As a women all my life (not a trans) YES WOMEN do dress provocatively FOR the guys. Yes there are times they do it to impress the other women but they most surely do it Many that is, for the attention from the men.
It's good to take joy in actively denying those urges. You're sacrificing your human will for the glory of God. As men, we can lead by example with our own modesty so our sisters don't feel so put-upon.
I knew a woman that broke off an engagement with a man because the entire responsibility to not fall into sin was placed on her even though she was tempted too. The idea that she was responsible to make sure she didn't sin AND that he didn't sin, but he was not responsible for either his or her own sin. I think that this mentality contributes to why many women are so sensitive about the topic of modesty, because many women have been treated as though they were responsible for both their own sin and the sin of men, but that there is no responsibility (that can be seen by them) for men to make an equivalent amount of effort on the behalf of women.
People are making huge generalizations. Do people really believe that ALL women dress immodestly to ONLY get the attention of men? Seriously? I can positively say that’s not the case. Of course many women do, but not all have those intentions. Can we give a little grace to the girls who never had good role models or grew up without faithful parents to teach them what was immodest and what wasn’t? In my college years, some girls dressed just as provocatively at our all-girl events as they did when we were in co-ed situations. Speaking from experience, there were many times in my younger years where I didn’t care what guys thought at all, I just thought a certain dress or top was cute. I also can acknowledge that there were other times I was thinking about how guys would look at me. But both situations can be true. It is a two way street, Jason nailed it.
I have teen boys, they play sports- I encourage them not to take shirts off when they are working out, to avoid wearing short shorts, tight shorts...they even want to sunbathe in the front yard shirtless. yes , there is a great temptation to be immodest as a young man. If its hard for me to look them in the eye because they are not covering their bodies- I believe they should cover up! Girls check boys out, they use men, they look them up and down too. Modesty needs to be talked about in young men!
In my experience, men and boys on streets dress much more modestly than women and girls, who typically show off way more skin. This is especially true in summer. A shirtless man is not the norm on a street.
I was waiting for 6 minutes for tips for men how to avoid looking immodestly and they were just talking about how men need to play mind games with themselves.
When he said, girls are dressing for other girls, and not for guys attention. My wife, who is a very modest woman laughed out loud. She said they are definitely dressing for guys attention. I am a table, top game, designer, and go to a lot of conventions with cosplay women dress for guys attention.
Actually many women do dress for other women, for some it's definitely more than for men. There's also some studies done that observe that. And anecdotally, I as a woman also agree, I've actually always dressed far more for other women/peer group etc., and very rarely for men. It's especially visible in terms of accessories and smaller details, most men don't even notice them, but other women do. I'm not saying it's the same for every woman, and that some are like your wife, but some aren't.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Women ABSOLUTELY dress for men's attention. I think Jason has lost touch with how it feels to be a single human being who wants to be valued for their body as well as their mind and soul.
Hmmm... I would say it's a little bit of both. A woman dressing pretty is like a man owning a sexy car. Sure a man might enjoy women's attention it gets but it's mostly to awake men's jealousy/respect/adoration, etc. Same goes for women when they dress up. Except when it goes for a woman wearing VERY revealing clothing. That is purely done for male gaze. (talking as a woman)
@@joane24 Was your objective to "outdo" other women when it comes to looks? Or to look the prettiest? Or keep up with trends? I definitely do not want to be the ugly friend in the group. I dress up to match other women but I think on a subconscious level women are trying to attract male attention. It's hard for me to understand how wearing a tiny bikini has NOTHING to do with attracting men. I think I have a rather lax definition of immodest. If your breasts are spilling out of your clothing, I HIGHLY doubt you are doing this to compete with other women. I think it is for male attention.
@@IONov990 to me, not really 'outdo' others, but rather keep up with trends (or rather show that I do), I see it basically as securing (or showing off, in certain situations) your status. Not just in a narrow sense of an economic class or something (I'm not that great😅), but rather to show I have a decent taste, follow trends (not sleep under the rock fashionwise), etc. Another aspect is implicitly following a certain dress code or style, it also sends a message of who you are, some of your values, etc. I actually have a theory that in some/many circumstances when women do seemingly dress for men, they still do this to in end effect, impress their female peers (because looking desirably for men and having men's attention elevate the status in some female peer groups; in these cases the male attention is like a ego and social status booster, not a willingness to really date someone). Maybe that's not as often as I think it is, but I certainly observed this. As for wearing a bikini,I do wear it, as majority of other women on the beach, and 99% of women my age. I honestly never thought about it in context of 'attracting men', I've always been wearing one.🤷♀️ One peace suits are typical for swimming pool. In daily life btw, my upper parts would never ever spill out of the clothing🙄. And I also don't dress 'sexy' or 'hot', just normal. The comment about women dressing for other women wasn't just about provocative clothing, but in general. And it's not news ever. Especially when it comes to following trends and accessories, men don't care about that stuff, rarely notice it. Btw from my observation, only a very small % of women dresses provocatively or in a 'sexy' way as their go-to daily style. Usually thats a signifier of a bit lower class, at least where I live. And it's also even for them, about adhering to certain social standards of their peers in terms of style. For example, the long fake nails, I don't think men care about that or even like that, but it's one of the marks of being (allegedly) 'sexy'. It's kind of cheap looking, and that's what I mean by the lower class,but's done to look 'sexy' so sexually desirable by the opposite sex, but it's also about sending a message to other women.
I also wanted to say thank you for putting that point so well :) I've been trying to verbalize that exact sentiment to my children for at least 20 yrs. , and have often failed to be as eloquent as you. 6/7 of my children are girls😊
It’s nice to hear a man discuss men taking responsibility. As a girl who grew up super religious, I covered and covered and covered and was never even alone with a man until I was married and still was endlessly lectured about modesty. In my late teens I waited tables outdoors in a warm area and the owner wouldn’t let me wear shorts or roll up my shirt sleeves like everyone else because I was attractive it would “distract men.” Yes in our culture women dress provocatively but most men aren’t even trying to guard their heart, they’re looking for lust because they can just blame the girl, even if a girl has no intention of that. I wasn’t allowed to wear mid thigh shorts in blazing summer because there’s no way men could see a 19 year girls legs without being dragged into lust. 🙄 And please before anyone replies with bUt wOmEn, yes I know we’re soooo evil too. I’m just venting from my experience because it’s extremely rare to ever hear a man acknowledging this. ❤
While it is true that men have a responsability to take and to acknowledge, that should not make women believe that they have a pass to dress immodestly or to not cover. Oftentimes, I see women saying that, since men have the responsability to guard their own heart, then women should not be too bothered to cover. Well, that is wrong. Women HAVE the duty to cover appropriately, even if men also have the responsability to protect their own heart. So while it is true that men have the duty to not lust after you if you wear mid thigh shorts, you also have the duty to not wear mid thigh shorts. The responsability is shared by BOTH men and women.
@@vituzui9070 Don’t pretend as if your position is universally held. Some honest Christians can also believe that during hot summer days, a manner of attire that allows transpiration and heat not to cook a woman alive can very well adopted, while still holding on to the insistence that excessive showing of the body is wrong.
You're totally right. Jesus talked about committing adultery in your heart with a woman who is not your wife. He never mentioned what that woman dressed like. Also in Jesus's day, most women wore long dresses with long sleeves and a veil over their heads when outdoors. So it came entirely down to the man who was lusting after her.
@@theeternalempire7235 I agree totally when you say that, during hot summer days, a manner of attire that allows transpiration and heat not to cook a woman alive can be very well adopted. However, I disagree with the implicit assumption that showing parts of thighs is necessary for such attire to exist. Very light linen trousers or skirts, for example, perfectly do the job, without showing thighs.
A man can be modest. He can put a looser swim shirt at the pool or not wear tank tops in the summer. Also he can also not wear anything too flashy or tight in general.
It’s hard trying to be a modest woman sometimes because no matter how modest you are, there’s always going to be somebody online saying you still aren’t modest enough. 😅 I’m kidding a little bit, but seriously. Almost every day I see something on “Catholic mom Instagram” about how pants are immodest, shorts are definitely immodest, and really women should just wear dresses all the time. I grew up with Bill Gothard style Protestant fundamentalism and I have no interest in bringing any of that legalism into my Catholic faith.
I think we Catholics should talk about looks and dress more positively. I am a member of Opus Dei and I learned that looking good, pleasing, beautiful can be an act of charity. If a woman looks beautiful, it elevates the hearts of those who see her. Beautiful means looking her best, wearing clothes and accessories that fit her complexion, hair and eye color and body type.
If we’re discussing often un discussed elements of modest, one thing to note for men and women is that there is an element of pride in immodesty. Whether you’re dressing for yourself, the opposite sex, or the same sex, why? Pride is usually the root cause. Not always, there are good reasons to dress attractively, but there is often a deep vanity or pride or spirit of competition or insecurity and pride to compensate for it - especially in the unexamined and spiritually immature. Something to consider potentially.
A young woman I was interested in dressed in quite revealing ways during an evening (it was a couples dance party). And the whole time when we were dancing, she was looking me in the eyes with a sort of piercing curiosity, with some other guys as well. Over time, I had the sense that she was just seeing whether or not my gaze would move downward, away from her face. That was and is very saddening. Knowing a bit about her story, she was left quite brutally by her boyfriend of four years, maybe she didn't know that there were other forms of male attention, forms that cherish beauty of heart, mind as well as that of body, that there are better things to be had from men. Together with so much confusion and woundedness from our pornified culture, I'm quite certain that this is not a rare phenomenon amongst especially younger women.
@@Quekksilber It inflicts further sorrow in the Immaculate Heart. Our Holy Mother has warned against immodest fashion in Fátima (1917), yet our standard of modesty in dress is in the '50s...
I don’t quite understand it more seems she was testing you … as she was observant to what kind of attention you were giving but there is prob more to the story…
@@AshleyLoveland1739 here in Brazil, and I have no reason to believe it doesn't happen in other places, it is known that in certain high level places (discotheques, boites, whatever name) there are women working, when a man approaches they clearly state the fee for the service, if you get my drift.
I appreciate much of what he says here affirming the inappropriate burden and shame put on women for their bodies and the judgement of their intentions behind dress, and I loved how he explained the point of modesty, but I would have loved to hear more of a focus on what modesty looks like for men. Maybe it is there in the longer clip but for a video titled modesty advice for men, it still largely focused on female modesty
@@michaelmicek Men can be inappropriately flirtatious. I think modesty between the sexes is going to look different since men are more visually attracted and women are more mentally attracted.
@@pukupuku I certainly agree that a difference is to be expected. Ostentatious displays of wealth and power might qualify, and especially confidence. I suppose the aggressive flirting is a display of confidence. So perhaps modesty in men is literally being modest in the sense of being humble.
Very interesting. I love C.S. Lewis' take on modesty and chastity in Mere Christianity too. He points out that 'modesty', in terms of clothing, can mean different things to different societies and different time periods while "the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times". I find it confusing now days, however, to understand what is actually appropriate and what's not, when it comes to clothing. Sometimes it feels like there's no actual societal standard anymore. I live in a very multicultural society with different groups of people with very different values. That's why I try not to judge others. Perhaps what they're wearing is considered appropriate in their circles. For example, does modesty mean covering your whole body, by wearing a burqa, covering your hair in public, wearing a skirt, not exposing your shoulders etc.? What some people find immodest, others might find quite normal and not at all triggering.
Dress in a way that brings attention to your face is one of the more practical principles I can think of when it comes to modesty. I think that's what religious habits do. And in some way, I think we laypeople could start from there and think about what makes them so good at drawing you to the person that wears it. Is it the simplicity? The amount of skin covered? The tone of the colors? etc.
As a tattooed man I feel better when I wear long sleeve shirts. I'm also treated differently. People do judge and even my behavior is different when I'm walking around in a T-shirt with my tattoos hanging out. I got them one summer while I was backsliding and now it's been a huge burden as a grown man. Guess I have to deal with it.
This is an interesting conversation. I’ve always been very modest in my dress as a woman. And although we should be modest to not let our fellow brothers fall to sin, people still have to take accountability for their thoughts and desires. What about features that are considered by some to be extraordinarily beautiful? Like eyes, smile, hair? We all have seen people that are out of this world beautiful. I don’t think I am a beauty but even I have experienced being all covered up in layers of clothes, and putting my hair down and wear a bit of makeup, I can get all sorts of male glances. We cannot fall into extremism when it comes to that.
Thank you for dressing modestly. I think dressing in a way that brings the attention to your face, that makes it easy to meet you at your eyes is pretty much the essence of dressing modestly. I don't know the intentions of everyone looking, but I think it is also within the human human heart to stop the things we are doing when we see a beautiful sunset, or a little flower springing up between the stones. The same goes for a beautiful woman. And I think at least partly these could be some of the glances you get.
There are some very voluptuous women that will never be able to hide their curves. I definitely think men need self-control when it comes to their thoughts, actions, and desires. There are some extremely beautiful women out there that do not look real.
There is nothing wrong with as a man finding a woman beautiful. As a man, I can think “wow, she’s so beautiful” WITHOUT feeling any sort of lustful urge to engage sexually with her. I think it’s ok to delight in another’s appearance as long as the feeling is more aesthetic-joyful than ravenous/lustful.
@@mrepix8287 I know some people take it to the extreme and I see any acknowledgement of human beauty as sinful. I wish things like sexuality weren't shamed. I came across an opinion by Catholic that sexual attraction is of little importance and what matters more is the soul. Maybe some people are genuinely like this , but I felt like I was a terrible person if I cared what my partner looked like. I think the entertainment industry selects beautiful people to draw in viewers.
Woman in her 40's here. All women that I have known, including myself, primarily dress immodestly to draw men to her and for the male gaze. I'm not sure where Jason is getting this information from?!
A lot of women will push back on the idea. For instance, "I'm not wearing stretch pants to attract men, they're just comfortable." Especially women who are tired of being accused of immodesty.
@@michaelmicek I feel like the women that say that do a lot of self-deception. If comfort was the sole cause of the outfit, there’s far more variety in attire that would arguably be more comfortable and not accentuating the derrière and other provocative parts of the body. The women that say that may wear the leggings for comfort *and* like the way it makes them look, which has a social role. That doesn’t mean that every time they put them on they’re hoping to get looks and compliments, but it’s not like they’re unaware of the “secondary” purpose of clothing designed to make those parts of the body stand out. There’s also a temptation to oversell the “innocence” in the fashion choice, particularly when facing backlash about bad intentions.
Right, more or less conservative Christian women. Women whose clothing is reasonable by standards of the broader middle-class society but get accused by their co-religionists of immodesty. (It's not quite the same issue but my comments here are informed in part by the _Simcha Fisher Pants Pass_ .)
It’s definitely a double-edged street. Jason might be absolving the girls a little too much here; we can’t see they intentions. Gotta be real about these things. Emily Wilson has a great video on modesty. She redefines it as “classy.” We also have to be careful not to make too big a deal out of it, otherwise we risk missing the bus on the wrong side of the bed.
Self control is significant key as people differ with what causes them to lust. This is a poignant factor regarding ‘the woman’s fault’ camp… because one could be or think they are modest but it still could triggers lust in the heart of a guy. It’s relevant to guard one’s heart. Prov 4:23
With all reapect to the gentleman in this video, I would disagree with his emphasis. The "we need to stop blaming women for men's lust" take is a response to a fake problem (over-policing modesty) that doesn't exist anymore in order to avoid having the real conversation about the fact that, objectively, women's modesty both inside and outside the church is a massive problem. Low-cut tops, short shorts, miniskirts, bare midriffs, etc are commonplace even among Christians, and anybody who speaks up about it is a "creep" or a "prude" or some other terrible thing.
I think Jason does good work, but I find this take rather odd. It's not women's fault that men lust, each is responsible for his own sin. But if you offer an alcoholic a drink, you too are culpable for your own actions. Men need to be told to guard their eyes and seek chastity, and women need to be told to cover up. It shouldn't be a competition to determine who is most to blame. I'd also add, vanity is a serious problem for women. It is deadly sin, and should not be treated as an exception. What we need is courageous and virtuous women humbly admonishing their fellows, because it will only sound condescending coming from a man.
Going to have to push back on this one but Matt was onto it. He was just being polite. Men and women are different. We have different expectations. Fair or not, IDC. I just want to know the truth for we can move on in this sinful world closer to the Most High with less error and more time to serve Him. Women are held to a higher standard in this regard. Our bodies tell us. We carry babies for crying out loud. I don’t see it as a “punishment” to single her out. I see it as a reminder: hey! You’re made to be love by one man and many children. Act like it!
I loved that your conversation about nudity in art, and how there are different types of nudity and there are rules and demands made on artists as well as the viewer of the art which may display nudity. As a creative myself it's something I would like to know more about: how to portray nudity in a moral way.
I disagree that women dress immodestly for themselves or other women. Women who dress in immodest clothing know exactly what they are doing, even if it is to make themselves feel sexy; whom is this woman using to feel sexy? If she were the only human left on Earth, would she need to feel sexy to gain something? Of course not. At the same time, generally speaking, men's modesty must focus on our interior modesty/chastity. Women have a duty to men like men have a duty to women. If you have a boat with 2 oars and 2 rowers, if one isn't rowing, the boat goes nowhere. If a woman wears leggings out in public thereby exposing her nakedness, then the boat ceases it's upward trajectory. By the same token, if a man isn't modest in his thoughts, the boat ceases it's upward trajectory. We ARE our brother's keeper and we owe it in all charity to uplift each other and similarly have an obligation not to cause them to stumble. Furthermore, as Catholics we have an obligation to correct our fellow Catholics if they are acting sinful, "Fraternal Correction".
I agree, as long as one includes the nuance that a number of women do it unconsciously (are not self-aware) that they dress "sexy" to attract the opposite sex. One should also add the nuance that there's the possibility that not all women dress "sexily" to attract the opposite sex either unconsciously or consciously, but this number accounts for the exception to the rule.
It seems that there could be debate about whether or not what is considered modest/immodest is in the eye of the beholder as Jason points out when considering artistic expression. My daughters have anxiously complained to me about being cat called while wearing baggy sweat clothes, a messy bun, and no makeup. Of course we have to remember not everyone has been brought up learning about modesty. I was blessed to learn as a young mother that Humility and Modesty go hand-in-hand as seen with Our Lady Mary. I saddened to say that I believe it's shockingly uncharitable as well as prideful for you to presume that you know what any person may/may not be thinking when choosing a particular fashion statement. I think it's best to leave that judgment to God who is qualified to know what is the intention of someone's heart.
@@dianef6038 Although I would agree that I do not know what is in the heart of a person, and never would I make that statement, I emphatically say that when a woman dresses immodestly they absolutely know what they are doing. Your argument as to what is modest is explained rather clearly in the Holy Scripture as well as by the Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church. Just a quick overview; anything that reveals your nakedness: leggings, tight clothing that reveals the shape of your form in detail, pants on women as forbidden in the Old and New Testament, etc. My rule to my children is this: cover shoulder to above the knee and everything in between, nothing tight enough to reveal buttocks, breasts, or hips, no pants on females after 9th grade. As to you claiming I can't discern if a woman is dressed "modestly" because it is uncharitable; Jesus told us we would know a tree by it's fruit. I am given the obligation and duty to judge people by their fruit so as to know if I am to avoid them as given in Romans. What we can not do is judge their internal salvific nature, that is God's alone.
@@FullDottle I understand and agree that we are our brother's keeper and it is our responsibility to discern and inform ourselves and others. What I have issue with is that the verbiage you use comes across as self-righteous and judgmental. In one breath you say, "Although I would agree that I do not know what is in the heart of a person, and never would I make that statement, ... " in the same breath you continue by saying, "...I emphatically say that when a woman dresses immodestly they absolutely know what they are doing.." It appears that you are Inferring that you know that person's thoughts and intentions. Matt.7:1-3 warns us against judging others, etc. It's Luke 5:32 where Jesus says, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.", yet it seems to me that you continue to assume that all have read The Bible and been raised in its teaching. My advice is to recall the quote, "There, but for the Grace of God go I," and humbly acknowledge the great graces you have been offered as well as the grace to receive them.
@@dianef6038 Let me ask you a question; if you saw a person walking down the street with a pentagram on their shirt, would it be wrong to discern them as sinful in the aspect of dealing in witchcraft?
Go Jason, finally a christian who isn't just blaming everything on women and saying "men are men". That is something that actively turns people against religion. If more christians spoke like him, there would be way more converts to christianity, and less people leaving the religion.
Women go wherever the strong men are. More women are jumping from Catholicism to Islam because there are more strong males in that religion. Women are absolutely the cause of promiscuity.
I think you make a good point. For women, it is a whole different approach to say, women should dress modestly because boys/men are distracted, aroused etc. Than to say women should dress modestly out of love for the men who would be led into sin by their lack of modesty
I personally like the other kind of messaging, one that I haven't heard mentioned: women should dress modestly because that represents their value as daughters of God, their integrity as human persons, body and soul. It's also a sign of self- respect, that you don't want to objectify your own body. The not wanting to be objectified by others is further aspect, but first is don't self-objectify in the first place. Then if you have self-respect and integrity, then you are in the place to care for others (and not wanting to aggrevate them in their vices or sins).
@@joane24 I agree, we don't hear that kind of messaging enough. The point I was trying to make comes from the pushback by women who equate calls for modesty as "bodyshaming" and why should they have to dress a certain way because men can't control themselves.
I have never dressed imodestly but I have dressed up to look good. I always thought that dressing imodestly was an act of provocation, and therefore putting yourself in danger. As a man could you tell me if men see immodesty as provocative. It's ok if you don't want to answer.
@@outoforbit- I think it depends on the man. Let me explain by using a less emotionally charged example. Probably 99% of the people could watch a violent movie and not be urged to act violently. But for the 1% that will, should we not try and curb violence in the media? Whether you consider that we are a fallen race, or the fact that we have an evolutionary past, certain aspects of a woman's appearance will have an impact on men. Like everything else, some men are better at regulating their behavior than others. And like other areas, some men don't feel the need to. That's my opinion for what it's worth.
There are immodest forms of dress for men that need to be avoided, like muscle shirts and anything too tight. Thank you for saying that women should not be blamed for man’s lust.
I agree! I’ve even seen young priests that are into lifting weights wearing tight clothes. And all the girls fawn over them. I consider that very immoral and immodest for men
Jason Evert is simping hard and making vast generalizations that frankly dont hold up to the smell test. Women dress sexy for straight women???? 😂 Both are at fault, you can't offload the sin of immodesty, we must instead, as Matt and Aquinas says, admonish both in love, the luster and the lustily dressed.
Most people have been affected by a sexualized culture. Men are trained to become addicts early on for other people’s gains. Women have been pulled into that vacuum of aspiring to immodesty, thinking that was the apple to be desired to make one glorious. In the end the woman calls Adam to partake of the apple, and then here we are back to square one. Fortunately, Christ is with us. I pray for an increase in modesty in the world, that more fathers and mothers speak up and share their experiences with the young generation.
🤔🤔🤔 When men walk around shirtless, do women find that attractive? I could just be the abnormal one, because I actually find that offensive. I find men who are covered up with non-body-hugging clothes more classy and more attractive. Abnormal me.
I totally concur. Often discussions about modesty seem to center around women's clothing. And very often that's coming from men, as they're focusing more on policing women then their own thoughts. It's shifting the blame. And the robbery and jewelry comparison is perfect. I'm not denying that many of modern female fashion is immodest and that many women could hmm adjust their clothing style, but let's face it, how many of women who wear very provocative and revealing clothing are practicing Catholic women? Because my women friends from the church and church groups (in various ages, also young!), don't even wear such suggestive revealing clothes. And again, I agree, the lust in the eye/heart of the beholder. Also, the perception of woman as a seductress is quite often (not always) magnified by male gaze, it's male perception and seeing what he wants to see. I see/hear many of my women friends actually grossed out by the many sexual advances they get (granted, these 'advances' are not from pious Catholic men either). It used to be considered highly disrespectful for a man to treat women in an objectifying way, quickly suggesting intimate encounters, etc. - and again, I know it's not pious men who do this, now I'm just talking about the general state of our culture and how many people interact nowadays. And then these men again blame women for the men in disrespecting women. Coming back to the eye/heart of the beholder. Even if a man would be closed in the elevator with half a dozen of very enticing women and behaving in a provocative way, it's still his responsibility for his own actions, in how he engages with them. I only hope that those who are on the right path, are believing and practicing the faith, can see their own responsibilities. In the end, Adam's sin was greater than Eve's. Men have this weakness from the original sin to blame women for their own sin. (Women also shift blame away from themselves, we're no better, just different). It's something that men should be more aware of, that being the leader and provider starts first from one's own moral order. St JPII was actually writing very nicely about men's responsibility to control his own lust, and for taking the responsibility for his encounters with women. Maybe I'm going a bit away from them topic of modesty, but it's related. In the end, modesty also starts in the mind and heart. External clothing, external presentation, is just the end stage of it. And as Jason mentioned, it's also a matter of speech, behavior, etc.
Sadly, there are many poorly catechized women. In my parish, I would see some adult (in their 40s, it seems) women wearing skimpy shorts and spag traps to mass. Some younger girls would also dress very inappropriately, and they are with their parents and I would think why their parents are not 'educating' them. Hard to say.
@gangarithewanderer8570 Have you looked up what's in the Catechism about modestly? There's also nothing 'specific' respect for directing to the heart and intentions. You're saying the women dress "wh***sh", it's a very loaded statement. Do you think they are wh***s or want to look like ones? What's happening in YOUR heart when your calling their look so? That was the whole point of the Jason's speech, and it's in the accordance with the Catechism. Again, it really isn't and shouldn't be about policing women's clothing. It's not about the length of the skirt or whatnot. It really isn't what modesty is about, because it's too relative. It used to be not long ago that woman without head covering was immodest, most of my great-grandmother generation wore head scarves or other head coverings. And no, I'm not saying it's not if one dresses to the church not very differently as going to the beach. It isn't. But do you think calling women "wh***sh" is modest on your part? I bet they simply don't know better, they just wear whst they deem standard clothing within their culture, and they don't wake up Sunday morning "I'm gonna dress like a prostitute specially for the mass to entice men". And look at your heart casting the judgement, or how some men would respond to women with lust and blame them for it, rather than looking at their own soul and what is happening there; men are the first ones who are responsible for controlling their own responses, women's consideration to men's responses is only secondary (which was also the point of the video).
@@therese_paula Again, the whole point of the modesty in the video was that it's not really about clothing, and definitely not about the centimeters of how much body is revealed. And btw that's how it is in Catechism as well, thats it's about intention, no vanity, etc. But anyhow. Are they, these women and girls dressing intentionally in a specifically 'sexy' way? Or are they vane? I btw only very rarely see that a woman would be wearing "skimpy shorts," to mass. I saw once or twice young tourist girls (I guess they weren't planning on coming to mass but they did). It generally doesn't happen, and definitely isn't habitual. However, I also wouldn't consider it immodesty (in the case of these particular girls I saw) in that sense that they weren't trying to flash off their body to distract others at mass, they weren't otherwise lavishly clothes, no make up, etc. Modesty/immodestly is really about the intention. Was is appropriate for a mass? No, it wasn't. While appropriate dress code is also a part of modesty, but again in reference to intention, are you/they intentionally break it for eg their own vanity etc.? Morality of an action lies in the intention. And there's also two issues: being immodest and judging someone of being immodest as a judgement of their intentions. One can also be fully covered and yet dressed immodestly, including in a sexualized way. It's more about the style one projects, what message one wants to convey with the way they dress. If anything I totally agree that modern culture and fashion is terrible in what clothing it promotes, what style, etc. No argument here. Perhaps the general message to women should be that they don't have to wear revealing clothes to fit in with the trends to be beautiful, because their real beauty lies elsewhere. But that's unfortunately not the messaging they get wherever they look. But discussions of modesty are really too much focused on counting the centimeters of length, instead of a real issue which is the intention of what you project about yourself and why.
@gangarithewanderer8570 You're still missing my point and the point of the video. Also, you're conflating two things, the cultural norms (propagating immodest fashion) and individual moral choices. You're quick to stone the woman caught in adults but are you yourself pure enough to be casting stones? If you really care about women and women's modesty, you wouldn't be going around calling "wh***", but you would be telling them they're beautiful and valuable without flaunting sexuality, which should be protected the most since it is valuable. Not calling their style "wh***", because if anything, that shows more about your heart than theirs, and you level of contempt towards them. (Not to mention that the insult of using a vulgar name for a prostitute is wrong and uncharitable on so many other levels - take it from someone who does the ministry to 'sex workers' and actually visits these places talks to these women, needless to say it's heartbreaking).
@gangarithewanderer8570 Btw, you're also accusing me of being ingenous /or incensere, from the context?/ (in the previous post). For the record, I don't dress 'sexy', or whatnot. I definitely don't feel the need to look sexually provocative or something. I also have been blessed with a vocation of virginity/celibacy for the Kingdom of God, so here's also that.🤷♀️ And, as mentioned, I also do ministry to 'sex workers,' so it's definitely more on the extreme side of the spectrum. So, combinging all that, I guess I can say a word or two about the subject. And btw, I do that ministry with a male partner, and he's very much able to go into the brothels with me and not judge the women there for being "wh***s" or lust after them. He's virtuous, yes, and it indeed requires lots of graces from God, but I'm adding this, to share that it's possible and it's where the aim is: charity and love, not contempt or (more to the topic on the video), lust. And that's not even towards women who may look "wh***ish" but they're indeed of that 'profession.' Charity, not contempt or lust. My point is, before talking about modestly of someone external to a man, men should think about their own, internal, modesty (and charity) first. I don't like how the subject of modesty often is very attacking towards women by men, who are concerned more about not being able to deal with their own lust and quick to blame women only. No, I'm not saying that women have absolutely no culpability here, but they have it much, much less, than men often say they do, and it's actually men who are typically 'unchecked.' And btw, who are YOU, to shame women? Who are you, to cast stones? As was said in the video, the robbery is still the culpability of the robber. As for charity, shaming and insulting others isn't charity. Teaching and instructing shouldn't be done in an uncharitable and bashing way, rather lead by example in virtue.
dang. I would have loved to have shared this video, but unfortunately it didn't actually contain modesty advice for men as the title implied. I was excited to hear his thoughts about how modesty applies to intentions, speech, dancing, etc. after he brought it up, but then he just began groveling and apologizing for asking women to be modest. :(
I was left expecting a bit more on the male modesty. Being a neoconvert, I know I am a bit of an ogre, mildly foul-mouthed and unbehaved. When my spiritual life is good order, things get better, but unhappily I fall to lust quiten often (and gluttony, and....)
If women had a problem with fancy vehicles or good beer??? In the garden we were Both naked yet innocent. The problem is wanting what is not ours to have. Custody of the heart. Women dress to be beautiful, mostly. They are expressing their feminine qualities We are to cherish and uphold and protect one another .
Yeah it's gg in the West with regards to dress. I'm in my early 20s and, at this point, girls my age will dress immodestly even when it's cold. When they'd rather show off than be warm, you know the culture is in the sewer.
This whole idea of praying to God in gratitude for the woman's beautiful body is a modern development. The saints cut the temptation off immediately by flight, not by trying to think about the object of temptation in a new way.
There is nothing sexier than a well dressed man. Modest, not wrinkled, not scuffed or worn out shoes, good fitting clothing - not baggy but not tight either. Modesty is sexy. Leave things to the imagination, not displayed for the world to see all your bits.
Yeah based on the comments from women and the quote of Aquinas it's pretty clear this guy missed the mark. He's just simping for his audience which is mostly women.
I dress for me..most happy when women acknowledge a great coat or shoes, & pleased if another item attracts a man’s interest-either or modesty always presents well & respects all in the room..underscoring Jason’s p.o.v. , of maintaining a respectful thought pattern within the moment
I think the guy making his case regarding that we should battle lust with love was such a wonderful message but his problem regarding "women aren't dressing for guys but for girls" that still needs to be checked and balance. Most women I know would admit atleast the honest one's that women do indeed dress provocatively for male's attention and if Thomas Aquinas is ever quoted before we ever say he is wrong we should ask that of ourself.
Can we talk a little about finding and affording modest, well-made clothing for women these days? As a woman, I do not want fast fashion or immodest clothing. I love in a decent sized city in Canada. Here are my options for modest clothing: search thrift stores for ages to find something that fits me, shop at the elderly women's clothing store, or ship ($$$) modest clothing from the states. I'm not kidding. And don't even get me started on maternity clothing. There are NO maternity clothing stores in my city, except for a small section in Walmart. There are over 170000 people in our city, and that's all we have! I ordered what I thought were normal cotton maternity T-shirts from Amazon, and what I got were slinky, skin-tight material that we paid way too much for. If you see a woman with a poorly home-made dress at Mass, leave her alone, that is a woman who is fed up with the sad few options left to her.
This is kind of tangential, but I disagree with the idea that people don't talk about men's lust but only blame women. Literally, in every conversation you have about modesty someone mentions it, and it has been that way from the Bible onwards and in every sermon I'm aware of. It's the equivalent of how when you talk about the abuse of women, someone always says that nobody talks about male victims of abuse, and I'm like, yes we do, I hear about it every day of my life lately. Or how when talking about veganism people always say "vegans don't know about animals killed during farming", and it's like, I don't know anyone who hasn't heard that. Or how in any Christian video about sex they have to remind you that sex is actually good despite of what people have told you, and I'm like, I have never heard any Christian say that sex is bad in my life. It seems to me that people use "we don't talk about it" as a way of saying "I don't think this is given enough importance" or "I feel my problems are not adequately addressed" or "I'm being marginalized by being treated unfairly" or "this is not explained well enough". The latter are reasonable concerns, but 99 out of 100 times, it's been talked about a lot even if not to a satisfactory conclusion.
It may be hyperbole, or it may be you are unusually well informed. I know veganism pretty well, but the argument that animals are killed in farming doesn't ring a bell. (But then, I don't feel the need to get into arguments about veganism.) There are kids in confirmation class so have never heard that sex is good.
Even if women dress immodestly for other women (which doesn't make sense) they would still be doing it for vanity and pride, which cannot be justified in any way. Also, maybe the reason we put so much burden on women for dressing (in fact) immodestly is because nowadays they generally wear more immodest clothing than men. That's a fact that can't be denied.
3:48 You probably do, as would most men: Money. Expensive cars, lavish parties, and ironically multiple other women at your side would attract women. Modesty and humility goes hand in hand.
Jason is correct about the underlying root of lust, but he is shifting focus to that and not acknowledging that Saint Paul's 1st letter to Timothy expressly commands women to dress moderately. There is also another place in Scripture that says if we are doing something, even if it's permissible (eating meat), that causes another to stumble than we should give up our right to it out if love for the brother or sister who is stumbling because of our action. Having said both those things, mature Christian disciples need to know and appreciate the influence that they can and do have on others, especially when it comes to our outward appearance and presentation, and not shift the blame or focus off onto another person's lust problem (which we all have to one degree or another, which is a reason we don't all go around naked) instead of being on what we or they are doing to incite such lust in others. We all know the difference, including women, so blaming lust instead of our own immodesty is not helpful or wise. The immodest need to take the log out of their own eyes before looking at the speck of lust in the others. In Christ, Andrew
@@michaelmicek same could be said for the r opposite if a man was turned on by a modest dress of a woman: the woman would have to work through her virtues and mind during Mass
Funny he says that about jewels, but when the Bible is speaking of women dressing modestly it specifically refers to hairstyles and jewelry, not body parts. So there is that.
Interesting I was just considering this issue the other day. Why isn't someone speaking to men re modesty. TY for the effort on this. I say EFFORT because your guest focused on Women more than on men. MEN need to watch what they wear - they are often too immodest with their tight pants or shorts too short or speedo's etc... and yes women are triggered just like men are. But men also need to focus on regaining the virtue of modesty in their speech and reactions in society.
I think many girls dress immodestly unthinkingly, for example because they think it's practical or pretty or whatever. I've so often seen young girls wearing miniskirts and fishnet pantyhoses at weddings... I often ask myself if these girls don't have mothers to advise them? It's just embarrassing. We should teach girls to look their best, to look really beautiful. (My husband has a niece who would be strikingly beautiful if she only knew and would stop wearing black leather or whatever....)
That didn't really say much. Just... don't lust? Ok.... but that's purity, not modesty. There's a difference. Modesty is the virtue in which one regulates his or her externals. Therefore, it is more objective than subjective. Obviously it's subjective too, but only in so far as we intend or omit to intend to regulate our externals. Externals can include how we dress, how we talk, how we eat, even how we walk or laugh. Also, St. Anthony Mary Claret, while blaming men for their lust, especially blames the women who incited them to lust by their clothes. It's called the sin of scandal. So, while you can't "make" someone sin, you can sure help out the process.
Women definitely dress for men though. It's somewhat absurd having to restate the logic because it is so obvious, but I'll do it. Women think dressing immodestly gives them a better chance to find a man therefore that's why they do it. lol I'm not saying they don't dress to impress other women, but it's just wrong to say they don't dress for men.
I would have loved a littlebit more emphasis on modest language and habits. I feel like men should be more thoughtful to speak more modest and act more modest the same way women should dress modest. In regards to how women are more attracted to a man’s character then his looks and men are more strongly drawn to a woman’s appearance, this should be the places where we need to be modest!
Tbh priests have the best deal: wear shorts and a t shirt your entire life and just through a cassock on top. It’s the best. Pants are the worst, so uncomfortable.
Adam and Eve were running around naked in their original state with no lust involved, it was only after they consumed the fig from the Tree of Death that it changed, sin and death entered G_d's creation. This is why when Jesus is on His way to His Passion says to the fig-tree "may no-one eat from you again." The original state of purity and innocence is what Michelangelo and other artists are portraying in their works at St Peters Basilica at Vatican. Catholics and Orthodox eat the "fruit" from the Tree of Life aka the cross, that fruit is the Eucharist. It is that Sacrament combined with the Sacraments which sanctifies us.
It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, though. Just like the serpent said, they didn't _die_ die. But on the other hand, knowledge of good and evil, thinking you know better than God, refusing to accept his will in particular in suffering
Oh I disagree, women do indeed wear clothes because they enjoy the attention of men. I say this as a woman who used to do that before I was saved by the Lord. Many women like the power and most importantly the affirmation that they receive from men (and perhaps sometimes from women as well). Women can desperately want affirmation in the absence of a strong relationship with Jesus Christ. After I was saved, the Lord taught me to dress modestly and appropriately as a way to honor Him and love my neighbor well.
I mean, they're both issues, right? To say that the problem is *only* with the man, is that not just going to the opposite extreme? To me it seems obvious that men and women should both practice modesty in actions and appearance. Looking through the comments from both men and women, it seems clear that women dress both for male and female attention (both in their respective ways), which is to a different proportion for each women, and to a different proportion again for each occasion. This is a problem that everyone falls into at some stage. They look at the common argument, notice that it's not right, and so immediately go to the opposite extreme, as if to entirely dismiss the initial argument. Everything in life should be viewed holistically, keeping in mind multiple factors with any given subject. Tunnel vision is not the answer.
Dress in a way that glorifies the Lord. If the intent of the heart is to turn heads or gain attention from people then that would be bad. Dressing to be seen or seduce does happen often. And it is more than just clothes, ie. behavior, flirtation, etc. It has a lot more to do with pursuing purity of heart than a specific guideline, in my opinion.
You're ARGUING AGAINST OUR LADY HERSELF and ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM who said that modesty is a WOMEN'S ISSUE! "YOU carry YOUR snare everywhere, and spread YOUR nets (i.e. legs) in all places. YOU contend that YOU didn't cause men to sin, YOU did not indeed through YOUR words, but YOU have done so by YOUR dress and YOUR deportment. When YOU make another sin in his heart, how can YOU be innocent? Tell me, who does this world condemn? Who do judges in court punish? One who drinks the poison (i.e. the man), or one who prepares and administers the fatal potion (i.e. the woman)? YOU have given the abominable cup, YOU have given the death-dealing drink, and YOU are more criminal than those who poison the body. YOU murder not the body but the soul. It is not to enemies that YOU do this, nor are YOU urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride." ~St. John Chrysostom, WOMEN'S MODESTY, Homilies of the Gospel of Matthew, p. 257.
So you are fine with nudity yet cleavage is unacceptable? Gotta love double standards. Jason brings up a good point. Also odd how he mentions how we don't talk about modesty for men, then proceeds to talk about women most of the time.
Yes I have to say this was still discussing women most of the time! Very little concrete examples were given of modesty not relating clothes and appearance.
@@nategraham6946 Adam and Eve were running around naked in their original state, clearly G_d had no problem with nudity, His original intent is that His creation is pure and innocent. It was only after they consumed the fig from the Tree of Death that it changed, sin and death entered G_d's creation. This is why when Jesus is on His way to His Passion says to the fig-tree "may no-one eat from you again." The original state of purity and innocence is what Michelangelo and other artists are portraying in their works at St Peters Basilica at Vatican. Catholics and Orthodox eat the "fruit" from the Tree of Life aka the cross, that fruit is the Eucharist. It is that Sacrament combined with the Sacraments which sanctifies us.
Hey, I see men dressing in tight clothing, and especially if they have an amazing build it is distracting, I have to kinda avert my gaze lest my mind wanders. I see this at mass sometimes . Or men walking down the street half naked. Yes, men can dress imodestly, and it can be a stumbling block . Just FYI.
"Women mostly aren't doing this to get a guy to fall" Seriously? Some women don't dress provocatively with the intent to get a man to lust? That's breathtakingly naive.
They are men who find a hijab sexy. The point is men find women sexually attractive and however we are dressed if men get sexually aroused it’s the women’s fault or women “tried to turn men on”. As a young woman I would be told how sexy I was when wearing baggy jeans, a t-shirt (not tight or cropped), no makeup and my hair in a ponytail. Bottom line, men find women very attractive, especially when you are young, they will hit on you wherever you are and whatever you are doing. Our biology shouts to the rooftops “fertile biological female!” and even modesty won’t protect us from men being inappropriate. I would have liked him to discuss how men can be modest in how they treat women. And yes women do dress for men AND women because women have status hierarchies based on appearance, virtue, taste etc. It’s just a biological fact that happens across the world. The praise you want from your outfit is from women, because you know as long as you are clean and well and look well presented men will like it. Men will find a young fertile woman attractive in a sack.
@@SteubenThursday In order to not be absolute, I wrote "some women." I also quoted him accurately, so as not to accuse him of absolutism. My point is that he is GENERALLY whitewashing women's motives, which is naive.
@@viviennedunbar3374 Not really sure what your point is, because I made no statement or minimization about men and our sinfulness, crudity, etc. Also, I call BS on your statement "however we are dressed if men get sexually aroused it’s the women’s fault or women “tried to turn men on”. This is a blanket statement that is unfair to the men (like Jason and Matt, and also me, for that matter) who don't think women are at fault, especially Christian men and when it concerns women who even attempt to be modest in their dress. Man, did I just write a run-on sentence, or what.
As a women all my life (not a trans) YES WOMEN do dress provocatively FOR the guys. Yes there are times they do it to impress the other women but they most surely do it Many that is, for the attention from the men.
Thank you. When I was in my 20s and I went out to nightclubs, of course, I dressed sexy to draw men's attention. d
Not trans? That's not what I heard.
@@efandmk3382 You don't know me so what you heard didn't hear is irrelevant
It's natural to want to feel desirable. When I covered up men didn't look, but when I wore leggings they approached.
It's good to take joy in actively denying those urges. You're sacrificing your human will for the glory of God. As men, we can lead by example with our own modesty so our sisters don't feel so put-upon.
I knew a woman that broke off an engagement with a man because the entire responsibility to not fall into sin was placed on her even though she was tempted too.
The idea that she was responsible to make sure she didn't sin AND that he didn't sin, but he was not responsible for either his or her own sin.
I think that this mentality contributes to why many women are so sensitive about the topic of modesty, because many women have been treated as though they were responsible for both their own sin and the sin of men, but that there is no responsibility (that can be seen by them) for men to make an equivalent amount of effort on the behalf of women.
People are making huge generalizations. Do people really believe that ALL women dress immodestly to ONLY get the attention of men? Seriously? I can positively say that’s not the case. Of course many women do, but not all have those intentions. Can we give a little grace to the girls who never had good role models or grew up without faithful parents to teach them what was immodest and what wasn’t? In my college years, some girls dressed just as provocatively at our all-girl events as they did when we were in co-ed situations. Speaking from experience, there were many times in my younger years where I didn’t care what guys thought at all, I just thought a certain dress or top was cute. I also can acknowledge that there were other times I was thinking about how guys would look at me. But both situations can be true. It is a two way street, Jason nailed it.
I think you mean “double-edged street,” but yes. It goes both ways
I have teen boys, they play sports- I encourage them not to take shirts off when they are working out, to avoid wearing short shorts, tight shorts...they even want to sunbathe in the front yard shirtless. yes , there is a great temptation to be immodest as a young man. If its hard for me to look them in the eye because they are not covering their bodies- I believe they should cover up! Girls check boys out, they use men, they look them up and down too. Modesty needs to be talked about in young men!
In my experience, men and boys on streets dress much more modestly than women and girls, who typically show off way more skin. This is especially true in summer. A shirtless man is not the norm on a street.
I was waiting for 6 minutes for tips for men how to avoid looking immodestly and they were just talking about how men need to play mind games with themselves.
@@adamfiser7645 Around here too. Though it seems in some places, particularly with lots of gym culture, men are more likely to expose themselves.
When he said, girls are dressing for other girls, and not for guys attention. My wife, who is a very modest woman laughed out loud. She said they are definitely dressing for guys attention. I am a table, top game, designer, and go to a lot of conventions with cosplay women dress for guys attention.
Actually many women do dress for other women, for some it's definitely more than for men. There's also some studies done that observe that. And anecdotally, I as a woman also agree, I've actually always dressed far more for other women/peer group etc., and very rarely for men. It's especially visible in terms of accessories and smaller details, most men don't even notice them, but other women do.
I'm not saying it's the same for every woman, and that some are like your wife, but some aren't.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Women ABSOLUTELY dress for men's attention. I think Jason has lost touch with how it feels to be a single human being who wants to be valued for their body as well as their mind and soul.
Hmmm... I would say it's a little bit of both. A woman dressing pretty is like a man owning a sexy car. Sure a man might enjoy women's attention it gets but it's mostly to awake men's jealousy/respect/adoration, etc. Same goes for women when they dress up. Except when it goes for a woman wearing VERY revealing clothing. That is purely done for male gaze. (talking as a woman)
@@joane24 Was your objective to "outdo" other women when it comes to looks? Or to look the prettiest? Or keep up with trends? I definitely do not want to be the ugly friend in the group. I dress up to match other women but I think on a subconscious level women are trying to attract male attention. It's hard for me to understand how wearing a tiny bikini has NOTHING to do with attracting men. I think I have a rather lax definition of immodest. If your breasts are spilling out of your clothing, I HIGHLY doubt you are doing this to compete with other women. I think it is for male attention.
@@IONov990 to me, not really 'outdo' others, but rather keep up with trends (or rather show that I do), I see it basically as securing (or showing off, in certain situations) your status. Not just in a narrow sense of an economic class or something (I'm not that great😅), but rather to show I have a decent taste, follow trends (not sleep under the rock fashionwise), etc.
Another aspect is implicitly following a certain dress code or style, it also sends a message of who you are, some of your values, etc.
I actually have a theory that in some/many circumstances when women do seemingly dress for men, they still do this to in end effect, impress their female peers (because looking desirably for men and having men's attention elevate the status in some female peer groups; in these cases the male attention is like a ego and social status booster, not a willingness to really date someone). Maybe that's not as often as I think it is, but I certainly observed this.
As for wearing a bikini,I do wear it, as majority of other women on the beach, and 99% of women my age. I honestly never thought about it in context of 'attracting men', I've always been wearing one.🤷♀️ One peace suits are typical for swimming pool.
In daily life btw, my upper parts would never ever spill out of the clothing🙄. And I also don't dress 'sexy' or 'hot', just normal.
The comment about women dressing for other women wasn't just about provocative clothing, but in general. And it's not news ever. Especially when it comes to following trends and accessories, men don't care about that stuff, rarely notice it.
Btw from my observation, only a very small % of women dresses provocatively or in a 'sexy' way as their go-to daily style.
Usually thats a signifier of a bit lower class, at least where I live. And it's also even for them, about adhering to certain social standards of their peers in terms of style.
For example, the long fake nails, I don't think men care about that or even like that, but it's one of the marks of being (allegedly) 'sexy'. It's kind of cheap looking, and that's what I mean by the lower class,but's done to look 'sexy' so sexually desirable by the opposite sex, but it's also about sending a message to other women.
Great point about modesty being more than just clothing!
I also wanted to say thank you for putting that point so well :) I've been trying to verbalize that exact sentiment to my children for at least 20 yrs. , and have often failed to be as eloquent as you. 6/7 of my children are girls😊
It’s nice to hear a man discuss men taking responsibility. As a girl who grew up super religious, I covered and covered and covered and was never even alone with a man until I was married and still was endlessly lectured about modesty. In my late teens I waited tables outdoors in a warm area and the owner wouldn’t let me wear shorts or roll up my shirt sleeves like everyone else because I was attractive it would “distract men.” Yes in our culture women dress provocatively but most men aren’t even trying to guard their heart, they’re looking for lust because they can just blame the girl, even if a girl has no intention of that. I wasn’t allowed to wear mid thigh shorts in blazing summer because there’s no way men could see a 19 year girls legs without being dragged into lust. 🙄 And please before anyone replies with bUt wOmEn, yes I know we’re soooo evil too. I’m just venting from my experience because it’s extremely rare to ever hear a man acknowledging this. ❤
While it is true that men have a responsability to take and to acknowledge, that should not make women believe that they have a pass to dress immodestly or to not cover. Oftentimes, I see women saying that, since men have the responsability to guard their own heart, then women should not be too bothered to cover. Well, that is wrong. Women HAVE the duty to cover appropriately, even if men also have the responsability to protect their own heart. So while it is true that men have the duty to not lust after you if you wear mid thigh shorts, you also have the duty to not wear mid thigh shorts. The responsability is shared by BOTH men and women.
@@vituzui9070 Don’t pretend as if your position is universally held. Some honest Christians can also believe that during hot summer days, a manner of attire that allows transpiration and heat not to cook a woman alive can very well adopted, while still holding on to the insistence that excessive showing of the body is wrong.
You're totally right. Jesus talked about committing adultery in your heart with a woman who is not your wife. He never mentioned what that woman dressed like. Also in Jesus's day, most women wore long dresses with long sleeves and a veil over their heads when outdoors. So it came entirely down to the man who was lusting after her.
@@theeternalempire7235 I agree totally when you say that, during hot summer days, a manner of attire that allows transpiration and heat not to cook a woman alive can be very well adopted. However, I disagree with the implicit assumption that showing parts of thighs is necessary for such attire to exist. Very light linen trousers or skirts, for example, perfectly do the job, without showing thighs.
@@theeternalempire7235 there's little to no correlation between having a manner of attire that allows transpiration and showing skin.
A man can be modest. He can put a looser swim shirt at the pool or not wear tank tops in the summer. Also he can also not wear anything too flashy or tight in general.
It’s hard trying to be a modest woman sometimes because no matter how modest you are, there’s always going to be somebody online saying you still aren’t modest enough. 😅 I’m kidding a little bit, but seriously. Almost every day I see something on “Catholic mom Instagram” about how pants are immodest, shorts are definitely immodest, and really women should just wear dresses all the time. I grew up with Bill Gothard style Protestant fundamentalism and I have no interest in bringing any of that legalism into my Catholic faith.
Yeah we don’t want to be puritanical about it
I think we Catholics should talk about looks and dress more positively. I am a member of Opus Dei and I learned that looking good, pleasing, beautiful can be an act of charity. If a woman looks beautiful, it elevates the hearts of those who see her. Beautiful means looking her best, wearing clothes and accessories that fit her complexion, hair and eye color and body type.
@@fruzsimih7214 I definitely agree, as long as you don’t mean I should wear a dress all the time!
If we’re discussing often un discussed elements of modest, one thing to note for men and women is that there is an element of pride in immodesty. Whether you’re dressing for yourself, the opposite sex, or the same sex, why? Pride is usually the root cause. Not always, there are good reasons to dress attractively, but there is often a deep vanity or pride or spirit of competition or insecurity and pride to compensate for it - especially in the unexamined and spiritually immature. Something to consider potentially.
A young woman I was interested in dressed in quite revealing ways during an evening (it was a couples dance party). And the whole time when we were dancing, she was looking me in the eyes with a sort of piercing curiosity, with some other guys as well. Over time, I had the sense that she was just seeing whether or not my gaze would move downward, away from her face. That was and is very saddening. Knowing a bit about her story, she was left quite brutally by her boyfriend of four years, maybe she didn't know that there were other forms of male attention, forms that cherish beauty of heart, mind as well as that of body, that there are better things to be had from men.
Together with so much confusion and woundedness from our pornified culture, I'm quite certain that this is not a rare phenomenon amongst especially younger women.
I have sensed the same thing sometimes. I think they do consider their body all they have to offer.
@@michaelanthony4750 It breaks my heart.
@@Quekksilber It inflicts further sorrow in the Immaculate Heart. Our Holy Mother has warned against immodest fashion in Fátima (1917), yet our standard of modesty in dress is in the '50s...
I don’t quite understand it more seems she was testing you … as she was observant to what kind of attention you were giving
but there is prob more to the story…
@@AshleyLoveland1739 here in Brazil, and I have no reason to believe it doesn't happen in other places, it is known that in certain high level places (discotheques, boites, whatever name) there are women working, when a man approaches they clearly state the fee for the service, if you get my drift.
I appreciate much of what he says here affirming the inappropriate burden and shame put on women for their bodies and the judgement of their intentions behind dress, and I loved how he explained the point of modesty, but I would have loved to hear more of a focus on what modesty looks like for men. Maybe it is there in the longer clip but for a video titled modesty advice for men, it still largely focused on female modesty
What do men do that women find unfairly attractive?
Especially unconsciously, and especially to women generally.
@@michaelmicek Men can be inappropriately flirtatious. I think modesty between the sexes is going to look different since men are more visually attracted and women are more mentally attracted.
@@pukupuku I certainly agree that a difference is to be expected.
Ostentatious displays of wealth and power might qualify, and especially confidence.
I suppose the aggressive flirting is a display of confidence.
So perhaps modesty in men is literally being modest in the sense of being humble.
Very interesting. I love C.S. Lewis' take on modesty and chastity in Mere Christianity too. He points out that 'modesty', in terms of clothing, can mean different things to different societies and different time periods while "the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times". I find it confusing now days, however, to understand what is actually appropriate and what's not, when it comes to clothing. Sometimes it feels like there's no actual societal standard anymore. I live in a very multicultural society with different groups of people with very different values. That's why I try not to judge others. Perhaps what they're wearing is considered appropriate in their circles. For example, does modesty mean covering your whole body, by wearing a burqa, covering your hair in public, wearing a skirt, not exposing your shoulders etc.? What some people find immodest, others might find quite normal and not at all triggering.
Dress in a way that brings attention to your face is one of the more practical principles I can think of when it comes to modesty. I think that's what religious habits do. And in some way, I think we laypeople could start from there and think about what makes them so good at drawing you to the person that wears it. Is it the simplicity? The amount of skin covered? The tone of the colors? etc.
@@Quekksilber Heavy colourful makeup? I don't think so.
As a tattooed man I feel better when I wear long sleeve shirts. I'm also treated differently. People do judge and even my behavior is different when I'm walking around in a T-shirt with my tattoos hanging out. I got them one summer while I was backsliding and now it's been a huge burden as a grown man. Guess I have to deal with it.
My reason for dressing modestly is not that deep, to be honest. I just want to be respected and it's easier if you present yourself respectfully.
This is an interesting conversation. I’ve always been very modest in my dress as a woman. And although we should be modest to not let our fellow brothers fall to sin, people still have to take accountability for their thoughts and desires.
What about features that are considered by some to be extraordinarily beautiful? Like eyes, smile, hair? We all have seen people that are out of this world beautiful. I don’t think I am a beauty but even I have experienced being all covered up in layers of clothes, and putting my hair down and wear a bit of makeup, I can get all sorts of male glances. We cannot fall into extremism when it comes to that.
Thank you for dressing modestly. I think dressing in a way that brings the attention to your face, that makes it easy to meet you at your eyes is pretty much the essence of dressing modestly.
I don't know the intentions of everyone looking, but I think it is also within the human human heart to stop the things we are doing when we see a beautiful sunset, or a little flower springing up between the stones. The same goes for a beautiful woman. And I think at least partly these could be some of the glances you get.
Yes I agree. I don't dress immodestly but I do like to look well.
There are some very voluptuous women that will never be able to hide their curves. I definitely think men need self-control when it comes to their thoughts, actions, and desires. There are some extremely beautiful women out there that do not look real.
There is nothing wrong with as a man finding a woman beautiful. As a man, I can think “wow, she’s so beautiful” WITHOUT feeling any sort of lustful urge to engage sexually with her. I think it’s ok to delight in another’s appearance as long as the feeling is more aesthetic-joyful than ravenous/lustful.
@@mrepix8287 I know some people take it to the extreme and I see any acknowledgement of human beauty as sinful. I wish things like sexuality weren't shamed. I came across an opinion by Catholic that sexual attraction is of little importance and what matters more is the soul. Maybe some people are genuinely like this , but I felt like I was a terrible person if I cared what my partner looked like. I think the entertainment industry selects beautiful people to draw in viewers.
As a man, I'll be wearing a barrel and paper bag from now on
No burlap sack shirt??? *GASP
@@SteubenThursday I hear that Brett Cooper finds barrels and paper bags quite attractive
Woman in her 40's here. All women that I have known, including myself, primarily dress immodestly to draw men to her and for the male gaze. I'm not sure where Jason is getting this information from?!
A lot of women will push back on the idea.
For instance, "I'm not wearing stretch pants to attract men, they're just comfortable."
Especially women who are tired of being accused of immodesty.
Jason is off the mark.
@@michaelmicek I feel like the women that say that do a lot of self-deception. If comfort was the sole cause of the outfit, there’s far more variety in attire that would arguably be more comfortable and not accentuating the derrière and other provocative parts of the body. The women that say that may wear the leggings for comfort *and* like the way it makes them look, which has a social role. That doesn’t mean that every time they put them on they’re hoping to get looks and compliments, but it’s not like they’re unaware of the “secondary” purpose of clothing designed to make those parts of the body stand out. There’s also a temptation to oversell the “innocence” in the fashion choice, particularly when facing backlash about bad intentions.
I think maybe he means Christian woman. I seriously agree with what he said and most of my girl friends agree as well.
Right, more or less conservative Christian women.
Women whose clothing is reasonable by standards of the broader middle-class society but get accused by their co-religionists of immodesty.
(It's not quite the same issue but my comments here are informed in part by the _Simcha Fisher Pants Pass_ .)
It’s definitely a double-edged street. Jason might be absolving the girls a little too much here; we can’t see they intentions. Gotta be real about these things. Emily Wilson has a great video on modesty. She redefines it as “classy.”
We also have to be careful not to make too big a deal out of it, otherwise we risk missing the bus on the wrong side of the bed.
What a beautiful and respectful conversation.
Self control is significant key as people differ with what causes them to lust. This is a poignant factor regarding ‘the woman’s fault’ camp… because one could be or think they are modest but it still could triggers lust in the heart of a guy. It’s relevant to guard one’s heart. Prov 4:23
With all reapect to the gentleman in this video, I would disagree with his emphasis. The "we need to stop blaming women for men's lust" take is a response to a fake problem (over-policing modesty) that doesn't exist anymore in order to avoid having the real conversation about the fact that, objectively, women's modesty both inside and outside the church is a massive problem. Low-cut tops, short shorts, miniskirts, bare midriffs, etc are commonplace even among Christians, and anybody who speaks up about it is a "creep" or a "prude" or some other terrible thing.
I think Jason does good work, but I find this take rather odd. It's not women's fault that men lust, each is responsible for his own sin. But if you offer an alcoholic a drink, you too are culpable for your own actions. Men need to be told to guard their eyes and seek chastity, and women need to be told to cover up. It shouldn't be a competition to determine who is most to blame.
I'd also add, vanity is a serious problem for women. It is deadly sin, and should not be treated as an exception. What we need is courageous and virtuous women humbly admonishing their fellows, because it will only sound condescending coming from a man.
Going to have to push back on this one but Matt was onto it. He was just being polite.
Men and women are different. We have different expectations. Fair or not, IDC. I just want to know the truth for we can move on in this sinful world closer to the Most High with less error and more time to serve Him.
Women are held to a higher standard in this regard. Our bodies tell us. We carry babies for crying out loud. I don’t see it as a “punishment” to single her out. I see it as a reminder: hey! You’re made to be love by one man and many children. Act like it!
Good talk guys. I've seen some pretty nasty debates on this topic recently.
I loved that your conversation about nudity in art, and how there are different types of nudity and there are rules and demands made on artists as well as the viewer of the art which may display nudity. As a creative myself it's something I would like to know more about: how to portray nudity in a moral way.
Modesty makes a way for love 👏never thought of it like that
Speech is one of the greatest modesty struggles for men
I disagree that women dress immodestly for themselves or other women. Women who dress in immodest clothing know exactly what they are doing, even if it is to make themselves feel sexy; whom is this woman using to feel sexy? If she were the only human left on Earth, would she need to feel sexy to gain something? Of course not. At the same time, generally speaking, men's modesty must focus on our interior modesty/chastity. Women have a duty to men like men have a duty to women. If you have a boat with 2 oars and 2 rowers, if one isn't rowing, the boat goes nowhere. If a woman wears leggings out in public thereby exposing her nakedness, then the boat ceases it's upward trajectory. By the same token, if a man isn't modest in his thoughts, the boat ceases it's upward trajectory. We ARE our brother's keeper and we owe it in all charity to uplift each other and similarly have an obligation not to cause them to stumble. Furthermore, as Catholics we have an obligation to correct our fellow Catholics if they are acting sinful, "Fraternal Correction".
I agree, as long as one includes the nuance that a number of women do it unconsciously (are not self-aware) that they dress "sexy" to attract the opposite sex. One should also add the nuance that there's the possibility that not all women dress "sexily" to attract the opposite sex either unconsciously or consciously, but this number accounts for the exception to the rule.
It seems that there could be debate about whether or not what is considered modest/immodest is in the eye of the beholder as Jason points out when considering artistic expression. My daughters have anxiously complained to me about being cat called while wearing baggy sweat clothes, a messy bun, and no makeup.
Of course we have to remember not everyone has been brought up learning about modesty.
I was blessed to learn as a young mother that Humility and Modesty go hand-in-hand as seen with Our Lady Mary.
I saddened to say that I believe it's shockingly uncharitable as well as prideful for you to presume that you know what any person may/may not be thinking when choosing a particular fashion statement. I think it's best to leave that judgment to God who is qualified to know what is the intention of someone's heart.
@@dianef6038 Although I would agree that I do not know what is in the heart of a person, and never would I make that statement, I emphatically say that when a woman dresses immodestly they absolutely know what they are doing. Your argument as to what is modest is explained rather clearly in the Holy Scripture as well as by the Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church. Just a quick overview; anything that reveals your nakedness: leggings, tight clothing that reveals the shape of your form in detail, pants on women as forbidden in the Old and New Testament, etc. My rule to my children is this: cover shoulder to above the knee and everything in between, nothing tight enough to reveal buttocks, breasts, or hips, no pants on females after 9th grade. As to you claiming I can't discern if a woman is dressed "modestly" because it is uncharitable; Jesus told us we would know a tree by it's fruit. I am given the obligation and duty to judge people by their fruit so as to know if I am to avoid them as given in Romans. What we can not do is judge their internal salvific nature, that is God's alone.
@@FullDottle I understand and agree that we are our brother's keeper and it is our responsibility to discern and inform ourselves and others. What I have issue with is that the verbiage you use comes across as self-righteous and judgmental.
In one breath you say, "Although I would agree that I do not know what is in the heart of a person, and never would I make that statement, ... " in the same breath you continue by saying, "...I emphatically say that when a woman dresses immodestly they absolutely know what they are doing.." It appears that you are Inferring that you know that person's thoughts and intentions. Matt.7:1-3 warns us against judging others, etc. It's
Luke 5:32 where Jesus says, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.", yet it seems to me that you continue to assume that all have read The Bible and been raised in its teaching.
My advice is to recall the quote, "There, but for the Grace of God go I," and humbly acknowledge the great graces you have been offered as well as the grace to receive them.
@@dianef6038 Let me ask you a question; if you saw a person walking down the street with a pentagram on their shirt, would it be wrong to discern them as sinful in the aspect of dealing in witchcraft?
Go Jason, finally a christian who isn't just blaming everything on women and saying "men are men". That is something that actively turns people against religion. If more christians spoke like him, there would be way more converts to christianity, and less people leaving the religion.
Women go wherever the strong men are. More women are jumping from Catholicism to Islam because there are more strong males in that religion. Women are absolutely the cause of promiscuity.
Wait, did you say that some women don't dress to draw attention in the form of lust... Have you ever spoken to a woman?
Nobody judges women more than other women.
I think you make a good point. For women, it is a whole different approach to say, women should dress modestly because boys/men are distracted, aroused etc. Than to say women should dress modestly out of love for the men who would be led into sin by their lack of modesty
I personally like the other kind of messaging, one that I haven't heard mentioned: women should dress modestly because that represents their value as daughters of God, their integrity as human persons, body and soul. It's also a sign of self- respect, that you don't want to objectify your own body. The not wanting to be objectified by others is further aspect, but first is don't self-objectify in the first place. Then if you have self-respect and integrity, then you are in the place to care for others (and not wanting to aggrevate them in their vices or sins).
@@joane24 I agree, we don't hear that kind of messaging enough. The point I was trying to make comes from the pushback by women who equate calls for modesty as "bodyshaming" and why should they have to dress a certain way because men can't control themselves.
@@jeffreyportis9388 I understood your point. And I added something else, another aspect, to it.
I have never dressed imodestly but I have dressed up to look good. I always thought that dressing imodestly was an act of provocation, and therefore putting yourself in danger. As a man could you tell me if men see immodesty as provocative. It's ok if you don't want to answer.
@@outoforbit- I think it depends on the man. Let me explain by using a less emotionally charged example. Probably 99% of the people could watch a violent movie and not be urged to act violently. But for the 1% that will, should we not try and curb violence in the media? Whether you consider that we are a fallen race, or the fact that we have an evolutionary past, certain aspects of a woman's appearance will have an impact on men. Like everything else, some men are better at regulating their behavior than others. And like other areas, some men don't feel the need to. That's my opinion for what it's worth.
I like the idea of Jason trying to seduce someone by putting on a cowboy hat
😂
@@Becca_Lynn 😂
@@Becca_Lynn I was picturing him in the old fashioned police uniforms over here in Europe
There are immodest forms of dress for men that need to be avoided, like muscle shirts and anything too tight.
Thank you for saying that women should not be blamed for man’s lust.
I agree! I’ve even seen young priests that are into lifting weights wearing tight clothes. And all the girls fawn over them. I consider that very immoral and immodest for men
A muscle shirt is fine to wear at gyms and beaches
I think man spreading is immodest.
@@alqoshgirl Yikes
Yes, alot of men nowadays are wearing skinny jeans and shorter shorts. I noticed some street preachers on Ytube wearing skinny jeans.
Great topic, thank you for sharing!
This is great advice for men who struggle with this sin.
Jason Evert is simping hard and making vast generalizations that frankly dont hold up to the smell test. Women dress sexy for straight women???? 😂 Both are at fault, you can't offload the sin of immodesty, we must instead, as Matt and Aquinas says, admonish both in love, the luster and the lustily dressed.
Most people have been affected by a sexualized culture. Men are trained to become addicts early on for other people’s gains. Women have been pulled into that vacuum of aspiring to immodesty, thinking that was the apple to be desired to make one glorious. In the end the woman calls Adam to partake of the apple, and then here we are back to square one. Fortunately, Christ is with us. I pray for an increase in modesty in the world, that more fathers and mothers speak up and share their experiences with the young generation.
🤔🤔🤔 When men walk around shirtless, do women find that attractive?
I could just be the abnormal one, because I actually find that offensive.
I find men who are covered up with non-body-hugging clothes more classy and more attractive.
Abnormal me.
Once I sat behind a man at Mass who was wearing the shortest shorts. Ridiculous. Men Really need to practice modesty of the eyes.
Jason, you are brilliant 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I totally concur. Often discussions about modesty seem to center around women's clothing. And very often that's coming from men, as they're focusing more on policing women then their own thoughts. It's shifting the blame.
And the robbery and jewelry comparison is perfect.
I'm not denying that many of modern female fashion is immodest and that many women could hmm adjust their clothing style, but let's face it, how many of women who wear very provocative and revealing clothing are practicing Catholic women? Because my women friends from the church and church groups (in various ages, also young!), don't even wear such suggestive revealing clothes.
And again, I agree, the lust in the eye/heart of the beholder.
Also, the perception of woman as a seductress is quite often (not always) magnified by male gaze, it's male perception and seeing what he wants to see. I see/hear many of my women friends actually grossed out by the many sexual advances they get (granted, these 'advances' are not from pious Catholic men either).
It used to be considered highly disrespectful for a man to treat women in an objectifying way, quickly suggesting intimate encounters, etc. - and again, I know it's not pious men who do this, now I'm just talking about the general state of our culture and how many people interact nowadays. And then these men again blame women for the men in disrespecting women.
Coming back to the eye/heart of the beholder. Even if a man would be closed in the elevator with half a dozen of very enticing women and behaving in a provocative way, it's still his responsibility for his own actions, in how he engages with them.
I only hope that those who are on the right path, are believing and practicing the faith, can see their own responsibilities. In the end, Adam's sin was greater than Eve's. Men have this weakness from the original sin to blame women for their own sin. (Women also shift blame away from themselves, we're no better, just different). It's something that men should be more aware of, that being the leader and provider starts first from one's own moral order.
St JPII was actually writing very nicely about men's responsibility to control his own lust, and for taking the responsibility for his encounters with women.
Maybe I'm going a bit away from them topic of modesty, but it's related.
In the end, modesty also starts in the mind and heart. External clothing, external presentation, is just the end stage of it. And as Jason mentioned, it's also a matter of speech, behavior, etc.
Sadly, there are many poorly catechized women. In my parish, I would see some adult (in their 40s, it seems) women wearing skimpy shorts and spag traps to mass. Some younger girls would also dress very inappropriately, and they are with their parents and I would think why their parents are not 'educating' them. Hard to say.
@gangarithewanderer8570 Have you looked up what's in the Catechism about modestly? There's also nothing 'specific' respect for directing to the heart and intentions.
You're saying the women dress "wh***sh", it's a very loaded statement. Do you think they are wh***s or want to look like ones? What's happening in YOUR heart when your calling their look so? That was the whole point of the Jason's speech, and it's in the accordance with the Catechism.
Again, it really isn't and shouldn't be about policing women's clothing. It's not about the length of the skirt or whatnot. It really isn't what modesty is about, because it's too relative. It used to be not long ago that woman without head covering was immodest, most of my great-grandmother generation wore head scarves or other head coverings.
And no, I'm not saying it's not if one dresses to the church not very differently as going to the beach. It isn't.
But do you think calling women "wh***sh" is modest on your part? I bet they simply don't know better, they just wear whst they deem standard clothing within their culture, and they don't wake up Sunday morning "I'm gonna dress like a prostitute specially for the mass to entice men".
And look at your heart casting the judgement, or how some men would respond to women with lust and blame them for it, rather than looking at their own soul and what is happening there; men are the first ones who are responsible for controlling their own responses, women's consideration to men's responses is only secondary (which was also the point of the video).
@@therese_paula
Again, the whole point of the modesty in the video was that it's not really about clothing, and definitely not about the centimeters of how much body is revealed. And btw that's how it is in Catechism as well, thats it's about intention, no vanity, etc.
But anyhow.
Are they, these women and girls dressing intentionally in a specifically 'sexy' way? Or are they vane?
I btw only very rarely see that a woman would be wearing "skimpy shorts," to mass. I saw once or twice young tourist girls (I guess they weren't planning on coming to mass but they did). It generally doesn't happen, and definitely isn't habitual.
However, I also wouldn't consider it immodesty (in the case of these particular girls I saw) in that sense that they weren't trying to flash off their body to distract others at mass, they weren't otherwise lavishly clothes, no make up, etc.
Modesty/immodestly is really about the intention. Was is appropriate for a mass? No, it wasn't. While appropriate dress code is also a part of modesty, but again in reference to intention, are you/they intentionally break it for eg their own vanity etc.? Morality of an action lies in the intention.
And there's also two issues: being immodest and judging someone of being immodest as a judgement of their intentions.
One can also be fully covered and yet dressed immodestly, including in a sexualized way. It's more about the style one projects, what message one wants to convey with the way they dress.
If anything I totally agree that modern culture and fashion is terrible in what clothing it promotes, what style, etc. No argument here.
Perhaps the general message to women should be that they don't have to wear revealing clothes to fit in with the trends to be beautiful, because their real beauty lies elsewhere. But that's unfortunately not the messaging they get wherever they look.
But discussions of modesty are really too much focused on counting the centimeters of length, instead of a real issue which is the intention of what you project about yourself and why.
@gangarithewanderer8570 You're still missing my point and the point of the video.
Also, you're conflating two things, the cultural norms (propagating immodest fashion) and individual moral choices.
You're quick to stone the woman caught in adults but are you yourself pure enough to be casting stones?
If you really care about women and women's modesty, you wouldn't be going around calling "wh***", but you would be telling them they're beautiful and valuable without flaunting sexuality, which should be protected the most since it is valuable.
Not calling their style "wh***", because if anything, that shows more about your heart than theirs, and you level of contempt towards them.
(Not to mention that the insult of using a vulgar name for a prostitute is wrong and uncharitable on so many other levels - take it from someone who does the ministry to 'sex workers' and actually visits these places talks to these women, needless to say it's heartbreaking).
@gangarithewanderer8570 Btw, you're also accusing me of being ingenous /or incensere, from the context?/ (in the previous post). For the record, I don't dress 'sexy', or whatnot. I definitely don't feel the need to look sexually provocative or something. I also have been blessed with a vocation of virginity/celibacy for the Kingdom of God, so here's also that.🤷♀️
And, as mentioned, I also do ministry to 'sex workers,' so it's definitely more on the extreme side of the spectrum. So, combinging all that, I guess I can say a word or two about the subject.
And btw, I do that ministry with a male partner, and he's very much able to go into the brothels with me and not judge the women there for being "wh***s" or lust after them. He's virtuous, yes, and it indeed requires lots of graces from God, but I'm adding this, to share that it's possible and it's where the aim is: charity and love, not contempt or (more to the topic on the video), lust. And that's not even towards women who may look "wh***ish" but they're indeed of that 'profession.'
Charity, not contempt or lust.
My point is, before talking about modestly of someone external to a man, men should think about their own, internal, modesty (and charity) first.
I don't like how the subject of modesty often is very attacking towards women by men, who are concerned more about not being able to deal with their own lust and quick to blame women only. No, I'm not saying that women have absolutely no culpability here, but they have it much, much less, than men often say they do, and it's actually men who are typically 'unchecked.'
And btw, who are YOU, to shame women? Who are you, to cast stones?
As was said in the video, the robbery is still the culpability of the robber.
As for charity, shaming and insulting others isn't charity.
Teaching and instructing shouldn't be done in an uncharitable and bashing way, rather lead by example in virtue.
dang. I would have loved to have shared this video, but unfortunately it didn't actually contain modesty advice for men as the title implied. I was excited to hear his thoughts about how modesty applies to intentions, speech, dancing, etc. after he brought it up, but then he just began groveling and apologizing for asking women to be modest. :(
Matt hits another one out of the park.
"What, no pajamas in public?
I thought this was 'Murica!"
#WalmartWear
@@JP2GiannaT Worse.
They started calling them loungewear and now they're everywear.
I was left expecting a bit more on the male modesty. Being a neoconvert, I know I am a bit of an ogre, mildly foul-mouthed and unbehaved. When my spiritual life is good order, things get better, but unhappily I fall to lust quiten often (and gluttony, and....)
If women had a problem with fancy vehicles or good beer???
In the garden we were Both naked yet innocent.
The problem is wanting what is not ours to have. Custody of the heart. Women dress to be beautiful, mostly. They are expressing their feminine qualities We are to cherish and uphold and protect one another .
Good advice... however. I have only ever heard priests talk about male modesty from the pulpit.
I so agree with Jason.
Yeah it's gg in the West with regards to dress. I'm in my early 20s and, at this point, girls my age will dress immodestly even when it's cold. When they'd rather show off than be warm, you know the culture is in the sewer.
This whole idea of praying to God in gratitude for the woman's beautiful body is a modern development. The saints cut the temptation off immediately by flight, not by trying to think about the object of temptation in a new way.
Matt falling deeper into the lifestyle.
I shop for clothing frequently and try to dress well. I'm not vain. I'm just ugly, and I can use all the help I can get.
“They don’t think like that, that’s not on the radar!” This brother has zero clue how the modern woman thinks and acts.
It seems me and Matt have been taking turns posting Jason Evert clips this last week...
It's my turn tomorrow, Matt!
There is nothing sexier than a well dressed man. Modest, not wrinkled, not scuffed or worn out shoes, good fitting clothing - not baggy but not tight either. Modesty is sexy. Leave things to the imagination, not displayed for the world to see all your bits.
Yes the word is "fetching".
Yeah based on the comments from women and the quote of Aquinas it's pretty clear this guy missed the mark. He's just simping for his audience which is mostly women.
I dress for me..most happy when women acknowledge a great coat or shoes, & pleased if another item attracts a man’s interest-either or modesty always presents well & respects all in the room..underscoring Jason’s p.o.v. , of maintaining a respectful thought pattern within the moment
I think the guy making his case regarding that we should battle lust with love was such a wonderful message but his problem regarding "women aren't dressing for guys but for girls" that still needs to be checked and balance. Most women I know would admit atleast the honest one's that women do indeed dress provocatively for male's attention and if Thomas Aquinas is ever quoted before we ever say he is wrong we should ask that of ourself.
Can we talk a little about finding and affording modest, well-made clothing for women these days? As a woman, I do not want fast fashion or immodest clothing. I love in a decent sized city in Canada. Here are my options for modest clothing: search thrift stores for ages to find something that fits me, shop at the elderly women's clothing store, or ship ($$$) modest clothing from the states. I'm not kidding. And don't even get me started on maternity clothing. There are NO maternity clothing stores in my city, except for a small section in Walmart. There are over 170000 people in our city, and that's all we have! I ordered what I thought were normal cotton maternity T-shirts from Amazon, and what I got were slinky, skin-tight material that we paid way too much for. If you see a woman with a poorly home-made dress at Mass, leave her alone, that is a woman who is fed up with the sad few options left to her.
This is kind of tangential, but I disagree with the idea that people don't talk about men's lust but only blame women. Literally, in every conversation you have about modesty someone mentions it, and it has been that way from the Bible onwards and in every sermon I'm aware of. It's the equivalent of how when you talk about the abuse of women, someone always says that nobody talks about male victims of abuse, and I'm like, yes we do, I hear about it every day of my life lately. Or how when talking about veganism people always say "vegans don't know about animals killed during farming", and it's like, I don't know anyone who hasn't heard that. Or how in any Christian video about sex they have to remind you that sex is actually good despite of what people have told you, and I'm like, I have never heard any Christian say that sex is bad in my life.
It seems to me that people use "we don't talk about it" as a way of saying "I don't think this is given enough importance" or "I feel my problems are not adequately addressed" or "I'm being marginalized by being treated unfairly" or "this is not explained well enough". The latter are reasonable concerns, but 99 out of 100 times, it's been talked about a lot even if not to a satisfactory conclusion.
It may be hyperbole, or it may be you are unusually well informed.
I know veganism pretty well, but the argument that animals are killed in farming doesn't ring a bell.
(But then, I don't feel the need to get into arguments about veganism.)
There are kids in confirmation class so have never heard that sex is good.
Did Cameron Bertuzzi come into the Church at Easter? I've been out of the loop for a while...
Even if women dress immodestly for other women (which doesn't make sense) they would still be doing it for vanity and pride, which cannot be justified in any way.
Also, maybe the reason we put so much burden on women for dressing (in fact) immodestly is because nowadays they generally wear more immodest clothing than men. That's a fact that can't be denied.
3:48 You probably do, as would most men: Money. Expensive cars, lavish parties, and ironically multiple other women at your side would attract women. Modesty and humility goes hand in hand.
Thank you.
Excellent video!
Jason is correct about the underlying root of lust, but he is shifting focus to that and not acknowledging that Saint Paul's 1st letter to Timothy expressly commands women to dress moderately. There is also another place in Scripture that says if we are doing something, even if it's permissible (eating meat), that causes another to stumble than we should give up our right to it out if love for the brother or sister who is stumbling because of our action.
Having said both those things, mature Christian disciples need to know and appreciate the influence that they can and do have on others, especially when it comes to our outward appearance and presentation, and not shift the blame or focus off onto another person's lust problem (which we all have to one degree or another, which is a reason we don't all go around naked) instead of being on what we or they are doing to incite such lust in others. We all know the difference, including women, so blaming lust instead of our own immodesty is not helpful or wise.
The immodest need to take the log out of their own eyes before looking at the speck of lust in the others.
In Christ,
Andrew
Mass Modesty for men: suit and tie, slacks and polo at minimum
How do you answer the women who say they really get turned on by a suit and tie?
@@michaelmicek same could be said for the r opposite if a man was turned on by a modest dress of a woman: the woman would have to work through her virtues and mind during Mass
Don't kid yourselves. When a woman dresses immodestly, it is to attract the attention of men.
Wish more men would see that modesty is something to be cherished. Especially for a woman. Women need to cover up.
Cover up how much though? And who gets to decide what's appropriate and what's not?
@@kathryn.wooldridge Exactly.
Funny he says that about jewels, but when the Bible is speaking of women dressing modestly it specifically refers to hairstyles and jewelry, not body parts. So there is that.
Interesting I was just considering this issue the other day. Why isn't someone speaking to men re modesty. TY for the effort on this. I say EFFORT because your guest focused on Women more than on men. MEN need to watch what they wear - they are often too immodest with their tight pants or shorts too short or speedo's etc... and yes women are triggered just like men are. But men also need to focus on regaining the virtue of modesty in their speech and reactions in society.
I think many girls dress immodestly unthinkingly, for example because they think it's practical or pretty or whatever. I've so often seen young girls wearing miniskirts and fishnet pantyhoses at weddings... I often ask myself if these girls don't have mothers to advise them? It's just embarrassing.
We should teach girls to look their best, to look really beautiful. (My husband has a niece who would be strikingly beautiful if she only knew and would stop wearing black leather or whatever....)
That didn't really say much. Just... don't lust? Ok.... but that's purity, not modesty. There's a difference. Modesty is the virtue in which one regulates his or her externals. Therefore, it is more objective than subjective. Obviously it's subjective too, but only in so far as we intend or omit to intend to regulate our externals. Externals can include how we dress, how we talk, how we eat, even how we walk or laugh. Also, St. Anthony Mary Claret, while blaming men for their lust, especially blames the women who incited them to lust by their clothes. It's called the sin of scandal. So, while you can't "make" someone sin, you can sure help out the process.
preach
Women definitely dress for men though. It's somewhat absurd having to restate the logic because it is so obvious, but I'll do it. Women think dressing immodestly gives them a better chance to find a man therefore that's why they do it. lol I'm not saying they don't dress to impress other women, but it's just wrong to say they don't dress for men.
I thought it's going to be about how men can avoid immodesty in their clothes.
I would have loved a littlebit more emphasis on modest language and habits.
I feel like men should be more thoughtful to speak more modest and act more modest the same way women should dress modest.
In regards to how women are more attracted to a man’s character then his looks and men are more strongly drawn to a woman’s appearance, this should be the places where we need to be modest!
I don't know why but Jason's body language was super uncomfortable during this on the verge of creepy.
So…it’s a no on the yoga pants then 😅
At least not the flesh colored ones.
Tbh priests have the best deal: wear shorts and a t shirt your entire life and just through a cassock on top. It’s the best. Pants are the worst, so uncomfortable.
Adam and Eve were running around naked in their original state with no lust involved, it was only after they consumed the fig from the Tree of Death that it changed, sin and death entered G_d's creation. This is why when Jesus is on His way to His Passion says to the fig-tree "may no-one eat from you again." The original state of purity and innocence is what Michelangelo and other artists are portraying in their works at St Peters Basilica at Vatican. Catholics and Orthodox eat the "fruit" from the Tree of Life aka the cross, that fruit is the Eucharist. It is that Sacrament combined with the Sacraments which sanctifies us.
It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, though.
Just like the serpent said, they didn't _die_ die.
But on the other hand, knowledge of good and evil, thinking you know better than God, refusing to accept his will in particular in suffering
Oh I disagree, women do indeed wear clothes because they enjoy the attention of men. I say this as a woman who used to do that before I was saved by the Lord. Many women like the power and most importantly the affirmation that they receive from men (and perhaps sometimes from women as well). Women can desperately want affirmation in the absence of a strong relationship with Jesus Christ. After I was saved, the Lord taught me to dress modestly and appropriately as a way to honor Him and love my neighbor well.
Though modesty is more than clothes, I do think men's swimsuits should have tops and nets again, and me should return to wearing undershirts.
I mean, they're both issues, right? To say that the problem is *only* with the man, is that not just going to the opposite extreme? To me it seems obvious that men and women should both practice modesty in actions and appearance. Looking through the comments from both men and women, it seems clear that women dress both for male and female attention (both in their respective ways), which is to a different proportion for each women, and to a different proportion again for each occasion.
This is a problem that everyone falls into at some stage. They look at the common argument, notice that it's not right, and so immediately go to the opposite extreme, as if to entirely dismiss the initial argument. Everything in life should be viewed holistically, keeping in mind multiple factors with any given subject. Tunnel vision is not the answer.
Dressing modestly has made no difference as a woman. It is up to both men and women to treat eachother with dignity.
Dress in a way that glorifies the Lord. If the intent of the heart is to turn heads or gain attention from people then that would be bad. Dressing to be seen or seduce does happen often. And it is more than just clothes, ie. behavior, flirtation, etc. It has a lot more to do with pursuing purity of heart than a specific guideline, in my opinion.
Does Jason still teach that oral sex is ok between spouses?
It’s my understanding that it is permissible as long as the “end result” occurs, to be politely vague, with a chance for a child to conceive
@@PaxChristi7 , you better talk to my priest!!!
@@Margoctober why is your priest the deciding factor here? Priests are mistaken or say stuff that's not church teaching all the time.
This is more of a Christopher West question.
Are you getting them confused?
@@michaelmicek , perhaps
You're ARGUING AGAINST OUR LADY HERSELF and ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM who said that modesty is a WOMEN'S ISSUE! "YOU carry YOUR snare everywhere, and spread YOUR nets (i.e. legs) in all places. YOU contend that YOU didn't cause men to sin, YOU did not indeed through YOUR words, but YOU have done so by YOUR dress and YOUR deportment. When YOU make another sin in his heart, how can YOU be innocent? Tell me, who does this world condemn? Who do judges in court punish? One who drinks the poison (i.e. the man), or one who prepares and administers the fatal potion (i.e. the woman)? YOU have given the abominable cup, YOU have given the death-dealing drink, and YOU are more criminal than those who poison the body. YOU murder not the body but the soul. It is not to enemies that YOU do this, nor are YOU urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride." ~St. John Chrysostom, WOMEN'S MODESTY, Homilies of the Gospel of Matthew, p. 257.
Beautiful.
I love how you named your newspaper after a subordinate female act haha
So you are fine with nudity yet cleavage is unacceptable? Gotta love double standards. Jason brings up a good point. Also odd how he mentions how we don't talk about modesty for men, then proceeds to talk about women most of the time.
@@SteubenThursday What about the intent of the original artist? God. And Matt was very opposed to any cleavage at all.
Yes I have to say this was still discussing women most of the time! Very little concrete examples were given of modesty not relating clothes and appearance.
@@viviennedunbar3374 Agreed, and that was after Jason said modesty isn't just about clothing, or lack thereof. Rather odd.
@@nategraham6946 Adam and Eve were running around naked in their original state, clearly G_d had no problem with nudity, His original intent is that His creation is pure and innocent. It was only after they consumed the fig from the Tree of Death that it changed, sin and death entered G_d's creation. This is why when Jesus is on His way to His Passion says to the fig-tree "may no-one eat from you again." The original state of purity and innocence is what Michelangelo and other artists are portraying in their works at St Peters Basilica at Vatican. Catholics and Orthodox eat the "fruit" from the Tree of Life aka the cross, that fruit is the Eucharist. It is that Sacrament combined with the Sacraments which sanctifies us.
@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker Wonderful essay yet completely irrelivant.
Hey, I see men dressing in tight clothing, and especially if they have an amazing build it is distracting, I have to kinda avert my gaze lest my mind wanders. I see this at mass sometimes . Or men walking down the street half naked. Yes, men can dress imodestly, and it can be a stumbling block . Just FYI.
A tight suit eh? Step aside men!
Christians shouldn't be so naive about women.
Pretty off base at 5:22. Come to my gym.
This is an astounding lack of understanding when in comes to the female nature and female sin. Sad.
"Women mostly aren't doing this to get a guy to fall" Seriously? Some women don't dress provocatively with the intent to get a man to lust? That's breathtakingly naive.
They are men who find a hijab sexy. The point is men find women sexually attractive and however we are dressed if men get sexually aroused it’s the women’s fault or women “tried to turn men on”. As a young woman I would be told how sexy I was when wearing baggy jeans, a t-shirt (not tight or cropped), no makeup and my hair in a ponytail. Bottom line, men find women very attractive, especially when you are young, they will hit on you wherever you are and whatever you are doing. Our biology shouts to the rooftops “fertile biological female!” and even modesty won’t protect us from men being inappropriate. I would have liked him to discuss how men can be modest in how they treat women. And yes women do dress for men AND women because women have status hierarchies based on appearance, virtue, taste etc. It’s just a biological fact that happens across the world. The praise you want from your outfit is from women, because you know as long as you are clean and well and look well presented men will like it. Men will find a young fertile woman attractive in a sack.
Costa 100 percent agree. This man is going against Catholic faith. What about MARIAN MODESTY????
@@SteubenThursday In order to not be absolute, I wrote "some women." I also quoted him accurately, so as not to accuse him of absolutism. My point is that he is GENERALLY whitewashing women's motives, which is naive.
@@viviennedunbar3374 Not really sure what your point is, because I made no statement or minimization about men and our sinfulness, crudity, etc. Also, I call BS on your statement "however we are dressed if men get sexually aroused it’s the women’s fault or women “tried to turn men on”. This is a blanket statement that is unfair to the men (like Jason and Matt, and also me, for that matter) who don't think women are at fault, especially Christian men and when it concerns women who even attempt to be modest in their dress. Man, did I just write a run-on sentence, or what.