I always find things that are done up to sound "larger than life" with 20 horns and drums that sound like explosions actually have the opposite affect on me. It just sounds so cheesy. It's so over the top it sounds like a parody. Stuff written properly for a real orchestra will always be more effective.
Real orchestra is always the way to go! But unfortunately not always accessible. I hope that when this trend will die out, producers will be more opened to provide budget for real orchestras!
Your comments took me back to my olde music college days, before computers. You imagined a score for orchestra, and spent hours drawing the score on huge manuscript paper. Then the cost, of bribing musicians to play your music (brass players were always more expensive in pubs). I guess the parallel is that filmmakers have a budget too and in the professional world everyone is trying to make a living. You've got to be realistic and creative!
I still work with manuscript paper for all my concert music! Although I do the parts and final score on Sibelius, but I like to work with paper and away from the computer for the most creative parts. But yes we could say that people try to be creative with the budget they have, and unfortunately we can’t all have access to a real orchestra very often. So orchestral libraries can be quite helpful in that sense !
Finally, someone actually say this! 🙏 I when I compose, I try to keep it simple, catchy, and easy to listen. Not too much bass, not too heavy or not too high pitch. I was frustrated with this type of heavy arrangements, it actually gave me will and desire to compose something softer, subtle and smooth.
In my opinion, those people who make those "EPIC ORCHESTRAL MUSIC TUTORIAL" videos just do those videos to feed the algorithm. Sure, big epic brash orchestral music is exciting, but as you said, nobody will really commission you to make this sort of music, or at least, not as often as you might think. Also yeah they have templates that are bigger than a planet and it's just not needed. Really good points in this video.
I HATE the term EPIC ORCHESTRAL! The biggest problem with this type of "orchestration" is that it's not entirely practical in real life. Even though I work with sample libraries for the majority of my work, I always write with real players in mind, ensuring that the music is playable and practical and ready for a music stand if the budget allows. Great video!
That’s a wise approach to your instrumental sounds, something I do myself as well! Making sound libraries sound real is another challenge, but a great way to develop your skills to write for real players when you don’t have access to it. I studied with Alan Belkin at the University of Montreal (he has a great RUclips channel), and he really was one of the first of his generation to use MIDI mock-ups to anticipate how it would sound on the real orchestra. It’s a great tool and an amazing lesson !
Thanks for saying this! at last!! This is so important stuff, I feel some dangerous atmosphere of composers trying to sound like Zimmer and to sound "epic", I understand it is great, but there are more things, subtle and interesting ways to write music. Every artist has a unique way, just listen to yourself and trust the process. Excelent video, thanks again.
Very valid points to this. Though epic orchestral music won't go away anytime soon, I like how they sound and often bring excitement. But, I also don't like how some of them are overly done with 3-4 string and brass layers because at that point, it sounds like a blurry mess. I like to do more melodic, romantic type of orchestral music that tells a story with emotions.
It’s really true. A number of years ago I scored a film and almost completely messed up a cue by over doing it. It was supposed to be a little dramatic but I took it all the way to devastating at first. I pulled out all the bass instruments and unnecessary tensions and it worked so much better.
I would also add that the glorified arpeggiator and drum loop "epic" style results in a lot of identical sounding music that sounds exactly like everyone else in line for the job. In the absence of more sophisticated part-writing, melody, use of woodwinds, and relying on the same "epic chord progressions" it's difficult to develop your own signature like what would differentiate Williams from Goldsmith, from Silvestri, or any of the other golden-age composers.
Great points you've made here, 3 other soundtrack composers who have nailed the orchestration nuances have been Basil Poledouris, James Horner, Dennis McCarthy and the late Michael Kamen. These composers' orchestration styles often allow the listener to hear the each layer very clearly even during the loudest and heaviest moments. This contrasts with the so-called "Epic Orchestral" style(most "epic orchestral covers") whose orchestration is often oversaturated and becomes very muddy as a result, to the point of losing the composition's own character. It all comes down to using the right size of orchestral/choral forces in the right moment and don't over-or-underdo it!
That's right, it's all about hitting the right balance I believe. Pouledoris music is so gooooood! Love Horner and McCarthy as well, will have to look at Kamen's.
@@adavidcompo My top recommendations of Kamen's work would be Robin Hood, Band of Brothers, From the Earth to the Moon, Die Hard 1-3 and of course Highlander which was co-written with the band Queen. All these soundtracks are on par with John Williams, Howard Shore & James Horner. Kamen's orchestral style also works well for 'true' orchestral covers of pop/rock songs, far better than both 'epic orchestral covers' or the cheesy 'slap-some-drum-&-bass-onto-an-orchestra covers'!
Im not trying to have a career in music... I'm just a visual artist who has started dabbling in music production. I also love those big bombastic orchestrations, but my approach with writing songs has been the same approach I take with my artwork...which is the "do more with less" style. My songs have been pretty simple piano sketches that evolve into some strings and the occasional choir notes, but i haven't even touched a percussion sample or midi yet. And this has been deliberate. I feel that simplicity in music can express just as much excitement as a raging, 100 layer action score and I can learn more about how to be a good musician by taking that approach
Do more with less is a great way to approach music creatively! I just made a new video about simplicity versus complexity, nuancing a bit more what I’m adressing in this video here.
The reason why I'm terrible at epic trailer music stuff (other than I I'm just terrible🤣); I always try to orchestrate for a real orchestra. BUT, I do see the point of it for some modern styles, as long as you know that how you are orchestrating is unrealistic, then go for it. I've also realized over the past few years that a lot of the video game/anime/film/TV music i like and try to emulate is written for much smaller ensembles and not even a full concert orchestra most of the time.
Yep, sound designing can require sometimes to just do bold moves, and I'm not saying to avoid doing this. My message is just to invite composers to diversify their approach, to work on other things! And yeah I think is so cool that composers have been very creative in the past 20 years with only working with a few players or smaller ensembles, and it's crazy how the studio can make things sound so much bigger.
Point taken. You forgot about one career path though. Fulltime trailer composers actually make big bucks with this orchestration style. It’s an industry in its own right with lots of opportunities for composers who actually want to master and expand on this style.
Indeed, and I don't quite have any freelance composer colleague who is just doing this. But my bet is that these composers work in production companies and they're paid to compose this full time. In that case, you mostly become a technician which can be okay, but maybe not what a composer would aspire in the long term. I don't know if this trend is going to die out eventually, but when it does I just hope these composers will be able to do all other things a composer can do, which like I said involve a lot of writing for smaller ensembles.
@@adavidcompo I recon having a broad skill set is always an advantage as long as you’ve got your expertise as well. I know a few big trailer composers. They are not hired to work in house. The custom and production music business is huge and very competitive. The AAA trailer composers are basically on top of the game. It’s an open market and they’re simply their own boss like any filmcomposer would be ;)
Well good to know! It’s certainly a quite specific skill to write super intense music for 30 seconds, but we can recognize that it requires an expertise.
@@ShaharHarshuvthere is a small current trend of trailers using trailerised re-composed and re-arranged versions of pop songs. Since these versions need to be re-written it doesn’t take away from the composing work plus it’s only a number of trailers that do this since as far as license clearance goes it’s more complicated and expensive. I’m sure someone can also find a trailer that uses an original unaltered popsong but that is definitely not standard practice. So don’t worry the work is there, trailer music composer is still a viable career path atm.
This message makes perfect sense for composers seeking a career. As for myself, I am just a hobbyist and I don't need to make any money from my music, so I just make what I enjoy. I love the extremely booming, lush mega-sound. I have zero interest in writing anything for a real orchestra, even if I had the chance. I have very specific sound in my mind that I really "have" to make, almost for therapeutic purposes (lol), and it usually involves also a lot of synths and sound design. I do love making simple melodies and harmonies as well, but I will always make ultra bombastic, choral, layer-after-layer, all the drums of the world music, simply because it makes me happy and sometimes its also exactly what I like to listen. I am not a fancy musician and I don't want to be, I see myself more as the McDonalds of composers and that's totally fine 😂 Anyway, I really like your channel, I have learned a lot from the short time watching! Edit: But when I would really have to decide, my all time favorites would be: All of Shores LotR and Williams Harry Potter, both that you mentioned. But I am not skilled enough to ever even try going in such a direction, I just do me. :P
Super cool comment, as I totally get the idea of just doing music for fun and doing the most crazy things possible! One of my music project is a progressive metal band called Chronochromie, and I love pushing the boundaries of the musical discourse within this aesthetic. It's also important to sometimes create with no expectations from anyone.
@a.nobodys.nobody Yes! Contemporary music for a great canadian trio : ruclips.net/video/21Y_BziIfS4/видео.html My band : ruclips.net/video/OFQCo9R30NU/видео.html An experimental electroacoustic piece : ruclips.net/video/tSjucjdJU4Q/видео.html It's quite diverse and experimental, but I also do composition and arrangement for the screen which is generally lighter :)
Depends on the project though I'd say. There is a certain emotion a large (but still realistic) ensemble carries that conveys a sense of grandeur. You wouldn't want to score an epic series like Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings like a pocket opera for example. It wouldn't meet the emotional demands of the scope of the story. Choosing the right ensemble for each project is very important in this regard.
@@itznoxy7193 Yeah I guess that's true, but my point was simply if your orchestration is solid and varied you can do a lot with a little. One of my favorite examples of something that is very economical but sounds bigger than it should on paper are Rhespighi Three Botticelli Paintings.
Both of you are right! Some music calls for a bigger ensemble, and others can totally work with a smaller ensemble. I admire Mahler's music in that regard, as his music is such a beautiful mixture between the individuality of the instruments in the more global picture of the orchestra.
Yes! Most of my music that have travelled the world (to this day I've had my music performed in six different countries on two continents) is for only one or up to a handfull of instruments. And I would never have been asked to write anything at all if it hadn't been for having these performances proving that I can compose at all. To this day (celebrating 20 years since my first "serious" performance of my music) my largest commission was for 3 soloists, two choirs (SATB and childrens choir), strings and piano. And quite frankly I would never have got that either if I hadn't first proven myself in smaller settings.
Indeed, music for smaller ensembles (especially soloists) tends to be played more. I've written many works for orchestras, and most of them have been performed once. But that's also a concert orchestra problem : they don't seem to like playing a lot of new music!
I have a commission to write a cantata for choir, winds and brass. No strings. Obviously I have to be mindful of the brass since it's a 30 minute work and they cannot blow fff for the entire time. In fact, very little of the time, unless I want them to kill their embouchures.
Bravo, well said! I don't at all enjoy much of how some composers apparently think cues should sound. The simplest ideas that aren't designed to pummel the listener into the ground tend to be far more compelling (and less exhausting). And lots of instrumentation assigned to a shitty idea is like wrapping a turd in gold foil. Cheers!
Truth to be said, I actually do like to listen to intense music for quite long periods of time... can be epic orchestra, can be djent, can be big-bands with crazy trumpet solos.
I can relate for metal, and for big band music because the music is complex and rich. But I don't know, hearing some okay melody with a not so great bassline applied to a big sample library, and no consideration for any kind of counterpoint doesn't make me want to spend that energy listening..!
I haven’t seen the video yet, but reading the comments I know it will be great. Recently I’ve been listening to Temple of Doom’s soundtrack, and the track “Slave Children’s Crusade” has this really epic feeling even with percussion but doesn’t overdo it. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a film score now with such nuance for an action film.
Soundtracks from this period sounds great and realistic, because they were done with a real orchestra! This track you're talking about is all done by an orchestra that includes probably 3 percussionnists. It's got more of a natural feel then a lot of what is produced today for film, which can be good, but I do also like an hybrid of recording maybe the strings first, then doing a second recording with the woodwinds, then the brasses, then the percussions. This give control over the mixing phase and can let you vary the space of the sound creatively.
@@adavidcompo I know. Real orchestras sound amazing! Actually, on the Apple Music version of Temple of Doom’s soundtrack, you can view the credits of each individual song and see who performed it. It lists six people for percussion. Also, based on that list, there is also a guitarist as well.
Wow! Yeah in some cases, hiring 6 performers each playing one percussion is less expensive then hiring two players playing three each. Also for the sake of a studio recording, it might be better to have one mic per musician so can have some control over the close mics
wtf bro u win my subscription. i first learn to compose epic orchestra and guess what cero gig. then i have to relearn all the styles and things that i skip and i keep learning. the most important thing for me was discover all the worlds that i can create without a single forte note. sorry for my english not my first language
It's hard to refer to what you mean by "Epic Orchestral Music" without giving any examples of said music or any breakdown of those types of tracks Cause No two "Epic Orchestral Music" I've heard tend to sound 100% the same Are you referring to Trailer Music Producers /Two Steps from Hell/Cover Artists who do all the "Epic Orchestral" Covers ?/Certain Types of Videogame Music?/Hybrid Orchestral music? Or are you just referring to one Specific Style of Orchestration where they have Multiple Divisi and Hundreds of Players? Cause I don't think Hans Zimmer is Using 400 Piece Orchestra to make his music sound "Epic" I get the whole message of "You shouldn't write this type of music all the time" And I Do Agree this can hurt your growth as a Composer But I feel a condescending tone from your end as if the Composer who makes those types of music wouldn't have the slightest common sense to reduce the layers when asked to or simply can't. And then Titling the Video "This Orchestration style will RUIN YOUR CAREER" In a Style of Music where there are literally Hundreds upon Hundreds ways of Orchestrating a Single 4 bar piece of music apparently this is the worst of them all. If I had to Listen to any piece of music for more than a given amount of time I'll start to hate it as well "'Less is only more when you know what more is" - Jacob Colier Aside from this Video I really like your Other Videos! I feel any literally any example of 'Epic Orchestral Music" In this video would have helped so much! Have a good Day!
Agreed. My personal view: I wouldn't consider Trailer music/hybrid approach to epic music as a pure orchestral music. I think they have more to do with soundscape, synth design and layered experimental textures which is interesting on its own. Having said, there are composers who can write music like John William and at the same time writer trailer music as well. Music is liberal. This statement ""This Orchestration style will RUIN YOUR CAREER" is irrelevant.
Thanks a lot for your comment, which will help bring some nuance to the message I'm delivering! If you want names, it's a trend I noticed on RUclips while doing some research on Google analytics on what type of content in the orchestral composition sphere was the most searched for. Now, I also love these types of videos, and I do say it, I love these youtubers channels! The biggest one I believe is Alex Moukala Tutorials, and again this guy is super talented. But yes, just type « Epic orchestral music » on RUclips and you'll land on hundreds of videos, mostly doing orchestral-sound design hybrid, all with hundreds of thousands of views. It does shows that there's an interest, which is why I did this video in the first place. Now yes, this video message is for aspiring composers, and not established composers who can indeed have more discernement. I'm saying to focus on other things, and not to hide their beginners skills behind huge orchestrations and sound libraries. I hear a lot of beginners who try and compose in this style, but have no awareness of melodic writing, counterpoint, harmony, rhythm, etc. This can be a lot more obvious in solo writing or small ensemble. The video title is shocking yes! But I believe that when you listen to the whole video you get the whole picture, and that it's a bit more nuanced. It seems a little bit more like an editorial video, you noticed well that it was a bit different than my others! Then, if you listen to my other videos, you do realize there is more than just that to create your own path as a composer. Trying different things to attract viewers and have more people join the conversation :) Your quote of Colier is so on point. In the end, there is no right or wrong way to create. Complexity and simplicity in arts has been a aesthetic debate forever. In my personal practice, and certainly more in my music as a contemporary music concert composer, I think it's a balance : simplicity/complexity, movement/stillness, predictability/unpredictability, etc. But here i'm deliberately leaving some nuances to my personal aesthetic view so I can get this message across. Love your comment! Thanks for being an amazing follower!
More examples of less is more with orchestration and film =] : Hildur Guðnadóttir - in Joker, probably the most memorable cue - when Arthur is dancing inside a public washroom after his first murder - was all done on the cello. (I want to say it was her who did it as she is also a cellist). She got the Oscar for Best Original Score for it =D Vangelis - he did everything himself, but even when it sounds full, it is still very deliberate and well-chosen for whatever is needed. Another Oscar winner =] And while this is about music in general but an example of how "layering" can backfire: Oasis's Be Here Now =D
Thanks for these! And...I love the song from Oasis! I think there's this room effect that make it sound huge and overwhelming. Not sure if the rest of the album is the same, but this can be effective for like one song in contrast with the others.
@@adavidcompoThat's another example of something being too long. The whole album is over 70 minutes and the average song length is 6 to 7 minutes. And everything sounds like a chorus. In a way ... this is also similar to the long-standing "Loudness Wars" where people realise that having dynamics and contrasts in music is a good thing =] At any rate, cheers and looking forward to more =]
This. I have seen epic orchestral remixes of some orchestral soundtracks and for some reason all they do is slap some big room reverb, add cinematic drums, have a choir sing the melody line and have loud brass. Ironically, it ends up sounding less epic and more emotionally artificial than the original.
Very wise advice! Otherwise it's like putting all the spices in the kitchen in your dish! I know when I am writing I often add too many things, so, editing myself is very important :)
Thanks! Yes, I love to compare composing to cooking. I had a teacher who said : « if I don't accept someone's invitation to dinner, it's because I don't like their music, so they will surely be a bad cook! »
everyone trying to be big and epic, be like phillip glass. be smooth and sexy.. hehehe. I know what you mean tho. I am learning a lot of minimal ambient layering recently, it's going good now i learned to use Scatterer in Fmod . game changer trick you can do big music sometimes too, i'm learning dance house beats rn , then psytrance. i do metal , i do orchestra. i learning sound design... there are no boundaries that will restrain my musical progress , letsgo
You’re right! Don’t restrain yourself and learn a lot of different things, even this crazy orchestration style! Flexibility is key when learning composition, it allows you to create your unique style and it’s what’s gonna make people want to work with you!
I left a comment on your new video too. pls dont think i'm hating. just tyring to give some advice.. do not limit yourself to one style . I work in game development and pixel art too, not just music. i also do sound design. . Like ppl don't have to learn other genres if they don't want to. but i'm telling you , it really helps with a demo reel. going from hyped up EDM to insane classical epic stuff. it shows how insane creative a composer can be. One my favorite ppl who worked on game music is Lena Raine, they do a perfect blend of synths and real instrumetns and piano with real drums, and some chiptune edge to their sound. really cool composer.
And thanks for all your comment because it helps nuance what I’m saying here. I’m not saying people should NOT learn certain styles. This video is actually for people who ONLY compose a certain way and always with the same tools. I agree with you on all points you’re bringing! Thanks for tuning in again !
I think you're right under the premise, but not all of os are looking for a "career" in music. If it's just doing art for doing art, then you should absolutely do whatever you like.
Definitely! It's really only a career tip in the long run. But even composers of careers should allow themselves to do whatever they enjoy doing. I enjoy trying out these crazy sound libraries, but I'm just aware that they might not fit most of the projects I'm working on.
Very good video, great advice! I wish more people realised this, and stopped writing insane unplayable and most the time unnatural sounding orchestral music. The massive drums that have the reverb of an empty warehouse while the rest of the orchestra has a different reverb is so jarring to listen to. I'm very biased as I absolutely despise that kind of music that is trying to imitate some grand unrealistic image of "epic" Hollywood music, it's not for me. 😉
Interesting topic. I'm no budding film composer, though my interests are in writing, recording and producing music as a creative hobby. The reason I find this topic interesting is because, in other areas, of the fields I reference above, I've seem similar responses from You Tubers (content creators I feel have integrity), likewise bemoaning the trends in their fields that seem born of the You Tube age. For example, experienced audio engineers, despairing at the nonsense channels that fuel the rush towards 'next best thingism and new-ism'. Or the facile trends of 'influencers', that act as liitle more than paid advertising voices for hardware or plugin manufacturers, but are empty of any real substantive engineering background themselves. That starts the rot. It's then picked up by budding, if inexperienced, wannabe's that also live in the world of instant internet gratification, the 'button that promises', and is, apparently, easy! It's tough, but sometimes you just need to move away from the gush and the rush, and put in the hours instead. Happy composing
Such a beautiful thought, thank you! It's a great analogy to a lot of different tendencies in music indeed (like in mixing and mastering) but also in the fields you mention. They are a part of our lives now, so we might as well use them wisely (I'm trying to use my channel in this way!).
C'est certainement un style qui se vaut à certains égards. Il faut être prêt à pouvoir le produire en tant que compositeur ou artiste sonore, mais suffit de le faire avec de la nuance et un bon contrôle orchestral.
This is super helpful, thank you! I have a hard time figuring out how to balance my orchestration. Is this section too long? Too short? To busy? Not enough? I think I get caught up in the "here and now" and low retention rate of society and think I need my music to be big and fast. Are there any places to go to help me with this or do you have a video somewhere on this?
My pleasure ! I have two videos about orchestrating a piano piece, one is presenting five steps and the other one the full process (1h30 video). They are in my Orchestration playlist. Otherwise I do talk about phrasing and duration in other videos which I believe can be helpful for you! But yeah, figuring out the form and what the discourse is a challenge. Take your time to compose and to think about your music, and you’ll make the right decisions :)
I definitely enjoy writing for smaller ensembles. Writing for string quartet is my favourite. “Epic” is just an excuse for not writing worked through music but fall back on textures and atmospheres. Bloody boring!
Whilst I feel like this is a good advice - learning the intricacies and nuances of music composition, isn't the point of being a musician to make whatever you want to make. Imagine you told a young Hans Zimmer 'stop being so over the top'. I'd rather someone hire me for my over the top taste than not at all.
Yes you have a point, and I don’t think the real problem is necessarily ‘epic music’, it’s that there’s a danger to use this big orchestration to hide flaws. And Zimmer to me is more ‘over the top’ in his creativity with the studio rather than in his orchestrations. Travelling the world to find the best performers, working and experimenting with them in the studio, or in weird places to record, that to me is just a real authentic talented artist who’s thinking outside the box. I wouldn’t say that all people trying to imitate him poorly are in that same category.
@@adavidcompo I see your point. Duplicating 5 staccato strings and layering it with 100 synths doesn't make it good, it just makes it louder. Start intricate and precise and then move outward.
i hate the type of film music where there is everything at once, but nothing really. When there is a full choir only to sing the same melody in uni sono what the strings play
Well said, Mozart is really a champion in that regard. He embodied through his music the whole classical aesthetic. Thanks a lot for your good words :)
I think people are starting to get burned out on epic music big bramy trailer soundtracks ...I think it's time to go back to the classical more chilled sounds and technics
You're right, and it's cool because this will bring more real performers in the studio instead of just using sound libraries. I just hope composers who are only doing these now for trailers will start to prepare by studying the writing for smaller ensembles.
I agree with you. I've been fighting this "Epic Orchestral" Genre for as long as I can remember. Mainly because the approach to "Epic Orchestral Music" is, more often than not, synonymous with a composer not knowing how a real orchestra works and how to write for it. And this is getting boring pretty fast because it's making film and game music monotonous and bland.
True! I believe that technology can help us create, but we can't completely dump everything we learned in instrumental writing before. And yeah it does get boring pretty fast. It makes me think of the trend in music mastering of always making things louder and louder, it's especially noticeable in the heavy metal industry (in which some of my projects gravitate around). No dynamic, no place to breathe, just a wall of sound that quickly gets tiring for the ears. It can be a cool effect for short cue, and that's why we hear it in short trailers or advertisements (30 sec or so), but longer than that you just can't.
It's the same people who create an Epic Version of Hans Zimmers "Time"... isn't that piece epic enough? Everybody has the choice: Being a RUclips-Musician or being a real musician.
So epic, and yet very simply orchestrated. I love the long crescendo in this! And...there's nothing wrong in being a RUclips musician (look at me... :D although more of an educator here), but yeah I get what you mean!
I avoid watching trailers (and CNN) because of the annoying, overhyped, so called epic "music". Totally agree: subtlety and depth are key to a good (under)score.
I'm definitely also on board with subtlety and depth! It seems this type of music has it's uses, and I would not say it's all bad. Hans Zimmer is an example of someone who has control over a large orchestration-sound, but he's also not always doing this kind of orchestration.
Hans Zimmer started it, but I'd say it's wrong to think that all of his music is like this. He's an example of someone who have control within this style. I'm talking more about composers who, since Zimmer's music began to be knowned, have been trying to imitate him and to push the boundaries super far. The message behind this video is : don't try to sound like someone else, do your own thing!
Havent watched it in full but ready to call the clickbaity title, no orchestration style will ruin anyones career, hahaha. Stop pretending we matter, mate, orchestration is a rounding error in any big project. You are not important, i am not important, do you job and move on, lol, dont make pretentious videos about it :-)
Well if you watch the video, you’d realize that what I say is a bit more nuanced than the title! If you want a short version : Composing ONLY like this will prevent you from developing other skills required when composing. And I believe you’re wrong : orchestration is not a rounding error in any big project. It can redefine completely a scene in a movie, and it’s the subtle moves are what make a great composer. If you think you don’t matter in your industry, well I wish you find a better working environment!
Here's an example of a recent project, featuring a more refined approach to the string orchestra!
ruclips.net/video/4518Y44vtPg/видео.html
I always find things that are done up to sound "larger than life" with 20 horns and drums that sound like explosions actually have the opposite affect on me. It just sounds so cheesy. It's so over the top it sounds like a parody. Stuff written properly for a real orchestra will always be more effective.
Real orchestra is always the way to go! But unfortunately not always accessible. I hope that when this trend will die out, producers will be more opened to provide budget for real orchestras!
Your comments took me back to my olde music college days, before computers. You imagined a score for orchestra, and spent hours drawing the score on huge manuscript paper. Then the cost, of bribing musicians to play your music (brass players were always more expensive in pubs). I guess the parallel is that filmmakers have a budget too and in the professional world everyone is trying to make a living. You've got to be realistic and creative!
I still work with manuscript paper for all my concert music! Although I do the parts and final score on Sibelius, but I like to work with paper and away from the computer for the most creative parts.
But yes we could say that people try to be creative with the budget they have, and unfortunately we can’t all have access to a real orchestra very often. So orchestral libraries can be quite helpful in that sense !
Finally, someone actually say this! 🙏
I when I compose, I try to keep it simple, catchy, and easy to listen. Not too much bass, not too heavy or not too high pitch.
I was frustrated with this type of heavy arrangements, it actually gave me will and desire to compose something softer, subtle and smooth.
That's a great reaction to this, we need all kinds of musical discourses!
In my opinion, those people who make those "EPIC ORCHESTRAL MUSIC TUTORIAL" videos just do those videos to feed the algorithm.
Sure, big epic brash orchestral music is exciting, but as you said, nobody will really commission you to make this sort of music, or at least, not as often as you might think.
Also yeah they have templates that are bigger than a planet and it's just not needed.
Really good points in this video.
Thanks a lot!
I HATE the term EPIC ORCHESTRAL! The biggest problem with this type of "orchestration" is that it's not entirely practical in real life. Even though I work with sample libraries for the majority of my work, I always write with real players in mind, ensuring that the music is playable and practical and ready for a music stand if the budget allows. Great video!
You right, just because something sounds good doesn’t necessarily mean your players can play them.
That’s a wise approach to your instrumental sounds, something I do myself as well! Making sound libraries sound real is another challenge, but a great way to develop your skills to write for real players when you don’t have access to it.
I studied with Alan Belkin at the University of Montreal (he has a great RUclips channel), and he really was one of the first of his generation to use MIDI mock-ups to anticipate how it would sound on the real orchestra. It’s a great tool and an amazing lesson !
@@adavidcompo excellent! I am friend of Alan's, and he is fantastic teacher and composer!
He is great isn't he! Did advanced harmony classes with him and a fugue class which was amazing.
Thanks for saying this! at last!!
This is so important stuff, I feel some dangerous atmosphere of composers trying to sound like Zimmer and to sound "epic", I understand it is great, but there are more things, subtle and interesting ways to write music.
Every artist has a unique way, just listen to yourself and trust the process.
Excelent video, thanks again.
Yes! And I believe this trend will die off, and sound creators and composers need to start thinking about this.
Very valid points to this. Though epic orchestral music won't go away anytime soon, I like how they sound and often bring excitement. But, I also don't like how some of them are overly done with 3-4 string and brass layers because at that point, it sounds like a blurry mess. I like to do more melodic, romantic type of orchestral music that tells a story with emotions.
Indeed, Wagner had a very dense way to write for the orchestra, and it's quite expressive, but still very clear!
It’s really true. A number of years ago I scored a film and almost completely messed up a cue by over doing it. It was supposed to be a little dramatic but I took it all the way to devastating at first. I pulled out all the bass instruments and unnecessary tensions and it worked so much better.
Exactly, we've all done it before! It's sometimes a necessary step though to get to what you really want, so it's not all bad after all!
@@adavidcompo I completely agree.
I would also add that the glorified arpeggiator and drum loop "epic" style results in a lot of identical sounding music that sounds exactly like everyone else in line for the job. In the absence of more sophisticated part-writing, melody, use of woodwinds, and relying on the same "epic chord progressions" it's difficult to develop your own signature like what would differentiate Williams from Goldsmith, from Silvestri, or any of the other golden-age composers.
Indeed, that's also my point in this video : find your own voice, and stop imitating badly other composers!
Exactly! I could comment more...but too many words...like too many instruments, tend to obfuscate the message...Great message, young man.....
Less is more, same with words ;) thanks a lot!
@@adavidcompo
“Less isn’t more; more is more!”
Yngwie Malmsteen
Great points you've made here, 3 other soundtrack composers who have nailed the orchestration nuances have been Basil Poledouris, James Horner, Dennis McCarthy and the late Michael Kamen. These composers' orchestration styles often allow the listener to hear the each layer very clearly even during the loudest and heaviest moments. This contrasts with the so-called "Epic Orchestral" style(most "epic orchestral covers") whose orchestration is often oversaturated and becomes very muddy as a result, to the point of losing the composition's own character. It all comes down to using the right size of orchestral/choral forces in the right moment and don't over-or-underdo it!
That's right, it's all about hitting the right balance I believe. Pouledoris music is so gooooood! Love Horner and McCarthy as well, will have to look at Kamen's.
@@adavidcompo My top recommendations of Kamen's work would be Robin Hood, Band of Brothers, From the Earth to the Moon, Die Hard 1-3 and of course Highlander which was co-written with the band Queen. All these soundtracks are on par with John Williams, Howard Shore & James Horner. Kamen's orchestral style also works well for 'true' orchestral covers of pop/rock songs, far better than both 'epic orchestral covers' or the cheesy 'slap-some-drum-&-bass-onto-an-orchestra covers'!
@@jmwoods190Don’t forget about The Iron Giant!
Im not trying to have a career in music... I'm just a visual artist who has started dabbling in music production. I also love those big bombastic orchestrations, but my approach with writing songs has been the same approach I take with my artwork...which is the "do more with less" style. My songs have been pretty simple piano sketches that evolve into some strings and the occasional choir notes, but i haven't even touched a percussion sample or midi yet. And this has been deliberate. I feel that simplicity in music can express just as much excitement as a raging, 100 layer action score and I can learn more about how to be a good musician by taking that approach
Do more with less is a great way to approach music creatively! I just made a new video about simplicity versus complexity, nuancing a bit more what I’m adressing in this video here.
The reason why I'm terrible at epic trailer music stuff (other than I I'm just terrible🤣); I always try to orchestrate for a real orchestra. BUT, I do see the point of it for some modern styles, as long as you know that how you are orchestrating is unrealistic, then go for it. I've also realized over the past few years that a lot of the video game/anime/film/TV music i like and try to emulate is written for much smaller ensembles and not even a full concert orchestra most of the time.
Yep, sound designing can require sometimes to just do bold moves, and I'm not saying to avoid doing this. My message is just to invite composers to diversify their approach, to work on other things!
And yeah I think is so cool that composers have been very creative in the past 20 years with only working with a few players or smaller ensembles, and it's crazy how the studio can make things sound so much bigger.
Point taken. You forgot about one career path though. Fulltime trailer composers actually make big bucks with this orchestration style. It’s an industry in its own right with lots of opportunities for composers who actually want to master and expand on this style.
Indeed, and I don't quite have any freelance composer colleague who is just doing this. But my bet is that these composers work in production companies and they're paid to compose this full time. In that case, you mostly become a technician which can be okay, but maybe not what a composer would aspire in the long term.
I don't know if this trend is going to die out eventually, but when it does I just hope these composers will be able to do all other things a composer can do, which like I said involve a lot of writing for smaller ensembles.
@@adavidcompo I recon having a broad skill set is always an advantage as long as you’ve got your expertise as well.
I know a few big trailer composers. They are not hired to work in house. The custom and production music business is huge and very competitive. The AAA trailer composers are basically on top of the game. It’s an open market and they’re simply their own boss like any filmcomposer would be ;)
Well good to know! It’s certainly a quite specific skill to write super intense music for 30 seconds, but we can recognize that it requires an expertise.
But trailers just use pop music usually...
@@ShaharHarshuvthere is a small current trend of trailers using trailerised re-composed and re-arranged versions of pop songs. Since these versions need to be re-written it doesn’t take away from the composing work plus it’s only a number of trailers that do this since as far as license clearance goes it’s more complicated and expensive. I’m sure someone can also find a trailer that uses an original unaltered popsong but that is definitely not standard practice. So don’t worry the work is there, trailer music composer is still a viable career path atm.
This message makes perfect sense for composers seeking a career. As for myself, I am just a hobbyist and I don't need to make any money from my music, so I just make what I enjoy. I love the extremely booming, lush mega-sound. I have zero interest in writing anything for a real orchestra, even if I had the chance. I have very specific sound in my mind that I really "have" to make, almost for therapeutic purposes (lol), and it usually involves also a lot of synths and sound design. I do love making simple melodies and harmonies as well, but I will always make ultra bombastic, choral, layer-after-layer, all the drums of the world music, simply because it makes me happy and sometimes its also exactly what I like to listen. I am not a fancy musician and I don't want to be, I see myself more as the McDonalds of composers and that's totally fine 😂 Anyway, I really like your channel, I have learned a lot from the short time watching!
Edit: But when I would really have to decide, my all time favorites would be: All of Shores LotR and Williams Harry Potter, both that you mentioned. But I am not skilled enough to ever even try going in such a direction, I just do me. :P
Super cool comment, as I totally get the idea of just doing music for fun and doing the most crazy things possible! One of my music project is a progressive metal band called Chronochromie, and I love pushing the boundaries of the musical discourse within this aesthetic. It's also important to sometimes create with no expectations from anyone.
Can we hear your stuff?
@a.nobodys.nobody Yes!
Contemporary music for a great canadian trio : ruclips.net/video/21Y_BziIfS4/видео.html
My band : ruclips.net/video/OFQCo9R30NU/видео.html
An experimental electroacoustic piece : ruclips.net/video/tSjucjdJU4Q/видео.html
It's quite diverse and experimental, but I also do composition and arrangement for the screen which is generally lighter :)
@@adavidcompo Wow, I love it! Always love when skilled musicians make metal. Often really interesting things emerge. Defo subbed there as well ❤️
Glad you enjoyed! Thanks for the sub, welcome to the channel! :)
Preach it! My favorite orchestra size would be single woodwinds, brass in pairs and chamber strings and percussion. Plenty to work with imo.
Depends on the project though I'd say. There is a certain emotion a large (but still realistic) ensemble carries that conveys a sense of grandeur. You wouldn't want to score an epic series like Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings like a pocket opera for example. It wouldn't meet the emotional demands of the scope of the story. Choosing the right ensemble for each project is very important in this regard.
@@itznoxy7193 Yeah I guess that's true, but my point was simply if your orchestration is solid and varied you can do a lot with a little. One of my favorite examples of something that is very economical but sounds bigger than it should on paper are Rhespighi Three Botticelli Paintings.
Both of you are right! Some music calls for a bigger ensemble, and others can totally work with a smaller ensemble. I admire Mahler's music in that regard, as his music is such a beautiful mixture between the individuality of the instruments in the more global picture of the orchestra.
@@winknotes Oh for sure, then I completely agree.
Yes! Most of my music that have travelled the world (to this day I've had my music performed in six different countries on two continents) is for only one or up to a handfull of instruments. And I would never have been asked to write anything at all if it hadn't been for having these performances proving that I can compose at all.
To this day (celebrating 20 years since my first "serious" performance of my music) my largest commission was for 3 soloists, two choirs (SATB and childrens choir), strings and piano. And quite frankly I would never have got that either if I hadn't first proven myself in smaller settings.
Indeed, music for smaller ensembles (especially soloists) tends to be played more. I've written many works for orchestras, and most of them have been performed once. But that's also a concert orchestra problem : they don't seem to like playing a lot of new music!
I have a commission to write a cantata for choir, winds and brass. No strings. Obviously I have to be mindful of the brass since it's a 30 minute work and they cannot blow fff for the entire time. In fact, very little of the time, unless I want them to kill their embouchures.
Oh my this is a real challenge!!! Indeed, you have to let things breathe. This sounds like a great project, congratulations, and good luck !
Bravo, well said! I don't at all enjoy much of how some composers apparently think cues should sound. The simplest ideas that aren't designed to pummel the listener into the ground tend to be far more compelling (and less exhausting). And lots of instrumentation assigned to a shitty idea is like wrapping a turd in gold foil. Cheers!
Ahah love the image of the turd in gold foil, that's pretty much it!
Truth to be said, I actually do like to listen to intense music for quite long periods of time... can be epic orchestra, can be djent, can be big-bands with crazy trumpet solos.
I can relate for metal, and for big band music because the music is complex and rich. But I don't know, hearing some okay melody with a not so great bassline applied to a big sample library, and no consideration for any kind of counterpoint doesn't make me want to spend that energy listening..!
I haven’t seen the video yet, but reading the comments I know it will be great. Recently I’ve been listening to Temple of Doom’s soundtrack, and the track “Slave Children’s Crusade” has this really epic feeling even with percussion but doesn’t overdo it. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a film score now with such nuance for an action film.
Soundtracks from this period sounds great and realistic, because they were done with a real orchestra! This track you're talking about is all done by an orchestra that includes probably 3 percussionnists. It's got more of a natural feel then a lot of what is produced today for film, which can be good, but I do also like an hybrid of recording maybe the strings first, then doing a second recording with the woodwinds, then the brasses, then the percussions. This give control over the mixing phase and can let you vary the space of the sound creatively.
@@adavidcompo I know. Real orchestras sound amazing! Actually, on the Apple Music version of Temple of Doom’s soundtrack, you can view the credits of each individual song and see who performed it. It lists six people for percussion. Also, based on that list, there is also a guitarist as well.
Wow! Yeah in some cases, hiring 6 performers each playing one percussion is less expensive then hiring two players playing three each. Also for the sake of a studio recording, it might be better to have one mic per musician so can have some control over the close mics
@@adavidcompo yeah. Though I still can’t find the guitar lol
wtf bro u win my subscription. i first learn to compose epic orchestra and guess what cero gig. then i have to relearn all the styles and things that i skip and i keep learning. the most important thing for me was discover all the worlds that i can create without a single forte note. sorry for my english not my first language
Welcome to the channel! Yes, there’s a whole range of dynamics to explore, and it can all help you shape a more expressive music !
It's hard to refer to what you mean by "Epic Orchestral Music" without giving any examples of said music or any breakdown of those types of tracks Cause No two "Epic Orchestral Music" I've heard tend to sound 100% the same
Are you referring to Trailer Music Producers /Two Steps from Hell/Cover Artists who do all the "Epic Orchestral" Covers ?/Certain Types of Videogame Music?/Hybrid Orchestral music?
Or are you just referring to one Specific Style of Orchestration where they have Multiple Divisi and Hundreds of Players? Cause I don't think Hans Zimmer is Using 400 Piece Orchestra to make his music sound "Epic"
I get the whole message of "You shouldn't write this type of music all the time" And I Do Agree this can hurt your growth as a Composer But I feel a condescending tone from your end as if the Composer who makes those types of music wouldn't have the slightest common sense to reduce the layers when asked to or simply can't.
And then Titling the Video "This Orchestration style will RUIN YOUR CAREER" In a Style of Music where there are literally Hundreds upon Hundreds ways of Orchestrating a Single 4 bar piece of music apparently this is the worst of them all.
If I had to Listen to any piece of music for more than a given amount of time I'll start to hate it as well
"'Less is only more when you know what more is" - Jacob Colier
Aside from this Video I really like your Other Videos! I feel any literally any example of 'Epic Orchestral Music" In this video would have helped so much! Have a good Day!
Agreed. My personal view: I wouldn't consider Trailer music/hybrid approach to epic music as a pure orchestral music. I think they have more to do with soundscape, synth design and layered experimental textures which is interesting on its own. Having said, there are composers who can write music like John William and at the same time writer trailer music as well. Music is liberal. This statement ""This Orchestration style will RUIN YOUR CAREER" is irrelevant.
Thanks a lot for your comment, which will help bring some nuance to the message I'm delivering!
If you want names, it's a trend I noticed on RUclips while doing some research on Google analytics on what type of content in the orchestral composition sphere was the most searched for. Now, I also love these types of videos, and I do say it, I love these youtubers channels! The biggest one I believe is Alex Moukala Tutorials, and again this guy is super talented. But yes, just type « Epic orchestral music » on RUclips and you'll land on hundreds of videos, mostly doing orchestral-sound design hybrid, all with hundreds of thousands of views. It does shows that there's an interest, which is why I did this video in the first place.
Now yes, this video message is for aspiring composers, and not established composers who can indeed have more discernement. I'm saying to focus on other things, and not to hide their beginners skills behind huge orchestrations and sound libraries. I hear a lot of beginners who try and compose in this style, but have no awareness of melodic writing, counterpoint, harmony, rhythm, etc. This can be a lot more obvious in solo writing or small ensemble.
The video title is shocking yes! But I believe that when you listen to the whole video you get the whole picture, and that it's a bit more nuanced. It seems a little bit more like an editorial video, you noticed well that it was a bit different than my others! Then, if you listen to my other videos, you do realize there is more than just that to create your own path as a composer. Trying different things to attract viewers and have more people join the conversation :)
Your quote of Colier is so on point. In the end, there is no right or wrong way to create. Complexity and simplicity in arts has been a aesthetic debate forever. In my personal practice, and certainly more in my music as a contemporary music concert composer, I think it's a balance : simplicity/complexity, movement/stillness, predictability/unpredictability, etc. But here i'm deliberately leaving some nuances to my personal aesthetic view so I can get this message across.
Love your comment! Thanks for being an amazing follower!
@@adavidcompo Alex came to mind immediately while watching your video.
More examples of less is more with orchestration and film =] :
Hildur Guðnadóttir - in Joker, probably the most memorable cue - when Arthur is dancing inside a public washroom after his first murder - was all done on the cello. (I want to say it was her who did it as she is also a cellist). She got the Oscar for Best Original Score for it =D
Vangelis - he did everything himself, but even when it sounds full, it is still very deliberate and well-chosen for whatever is needed. Another Oscar winner =]
And while this is about music in general but an example of how "layering" can backfire: Oasis's Be Here Now =D
Thanks for these!
And...I love the song from Oasis! I think there's this room effect that make it sound huge and overwhelming. Not sure if the rest of the album is the same, but this can be effective for like one song in contrast with the others.
@@adavidcompoThat's another example of something being too long. The whole album is over 70 minutes and the average song length is 6 to 7 minutes. And everything sounds like a chorus.
In a way ... this is also similar to the long-standing "Loudness Wars" where people realise that having dynamics and contrasts in music is a good thing =]
At any rate, cheers and looking forward to more =]
I like long albums! I'm a big progressive rock and metal fan.
Thanks for tuning in!
This. I have seen epic orchestral remixes of some orchestral soundtracks and for some reason all they do is slap some big room reverb, add cinematic drums, have a choir sing the melody line and have loud brass. Ironically, it ends up sounding less epic and more emotionally artificial than the original.
😂 that’s so weird that somebody will do that…people do that with like some John Williams scores ?
@@adavidcompo yes if you type '' ____ epic version on youtube'' you will surely find some.
Very wise advice! Otherwise it's like putting all the spices in the kitchen in your dish! I know when I am writing I often add too many things, so, editing myself is very important :)
Thanks! Yes, I love to compare composing to cooking. I had a teacher who said : « if I don't accept someone's invitation to dinner, it's because I don't like their music, so they will surely be a bad cook! »
@@adavidcompo My maestro used to say 'only take your best dish to the potluck' :D
everyone trying to be big and epic, be like phillip glass. be smooth and sexy.. hehehe. I know what you mean tho. I am learning a lot of minimal ambient layering recently, it's going good now i learned to use Scatterer in Fmod . game changer trick
you can do big music sometimes too, i'm learning dance house beats rn , then psytrance. i do metal , i do orchestra. i learning sound design... there are no boundaries that will restrain my musical progress , letsgo
You’re right! Don’t restrain yourself and learn a lot of different things, even this crazy orchestration style! Flexibility is key when learning composition, it allows you to create your unique style and it’s what’s gonna make people want to work with you!
I left a comment on your new video too. pls dont think i'm hating. just tyring to give some advice.. do not limit yourself to one style . I work in game development and pixel art too, not just music. i also do sound design. . Like ppl don't have to learn other genres if they don't want to. but i'm telling you , it really helps with a demo reel. going from hyped up EDM to insane classical epic stuff. it shows how insane creative a composer can be. One my favorite ppl who worked on game music is Lena Raine, they do a perfect blend of synths and real instrumetns and piano with real drums, and some chiptune edge to their sound. really cool composer.
And thanks for all your comment because it helps nuance what I’m saying here. I’m not saying people should NOT learn certain styles. This video is actually for people who ONLY compose a certain way and always with the same tools. I agree with you on all points you’re bringing! Thanks for tuning in again !
I think you're right under the premise, but not all of os are looking for a "career" in music. If it's just doing art for doing art, then you should absolutely do whatever you like.
Definitely! It's really only a career tip in the long run. But even composers of careers should allow themselves to do whatever they enjoy doing. I enjoy trying out these crazy sound libraries, but I'm just aware that they might not fit most of the projects I'm working on.
This clickbait style will ruin your career!
😂 It's an hyperbole!
Yeah right. Nick Beato's titles are nothing but clickbait
Very good video, great advice! I wish more people realised this, and stopped writing insane unplayable and most the time unnatural sounding orchestral music. The massive drums that have the reverb of an empty warehouse while the rest of the orchestra has a different reverb is so jarring to listen to.
I'm very biased as I absolutely despise that kind of music that is trying to imitate some grand unrealistic image of "epic" Hollywood music, it's not for me. 😉
Glad you enjoyed!
Interesting topic. I'm no budding film composer, though my interests are in writing, recording and producing music as a creative hobby. The reason I find this topic interesting is because, in other areas, of the fields I reference above, I've seem similar responses from You Tubers (content creators I feel have integrity), likewise bemoaning the trends in their fields that seem born of the You Tube age. For example, experienced audio engineers, despairing at the nonsense channels that fuel the rush towards 'next best thingism and new-ism'. Or the facile trends of 'influencers', that act as liitle more than paid advertising voices for hardware or plugin manufacturers, but are empty of any real substantive engineering background themselves. That starts the rot. It's then picked up by budding, if inexperienced, wannabe's that also live in the world of instant internet gratification, the 'button that promises', and is, apparently, easy! It's tough, but sometimes you just need to move away from the gush and the rush, and put in the hours instead. Happy composing
Such a beautiful thought, thank you! It's a great analogy to a lot of different tendencies in music indeed (like in mixing and mastering) but also in the fields you mention. They are a part of our lives now, so we might as well use them wisely (I'm trying to use my channel in this way!).
Vraiment d'accord sur le fond! Personnellement, je n'ai jamais été capable avec le style "epic orchestral".
C'est certainement un style qui se vaut à certains égards. Il faut être prêt à pouvoir le produire en tant que compositeur ou artiste sonore, mais suffit de le faire avec de la nuance et un bon contrôle orchestral.
This is super helpful, thank you! I have a hard time figuring out how to balance my orchestration. Is this section too long? Too short? To busy? Not enough? I think I get caught up in the "here and now" and low retention rate of society and think I need my music to be big and fast. Are there any places to go to help me with this or do you have a video somewhere on this?
My pleasure !
I have two videos about orchestrating a piano piece, one is presenting five steps and the other one the full process (1h30 video). They are in my Orchestration playlist.
Otherwise I do talk about phrasing and duration in other videos which I believe can be helpful for you! But yeah, figuring out the form and what the discourse is a challenge. Take your time to compose and to think about your music, and you’ll make the right decisions :)
@@adavidcompo thank you for the response! I will definitely check those out!
congrats on 1k subs :)
Merci!!!
I definitely enjoy writing for smaller ensembles. Writing for string quartet is my favourite. “Epic” is just an excuse for not writing worked through music but fall back on textures and atmospheres. Bloody boring!
As a piano only composer (for now) I see this as a win but making a concerto is gonna be hard
Concertos are super hard to write! You have to leave space in the orchestra for the soloist, it’s often a challenge!
@@adavidcompo might just copy the style of chopins concertos lol
Yep worked for him ;)
Whilst I feel like this is a good advice - learning the intricacies and nuances of music composition, isn't the point of being a musician to make whatever you want to make. Imagine you told a young Hans Zimmer 'stop being so over the top'. I'd rather someone hire me for my over the top taste than not at all.
Yes you have a point, and I don’t think the real problem is necessarily ‘epic music’, it’s that there’s a danger to use this big orchestration to hide flaws.
And Zimmer to me is more ‘over the top’ in his creativity with the studio rather than in his orchestrations. Travelling the world to find the best performers, working and experimenting with them in the studio, or in weird places to record, that to me is just a real authentic talented artist who’s thinking outside the box. I wouldn’t say that all people trying to imitate him poorly are in that same category.
@@adavidcompo I see your point. Duplicating 5 staccato strings and layering it with 100 synths doesn't make it good, it just makes it louder. Start intricate and precise and then move outward.
i hate the type of film music where there is everything at once, but nothing really. When there is a full choir only to sing the same melody in uni sono what the strings play
Yes! Just a big unisson! These would benefit from counterpoint.
Yes! These would definitely benefit from learning about counterpoint.
The music is not in the notes, but in the silence between. Mozart. By the way I LOVE your channel.
Well said, Mozart is really a champion in that regard. He embodied through his music the whole classical aesthetic. Thanks a lot for your good words :)
Great advice
Glad it was helpful!
I think people are starting to get burned out on epic music big bramy trailer soundtracks ...I think it's time to go back to the classical more chilled sounds and technics
You're right, and it's cool because this will bring more real performers in the studio instead of just using sound libraries. I just hope composers who are only doing these now for trailers will start to prepare by studying the writing for smaller ensembles.
I agree with you. I've been fighting this "Epic Orchestral" Genre for as long as I can remember. Mainly because the approach to "Epic Orchestral Music" is, more often than not, synonymous with a composer not knowing how a real orchestra works and how to write for it. And this is getting boring pretty fast because it's making film and game music monotonous and bland.
True! I believe that technology can help us create, but we can't completely dump everything we learned in instrumental writing before. And yeah it does get boring pretty fast. It makes me think of the trend in music mastering of always making things louder and louder, it's especially noticeable in the heavy metal industry (in which some of my projects gravitate around). No dynamic, no place to breathe, just a wall of sound that quickly gets tiring for the ears. It can be a cool effect for short cue, and that's why we hear it in short trailers or advertisements (30 sec or so), but longer than that you just can't.
@@adavidcompo True. Even if I'd like to see (*hear) some nuance in trailers as well
Also - emotion can be as simple as a solo instrument played by a real human being.
Yes! Love these simple choices made by composers, and much more accessible then a grand orchestra.
Exactly!!
I know how to write the small. I don´t know how to write for other people.
It's something you can learn! I talk a lot about how to write for real musicians on my channel, hopefully this will help.
I often find the bigger the orchestra is , the less personal the scene. and MOST scenes are personal.
Indeed! Unless you're in an action movie, but even then there are some downtimes, because you can't have action for 2h straight.
It's the same people who create an Epic Version of Hans Zimmers "Time"... isn't that piece epic enough?
Everybody has the choice: Being a RUclips-Musician or being a real musician.
So epic, and yet very simply orchestrated. I love the long crescendo in this!
And...there's nothing wrong in being a RUclips musician (look at me... :D although more of an educator here), but yeah I get what you mean!
I avoid watching trailers (and CNN) because of the annoying, overhyped, so called epic "music". Totally agree: subtlety and depth are key to a good (under)score.
I'm definitely also on board with subtlety and depth! It seems this type of music has it's uses, and I would not say it's all bad. Hans Zimmer is an example of someone who has control over a large orchestration-sound, but he's also not always doing this kind of orchestration.
It is the Hans Zimmer style.
Hans Zimmer started it, but I'd say it's wrong to think that all of his music is like this. He's an example of someone who have control within this style.
I'm talking more about composers who, since Zimmer's music began to be knowned, have been trying to imitate him and to push the boundaries super far. The message behind this video is : don't try to sound like someone else, do your own thing!
Havent watched it in full but ready to call the clickbaity title, no orchestration style will ruin anyones career, hahaha. Stop pretending we matter, mate, orchestration is a rounding error in any big project. You are not important, i am not important, do you job and move on, lol, dont make pretentious videos about it :-)
Well if you watch the video, you’d realize that what I say is a bit more nuanced than the title!
If you want a short version : Composing ONLY like this will prevent you from developing other skills required when composing.
And I believe you’re wrong : orchestration is not a rounding error in any big project. It can redefine completely a scene in a movie, and it’s the subtle moves are what make a great composer. If you think you don’t matter in your industry, well I wish you find a better working environment!
@@adavidcompo thank you for your nice wishes and your long comment!