I have found myself gravitating towards mid-19th century firearms as something far more interesting than modern ones. The variety of guns available just from the 1860s is unreal. With muzzle loading smoothbore guns right next to cartridge firing rifles. Awesome video and excellent quality!
The old black powder Victorian era rifles have so much character. They were still figuring things out, and the fact that they don’t quite work perfectly adds a certain charm. Modern guns are kind of boring in comparison.
The barrels would likely be plugged or replaced and bolts could probably be modified to a center fire bolt. I would definitely have been an incredibly modern rifle if this happened
The barrels would likely be plugged or replaced and bolts could probably be modified to a center fire bolt. I would definitely have been an incredibly modern rifle if this happened
@@muffinman3111 oh yeah of course! 🤦♂️ duh. Yeah a touch hole right by the chamber would be a great holdover wouldn’t it 😂. That was a blank moment by my brain
Ever since I read about this design, I was hoping someone would video a demonstration of it! A rather ingenious solution to the concerns leveled against other non-metallic cartridge breechloaders of the day. I think that it's interesting that the first people to test it said it worked flawlessly... and the next guy said that it was horrendously unsafe... and your testing shows that little to no gas escapes... goes to show that Greene and Lancaster didn't pay off the right guys lol.
This is an excellent video, showing the ammo loading sequence. I fortunately own a Greene rifle in near mint condition, that I’ve owned for over 40 years.
Saw this rifle at the Gettysburg museum. I would humbly call myself a firearms aficionado, so I was surprised that I’d never seen or heard of it. I want one now! Good video!
I have been around all sorts of Firearms all my life, and never came across this Rifle. What a fascinating piece of history! Thank you so much for sharing with us!
@@papercartridges6705 We are all learning from each other at this point in time, trying to piece together the Greene story among other tales. Everyone has a somewhat different perspective and access to different research material. Hard to fathom that this blessed event started over 160 years ago !
Among other things, the 17th Infantry regimental crest has a wall (white brick rather than the accurate irregular stone) of Fredericksburg; along with the symbol for the 5th Corps. We call ourselves the Buffalos because William (Wild Bill) Quinn was the commander during the Korean War. I still have my custom made Buffalo 'nickel' that I earned at the Regimental Mess by drinking a glass of flaming brandy and catching the 'nickel' in my mouth. (Advice: lean back to avoid the part of the liquor which is on fire.) P.S. Even the M-16 has locking-lugs, though in a very different design that I hated to clean. I'll take a M-14 any day!
One of the patent drawings shown was in Russian, so there's more to this story than just the US Army. After the Civil War, did Greene or Lancaster (or their agents) travel Europe to pitch the rifle to other armies? Obviously, it didn't work out if they did since the capping breach-loader was on the way out fast, but still there's an epilogue here. Any recommendations for further reading on the Greene rifle?
Greene’s company sold about 3000 rifles to Russia before the Civil War, as a private business venture. There’s very little evidence of what the Russians did with them or used them for, unfortunately.
@@papercartridges6705 Of the 3,000 purchased, Greene delivered only 2,100. Those rifles were tested in a few rifle battalions, few dragoon regiments and in one cossack regiment. Finally, they were deemed unsuitable for military purposes. A few rifles have survived and are in Russian museums.
This rifle is freaking awesome from just the few minutes I've known about it. The only thing I don't like is the buttin and under hammer, but ai understand the need for them the way they are. I need to find one of these now to add to my muzzleloader collection.
Those lancaster oval bores are an interesting footnote in firearms history. Gas leakage seemed to be nail in the coffin for tbis gun, but i winder if a sufficient wad behind the bulket coyld be worked out to provide an adequate seal. If so, and swaping to a traditional lands and groove bore, this seemed to be a very smart step in a perfected paper cartridge rifle.
What an absolutely fascinating piece--thank you very much for sharing. While its advanced features cannot but be admired, and the gas escape issue notwithstanding, I think that the complicated loading procedure would have made this rifle problematic for most regular CW troops. Some of them already had trouble learning to use far simpler designs, and with the Greene rifle it seems as though it would be easy to mess up the loading procedure under stress.
How does the Calisher & Terry fit into this (Pat April 1855)? I mean I'm sure one would have been doging the other's patent, and if you squint sideways at them, apart from the hammers, the only real difference is one (Greene) has bullet obturation with the nifty little built in rammer that needs, and the other (C&T) has better gas containment in compensation for lacking the Greene/Lancaster the obturation.
Being used to modern firearms I can see myself messing that up. Basically the cartridges go in backwards. With muscle memory I can see myself putting the cartridge in forward. This would cause a huge problem. However it is a very cool design. I imagine you could get a lot more shots off than other rifles of that era.
Ingenious idea...with the loading...your mad minute is skewed as a soldier would be loading from pouches on their person, not from a table. I'd estimate that a soldier could only get off three, maybe four shots loading from pouches.
There is mention of their use in battle at Antietam, purportedly by Massachusetts troops. Thus far I haven't been able to come up with other accounts of the Greene being employed in combat or encountered any firsthand accounts from common soldiers of being armed with the Greene during a fight, or their impressions regarding its utility upon loading/firing one.
Supposedly they have dug up Greene bullets at Antietam also. I think it must have been a very small number of Massachusetts state troops with them. The Ordnance Department tested them and was initially very interested, but after further tests, were not impressed.
Great work Bret. To see the fight against muscle memory only reinforces the idea of combining the percussion cap and cartridge which was the key to the fire rate of the Dreyse some years before as a standard infantry rifle. How did the fouling behave in the breech with Green’s system?
Is the center of the bolt only freed to push the sealing ball forward when the hammer is down? Just curious as to how the "fire, unlock, ram ball, pull bolt open, ram new cartridge, lock bolt" sequence is effected in such manner that you're not just whaffing the central push rod back & forth while the bolt body stays in place?
I wonder if overly expanding bullet problem from russian trials could be solved with use of terry carbine cartridges. Basically same cartridge but without a second bullet. Would wads alone be enough to stop escaping gases ?
It’s possible to load the cartridge backwards but it won’t fire, since the percussion cap vent would be located underneath the bullet and wad. You’d have to use the cleaning rod to knock the bullets and cartridges out of the chamber if that happened.
@Paper Cartridges - Another outstanding informative video!! I’m subscribed now and will be spending the weekend diving into more of your content. Regarding the Greene Rifle: It seems if Greene had incorporated a flange on the bolt near the back of the locking lugs, much/most of the rearward gas would have been deflected and no more an issue than the nipple on an 1855 or 1861 Springfield…. Another weakness, surely, is the bottom hammer. Caps falling off the nipple due to gravity, and worse, the exit of scorching gas towards the support hand (I noticed you had quite a black mark on the heal of your left hand) is ‘inconvenient’ to say the least. Both of those mechanical issues could have been overcome with small redesigns. If I may trouble you for minutiae? What was weight and diameter of bullets, and how many grains of black powder?
70 grains of powder and a 450 grain bullet. This is my best guess since there’s very little data on the actual load, but the powder charge has to be big enough to fill the chamber up to the flash hole.
No, because in 1861 it was still something of a Prussian state secret (although other countries knew about them and had obtained examples), and nobody really had any idea how well they would work in war.
Complex now Yes? The Day NO! after the 1st load looks rather FAST!! from concealment! I would BET more than One Riflemen used the next load to charge and seat the last ball? Not such a fan of a cap so close to a wrist but maybe better than a face? I bet the flash away from face was an Accuracy Boom, less flinch and Open eyes! Just think how fiddley flint IS! I would Wager the downfall of this riffle was the changes in manufacturing needed, while considering the manufacturing had just got set for the New Cap lock long guns. So basically cost, time, and needs did not line up in the eyes of those who held the purse strings. What a Treasure you Have!! Keep those Smoke Poles SMOKING!
So having fired from an empty chamber you are, ultimately, left with a loaded rifle ... but with no powder behind it(!) How do you 'unload' - ram it back & out?
Sorry? Presumably, if Greene just patented Lancaster's 'Oval Bore' in the States, the latter too would have had locking lugs - making them (if not copied from elsewhere) Lancaster's idea.
@@papercartridges6705 Thanks. another question. probably 60 years ago I saw another underhammer rifle and wondered then: do caps ever fall off? (I know they are a press fit - I have a Civil War Manhattan and I once had a replica C&B Colt.) but....
Unfortunately not really. The closest we have is probably Volume 2 of the Round Ball to Rimfire series, which has several pages of the Ordnance correspondence and the most details about the cartridge and bullets.
Perhaps… many were sold to Russia and they often provided obsolescent arms to countries aligned to them… the Berdan rifles to Ethiopia being one example.
Honestly find the reverse facing cartridge kind of pointless. Just feels like it would of functioned without that taking out an unnecessary feature of the rifle. Making it cheaper, easier to use, and generally faster firing. That extra step just looks so off. That and the location of the percussion cap, I can bet a lot of blood blisters were caused by it's hammer.
Really interesting concept. That is a gun I would be interested in if it would be made as a replica. Firing the original always seems somehow wrong to me. However thanks for showcasing it.
There is some evidence that Massachusetts troops may have used them at Antietam. Bullets have been dug up from the battlefield. This is the only potentially documented combat use.
As a Line Rats weapon, definitely not. Too complicated. As as designated marksman's weapon, with a little bit of development it could have been devastating.
Hi sir, this is Henry Karla from a hunting accessories brand. I am attracted by your performance in YTB and sincerely invite you to work together. We can sponsor your videos. If you are interested, please leave me your email. Then I will send you some products to see. Looking forward to your early reply.
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The true genius behind the design is the soldier's ability to load and fire from a prone position
I have found myself gravitating towards mid-19th century firearms as something far more interesting than modern ones. The variety of guns available just from the 1860s is unreal. With muzzle loading smoothbore guns right next to cartridge firing rifles. Awesome video and excellent quality!
The old black powder Victorian era rifles have so much character. They were still figuring things out, and the fact that they don’t quite work perfectly adds a certain charm. Modern guns are kind of boring in comparison.
Can't disagree! If firearms of the past 50 years were the only ones about I'd have far less interest!
@@papercartridges6705 Agreed! Love the video by the way, always wanted a Greene and been waiting for someone to put up a video on it for a long time!
Can you imagine the later cartridge conversion systems if the US army had adopted these for general issue?
The barrels would likely be plugged or replaced and bolts could probably be modified to a center fire bolt. I would definitely have been an incredibly modern rifle if this happened
The barrels would likely be plugged or replaced and bolts could probably be modified to a center fire bolt. I would definitely have been an incredibly modern rifle if this happened
@@muffinman3111 when you say plugged do you mean sleeved? As in to attain a smaller caliber?
@@minisforerbody plug the touch hole, but I imagine they would have been sleeved to fit something similar to 50/70
@@muffinman3111 oh yeah of course! 🤦♂️ duh. Yeah a touch hole right by the chamber would be a great holdover wouldn’t it 😂. That was a blank moment by my brain
Ever since I read about this design, I was hoping someone would video a demonstration of it! A rather ingenious solution to the concerns leveled against other non-metallic cartridge breechloaders of the day. I think that it's interesting that the first people to test it said it worked flawlessly... and the next guy said that it was horrendously unsafe... and your testing shows that little to no gas escapes... goes to show that Greene and Lancaster didn't pay off the right guys lol.
Or that the military is a horrendously fickle organization that hates to change
Learned something new today...pedrosoli to the drawing boards...
The second I saw that it was a bolt action my first thought was…. “ I WANT IT!”.
Now I don’t feel bad shooting my commission rifle with a union Kepi.
Fascinating. Must watch for any antique firearm enthusiast.
This is an excellent video, showing the ammo loading sequence. I fortunately own a Greene rifle in near mint condition, that I’ve owned for over 40 years.
This is very interesting- I’d never heard of the Greene Rifle - fascinating, thank you Brett for bringing this to us. Ian ( Suffolk ,Old England)
Saw this rifle at the Gettysburg museum. I would humbly call myself a firearms aficionado, so I was surprised that I’d never seen or heard of it. I want one now! Good video!
Fascinating! The ram idea is interesting but I can see how it didn’t take off.
Oh well! At least several hundred saw action at Antietam.
Why didn't this pop up on my feed a year ago? I hope Uberti or Pietta saw this.
I have been around all sorts of Firearms all my life, and never came across this Rifle. What a fascinating piece of history! Thank you so much for sharing with us!
What a fascinating rifle. Never heard of it before.
First thorough video on this rifles operation, we have one in the family and I’ve wondered for years how it works
Lovely. There is something pleasing about under hammer rifles. Perhaps somebody will make a replica one day?
There's a company that makes them in polymer and stainless only (for now) but I can't think of the name right now for nothing.
@@wizardofahhhs759 Thanks.
Thank you Sir, for this very in-depth explanation of such an innovative rifle. Greene surely was an original thinker. Best regards...Doc
Glad you enjoyed it. I have also found your video on the Greene (and others) very fascinating!
@@papercartridges6705 We are all learning from each other at this point in time, trying to piece together the Greene story among other tales. Everyone has a somewhat different perspective and access to different research material. Hard to fathom that this blessed event started over 160 years ago !
Among other things, the 17th Infantry regimental crest has a wall (white brick rather than the accurate irregular stone) of Fredericksburg; along with the symbol for the 5th Corps. We call ourselves the Buffalos because William (Wild Bill) Quinn was the commander during the Korean War. I still have my custom made Buffalo 'nickel' that I earned at the Regimental Mess by drinking a glass of flaming brandy and catching the 'nickel' in my mouth. (Advice: lean back to avoid the part of the liquor which is on fire.) P.S. Even the M-16 has locking-lugs, though in a very different design that I hated to clean. I'll take a M-14 any day!
Good to see you still making quality content. Keep up the good work
That's some really good information, I had heard of it, but never saw one. Thank you, these videos are a treasure trove.
Truly cool! You were right: I was totally unfamiliar with this rifle before today. Thanks for your video!
One of the patent drawings shown was in Russian, so there's more to this story than just the US Army. After the Civil War, did Greene or Lancaster (or their agents) travel Europe to pitch the rifle to other armies? Obviously, it didn't work out if they did since the capping breach-loader was on the way out fast, but still there's an epilogue here. Any recommendations for further reading on the Greene rifle?
Greene’s company sold about 3000 rifles to Russia before the Civil War, as a private business venture. There’s very little evidence of what the Russians did with them or used them for, unfortunately.
@@papercartridges6705I bet Cavalry or Dragoons used them. Seems like the sort of thing a guy on horseback could take advantage of the most.
@@papercartridges6705 Of the 3,000 purchased, Greene delivered only 2,100. Those rifles were tested in a few rifle battalions, few dragoon regiments and in one cossack regiment. Finally, they were deemed unsuitable for military purposes. A few rifles have survived and are in Russian museums.
This is awesome. I had never heard of this rifle.
Very informative video. I had no idea that the Greene rifle existed.
Very informative video.Thank you very much!
Very interesting!
"Damn kids with their ARs." Exactly what I experience at my club. :)
That thing is crazy ingenious and I love it.
This rifle is freaking awesome from just the few minutes I've known about it. The only thing I don't like is the buttin and under hammer, but ai understand the need for them the way they are. I need to find one of these now to add to my muzzleloader collection.
Even a modern reproduction would be nice...
Those lancaster oval bores are an interesting footnote in firearms history. Gas leakage seemed to be nail in the coffin for tbis gun, but i winder if a sufficient wad behind the bulket coyld be worked out to provide an adequate seal. If so, and swaping to a traditional lands and groove bore, this seemed to be a very smart step in a perfected paper cartridge rifle.
There was a french rifle I think in 1852 that had locking lugs so not sure if this was the first. Might have one gun that had it even before these
What a really cool rifle the Greene rifle is.. 👍👍
What an absolutely fascinating piece--thank you very much for sharing. While its advanced features cannot but be admired, and the gas escape issue notwithstanding, I think that the complicated loading procedure would have made this rifle problematic for most regular CW troops. Some of them already had trouble learning to use far simpler designs, and with the Greene rifle it seems as though it would be easy to mess up the loading procedure under stress.
Would've liked to see the targets, what a great piece of history.
So weird, but totally ingenious!
Outstanding! Thank you Brett.
Lucky lucky to get your hands on such a cool and interesting firearm.
How does the Calisher & Terry fit into this (Pat April 1855)? I mean I'm sure one would have been doging the other's patent, and if you squint sideways at them, apart from the hammers, the only real difference is one (Greene) has bullet obturation with the nifty little built in rammer that needs, and the other (C&T) has better gas containment in compensation for lacking the Greene/Lancaster the obturation.
I have never heard of this rifle. Very interesting!
Good video, thanks
Being used to modern firearms I can see myself messing that up. Basically the cartridges go in backwards. With muscle memory I can see myself putting the cartridge in forward. This would cause a huge problem. However it is a very cool design. I imagine you could get a lot more shots off than other rifles of that era.
Ingenious idea...with the loading...your mad minute is skewed as a soldier would be loading from pouches on their person, not from a table. I'd estimate that a soldier could only get off three, maybe four shots loading from pouches.
Good memories.
very interesting mechanism
There is mention of their use in battle at Antietam, purportedly by Massachusetts troops. Thus far I haven't been able to come up with other accounts of the Greene being employed in combat or encountered any firsthand accounts from common soldiers of being armed with the Greene during a fight, or their impressions regarding its utility upon loading/firing one.
Supposedly they have dug up Greene bullets at Antietam also. I think it must have been a very small number of Massachusetts state troops with them. The Ordnance Department tested them and was initially very interested, but after further tests, were not impressed.
Hi. Could there be a chance for miss fire that gun? I mean after reloading both loads go off.
Love your videos..keep up the great work. One suggestion: please get a better microphone.. it's hard to hear you sometimes.
I’ve upgraded to a better microphone in my newer videos. Much better! My older videos are pretty bad.
Very interesting! Now I want one!
Very Cool Rifle & Video...
Great work Bret. To see the fight against muscle memory only reinforces the idea of combining the percussion cap and cartridge which was the key to the fire rate of the Dreyse some years before as a standard infantry rifle. How did the fouling behave in the breech with Green’s system?
Is the center of the bolt only freed to push the sealing ball forward when the hammer is down? Just curious as to how the "fire, unlock, ram ball, pull bolt open, ram new cartridge, lock bolt" sequence is effected in such manner that you're not just whaffing the central push rod back & forth while the bolt body stays in place?
Basically caseless ammunition. No ejector needed.
Arguably, most of the ammunition used in muzzleloaders are probably caseless.
I wonder if overly expanding bullet problem from russian trials could be solved with use of terry carbine cartridges. Basically same cartridge but without a second bullet.
Would wads alone be enough to stop escaping gases ?
Impressive!
So cool man!!! 😎
What happens if you put the powder charge in backwards? Is that even possible?
It’s possible to load the cartridge backwards but it won’t fire, since the percussion cap vent would be located underneath the bullet and wad. You’d have to use the cleaning rod to knock the bullets and cartridges out of the chamber if that happened.
That is Really kool Brett. New old one for me as well. You don’t get cap shrapnel in the skin of your wrist?
Interesting channel with way too few views. Great content! This is my gift to the god of YT algorithm.
Was there anything to keep a soldier from loading multiple cartidges before fireing during the heat of battle?
amazing
Super!!!!!!!!Thenk you!!!!!
@Paper Cartridges - Another outstanding informative video!! I’m subscribed now and will be spending the weekend diving into more of your content. Regarding the Greene Rifle: It seems if Greene had incorporated a flange on the bolt near the back of the locking lugs, much/most of the rearward gas would have been deflected and no more an issue than the nipple on an 1855 or 1861 Springfield…. Another weakness, surely, is the bottom hammer. Caps falling off the nipple due to gravity, and worse, the exit of scorching gas towards the support hand (I noticed you had quite a black mark on the heal of your left hand) is ‘inconvenient’ to say the least. Both of those mechanical issues could have been overcome with small redesigns.
If I may trouble you for minutiae? What was weight and diameter of bullets, and how many grains of black powder?
70 grains of powder and a 450 grain bullet. This is my best guess since there’s very little data on the actual load, but the powder charge has to be big enough to fill the chamber up to the flash hole.
Leave off the kids with AR,s. While us old guys are learning history they might be preparing for tomorrow.
Excellent video thank you
Is there any recorded use of the Dryse needle rifle in the american civil war?
I meant the Dreyse rifle!!
No, because in 1861 it was still something of a Prussian state secret (although other countries knew about them and had obtained examples), and nobody really had any idea how well they would work in war.
Wicked cool. I feel like it would be easy to make a mistake in the heat of battle, though
I wonder if a better gas seal could have been achieved with a tapered base plug in the projectile?
Most interesting
That thing looks like it kicks.
Complex now Yes? The Day NO! after the 1st load looks rather FAST!! from concealment! I would BET more than One Riflemen used the next load to charge and seat the last ball? Not such a fan of a cap so close to a wrist but maybe better than a face? I bet the flash away from face was an Accuracy Boom, less flinch and Open eyes!
Just think how fiddley flint IS!
I would Wager the downfall of this riffle was the changes in manufacturing needed, while considering the manufacturing had just got set for the New Cap lock long guns. So basically cost, time, and needs did not line up in the eyes of those who held the purse strings.
What a Treasure you Have!!
Keep those Smoke Poles SMOKING!
nice gun man
So having fired from an empty chamber you are, ultimately, left with a loaded rifle ... but with no powder behind it(!) How do you 'unload' - ram it back & out?
Would cleaning rod be too obvious?
Sorry? Presumably, if Greene just patented Lancaster's 'Oval Bore' in the States, the latter too would have had locking lugs - making them (if not copied from elsewhere) Lancaster's idea.
The hammer really resembles a Kammerlader
What happens if - between firing session 1 and session 2 - the guy forgets there is bullet left from last time?
They thought of that, and made it so it’s impossible to double load the rifle, the chamber isn’t large enough.
@@papercartridges6705 Thanks. another question. probably 60 years ago I saw another underhammer rifle and wondered then: do caps ever fall off? (I know they are a press fit - I have a Civil War Manhattan and I once had a replica C&B Colt.) but....
Is there a good book that covers the Greene?
Unfortunately not really. The closest we have is probably Volume 2 of the Round Ball to Rimfire series, which has several pages of the Ordnance correspondence and the most details about the cartridge and bullets.
I might be mistaken but... wasn't this gun among those used by Serbia in its wars of independence 1876-77?
That could be materiel vor a sequel - no?
Perhaps… many were sold to Russia and they often provided obsolescent arms to countries aligned to them… the Berdan rifles to Ethiopia being one example.
Oooh dang you might give forgotten weapons a run for its money, greetings from Canada(God Save the King)
I know I would pinch my hand with the bottom mounted hammer sooner or later.
An I’d love to shoot this amazing Gunn
Honestly find the reverse facing cartridge kind of pointless. Just feels like it would of functioned without that taking out an unnecessary feature of the rifle. Making it cheaper, easier to use, and generally faster firing. That extra step just looks so off. That and the location of the percussion cap, I can bet a lot of blood blisters were caused by it's hammer.
Vejo que você não conhece os underhammers. Fuzis vencedores em campeonatos.
A strange bolt action rifle
A bit complicated but you don't have to stand up.
At 14:50, Calvin is sooooo stinky...
A true +1 ?
I wonder if Dreyse ever saw one of these.
I guess would have said: look what I have started in 1820
@@uncletom2962 lmao, look at this and it's even better than yours
Really interesting concept.
That is a gun I would be interested in if it would be made as a replica.
Firing the original always seems somehow wrong to me.
However thanks for showcasing it.
Did the rifle see any action in the civil war?
There is some evidence that Massachusetts troops may have used them at Antietam. Bullets have been dug up from the battlefield. This is the only potentially documented combat use.
Most of you wanna see me shooting it…. No I wanna know the story behind it
Gee, so innovative, so earth shattering, not like an 1848 design called the Dreyse
The Dreyse was actually 1841 but your sarcasm is noted.
You did not show accuracy
I’m a terrible shot.
@@papercartridges6705mas você diria que tem boa accuracy ou um muzzleloader é melhor?
As a Line Rats weapon, definitely not. Too complicated.
As as designated marksman's weapon, with a little bit of development it could have been devastating.
Does anybody make a reproduction?
Unfortunately nobody makes a repro that I know of.
Drip
headphone warning at 14:01
I knew I would miss one. Most of the gunshots I lower the volume but one slipped past me. Sorry!
@@papercartridges6705 how did you find this one by the way? Local find/sourcing or auction?
Hi sir, this is Henry Karla from a hunting accessories brand. I am attracted by your performance in YTB and sincerely invite you to work together. We can sponsor your videos. If you are interested, please leave me your email. Then I will send you some products to see. Looking forward to your early reply.