Pakistan International Airlines
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- Опубликовано: 27 фев 2024
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I would call this flight a clown show, but that's an insult to honest, hard-working clowns.
yeah but nobody likes clowns so its ok :D
I guess real clowns act like real pilots
I'm just scared of the bald guy
The whole airline is a clown show. I would never get on one of their planes.
imagine telling your co-pilot that the atc will be impressed with what you have done just minutes before this...
21:15 The Captain says to the FO: " He (the ATC) will be surprised at what we have done." He was correct about that...
Yes, indeed - and he had no clue how correct he was.
If he was trying to save face and/or impress ATC with his flying skills, he failed. They were certainly surprised tho....
he probably said that when he saw the GS appear on the PFD. thinking that he had done enough to get on profile . little did he know it was the false GS.
Forget ATC, the whole aviation community is impressed with his/their actions. Just shocking
@@Colaeroimages Yes, impressed - but not in a good way!
In other words, Google's attempt to spare SOME advertisers' tender ears, meant it demonitized Juan's highly-instructive videos that sought to investigate why 106 people were needlessly killed. Thank God no advertisers were harmed in this crash due to Juan's intransigence!
I don't even understand who would be offended by this video. It is baffling.
@@Alex-vr8gw - I would suggest only airlines might not want to have ads on a video about airline crashes. However, how many airlines even have RUclips ads? I think I may have seen a Delta ad and maybe one for Saudi airline. In other words, airline ads are few and far between.
@@Alex-vr8gw nobody,google doesnt want content creators like blancoliro... they barely generate revenue from ads cause their viewers dont care to buy the shit advertised,they want clowns instead and their idiot viewers.
Google logic: Demonetize all content creators to "help" their advertisers, but then get upset when people use adblocks.
Big Dogs rule, Google is big dog.
Those who play here play by their rules.
Google thinks adblocking is a crime. Is it?
1) Thank you so much for reviewing this report and going over it in such detail. Your educational guidance helps save lives.
2) RUclips FAILS at their monetization program...educational content like this gets pushed under the fake AI driven/extravagant "throw money around like children" content. It's absolute bullcrap that you get hit while others can just go along their way. Such a double standard.
3) Keep it up, don't let them stop you from publishing, and know your community supports all you do!
Thanks Boyo!
Didn't fully understand the supposed reason for demonetization. But regardless of supposed reason it does not seem warranted. @@blancolirio
Boyo
Well said sir and I admire you for your concern and generosity.
It's the economics that fail. Video distribution is still just too computationally expensive to run on an advertising budget. There's no competitors to RUclips because the business model just doesn't work yet. Google has the best and cheapest (due to scale) infrastructure, and the best advertising connections on the planet - but they have never been able to make the site profitable from an advertising model. The one reason RUclips finally broke even a few years ago was because they added in other revenue streams such as premium, music, membership, etc. Also with recent machine learning advances they have by far the biggest set of video training data (and by that a bunch of audio and transcribed text data) in the world - so they have a ton of motives to keep the platform going, but no one else has any real motive to create a real competitive.
Also I dislike Google, but the monetisation restrictions really haven't been primarily their fault. The platform was always very open until Pepsi decided to create a boycott of the platform based on content. When they did this advertising revenue dropped by an order of magnitude, so Google really had no choice but to follow the demands of the advertiser's - Pepsi etc could wait practically indefinitely without advertising on RUclips, while Google would barely last a few years, and the creators were struggling after literally weeks. A few months later they even stopped enforcing the new rules, but Pepsi etc noticed this and started a second boycott that finally cemented in the new rules and restrictions.
I don't know what people expect from a private company running such a service.
I think within the next decade this will change though. The computational requirements have plateaued, but the hardware is still getting better and cheaper. In recent years we've already seen it come down enough that small subscription services are now possible (Netflix etc don't count because it's fundamentally different due to the library being MUCH smaller and explicitly known ahead of time). It should just be a matter of time until RUclips competitors can exist.
The only option is to wait. At least if you want to go with an unregulated private platform (other alternatives obviously have a whole host of other problems that aren't as easy to solve as a predictable technical solution).
@@rainscratch I think there are probably two reasons:
1) RUclips has anything with the crash flagged because of apparent potential for graphic crash footage (I don't know - I haven't gone looking for this)
2) RUclips thinks that there is a potential for advertising "abuse" because of the specific country many visitors of the video may come from (where there might be content farms who give certain videos views to drive up ad revenue.) Again, I don't see why it would apply in this case, but if Pakistan is a country they've flagged, and a lot of Pakistani viewers watch this, that could affect things.
RUclips's algorithms are bizarre in the best of times.
Im a professional pilot for nearly 18yrs. And ive never seen such a bizarre lack of airmanship like this before. Jesus.
I'm a sim pilot for 20 years. Never flown a real aircraft. Even I have better airmanship than these clowns.
No! Allah!
I have been a professional pilot of 45 yrs. I know never to set foot on a foreign airline without due dilligence, especially in a third world country.
Do you think he was committing suicide?
@@tumbleweed2240
No. Ego was his driving force.
“We can make it, god willing” is a wild thing to tell the tower in a perfectly operational airplane.
It shows that the FO was uncomfortable with what the Csptain told him to do but didn't speak up.
Insha' Allah can be a casual acknowledgement that we are all at God's mercy. I asked a coworker why he uses that phrase, and he said it just means as long as ill fortune doesn't strike.
We cannot interpret these things outside their social context.
@@j_taylortrue, but it still isn’t an appropriate transmission when we look at the greater context and speaks further to the lack of airmanship and discipline.
@@TheTechnoPilot your assessment here is both inaccurate and culturally out of context. God willing is such a common phrase it means nothing of value in this context.
@@Hans_R._WahlProbably.
I have a saying about nepotism, it makes sure a whole lot of unemployable people get a job. And in there lays the problem, so often these people get a job and they are totally unsuited, unskilled and uninterested in the work. In these sorts of countries a bribe is sadly often a way to pass a test. From this damning report I will certainly never fly PIA
I'm always scared to fly in a country like this. I loved e.g. traveling in India. But in india improving safety is when you add more religious trinkets to your car's dashboard. And India is probably still a lot better than Pakistan in that aspect.
What is going on with Boeing is also nepotism. I mean they certify themselves. From plug doors to software debacles. In the US things are kept together (sorta) because inspection and public understanding create an outrage which forces a company like Boeing to do something.
You've got massive problems already in the US, nevermind Pakistan..
Woke priority inclusion pilots ...
There are already numerous fake pilots in the airlines who will never become .....
The pilot in Command ...
Thank God a plane can be flown by 1 person...
Checkout the Hawaiian 737 incidents..
Almost the first woke tragedy..
It will come...
Million %
So doeS DEI, which is being used by US airlines to hire pilots… scary stuff, isn’t it?
I don't need this report to refuse to fly PIA or visit Pakistan
The fact that the airbus became airborne after scraping down the runway on the Nacells is quite shocking and a testament to quality aircraft.
But sadly could not overcome a rotten pilot. I use that term to comment on his skill, arrogance, and the system that put him into a pilot seat.
Airplanes are pretty damn tough.
Until it didn't.
I'm guessing that runway was unusable afterwards.
And knowing it was still possible to quickly land that thing afterwards.
My association with PIA went back a long way, when they sold some B720Bs to another airline, which then contracted a third party maintenance engineering operator to do a 'D' inspection. This revealed enormous corrosion problems. PIA records which came with the aircraft indicated that inspections in the relevant airframe areas had been completed on schedule.
It was obvious that these records were false. Fortunately the corrosion was caught before any failure.
As soon as we got discovery of the records the case settled for large sums, but that is not the point as safety had been seriously compromised.
That was over 30 years ago No wonder the nickname is 'Please inform Allah'
Signed: Airline Captain and Aviation Lawyer.
….and we read the comment section of “Pakistani Truck” channel, in which they make all sorts of mechanical heavy automotive repairs, using children, no safety, in the dirt. Those comments all come from westerners, all full of praise. We live in a pc world, afraid to look the truth in its eyes
Third world airlines..don't fly 'em..
Please Inform Allah 😂😂😂 i love it!
That aside, I'll travel by foot before i set foot anywhere near a PIA plane.
And as an airbus 32X tech, the fact that any of my babies are being treated this way pisses me tf off.
Was it Air Rhodesia's purchase when they were under sanctions?
@@davecrupel2817 I was fortunate enough to get a familiarization ride in the jumpseat of an A319. It was amazing how the aircraft hit it's airspeed and altitude targets perfectly as we crossed waypoints. From 10,000 feet down it was 100% focus and no chatter. Checks and crosschecks for everything. Very impressive.
The captain showed his lack of technical knowledge at every phase of this tragic flight, and the first officer wasn't confident enough to speak up. Horrifying.
I spent a couple of years working in Saudi. Ramadan is a bizarre time. Our approach was to try to stay in our compound during Ramadan. Pretty much everyone is highly stressed during that time. Muslims that are fasting are not just not eating, but not smoking or drinking fluids. They are hungry, dehydrated, caffeine or nicotine deprived, and thinking about nothing much more than sunset when they can resume normal functions. Muslims that are cheating and eating are stressed because of guilt. Non Muslims who are eating are REQUIRED to hide (no food or tobacco odors shall escape) while they eat, smoke, or drink for fear of starting a riot, but regardless, the animosity level from observant Muslims is palpable. To make matters worse, at sunset, the party starts and runs until the wee hours of the morning. Many of the people who are used to a night's sleep start the next day with little of it and start it all over again.
You don't do anything important during Ramadan
They sleep alll day and awake at sunset go to bed at dawn.
wow. what started out as a means of purification that would result in a person presumably getting closer to God has ended up doing the opposite!
I have worked with loads of observant Muslim colleagues, that were tired during Ramadan but still did their job. Granted they weren’t commercial airline pilots. But they were always courteous and good natured and they certainly broke their fast at sunset, but they also weren’t up all night partying. Yours or my experience doesn’t relate to every observant Muslim on the planet, generalising gets us nowhere.
@@Sweetlyfe 100% generalizing doesn’t.
I am a Muslim but have always fasted during Ramadan in majority non Muslim countries where life goes on as usual. Fasting starts at dawn so for the undisciplined this causes short nights. But with an early night productive effort is possible. But it definitely adds to stress and makes life harder. That is by design and it is also the purpose of fasting.
For most of history we were forced to be up and about during daylight hours to gather or hunt for food, and do things necessary to staying alive. We were physically stronger by necessity. But now, with the division of labour and artificial lighting, we need not synchronize with daytime and we have abnormally weak bodies (in the context of millions of years of evolutionary history). Mainly we are weaker, crankier and more tired. And most Muslims just do what is easy and sleep during the day instead of thinking about these things and disciplining themselves.
Another problem is Muslims falsely believe that religious effort during Ramadan somehow generates additional benefits (i.e. in multiples compared to other months). This leads them to redouble their worship, and hence waste precious energy and add to stress during Ramadan. In truth every month is the same in God's view.
I’m impressed that no punches were pulled in this report. The investigation team should be commended for their work. It is sad that this accident started years prior and was the result of many failures. The accident itself was just the final chapter in this story. I hope the next chapter is PIA’s turnaround.
Indeed, exactly - and: Hopefully yes!
This report is Pakistan in a nutshell. My poor cousin Khalid died. Rip brother.
In this accident?
20:39 xD
Pak people deserve better
RIP
@@mucdocI disagree, I've received thousands of scam calls from that country, they got exactly what they deserved
The problem with this mindset is that the pilot knows that in 17,000 hours of experience, with thousands of landings, no matter how unstable the approach, he always came through and landed the plane. Apparently, their training and procedures never made clear the incontrovertible, non-negotiable nature of limits, checklists, and procedures.
Indeed, exactly.
His mindset would have been 101% bold Pakistani ''I've been doing this for 17,000 hours & never had a problem''.....🙄
@@_Ben4810 Correct - I've seen this a few times in other domains. This is why we need to put in systems to identify and correct this behavior. The main failure here was not the pilots, but the system that they were operating in. We all know that rogue humans exist, we have to put in guardrails to avoid them from killing themselves and others.
survivorship bias is real
@@dermickthere were competing systems there of corruption, buddy buddy, macho dominance culture.
It’s very hard to defeat them. Really you have to wait 3 generations for it to start working
Can we all take a moment to acknowledge the Airbus build that is so robust that it can land gears retracted, grind along on the nacelles for "thousands of feet," launch again, and fly most of the way around a box pattern before finally failing? Wow. Strong build.
Airbus don't build the engines and nacelles, do they?
@@offshoretomorrow3346true, but the strength of the pylons, wing ribs and spars are down to airbus. So props to CFM and Airbus. I'm amazed the engines remained operational as long as they did. RIP
Well, you can kill all the flight computers, slam your engines into the runway, have one of them on fire, and still successfully land a A320 (in Mechanical Backup, since you no longer have fly-by-wire. and while ignoring the engine fire, since you need both engines for pitch control.)
Done during a training flight 23.02.18 in tallinn airport. Mentour Pilot has a great video about it.
I flew the narrow-body Airbus (319, 320, 321) for more than twenty years as a Captain. This story is unbelievable.
If you don't mind my asking, I was curious about something mentioned in the video and figured you'd probably know since you flew the aircraft: How did they manage to stall the aircraft like this while it remained in Normal Law? I thought the flight envelope protection system was supposed to prevent pitching up to an AoA that would stall the aircraft in Normal Law?
@@vbscript2with no thrust from the engines gravity takes over.
@@vbscript2 They didn't stall the aircraft, they only got several stall warnings. They might have made it to the airport (or at least beyond the houses) if they had accepted a belly landing on the second approach (not putting down the landing gear as it created drag) and had kept best glide speed, avoiding "mushing". But the images above the city show a high pitch angle.
@@peterhealey2668 Airplanes don't stall just because they have no engine power. They can glide just fine (though, of course, cannot maintain constant altitude and airspeed while doing so unless they're riding a thermal or similar, which is not really a thing in airliners.)
Stalling is not "gravity taking over," but rather the angle of attack reaching the point that airflow separates from enough of the wing surface that further increases in AoA lead to less lift rather than more.
The wings will continue to produce just as much lift for a given airspeed and AoA when the engines are not running as when they are and, on the flip side, stall can happen at any airspeed and any engine power setting, including full power.
At least here in the U.S. (and I would hope everywhere?) every student pilot practices simulated engine out approaches and landings. And by 'simulated,' I don't mean "in a simulator," but rather in a real airplane where the instructor pulls the power back to idle, usually without warning and often at relatively low altitudes (e.g. pattern altitude.) The student then lands the airplane with no engine power.
And, of course, there are gliders which don't have an engine in the first place.
What I was asking about was Airbus' flight envelope protection system. It normally actively prevents pilots from pitching up to an angle of attack where stall would occur. It would normally force the nose down to prevent reaching the critical angle of attack if the pilots started to get close to that.
They didn't not stall they out of petrol!!!@@vbscript2
I moved to Canada from Pakistan in July 2020 on a PIA flight. I am glad I am alive today. Also, its very Pakistani to be distracted by gossip and chit chat during serious work situations, even OR's in hospitals are like this. My country has a shameful culture
In 1989 I was a paramedic firefighter at KKIA Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. It was late in the year and we were sitting outside the main station airside watch take off and landings. A Pakistani International Airlines Airbus was on its take off roll. The station is positioned at the point that most airliners rotate. The PIA had rotated and was about 50 feet up when its number one engine exploded sending flames and components out the back. What happened next shocked everyone, instead of climbing out and following procedures, the pilot dropped it back onto the runway. Several tyres blew and he then hammered his brakes, we responded, you could hear tyres going. We entered the runway as did the crews from the other airside station. After travelling the runway we couldn't find the aircraft. ATC had instructed them to taxi off the runway, memories of 163, I saw the hydraulic platform truck bouncing through the desert. They had seen where it was. We got to the aircraft and the the tyres were fully ablaze. The aircraft was full of people and fuel but nobody was evacuating. The fire captain in charge ordered an evacuation but it was stopped by the police. Nobody was allowed to leave the aircraft until they had a perimeter set up. It was ten minutes before the first fire fighting foam was applied. The airport had failed its recertification twice that year. The aircraft had sunk into the taxiway as it melted the surface.
PIA was not allowed to operate Airbus aircraft after that incident as it came on the back of another fatal crash. I can't find any record or report of this incident.
That's terrible, does sound like the passengers only survived by luck and it could very well have been another 163. After the Manchester fire the outcome was that airliners should remain stopped on the runway until certain they're safe to taxi off...
Wow, that sounds sadly equally as horrific and inexcusable!
in 1976 same airfield a PIA aircraft landed hot, went into the overrun and the brakes caught on fire. The aircraft did not evacuate until after the fire trucks came after some delay.
Always fun when a Middle Eastern country's police force take over a situation they are perhaps slightly out of their depth on....!?!
Staggering to read this.
Thanks for posting
I had a friends father who was an aircraft mechanic for CP Air ( Canadian Pacific Airlines) working at the Vancouver facility at YVR. The airline had acquired a few DC 10-30 aircraft from Pakistan Airlines in the 1980’s. The aircraft had received bare minimum to no maintenance for years, the worst he’d seen so far in his entire lengthy aviation mechanic career. The interior’s were disgusting, and he told me it looked like the engine cowlings hadn’t even been opened in a very long time. The engines were in extreme need of service, the tail engines being the worst due to their positional height and difficult accessibility. He said it was a testament to the rugged tough DC 10’s design and their equally reliable GE CF-6 engines that somehow these severely neglected aircraft had not crashed. It was a lot of work to get these aircraft in perfect flying condition again and to meet strict Canadian standards over many night shifts. They got the job done and these 3 DC 10’s provided CP AIR with many more years of reliable service.
Praise to the Maint facility to take this turd on and get jt airworthy. I wrk for a major airline maint facility and we had a contract for a widely known cargo operation (B727-100’ -200’s)Man oh man….frames were cut, corrosion everywhere and they ended up pulling there acft out cause we were finding to many problems and costing them to much money…🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
I am an A&P here in the states and I do A checks And I can guarantee the are a lot of Acft close to that state of condition here too!
They sure don't make 'em like they use to now!
Man I miss CP. One of the best airlines in the world. Rode those big 10s across the country and even down to Buenos Aires. Thanks to your friend's dad no doubt
@@markthompson4885 Greed and corner-cutting are universal impulses.
The only difference between the US/UK/the west in general vs developing countries is that it's a *bit* harder to get away with in the west.
I think I'd have a heart attack or stroke if I ever got as many warnings and alerts going of as they did before they were within 5 NM of the airport in a simulator or a desktop simulation, yet neither of them was concerned enough to go around. My first instrument instructor (my dad, a former USAF F-100 pilot and at the time a B-727 Captain) said many times "Any time you are inside the outer marker (remember those?) and anything seems wrong, even if you can't put your finger on it, go missed. ATC protects the missed approach path for EVERY approach. Missing the ground is the default, hitting the ground (even to land on it) should only occur as the result of a series of specific choices to continue."
I went missed from just inside the outer marker one time on a clear, calm night...the needles were centered, the plane was properly configured, everything was going well, but I was alone and tired, and when the marker beacon flashed I thought, "Does this feel right?" and couldn't immediately tell myself yes. That's the only time that after I went missed the Tower asked why. I replied "It just didn't feel right." A few minutes later, maybe a little more alert, I shot the approach and landed. It was late enough at night that Tower and Ground were the same guy - over on ground he said he only asked because the first approach looked good from his perspective, that he'd never heard that reason for going missed approach before, but that it was a mighty fine reason.
heartt attack? it would be a brown and yellow cockpit, bowels fully evacuated
You can't beat instincts that are educated and disciplined.
In 1991 I flew PIA on a business trip from Almaty, Kazakhstan to Islamabad, Pakistan without incident. But, the following day, I flew PIA from Islamabad to Karachi aboard what appeared to me to be the oldest, most decrepit 747 in existence. It was a scary flight, not only from my observations of shoddy maintenance of the interior (and presumed similar lacking maintenance of the airworthiness aspects), but also from the extreme turbulence encountered during the flight. Upon our safe landing I was never so glad to be on the ground, and I vowed NEVER AGAIN to fly PIA.
Just one passenger's experience.
As always, thanks so much for sharing.
Steve
Yup, it's an unsafe airline...always been that way...always will be! I wouldn't let my dog fly on this airline.
However, turbulence has nothing to do with any airlines...accept, and I must admit, PIA is one of those airlines that will actually fly directly into a Thunderstorm, and then blame the Air Traffic Control. Google their 777 with shattered windshields due to hail.
This is a scathing report for PIA. Its unbelievable to me that a pilot Captain with over 17,000 hours would act the way this pilot did. The F.O. shared plenty of blame as well. It's been a known issue that PIA is not the safest airline out there but this report really drives that home.
Makes you wonder if the entire fleet has been reinspected for over stressed airframes, engines, and gear???
Yes, exactly. The whole event leaves you speechless. No Movie Maker would have been able to imagine such a story.
There'll be a few initially shrugging their shoulders in PIA head office, give it a few weeks & everything will be back to the sub-standard normal service of operation...
The only way you'll get any reaction & change from PIA management is to expose & stop all their kickbacks & backhanders from suppliers &/or any organisation that provides a service to this airline & which could be corruptible (which in Pakistan is absolutely anyone & everything...!)...
@@JohnSmith-qy3cc Geeat point!
Seventeen hours of experience 1,000 times.
This one genuinely brought tears to me eyes, and I'm not usually susceptible to that. The passengers and cabin crew had trusted their lives to these pilots, who betrayed that trust with a completely avoidable crash. It's hard to fathom why the captain was so determined to land, that he preferred an unsafe dive to entering the holding pattern, or just doing an orbit, and disobeyed ATC instructions.
Yes, it was indeed a unbelievable irresponsibility by the Pilots. Eventually thdy paid for it with their own lifes, too.
Apparently, ego... He wasn't going to let ATC tell them what to do.
Apparently for a go around, PIA pilots have to explain in detail for it . The repercussions can be harsh on these pilots. They probably thought they would fare better by doing this dive instead of getting a mark on their records.
As a captain working here in Pakistan and flying the bus, I felt unease watching this video. Utter lack of professionalism and CRM. A point to note is that private airlines in Pakistan do have a FDM program before this crash happened and only PIA was the airline where these things were allowed to happen. As in the States, we do get a call if we exceed any parameter during the flight.
Is it due to PIA being state owned? E.g. blame culture, nepotism etc.
How common is it for pilots to be speaking Urdu instead of English?
how common is it the air traffic control centers are speaking urdu instead of English?
@@Saaj2 Just lack of a FDM program at the time and no repercussions for an unstable approach.
@@mcamp9445 In the cockpit we converse in Urdu if both the pilots are Pakistani but ATC and all communication related to the aircraft are done in English
Does tower crew have to do a visual and confirm if the landing gear is down for aircraft landing?
Firstly, fair play to the Pakistan Authorities for publishing a full and seemingly honest report. I never expected they would so that's good progress.
Secondly, all those deaths because the captain did not want to hold for a few minutes - utterly senseless !
Indeed, exactly. Hopefully it´s the first important step forward: State truly what was wrong. Then you´re able to do it better in the future.
It is reassuring to know RUclips is working hard to protect us from the truth.
The Great G must be worshiped,
and obeyed.
Well, now we have a monopoly controlling what we are allowed to see and hear.
The chain of events leading to this accident had so many escape routes, yet none were taken. The ego, arrogance and incompetence of the captain is abhorrent.
I'm a sailor. If there's one thing I've learned when making landfall, it's that if ANYTHING seems out of place or something in my navigation system or engine or sails isn't right, it's to head back out to sea, and sort things out. On a safe heading. Give it another go once things are under control. In other words:
GO AROUND!
As soon as the captain freaked out (at 15:59) and screamed:
"What has happened? Stop, Stop, Oh No!..."
...that flight was doomed.
I've been in similar situations in small boats at sea. NEVER panic! No matter how much adrenaline is coursing through your veins. Even when your mouth goes dry and your vision narrows to a straw and you can't think straight because something has suddenly gone wrong, you MUST slow down and THINK or you WILL make things WORSE. Keep the boat UNDER CONTROL. Steer so you don't HIT anything. Figure out a safe heading - a reciprocal heading (180 degrees) is generally a good bet. Figure out what's wrong. Fix it. Issue a PAN-PAN or MAYDAY over VHF if you or anyone else is in serious trouble - like a man overboard, or you are taking on water. It's the same rule / sequence pilots are supposed to follow when things go sideways:
"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate"
I once had to remind a distracted Captain at the helm of HIS boat to "Steer the Boat!" - inside the harbor - as he was screaming at crewman who were struggling a sail. There was no danger to them, but we just narrowly avoided slamming into a DOCKED BOAT after I directed his attention back to his task of helming. This guy is a friend, but after several more incidents like this - some involving injuries to me, I quit crewing for him. He was too reckless and impulsive and distracted. Un-teachable. He was always behind his boat, and was always distracted, resulting in piss poor situational awareness. Sure enough he collided with another boat during a race the following season, doing major damage to both boats.
...and he's still out there racing... I will not be surprised if someone dies on this guy's boat someday. It happens all the time. The other thing that's just as bad is when someone freezes-up under pressure. It's ok to slow down and think carefully when faced with a novel threat. Complete lock-up is not OK. You need to be able to thread a needle in the eye of the hurricane, close the wound, and get on with it.
Some people are simply not cut-out to be sailors - or pilots.
The only way to know how you or anyone else will react under emergency conditions is to SUBJECT THEM TO EMERGENCY CONDITIONS and see how they react. The Pakistani Captain panicked in a NON EMERGENCY situation. By so doing, he CREATED AN EMERGENCY SITUATION! Sounds like he had similar problems on check rides and in simulators.
Try not to scream or yell or even raise your voice - unless it's because your crew can't HEAR YOU . Even then, you should use as calm a tone of voice and demeanor as possible. Listen to how astronauts communicate with mission control in dire situations.
"Ah Huston... we have a problem..." In the calmest, most laconic drawl they can manage. It's a badge of honor and hard won skill to be able to keep your cool when everything around you goes to sh*t. As Neil Armstrong put it: "There's never a situation that's so bad that you can't make it worse" as a pilot.
Panic is contagious. It blows my mind that someone this incompetent was allowed to fly a freaking commercial passenger jet. The fact he survived 22,000 hours without man-slaughtering himself and all aboard is a testament to how robust commercial aviation safety is...
Thanks for writing your comment. I enjoyed reading it. It’s excellent stuff 👍
Reminded me of that line from the Rudyard Kipling poem
..If you can keep your head, when all about are losing theirs..
The correct procedure after this incident is to review all decisions issued by the initial psychiatrist who deemed him psychologically unfit and make sure all his decisions have been implemented.
@@M_SCThat´s a very good point!
Thank you very much for this review of what happened and sharing your experience. The question is really what was going on in the Captain. At the point you quoted he was panicking without a reason. Later he seems to be proud on his performance when he was saying: "He will be surprised what we have done." This looks like as if he was an emotionally unstable person, what refers to his psychatric pre-history. Also: What was the FO thinking? He was clearly very much behind the Aircraft, too, all the way down to the crash.
If he was trying to save face and/or impress ATC with his flying skills, he failed. I'm sure they were surprised tho...
Then again, maybe they were familiar with his idiotic aerobatics, and expecting he'd crash sooner or later.
Probably not expecting two crashes during the same flight though...@@NicolaW72
The level of incompetency in this accident is unbelievable...i was screaming WTF throughout the accident report. Apart from all the pilot errors i also wonder why no one at the ATC Told them they were landing without gears down. I have read so many accident reports but none had me leaving my jaws open like this one. I hope the families find some closure.
Indeed, me, too. LaMia Flight 2933 and Aeroflot Flight 821 had the same level of ruthlessness and incompetence, but it was in a negative way outstanding what happened here.
Just one remark to the point about the ATC you mentioned: The Pilots were the whole time in contact with Approach Control, they never switched over to the Tower Control. That was a service provided by the Karachi Control Center to make it easier for the Pilots because the Controllers obviously saw that this Approach was way out of order - so the Pilots hadn´t to switch over the Radio Frequencies. Juan mentioned in the Video the contact between the two Controllers talking about this issue. But it meaned also that the relevant ATC had no visual contact to the Aircraft: The Tower Controllers are the Guys sitting up in the Tower watching the Runway, but the Approach Controllers are sitting usually somewhere in an Office Building with only their Computer Screens in front of them. So the Approach Controller had no chance to see that the Gears of the approaching Aircraft were up.
As bad as this makes the crew seem, I think they are still the only crew to ever crash the exact same jet airliner twice in the same day. That feat might never be matched!
😂 A world record
Proud to be a supporter on Patreon, because RUclips's algorithm unfairly keeps demonetizing your thoughtful, instructive and fair videos. Really, the most important ones!
Thankyou for your service. I wish I had the means to support Juan too.
@@user-yi3yx2fn7g - I know nothing of your financial situation, obviously. However, Juan's lowest membership tier is $2 per month. Maybe that amount is feasible for you?
"The inconsistent and discriminatory monetization policy at YT is untenable.
This $2/month tier allows direct early access to all my content without putting up with RUclips-controlled de-monetization policies.
Thanks for your Support!
Juan Browne"
If any airline is a no fly, it's PIA. Thank you, Juan, for the autopsy...and I use the word exactly.
As a professional Airline Pilot this report makes my blood boil. What utter incompetence!
"The people of Pakistan deserve better". Man, that's for sure. So did the passengers onboard that flight. How does RUclips not see the value in disseminating this type of information?
You can watch the demonetized videos (the playlist is all there) but Juan does not earn any money from them.
It's the advertisers not wanting their brand associated with dead bodies. And RUclips people don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. Amoral stance from a bunch of greedy corporations sucking up money, they couldn't care less about what we want to / should watch. Money $ Money $ Money $ Money $
@@bookoobeans Welcome to Earth.
I have found Pakistanis to be a nice group of people when I met them in my industry over the years...yes they do desreve better that is for sure. Free Imran Khan.
Amazed the aircraft was able to fly for that long with that much damage to the engines.
I'm amazed it was able to get off the ground. A real testament to how powerful and solidly built these aircraft are.
The only difference between something bad happening and not happening is “not”.
Thank you, Juan, for explaining in lay language for non-pilots but aviation enthusiasts. I was at home in Karachi on this fateful day because of the lockdown and heard the breaking news on the TV. So many lives were lost because of the incompetence of the two pilots who were doing everything else but focusing on flying properly.
Great video review! Minor error at 26:02 - whoever presses the flight control override switch LAST has control of the aircraft. (Source: Airbus FCOM)
As an engineer without any Airbus experience I was surprised by this side note.
This is the last option left for a pilot to get rid of any malfunction in the other path.
Thank you for your correction!
PIA flies into Toronto Canada on a regular basis, and on a regular basis one of the cabin crew goes missing. Poor pay and poor working conditions will lead to crew dissatisfaction.
Surprised Canada hasn't suspended its operating license like EASA.
@@tomriley5790 half of Canadians are from Pakistan.
@@davidj4662there are other ways to get to Pakistan
@@davidj4662that’s an incredibly bigoted comment and misrepresentation!
Sadly we far to often ignore some aspects of IATA certifications even though they are Canadian based and created by an act of parliament. PIA and a few others who fly into Canada have no place to have operational permission to enter our airspace and unfortunately we are far to often at the whim for what our major carriers decide is reasonable (not flying to certain destinations that are required for the Canadian economy).
@TheTechnoPilot well he wasnt far off. Just wrong country. 44% of canadians are from india
In any country with a serious aviation administration that airline would have been shut down a long time ago. This is just overwhelmingly bizarre and even infuriating.
Indeed, exactly.
Hearing this, it is quite amazing and a testament to technology that the airplane was able to stay airborne for a couple of minutes more after the touchdown.
If this was a Boeing it never would have even gotten off the ground. Yoke controls are way more difficult, and incredibly more demanding, to fly. It's the extreme level of automation which makes the Airbus very dangerous: There's a false sense of security and proficiency.
In Toronto there has been about 6 or 7 (or more) PIA flight attendants disappearing after their arrival into Canada.
During Ramadan persons travelling are exempt from fasting. This obviously includes working air crew.
Juan, that sigh at the end of the play by play is as much of a reminder as anything else about how passionate you are about flight safety and how much it matters. I appreciate your efforts to constantly learn, teach, and remind us all about the importance of safety procedures, but remember to take care of yourself too, this stuff isn't an easy thing to parse and internalize.
"not suitable for all advertisers" yeah because screw the viewers and the content creators, it's the ADVERTISERS RUclips is concerned about
That Aircraft was a better aviator than the pilots. All the warnings, interlocks etc, only to be ignored.
The comparison between their approach compared to a stable approach on the graph is absolutely insane.
PIA has had issues with unstable approaches before. I remember 2 issues with PIA aircraft descending below the approach at BHX, so much that ATC had to yell at them to climb.
I’m not a pilot, just an aviation and aircraft enthusiast. This explanation and analysis of this debacle is outstanding and understandable by anyone. Great job as usual, Juan.
What impresses me is that an airliner can drag its engine nacelles along the runway and yet maintain airspeed to take off again. Even more impressed the engines continued to run as long as they did.
the Swiss cheese model is again very applicable, the crew ate all the cheese deliberately in this instance. Absolutely apauling.
Surprised a Pakistani investigation board made such a damning and thorough report!
Indeed. Hopefully an important step into the right direction!
A staggering amount of incompetence. How the captain managed to accrue 17000 hours will remain a mystery.
Some might wonder if he'd been doing some creative bookkeeping over the years. Or if most of it was in airforce jets. Or an airforce desk.
Before this crash I'd have thought even the most incompetent of pilots would eventually become good after accruing 10k+ hours of experience… how can you do something for 20 years and still be this shit?
@@rynabuns If you keep doing shit without any repercussions, you'd still be shit, be it 10k hours or 20k. His previous flight record was full of such discrepancies, yet no one payed attention.
Pencil whip
2/28/24..Final report on Pakistan International Airways crash May 2020. Juan, your commitment to safe & professional flying really comes thru to all viewers as you, an experienced commercial pilot, explain the complexity of multiple systems, fabulous auto pilot & related verbal warnings...superimposed with the simultaneous conversations & conflicts by both Captain & FO. Excellent reporting sir! Prayers go out to all who died, victimized by layers of ineptitude within PIA, the lack of oversight by the nation's aviation authorities & local burocratic & human cultural failures. Glad you reported numerous changes are being implemented by governmental authorities. Hope for expeditious improvement. Thx Juan, another great educational video.👍⚙️🔩😊
One simple 4 minute holding pattern with a descent rate of 1,500fpm would have allowed them to lose the 6,000’ required to go from 9,000’ down to 3,000’.
They could have even briefed and configured in the hold and had a nice stable approach.
Such a shame that a simple 4 minute hold would most likely have prevented this tragedy.
Such a tragedy.
When you have a "bossy" idiot on the sidestick who thinks to know it better than the planner of the flight path. Toxic masculinity at it´s best.
Better to be late in this life than early in the next
In hindsight everything makes sense. But when you're at the helm, all sorts of things cross your mind. He may have been trying to save grace which appears to be what it was but he failed. It takes a responsible individual to make that call within the heat of the moment not fearing the inevitably of losing your pilots licence
Great review, Juan. No surprises here. I wonder if there was strong pressure from management to not go-around. In all my years as a Check Airman observed several unstable approaches, many of which terminated in a go-around. The debriefing was quite different if the landing was accomplished from an unstable approach. For the guy that chose to go around I debriefed the most excellent decision that was made and we discussed only the second approach. I always thought that learning had occurred regarding the error causing the go-around and reliving it wasn’t necessary. Many debriefings when a landing was forced out of an unstable approach resulted in line removal, additional training, and a repeat line check. Attitude is everything. Thanks for what you do.
The ability to admit your mistake quickly is a very difficult skill for humans
Quite simply an accident that should never had happened.
As a retired airline pilot (training captain) over 45 years when speaking about flight safety I say that lack of regulation (ie inspection and enforcement of rules and standards etc by The, relevant, Authority) is a red light when it comes to safe operation.
The drum hit at the end of the outro is devastating.
Finality.
Yes.
PIA8303 is when I found you! How frustrating to hear those videos are still demonetized 😮
This was not an "accident" in the usual sense of the word. The captain was actively courting disaster.
It certainly was not an “accident”.
It was an “inevitable”.
I am very glad those two guy are not flying anymore. However, I am deeply saddened it cost so many innocent lives.
Just the fact alone of them touching down without the landing gear and then going around is just mind blowing. This case actually makes a big point about how much beating aircraft can take before failing. Still, human stupidity is infinite.
I once flew on a very old PIA 747 from Karachi to Paris. The ceiling on the left side of the aircraft was dripping water-- literally onto the heads of passengers--and none of the reading lights on that side were operative. When I asked a steward about this, I was told "interior maintenance--no problem." I spent most of the flight trying not to think about the combination of pooling water, pulled circuit breakers, and frayed wiring. Inshallah is, unfortunately, part of all advanced planning in Pakistan
I flew with European Wizz air in January. And water was dripping on me. I ask air hostess and she didn’t gave a monkey.
So it looks like the cocky cap was determined to land and didn’t realize that the F.O. who was at that point determined to go-around had raised the gear back up and retracted the speed brakes. I wonder if the gear was down if it would just be a hard landing halfway down the runway and poco más. Thank you Juan for your terrific vids full of your wise professional insight. We are so lucky to have the likes of you and Victor (Vasaviation) consistently turning out great material. Please contact the producers of Air Crash Investigation to offer your services. How friggin amazingly better would it make that already great show if at the end you get a bonus explanation and analysis like this. Keep up the good work!
Yes - and no communication between the two Pilots took place - so they both tried to flew the Aircraft in different ways and finally crashed it.
I've seen other sources saying that they'd have a hard time stopping before the end of the runway due to the very high speed and very late touch down. A runway overrun may still have caused less tragedy, though.
The crazy part is if they left the gear down they probably could've saved it, or at least had a much less severe crash.
That's probably correct. If the gear had been down he might have pulled it off. Certainly, it appears he had likely done this before to be so confident to do it here.
Had their been anyone in the ATC Tower, they could have warned them too............He didn't mention that part of the report!
Juan as a 30 plus year service airline pilot I find the complete lack of SA and operating ability deeply depressing and shocking. I would be interested to see how their recurrent training was assessed or was it just “rubber stamped” and signed by PIA.
They still let PIA fly into Canada and almost every month one or two flight attendants disappear and don't return to fly "home".
insane, what is canada thinking. Its like letting missiles fly over your territory with pilots like this
It’s not surprising. If memory serves, they had a lot of pilots who weren’t even certificated pilots and dismissed? I think Pakistan AIrlines are prohibited from operations in Europe?
I think this accident and the initial findings of the investigation are what caused Europe and I believe the US to ban PIA from flying in their airspace. Looking at articles from the time, the initial investigation turned up 260 out of 860 active pilots either had fake licenses or had been found to have cheated on their exams.
called PAkillpax . Because of unqualified pilots sending other pilots to do the flight test for them, for a price.
Yes, they were putted on the Black List of the EU after this crash and they're still on it.
Amazingly they are again flying a service into Europe & Canada.....😮
In the Maritime world there are countries notorious for fake certificates and Ukrainian vessel Caprains are one group who you have to really be careful with. Many simply paid for their captains tickets. Corruption a go go!
since the oroville dam your content has continued to deliver detailed and comprehensive analysis that can't be found anywhere else. Thank you.
Mentor Pilot also does an outstanding job. If you haven't already you should check him out.
@@stevewhite3424Indeed.
WOW! Even as a lay person I could understand what occurred through your spectacular explanation of events. You’re absolutely correct, the people, the human beings of Pakistan deserve so much more! Thank you so much for all you do and for bringing us these awesome videos. ❤️
That "Inshallah" sent chills down my spine. In all the stories I've heard, that phrase is never followed by responsible actions.
I used to travel (reluctantly) on a small west African airline, where the motto was: owned by Lebanese, flown by Russians, maintained by Allah and fueled on vodka.
@@stephengrimmer35Allah thinks the Sun sets in a mud puddle so he's probably gonna struggle with jet engine maintenance.
in a literally perfectly functioning airplane too, insane
that's islam for u
Rubbish.
In flying, the phrase, "he will be surprised at what we have done" is as dangerous a phrase as "watch this..." WTF all they had to do get into the hold, descend, and get better prepared to fly the approach. They simply dove at the runway.
yea, technically a 'hold my beer'
"he had below average intelligence. he tends to have little regard of authority. he had low mechanical comprehension with low comprehension of space relations. his level of stress tolerance was also quite inadequate." how in the HELL does such a person get to be a pilot let alone a pilot in command????? such a travesty that he was let anywhere near the controls of an aircraft. i hope PIA gets sued into oblivion over putting such an unfit person behind the yoke!!!
The passengers must have known the approach was unstable and their lives might be over. Imagine the panic as the plane scraped along the runway and then limped back into the sky. Probably lots of prayers and hugs just before the end.
Saw an interview with one of the survivors. Seems they all knew it was the end. And yes prayers.
I am surprised the Pakistanis let this much info out.
i dont think your videos reporting the crash should be demonitized. How is a video scrutinized? What is the criteria?
Aside from that, thanks for your explanation of the final report. Excellent workm as always.
Juan, Ive never heard you so fed up and angry about this accident. Although i can understand why
I used to describe the 'false glide slope' to students as similar to when a double rainbow occurs.
Good analogy!
What a disaster. So many people lost their lives and relatives their loved ones due to sheer incompetence of two “pilots”.
one part of Pakistani culture you need to recognize if you want to listen to comments from Pakistan is that whilst in America, or Europe, if someone does not get into the university or Job he wants he will say "I have not studied hard enough" or "they're prejudiced against me"
from Pakistan, you will often hear... "I am not well connected enough" or "only so & so's son can have that kind of job"... there is a strong belief that, if you were wronged everyone else is wronged in thesame manner, & if you do not get something it means someone stole it from you... and that someone has a face.
I would guess corruption does have a strong part to play here, but we need to understand that everything that's wrong is ALWAYS blamed on corruption and nepotism, in the way we tend to blame it on stupidity.
And all that bullshit you got from living years in Pakistan with Pakistani families. 🤡
@@UMAIRRAJA90 heard to many people say exactly that, and I do not care if he was or was in the country at the time of his telling... and there were non-Pakistani people facing thesame challenges, and could see their reactions too....
btw, they do not change when they migrate or work abroad....
For clarity, The term “throttles” is neither Boeing nor Airbus anymore. Both manufacturers use the term Thrust Lever throughout their FCOMs/QRHs/emergency checklists these days….throttle is likely an old school holdover from reciprocating engine flying or the military…..I haven’t heard it used for years related to any jet airline flying, be it Boeing, Airbus or Embraer….
Agree.
Interesting. In one of my favorite movies Airport 1975, the disabled Captain instructs the Stewardess to move the 'Thrust Levers' forward one inch to increase airspeed and enabling the 747 to climb and miss the mountain it was heading towards.
Yup agree
OMG! I can sense the exasperation / astonishment in your voice. Your explanation is outstanding. This is Keystone Cops without the music!
New aviation maneuver, "Scrape & Go"
This episode could be an all day safety seminar! Well done, as always, Juan Browne. While saddened by this event, I was impressed by the thoroughness of the PCAA. Especially considering the pressures likely exerted by cultural factors to overlook systemic issues. May this tragedy truly change the fundamentals of flying by PIA. In shaa Allah.
Yes.
Thanks Don!
Excellent analysis and shocking findings. Someone needs to translate this into Urdu for wider dissemination in Pakistan. Nothing will change unless it is shouted from the rooftops.
While I am not a professional pilot, this was just shocking to me and will remind me to keep a sterile cockpit. I regularly fly with a friend who's also a retired Navy Flight Instructor and we always crosscheck each other. My first flight instructor (WW-II veteran) used to say, "the most important thing in aviation is,,, the next two things. He also said, the only bad go around is the one you SHOULD have taken.
i know it's not their responsibility or the way things are handled but you would've loved ATC to call out a "PIA 8303 go around" call - maybe that would've made a difference
10:17 made me think that something on my taskbar popped up, lol! Greeat video as always, sir.
Thank you Juan. Odd that you tube thinks that advertisers don’t support quality and integrity.
This has to be your best report I have ever seen Juan!
Seems like the Captain must have just been fired for driving tuk tuks then proceeded to do the same in an airliner.
Seems like the FO was more aware of what should be done but typical ‘culture’ protocols kept him from taking command.
Totally inept flight crew. Amazed that only one fatality on the ground though😢
So basically the captain takes unanounced control while the PF is executing a go-around (gear up, throttles advanced) and forces the aircraft onto the ground.
@@stephengrimmer35Yes. And zero communication between both of them.
Being born in Karachi (ex-Pat) I can confirm that complete lack of safety in just about everything from building construction to power grid to roads and ground transport. It seems to be a cultural problem from the many years I lived there ... but it's important to understand it's NOT everyone in Pakistan and I'm not stereotyping. I'm reporting my observations during the years I lived there. I agree the people of Pakistan need to rethink their purpose and cultural difficulty that presents significant safety issues for the people of Pakistan and those not native to Pakistan.
This is so informative! Great job, fantastic reporting!🌻🌼🐝 Keep it up 🙌
Wow, this is such a massive clusterfuck of everything wrong. The people of Pakistan TRULY deserves better!!
There has been quite a lot of this kind of crashes from PIA since about 2010's. I hope they are blacklisted from the EU airspace until they get this sorted. Completely unacceptable and a huge letdown from PIA to their people.
No wonder they say PIA stands for "Please Inform Allah".
Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to live in a country where people understand technology and how to safely use it. This report is a good reminder. RIP.
Dial back the superiority complex there will ya. I'm sure Pakistanis are just as able to understand technology as you are. There would be people from your country just as able to crash a plane if they were also wrongly selected like these guys. Nepotism, corruption and a lack of safety culture are the problem here. Not nationality.
It is possible that the local culture of a nation can contribute to unsafe conditions. In societies where elders are treated with extreme difference such as Korea or Pakistan or others. Crew resource management was hugely spurred on by the fact that there were several accidents by Korean Airlines in that culture where deference for an elder especially have a higher rank than you meant that the first officer would almost never speak up or simply take control to rectify the problem they multiple times had first officers making passive suggestions like what you see here instead of saying definitively captain we are getting warnings we are going around. Some cultures it’s easier to convey this system two because they don’t have as much built-in difference to seniority and status. Basically a large power differential between captains and first officers mean first officers often fail to aggressively correct the captain and take control if necessary in this case the first officer failed at the task of calling out problems to the captain.
serious airlines especially in High power differential societies make a lot of effort to build up the copilot I to be able to stand up to the pilot. After aggressive implementation and standardization in other required protocols such as only speaking English as the law requires everywhere but China and Russia simce 2022. If this copilot had even mentioned air traffic control that he knew they were incorrect in their flight profile basically would have forced the captain to have to go around. Korean airlines has since had an excellent safety record
@@mcamp9445 That is complete nonsense! The focus on Korean happened much later when western airlines had long adopted CRM and the Koreans had not. CRM was brought in because of accidents caused by western crews. Western crews had all of those 'captain is god' cockpit cultures too and learned from them through the deaths of thousands of passengers. All of what you describe about Korean crews not questioning the captain was the norm in British and American cockpits really until the 80s and 90s and even then too a while to move away from completely.
@@davidkavanagh189The Staines aircrash comes to mind. Bad feeling in the cockpit.
@@nicolad8822 Absolutely and that type of cockpit culture was far from rare in those days.
Absolutely wonderful analaysis of the report. What a shame the way things have gone for PIA
Absolutely unbelievable, I have just watched this video right through...
Twice though...!!
Because I just wanted to confirm that I was hearing right....!!
How did no one ever get on the fact that these Pilots were so bad at their job....!!
I hope I never ever hear a similar story again....😮
Stuff like this is a reason I don't risk flying on non-american or non-western-european airlines. although this same kind of thing where the indept and inadequate are promoted for political reasons (DEI) is starting to creep into US carriers.
"Insha-Allah"
Allan’s Snackbar.
A famous cafe in London.
R
@@RalphEllis- I hear 'The Prophet's Beer' goes down a treat, too. 🧔 🍺
I'm not a pilot, but very interested in aviation. I nerd out on behind the curtain stuff. Thanks, Juan. Great video
If someone were to show me this flight profile without explanation I'd have laughed it off as some noob playing a flight simulator video game...
The fact that the plane was able to regain airspeed enough for it to rotate and takeoff with so much drag induced by the scraping engines along the runway (basically, without the rolling momentum of the gears), is astonishing!