In case you have missed the original review: ruclips.net/video/nV8R1G-NeNc/видео.html Also don’t forget to check Lando’s channel ruclips.net/channel/UCOmUMmJwGQ9_66mP2GBC-5A
I would say that it would have been possible for the French to accept an American built warship in lieu of a loan repayment or repayments. The US, at that time, still owed France money from the Revolution.
Now THIS is the way to react when you make mistakes! Not only did you admit it, but you also got a cool video like this out of it. Thanks for giving this movie a second discussion-it is such a wonderful movie, and I never tire of hearing people talk about it.
This movie is an absolute masterpiece. Correcting any false information, I gave on it was the responsible thing to do. Plus, it gave the great opportunity to meet Lando.
19:01 The captain wasn't disciplining Hollom for being "too friendly" - one of the men shoved him disrespectfully and in public view of the rest of the crew. Hollom is cowardly and the crew were growing distrustful of him. The captain is reaming him out here for not acting like a leader - for letting the men walk all over him. For forcing the captain to intervene in something that this midshipman - a VERY old one at that, who has consistently failed to make lieutenant - should have been able to manage on his own. On a ship like this, discipline and order are the only things that stop the very enormous crew from turning on the small number of officers. Hollom failing to learn how to control a ship is like a knight who can't control a horse - it's life and death out there, and if you can't swim you drown.
He did disapprove of Hollum trying to be overly friendly with the crew though. If you remember when they sang the se chanty and Hollum tried to join in he was less than happy about it while the doctor complimented his voice. It's an issue today as it was then, fraternization is frowned upon between officers and troops in any military service.
@@fighterck6241 I used to work on cargo ships, and that's one thing that did irritate me as an unlicensed mariner, i.e., not an officer. I liked working and socializing with friendly officers, but I resented when they treated me too familiarly or included me in upper deck drama. Officers' affairs are neither my business nor my responsibility, and they should not be involving me in it. The last thing I need is to be shoved in the middle of a dispute between two officers because they put me on their side of the social line.
One thing about the chase scenes: in the books Captain Aubrey always makes sure that his crew goes into battle with a full belly before dousing the fire in the galley for security reasons. So there was plenty of time for that. About the boarding scene: It's also something that's only in the books, but the first lieutenant is an excellent seaman but not very skilled in close combat (the one time he was part of a boarding party in the books earned him the scar across his face), so maybe that's why he's not first choice to lead the attack. (He's not even in in the book the movie is based on, but Tom Pullings is a fan favourite among the book readers so they put him in anyway).
23:40 There is even one scene in the books where they cover the gun ports with canvas and then paint slightly off fake gun ports onto the canvas to give the impression of a weak ship trying to scare off attackers with those fake gun ports.
Another point about the "sextant class" during the chase scene: Midshipmen were basically officer's cadets, and had to learn navigation. Noon was the start of a new day at sea, and calling noon exactly was important for the internal rhythm of the ship for the next 24 hours(bells rung every half hour, and 8 bells to each watch). Noon was important in navigation, since it would be checked against the ship's chronometers which where all set at Greenwich. Thereby they could calculate longitude.
As for Jack Aubrey and his relationship with his crew. It is true that discipline in the Royal Navy could be harsh, but in the novels there are some mitigating factors. First, Aubrey knows a happy crew usually does not need strict discipline. Frigates were smaller than Ships of the Line with smaller crews...every man pretty much knew every man and any trouble makers were known and pretty much under the eye of a petty officer at all times. Although Aubrey advanced through several ships in the novels, unlike modern navies, he was able to pretty much take his best crewmen along with him when he changed commands...so he was commanding the cream of his prior crews. He was successful as a fighting captain...which meant prize money shared out to the officers and crew. Crewmen didn't make trouble for captains who brought them success. The happier the crew, the less need for constant strict discipline. And all those crewmen knew that really heavy discipline could land on them like a ton of bricks if they stepped out of line, so unless the Captain was extraordinarily brutal, most crews and Captains were not adverse to some cheerfulness. The better the crew's attitude, the better they worked the ship and the successful Captains knew that.
Regarding the call to "Beat to Quarters." Since the survival of the ship during the events of the following few minutes resulted from that call, I doubt if the Captain would implement disciplinary measures. A seaman tends to "get away with stuff" if that "stuff" saves the ship.
On the point of Aubrey being too friendly with the junior officers, keep in mind that they are not just junior officers but as was the norm during this age, teenagers and in some cases basically children. They needed a father figure to raise them while at sea, so far away from their families and that means friendship and perhaps even love as well as stern discipline. The class divide in those times was also a yawning chasm - many of these junior officers are coming from prominent families, some with ties to the Navy going back generations and the captain might very well know their relatives or even have been trained under them himself. The average crewmember is a whole different issue. Showing them anything more than curt, stern politeness at the very best of times would have been a major social faux pas. A gentleman did should not care about earning the friendship of commoners.
Concealing gun ports was used but on a reverse issue...a lot of merchant vessels, especially East Indiamen would paint a wide yellow stripe along the length of the hull, much like the Royal Navy...and then they painted black squares along the yellow stripe mimicking gun ports. The Indiamen were armed but less so than a Royal Navy warship, but they could fire cannon. From a distance the Indiamen, which were quite large, a vessel firing cannon and apparently having even more cannon could be mistaken for a frigate and would discourage smaller combat vessels from engaging.
If you haven’t read the Aubrey/Maturin novels, you must. Greatest historical fiction ever written, in my opinion, and, as your guest mentioned, chock full of fascinating naval details.
It's also not uncommon for ships to have changed hands from one navy to another in battle, even if those countries are currently at peace, because allegiances shifted so often during the age of sail between France, the US and England/Great Britain. So the Archeron didn't have to be built FOR France, it just could have ended up in French hands. And yeah, it's even more likely if it's a privateer
That still remains my one major annoyance with this movie in terms of historical accuracy (not that it detracts from my enjoyment). The 44 gun frigates of that style were so uniquely American that it doesn't make any sense for France to have one, especially when the two countries had close ties so it wouldn't have been a capture. France didn't need any 44 gun frigates of that type, they were made specifically because the early US couldn't afford to build a navy of man o' wars and frigates, plus smaller ships, that was the custom at the time, so they created a hybrid of sorts that could beat any frigate it encountered but was fast enough to escape action with the massive man o' wars. I suppose it would be possible to come up with a very specific excuse to justify it in the movie but they didn't so it always rankles me when I watch it.
@@awilk418 Sorry, you may be taken in a bit by US historic bias. Both the Royal Navy and the French Navy had heavy frigates and particularly the French experimented with that and had 40-50 gun frigates in the 1790s. The very reason why the Royal Navy went with smaller standard 32-38 gun frigates in numbers was because they needed such numbers to address all their naval commitments. The very reason the French throughout the entire 18th and 19th century went with often heavier gunned ships than the British was that they could not match British numbers so tried to built their ships heavier to beat the standard British ship (though given the numbers the British countered that mainly by razeeing bigger ships of the line that were pulled out of the line due to age or as caütires to plug the gap So France did not only need heavy frigates, it built them first and for similar reasons the US navy did. Obviously the Constitution class frigates represent the pinnacle of heavy frigate design with certain expensive and unique aspects to be the best they can. So obviously that style is unique, however one could have easily adapted it to the British frigate being a smaller frigate running into a French heavy frigate or razee. Main point: Not just the US had the idea to build ships with something between 40-50 guns and saw an advantage to have a heavy brawler capable to mess up smaller standard frigates
@@mangalores-x_x I spoke badly I admit, I was aware that the concept of a heavy frigate was not original to the US, however I had only ever heard them referred to as deemed not worth it by European powers. Admittedly I am not highly educated on the French naval fleet of the period and I may have made an assumption that they were designed virtually identical to the English fleet at the time and had similar results with the concept. I appreciate the information though. I wish they had just described it as a French heavy frigate built in France in the movie then and not mentioned it being American built at all since that seems much more plausible.
@@awilk418 it was originally to be an American ship, but changed to French because they thought American audiences wouldn’t like it. That’s why it ended up as an American-built frigate in French hands.
A ton of ships were built for other countries and especially in the UK at that time. They built ships for Japan (until Kongo), some for Germany, for the CSA, for Spain, South America... And thats just the capital ships. So "no war ships built for foreign countries" is really far fetched.
With all due respect, only Kongo herself was built in the UK, she was then sailed to Japan with the blueprints where her three sisters were then built.
Holy shit i actually get to leave the first comment, I was planning on joining the navy in the past and I've always been interested in nautical facts and procedures keep making the great videos and I hope you react to more ship related content. Cheers from Hell!
To address the Captain being too friendly, In the books (I dont think they covered it in the movie) He had been busted down from midshipman to serve as a regular seaman for (I believe) womanizing as a young lad. So he also felt that he understood the mind of the regular crew. He also didnt hesitate to have a man flogged when it was needed. I think that man was drunk on duty. So Lucky Jack wasnt seen as a softy except by tyrant officers who flogged at the drop of a hat. I need to re-read the books again.
The sailor was flogged because he deliberately showed disrespect towards that midshipman (who had noticed but not reacted) - this incident was followed by a intense argument between the captain and the surgeon (really worth watching) about discipline and the literal sense of discipline aboard his Majesty's ships.
1) Wood working skills were essential to the wooden world - the entire ship could be rebuilt and repaired as needed - and they would a pretty deep knowledge and interest in contraction techniques for the ships that were their world. Crewmen made all kinds of models and extremely artistic scrimshaw works - months a sea with a very limited entertainment possibilities made for very skilled model builders and craftsman. 2) American built heavy frigates served as privateers for anybody. US had the wood, and built some of finest heavy frigates in the world - The British West Africa anti slaving squadron was out gunned by the US build slavers. 3) The best captains were not hated or feared by their crews. The brutal ones tended to be unsuccessful - Aubrey is based upon a real life character - Lord Thomas Cochrane - who lived an incredible life. 4) Stephen Maturin was not the official ships doctor, but a spy, naturalists, doctor but was a civilian guest of Aubrey.
The US build slavers definitly didnt outgun the west africa squadron. The US didnt gave the heavy frigattes to slavers and the slaver didnt use heavy frigattes to transport slaves. In the space one gun takes they could cram 10 or more slaves, so more guns means less profit, total unamerican. They used clippers build in the US, to outrun the royal navy, one of these clippers, captured by the RN was the most sucsessfull slaver hunter. Maturin was official the ships doctor, not a guest, Aubrey hired him as his ships doctor
@@wolf310ii That Baltimore Clipper - Black Joke fought heavier armed ships frequently enough, notably Spanish like the Marinerito. West Africa Squadron was very small initially and poorly equipped. There battles against the heavier armed ships made the London papers frequently. Lots of slavers were indeed small and lightly armed, but by no means all. The Surprise had a doctor, Maturin was a friend, a spy, naturalist and scientist - and a much better doctor than the ships one. At least in the books.
@@HankD13 Still, none of the slavers outguned the WAS and none of the ships the HMS Black Joke fought or captured was a heavy frigatte or even a frigatte. Even the much larger East Indiamen didnt outgun a RN 5th rate frigatte unless they were bought by the RN and rebuild and rearmed as a 4th rate ship. But if, like you say, the US build lots heavy frigattes for slavers, name only one. If the slavers could outgun the WAS, they wouldnt need ships that could outrun them and the WAS wouldnt had captured 1600 of them. In the books Maturin is since the HMS Sophie the offical ships doctor, paid by the RN. Guest didnt get paid. The "ships doctor" the Surprise already had, was Maturins assistant. Only on the very first voyage, Maturin was a guest.
Btw the title is quite exaggerated, your first video quite good overall, it was based on your experience so don’t say that you were « completely wrong », say that you didn’t have the historical knowledge
One fact about foreign build ships used navys that seems to have been forgotten here: In those days it was common, that ships who had been boarded durring a fight were often taken as prizes (Like the Acheron at theend of the movie) And quiet often those ships were then repaired and taken back into service by the victors. The Brits especially were known to keep French ships in service, as those ships were in most regards very well made and often better sailors than their British counterparts.
So funny. I watched the original video yesterday and I just though, once I have a keyboard, I should comment on some points he mentioned because appears to not be aware of certain details of the historical background. Great to see this follow up.
I am so amused by your excellent video And impressed by your authenticity or something er...anyway. I loved this movie ever since I saw it in the cinema at the best theatre in London at the time. A low key masterpiece of cinema as well as the sea along with Das Boot and The Cruel Sea. Thank You.
The french ship (i don't know how to write it's name) is based on the USS Constitution a big war ship that was build in Boston in the book it was more of a direct reference with being an american ship and all, but in the movie they change the nationality of the ship to make more sense with the french/britan conflict at the time
In the book it was also a smaller frigatte. Actually they took very little from the book, mainly the title and the chase of an ship into the pacific to protect the whalers, the majority of the movie is based on the other (20) books. AFAIK in the book The far side of the World, there is no sea battle, but a land battle, they dot catch up to the ship they chasing until it sinks in a storm
They grabbed bits and pieces from several different books. Technically the Acheron in the movie would be an American frigate like the Constitution. Those vessels were built of exceptional wood available in North America and to carry a significantly heavier weight of the typical English or French frigate. Basically she could outgun and outlast any other frigate she encountered and out sail the large first rate ships of the line who could crush her.
@@mathiasbartl9393 yes, but the concept of the movie, ie Aubrey chasing a ship, is from the book "Far Side of the World" where Aubrey pursued the fictional smaller frigate USS Norfolk.
"A French warship built in the US? Not likely." British ship builders: "Uh yeah... we are also definitely not building ships for the Japanese... or Chileans or the Brazilians... move along now."
Funny thing is, right from day 1 of the Articles of Confederation basically, the US has been in the racket of building ships for other nations. Heck even during the US Civil War the Union was still building ships for foreign navies like the Italians, a state of the art ironclad warship that was oddly enough, basically superior to anything the Union or Confederacy had at the time. Only a somewhat recent-ish trend to not be doing that, as opposed to what the US tends to do now, selling old hulls to minor allied nations like Greece. Though the Japanese Government has been wanting to buy some of the aging US 7th Fleet Carriers for a long time.
And they called it out as a privateer repeatedly. They even had a scene dedicated to teaching the audience what a privateer was. These guys get no points for observational skills.
To be fair to them, it makes sense when you're looking at it in a modern perspective. The tendency that existed in centuries prior to have your navy built by a foreign power is considered almost unthinkable nowadays. Though the trend does continue with the likes of Aircraft, Tanks, Body Armor, Guns, etc. In particular because both Post WW2 and Post Cold War there was such a huge glut of naval vessels that were no longer considered necessary that instead of people contracting the US, British, etc, to build a new ship, well they can just buy one off the back of the old war. Such as the Aregentine Flagship in the Falkland War which was the former USS Phoenix if I remember? Old WW2 cruiser they had bought off America at any point. It's one of those things that's hard for people to wrap their minds around because it's so bizarrely out of character to the world that they know. Particularly for the French post WW2, where part of their economic plans post war for the recovery was to rebuild and focus on being a creator and exporter of military hardware. From building their own navy back up, to new Tanks, Guns, Planes, etc.
14:40 "it's quite vague in the movie" whether or not Acheron was a privateer or a naval ship? From the literal second shot of the movie: "ADMIRALTY ORDERS to Cpt. J Aubrey 'Intercept French Privateer ACHERON en route to Pacific _INTENT_ _ON_ _CARRYING_ _THE_ _WAR_ _INTO_ _THOSE_ _WATERS_ ... Sink, Burn, or take her a Prize'" They told us almost first thing in the movie that Acheron is a privateer, there's nothing remotely vague about it. Also, Jack wasn't chasing the American ship Acheron was analogous to in the book "Master and Commander," he pursued the frigate USS Norfolk in the 10th book "The Far Side of the World".
Saw your first review and saw some of the points corrected in this video (still, I enjoyed your first review though). Seeing that you're doing this clarification video really speaks good about you! Congratulations and continue with the good content!!!!
On the subject of the ship being foreign built, it could happen. In the US Civil War the Confederacy had several of its major ships built in other countries. For example the raider, CSS Alabama was built in Britain, armed and commissioned at sea and spent almost two years raiding Union ships and was sunk off of France and never once entered a Confederate port.
If you want an example of the captain leading the boarding party, the best one must be Nelson at Cape St Vincent, whereas captain of HMS Captain, he led the boarding party that captured San Nicolas and then, when San Josef came alongside to render aid, he led the boarding party that captured that ship too. Nelson also provides the example of the point that staying on your own ship was not necessarily a much safer option.
Would add that building warships to be sold to or originally for other countries was not unheard of and would become very common at the 19th century progressed. One big example is Japan, which initially relied heavily on imported ships before their native industry was modernized.
A bit of a nitpick, but the USS America, a ship of the line was built in Maine and given to the French navy. They didn’t like it. Boston was known for making privateers for French entrepreneurs.
I think that the captain and the doctor joined in the boarding because Acheron had such a notable superiority in terms of the size of the crew that they needed every man who could fight to take part in the boarding.
The real HMS Surprise's surgeon took part in the cutting out of the Santa Cecilia (formerly HMS Hermione). He was right alongside Captain Edward Hamilton in the thick of the action on deck.
By the way, in the previous video you mentioned the incoherent set of signal flags flying by the ship when she lays in the doldrums. I've seen an explanation from one of the film crew members, that the idea is that the flag become wet in the lockers due to high humidity and were hang out to dry. Thanks for your reviews.
Sailing after another ship, especially in the middle latitudes, two ships would be sailing pretty much as the same speed, depending on the size of each ship, the way it was rigged, how long it had been at sea and the quality of the crew. A smaller ship could usually outpace a larger ship unless it was in heavy seas. A ship of the line was huge but relatively slow, whereas a frigate was faster. But in heavy seas the frigate might actually be slower as the impact of the current affected it more. Another factor would be the condition of the hull...a ship which had been at sea longer would be significantly slower due to marine growth on the hull which would increase drag. But if one ship is near the horizon and the winds are light, the difference in speeds could be a quarter of a knot...at long distances it takes a long time to make up that distance. At Trafalgar for example, the two fleets sighted one another shortly after 5 am. The Spanish/French commander was not able to see the entire British fleet until 11....and the first shot was fired by the French at long range almost precisely at noon. So Nelson, with the current, the wind and the direction of both fleets in his favor took over six hours to get into combat range.
There is an interesting book about food on ships of that time by the title "Feeding Nelson's Navy" by Janet McDonald. Highly informative and well written.
Desolation Island by Patrick O'Brian has a brilliant chase and blew my reading mind. It was my first POB book and after reading various formulaic fiction. It was so freshing. I know the scene is based on actual naval history.
I recomed you to watch "The terror" from the historybuffs channel, is a really good video about the chillin story of the erebus and the terror two ships that went missing during a expedition to find the northen passage
For a station bill for boarding, for action in battalion etc, you could look at INSTALLATION DES VAISSEAUX, Missiessy, Edouard Burges, Imprimerie de la République, Paris, 1797 - which covers a multitude of task organisations for a typical 74 gun ship. A frigate is organised similarly, but has fewer crew and fewer guns, on a single main battery, plus supplemental gaillard pieces
Nelson attacked and captured three Spanish ships in one engagement, leading the boarding parties. If a Captain had a reliable junior officer to maintain his own vessel, the Captain might lead an attack.
Nigel (the man in the movie building the model) IS a master carpenter! His rank is stated as carpenters mate later, an NGO, and thus a trained carpenter.
About the Acheron being built in America but sailing for the French, it's entirely possible that the ship could have changed hands by being captured. It was a common practice to put captured ships into your own service. If a ship was captured in a battle, it would likely need costly repairs, but capturing could also take place at the port, as was the case in the bombing of Copenhagen.
It's possible the Acheron was a US built ship which was captured and brought into French service. By the end of the Napoleonic Wars a significant amount of the Royal Navy were captured Dutch, Danish, French or Spanish vessels which were not so damaged so they could be added to the British navy.
That would work if the French had ever been at war with the USA. Pressing captured vessels into service was done by all of the major naval powers of the Napoleonic period. Several ships exchanged hands more than once. HMS Speedy, for example, was captured by the French and then recaptured and then captured again by the French. The second time occurred whilst she was under the command of Thomas Cochrane on whom Jack Aubry is based. In the novels, Speedy is the model for his first ship - HMS Sophie.
So in other words -- what all the people posting to the previous video said. It was interesting to hear a mariner refer to ships as boats, and different decks as different floors. Also, I spent a bit of time at sea in the U.S. Navy and it had its fun and interesting moments, but didn't feel connected to the sea or naval history until I learned to sail. That's something you might want to consider.
The ruse from The Chase scene (using a decoy) was in a book called, ‘Secret Sea’ by Robb White, but in that case, it was to fool an enemy ship which had radar. The book was written in the 50s or 60s.
in the novels the doctor is no mere doctor, among other things he is a practised swordsman bc he fought duels as a pastime in his youth. he is definitely a fictional swashbuckler of a doctor, for all love.
So question for Vince, if you saw a possible iceberg in foggy weather, would you call out a course correction or check with the captain first? (Maybe that makes that scene more relevant).
On the issue with the ship model, I can't recall if the sailor was a carpenters mate, which would have made him more knowledgeable about ship construction. As far as commanding a vessel, if something happens to the captain depending on the number of Lieutenant's or Senior midshipman, they would commonly take command, especially in prize ships
I may be a bit late, but concerning the problems with the ship replica and if the ship could be made in Boston for the french, I have my two cents to give. First the replica: Willy, the blonde guy, was in Boston during peace time, for his marriage. First that narrows it down to 9 years between the end of the War of Independence (1783) and the start of the napoleonic wars (1792). In that time it was not unusual for the british husband-to-be to stay quite a while, even years. He also had to work to earn money. And since his wife's second cousin worked in the Boston docks and he was a sailing master's mate, it is not inconceivable that he also worked on the Archeron. As for the building of the replica, the dark haired fella with the blue jacket is the carpenter's mate. So of course he had both the tools and raw materials as well as the abiity to put together this model. Also, in the following scene, where Aubrey shows the replica to the other officers, they are mostly commenting about the number of cannonports and the quality of the vertical hull reinforcements (I don't know the english term, sorry). That is clearly something an interested sailor could notice. As for a french ship being built in the US. You have to remember, that France and the USA were closely allied during that time. France had supported american independence with ships and troops. It was totally normal for american shipbuilders to be commissioned to build ships for the french. Especially since the american shipbuilders had large amounts of huge oak trees at their disposal, while french shipbuilders either had to import the precious wood or use cheaper materials. Also, the Archeron is mentioned in the beginning of the movie, to be a privateer. These were in that time often privately funded (though that practise was mostly done by the english) or semi-privately. The latter meant that the french navy gave some officers leave to hire with such privateering contracts. That way, the french government could hope to have a thorough assessment of goods plundered, so they could tax them correctly. After all, the captain and other officers were in fact french naval officers. But even without that privateering distinction, it is quite plausible for the french to have their ships built by an ally, who made better ships.
i don't know about Napoleonic times but on the run up to WW1 the UK was making warships for other nations. but during the age of sail it was common for ships that were captured to be taken into the fleet
Merchants would carry at least one cannon per side as it was a common signaling device. (Lets say you're being attacked by a pirate and want other ships nearby to notice you and come help. A great way to do this is to shoot off a cannon. Everyones head turns and thinks "What was that"? There were also pre-arranged signals with thinks like port authorities and other ships using cannon shots. (Fire 3 cannon shots away from the port in 5 minutes outside the port and we will send an inspector and pilot to you by boat" or something)
I think the film just gets away with giving the doctor a fight scene. It's made clear that he follows the impetuous one armed midshipman to protect him when he leads an unexpected boarding action.
The French had several US built ships - importantly the La America (74). They didn't have a 'United States' class frigate of 24s or even a large frigate of 18s like the Chesapeake, but there were other types. The French tended to build to their own design standards ~ which were appreciated (if modified) by the British, who captured a lot, revising hold arrangements and bulwarks to suit their preferences and needs. The original story has a US frigate of (presumably) 12s The 'Norfolk' which is supposed to approximate the Frigate Essex (by 1810 re-armed with 32pdr carronades as a significant improvement in firepower at the line of metal range, and even more at the 'line of metal ranges with reduced charges/double shot...) and her successful (if truncated) raid on British Whaling ships in the Pacific - while Surprise is armed with either 9pdr guns (or maybe also with 32pdr carronades - the ex l'Unite had been scrapped in 1802, but similar ship sloops with 9pdr guns had shifted to carronade armament by the 1812 war - see Cherub, Levant and Cyane for three example classes of 6 or 9pdr classes significantly upgunned)
Some perspective from a US Naval Academy grad and former active duty USMC artillery officer. When Midshipmen Callamy and Hollom are discussing what to do, Hollom was being indecisive. This is a BIG, BIG, BIG leadership failing in any well-run and respectable naval service. He was serving as officer of the watch. US Navy and Royal Navy captains, then and now, expect their officers of the watch to make certain decisions within the authority granted to them as OOW. This would include calling the warship to quarters in the event of danger from another warship or nautical hazard. In the US Navy (and Royal Navy I'm certain as well), you are constantly reminded that a good decision now is better than the perfect decision later. The reality of naval and military service is that you rarely, almost never, have all the information you need or want to make logically perfect decisions. Instead, information comes to you in degrees over time at infrequent intervals. You use what information you have and at some point make a decision to act, period. It was Callamy (the younger and less experienced of the two midshipmen) who ordered "Beat to quarters". This was the correct call given what happened moments later. But Hollom was being indecisive and such indecisiveness could have made the bad outcome in the first fight FAR more serious, if not fatal. It's also a major difference in the two characters' development in the story. Hollom is out of his depth as a young, aspiring naval officer and struggles to gain respect from this fellow midshipmen and superior officers. That's why he tries to insinuate himself with the crew despite a very strict hierarchy that doesn't allow such fraternization. Eventually Hollom finds himself disrespected by the sailors and so depressed and lonely that he commits suicide. Callamy, on the other hand, is (or was) a fine young man demonstrating potential to be an excellent naval officer. Aubrey recognized his leadership qualities and could see the enlisted sailors respected young Callamy enough to follow him into a desperate life-or-death fight. Unfortunately for Callamy, his promotion to lead a boarding party and his leading from the front (as he should) gets him killed.
I know they'd have hard-tack, corned beef, salted pork, sauerkraut, maybe some pickled vegetables, limes or lime juice, wine, small beers or harder? Rum- I'm assuming the grog was mixed aboard- probably with stale water? What else would they have stocked?
About the model. "Exactly accurate?" Well, compared to bluff-bowed shipping, a sharp-bowed ship of war might well have been noticed and described to the model maker. I've walked around the Constellation (a fast Civil War frigate) in dry dock, and the sharpness of the bow was quite dramatic: the leading edge of the stem was sided to 4", and streamlined beyond that. Of course, since this is a fiction based on a fiction, it would be interesting to see what O'Brian wrote of that scene.
Acheron is also modeled on the Constitution-class frigates which were remarkably heavily built for their size and speed, and if he'd seen her frames they would have appeared distinctive and memorable.
Typical supplies were 4 mo water (plus Beer and Wine or Spirits), but 6 mo of bread, salt pork and salt beef, raisins, suet, pease etc. Fresh produce lasted less well so was consumed in the first weeks of the voyage - with milk and eggs from goats or hens - until they find their way to table or die from disease. French ships with larger crews and less compact hold arrangements (on a slightly larger hull) typically stowed for 3 mo/5mo.instead.
21:05 Seagull control hunting albatross with anything but a crossbow is considered bad form "the rhyme of the ancient mariner" provides some background information on hunting albatross and the possible consequences
Her Majesty ship "Surprise" was a post-ship and a privateer (The Quasi-War with France 1798 - 1801), thats why they were able to maintain at sea for a such long time. Usa and France had very tight relationsand were alies (Treaty of Alliance and the Treaty of Amity and Commerce on February 6, 1778.) , AAAAAAnd the cool thing is Frigate "Acheron" was modeled after frigate USS "Constitution" which was built at Edmund Hartt's shipyard in the North End of Boston, Massachusetts.
14:26 what about captured ships? Several French built ships ended up serving in the British Navy after being captured. Not that I'd expect a USA ship to be captured by France since they weren't at war as far as I can remember. But it might be a factor to consider.
Not sure if you heard, but another thing merchants did to scare away threats at the time would be to paint logs black and make them look like cannons, as another reason they could get away with that look.
An important contextual point is that England was at war and its a warshi, so operationally things would be different from normal ships or peacetime situations.
The ship mockup creator in the movie might have photographic memory and just be very good with his hands, or have some sort of savant-thing going with forms and such.
I figured he spent some time in Boston, as it was noted in the movie he was there for his wedding, and might have observed her being built over many days or even weeks. If he'd had a room overlooking the shipyard, he might have even sketched her.
The movie is very accurate, and the O'Brian books are EXTREMELY accurate (and super researched - compiled with the help of numerous naval historians and from hundreds of actual historical log books and battle logs from past naval skirmishes). The O'Brian books are great, but before reading, familiarize yourself with age of sail/british naval terminology. The author makes a VERY authentic setting/story/dialogue, so there is no coddling; you have to figure the terminology out on your own, and he does not hold back from speaking with all the complexities that experts of the time would. but the authenticity really makes the stories feel super real, if you can adapt to the language of the time/setting. the culture of the european age is well described, not just naval culture but also social and military cultures, on land and water, for those times (as well as social tensions and politics). but seriously, it's not a read for casual readers; educate yourself before starting or you'll regret it and not enjoy what is a truly masterful series of novels.
The Aubrey/Maturin are the best seafaring books you are likely to find. And you wil want to reread them. Aubrey is based on the real life figure of Admiral Thomas Cochrane. He lived long enough for there to be an actual photograph of him in his old age. Also, having been to a whaling station in the late 1960’s I can attest to the stench which is so powerful it practically has a physical body. Also, the utter grumsomness of the process. But where else would you take a nine year old for an afternoon out?
The French built excellent ships...it was the inability of the French to attain the skill of the British crews, which were almost constantly at sea while the French were on average bottled up in ports. The British LOVED to take French built vessels into British service.
Not to dispute anything that has been said, but regarding the "needlessly elaborate" repainting of the Surprise to fool the Acheron, is it possible that Aubrey does not want to take the chance of the French seeing through the deception? The Acheron, by this point, has successfully ambushed them once, almost caught up with them and the British plan relies on them getting at point blank range to succeed. Given those circumstances, is it conveivable that Aubrey have gone to such lengths to disguise his ship given the risks if the plan failed?
Even in the XX Century it was quite usual to have warships built in another country. The British yards built a lot of warships for other navies, like Brazil, Argentina, Japan, etc... The Japanese warships that defeated the Russian Navy in Tsushima were built in the UK and US!
The doctor joining in the boarding is actually a bow to the books, where Stephen Maturin ist not only a doctor and scientist, but also an English spy and an excellent sword fighter and shot.
Refer to my response to your first video, you appear to have ignored it. Regarding the doctor joining the fight. The Acheron cannon fire had blown a hole in the hull and the French were entering the ship. So do you think the doctor should have sat and watched?? also, if there was a clergyman aboard he would have joined in the fighting also, particularly on a small frigate like Surprise! Since Aubrey was based on Sir Thomas Cochran check his exploits and history!
The idea that a sailor could make a good model of a ship isn't unusual, they did it all the time. But there are two issues here. To make a model of the shape of a ship, one would have to see the ship out of the water, or a similar or sister ship at least. The real issue here is the scantlings, how bulky and closely spaced the futtocks, or frames, were under the planking, and to a lesser extent, how thick the planks were and what species of wood was used in each case. This would have been obvious at a glance. If you have beefy futtocks spaced every 30 mm on center, then that makes a much stronger boat than if the frames were smaller in dimensions and spaced 60 mm on center. To see that difference one would only have to spend a few minutes below, though of course planking thickness might not be that obvious, unless one of the sailors mentioned it to a visitor. the USS Constitution was a famous example of a very heavily built ship 'old ironsides' which was kind of what O'Brian was referencing here. Supplies of good timber would obviously have played a part in how heavy a ship could have been built, also cost, and a lighter ship would generally sail better, so there were many variables. there is also the fact that this time was sort of the infancy of technical and standardized naval architecture, and the first books on the subject were published by France around this time;.
In case you have missed the original review:
ruclips.net/video/nV8R1G-NeNc/видео.html
Also don’t forget to check Lando’s channel
ruclips.net/channel/UCOmUMmJwGQ9_66mP2GBC-5A
Pleas look at the series the Terror. A rely good series with a loot of accuret parts even if a few horror elements is in it to.
I would say that it would have been possible for the French to accept an American built warship in lieu of a loan repayment or repayments. The US, at that time, still owed France money from the Revolution.
Now THIS is the way to react when you make mistakes! Not only did you admit it, but you also got a cool video like this out of it. Thanks for giving this movie a second discussion-it is such a wonderful movie, and I never tire of hearing people talk about it.
This movie is an absolute masterpiece. Correcting any false information, I gave on it was the responsible thing to do. Plus, it gave the great opportunity to meet Lando.
Agree to the highest extent on all your points 👏🙌
19:01 The captain wasn't disciplining Hollom for being "too friendly" - one of the men shoved him disrespectfully and in public view of the rest of the crew. Hollom is cowardly and the crew were growing distrustful of him. The captain is reaming him out here for not acting like a leader - for letting the men walk all over him. For forcing the captain to intervene in something that this midshipman - a VERY old one at that, who has consistently failed to make lieutenant - should have been able to manage on his own. On a ship like this, discipline and order are the only things that stop the very enormous crew from turning on the small number of officers. Hollom failing to learn how to control a ship is like a knight who can't control a horse - it's life and death out there, and if you can't swim you drown.
Ironically put.
Also if hold on to a cannonball…
He did disapprove of Hollum trying to be overly friendly with the crew though. If you remember when they sang the se chanty and Hollum tried to join in he was less than happy about it while the doctor complimented his voice. It's an issue today as it was then, fraternization is frowned upon between officers and troops in any military service.
@@fighterck6241 especially in the Royal Navy of the 18th century
@@fighterck6241 I used to work on cargo ships, and that's one thing that did irritate me as an unlicensed mariner, i.e., not an officer. I liked working and socializing with friendly officers, but I resented when they treated me too familiarly or included me in upper deck drama. Officers' affairs are neither my business nor my responsibility, and they should not be involving me in it. The last thing I need is to be shoved in the middle of a dispute between two officers because they put me on their side of the social line.
He wasn't a seaman, he was a carpenter's mate. Hull structure was his job.
One thing about the chase scenes: in the books Captain Aubrey always makes sure that his crew goes into battle with a full belly before dousing the fire in the galley for security reasons. So there was plenty of time for that.
About the boarding scene: It's also something that's only in the books, but the first lieutenant is an excellent seaman but not very skilled in close combat (the one time he was part of a boarding party in the books earned him the scar across his face), so maybe that's why he's not first choice to lead the attack.
(He's not even in in the book the movie is based on, but Tom Pullings is a fan favourite among the book readers so they put him in anyway).
So great to team up with you and talk history, Vince! Keep up the great work.
23:40 There is even one scene in the books where they cover the gun ports with canvas and then paint slightly off fake gun ports onto the canvas to give the impression of a weak ship trying to scare off attackers with those fake gun ports.
They did exactly that in the movie
@@cleverusername9369 hiding their guns by looking like they were hiding a lack of guns.
You beat me to the same comment by two years haha
Another point about the "sextant class" during the chase scene: Midshipmen were basically officer's cadets, and had to learn navigation. Noon was the start of a new day at sea, and calling noon exactly was important for the internal rhythm of the ship for the next 24 hours(bells rung every half hour, and 8 bells to each watch). Noon was important in navigation, since it would be checked against the ship's chronometers which where all set at Greenwich. Thereby they could calculate longitude.
As for Jack Aubrey and his relationship with his crew. It is true that discipline in the Royal Navy could be harsh, but in the novels there are some mitigating factors. First, Aubrey knows a happy crew usually does not need strict discipline. Frigates were smaller than Ships of the Line with smaller crews...every man pretty much knew every man and any trouble makers were known and pretty much under the eye of a petty officer at all times. Although Aubrey advanced through several ships in the novels, unlike modern navies, he was able to pretty much take his best crewmen along with him when he changed commands...so he was commanding the cream of his prior crews. He was successful as a fighting captain...which meant prize money shared out to the officers and crew. Crewmen didn't make trouble for captains who brought them success. The happier the crew, the less need for constant strict discipline. And all those crewmen knew that really heavy discipline could land on them like a ton of bricks if they stepped out of line, so unless the Captain was extraordinarily brutal, most crews and Captains were not adverse to some cheerfulness. The better the crew's attitude, the better they worked the ship and the successful Captains knew that.
Regarding the call to "Beat to Quarters." Since the survival of the ship during the events of the following few minutes resulted from that call, I doubt if the Captain would implement disciplinary measures. A seaman tends to "get away with stuff" if that "stuff" saves the ship.
That was not an ordinary seaman. That was a Midshipman, a Junior Officer doing his duty in time of war .
On the point of Aubrey being too friendly with the junior officers, keep in mind that they are not just junior officers but as was the norm during this age, teenagers and in some cases basically children. They needed a father figure to raise them while at sea, so far away from their families and that means friendship and perhaps even love as well as stern discipline.
The class divide in those times was also a yawning chasm - many of these junior officers are coming from prominent families, some with ties to the Navy going back generations and the captain might very well know their relatives or even have been trained under them himself.
The average crewmember is a whole different issue. Showing them anything more than curt, stern politeness at the very best of times would have been a major social faux pas. A gentleman did should not care about earning the friendship of commoners.
Concealing gun ports was used but on a reverse issue...a lot of merchant vessels, especially East Indiamen would paint a wide yellow stripe along the length of the hull, much like the Royal Navy...and then they painted black squares along the yellow stripe mimicking gun ports. The Indiamen were armed but less so than a Royal Navy warship, but they could fire cannon. From a distance the Indiamen, which were quite large, a vessel firing cannon and apparently having even more cannon could be mistaken for a frigate and would discourage smaller combat vessels from engaging.
If you haven’t read the Aubrey/Maturin novels, you must. Greatest historical fiction ever written, in my opinion, and, as your guest mentioned, chock full of fascinating naval details.
It's also not uncommon for ships to have changed hands from one navy to another in battle, even if those countries are currently at peace, because allegiances shifted so often during the age of sail between France, the US and England/Great Britain. So the Archeron didn't have to be built FOR France, it just could have ended up in French hands. And yeah, it's even more likely if it's a privateer
That still remains my one major annoyance with this movie in terms of historical accuracy (not that it detracts from my enjoyment). The 44 gun frigates of that style were so uniquely American that it doesn't make any sense for France to have one, especially when the two countries had close ties so it wouldn't have been a capture. France didn't need any 44 gun frigates of that type, they were made specifically because the early US couldn't afford to build a navy of man o' wars and frigates, plus smaller ships, that was the custom at the time, so they created a hybrid of sorts that could beat any frigate it encountered but was fast enough to escape action with the massive man o' wars. I suppose it would be possible to come up with a very specific excuse to justify it in the movie but they didn't so it always rankles me when I watch it.
@@awilk418 Sorry, you may be taken in a bit by US historic bias. Both the Royal Navy and the French Navy had heavy frigates and particularly the French experimented with that and had 40-50 gun frigates in the 1790s.
The very reason why the Royal Navy went with smaller standard 32-38 gun frigates in numbers was because they needed such numbers to address all their naval commitments. The very reason the French throughout the entire 18th and 19th century went with often heavier gunned ships than the British was that they could not match British numbers so tried to built their ships heavier to beat the standard British ship (though given the numbers the British countered that mainly by razeeing bigger ships of the line that were pulled out of the line due to age or as caütires to plug the gap
So France did not only need heavy frigates, it built them first and for similar reasons the US navy did. Obviously the Constitution class frigates represent the pinnacle of heavy frigate design with certain expensive and unique aspects to be the best they can. So obviously that style is unique, however one could have easily adapted it to the British frigate being a smaller frigate running into a French heavy frigate or razee.
Main point: Not just the US had the idea to build ships with something between 40-50 guns and saw an advantage to have a heavy brawler capable to mess up smaller standard frigates
@@mangalores-x_x I spoke badly I admit, I was aware that the concept of a heavy frigate was not original to the US, however I had only ever heard them referred to as deemed not worth it by European powers. Admittedly I am not highly educated on the French naval fleet of the period and I may have made an assumption that they were designed virtually identical to the English fleet at the time and had similar results with the concept. I appreciate the information though. I wish they had just described it as a French heavy frigate built in France in the movie then and not mentioned it being American built at all since that seems much more plausible.
@@awilk418 it was originally to be an American ship, but changed to French because they thought American audiences wouldn’t like it. That’s why it ended up as an American-built frigate in French hands.
The Kongo class battleships were built in Britain for the Japanese navy post-ww I, so this did happen.
A ton of ships were built for other countries and especially in the UK at that time. They built ships for Japan (until Kongo), some for Germany, for the CSA, for Spain, South America... And thats just the capital ships. So "no war ships built for foreign countries" is really far fetched.
Yes, the CSA even fitted them out on sea a few times since the were under a union blockade
And right now there are submarines for Israel being build in Germany (3 additional subs were ordered this week and 6 already build and in Israeli use)
With all due respect, only Kongo herself was built in the UK, she was then sailed to Japan with the blueprints where her three sisters were then built.
Interesting choice of name
Vince, you are one classy man! I daresay your channel will grow and grow 😊
Edit: and Mr Lando of course! Thank you for your insights!
So far, I have been blessed with a very positive community and I am absolutely grateful for it.
@@sailorvince6442 we are all feeling the love!
Love getting some clarification on these things.
So did I, ha ha ha.
Holy shit i actually get to leave the first comment, I was planning on joining the navy in the past and I've always been interested in nautical facts and procedures keep making the great videos and I hope you react to more ship related content. Cheers from Hell!
First comment was Moist
To address the Captain being too friendly, In the books (I dont think they covered it in the movie) He had been busted down from midshipman to serve as a regular seaman for (I believe) womanizing as a young lad. So he also felt that he understood the mind of the regular crew. He also didnt hesitate to have a man flogged when it was needed. I think that man was drunk on duty. So Lucky Jack wasnt seen as a softy except by tyrant officers who flogged at the drop of a hat. I need to re-read the books again.
The sailor was flogged because he deliberately showed disrespect towards that midshipman (who had noticed but not reacted) - this incident was followed by a intense argument between the captain and the surgeon (really worth watching) about discipline and the literal sense of discipline aboard his Majesty's ships.
@@magpie6126 WE DON'T NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR.
Aubrey's rage was palpable, yet his manners are unfaltering.
Great follow up video! You showed admirable maturity *and* turned it into an epic crossover.
1) Wood working skills were essential to the wooden world - the entire ship could be rebuilt and repaired as needed - and they would a pretty deep knowledge and interest in contraction techniques for the ships that were their world. Crewmen made all kinds of models and extremely artistic scrimshaw works - months a sea with a very limited entertainment possibilities made for very skilled model builders and craftsman. 2) American built heavy frigates served as privateers for anybody. US had the wood, and built some of finest heavy frigates in the world - The British West Africa anti slaving squadron was out gunned by the US build slavers. 3) The best captains were not hated or feared by their crews. The brutal ones tended to be unsuccessful - Aubrey is based upon a real life character - Lord Thomas Cochrane - who lived an incredible life. 4) Stephen Maturin was not the official ships doctor, but a spy, naturalists, doctor but was a civilian guest of Aubrey.
The US build slavers definitly didnt outgun the west africa squadron.
The US didnt gave the heavy frigattes to slavers and the slaver didnt use heavy frigattes to transport slaves. In the space one gun takes they could cram 10 or more slaves, so more guns means less profit, total unamerican.
They used clippers build in the US, to outrun the royal navy, one of these clippers, captured by the RN was the most sucsessfull slaver hunter.
Maturin was official the ships doctor, not a guest, Aubrey hired him as his ships doctor
@@wolf310ii That Baltimore Clipper - Black Joke fought heavier armed ships frequently enough, notably Spanish like the Marinerito. West Africa Squadron was very small initially and poorly equipped. There battles against the heavier armed ships made the London papers frequently. Lots of slavers were indeed small and lightly armed, but by no means all. The Surprise had a doctor, Maturin was a friend, a spy, naturalist and scientist - and a much better doctor than the ships one. At least in the books.
@@HankD13 Still, none of the slavers outguned the WAS and none of the ships the HMS Black Joke fought or captured was a heavy frigatte or even a frigatte.
Even the much larger East Indiamen didnt outgun a RN 5th rate frigatte unless they were bought by the RN and rebuild and rearmed as a 4th rate ship.
But if, like you say, the US build lots heavy frigattes for slavers, name only one.
If the slavers could outgun the WAS, they wouldnt need ships that could outrun them and the WAS wouldnt had captured 1600 of them.
In the books Maturin is since the HMS Sophie the offical ships doctor, paid by the RN. Guest didnt get paid.
The "ships doctor" the Surprise already had, was Maturins assistant.
Only on the very first voyage, Maturin was a guest.
I literally re-watched the movie on October 3rd, there’s no such thing as a coincidence ! Thank you very much for this, it’s one of my favorite movie
Btw the title is quite exaggerated, your first video quite good overall, it was based on your experience so don’t say that you were « completely wrong », say that you didn’t have the historical knowledge
One fact about foreign build ships used navys that seems to have been forgotten here: In those days it was common, that ships who had been boarded durring a fight were often taken as prizes (Like the Acheron at theend of the movie) And quiet often those ships were then repaired and taken back into service by the victors. The Brits especially were known to keep French ships in service, as those ships were in most regards very well made and often better sailors than their British counterparts.
So funny. I watched the original video yesterday and I just though, once I have a keyboard, I should comment on some points he mentioned because appears to not be aware of certain details of the historical background. Great to see this follow up.
I am so amused by your excellent video And impressed by your authenticity or something er...anyway. I loved this movie ever since I saw it in the cinema at the best theatre in London at the time. A low key masterpiece of cinema as well as the sea along with Das Boot and The Cruel Sea. Thank You.
The french ship (i don't know how to write it's name) is based on the USS Constitution a big war ship that was build in Boston in the book it was more of a direct reference with being an american ship and all, but in the movie they change the nationality of the ship to make more sense with the french/britan conflict at the time
Acheron. She was a French privateer. Named after one of the five rivers of hades from greek mythology.
In the book it was also a smaller frigatte.
Actually they took very little from the book, mainly the title and the chase of an ship into the pacific to protect the whalers, the majority of the movie is based on the other (20) books.
AFAIK in the book The far side of the World, there is no sea battle, but a land battle, they dot catch up to the ship they chasing until it sinks in a storm
@@herrskeletal3994 The ship as described in the movie is very much a Constitution class frigate.
They grabbed bits and pieces from several different books. Technically the Acheron in the movie would be an American frigate like the Constitution. Those vessels were built of exceptional wood available in North America and to carry a significantly heavier weight of the typical English or French frigate. Basically she could outgun and outlast any other frigate she encountered and out sail the large first rate ships of the line who could crush her.
@@mathiasbartl9393 yes, but the concept of the movie, ie Aubrey chasing a ship, is from the book "Far Side of the World" where Aubrey pursued the fictional smaller frigate USS Norfolk.
"A French warship built in the US? Not likely."
British ship builders: "Uh yeah... we are also definitely not building ships for the Japanese... or Chileans or the Brazilians... move along now."
Funny thing is, right from day 1 of the Articles of Confederation basically, the US has been in the racket of building ships for other nations. Heck even during the US Civil War the Union was still building ships for foreign navies like the Italians, a state of the art ironclad warship that was oddly enough, basically superior to anything the Union or Confederacy had at the time. Only a somewhat recent-ish trend to not be doing that, as opposed to what the US tends to do now, selling old hulls to minor allied nations like Greece. Though the Japanese Government has been wanting to buy some of the aging US 7th Fleet Carriers for a long time.
In addition, at that time, it was common to use captured ships as well.
And they called it out as a privateer repeatedly. They even had a scene dedicated to teaching the audience what a privateer was. These guys get no points for observational skills.
@@Ryvaken Yeah the more I watch this channel the more I notice that tendency.
To be fair to them, it makes sense when you're looking at it in a modern perspective. The tendency that existed in centuries prior to have your navy built by a foreign power is considered almost unthinkable nowadays. Though the trend does continue with the likes of Aircraft, Tanks, Body Armor, Guns, etc. In particular because both Post WW2 and Post Cold War there was such a huge glut of naval vessels that were no longer considered necessary that instead of people contracting the US, British, etc, to build a new ship, well they can just buy one off the back of the old war. Such as the Aregentine Flagship in the Falkland War which was the former USS Phoenix if I remember? Old WW2 cruiser they had bought off America at any point.
It's one of those things that's hard for people to wrap their minds around because it's so bizarrely out of character to the world that they know. Particularly for the French post WW2, where part of their economic plans post war for the recovery was to rebuild and focus on being a creator and exporter of military hardware. From building their own navy back up, to new Tanks, Guns, Planes, etc.
Everything I know abou historical sailing was gathered from the Adventures of Horatio Hornblower. Which is to say, nothing.
They did say in the film that the French ship was a Privateer vessel, so in my opinion, case closed, its highly possible
14:40 "it's quite vague in the movie" whether or not Acheron was a privateer or a naval ship?
From the literal second shot of the movie:
"ADMIRALTY ORDERS to Cpt. J Aubrey
'Intercept French Privateer ACHERON en route to Pacific _INTENT_ _ON_ _CARRYING_ _THE_ _WAR_ _INTO_ _THOSE_ _WATERS_ ... Sink, Burn, or take her a Prize'"
They told us almost first thing in the movie that Acheron is a privateer, there's nothing remotely vague about it.
Also, Jack wasn't chasing the American ship Acheron was analogous to in the book "Master and Commander," he pursued the frigate USS Norfolk in the 10th book "The Far Side of the World".
Saw your first review and saw some of the points corrected in this video (still, I enjoyed your first review though). Seeing that you're doing this clarification video really speaks good about you! Congratulations and continue with the good content!!!!
Wow! Someone made a subsequent video about what they got wrong! I think I have never seen this EVER!
On the subject of the ship being foreign built, it could happen. In the US Civil War the Confederacy had several of its major ships built in other countries. For example the raider, CSS Alabama was built in Britain, armed and commissioned at sea and spent almost two years raiding Union ships and was sunk off of France and never once entered a Confederate port.
If you want an example of the captain leading the boarding party, the best one must be Nelson at Cape St Vincent, whereas captain of HMS Captain, he led the boarding party that captured San Nicolas and then, when San Josef came alongside to render aid, he led the boarding party that captured that ship too.
Nelson also provides the example of the point that staying on your own ship was not necessarily a much safer option.
Both of you guys had an awesome conversation in this video and it's cool learning about everything
Every time I see videos on Master and Commander I want to watch it again. And I've already seen it a billion times!
Add one more to the count ;)
Would add that building warships to be sold to or originally for other countries was not unheard of and would become very common at the 19th century progressed. One big example is Japan, which initially relied heavily on imported ships before their native industry was modernized.
A bit of a nitpick, but the USS America, a ship of the line was built in Maine and given to the French navy. They didn’t like it. Boston was known for making privateers for French entrepreneurs.
I think that the captain and the doctor joined in the boarding because Acheron had such a notable superiority in terms of the size of the crew that they needed every man who could fight to take part in the boarding.
The real HMS Surprise's surgeon took part in the cutting out of the Santa Cecilia (formerly HMS Hermione). He was right alongside Captain Edward Hamilton in the thick of the action on deck.
By the way, in the previous video you mentioned the incoherent set of signal flags flying by the ship when she lays in the doldrums. I've seen an explanation from one of the film crew members, that the idea is that the flag become wet in the lockers due to high humidity and were hang out to dry.
Thanks for your reviews.
Dry out the flags is a side effect, they set every cloth they had to catch even the slightest gust of wind to get out of the doldrums.
Sailing after another ship, especially in the middle latitudes, two ships would be sailing pretty much as the same speed, depending on the size of each ship, the way it was rigged, how long it had been at sea and the quality of the crew. A smaller ship could usually outpace a larger ship unless it was in heavy seas. A ship of the line was huge but relatively slow, whereas a frigate was faster. But in heavy seas the frigate might actually be slower as the impact of the current affected it more. Another factor would be the condition of the hull...a ship which had been at sea longer would be significantly slower due to marine growth on the hull which would increase drag. But if one ship is near the horizon and the winds are light, the difference in speeds could be a quarter of a knot...at long distances it takes a long time to make up that distance. At Trafalgar for example, the two fleets sighted one another shortly after 5 am. The Spanish/French commander was not able to see the entire British fleet until 11....and the first shot was fired by the French at long range almost precisely at noon. So Nelson, with the current, the wind and the direction of both fleets in his favor took over six hours to get into combat range.
There is an interesting book about food on ships of that time by the title "Feeding Nelson's Navy" by Janet McDonald. Highly informative and well written.
Desolation Island by Patrick O'Brian has a brilliant chase and blew my reading mind. It was my first POB book and after reading various formulaic fiction. It was so freshing. I know the scene is based on actual naval history.
I recomed you to watch "The terror" from the historybuffs channel, is a really good video about the chillin story of the erebus and the terror two ships that went missing during a expedition to find the northen passage
I second this. Probably his best work. He’s a good storyteller and it is a darn good store.
Absolutely, it's on the list.
@@sailorvince6442 the guy has a video of master and commander too
Watch the actual show, it's on Hulu
For a station bill for boarding, for action in battalion etc, you could look at INSTALLATION DES VAISSEAUX, Missiessy, Edouard Burges, Imprimerie de la République, Paris, 1797 - which covers a multitude of task organisations for a typical 74 gun ship. A frigate is organised similarly, but has fewer crew and fewer guns, on a single main battery, plus supplemental gaillard pieces
Nelson attacked and captured three Spanish ships in one engagement, leading the boarding parties. If a Captain had a reliable junior officer to maintain his own vessel, the Captain might lead an attack.
The old Nelson's Bridge
@@cleverusername9369Possibly the only example in Naval history?
Nigel (the man in the movie building the model) IS a master carpenter! His rank is stated as carpenters mate later, an NGO, and thus a trained carpenter.
He was probably not a master, but a journeyman. But still a fully trained carpenter.
Just one comment. About the sailor who made model of the ship, they might have been ship model hobbyist.
He's the same carpenter who restored the figurehead, so he's skilled in fine work.
About the Acheron being built in America but sailing for the French, it's entirely possible that the ship could have changed hands by being captured. It was a common practice to put captured ships into your own service. If a ship was captured in a battle, it would likely need costly repairs, but capturing could also take place at the port, as was the case in the bombing of Copenhagen.
Exactly. Like the USS Delaware, which was captured by the Royal Navy and taken into service as a sixth rate.
For historical stuff like this I highly recommend a RUclips called drachinifel, he really knows his stuff from age of sail upto the end of ww2
Two well educated men talking on the subject that interests me? Thank you so much, it’s delicious
It's possible the Acheron was a US built ship which was captured and brought into French service. By the end of the Napoleonic Wars a significant amount of the Royal Navy were captured Dutch, Danish, French or Spanish vessels which were not so damaged so they could be added to the British navy.
That would work if the French had ever been at war with the USA.
Pressing captured vessels into service was done by all of the major naval powers of the Napoleonic period. Several ships exchanged hands more than once. HMS Speedy, for example, was captured by the French and then recaptured and then captured again by the French. The second time occurred whilst she was under the command of Thomas Cochrane on whom Jack Aubry is based. In the novels, Speedy is the model for his first ship - HMS Sophie.
So in other words -- what all the people posting to the previous video said.
It was interesting to hear a mariner refer to ships as boats, and different decks as different floors.
Also, I spent a bit of time at sea in the U.S. Navy and it had its fun and interesting moments, but didn't feel connected to the sea or naval history until I learned to sail. That's something you might want to consider.
The ruse from The Chase scene (using a decoy) was in a book called, ‘Secret Sea’ by Robb White, but in that case, it was to fool an enemy ship which had radar. The book was written in the 50s or 60s.
in the novels the doctor is no mere doctor, among other things he is a practised swordsman bc he fought duels as a pastime in his youth. he is definitely a fictional swashbuckler of a doctor, for all love.
So question for Vince, if you saw a possible iceberg in foggy weather, would you call out a course correction or check with the captain first? (Maybe that makes that scene more relevant).
On the issue with the ship model, I can't recall if the sailor was a carpenters mate, which would have made him more knowledgeable about ship construction. As far as commanding a vessel, if something happens to the captain depending on the number of Lieutenant's or Senior midshipman, they would commonly take command, especially in prize ships
The Dr in the boarding action. The book Dr is noted to be an excellent swordsman and shot.
in the books the doctor is a fairly well known duellist and also a spy when not at sea
He very well could have been a master carpenter. Remember, navies of the the time were notorious for pressing tradesmen into service.
I may be a bit late, but concerning the problems with the ship replica and if the ship could be made in Boston for the french, I have my two cents to give.
First the replica: Willy, the blonde guy, was in Boston during peace time, for his marriage. First that narrows it down to 9 years between the end of the War of Independence (1783) and the start of the napoleonic wars (1792). In that time it was not unusual for the british husband-to-be to stay quite a while, even years. He also had to work to earn money. And since his wife's second cousin worked in the Boston docks and he was a sailing master's mate, it is not inconceivable that he also worked on the Archeron.
As for the building of the replica, the dark haired fella with the blue jacket is the carpenter's mate. So of course he had both the tools and raw materials as well as the abiity to put together this model.
Also, in the following scene, where Aubrey shows the replica to the other officers, they are mostly commenting about the number of cannonports and the quality of the vertical hull reinforcements (I don't know the english term, sorry). That is clearly something an interested sailor could notice.
As for a french ship being built in the US. You have to remember, that France and the USA were closely allied during that time. France had supported american independence with ships and troops. It was totally normal for american shipbuilders to be commissioned to build ships for the french. Especially since the american shipbuilders had large amounts of huge oak trees at their disposal, while french shipbuilders either had to import the precious wood or use cheaper materials.
Also, the Archeron is mentioned in the beginning of the movie, to be a privateer. These were in that time often privately funded (though that practise was mostly done by the english) or semi-privately. The latter meant that the french navy gave some officers leave to hire with such privateering contracts. That way, the french government could hope to have a thorough assessment of goods plundered, so they could tax them correctly. After all, the captain and other officers were in fact french naval officers.
But even without that privateering distinction, it is quite plausible for the french to have their ships built by an ally, who made better ships.
You would shoot an albatross, Vince? I thought it was considered a bird of good omen (at least, if the rime of the ancient mariner is to be believed).
In the beginning of the film you can see in the admiralty orders that Acheron is a privateer and not a navy ship.
i don't know about Napoleonic times but on the run up to WW1 the UK was making warships for other nations. but during the age of sail it was common for ships that were captured to be taken into the fleet
Merchants would carry at least one cannon per side as it was a common signaling device. (Lets say you're being attacked by a pirate and want other ships nearby to notice you and come help. A great way to do this is to shoot off a cannon. Everyones head turns and thinks "What was that"?
There were also pre-arranged signals with thinks like port authorities and other ships using cannon shots. (Fire 3 cannon shots away from the port in 5 minutes outside the port and we will send an inspector and pilot to you by boat" or something)
I always assumed the French ship was built in Boston as part of repayment for France's help with the American revolution.
I think the film just gets away with giving the doctor a fight scene.
It's made clear that he follows the impetuous one armed midshipman to protect him when he leads an unexpected boarding action.
The French had several US built ships - importantly the La America (74). They didn't have a 'United States' class frigate of 24s or even a large frigate of 18s like the Chesapeake, but there were other types. The French tended to build to their own design standards ~ which were appreciated (if modified) by the British, who captured a lot, revising hold arrangements and bulwarks to suit their preferences and needs.
The original story has a US frigate of (presumably) 12s The 'Norfolk' which is supposed to approximate the Frigate Essex (by 1810 re-armed with 32pdr carronades as a significant improvement in firepower at the line of metal range, and even more at the 'line of metal ranges with reduced charges/double shot...) and her successful (if truncated) raid on British Whaling ships in the Pacific - while Surprise is armed with either 9pdr guns (or maybe also with 32pdr carronades - the ex l'Unite had been scrapped in 1802, but similar ship sloops with 9pdr guns had shifted to carronade armament by the 1812 war - see Cherub, Levant and Cyane for three example classes of 6 or 9pdr classes significantly upgunned)
Some perspective from a US Naval Academy grad and former active duty USMC artillery officer. When Midshipmen Callamy and Hollom are discussing what to do, Hollom was being indecisive. This is a BIG, BIG, BIG leadership failing in any well-run and respectable naval service. He was serving as officer of the watch. US Navy and Royal Navy captains, then and now, expect their officers of the watch to make certain decisions within the authority granted to them as OOW. This would include calling the warship to quarters in the event of danger from another warship or nautical hazard. In the US Navy (and Royal Navy I'm certain as well), you are constantly reminded that a good decision now is better than the perfect decision later. The reality of naval and military service is that you rarely, almost never, have all the information you need or want to make logically perfect decisions. Instead, information comes to you in degrees over time at infrequent intervals. You use what information you have and at some point make a decision to act, period. It was Callamy (the younger and less experienced of the two midshipmen) who ordered "Beat to quarters". This was the correct call given what happened moments later. But Hollom was being indecisive and such indecisiveness could have made the bad outcome in the first fight FAR more serious, if not fatal. It's also a major difference in the two characters' development in the story. Hollom is out of his depth as a young, aspiring naval officer and struggles to gain respect from this fellow midshipmen and superior officers. That's why he tries to insinuate himself with the crew despite a very strict hierarchy that doesn't allow such fraternization. Eventually Hollom finds himself disrespected by the sailors and so depressed and lonely that he commits suicide. Callamy, on the other hand, is (or was) a fine young man demonstrating potential to be an excellent naval officer. Aubrey recognized his leadership qualities and could see the enlisted sailors respected young Callamy enough to follow him into a desperate life-or-death fight. Unfortunately for Callamy, his promotion to lead a boarding party and his leading from the front (as he should) gets him killed.
My favorite movie of all time
It is indeed a great movie!
I know they'd have hard-tack, corned beef, salted pork, sauerkraut, maybe some pickled vegetables, limes or lime juice, wine, small beers or harder? Rum- I'm assuming the grog was mixed aboard- probably with stale water? What else would they have stocked?
About the model. "Exactly accurate?" Well, compared to bluff-bowed shipping, a sharp-bowed ship of war might well have been noticed and described to the model maker. I've walked around the Constellation (a fast Civil War frigate) in dry dock, and the sharpness of the bow was quite dramatic: the leading edge of the stem was sided to 4", and streamlined beyond that. Of course, since this is a fiction based on a fiction, it would be interesting to see what O'Brian wrote of that scene.
Acheron is also modeled on the Constitution-class frigates which were remarkably heavily built for their size and speed, and if he'd seen her frames they would have appeared distinctive and memorable.
Typical supplies were 4 mo water (plus Beer and Wine or Spirits), but 6 mo of bread, salt pork and salt beef, raisins, suet, pease etc. Fresh produce lasted less well so was consumed in the first weeks of the voyage - with milk and eggs from goats or hens - until they find their way to table or die from disease. French ships with larger crews and less compact hold arrangements (on a slightly larger hull) typically stowed for 3 mo/5mo.instead.
21:05 Seagull control
hunting albatross with anything but a crossbow is considered bad form
"the rhyme of the ancient mariner" provides some background information on hunting albatross and the possible consequences
Her Majesty ship "Surprise" was a post-ship and a privateer (The Quasi-War with France 1798 - 1801), thats why they were able to maintain at sea for a such long time. Usa and France had very tight relationsand were alies (Treaty of Alliance and the Treaty of Amity and Commerce on February 6, 1778.) , AAAAAAnd the cool thing is Frigate "Acheron" was modeled after frigate USS "Constitution" which was built at Edmund Hartt's shipyard in the North End of Boston, Massachusetts.
14:26 what about captured ships? Several French built ships ended up serving in the British Navy after being captured. Not that I'd expect a USA ship to be captured by France since they weren't at war as far as I can remember. But it might be a factor to consider.
Indeed, according to the book the Surprise herself was captured from the French.
Not sure if you heard, but another thing merchants did to scare away threats at the time would be to paint logs black and make them look like cannons, as another reason they could get away with that look.
An important contextual point is that England was at war and its a warshi, so operationally things would be different from normal ships or peacetime situations.
Its a very good movie I was under impression they did a good job with sailing history
The ship mockup creator in the movie might have photographic memory and just be very good with his hands, or have some sort of savant-thing going with forms and such.
I figured he spent some time in Boston, as it was noted in the movie he was there for his wedding, and might have observed her being built over many days or even weeks. If he'd had a room overlooking the shipyard, he might have even sketched her.
The movie is very accurate, and the O'Brian books are EXTREMELY accurate (and super researched - compiled with the help of numerous naval historians and from hundreds of actual historical log books and battle logs from past naval skirmishes). The O'Brian books are great, but before reading, familiarize yourself with age of sail/british naval terminology. The author makes a VERY authentic setting/story/dialogue, so there is no coddling; you have to figure the terminology out on your own, and he does not hold back from speaking with all the complexities that experts of the time would. but the authenticity really makes the stories feel super real, if you can adapt to the language of the time/setting. the culture of the european age is well described, not just naval culture but also social and military cultures, on land and water, for those times (as well as social tensions and politics). but seriously, it's not a read for casual readers; educate yourself before starting or you'll regret it and not enjoy what is a truly masterful series of novels.
The Aubrey/Maturin are the best seafaring books you are likely to find. And you wil want to reread them. Aubrey is based on the real life figure of Admiral Thomas Cochrane. He lived long enough for there to be an actual photograph of him in his old age.
Also, having been to a whaling station in the late 1960’s I can attest to the stench which is so powerful it practically has a physical body. Also, the utter grumsomness of the process. But where else would you take a nine year old for an afternoon out?
The French built excellent ships...it was the inability of the French to attain the skill of the British crews, which were almost constantly at sea while the French were on average bottled up in ports. The British LOVED to take French built vessels into British service.
Would like to see you review the TV series Hornblower.
12:25 There was a text saying "a French privateer".
25:00 I'd recomment reading Moby Dick ...
Not to dispute anything that has been said, but regarding the "needlessly elaborate" repainting of the Surprise to fool the Acheron, is it possible that Aubrey does not want to take the chance of the French seeing through the deception?
The Acheron, by this point, has successfully ambushed them once, almost caught up with them and the British plan relies on them getting at point blank range to succeed.
Given those circumstances, is it conveivable that Aubrey have gone to such lengths to disguise his ship given the risks if the plan failed?
Archeron being a privateer ship is literally made clear in the opening scene of the movie.
Fascinating video.
How can I contact you to ask you a navigation question? :)
Even in the XX Century it was quite usual to have warships built in another country. The British yards built a lot of warships for other navies, like Brazil, Argentina, Japan, etc...
The Japanese warships that defeated the Russian Navy in Tsushima were built in the UK and US!
Way to collaborate!
The doctor joining in the boarding is actually a bow to the books, where Stephen Maturin ist not only a doctor and scientist, but also an English spy and an excellent sword fighter and shot.
Refer to my response to your first video, you appear to have ignored it. Regarding the doctor joining the fight. The Acheron cannon fire had blown a hole in the hull and the French were entering the ship. So do you think the doctor should have sat and watched?? also, if there was a clergyman aboard he would have joined in the fighting also, particularly on a small frigate like Surprise!
Since Aubrey was based on Sir Thomas Cochran check his exploits and history!
The idea that a sailor could make a good model of a ship isn't unusual, they did it all the time. But there are two issues here. To make a model of the shape of a ship, one would have to see the ship out of the water, or a similar or sister ship at least. The real issue here is the scantlings, how bulky and closely spaced the futtocks, or frames, were under the planking, and to a lesser extent, how thick the planks were and what species of wood was used in each case. This would have been obvious at a glance. If you have beefy futtocks spaced every 30 mm on center, then that makes a much stronger boat than if the frames were smaller in dimensions and spaced 60 mm on center. To see that difference one would only have to spend a few minutes below, though of course planking thickness might not be that obvious, unless one of the sailors mentioned it to a visitor. the USS Constitution was a famous example of a very heavily built ship 'old ironsides' which was kind of what O'Brian was referencing here. Supplies of good timber would obviously have played a part in how heavy a ship could have been built, also cost, and a lighter ship would generally sail better, so there were many variables. there is also the fact that this time was sort of the infancy of technical and standardized naval architecture, and the first books on the subject were published by France around this time;.
I particularly love the Brazillian guy speaking Spanish (or what the heck he was speaking).
Portuguese
Quite common in the British navy, using captured French and Spanish ships. Not so much the other way around.
Funny enough at the end of the movie the Acheron is an American ship under english command.
Herman Melville explains the entire process of hunting, killing and processing whales in "Moby Dick."
For the whaling. Burning some oily rags would serve. They just want to "appear" to be a whaler.