Is This osu! Player Breaking the PP System?
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- inb4 people start doubletapping 1500pp scores
inb4 genetics (tbf, he does have good genetics, but that's not really the point of the video lul)
Shoutouts to aetrna himself for checking out the script for this vid
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Replace pp with dp (dopeness points)
delicious paraphernalia
lol
fair enough. I gotta say your plays are pretty dope
lol
u would be #1 in that system for sure
if stamina and speed becomes the new meta of farming pp, then that gets nerfed and dt gets buffed again, Its just how it goes
Speed always wins
you're the new kariyu
Inb4 they implement changes that were made to nerf merami
Like in early 2019
balance team literally deems a skillset “overpowered” every month
imo, pp just sucks. it’s a linear measurement for player skill, which is incredibly variable
@@44tharia46 That's why I switched to osu!mania, the system is stupid and hard to rank up.
a quote from aireu sums it up pretty well: "merami is 5 years ahead of ANYONE else in speed"
btw this has nothing to do with the poll I made earlier. This was made like a week before that lmao
Edit: Really enjoying the discussion in the comments! I realized I missed a few crucial points and didn't clarify certain things enough, so I really appreciate y'all for helping me out in that regard.
Its mou ii kai not mou li kai, but i love your content!
@@Mioscape that's what the annotation was for
@@Kariyu101 oMg iS tHaTtt KaRIYU????
@@Kariyu101 lol
@@Kariyu101 omg kiryu- i mean kariyu
this player is... Etterna
That's why he has great stamina.
That's actually the right way to pronounce it lol, check his Twitter
my username starts with eterna lol
i always thought his name was aetma lmao
i might have to check my vision
And i think that's pretty cool
"Mou Li kai"
The thing is.. it's actually "Mou i Kai"
@@primalinea682 yeah we know...
Well, it's mō ī kai, also spelled mou ii kai. But I guess it's the same case as with ‘Levan Polkka’ which is actually ievan polkka but it sounds wrong and the I looks like an L, so people say it wrong.
language was over the moment someone decided to make I and l look the same
@@ricebowoy I mean, if it bothers you, you can almost certainly change the font of all your (non-Apple) devices to one that shows the difference more clearly.
"the pp system has gotten a new revision recently, albeit still pointless IMO because they still haven't gotten rid of combo scoring" LMAO good take
The problem with implementing such a big change like combo scoring is that it would take an immense amount of effort and time due to just how many scores they'd have to recalculate and how they'd factor in players playing and submitting scores WHILE they're recalculating everything. If anything I'd say this pp hotfix is useful as a benchmark to see what they can do in terms of score/pp changes and how it'd affect the community and game as a whole.
like getting rid of combo scoring*
@@rekunan nah it's just that the playerbase would be salty
@@bananya6020 I'm sure the majority of the players would want a change that's at least similar to removing combo scoring (maybe smthng like 70% acc 30% combo)
Why is it good take?
I would say "breaking" the pp system necessary in order for people to have incentive to play in different playstyles. If he starts setting 1.3k pp scores, then that might be fodder for other players to start working on the speed the same way that merami does. And if it turns out that no one can match up to merami and merami is still considered world-class, then that unparalleled ability should reflect in his performance points, no?
This reminds me a lot of the strumming vs tapping on GH. The ratio of players that play exclusively tapping vs those that are balanced and those that focus exclusively on strumming is probably something ridiculous along the lines of 300:30:1 (made up number obviously) so the understanding of how much a strumming FC (or non-tapping FCs) is worth has always been a complete mess for a decade.
A good example is Pillars of Mercy which is one of the only FC that ever took off in popularity, being considered the best strumming FC of all time until recently. Took 5 years for the first FC and another 5 years for the second FC.
How does it compare to the other top FCs done? It does not. Because well over 90% of the top players over the decade did not care to improve their strumming skillset to the point that even back in 2018 you could count all the top players that could do strumming stuff with just your fingers. If a PP system existed for the game, strumming scores would never be representative of their true worth because of the lack of data to make fair assessments.
I think this is an interesting idea for a video, and you bring up some points I've thought about too. However, I don't think you've explored it in enough depth here to give a proper answer.
The core question that you're posing is, "Is speed a relatively undiscovered skillset in osu! compared to skills like aim and accuracy?" There's some context that needs to be understood to answer this question. Firstly, speed was extremely underrated by the pp system before 2018. Changes like the HD rebalance (mid-2018) and general PP rebalance (early 2019) buffed speed significantly, but before then it was useless to play speed if you were motivated by pp (which a lot of people were). This meant that the pool of speed players was much smaller, and therefore the level of play at the very top was lower. Now that speed is worth a lot more pp, speed plays have gotten huge attention in the community, with players like RyuK and aetrna becoming popular. This will lead to a new generation of speed players who will push the skillset further than ever before.
The argument in the video is something like this: "This new generation of players might be able to set scores at the level of current top speed plays, showing that those speed scores are not as objectively hard as previously thought, it's just that at the time the playerbase was too small to achieve those scores. These new players will be able to get massive amounts of pp, showing that speed was actually overweighted - it's just that no one bothered playing it until recently."
This is a reasonable argument and I think that it's true to some extent, but it doesn't fully consider the difficulty of aetrna's scores in the grand scheme of things. One point is that there are many skillsets required besides just raw speed to set the scores mentioned in the video. One example that gets used is Sidetracked Day, which would be worth about 1600pp for an FC. Most of the difficulty of that score actually comes from flow aim, not speed/stamina. Another example used is Mou Ii Kai, but there's a high jump and flow aim requirement for that map as well. What sets aetrna apart from other speed players is his unparalleled ability to control his aim at those high bpms, and I doubt that his scores will be matched soon even if speed becomes a popular skillset. Sure, there's not much competition for him now, but even in a few years, I'd expect many of his scores from 2020/2021 to still be seen as the best in the game.
The second main point is that aetrna is very far ahead in speed, which isn't as niche of a skillset as it's made out to be in the video. Let's take 3 mod speed as an example. Before aetrna, there were players like Matrix and unko who could play 3 mod speed at a high level. In 2018/2019, they were pushing the limits of what was possible. Then aetrna came and shat all over people in terms of 3 mod speed - he was getting 98% on OD11 and 3 modding maps people couldn't play HDDT. He was far and away the best without comparison. These previous players weren't bad, it's just that aetrna was so far ahead that he makes them seem unimpressive. You use an example in your video of ATTang and chordjacks, and I'm not too familiar with this example but I don't think it works as a comparison (correct me if I'm wrong). Firstly, chordjacks seem like a more specialized skill than just "speed". It makes sense that this specialized skill could be pretty undiscovered, but "speed" as a whole is an element core to any rhythm game. Even though the speed playerbase was smaller, that doesn't mean that there weren't people actively pushing the limits (Gayz, XII, Kynan, etc), or that top aim players didn't train their raw speed as well (Rafis, Cookiezi, etc). Despite the history speed has, aetrna is far and away the best speed player, which is extremely impressive considering how competitive every other skillset is. Sure, speed might be relatively unexplored. But aetrna is setting scores years ahead of his time, that no one else can match. It's already been a year since aetrna set his d.m.c score (still one of the best scores in the game), and it seems like people are stil not even close to reaching his skill level.
So personally I wouldn't consider his scores overrated at all, nor do I think his scores will "break" the pp system. They really are just that good, and his scores are too unique to just say that speed isn't explored enough. I'm sure that in five years the new generation of players will continue to blow our minds, but I think we'll be playing catch up with some of the insane scores he's set for years to come.
Love this take. Basically summed up my stance on the video
I think you pointed out my biggest flaw in which I realized now that I summarized the notion of speed a bit too broadly. I meant to imply the speed *with* the flow aim, because I think those two combined are a deadly force for what I consider to have the most potential to cause "game-breaking" pp plays. I think maps that specifically cater to that combination are extremely volatile in which they can either produce no scores at all, or produce potentially 1500+ plays in the future. Sure, Sidetracked days is a very egregious example, but I think there are maps similar to it that can be almost as vulnerable in the future.
Honestly, I think a decent amount of top players have the aim to do what aetrna does, but since most players that are capable of that simply opt for other skillsets, I don't think we'll see many players spend time trying to stream that fast, and then spending the time to learn how to combine the two. I do agree with a decent amount of your points though, and I think there's a lot of arbitration to be taken from all of this, as I'm definitely not trying to cement my opinions with any objectivity whatsoever. I think aetrna is a freak of nature, but it does seem odd that he's taken off so far ahead for his skillset in a game that has the largest playerbase out of any other rhythm game, so being able to set a gap that large is amazing, yet, leaves at the very least somewhat skeptical, I suppose. While I think nerfing short jump tv size meme maps is a good thing, could we reach a point where aetrna's scores are worth 200/300pp more than every top player's jump scores? It just strikes a bit odd to me. I could just be being contrarian, but I also truly think that within the next year, things have the potential to get very messy haha.
@@EtienneYT I guess time will tell whether we see some Mini Meramis
Agreed. Most top players can play "speed" but 300bpm+ is only a category merami and a handful of people can take up on, which is why I think that his scores aren't overrated since not many people even have the potential to reach merami's level.
@@EtienneYT yeah, but it's just like, 270+ bpm spaced streams were only in dreams for any speed player before merami, and actually many people tried to push that skillset as far as they could, but only merami succeeded that much, to a point where his raw speed is somewhat compareable to zestiny or old ceptin's scores, but his spaced stream speed is just too far ahead from anybody else. so i, too, think that his scores are not in any extent overweighted
i think that pp based on combo has some advantages that helped osu get more popular than for example mania
if pp is based so heavily on combo it creates greater suspense when playing, when you know that just one single mistake is enough to make a play near worthless the emotions become much more pronounced.
pp being more random and less indicative of actual skill creates a greater urge to play the game, because you always have a feeling that maybe this will be your lucky day that you fc this map you choked multiple times
and when i play mania its just: oh ok i'm better than i was last time
lets get a new top play
yay 50 more "marvelous" on the map
yay new top play
so i don't think that the pp system will ever abandon combo, as peppy surely knows very well how addictive osu is thanks to it
osu standard should always give more weightage to combo since it's a pretty unique rhythm game where aim is basically the core foundation of the game
It's not just following the rhythm and reading like in other rhythm games (any scrolling based rhythm games). osu! is about being at the correct spot at the correct time and failing to do that i.e. breaking combo should be punished
It should definitely be a bit less weighted than it is currently though, like a 65-35 combo/acc pp split
people are still farming streams, its just that high bpm streams dont give that much so most speed players have 180-200 bpm hr/nm maps in their top plays because high bpm is so hard and usually pretty underweighted. i think aetrna is far ahead speed-wise and he does deserve pp record tbh. the skillset has been explored by many players and he is one of the few that can farm high bpm without cheesing.
thats just not right, there are no players who put as much time into him as exploring this genre, 1800pp just ain't right whilst merami is amazing and ridiculous I still wonder why 1800pp is even possible
@@hudcoomdue4719 there are hundreds of talented speed players who have been grinding for years. speed is not a small niche skillset that only a small minority of players play. Gayz, zestiny, ryuk, karthy, spare, varvalian, rektygon, redpixel, mightydoc, btmc, arnold24x24, informous, andrej, takao, eternum, calideon, just to name a few off the top of my head, are all talented top players who have practiced this skill set for thousands of hours and still can't pull off most of aetrna's scores.
@@r_se Speed of his caliber, its not just the same speed at this point. Maybe the PP system could handle gayz scores, but Merami's score might be too extreme and the algorythm migh need to be fix to try to evaluate scores of that speed and caliber.
@@jijmotorp3079 maybe high bpm spaced streams could break the pp system but i dont think we're there yet, that would happen at like 11-12*, but at that point you could argue that the ridiculously big pp numbers are deserved since those maps are inhumanly difficult.
@@r_se I mean we though we were good with FL after the Shiori HDDTHRFL nerf but FGSky came back and set again some insane pp scores on Guess who is back. I would say the gap between shiori and GWIB is pretty comparable to the gap between the best pp speed maps before merami and merami's scores.
mooo lee ki :DDDDD
this just seems like a case where you're extrapolating a barrier being broken into the system being broken, which it really isn't if you consider the difficulty of his scores
im celebrating my 10th birthday and the moment i get on to RUclips and see that you posted a video? This is my best birthday yet!!
My bday is on the 30th on january but my parents are divorced, so i can celebrate my bday in both my parents houses
Thats epic btw
hbd
Happy birthday. You're so young lmao
happy birthday
Happy birthday!
there's a long comment here by some dude props to him cause i was gonna say the same thing about merami just being so good and so far ahead at his skillset that you would and will wonder if the pp system is really broken
Haven't watched the whole vid yet but I already know its gonna be good.
I've known aetrna before he played osu, I met him in roblox one day (his old roblox videos is still existent till otherwise proven deleted) just having a normal conversation. Never have I thought that he'd turn into someone that is wayy beyond my understanding as a considerably OG osu player that is still 6 digit to this day.
Now I think I should just give up osu (cheating to get my main restricted) and start all over again fresh.
same man, same.
though I didn't realize he was a top osu player until 2021
after 3 years, this video is still an absolute masterpiece
i love you Etienne
etterna moment
freedom dive was not considered underwheighted at the time. but it got buffed 3 times, and is now 908pp. if we scale everything down to make it 800pp flat (makes sense to do that because that's the most iconic score ever, remembered as a first 800pp), mou ii kai would be 1013pp, making it first 1kpp score, while tsukinami becomes first ever 900pp score. although it doesn't change any proportions, it seems much more correct imo, as all of mentioned scores are very hyped and loved. (first 700 is still blue zenith, first 600 is still last journey home)
setting pp barriers based on hype of the score is stupid
@@AGnar0k stupid and impossible
4:02 when you fucking see it
WHEN YOU SEE IT
I think it is appropriate because streams alone are a very difficult skill set to master and the fact that he is doing maps that are hard enough alone, wirh dt, shows that his scores are worth the pp they get
Not a good take, to be honest. As many players in the comment section have remarked, speed IS a skillset that a lot of players have spent years trying to perfect -- it's just that aetrna is the one outlier who's been able to get to a much higher level than anyone else. The same is true for aim with players like WhiteCat/mrekk/Vaxei/badeu/etc. who are just miles ahead of everyone else, it's just that it's like 5 out of a million players rather than only 1 out of 10000. Aim is so much more popular so it's understandable that it would happen to more players rather than just 1.
However, I do think what you said might be true in the future, because there is another rework that's been in development for a while ("delta_t") and it buffs speed plays even more, with aetrna being extremely close to rank 1 in reworked pp. To be perfectly honest, I think the delta_t buffs on speed are way too high (from my own 4-5 digit level, at least)
Also combo playing a part in pp is not a bad thing, tbh. The community always having valued FCs over random plays with low misscount and high acc (as well as DT having a fixed rate of 1.5) have made long-sought-for scores and the game overall a lot more hype imo
all the "speed players" have other skillsets too whilst merami really doesn't ryuk has great aim, red pixel has finger control, gayz is an example that applies to your opinion here but he has so much time put into the game and he isn't putting it into those farm maps that merami is, zestiny is another example but once again he isn't really using his speed on those kinds of maps
@@hudcoomdue4719 merami has really good finger control too (e.g. ascension) and his aim is at 8-9 star level (as a lot of DT stream maps that he's set scores on have pretty damn hard jumps in them as well) it's just that his speed overshadows everything else because of how far ahead it is :p
The chordjack example you brought up ended up emphasizing my opinion on this. The changes in Etterna's weighting for chordjack charts only really came around after a number of players demonstrated their skill in that kind of pattern - ATTang's mastery over chordjacks wasn't exclusive to him and abnormal to the community by then. If a player's getting uniquely rewarded for a level of skill that other players aren't matching, it's hard to justify calling those kinds of scores overvalued. At best, those kinds of scores are too foreign to judge properly.
Thanks to this player and his video "technique" that sometimes appeared on my youtube recommendations without I even knew osu, I am now at 250k with 3 months of playing, becoming a total weeb.
Nice
Damm me too . Exept I'm 6 digit now. 6 month into the game. Thanks yt recommendation.
Woi lmao nice
Don't forget, you're here forever!
@@vkuutti2309 Yes, because it always says "see you next time" but never "goodbye", but I still enjoy the game
@@jonathangarcia257 Remember not to burn yourself, you'll just tire yourself out that way!
You've got a point. It's like if badue was suddenly top 5 because he has unmatched reading ability.
Clearly if no one can replicate him his playstyle is pretty fucking difficult
I totally agree lol
@@VaskoPanev Exactly. His acc is far better than anyone whos trained speed before. Not informous or gayz or anyone comes close to his overall acc on high bpm maps. Maybe ryuk but even then he is slower than merami in general (although he is still really fast don't get me wrong)
Anyway I don't understand why so many ppl are reacting aggressively when we talk about aetrna's skills, maybe they think we are kinda criticizing dt farm jump players, but no, we are just saying merami's speed is insane xd. He is literally ahead of every player in term of speed, he has those 95% A ranks when only few others who try get 60%. Stop crying and recognize his talent please. We have never seen a player like him who can control 300 bpm streams and I am looking forward to see what he will accomplish in the near future. Just look at the lama video 273 bpm for 2 minutes straight. Nobody can fc this on auto. When only one dude is able to do maps that nobody can do, he deserves the recognization and we can say he breaks the rules, yes
The question for me is if stuff like Sidetracked days really worth 1800pp when there is not a single aim player in the game capable of reliably doing 1200-1400 aim-wise even lol. Like 1k and below speed is properly rated but jesus
@@Elitist its just that merami is that far ahead in terms of speed.. it would be like whitecat fc‘Ing 11-12 stars..
Ngl, I expected the pp system to be abused right when the new rework came out lol
Farming ar0 pog
Well the pp system will always be abused in some way. That's how any ranking system works; people find the best way to climb it and they begin to use that.
actually this video aged like wine, a lot of speed players which can and beat merami in speed and general player
nobody have beaten merami's raw speed tho
the main difference is flow aim, but also some chunk of high AR reading and jump skills
aetrna sets some of the most unique scores in the game. insane accuracy on the fastest maps in the game, using dt on maps where no one thought it was possible. he's the one pushing the envelope where no one else can. i think he deserves every point he gets, especially on his 3mod plays, considering that 3mod is essentially the skill ceiling of an individual map and he does so on maps which are absurd compared to the average other 3mod plays going around in today's meta.
Great video!
My 2 cents:
What's really impressive is his unstable rate at those 300bpm streams, keep in mind that is 20 keys per second at 1/16 with two fingers. Haven't seen anyone in my 8 years of playing osu! getting even remotely close as him in that regard. Even more incredible is that he's tapping into the 310bpm+ area fairly consistently is crazy!
My unpopular opinion:
Genetics is a huge factor in raw finger speed (NOT VIBRATING SPEED), and every person will have a different "max speed" they can reach before it becomes *almost* impossible to get faster without over several 10.000 of hours practice and then is also the question how many people who will get artritis/rsi/carpal tunnel on the way which will hinder a lot depending on severity and case to case basis.
I believe everyone can reach 240bpm (16kps @ 1/16) consistently with good unstable rate, but anything above that is unlikely for almost everyone who will ever touch osu!.
In fact there are currently players that can reach Aetrna/Merami's level of speed/consistency, the question is how hard they have to work on it.
My experience on training speed:
As a former super slow player barely being able to do 160bpm streams, I can now hit 260bpm rather good but not very consistently, I either overstream or understream a lot but it took me 6 years of practicing streams to be able to do this and the price I had to pay was severe RSI, but my genes are actually really bad due to several chronic illnesses, so no surprise there.
Just a fun story: I have a friend who never played a rhythm game in his life, he could hit 270 bpm deathstreams with pretty good unstable rate which was below 180 if I recall correctly (many years ago), first time he ever touched the game and I was aiming, it was just a long stream no rhythm and so on, just a long stream of notes, but that still blew my mind and oh boy how jealous I was.
TL;DR:
"Haha aetrna fingers go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"
Oh how times have changed from 2020 to 2022
this question that you poses, to me, is the same as asking 'are "jump and/or aim" plays really worth the amount rewarded by the system?"
to me, probably yes (as a 5 digit who really can't comprehend anything more than 500-600 pp). but we can't really tell if it's truly worth that 'cause y'know SR rating's a mess and that's the main thing.
moe lee kai
I like your points but I think it wasn't not represented clear enough that aetrna's skillset is more than just speed, his ability to read AR11 and/or set 3 mod speed scores is also what "inflates" his scores with PP. Let's look at it from aetrna's PoV, streaming 270BPM is a piece of cake for him, but combine it HR adding OD and reducing circle size combined with HD (which has less effect at higher ARs) and we're still talking AR11! He is not just whack-a-mole-ing circles he streaming it (accurately).
You are right that by the time more speed players get close to him or even surpass him we will be able to evaluate how much these scores are worth (approximately), but right now he is a few levels above any speed player we have seen in terms of raw BPM, stamina and reading.
Edit:
I scrolled through the comments and forgot to mention his aim control.
Let's remember he is near perfectly tracking those 300BPM streams in his scores, that's flow aim but on steroids, it's way beyond impressive and I believe that new players that decide to adapt his playstyle will need more than just speed.
insanely accurate evaluation of 2021 meta, merami and future of speed
he was spot on with flow aim but also wrong about merami, he is still the best tapping player to this day despite being mostly inactive the past few years and speed becoming meta. he really was just that far ahead. if rapid trigger weren't a thing speed would not be broken right now.
I don’t know this guy is fcing maps that have little to no passes on them. So I would say his scores are warranted
Im geninuely so happy this is the pp record, its such a crazy play and so deserved.
I think his scores are sometimes underrated, just by the fact that he's one of the handfull of people who could ever achieve such spees
You say that very few people has these types of skillset that's why we can't determine the true value of that specific skillset. That's because "they can't" because its too hard for the time being, but I personally think that Merami's skillset and level will be unmatched for a couple of years to come.
Speed is and always has been unpopular for a reason, it's underweighted. Also it's not something people are picking up recently, it's one of the main skillsets of Osu and there are many notable players alongside aetrna. However, it's almost always easier for players to advance through the rankings by playing aim maps instead. That's why people are "choosing" to focus on improving their aim ability more. You'll have a hard time finding a player in 3-4-5 digit rank, who's been climbing ranks with speed plays. But you can often bump into a profile who is farming 1-2 jump tv sized farm maps. Not only because they're easier to accomplish, variety of those maps are also abundant.
So, I personally think that aetrna's top plays are not overweighted, since literally no one is even close to being able to replicate his scores while there are tens of players who are capable of replicating most of the 900-1000pp plays on a lucky run.
imo if hes so good that you cant compare him with anyone, then his scores obviously are extraodinary.
I feel like these plays cant be underrated at all. this level of speed is unheard of in the 12 years osu has been around. Players have had so much time to do this and the closest we have seen weren't even close to meramis current ability. I do agree some of the maps are def less aim like ascension to heaven but I do not think that these are overrated.
This is how I’ve rationalized it. let’s say whitecat started osu a few years earlier than he did, and reached his current level of play (or even lower) a few years ago instead of only in 2019 and 2020, for the hypothetical we’ll say he did it in 2016. Should he have played earlier and improved at a similar rate as to how he did (which would be debatable considering map evolution, but for the sake of the hypothetical), he would literally have no competition in this game, and wouldn’t for many, many years. Especially in the aim department. This is how I see Merami currently and his domination of speed, as there are very few skill sets that one can say that they are the indisputable master of. So, basically, what I’m saying is: Merami is like a player who is so far ahead of everyone else, like a 2016 current skill whitecat would be, that I believe we will not be able to put tangible values on his scores until everyone else catches up. That being said, mou ii kai is inarguably the best score ever set in this game, and, until some people catch up to his speed, his pp values should reflect that he is setting the best unmatchable scores in the game.
I don’t have a big sample size of knowing what aetrna has played, but his mou ii kai play is definitely worth what it is. The map incorporates both major skill sets in osu at a very very high degree, aim and speed, which are the most weighted. He also got decent accuracy with it as well, though not very high by some standards, the score is still warranted because of the raw difficulty.
However, if we look at his play on rog-unlimitation, yea I could see how speed centric maps could be over-weighted. I am no way saying that speed is easy, but you make a great point talking about how a skill is just explored a lot less due to a system in game. HR was something that was farmed heavily because of its weight. When people took advantage of its weight, they nerfed it seeing as it is a skill that could be picked up by a large amount when they focus on it. It is just a sample from osu!’s past to consider. Obviously, idk and probably most players don’t know the objective weighting very high speed has, as we don’t have much to look at other than aetrna, but time will tell. If more speed players come up like aetrna en masse, then we know that they aren’t as hard/valuable as we first thought it was. Until then, his speed scores will be among the highest scores in the game with no benchmark but himself.
Edit: Correcting one thing, I mean speed players of aetrna’s skill. I know speed players exist, but none of them at aetrna’s caliber.
You were like 2 years too early on this lol
yeah im kinda a prophet ngl LMAO
When Aetrna started getting amazing scores like mou ii kai I thought they made sense and even an fc on that map would be a fair amount of pp, but after the 11* choke worth 1800+ if fc it starts getting obvious that while these scores are impressive once a mastery of a bpm is made then the pp system is extremely extremely flawed. According to the pp system the 11* sidetracked day is atleast 30-40% harder than mou ii kai and doesn’t really make sense. I think that his scores are amazing and top tier but it should definitely be agreed upon that speed scales much less in difficulty compared to jumps at a 10-11+ level giving exponentially more pp
I’ll mention three thing on this topic:
1) As most of osu players mentioned, speed isn’t undiscovered or anything, it isn’t even that unpopular in high levels, especially since the moment RyuK popped of in like 5th time in the middle of 2020. And there are a couple of players who can go for speed at bpms of 270-300. The thing is, Aetrna’s actual specialty is more of stamina than speed. His bursty speed scores like Xevel or DMC are either matched or close to be matched. His stamina intensive scores though, things like Sidetracked Day, Valley of the Damned or Alice, aren’t even close to be matched. Also with his stamina comes his accuracy because, well, he can acc 300bpm OD11 streams and he is the only one who can do so consistently (besides maybe Unko)
2) I’d say that in terms of pp, his scores are good right now, speed was underweighted for YEARS and now he shows that one can get ranks from it
3) His aim is amazing and it is the reason why he gets these scores, Mou Ii Kai, Xevel and Saigo no Kokuhaku are the examples
Other than that and some opinions, this is an amazing short video of yours, thanks for making osu content!
I try to be an all-rounder in osu, speed streams are rated a bit more highly than it should be I think...one thing I will say is I don't think this will ever be something a lot of farmers go for if it becomes meta, the practice is a lot different in my experience where training your aim is as simple as "play more" and your skills will be honed fairly well in that aspect. For streaming, it's less you notice improvement over time playing 95% of maps and more you have to actively condition yourself as if it were a training regimen and then also make sure you are keeping aim in the flow of your practice as well or you'll shitmiss jumps in something like the deceit. Finding maps and knowing which ones you gain from has a bit of a learning curve as well when you see 7 min stream maps but there might not be any stamina gain from it as all since most streams don't have more than 33 notes to them.
Just wanna say he was 1 pixel away from that 1400 mou ii kai play
I personaly think that his scores are fine the way they are now, on the other hand it is true that there are only handful of players which can play maps like he does and so its hard, for the people who will be updating the pp system in the future, to get the needed information about the difficulty of such maps
or skillset. This is, and will be, a problem for many years (if not forever) to come since people are getting better no matter how many times you change the pp system.
I think some of his scores are weighted accurately, while some are not. I think his rog and ascension to heaven scores could be nerfed by around 100pp just because of his poor acc, but his scores with decent acc like his xevel 99% 2 miss and his sidetracked day short ver. 3 mod play, which got 98% on od11, are fairly well weighted.
He's not just breaking the pp system, he's what god doesn't want humans to be lol
carpal tunnel moment
I think they are since personally I can't hit short streams at 200 BPM, so it just seems really impressive to me
Merami's scores aren't worth enough if we're being real here. There isn't a larger sample size of players doing high bpm streams because most people just physically can't. The average player can hardly even do like 200bpm streams, while Merami is playing 270-330bpm streams while maintaining a good UR. He finished Mazzerin's The Violation with a UR of 106 and an accuracy of 96%, and on the same map, aside from Aricin, the next highest non-HT accuracy is an 87.43%.
I think it's good as how it is right now because it will drive players into pushing this skillsets and so we could see more variety of top players instead of the usual double time aim players, not saying its bad that the top players are filled with DT aim players but it can get a little stale as time goes on if it carries like that
And now he's going to break 1.5k pp soon
Aim is practially pre-built into everyone that uses a tablet since we use our hands to write but speed isn't a technique developed from anything I can think of. So this exact question of "Is This osu! Player Breaking the PP System?" can apply to every aim player that exists. Aim players don't necessarily develop a new skill by abusing aim maps, they just make their current skill set better than it already is, aetrna does this same sort of idea but with streaming. The difference is that aetrna still has to play the aim game + streams + stamina and yeah, top players can stream 200bpm maps, but that seems to be the bare minimum for maps without DT. Even then, most top pp plays are just many-modded aim maps like badeus's C-TYPE play.
Not many players are willing to go through the exhaustion of practicing speed and stamina because it's horribly unrewarding for easy maps. It's more objects to hit, not as many sliders for free acc, difficult to learn and not worth the time in the early ranks as it's usually faster to find a better aim based farm map to get lucky aim on; with this concept of having lucky aim in some cases, for example FGSky's 4 mod of JUSTadICE and his thousands of attempts. It's a LOT easier to get lucky with aim than it is with streaming since aim is a cursor position on a plane with thousands of locations a player can aim on, along with inconsistent hand positioning, shaking, slipping grip, etc. Luck with tapping imo is just accidentally tapping at the right / wrong moments on an OD11 3 mod map. The luck involved with tapping is also one dimensional, only depends on if you're early or late whereas aim is location in two dimensions and timing (early aim / late aim).
I also disagree that speed is unexplored, it's simply the harder path to the top, it's the skill that requires physical energy to power but aim, it's not much but how hard you hold your stylus.
I mean i think his scores are as nuts as people the pl they give, take mou ii kai for example. Its a 10* with dt and hes doing it with hd on top of that. Or take ascension 3mod, hes the only pass and hes fced it multiple times. It may not be a very played skill set but when you think about it maybe thats for a reason, no one tries to plays these maps because they're so hard.
What even is pp?
NO DONT TAKE THAT OUT OF CONTEXT
I see it like this:
His scores deserve to be as much as they are worth RIGHT NOW.
Even try doing his ascension score.
Nobody can do that.
Thats why its hard, thats why its worth as much as it is.
fax
0:10 An uppercase L would still look like "L". Maybe you meant a lowercase L?
I hate to be the "genetics" guy, but aetrna is so far ahead of the curve that it's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so fast. There are other players like RyuK, Aricin, Red_Pixel that have been practicing speed for just as long as aetrna has but they aren't nearly as fast. For example, Aricin continues to grow his stamina and finger control skills but his top speed has stayed pretty much the same for years. I'm pretty sure there is only one player who is faster than aetrna and that's zestiny, but his aim just isn't top player level. So in conclusion, even if more players started shifting their playstyle to speed, only a small amount would actually have the potential to set aetrna scores.
they havent been practicing pure speed, aetrnas only real very high level skill is speed while the players you mentioned besides aricin have crazy skills like aim or precision/finger contorl
I feel like there is an explanation for that. Those players you have mentioned peaked at 300 bpm but never bothered to push even further. Many didn't see the point and others wanted to prevent injury to happen. Aterna and Zestiny are the only two I've seen actually go out of their way to consistently practice 300bpm and then push even further for 330. The players you have mentioned have reached 300bpm but never bothered to make it consistent or push even further, generally they stay around 270-280 consistent. Informous was actually one he kept practicing it but eventually injured his hand
@@ibojofamily8472 wait, informous actually fucked up his arm?
@@yukinosu-269 don't take my word for it but when I went around asking as to why he quit. They did say he messed up his hand. I'm pretty sure he plays taiko now but who knows. Make sure to do research for yourself.
@@ibojofamily8472 alright
Dude is reinventing the meta
Literally no-one else can do what he can or even close. He deserves those scores on top... Everyone pushes a speciality and there are more people brilliant at aim (WC is the best overall), than Merami at speed.
I think we don't overestimate aeterna's scores and that claim about not being able to determine how difficult his plays are is false. That is because difficulty in games is directly linked to how many people can do something. So the fact that there is no other player that can do what aeterna does, doesn't mean we don't have any data as to how difficult it is. It means the opposite because the less people that can do something, the more difficult that thing is
Also it is mou ii kai, not mou Li kai
i think the main issue with aetrna is speed is legitimately all he has, every other skillset is lacking to some degree. his raw speed is unlike anything this community has ever seen, but when we have people like ryuk who can not only stream extremely high bpms but also the aim to play even more maps and set crazy scores no one else can, it kinda makes you wonder who is the better player in general, and if a player is "overrated" or "underrated". then again pp isn't a very good measurement of skill, it's more of a measure of how good you are at farming, and how often you can get scores in your top 100 plays, which doesn't exactly correlate to total skill.
have you seen his technical 3mod scores. he also has flow aim except he does so 100bpm higher than the hr players
You do realise that mou ii kai is a jump map, right? Lmao
I wouldn't say it's overated as long as there won't be proof that hundreds others players can achieve those scores like all of those aim 800 or 900 maps with all 50 DTHD (hr) leaderboards even if the super high speed streams are not that popular yet i wouldnt go as far as calling it overrated .
This guy has broken fingers man they are just so fast
oh my god its mou ii kai not mou li kai how did i miss this
I think we found once again someone who is just ahead of time. He will set those scores, people will look up to him as some kind of a "new generation god" and try to replicate his scores.
At some point there will be a stupid amount of players who actually did replicate these scores and then some new god will rise who can sightread insane hddthrfl 450bpm spaced stream scores.
This god will as well have the ability to play ezhr simultaneously so the approachrate changes every circle which will boost the gained amount of pp per score 3 times.
And the progression will go on until human kind reaches it's limits or whatever.
i think that his scores are deserved, since speed is something that people have been able to do for a few years now, and its something that he took around 5 years of practice from
2121: ah yes a 3000pp play from a 6 digit
of course he is why is this even a question
no one can stream like aetrna
"Players have the tendency to optimize the fun out of their games".
No matter what you do with the PP system, the fact that it exists and its metrics of how it ranks you can be known, people will always just try finding ways to break it.
Guys he said PP 🤣🤣🤣
ok
and preciously prerivously known as Xeltol. gotta put that out here
As someone who fundamentally doesn't understand osu! and doesn't know anything about it, that's a very good video title 😝
Inb4 when more players explore the speed skillset people find out that aetrna's plays are underrated instead of overrated lol
if no one can do the scores he can then I say let him farm the pp. He is an exceptional player with no match to his capabilities. HDDT has been nerfed multiple times as many players farmed only those but in this case it is just 1 player
Speed is not a niche thing. Many players play speed.
The essence of the video is arguing that because other people can't replicate aetrna's scores they should be nerfed.
No, the reason aetrna is so dominant is because he is a freak at the game, and has put insane workloads in, that does not give reason for a nerf.
Many players have dedicated themselves to speed and becoming freakish speed players, it's a pretty popular playstyle, it's just that aetrna is decades ahead.
The fact nobody is at his level shows how hard it is. If others could replicate his scores, then they shouldn't be worth as much as they are. They are worth so much for the exact reason that they are so difficult nobody but him can pull them off.
Wait so there are now attang-level CJ players now? Did not know, who are these people?
You’d be surprised how many people can surpass attang or who’ve surpassed attang in a long shot..Liusecy is one
Lol attang is still the jack king
Godmode video
Funny cuz even if you nerf his scores by -100 to -150 pp sidetracked day DT is still really busted if he manage to pull it off, like seriously 1800+pp???
C OMEGALUL MB OMEGALUL SC OMEGALUL RING
I think that the issue with your argument is that, to some extent, people have gotten quite close to his skill, particularly players like RyuK, Aricin, and Vaxei. RyuK with plays like Get This Right and Freefall VIP, Aricin with his Deceit/Violation scores, and Vaxei with huge consistency on Cycle Hit and the like. Obviously none of those players can completely match aetrna, but they're close enough that we do have people that can somewhat be compared. I think that his plays are pretty well weighted, especially with lokikaos's rog unlimitation play showing somewhat that aetrna's acc on that map was hard to replicate.
That aside, good points made everywhere else. Your videos always have good production value, even if I disagree with some of the arguments.
I dont think those 3 players you listed have a skillset similar to aetrna's. Aricin is pretty similar but it's not the exact same. RyuK and Vaxei are very proficient in the 250-270bpm area and have really good aim which lets them get scores like Freefall VIP and Cycle Hit (which are mostly aim maps rather than speed maps). Aricin is honestly an insane player since he's proficient at any bpm you throw at him, but he's mostly a player who sets 270-290bpm stamina plays (although his skillset far goes past that and he's one of the most underrated players the game has ever seen imo, even though he was/is pretty popular). Aetrna's skillset consists of 270-330bpm stamina streams/bursts with awkard aim. I think the closest player to him is MightyDoc, which you havent listed. MightyDoc's speed doesnt go as far as 330, but he also sets scores along the lines of aetrna in terms of high bpm stamina streams with awkward aim (Fake Promise HDDT, Nee William DT etc.)
but ryan and vaxei both have other skillsets that set them apart, mainly aim. whereas merami really doesn't match their levels of all around greatness In most skillsets besides speed, gayz is an example but he really doesn't put time into farm maps like merami does
@@Phos7x That's why I said to some extent. I mostly listed those players for somewhat similar scores. I will say that I have no idea how I forgot MightyDoc. He definitely has a lot of similarities and is probably the closest player. My main argument was that there's no one close to aetrna in skill with people trying to get close, so I think his scores are pretty validly weighted.
@@sirshylordy5538 man that shit is not similar imo, the difference is just way too big imo
He deserve the pp ... Can anyone replicate his play ? No ? Then he deserve the pp ...
Breaking the PP system? We had TV one tricks for that already before merami came and changed everything
m o u l e e k a i
I don't think he really has good genetics as he started out like any normal player not even being able to stream 180bpm. He worked very hard for his speed and I don't really think genetics played any role in it. I've also had the same thought for a long time about speed but it is something that is gradually being explored with players like Paraqeet appearing now. I believe speed will be the new meta in a couple of years with players moving on from 250 to 400bpm streams and jump maps as the skill cap for speed feels endless honestly.
Bruh he literally admitted himself that he was extremely talented
And obv no one spawns being able to stream 300 bpm but god damm merami got much more results in speed by putting in way less effort
@@thesaltyspoon7483 what do you mean "he admitted"? How could he know anything about his genes and their effect on his ability?
And to touch on your second reply, how do you know how much effort he has put in? How do you know he isnt just maximizing his gains in ability through optimal technique and training?
@@taggerung_ 1) he said on twitter lol
2) bruh do you really think he "works" 1000% harder than every literal top speed player. Do you even play osu
@@thesaltyspoon7483 you either misunderstood or are purposefully ignoring my points
fun fact: aetrna used to be a roblox obbyist and was the singular best
I dont think hes breaking it nessacarily. There have been speed specialists for years and aterna is insane. Some of these plays hes done if that technique video didnt exist and if they were done by ANYONE else it would literally be instantly labelled blatant cheating. When he did mou ii kai people weren't surprised that he could hit the streams. People were surprised he almost hit the jumps because historically speed specialists have fucking terrible aim compared to others.
The speed aspect of merami though is insane. I genuinely do not think someone else will ever match it. He is a true enigma if you ask me and hes only pushing further also. Hes been uploading some shit here and there of him trying to push fucking 360.
I don't think it's breaking the system if he is literally unmatched in what he does right now.
Let him have his huge pp number right now because his scores are way ahead of their time, if in the future we do get more players who can replicate what he does then we can always change the system then, but right now his scores are fairly deserving of the pp they give, especially when compared to every other player.
its mou ii kai with an uppercase i, Mou Ii kai
For a sec I thought the title said something else
Major Fracture Detected
That *would* hurt