Body language analysis: is Elliot Page transgender?
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- Опубликовано: 22 янв 2022
- In this video I dusted off my forensic skills for some amateur analysis of Elliot Page's body language as she was interviewed by Oprah on her experience of gender transitioning to ascertain if she made the healthiest choice for herself, or if her subconscious is foretelling of a future detransition story.
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#Elliotpage #transgender #bodylanguage
I've thought this exact same thing as well. But do you really need to misgender him? I understand why you do.....But what is gained?? Besides a moral superiority?? Or rational superiority? Does that mean if we were friends and I had asked you to call me she, you would not?? Or would you to my face, as a courtesy, but then not behind my back?? I really don't understand the need to do that. I'm not criticizing you either, just trying to understand. Like I get biological reality and all that and im ok with being misgendered by strangers cuz they see what they see.
But if you know someone and they've asked for pronouns is it not our human courtesy to allow that for them? The same as if a Donald prefers Don. Or Michelle prefers Shelly. You wouldn't be a dick and continue calling them what they've asked you not to right?
I see pronouns in the same way..... more of a courtesy thing. If you're a decent person ill call you whatever pronoun you want. If you're a dick, ill probably "misgender" you out of lack of respect (For instance).
In this case I respect Elliot Page enough to say him. Until he does something that removes my respect I see no reason to call him she. (Does that make sense?)
Its the same way I call the "Its Ma'am meme" guy a guy and he. Cause he's clearly exercising his "he-ness" all over the place and lost my respect. Even though he's a trans woman.
Whats your take on that?
So you can make a distinction between Elliot and Mrs Ma'am.
Artemis makes distinctions on slightly different line.
when I try to imagine situations when someone demands the use of a pronoun, I think of aristocracy demanding devine right from the peasants, and its expression being a capitulation to the hierarchy.
So I'm not fond of the idea.
I'm happy enough to call anyone by whatever they like in day to day life. But I draw the line at any kind of coercion, be that legal or screaming.
@@GDKLockout agreed. Like I said. For me it comes down to respect. If I respect you you're far more likely to have me pronoun you how you want. Ruin that respect and it becomes harder for me to do so.
Sadly passabiity plays a big factor into it as well. If you look like the gender you're going for then its also far more likely you'll get the pronouns. I go outside and rarely get misgendered. But do I get mad if one stranger happens to say he. Nope. Not a chance. I do however get slightly irked when friends do it.....because there's the element of respect in there. And they're showing lack of it, which makes me question the friendship. Know what I mean?
Its very complicated for sure. But a good guage......is if strangers gender you how you want to be gendered then you're doing something right.....if they don't, you gotta work on your transition. But definitely shouldn't get upset at them. Thats childish.
But if friends maliciously and purposely don't want to respect your pronouns then its time to question the friendship? I'm still on the fence on that one tho.
But yeah
...respect....its why the "its maam" meme person lost my respect. Cuz he blew up at that cashier like a hulk. So...he'll forever be a he to me now until he can show me he deserves my respect. (And since I don't know him personally I doubt that's gonna happen)
Great question and I'm *really* glad you asked; doing so tells me that even though you may be irked by my practice, you're still holding room for curiousity which is massively respectable. I have a video coming out to address pronouns cause it's a monster of a topic that has tons of nuance, but I will do my best to answer you here. As I said in the last comment, all of what I am about to say is with a very neutral tone and I mean no insult by any of it, and I realize that conveying anything that might prompt someone to confront inconvenient truths about themselves or suggesting that someone is somehow defective often triggers offense. I do my best to give exactly what I think and know while being as tactful and kind as I can; I want people to live the best life they can and I don't believe that can be done if we're always talking to avoid negative emotions.
Before I can even answer you though, I have to shed some light on the frame of reference you're using to explain potential reasons for my behavior. So, you're having a hard time pinning down why I refuse to use Elliot's preferred pronouns because you view the practice from the underlying belief that I would do it out of some kind of superiority, when that word doesn't enter my mind at all as a motivation for me. Humans have a tendency to see things in a competitive sense, because our genetic coding is geared towards physical survival. In this day in age in many areas of the world, now that we don't have to compete physically, we compete in the emotional sphere, over "who is more superior", and it's a very archaic way of thinking and behaving. If I feel like someone isn't worth my time interacting with, I excuse myself politely and that's the end of that. No digs, no "gotcha's", no misgendering on purpose just to annoy someone because that brings me to an immature level. I'm interested in solutions and civil discourse, and you can't get there with petty behavior. When you stop seeing everything as a competition and work towards mutual respect for each other's perspectives and autonomy, you've shifted the frame entirely and can actually begin to make progress.
So, to begin to answer your questions "what is gained by me not using Elliot's preferred pronouns", and "would I misgender you behind your back?": You might have heard the part in the video where I said "there are certain circumstances for which I would use someone's preferred pronouns", because I recognize there are definitely times when breaking the biological rules of pronoun usage make more social sense, and I'm fine with that. You said so yourself that you have a sense of when courtesy should be extended for preferred pronoun usage, just for me the bar is a little higher. If someone clearly is not taking steps to align themselves with the gender they claim, then especially no, I will not honor that pronoun, much like you and the "Ma'am meme guy". My bar goes higher to say that it takes time and dedication for me to use a preferred pronoun, and whether or not I respect them doesn't enter the picture because that's a subjective judgement and gets messy quickly. I could hate someone's guts and as long as they were consistent and time-honored with their gender expression for the pronoun they want, then I would be bound to that to uphold integrity in what I believe, and not be dragged into the petty behavior of "I'm going to misgender you because I think you're a jerk." Since it seems to me that you're consistent and benign in your gender expression, I would call you as you wish, in and out of your presence. Elliot, on the other hand, has had only one year of testosterone and transgender experience; which, by the way, is a WPATH violation to allow someone top surgery with less than a year on cross-sex hormones, and to me just screams Hollywood elite getting pushed to the front of the line for an agenda and I don't buy it. It also takes a lot of time to adjust and integrate this kind of experience and until it's a lived experience that sticks and is proven genuine with time, I cannot honor it, and this brings me to what is gained by me holding out on preferred pronouns until proven consistent: as a more cautious minded individual, I believe that if I did not express more discernment and concerns, it opens the door for hasty action that leads to trouble (ie all the detrans stories of people who aren't trans and regret it). It's the classic battle between the left wing and the right wing (political parties): one stands for creativity, innovation and progress, the other stands for security, stability and tradition. We absolutely need both sides for the best balance. There is a kind and empathetic way to hold boundaries like I am talking about in withholding preferred pronoun use, and it's unfortunate that most people only know the "I won't use your pronouns because I dont like you". If I love or care about someone who is going to transition, I would square with them and say "I love you and want the best for you. I'm not sure if this is it, and until I am, in order to compromise and respect both of us as much as possible, I will use the pronoun that I see in you." A conversation doesn't happen like this very often because people are not used to being able to respect someone else's viewpoints/freedom of speech and not take it personally, even if that person is professing their love and care all along the way. I do not see it as a human courtesy to use preferred pronouns with no grounds for reasoning other than "you seem like a nice person", because pronouns are not subjective, they're objective, meaning they're rooted in fact. If you're going to override those, there had better be really good reasoning, and not just "as a courtesy". Now, names on the other hand are totally different. Names are as subjective as they come, and if you wanted me to call you Lavender Fields I totally would.... because that's fun and as far as I can tell, totally harmless (because you don't think you're a field of lavender and take steps to become that, only to one day realize it isn't for you and try to undo the patch of lavender that you've had surgically implanted all over your body). The analogy is extreme and meant for a little comedy, and also to point at the false equivalency fallacy that was made when comparing names to pronouns.
There is also a small anecdote that I have that adds weight behind my choice to withhold pronouns until proven, and that is that I had a friend of mine who still took his life even though everyone around him affirmed his pronouns. Using his pronouns didn't save him. It's likely he had other comorbid mental health issues, but the excuse that people use of "using preferred pronouns saves lives" isn't always true, and I wonder if the front of being transgender didn't get in the way of uncovering what the real issues were. There's a ton more to unpack with that but I'll save it for the video. I hope I sufficiently answered your questions! It's insanely complicated, and I aim to give respect to both parties.
@@t-timewithartemis4174 well said. The part where you said "ill call you the pronoun i see in you". Irks me a little bit. Because who are you to dictate whether someone's transition is valid or not.
I have a friend like this that consistently calls me he. He has said its "because he doesn't think im trans and can only ever see me as a man". Now....thats fair. But its not really up to him is it. He's known me for 18 years....so of course he "doesn't think im trans" cuz to him its all sudden and unexpected. He wasn't in my brain for my whole life and only knows a very small sliver of who i am. And do him....thats his memory. And its valid....
But that doesn't mean he's right in his assumption, just because he "can only ever see the old me". Doesnt mean im not trans. And doesn't mean he should disrespect me like that. Because we're friends.
But....I still love him and am friends with him because fuck it. Thats why I said im still on the fence about cutting out friends simply for misgendwring.
But eventually he's gonna switch automatically because so many times it's been pretty awkward when we're out and he says it and all the other people are like....um....who are you referring to. And then during the course of the night hell call me she.
So over time....it will become natural and hopefully he will see me for who I am and not his own projection of who he wished I was or thought I was.
But yeah....its interesting. I allow him to misgender me because I've been friends with him for 18 years and he's allowed his own perception of me for sure. We can't control peoples perceptions. But.....how long will it take before im "trans enough" for him. Know what I mean??
Thats why I think its dangerous to judge someone else transition based on a very limited perception of that said person. And while we might think we know whats best for them....we really just don't ever have the full picture.
I do get where you're coming from and what you're saying though.
That being said...I have a friend going for top surgery and I really really really want to warn them against it. Because in my mind...I can see they're not actually trans. (Whether thats true or not brings me back to what I said above, above having a full pictuee) but my limited perception is that they're confused. But thats not my job to stop them or warn them. They will figure it out on their own.
@@Lavender_1618 Lots of good stuff in there, I'll have to make my response brief: Ultimately I err on the side of respecting free speech. Calling you a pronoun that I see doesn't invalidate someone's transition or trans-ness, it's reflective only of that person's views and beliefs. I talk about that concept in the video "no one can invalidate you". After 18 years, yeah, I'd say you more than earned it and it is a little puzzling to me that he would still call you a she; I would be tempted to say that you may be right in that he is the one holding onto something he wants, but also men are a lot more subconsciously invested in biological distinctions because their programming is more heavily geared towards sex. That's why women usually don't have a problem with using preferred pronouns and it's usually a guy bringing objections to the table.
To your friend getting top surgery, you're right, it's not your job to say anything and if they didn't ask for it then it's up to you on whether or not to stay quiet. For me, I can't stay quiet and I don't want friends who would rather I stay quiet; I want friends to be honest with me if they see something I may not, and vice versa. To each his/her own!
I felt like I was watching someone who would be punished if they didn't say the right thing. It was creepy and made me sad.
Why has being a women been reduced to 'wearing a dress' and let's face it 'being heterosexual'. Too many young masculine lesbians being heartbreakingly led into believing they cannot be their authentic selves in their body of birth.
Exactly.
Thank you!
Poor girl had extreme body & gender dysmorphia & took far to extreme measures to deal with it. This madness must stop
Classic example of having the money to destroy yourself. 40 years ago,if I had been a famous person. I’d probably be dead. Till cheap opiates took over. Most people couldn’t afford to harm themselves with sex,drugs and rock and roll. Lol
Pays to be poor when you’re young. 😂
@@clarks58facts! I heard another podcaster say that the extreme poor and extreme rich get the worst health care. The rich bc they get sold all these extra interventions w out being told about the effects / risks properly.
Yes, I agree. Her brain and line if thinking reads very very feminine.
Huh I was almost feeling like maybe she gave herself body dysphoria by transitioning when it wasnt really the solution and regrets the changes she made. Not that I can know if that's true or not but the feeling was not very positive in the video.
@@anakadmon6606I follow this girl who got on t within a few months of asking it seemed like. Within like two years it went from nonbinary, to trans male. And she still wears very feminine clothing and presents feminine, like she did before surgery. I do worry about this happening to her and I fear it does she will double down.
I hope she does not kill herself, she looks like she's in so much pain. She needs help. I felt really sad for her when she was describing her "joy".
Well stop misgendering him.
Elliot seems extremly emotional unstable. And im with you , that there are underlying mental health issues where transition is not the solution and professionals should differ that, because it leads to malpractice.
Many years ago I recall seeing them interviewed and thought they were mentally unstable back then. I don't think it has anything to do with identity issues, I think they likely have always been mentally ill. They are far too intense, in an abnormal way.
@@bingonamo7520”ThEy”
@@bingonamo7520grew up in Hollywood. There's the cause for ya
The absolutely disgusting issue with this whole thing is why, oh why didn't psychiatrists (I'm assuming they were involved in Elliott's transition) pick up on this and put the wellbeing of their patient first.
@@turquoiseopalfruit Because in the USA transing the gay away is a good money spinner. Thats one of the many problems with not having socialised healthcare like we do in Europe. Also the psychiatric profession has been infiltrated and captured by the gender woo cult. Good psychiatrists have a choice they can either go along with this “affirmative care” model or lose their jobs. Many have left the profession because they know how utterly wrong it is to affirm a vulnerable person’s delusions and not even explore other ways of looking at their dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is the only mental illness/condition (all dysphoria are) that therapists are being told not to question and told they must affirm the illness. It’s a bigger medical scandal than lobotomies. The USA is an absolute abortion of a nation. This shit is repugnant. Paige and so many other young vulnerable kids have been utterly let down by adults around them and the medical institutions.
To be honest she still looks like she is very sickly. I guarantee she is still struggling with some of the issues she said she had before she transitioned.
Hope she will make de transition soon
One way or another, he looks very unwell/unhappy to me. I hope it works out well.
She's playing the role of her life, badly. My thoughts are that Ellen got addicted to the praise and attention she got when she came out as a lesbian. She wanted to relive that attention and glory, so she went to the next level, the ultimate in narccicistic supply - coming out as 'trans'.
Maybe.
It seems all she or he now cares about is validation.
I don't see narcissism in this person. she seems so anxious and tense, a small presence in the room trying to be smaller. it's quite cynical and unempathetic to assume that all these people are attention-seeking narcissists, I think many of them are mildly autistic or naturally awkward. for autistic people, being in a near constant state of discomfort with yourself and the world around you is just a feature of the condition and something you have to learn to manage. I feel sorry for many of these folks.
@@froogsleegs Go back and watch clips of her a few years ago. There was nothing anxious and tense about her. Quite the opposite. She's clearly jumped on another bandwagon for attention. She might feel anxious and tense because deep down she knows it. Or because she's acting the part. She is an actress after all.
@@froogsleegs and it's arrogant and self righteous of you to assume they're all just awkward or autistic.
@@SingmetheSea yes, I shouldn't assume. you're right about that. I am very familiar with autism, though, and the trans community is majority autistic. the Tavistock gender clinic in the UK confirms that 90% of their patients are also autistic. there's a very clear correlation between the two. I'd agree that somebody having a trans identity is usually a flag for narcissism. but statistically they're more likely to be autistic, especially if you go past "I'm trans" to the stage where they are considering hormones/surgery. it's important to point out that people who are aware on some level that they are socially disabled may try to self-medicate or cure it somehow. with people constantly saying shit like "trans is the future" "you are valid" "be kind" under the trans flag it appeals to socially vulnerable people by default. we should remember that
"Elliot" seems like a cult member being interviewed.
I feel sorry for Elliott. Getting caught up in a whirlwind of gender campaigns and ending up with lasting and permanent mistakes on the other end
Feel more sorry for the countless confused kids she's influenced with her 'trans joy' (obvious) lie.
@@lefroy1exactly. At a certain age I have less and less empathy. Talking to people who are thirty and older and full of shit about this is infuriating. Talking to these young people, its frustrating but I do feel for them
I have seen the same thing with Jazz Jennings. There is a videoclip, where she is reacting to Matt Walsh, and she proclaims to be happy and comfortable in her body, but she closes her eyes the entire time she says it.
What did I feel when watching that? Like I wanted to run. I felt extreme anxiety, I physically cringed.
Something is really at play with Ell. The eyes reveal a lot of tragedy. I think the Japanese refer to this as sanpaku eyes.
People don't believe that transgender is or could be a trend unfortunately, that's really the problem, too many young people especially are confusing their personality and being manipulated into believing that their personality, likes dislikes, taste and interests, is actually *trans*
And then cosmetic altering is being sold and promoted as a cure all, to kids who ten years ago would never have been allowed a nose job even if it made them feel better!
Really interesting video thanks
I was comparing this interview to the interview with Ellen Degeneres in which she talked about coming out as lesbian - the emotions conveyed are startingly different.
Interesting. I definitely felt awkward. It's the exact same way I feel when I tell my boss that I like my job and/where I work during a merit review.
It's the traumatic fear of being a WOMAN that can lead to this.
I don't necessarily think that you can judge whether Elliot is trans or not based on one interview. Especially when you consider that this is the first time Elliot is talking publicly after coming out as trans. There is still a lot of stigma against being trans so it is understandable that he was probably nervous during the conversation.
Trans identities are elevated above every other group, especially for men claiming to have magicked into women. Especially white men.
Women claiming to ‘be’ men are only ever famous for topless shots (with or without ab inserts) and pregnancy, while the mulvaneys of the world get to dominate everything female.
Body language is not a very reliable way to judge even if it was 100 interviews, that being said I feel like something is obviously up with Elliot just based on human empathy alone
Eliot never felt comfortable being female yet she is.
@@louwinters508 maybe elliot was never comfortable with the male attention a female body attracted. This is a common cause of gender dysphoria which many young girls and women experience. Especially for a celebrity with all eyes on them and for nearly every one during puberty.
This is like watching somebody's body language to assess if they're gay. This is quack science at best.
Very interesting. When she talked about what brought the most joy, I reacted with nervousness for her, like a sympathetic response to someone caught off guard who has to act/lie.
What kind of mental issues do you believe she has?
I'll be honest, I don't really know what, if any, diagnosable disorder may be manifesting, though it's clear to me that anxiety is present. Some have speculated that she is on the autism spectrum, which would lend greater clarity as to why she has gender identity issues. It's known that there is a high correlation between gender identity issues and autism, due to the prevalence of alexithymia; it doesn't mean that these individuals are transgender, it simply means they have a harder time distinguishing their inner experiences and turn to transgenderism as a potential solution for their confusion. I'm working on a video about that now, actually.
@@t-timewithartemis4174 Yes, she's stammering sometimes and feels quite uncomfortable.
All in all, coming out as trans doesn't exactly seem like a liberating pill of joy in her case, at all.
Trying to Be yourself is already hard enough in life , but it's hell trying to be something you're not..
How absurd to say that trans kids are or will be denied playing sports...when the issue is simply not allowing male to female trans is unfair to REAL females.
Elliot is obviously so uncomfortable with herself. Watching her speak about her “joy” left me feeling the exact opposite of joy.
Yeah they really should've gone on T and Binded and lived as a man for at least 1-2 years before top surgery. The fact that they did top.surgery first before even hormones is kinda scary. But well see.
@Dan Banny yeah....well wake up to the fact that gatekeeping is needed sorely. Cuz trans people DO exist. Just not on the scale were seeing it.
Social contagion runs in biological women for some reason it seems (historically anyways, not meant to be a sexist statement just a fact) and its easy to see in the data.....like its so obvious this is what is occurring among young women. an almost 3000% increase in FTMs and 600% increase in detransitions among FTMs, while MTF numbers have remained relatively stable / grown at the slow rate you would expect with wider social acceptance....
The data doesnt lie.
And unfortunately it will be transwomen that will bear the brunt of most of this....cuz society hyperfocuses on us....when really we're not even the demographic they should be looking at in this case
I see no joy. I feel sad for Elliot.
its ELLEN page
It's ELLLIOT PAGE, pronouns = HE! Not she or her. Please stop misgendering.
I think Elliot and Demi’s transition and coming out seems forced and kinda like they’re… coping with something and this is an escape from that. Now that’s NOT with all trans people but this can apply to some
I thought that too it's part of the satanic agenda....they are told to transition from women to man....smh
Or perhaps coerced to become idealogical posters in exchange for more fame ?
@@lightlightlightWell Demi is now using she/her pronouns again, so I don’t think she’s trans. I think she’s just going through things along with having bipolar and mental issues
Most.
now , elliot just appears to be a stunted , pubescent boy. no where near manly.
....but she thinks being a man. Performing man? She started out as a woman (not a man) and she's still not a man. She's not even "giving" man (as the kids say it these days).
I remember watching this and thinking she didn't seem happy or comfortable at all; the constant closing of her eyes and almost tearful tremor of her voice was especially concerning to me. At this point in time, with the publication of the memoir, "Pageboy", Page appears to be committed to the bit. We'll see what happens going forward.
i dont get why people can't just be a feminine male or a masculine female without thinking tehy are in the wrong body. could just wear boyish clothes and have boy mannerism and not mutilate your body
Here's how I've come to reason with that:
Some people have emotional trauma that leads them to believe they need to change their bodies. It could be that they grew up with parents and influences that didn't support non-conforming gender expression, or they may even have suffered sexual trauma. They just need some therapy to help them sort through their feelings and reasoning. Unfortunately, there are still places in the world where people are not supported just to be themselves, and try to force them into boxes. For transsexual people like Blaire White or even myself, we don't believe that we were born in the wrong body; instead, we have a medical disorder that causes us to feel/operate better on cross sex hormones and certain surgeries. It's much like someone who is intersex- born with ambiguous sex markers (neither fully male or female genitals). It's a genetic mixup that happens in the womb.
It's a pretty complex thing, but I hope that helps. Feel free to check out my video "Meta to Molecular..." where I take a deep dive trying to define transgenderism. Thank you for your comment, cheers! 🍻
It’s so clear she is struggling, why are people ignoring that!
"Children will die if they can't play sports" how absurd. Also nobody is saying trans peple can't play sports and sports has always excluded people who don't meet the requirements to make the team.
Female sports is and has always been a biological category.
When she started crying, she said it was 'happy tears", they were traumatic years if you ask me.
HE!!!! ELLIOT IS A HE.
He*
@@gemmawilliams3369 SHE is a woman and will always be a woman.
How does flattening the chest make her feel like a man while still having a vagina? Makes no sense to me.
I get your point.
I think Ellen felt pressured to become a dude because of the gender ideals placed on her in Hollywood.
Whatever she or he wants to call himself or herself whatever is nothing to do with me.
I just think Eliot is nuts. But I wish him the best and don't feel any sort of anger or hatred about it.
she looks like she's ready to take a nervous breakdown, i hope she's getting some kind of help with this
Thank you for such an informative video. I have no idea what Elliot thinks besides what he says in interviews. All I know is that I see a person in pain, that has not yet found solutions to that ache😢
For heaven’s sake what happened to her to end up like that -she only provokes pity and empathy and the hope that no one of your family and friends has to go through this one day ! She’s completely lost and believes that only this Frankenstein surgery can bring her happiness!
Since when we switched to criminal surgeons from psychiatrists who gave totally up.
And Oprah -completely zero as always ,how she could make such a career and money will always be an enigma for me !
She's so desperate to be edgy and so in need of attention. The over acting is so silly looking.
That was very uncomfortable to watch, I hope Elliot finds peace...
Sorry bro, we can question all we want but I am gonna call Elliot as he wants until said otherwise by him.
May I ask why? I'd like to understand the fundamental belief behind your choice.
That was a very interesting, thoughtful video. I’m left feeling sorry for the waif "Elliott." I don’t see masculine confidence and strength here. I’m puzzled by her leap from "I don’t like these clothing choices" straight into "therefore, I’m a man." In the not so distant "old days," a person couldn’t make a medical transition without first spending a year dressing and living socially as the opposite sex. "Passing." This is a girl, a vulnerable young woman who simply has electively had a bilateral mastectomy. That doesn’t make her a man, and as she comes to realize this, I fear she will find that she couldn’t have been more wrong in making a statement like "children will die" if denied medical transition immediately. Like you, I fear for her future.
Just want to point out that Elliot Page is 35 years old - not a “girl” or “young woman”. There seems to be some infantilization going on bc of her slight stature.
@@__rm307 That's interesting.
Watching these clips (I've actually never seen EP before), I couldn't help but think of the Hollywood pressure to remain young. And my feminism-informed brain started to go in the direction of "hmm, interesting way to avoid the fear and hurt that comes with becoming a not-young woman".
She seems unstable.
Wow I'm glad your video got recommended to me..I believe you are completely spot on with this..I feel as if she does regret transitioning..but you know how Hollywood is so I don't know if she feels she can even go back..but again great video.i subbed.
it's fascinating to see how fast he jumps from talking about himself to injustices or ideologies who might not be based on facts. Plus, when he always talks about transgenders in a very dramatic way " children will die, transgenders get killed often, they can't have access to health care etc... "
Holy shit, this is very thought provoking, unique content. Almost everyone would be afraid to say this (even though a lot of us have thought her transition is questionable) due to what the wokies would do. You've earned this click on the subscribe button. Looking forward to watching more of the uploaded videos on your channel.
I appreciate your analysis. Elliot's transition always seemed forced to me. When compared to other people who've transitioned like Kaitlyn, Blaire, and yourself Elliott doesn't seem nearly as comfortable with their transition. We live in chaotic strange times where healthy questioning or raising concerns towards anyone going through with transition is automatically dismissed and ridiculed as transphobic.
Thank you for your words, and I agree with you about the questioning. It's such a big topic that I decided to do a video about it- "Troubles and considerations in questioning and gatekeeping the transgender community". Thank you for the inspiration 🙏
ruclips.net/video/DdkV654LUQM/видео.html
Caitlyn o dear god dont get me started i almost puked
Excellent breakdown, I don't pretent to be educated in body language at all, but I came to a few of the same conclusions you did. I really appreciate your take, and think you absolutely nailed it. I hope Elliot/Ellen finds some peace in thier life. I still remember watching him as a young child playing Jim Lahey's daughter on Trailer Park Boys lol, oh how things change.
Sounds like a sensible and clear opinion, thank you Artemis. Hope people listen and consider.👍🏻
There is so much to unpack with this video and topic. You've provided some insight and clarity, but I'm left with so many more questions. There's so much more work that needs to be done with respect to supporting trans-individuals, but it seems like the current narratives are making things worse. You're brave to speak about it.
If you have some time, I'd welcome what questions you're thinking! It helps me to understand where other people are coming from so that I might be able to better collaborate solutions. I appreciate you commenting!
@@t-timewithartemis4174 I'm happy to send them to you, but I'd feel more comfortable if I can email them directly.
Of course! It's siriusartemis@gmail.com
@@t-timewithartemis4174 thank you! I'll have them out to you by early next week. I'm looking forward to learning more about this!
I thought clothes didn't have any gender.
I hope transition works - they have been so public that I can’t imagine that they can really detransition if they ever felt that would be best for their mental health.
this interview is ....galling, man. i have deliberately evaded any of this horrorshow since it happened, its even less convincing than i had dared hope for. her own sake. its like someone has a gun trained on her behind the camera. every 'post transition' picture i've seen has that vibe,
I don’t get it if he’s so happy why does he looks so miserable
Elliot looks so so thin. Almost sickly.
Yes, and there's a lot potentially going on behind that observation that I think is worth contemplating; I'm not saying that she has the following, just something to consider. The first is that those "comorbidities" associated with transgenderism often includes eating disorders. The second is that testosterone changes the fat distribution, and so for women taking it this means that the face often gets thinner, and you can have trouble keeping weight on. This is actually my current state of experience; just one thing that must be carefully managed and considered against the potential benefits of hormone replacement therapy for transgenderism.
That's what I thought as soon as I watched the interview. I Wish him the best anyways. In my personal experience I would give up veganism, it's not healthy, not for the body as well as for the mind. I belive he's a good person and I wish him thee best, without judging. Thanks for the video
Someone needs to reach out to her!! Like frfr, before she decides on ending herself or sm else horrible. Noone wants to talk about how many ppl off themselves after transitioning, the numbers are dangerously high for such a small community. I’m hoping the best for them. New subscriber here! 950 to be exact, I’m excited to see how far your channel grows, we need to bring the dark reality if this topic to the light
I'm so sick of people saying kids will die if you don't encourage them to ruin their bodies. If trans want to play sports they need to get their own trans sports
Really appreciate you expanding my mind
Making the cause your identity.
Lots to think about there for me, I might be guilty of that to some extent too. I'll be thinking about this for months. Thanks, but also not thank, trying to be honest with oneself on this level on analysis is bound to be painful.
Absolutely, it's not for everyone. I think it's what Jordan Peterson means when he says that "when you go within to face the Dragon, you don't always make it out alive."
@@t-timewithartemis4174
Well that's nice, I might end up losing my mind altogether. Lovely.
🤣 One more thing to add to the list of "things that I didn't forsee coming" that 2020 has since brought 🤣
1) If gendered pronouns were tied to biology then languages like mine wouldn't gender everything from inanimate objects to abstract concepts and feelings. Yet the chair i'm sitting on is a she and this room is a he, no chromosomes or genitals to indicate such thing, and we have had to learn as children the gender of every single word we use.
Gender is a construct, and i think just because you may feel fine letting people disregard your own identity, doesn't mean that every other trans person has to have that forced upon them by you or anyone.
No, i don't think its cool to throw a fit any time someone misgenders you, but it has value to advocate for the respect of peoples' identities.
Biology is biology and acknowledging it has its own time and place (with each person's doctors), for the everything else we are people, not our genitals.
2) The entire field of body language reading is known for misrepresenting those of us who are, as anglo speakers are calling it now, neurodivergent. Among other things, eye contact is something that has been given such a huge amount of validity as an indicator of someone's "true feelings and intent" that it has made it hell to carry on social interactions for people like me, who simply feel different about it.
You can trust me when i say if i'm making eye contact with you i'm putting on a front and all my energy into said eye contact so you will buy that i'm feeling much more comfortable than i actually am. But when i can let my energy go to everything else, on how i'm feeling and what i want to share with you and not worry about where my eyes, or my hands, are going i can be my most honest self.
I dont really know much about Elliot, only met him from Umbrella academy but from what i've seen and heard he seems to have always been the less social type of person that would do the same type of thing. And i think whatever his situation may be, which i am not saying the scenario you propose is impossible, he still deserves to have this aspect of him respected as well as any trans person does, because the alternative is you are contributing to the undervalue of someone's genuine identity for the chance you might be right.
And just to add to this: i do not have LGBTQ friends, not in real life or online. I have not been "recruited" into this way of thinking, i have only had casual conversations with a few trans people in person because i happen to go to a general health center with a trans care unit, so sometimes you make chat while waiting in line. All this is to say, i do not really lose or gain much from thinking this or that way, i don't have skin on this, and yet i was raised to respect people for who they are first, and whatever grievances i may have won't be at the expense of their physical appearance or identity. If someone is rude or shitty in any way, they are so regardless of who they are and that's what i care for and what i will call them up on, not the way they look or their way of life and so on.
And like this, i can't get it in my head how someone who gains or loses nothing can find it so easy to call people the way they feel like, even in a language that is not my own, yet someone who has everything to gain or lose can't.
I appreciate your input, and will clear some things up. I'll also make the disclaimer that I am not upset in the following message, just stating my thoughts and oppositions.
Gender isn't always tied to biology; it's a very complex and nuanced thing. It's also something that we as humans are actively trying to define, since it doesn't really have one accepted definition at the moment and is a relatively new word to the language.
I mentioned in the video that there were scenarios for which I would consider using a preferred pronoun, and am by no means a biology absolutionist in that way; that too is very nuanced for me. I find it really curious though that you would say that just because I do not mind what pronouns people use for me, that "doesn't mean that every other trans person should have that forced upon them". You also say that you were raised to "respect people for who they are... and whatever grievances i may have won't be at the expense of their physical appearance or identity." All of these add up to a very fundamental difference between the way you and I view the world and self: I do not place other people in control of my identity, and I do not believe that it is respectful to default to obeying someone else's exception to the rule. It doesn't mean that rules cannot be broken, it simply means that I do not start with a broken rule; a rule that exists because it's a majority and when it gets broken, there is a higher liklihood of instability. It's just statistics. Everyone who has made the argument that you make believes that other people are responsible for validating someone's identity, and that it is the "respectful" thing to do as a default. I just disagree, and can change my mind if it proves to be a mutually respectful scenario. If someone takes issue with my freedom of speech, then no one is forcing them to stay, or forcing them to listen; the language you used- "force"- falls in line with the "words are violence" narrative, and that is where free speech starts to die. It seems to me that you find it honorable to call someone who is "rude or shitty" by the way they want to be called, but honestly I just see this as you rewarding their bad behavior. I can dislike someone and still use their preferred pronoun, so long as they are doing everything else respectfully- "rude and shitty" are not worthy of respect; respect here is earned, not given- another big difference.
To answer your last pondering, I have recieved more *genuine* respect and support from people outside the LGBT community than inside it especially with this issue, so I do not lose anything with this stance, in my view. I have found that anyone who would not respect my logic in initial pronoun usage and places their validation of identity with me *will* run afoul in their integrity at some point or another and is a social ticking time bomb.
To address your point about body language being different in neurodivergent people, yes, this is true. I watched many of Elliot's other clips though and do not see evidence for neurodivergent; that would be a whole other video analysis. I have known many people on the spectrum high and low, and there are other tells as you mentioned: when you're comfortable you let your eyes wander, you may have other tics or movement that is atypical for a relaxed conversation, and the key here is that this is sustained throughout the conversation- it doesn't just come out when something uncomfortable is asked. Again, you'd have to watch many of her interviews to get the baseline, which if this were more than an amateur analysis I would have shown because many people like yourself have brought up the neurodivergent aspect. That being said, there is a high correlation of people on the autistic spectrum and claims of transgender, many of which are not accurate, which furthers my point of being cautious of Elliot's claims, if she were neurodivergent in this way.
Pandering to pronouns has lost females a space to safely and fairly compete as well as intact male rapists being housed in female prisons
You can respectfully kiss my fat female ass
I see where you're coming from here, but there could be a multitude of reason why when asked about the best part of transition, negative feelings or insecurity could spring up. For one, Elliots marriage deteriorated, assuming because of them coming out as transgender, I am sure there is contradictory feelings swarming in Elliots mind there, for one Elliot could feel better about himself, but on the other hand someone you love and are still attracted to is no longer attracted to you. Two, Elliot unfortunately needs to transition in the public eye, for all to see and scrutinize. There are people analyzing everything Elliot does and every which way they react in interviews. There are also people publicly disrespecting their name change for political purposes, even though most people who aren't transitioning would be respected if they decided to change their names. They also clearly do not pass quite yet, and naturally have a small stature, I'm sure it is difficult to deal with that, knowing there are certain things you just can not change. That all being said I agree with you on the fact that Elliot, and many other trans people I see form their identity on the basis of transition. For me personally, that seems a tad dangerous, considering being trans is the identity, rather than transition being the means in which allows one to be more comfortable within society. I enjoy hearing your perspective, and respect your views.
Thé Elliot interview makes me feel very uncomfortable.
Fantastic analysis!
I'm trying to read if Oprah genuinely gives af, lol
Yeah. I still can't get over that she was an actual friend of Harvey Weinstein!
it would have been beneficial for you in this anaylsis to have used a control interview/speech or two regarding a socially charged topic in regards to his behaviour during this one. you do make a some good points but there are some things you are overlooking. some of which include you making generalizations about how someone should express joy, espeically in a situaton that is emotionally charged. you also mention people having cormorbities, which means it is also possible that one of his untreated cormorbities could be contributing to the behaviour you are deeming socially incorrect and not specifically, that he is 99% not transgender.
I can see your point, in a more thorough analysis, potentially including other interviews; certainly, someone administering a lie detector test would ask "baseline" questions to determine what someone's resting behaviors are to control for erroneous readings based on what you seem to allude to, which is that this person may have contraindications in their behavior compared to the average individual. I did this is a minor way by making comparisons of behavior throughout the course of the interview, but that's why I was careful to include the disclaimer that this is an amateur analysis, not the least of which for that consideration and for reasons I am about to get into next. There are a few things that I would respectfully counter to your points: the first of which is that the judgement of "socially charged" is pretty subjective, and what you find to be such, this person may not, rendering that a moot point. Also, trying to gain a baseline in a totally different scenario removes the control of the analysis being done in a singular scenario... ie why a lie detector test's baseline questions are done same session as the rest of the interrogation. Also, let's say that this person's expression of joy is atypical- "socially incorrect"- and as you pointed out, there are comorbidities that may be the cause of this, and are not necessarily an indicator that the transition is the source of incongruity. However, a lack of emotional congruity is one of the hallmarks of autism- something that we are coming to see as highly correlated with false claims of transgenderism- and transitioning is often not a solution that "fixes" the individual's discomfort for any length of time. This is still frontier information in the field, so I won't speak beyond just revealing that potential link. All great points you made to get the gears turning!
@@t-timewithartemis4174 Thanks for the response, I would be interested in dicussing my other comment with you if you are open to it. I saw you mention to another commenter that your reply is respectful and not to be taken an angry/insulting tone, the same would stand for my response just to clarify. I did acknowledge from watching your video that this is an "amateur analysis," with that being said no lie detector would be essential for a behavioural comparison in this amateur setting. There are different interviews with Elliot online, as well as a speech where he comes out as gay (similar enough to this situation as it was the first time he came out as gay vs the first time he talks about his trans experience.) Although it is a speech and not a one on one interview (the same conclusions of behaviour cannot not be tied down one hundred percent) the speech is something that is prepared, like you had mentioned this interview not being "off the cusp." As you stated, it does remove the point of the control being the exact same. On the other hand in terms of getting an idea of his behaviour, not necessarily a baseline for complete comparison, if it is an amateur analysis I would think some guideline would be helpful as to not blindly accuse.
In regards to the speech and his behaviour during it, from my perspective there are quite a few similarities between how is reacting then and in this interview. Unfortuantely we cannot come to any conclusions about eye contact because it is for a crowd, which wipes away the idea of maintaining eye contact unless he is to blatantly look at the ground/sky/far left stage/far right stage. "Socially charged" is subjective yes... I feel as if that is easy exit to discredit to my point of the situation being socially charged on your part though. It is well know worldwide that being in the LGBTQ+ has its limitations for many in terms of respect or acceptance from other people, whether someone is gay or trans or what have you. For example, your video. Not that I think Elliot will necessarly entertain hateful people but participating in this interview he is well aware of the hatred and disrespect he is potentially exposing himself to. Considering the interview is for the public, considering there are plenty of people against even the existence of gay people let alone trans individuals... Which he acknowledged in his speech I would come to the conclusion that, without knowing him personally and his direct opinion he would consider it socially charged. If bringing up lawmakers (social influence) and their dismay for trans people (people being influenced by their change) doesn't set the bar for realizing that to him, the trans topic is socially charged im not sure what would.
In regards to saying his expression of joy is atypical, it is definitely important to bring up the point "a lack of emotional congruity is one of the hallmarks of autism." I'm aware people with ADHD or Autism are more likely to be trans or have confusion that they think they are trans, i'm also familiar with a lot of information and ideas from organizations like but not limited to SEGM. However, blanketing that you would bet money on someone not being trans (99%?) because of these behaviours, in this specific situation is confusing to me. From watching 25 minutes or so of your content regarding your own transition, I would find it difficult to come to the same method to conclusion you are using in Elliots case, that you are joyful about your transition and changes based on your expressions. You talk very assertively and monotone (not in a bad way!) and I don't see a lot of joy or happiness from you in the way you are hoping to see from Elliot to deam him trans or not, maybe I would have to watch more of your content to see more expressions of joy. Just because I don't see this from you, doesn't make me assume that you are not happy with yourself. Hypotetically one could argue that you talking about things in a more monotone basis could be a self defence mechanism due to trauma, hiding how you might actually feel behind a solid singular expression. If you remain uniform in your speaking/expressions, no one could ever know how you feel about your transiton or anything for that matter unless you specifically had stated it verbally. I don't mean any offense by these comments, so my apologies if it is taken. I'm only trying to explain how your POV could possibly be applied in other situations, not that you aren't trans.
I find the comparisons of behaviour a bit difficult to understand. The only time Elliot maintains the most eye contact is when he is not talking about his personal experiences but when he is discussing lawmarkers + activism and even then he looks away (more quickly) multiple times. If you are using the beginning scenario (dresses/dysphoria) as a baseline for behaviour, he touches his face at 3:11, adjusts his pants at 3:14 and already has his arm over the pillow until 3:20 when he moves, so this points can be moot as well.
At 3:58 you make the point that talking about something traumatic is serious but Elliot laughs which is kind of "odd." You do specify that it wasn't what you deem a nervous laugh which leads me to believe you understand research has found nervous laughter can be a coping mechanism to situations that make us feel weak or vulnerable so I won't use it as a point. I will suggest that if Elliot does have autism, can nervous laughter and this laughter be distinguisable? I really don't know but it's important to consider. You mention that the interview is prepared and it is likely he received questions beforehand about the interview to prepare. Part A response to that is I would agree that is most likely what happened, with that being said we are talking about Oprah. The same woman who interviewed Michael Jackson and asked him if he was a virgin, to which MJ acted suprised. I don't think that asking someone "what brought you the most joy in your transition?" is a question completely in left field like with MJ but... Elliots behaviour in regards to the question makes me wonder if he did not expect to be asked it. At 5:53 he seems surprised or scattering to find an answer that will suffice for the question, as if he wasn't prepared for that wording or specific question. This is further aided by him having to close his eyes and invision something to reply with, recounting his personal experienes with himself during this/that time.
At 7:58 you say he is "otherwise very engaged with eye contact." From my personal exposure to the clips within your video I would have to say most of what I see in general is avoiding eye contact. At 8:22 you mention he only breaks eye contact when talking about something uncomfortbale but it remains intact when discussing "children will die." Maybe you mean only his personal experience though. At 8:39 you bring up him shifting to put his arm over the pillow, supposedly inferring he is being deceptive not in his speech but that we can see it in his physical behaviour. As I mentioned before his arm was already in that position when talking about your baseline for behaviour, so wouldn't that mean it was on par with how he behaved before and not a sign? Or is it the act of returning to said position?
9:20 - I didn't feel joy from Elliot's expressions. I saw someone who was struggling to recount the personal experiences he had with his body, which can be emotional. Not that I think people should be thanking but why is it that when trans people (not televised conversations) are thanked by some people for sharing their story/experiences? Usually because the person thanking them understands to an extent it is a very emotional thing to recount and not easy for everyone to discuss as well as extremely personal. That could also be a reason as to why he is behaving this way.
You may think by my response that i'm here to argue that Elliot Page IS trans but you would be mistaken. My intention is to separate your anaylsis of judgement about him, not Elliot himself and how he may or may not ID in the future. I don't find your points consistent enough to prove he is one way or another and i'm not sure why you want to prove he is or isn't anyway? Sorry for the long response but as you said conversations like these "get the gears turning!" (:
Great ideas and much respect to you for taking the time to break down all you were thinking. I wish I could take the same amount of time to diligently respond to each point, but given my time constraints due to other responsibilities I will do my best for you, because I definitely feel that level of dedication is worth reciprocating.
And I didn't take anything you said as an attack or personally; I greatly, greatly appreciate the chance to have a neutral back and forth to learn from! Truly, in other people doing as you have, I get the rare opportunity to learn in a calm environment… such a rare thing. I'll try to just give responses in order of which you write them, so they may not "flow" but I'll have the best chance at answering as much as I can.
I agree about the error in choosing a public speech for eye contact comparison with this interview, and as far as her realizing the gravity of her remarks and having that potentially impact her behavior when speaking, even when it's in a private interview, it's possible you're right, I just do not have any frame of reference for that because I tend to view things from the environmental association aspect; as in, behavior is usually explainable within the environment it happens in, not projected into a hypothetical scenario. It's basic animal learning theory, and certainly humans can supercede this, but in general when a situation is stressful we default to this frame.
To your point about expressions of joy, two big things there: one, yes, there was trauma for me in childhood in regards to emotional development, so there are situations for which I put that face on to keep grounded/gaurded, but also, I am to keep very even keeled on the channel as a way to hopefully get the message across in a calming way on subjects that are usually very charged. If you check out my interviews on the channel Boldly Ambivalent though, you will see much more of my goofy and comfortable side. When I interact with people, I generally am much more vibrant. So, being interviewed versus speaking alone are definitely two very different environments.
Great question re: nervous laughter and autism. Something to consider!
As far as Oprah setting a precedent with MJ, certainly it could be that she threw a curveball at Elliot, because I would agree she does seem surprised. Even if this were the case though, again, I just can't get over the fact that when someone asks you a question about something that brings you joy, that you would devolve to self-soothing body language and anything but recounting joy.
And re: eye contact, yes, I should have clarified that I was talking about when she recounts personal experiences.
Re: the pillow, yes, it's returning to the pillow because that type of behavior (covering yourself in some way, in this case hugging a pillow) I interpreted to be a self-soothing/distancing behavior.
To your last question, I chose to do this body analysis because I believe that there is some serious manipulation going on with Hollywood elite (tons and tons of occult history, even behind the name and the rabbit hole goes very deep here), and I think Elliot is being used for a social agenda…. A much, much bigger picture than just whether or not someone is trans. The point here is to get people questioning, especially the fact that Elliot was pushed through surgery with far less than one year on testosterone… a WPATH violation, especially with the mental health comorbidities, and unsurprising for Hollywood. This is a highly public figure that is being upheld as a standard for which children will look up to… and that's a dangerous precedent in my mind if left unopposed by critical questioning.
Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed this, thank you, and feel free to bring your thoughts to the channel as often as you please!
@@sponge7494 perhaps the comorbitity is just autism? Cuz I am the same way and probably would've acted the same way during a really vulnerable interview. Also....shame plays a huge factor. Shame and being trans go hand in hand. And publicly admitting I am gay or I am trans is a huge step, but you can't just get over the lifelong shame you've had over having those feelings. And it will always show on camera if you still carry it. I think what we're seeing in Elliot.... is aspergers and shame which produces nervous laughter and the range of behaviors were seeing.
@@Lavender_1618 it could just be autism or more. i agree with you, if it was me in that interview i’m not sure how different i would have acted bc of the shame i have for my feelings of being trans. even if it’s a celebration, it’s hard to be honest without getting upset. thanks for the response !
Very interesting and very eye opening.
6:30 oh…. no…. oh no.. no no no no
that is not right
Someone help her before she 41%’s.
Thank you for calling this out as a religion. When I detransitioned I felt like I’d been indoctrinated into a cult lol
To be fair....whenever someone asks me about my transition. I get the same way as Elliot did. Because it brings up so much sadness of how I lived for so long without transitioning. And the weight of that hurts and makes me want to cry every time. But its not an experience most understand.....so I never know how to convey it and I get shifty and shaky lol..... This COULD be what Elliot is feeling? The regret of not having started sooner?? Watch it again with that frame of mind. I'm not saying that's what it is.....but thats how I related to it 100%
I also was wondering if Elliot was experiencing a form of grieving? I appreciate you sharing your experience, I can't imagine how hard the entire process is and I'm sure it takes years to integrate all of your changes (mind/body/spirit). I hope things have gotten easier for you and you're able to find happiness and fulfillment.
I completely understand what you're saying here, and I'll do my best to make the distinction between how I drew my conclusions and the experience you're relating.
So, in body language analysis, the wording of the question that preceded the body language is absolutely critical in order to make any kind of reasonable assumption of meaning, and to demonstrate I will give you an example. Say you have a suspect in custody, and this individual is hiding the fact that they killed their significant other, but it was a crime of passion that they regret immensely. When they are asked, "Do you feel badly that this person is dead?", they will give a very genuine show of sadness that might cause you to believe that they had nothing to do with the death. However, if you ask, "Did you kill this person?", the body language here will tell you what you need to know, most of the time. So, to relate this to what you have said: You said that when asked about your transition, it dredges up a lot of negative feelings and therefore your body language shows this, and that is very reasonable and even expected. However, Elliot was *very* specifically asked about "what brought you the most joy in transition", a question that focuses explicitly on happiness, and nowhere in there did she even smile; in fact the longer she responded, the more painful it got. If I asked you, "What has been the best part of your transition?", I would be shocked if initially, instead of focusing on the positive, you went straight to the negative. You might spiral towards the negative eventually, but your initial response is the important one because this is where body language analysis shines; your microexpressions and knee-jerk responses don't lie. Something else to keep in mind: the practice of directing conversational attention with focus words and questions is called priming, and you'd have to be an incredibly aware and skilled communicator to resist this pull. If something like that happens (that you focus immediately on the negative instead of the positive that someone is asking about in your transition) it's still minutely possible that someone is transgender, but it indicates there is a lot of emotional baggage needing unpacked in therapy because a healthy individual can easily cite what makes them happy when asked about it.
One last small side note here is that there are many, many people who would do just as you did: relate to Elliot on some level, and I want to unpack that for a minute. I think that what you're trying to do by explaining another potential reason for Elliot's incongruous behavior, without considering the exact context/wording of the question asked of her, is relating to her to validate your own experience of discomfort on the larger topic of transitioning, but the two experiences are not the same, as I detailed above. People who are more empathetic do this- they empathize- it's a positive human trait in many ways. It just can easily get wrapped up in committing the "false equivalency" fallacy; that is to say, comparing apples to oranges, because we are social creatures that look to see ourselves in others, and also justify our own emotions. It's human behavior 101 (and let me tell you, taking courses like that was the most surreal experience ever, like seeing yourself at a distance and realizing so many things that you do are just programs running at a subconscious level due to millions of years of evolution; it makes you question who you really are).
I say all of this with a very neutral tone and mean no insult by any of it, and I realize that conveying anything that might prompt someone to confront inconvenient truths about themselves or suggesting that someone is somehow defective often triggers offense. I do my best to give exactly what I think and know while being as tactful and kind as I can; I want people to live the best life they can and I don't believe that can be done if we're always talking to avoid negative emotions.
@@t-timewithartemis4174 fair. Yeah I've experienced that feeling of realizing that were all just a bunch of programs repeating ourselves in infinite branches of thought loops. Gender is such an interesting concept for this very reason. Because its one of the core base layers of identity and programming. Theres self, then gender, then the rest. Gender informs literally all of our actions and inaction and thoughts and feelings. Its literally inescapable. Lol. Though 99% of us are highly unaware how these programs are affecting us and subtly changing how we interrelate. Haha sorry....a tangent.
But I agree. Watching it over and over again. I think I agree with your assessment more. As my initial assessment was based on my own experience and relation to it through empathy. The more I watch it from a detached perspective the more I see what you're saying.
Still not gonna call him she just yet tho. For me that will only be possible once they do something to loose my respect. And right now I respect him enough to respect that he wants to transition and be called he. But that can change. "ITS SIR!!!" 🤣
@@Lavender_1618 Well said; thank you for this! It's rare to have true civil discourse these days and I appreciate it so very much. Disagree with me all day long, Madam!
Interesting points, thanks for sharing.
Thank you for the listen and the comment 🍻
Skills from my nearly useless bachelor's degree! If I borrow that please...
Great video, thank you
I think you're right on point, and she's not happy with her body and she no's she might have made a muskets and she regrets it,
As soon as she transitioned the suicide clock on her started. She’s not long for this world, she convinced herself that if she desexualized herself by cutting off her breasts and claiming that she was a male that would somehow make her less of a victim. But you can’t change the sex that you were born, she is a female and all the trauma that comes with a female still resides in that female body that her gendered soul lives in. She didn’t transition, she just mutilated herself to escape. And she failed. It’s heartbreaking and it’s sad but I won’t be in the least bit surprised when she kills her self; rest in peace Elliott/Ellen Page.
I had no kind of training or education about how to read body language but even a bag of hammers like me can see that she feels completely over hear head with this attention weighing down on her. I honestly think that she never expected this kind of reaction about the choices she made and now understands what kind of backlash would be unleashed if she turned around now.
I honestly think that you are right. About a new stress balloon building up very soon.
I thoroughly enjoyed your thoughts. Great job. 👩🏻🦳
I’m not sure what is going on with her (Elliot), but your channel is trending. I have practiced medicine for 27 years in Atlanta. I’m very curious how transgender issues are going to affect our medical practice since we are phasing in Urological treatments for TSXL. I practice Uro/Gyn which is exclusively cisgender female. Within the past 3 years, I’ve tried to be aggressive in researching issues that may compromise the health of my female patients in regard to transgender concerns and comorbidities. Subscribed. Enjoy your style.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment; I would love to hear more about your experience and what it is that you're researching. If you'd like, please send me an email to siriusartemis@gmail.com; if you're interested, an interview to post here on youtube may be of great service. If not, I still would love to chat.
Merry Christmas Eve! 🍻
Great video. Intellectually honest
wow thanks for bringing this to our attention. I actually didn't even question Elliot even though I'm generally someone who can be critical when it comes to someone who says they identify as trans. So, hearing a critical view from a trans man is very interesting and eye opening.
wow, really cogent and insightful analysis -- you're good at this!
Thank you for your kind words 🙏
WOW! You're one of the most intelligent person I've seen on RUclips. But I've noticed on your body language that you didn't let go not for one second of that mug in your hand. ✊🍯
Probably like a security blanket.
Just my analysis.
I over analyze things sometimes. Lol 😄
New subscriber! 👍
Thank you for the comment and the subscription 😊
Yes, that mention had been made by other observers, and I agree it's an "adapter" behavior; something performed in a time of stress in order to soothe or distract.
In my real-time life, I scowl profusely while in deep impromptu thought, which is a terribly off-putting behavior I'm trying to be more conscientious of; it's why I script my videos so I don't have to think while filming 🤣
I appreciate your engagement and observation, and welcome more! Cheers 🍻
@@t-timewithartemis4174 Thank you so very much for your response back! 🙂
I appreciate it too! 👍
Cheers! 🥂
What a great thread. Actual conversation rather that screaming and name-calling. I kept reading, waiting for it to happen… and it didn’t. I literally have goose bumps. Thank you for this sanity. I’m going to sub.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment, I genuinely appreciate it and aim to keep providing content like this for viewers like you 🙏✌️💙
6:13 I dunno, it could be that she gets emotional in this way as the question has reminded her of her body before and that upsets her, as she didn't like her body before. However, Artemis might be right, as after all Elliot had her transition very quickly - too quickly, compared to most people. There was no time for it to all sink in. Perhaps a proper decision wasn't made.
The whole thing about eye contact is bs. I find it awkward to constantly look at someone in the eye. I also tend to look at someones mouth when they speak
I'm glad to see you saw the same. I felt bad that I didn't feel joy for him, but rather extreme sadness.
I do not agree with your assessment of Elliot. His transition was still quite recent at the time of this interview and he has gone through a lot. He says he went through a difficult time, never feeling comfortable in his own being and memories of those difficult times may still be effecting him. I hope he continues to recover and heal through the process.
This was a thoughtful and intelligent video. I’m curious about your childhood experiences and what led you to identifying as transgender. Do you date women or men?
Thank you very much for your compliments and curiosity! One of my first videos on this channel, "How I (Didn't) Know I Was Trans" should answer that wondering about my childhood in great detail :) I will give the disclaimer that soon I will be doing a followup video to that one, parsing the nuance of the transgender experience. I'm not the transgender type that has been claiming since earliest age that I'm "in the wrong body", but instead my transgender experience has been that through a gradual process of getting to know myself, I feel and operate better in the world as one would label "male". They're two very different iterations of what end up being lumped together in the same category of "transgender". Fascinating stuff though and I've got more videos coming out to dive more deeply into it.
To answer your last question, I've always been sexually attracted to women, and am in a monogamous marriage to an amazing woman 😊
Very thoughtful, insightful analysis. I think you're absolutely right.
Thank you 🙏 I love your icon image, by the way!
Absolutely didnt feel like relief....
Artemis, what a great video! Have never heard Elliot speak but after watching this I understand why you are using she pronouns. If I met this person on the street, I would assume she/her pronouns. It seems like Elliot has major body dysmorphia and I don’t know if they have gender dysmorphia. I wish them all the best and I would always use someone’s preferred pronouns when I know them but I understand why this is so confusing to the general public. ❤
Thanks for a great analysis. I suspect you are right on all fronts, Elliot does not seem like a happy bunny in the slightest. This is why I am massively against transitioning in minors. And even as adults I would expect medical professionals, doctors/psychiatrists to put the wellbeing of the individual before profit. What a sad state of affairs.
You are spot on 💯
To the person who made this, serious question, are you also transgender? Not trying to come off insensitive - I'm genuinely curious. If you are transgender, why did you make this video? I'd be interested to hear & learn more about what this video stemmed from for you.
No offense taken at all, friend, and I appreciate your curiosity. Yes, I am transgender- FtM.
There are many reasons I made the video, but I will try to sum them up for you here. You may wish to check out the videos I did about "Troubles and Considerations in Questioning and Gatekeeping the Transgender Community", "Sun Tzu predicted the Gay Agenda" and "We might be approaching transgender medicine backwards" to get a fuller picture, but here's the short:
I believe that it is very important to ask the tough questions of any emerging science or trend, in order to make the best decisions possible for the long term of individuals and societies. As it relates to the topic of transgenderism, we are seeing a surge in people claiming that they are transgender, and an equal number of people de-transitioning because it wasn't the best thing for them. In the process, we have very loud radical activists labeling themselves for transgender rights that are trampling the concerns of people harmed by this push, and this lack of empathy is going to reflect poorly on healthy transgender individuals who don't even agree with the radical ideology (ie transwomen can play women's sports, medical intervention for gender dysphoria in children, etc). Elliot was pushed through the medical transitioning process *way* faster than is recognized as healthy by moderate medical community standards, and being that this is someone in the public eye, this is a very dangerous precedent to set. By speaking out, I am expressing that I do not agree with what I'm seeing and want it to be understood that transgenderism is not the problem, and instead the problem is mentally immature people concerned only with themselves that are creating this visible narrative that is not balanced or thoughtful. This is readily demonstrable when anyone speaks out as a detransitioner and they are immediately attacked as "transphobes", and even myself have been called transphobic just because I express concern about the wreckless push for medical intervention of children on a mass scale. These radical activists don't care about other people and that will come back to bite the community, and I will not stand down and allow these people to speak for me. I'm not saying that transgender medicine be banned, I'm simply advocating for a much more careful approach and empathizing with all sides... pointing out all the trouble that I see with a public figure like Elliot gets the message out.
Thank you, again, for your curiosity; would you mind me asking where you intersect with this topic? I'd love to know.
@@t-timewithartemis4174 I appreciate you responding.
To address your first point when you said that there is an equal amount of transitioned and detransitioners, that seems heavily flawed. All research I found shows that while the exact numbers are debated, that only 5% of people detransition with the average number being around ~2.4-3% of people who detransition.
It's a great thing to understand why that is and what can be done to prevent it, but according to Elliot's interviews, he has been feeling like he was a man since he was 5. So while you may feel his transition happened overnight, if we are to take his words as fact, then that's really not the case. It also gets really dangerous to pretend we know what's best for other people or to dismiss the real and lived experiences of transgender people, which you, a transgender person, are ironically doing with your misinformation and trying to assess body language. Body language at best is only 70% accurate and has to occur within clusters of behaviors, however, you only looked at one-off, specific behaviors from Elliot - thus making your "points" that much more flawed and inappropriate. Your video and your response is contributing to that. Elliot has a long history of depression and so to say that because they didn't appear to be happy in 1 interview, which is the only interview of his that you referenced, that he is now not transgender, seems really irresponsible- almost like you are trying to gatekeep, which is surprising as a transgender person yourself. I'm sure you wouldn't want people to refer to you as a gender you didn't view yourself as, though ironically, that's exactly what you're doing with Elliot.
Your attitude towards all of this is deeply concerning. Actually, Dave Chapelle highlights that the incessant bullying from transgender ppl who gatekeep are what caused his transgender friend, Daphne, to kill herself. Whether you will admit it or not, you are contributing to that tragic issue and I hope that since you've now been made aware of the effects from your actions, you'll reflect and try to share more kindness for yourself and others in the future.
I can see your perspective, and I know you're coming from a place of care and concern. There's a lot of subjectivity there, though, seemingly just as much as you've said I've come from. To anyone else reading and of course to you, let me disclaim that there is no anger in my response. To address your points, respectfully:
Many statistics available are coming from sources that support transitioning, not to mention you would have to look at what were the parameters considered for "transition", as well as how long the stats had been followed for. We're still in the thick of people transitioning and do not yet know how many for whom this was not a good choice. It also doesn't account for those people who have ended their lives- they're still considered "successful transitions" if they did not detransition. Evidence is also in looking at all the anecdotal evidence of parents speaking up for their children (Abbigail Shrier's book), individuals speaking up on RUclips, etc. Statistics can be easily skewed and manipulated and are only as good as their source, and often the source has a motive because it costs money to collect that data, sadly.
Of course, body language isn't 100%, but the words that come out of someone's mouth can absolutely be a 100% lie... that's why I took nothing of what Elliot said. I looked at other interviews, and decided that this one was just the most obvious of them all, versus dragging it out into a very long study (which is why I disclaimed its amatuer nature), but the body language was still consistent throughout all. Of other note, just because someone gives a verbal narrative consistent with what they're doing, doesn't make it true. Elliot has a lot riding on this decision, including now a documentary about transgenderism; it would be too easy with that much pressure to do as much as you could to convince yourself and others that the decision you made was the correct one, and this includes building a narrative to support it. I also knew someone who did a documentary about their transition... it was featured in a very well known film festival... he also ended his life. The point in me saying that is that he was affirmed at every point in the transition, he also had comorbidities, and we are all left wondering if the solution hadn't been pinned as complete at transitioning, would he still be here?
There's a *huge huge huge* different between bullying someone (to bully: to seek to harm or intimidate), and questioning them. I don't support a single person incessantly tearing another person down over their experience- that's bullying. It's not bullying when one person is regularly asked about something by many different people, especially when it is such an abnormal experience- that's just life. Yes, it's a hard life, but all the people who asked those questions are not then responsible if someone ends their life based on that. I don't know Daphne and I don't know what kind of bullying she experienced, but my guess is that it was harassment for being a transwoman because, unlike transmen, they're much more likely to be the targets of bullying and violence, by the definition of the word. It's a terribly sad thing, of course, but there is no way coming from my experience that I would be moved to silence just because I was afraid that, in trying to make sure someone was making the right decision by voicing concern over the red flags I saw, they would end their life. You'll never get it right 100% of the time, and at the end of the day, we both make decisions based on what we think is the best we can do. The best I can think to do is not just to be quiet and accept everything at face value. You say that it would be kinder of me to accept the stated experience of transgender people, and I think it's terribly unkind not to give warning of concerning signs that I see; staying quiet while people march themselves blindly into the medical grinder (that often doesn't care about them, watch Exulansic if you want hours and hours of proof of that). Asking someone to share with you the reasoning behind their choices and expressing doubt where you see red flags encourages them to actually reflect and consider what they're doing, instead of being driven by feelings which so often mislead, and to me shows you give care and concern versus just smiling and nodding... smiling and nodding is easy, expressing opposition is hard and it's in passive silence that stuff goes sideways. Opposition is like bumper rails in a bowling alley; when done in a healthy way, it ensures we don't go straight to the gutter, because let's face it: humans and their ability to navigate the complexities of themselves and society is as good as a child throwing that bowling ball down the lane. I am absolutely gatekeeping, yes, but there is also a difference between the nasty, narcissistic gatekeeping, and gatekeeping in a way that maintains integrity for public relations. I address that too in "Troubles and Considerations in Questioning and Gatekeeping the Transgender Community".... I would really implore you to check that out to see what I'm talking about. There's this tendency of people to see in false dichotomies- "gatekeeping is all bad because it isn't all good", when really, just like everything, the nuance is where the answer is. Some gatekeeping is bad, some is necessary. If Elliot is healthier and happier in 5 years time, then I'll be happy to eat my shorts. I'd rather be wrong in raising concern than be right and having said nothing that might have helped.... but that's me.
To address the assumption of the gendering issue: what someone calls me is their business, not mine, and I absolutely do not care nor do I need someone to validate my sense of self with a pronoun ("No one can invalidate your identity"). It's not like a name, a totally subjective thing. Gender is based on reality of primary and (other times) secondary sex characteristics. It's rare that someone is being an ass about pronouns on purpose, otherwise I vehemently disagree that anyone should be policing pronouns- it's tyrannical. I did a video about that, if you're interested in a perspective different from yours ("To S/He or not to S/He").
I wished Elliot well, I expressed that I hoped I was wrong, I didn't quantify the steps taken to transition as "not trans enough", didn't even say that I knew what was best for Elliot, or even say that I could never be convinced. I took a route that was more considerate of the whole, expressed doubt based on what I saw/knew and gave discernment like I carefully do to everything in my life.
May I ask if you have skin in the game, as in, are you trans yourself? Usually this doesn't matter too much to me, but in this case, if you're not trans then you wouldn't have anything to worry about if society needed a scapegoat for a generation of kids that received damaging medical intervention for gender dysphoria. It's easy to be an ally and then quietly slip away when the narrative shifts; I'm looking at the long game here, as well as being considerate of both transgenders and people who think they're trans but actually are not, versus just transgenders; it's not about gatekeeping to be seen as a member of an exclusive group for a "snowflake status" flex, and it's always so sad to me that people go straight to this if they're offended by my method of thought.
I appreciate and respect your point of view, again, because I believe that you are coming from a place of care.
I completely agree with you. Well spoken. You're very intelligent.
Elliot is really hard to watch as an empathetic soul, very emotionally troubling.
Hey, you didn’t talk about what tea you were drinking! I feel offended.
This is a very difficult topic; it gives me conflicting feelings.
On one hand, the concept of ”judging if someone is a real trans person or not” leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Probably because it can be used in very bad ways, I’m likely associating it with things like conversion therapy.
At the same time, mental disorder comorbidity is such an important thing to adress. With mental issues like anxiety, anorexia and depression, it’s fully normal to go ”your brain is lying to you” etc, or being able to state that a severely depressed or suicidal person does not know what is genuinely best for them. Psychologists and therapists need to be able to ”challenge what’s in your brain” for any sort of therapy to work. That’s not transphobic, it’s making a proper diagnosis to make sure the patient gets the best possible help.
As an aspie, I was not gender-conforming in my teenage years, and I kind of felt like an alien in general . As far as I know, this is very normal for aspies. Perhaps even more so for female aspies, because they often don’t get diagnosed until much later and therefore don’t know ”what’s wrong with them”. I also think that female aspies might enjoy ”typical male hobbies” more often, and that might lead to a confused identity, when it’s just about their brain being ”aspie wired”.
While I’m not a psychologist, I wouldn’t think it strange at all if these people would feel a sense of belonging when they hear about trans identity. That it could be seen as an answer to their feelings of not belonging anywhere.
I also think there’s a lot of problems with the ”surgery will fix my problems” mindset, as you’re touching on. It can absolutely help people, but it shouldn’t be used to place the responsibility for one’s mental health somewhere else. That will likely just increase feelings of helplessness and victimhood, regardless if they’re ”genuinely trans or not”.
Cheers!
Excellent input, my friend. What you were saying about the "bad taste in your mouth" is such a huge factor for so many people that I did a video addressing it- "Troubles and Considerations in Questioning and Gatekeeping the Transgender Community"- and that you were able to stomach it to hear the information is commendable and respectable!
I think you're right, too, I'm taking myself too seriously and forgetting about the detail that everyone is *really* coming to the channel for: the tea selection! 🤣 But for real, I'm sorry for missing that detail... I need to keep it together!
Always good to hear from you, talk soon I hope and I wish that all is well with you 😊
That thing about aspies, and especially female aspies, rings very true to me (dx:ed at 40 as "somewhat"). I matured quite young (no growth after 12yo), and am very short and curvy. And because of my age I only really learned about the possibility of FtM when I was around 18-20. And at that time I just draw the rational conclusion that passing would never be possible for me. Besides, I find skirts and dresses comfy (as a child I took it as a signifier of female-ness, but have later understood that it was actually more to do with sensory problems - I insisted on skating and skiing in skirts!).
I do wonder how I would navigate things if I was young now. Would the "transcommunity" appeal to me? Maybe. But maybe not.
The older I get the more I toy with trying on "masculine style brain pattern" as an alternative label for "autistic style brain pattern". It feels quite nice. (It was interesting taking a battery of psychological tests for some occupational assessment, I score smack in the middle of the male scale and out to the side of the female one.)
And the older I get, the more I start to understand why I had such a hard time with typical "girl socialising" when I was a child. The amount of brainpower I have poured into trying to decode social stuff is staggering in hindsight, if you don't have the instinct for that it is really complicated and hard work. I can imagine choosing a male role could feel like a "get out of social jail -card" to some aspiesh female teenagers.
i know you haven’t uploaded in awhile but was wonder if you would consider reacting to 90 day fiance… theres a new couple, a trans woman called Nikki, never her bf she was born male n she told him during a fight… it really broke him… she also didnt like his name igor so she changed it to justin which i find insane…
Hi there! I appreciate the suggestion. I'll add it to my list of things to look into for new content👍 I recently got the opportunity to film a couple of new videos that I hope to have posted soon; I've not been able to spend as much time as I'd like on the channel but I'm always working to change that. Thank you, cheers 🍻!
Given the degree to which having breasts in particular seemed to be a trigger for Page, I can't help but wonder if she is a rape/incest/molestation survivor and that much of her extreme discomfort stems/stemmed not so much from wanting a male body but wanting not to have a female body due to the horrors it has brought her.
What a painful unpleasant interview.I feel so sorry for him.
I thought pronoun choice was usually based on the perceptions of the speaker rather than an inherent quality of the referent, at least until recently and in the general community in the anglosphere. Don't know about within the LGBTQ+ community.
I am happy to use people's preferred pronouns but I don't like that we're all expected to have our own set of pronouns now. I usually want to say 'use whatever pronouns feels natural for you when referring to me' but there's no space for that on forms.
Sometimes i say 'any' which probably leads people to think I identify as nonbinany. I don't feel truthful saying that she/her are "my pronouns" (i'm female) because the pronouns people use when talking about me don't belong to me. I don't own their speech. And it feels like being coerced to participate in controlling behaviour.
I feel like this is somewhere where the trans community might be shooting themselves in the foot (or trans activists might be making thnings worse for regular trans people). Personally, I was fine and accepting of "preferred pronouns" but now we're not allowed to say "preferred" anymore (I think that framing is regarded as transphobic?), we have to say "he uses he/him pronouns" or "Elliott's pronouns are he/him". I do see a lot of people just going along with it though, apparently happily, so my intensity of feeling about it is also probably a me thing.
This happens on the gender critical side too. There are extremists who police mis-sexing rather than mis-gendering.
Thank you for your well-thought comment! I agree with your reasoning on compelled speech, and also that the radical voices of the LGBTQ "community" are causing social backlash. I did a video about the history and implication of pronoun usage- at least, here in the United States- called "To (S)he or not to (S)he"", and myself learned that in other parts of the world they can be viewed quite differently.
I'm musing on another video currently about the psychological underpinning of this "multiple pronoun option" movement here, which I find gets at the heart of the issue (short version: lack of boundary between "self" and "feelings").
Thank you again for taking the time to watch the video and leave such a quality comment; I hope to hear more from you in the future! Cheers 🍻
You're cool!
My heart goes out to Paige. I hope he finds happiness and is able to find the help he truly needs
Most of the comments here are so bad (I see this in other videos of him). You know what I hate? When people are so selfish and stupid that they want to believe that he, Elliot, is pretending, because he was soooo hot as a woman (I always see those comments, and it's mostly from dudes and straight people), and seeing someone like him, being who he truly is, it makes them uncomfortable, especially when they were physically attracted to him as a woman, so they deny that he is a trans and just acting. This is why most people don't come out, because of people like them. Most people think trans people are only fat, not society pretty, you know, stereotypes that you see in problematic movies. But not a gorgeous person, like Elliot. This is why I hate most people. They are selfish and shallow. Just be happy for Elliot, it takes a lot, especially in an industry that is so striaght, and undiverse, of course Elliot will be scared to come out. Its not like "influencers," she is a well known actor, and coming out is a big deal, unfortunately.
Literally, like of course he’s nervous it takes so much courage to just be yourself as a trans person. And now people are “questioning his identity”? Like it’s his identity not something you can analyse
I havent read a single comment starting that she is a female solely because she "looks better as a female or is soo much hotter as a female." I have only read logical/analytical reasons.
Looks unstable not nervous
No they're not, 😬 if you're going to analyze how he's acting now, you need to compare it with the way he used to act before the transition and he has always been so anxious during interviews, transition doesn't take away anxiety and dealing with all the world commenting on your stuff doesn't help. There's a lot of mental stuff to deal with. He'll be ok with time and most of the comments are like "this guy used to be so happy during interviews after transition". Maybe they were faking. 🤷🏻♀️ No one knows, it's media. Nothing it's ok at all, but he being anxious it's not a new go and watch interviews before his transition.
She.
I litterly thought this was a trans woman but its a trans man, sometimes i can't tell unfortunately. I feel bad now idk why i even posted this.
I appreciate you sharing! Maybe it'll help you to know that most people think the same as you 😉 I'm not at all offended.
@@t-timewithartemis4174 hey I actually was more focused on what u were saying to really wonder actually, ur very wise.
@@zestzonertheoblivious5828 Same here! And yes they are very intelligent and have interesting insights.
It’s hard to watch…… I feel bad for…….. Elliot ……😮😢❤ even though she may think she wants to be a real boy like Pinocchio….a girl can’t be a boy and people are gonna make their own judgement and call it like they see it….you could call yourself a unicorn 🦄 but people, rightfully so , won’t believe you and will think you’re crazy . Thanks 🙏 so much for your video, I’m subscribed.