немцы были более смертноносны, эдакий симбиоз прусского военного духа и традиций с советской доктриной выигравшей вторую мировую.
West German Leopard 1 in Ukraine service: Never thought I would fight side by side with you.
East German T-72 also in Ukraine service: Me neither bro.
Ha! do research about FrankenSAM project. it will blow your mind
Russian T-72: first time?
"Never thoght I'd fight side by side with a Wessi"
Could you also do one for tank units of the british/american and russian forces in germany, please? I need more cold war
video games are great educational tools if i can recognize most of this equipment 😂
Thanks from Hannover 😂
0:30 cyrillic abuse
Ik it has nothing important to do with the video but I love the use of the CoD3 soundtrack
Can you talk about East German Navy please?
a comparison of cold war us and nato armoured units please.
Average warno experience
Dont think I don't recognize the CoD 3 campaign music
Im all for this Hyper war but wish it was 1981 for more realistic apporach just saying
At that time we had a tank force that deserved that name.
What we have nowadays is a pale shadow in comparision.
GUNNER, HEAT, PC!
East Coast vs West Coast German version
Well also need to know that in 1980s Warsaw pact was in decline and that it only got worse to the point of reducing the amount of military equipment.
Love the Cold War content.
The East Germans were still using BM-15 for their T-72 fleet ...
Can you do video on Indonesian military unit?
Quick question what happened to all the Soviet tanks and equipment of east Germany after the collapse of the USSR doesn’t Germany still have the old Soviet weapons after reunification
A lot was more or less donated to Eastern European countries so they could get rid of their older equipment. However a huge ammount was also destroyed as part of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, or just because no one wanted to spend money on it anymore. A small ammount just got to lay around in storage until the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 where most of it was very quickly shipped off to Ukraine. At that point only man portable weapons remained however Germany did still have some workshops and tooling for old Soviet equipment so when other countries started donating their stuff it often went to Germany first to get repaired.
@@hedgehog3180 that’s a shame a lot of those equipments would have been used to supply Ukraine
It would be better if you can include Soviet armored forces stationed in east germany in the comparison
A one is making themselves
A one is making with Big Eastern Daddy's help