The amount of times he had to state his title, his certificates, credentials, his accomplishments speak volumes. Evolution happens when people stop following the person in front of them. Evolution happens when people ask uncomfortable questions. Great minds think (differently). This old way of doing things does not align with the consciousness that many are waking up to. Here’s to unconditional love. Not conditional love. Thank you Kam.
"No, no, no!" is not an intellectual rebuttal. Tony needs to put his emotions aside and debate like a mature adult. Kam on the other hand did an amazing job remaining respectful, composed and rational. Thank you Kam for brining this knowledge forward, it is so very important.
A mature adult? lol Kam interrupted countless times (as a child would) when Tony sat there silent trying to be respectful and then when he couldn’t take it anymore did end up replying like that.
@@Mycurvystory From my recollection, the only times Kam interrupted was to stop Tony from lying about him. If Tony was respectful he wouldn't have tried to tell lies about Kam.
Im sorry but Tony really disappointed me. As a Christian who was in the middle ready to listen to both openly all the animosity was unwarranted. Tony sounded like a college professor that can’t stand being questioned. And he’s saying “this is so…” and not explaining anything. Not Christ like. If he thinks Kam isn’t right this is not how you bring in people to get curious about Jesus.
Jesus wasn't vegan because it didn't exist, it's nowhere in the Bible to even be vegetarian... Even the most disinterested teenager in a Christian nation knows this...
Tony raised his voice and grew frustrated with the lack of clear responses from Kam. The arguements presented in Christspiracy are from Gnostic sources, so for a Christian who holds to traditional Christianity (that would be Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians), they are invalid. I'm a Christian and I don't eat meat, but Christspiracy fails at its point. Sorry. Jesus ate fish.
Wow I’m so impressed by Kam, how professionally he discusses, how well he knows his facts and the scriptures, how calm he stays and how well he articulates his wisdom. What a deep and interesting debate, thank you Ellen 🫶🏼
The difference between someone who does their own independent research vs someone who is a doctorate is often times a piece of paper. Attaching an ego to your educational credentials is a sign of ignorance.
I am going to be charitable and suggest he is referring to the amount of research hours and deep reflection necessary to earn a doctoral degree....? But certainly his attitude was not giving anyone that impression... very unchristlike imo
It’s unfortunate that someone who has lost his composure and threw a tantrum almost cursing at the end instead of responding to a final question, gets invited for a follow up. Kam was the one who was not allowed to say his thought last. Interesting decision on behalf of the host.
I think she was trying to extend an olive branch. Her platform is for the vegan minded, and I saw the decision to invite Tony back as a way of trying to make it a comfortable space for those that don’t share the vegan/plant based mindset. I don’t think Tony presented himself well honestly and agree that his composure could’ve been better, but I can understand Ellen’s decision to invite him back.
If one sat through this 3+ hour debate, one should’ve felt that it didn’t feel right ending it on that note. As the host, I think Ellen made the amazing choice by bringing Tony back for a couple mins to have the space to respond. Ellen does a pretty good job staying unbiased and her doing this proves that. Kam spoke more during the entire debate, and also interrupted much more. I think they both had interesting perspectives and I’m glad it felt a little more even at the end.
@@gracejohnston977 maybe if you're going to be doing debates and public speaking you should get some coaching in how to keep your cool. Or just sit down and let the mature adults handle it.
The hunter is a scary individual to be living among others! His views are psychopathic, he didn’t even show any empathy towards Kam opening up about his brother. He ignored this and he victimised himself even though he is the killer Kam was absolutely incredible and so so grateful to kam and all he does, you can see what a kind heart he has and you feel that through the screen. Choose kindness and don’t live like the hunter guy who chooses to live in the most brutal and evil way. It’s so unfair people like him get to walk around free whilst murdering innocent beings.
Kam did an amazing job thoroughly investigating the Bible. I think resorting to the fact that someone has a “phD” in a subject does not always mean they are experts, rather their teachings tend to imitate a game of telephone passed on by others who were taught the same and they end up very closed-minded and self assured that they have learned the truth. I’m speaking from my own experience as a medical doctor. I have gone through so much training and have only done plant based research on my own and have uncovered significant truths that aren’t taught to us in school and residency- and actually we end up being taught the opposite. It’s very frightening. I hope one day “theologians” will be brave enough to question their teachings and go vegan like Jesus was.
Ordained Presbyterian minister here. Personally speaking, I think veganism is great. It’s a fabulous cause. I think we can all agree that the meat manufacturing complex is objectively horrible, and there are thousands of reasons to practice veganism from a moral, ethical and health perspective. Having said all that, I don’t think spending three hours on RUclips debating whether this conversation existed in the Middle East back two thousand years ago is especially helpful or productive to the cause. It doesn't change whether veganism is a good thing to do. I think Tony Jones is as obnoxious as the day is long. His delivery may not have been as calm and composed as Kam's, but the substance of his arguments is correct. Kam obviously has done a lot of independent research, and he's clearly a very smart young man. However, he is also heavily practicing what Biblical scholarship refers to as "inconsistent hermeneutics." For example, Tony Jones brought up the book of Acts where Peter has a dream of a sheet being lowered from heaven with all these non-kosher animals. And he’s commanded to eat them. His point being, “God literally commands him to eat meat.” Kam's response to this passage is to take a hyper-literal reading. “Actually, it’s a dream, so it’s meaningless,” “Was it really even the Lord? The text just says it was a voice,” "Peter calls it Lord, but can we trust him?,” etc. But then when Tony takes that same hyper-literal approach to John 21 ("Jesus ate fish, case closed"), Kam suddenly accuses him of being TOO literal. All of a sudden, the rules he set earlier go out the window so that can pull out some numerology theory around Pythagoras to wave the whole thing away and say, "Well, THIS passage counts, but THAT one doesn't." This is a very inconsistent hermeneutic and would get Kam laughed out of any serious Biblical scholarship circles. It may make for an interesting movie like "The Da Vinci Code," but it's not going to convince anybody who takes this stuff seriously. I was also pretty shocked that neither of these men brought up that Jews eat lamb at Passover. It's the central dish of the Seder meal. Surely we're not suggesting that Jesus Christ (a devout Jew) walked into the Temple, year after year, and refused to participate in the Passover meal. That would have been truly scandalous and nearly impossible to imagine that nobody bothered to write that down. Again, none of that has anything to do with whether Christians should be vegan. I think there are a thousand different reasons why they should be. But this isn't one of them.
Often those SELF educated, are more inspired and motivated to dig just a little deeper, think for themselves, connect the dots and dispel the doubts. 💜
The meat eaters won and in medicine, Big Pharma won. Read the Flexner report, commissioned by John D Rockefeller Sr, who wanted Drugs to be used, because Big Oil is an ingredient in Big Pharma drugs.
Dang. Tony’s behaviour was quite shameful. He actually became a bit emotionally manipulative towards the end. Kam was wonderful, insightful and kind. Props to him.
...and bullying, haughty, just unprofessional in general and certainly not the way an 'elder' of the church is instructed to gently lead the young men. Truly shameful
Tony was really hard to sit through. He was incredibly condescending and smug, and started off having to clarify his credentials. Not a good start to the discussion. I wish the time he spent on his PHD was time also spent learning to speak kindly and maturely, or even the least bit respectful. I’d expect having a discussion about the Lord would be something that sparks joy and wonder; not annoyance and hostility. Also; how can he even sit there and claim animals don’t have a first person experience/knowledge of their existence??? Zoologists around the globe have dedicated their LIVES to advancing our understanding of animals; as their voice isn’t easily understood by certain people. That is a complete slap in the face to all of the zoologists and animal researchers who have put in so much heart and soul and time and money into the research and understanding of animals. They have proved time and a time again that they are sentient, conscious beings with feelings, just as we are. I cannot sit here and listen to this man when he says things like this so ignorantly.
As a Christian listening to 2 hours of Gnostic rhetoric and taking the word out of context and CONSTANTLY being interrupted would and should be frustrating and and annoying. The other dude was MUCH harder to sit through the way he constantly spoke in circles and never answered directly - that conversation would be my absolute nightmare and Tony did great imo haha
I agree honestly, even though I agreed with more of Tony’s points. For clarity’s sake, I am plant based but have been walking through the ethics of this lifestyle for almost a year now and I was looking forward to this debate. Like I said, I agreed more with Tony overall still despite my personal lifestyle choice, but he was incredibly hard to listen to because of his posture throughout this conversation. I think he did a disservice for himself and his pov, and I wish he could’ve come into this conversation less defensive and more open to having a discussion. I still appreciated the willingness on both sides to come on, but I do think Kam’s confidence in his perspective allowed him to not be too defensive in his responses to Tony. I’ll be watching Christpiracy soon though and I do appreciate both sides for coming on and presenting their positions for the audience.
I see Kam embodying the virtues of Christ - humility, patience, forgiveness, respect, pursuit of truth and I see Tony embodying the characteristics of arrogance, self righteousness, anger, aggression, and projection. Knowing little about the Christian texts/historical records they are discussing it is much easier for me to give Kam the benefit of the doubt than Tony. It is difficult for me to listen to Tony while when Kam speaks I want to hear more. If there is truth in Tony's words it is lost behind his poor character.
How is Kam being kind and compassionate when he dodges questions like politicians put on the spot? Example: Tony- "Why would Jesus tell the fisherman to go catch fish if he was an animal liberator?" Kam- "That's a good question. Pythagoras 500 years earlier.....number 153 is sacred.......Vesicus Pisces..... correlates with the number 254......... And y'all wonder why Tony was losing his temper.
@@satanslayer9320 In your comment you've shifted the goal post, put words in my mouth, cherry picked, taken out of context, misrepresented Tony's temper, and generally engaged in an aggressive manner. Your dishonesty combined with your aggression demonstrates you did not come in good faith and consequentially it is not possible to have a positive, honest, productive and truth seeking engagement with you. Peace and Grace.
Isaiah 66:3 (ESV) :"He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck [...] These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
Great -- and here's another in Isaiah where God pronounces animal sacrifice as evil - Isaiah 1-11 - “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? I delight not in the blood of bullocks, lambs or goats. And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes. I will not hear, because your hands are full of blood. Wash yourself, purge yourselves; leave off the EVIL of these doings."
Isaiah 66:3 is a verse from the Book of Isaiah in the Old Testament of the Bible. This chapter deals with themes of judgment, worship, and the behavior of people in relation to God's commands. Here is the full verse: "But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a person, and whoever offers a lamb is like one who breaks a dog’s neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig’s blood, and whoever burns memorial incense is like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and they delight in their abominations;" This criticizes the empty and hypocritical religious practices of the people. It contrasts outward religious rituals with the genuine faith and obedience God desires. The verse makes several comparisons, each showing how certain sacrifices, when made insincerely or hypocritically, are as detestable as committing various abhorrent acts: - **Sacrificing a bull** is likened to killing a person. - **Offering a lamb** is compared to breaking a dog's neck. - **Making a grain offering** is equated to presenting pig’s blood (unclean in Jewish law). - **Burning incense** is likened to worshiping an idol. The message is that God values genuine devotion and righteousness over mere ritualistic practices. The people's religious actions are rendered meaningless because they are carried out without true repentance or faith, and they delight in practices that are abominable to God. This verse emphasizes the importance of sincerity in worship and adherence to God's ways over superficial religious observance.
Ah, an ellipsis. Always a red flag when it comes to quoting scripture. If your conviction doesn't allow you to eat meat, that is absolutely your right, however, the bible is not about eating meat or not eating meat. It is about broken people needing to be restored to God and cleansed of their sin. The cleansing of our sin is only possible though the willingly sacrificed blood of Christ. No animal sacrifice will cleanse us just as eating or not eating, killing it not killing animals today will not cleanse us. Trust in Jesus, not veganism!
@@jannad3406 In fact, not eating animals or their products, hence not killing them or abusing them, will cleanse us. As study after study shows, and countless personal recovery stories relate, avoiding animals and their byproducts cleanses first our blood, then the organs and tissues of the body have a chance to clean up and recuperate. And as the body and mind are closely interrelated, the mind then has a chance to release its burdens toward a more liberated state. Many many people have reported this for many many years. And by all means - trust in Jesus, or any exemplar of peace (and love and kindness)!
You conveniently left out the next two sentences. "Giving a grain offering as if it were swines blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol" In full context, your cherry picked scripture discusses intentionally of an action, and nothing to do with animal liberation.
"I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and defiled my land and made my inheritance detestable."Jeremiah 2:7 (NIV)
Bruh my suspicions are that Jesus just refilled the source of water they over fished with fish again to restore their eco system and their they go the hunter s throwing their nets but not cause Jesus told them 😂
Sure, I get it, someone challenging your beliefs can be upsetting. But Tony’s reactions were just childish. He needlessly made the whole conversation tense. He didn’t act in the spirit of a scholar. He put forth his little PhD-fueled ego. It’s a debate. You can’t win your way by being impatient or by means of sounding aggressive. It just betrays your own weakness and lacks of confidence in your stance.
I don’t understand how a person needs to kill to get through a difficult time. Like, what in the world is comforting about killing? Again, this is a messed up, deranged heart and mind.
Oh my goodness!!!!!! I found the Tony guy absolutely 💯 APPALLING. He was condescending, arrogant, hot-headed, emotionally explosive. I am disappointed in the host for not calming Tomy down. It was ridiculous. I have seen many debates on lots of subjects plant based but wow, this guy was accusatory, belittling and basically more emotionally involved he can justify eating meat, fish, dairy, and eggs. It's sad he was so arrogant. I found Kam very compassionate, calm and respectful, and complete in contrast to Tony. I suspect Tomy was like this because if Kam is right that scripture has been meddled with, scrolls destroyed, then HUMANITY has a MASSIVE PROBLEM ,and Tomy knows it!
The hunter was offended by his own words. He KNOWS that killing innocent animals is wrong, otherwise he’d be comfortable hearing HIS OWN WORDS read back to him
I know his reaction to an excerpt of his own book being read to him in which he gave permission to do so and then being offended by his own words…a complete ego response and the ego never makes sense.
That ending 🤣. Allowing Tony to speak one more time at the end - it's just a silly admission of his defeat. You allowed him to speak like this just because he was throwing a tantrum and being aggressive and nasty. Kam wins by his sheer character. His patience and attentiveness is what we should all seek to emulate.
Immense gratitude for you opening the space for healthy dialogue, and hosting a conversation suppressed for millennia. For 2,000 years, this debate has been avoided, though it was monumental and widespread in the early church-led by Jesus’ brother and the original movement. It’s time we address it. Stay tuned for the worldwide digital release of @christspiracy and join the revelation. 🙏🏼
@@satanslayer9320 omg, so much stoopid. B12 is something that microbes create, and you have trillions of them in your body. Get your facts straight dude!
@@satanslayer9320 B12 is found everywhere, but soils are depleted by intensive farming. The animals you eat are serially injected with b12. END OF THE STORY.
I'm not religious, but Kam embodies compassion and the defence/protection of those who suffer and are defenseless- isn't that what the Christian religion preaches? This resonates with me. Hunters look for reasons to make their choice ethical, and this guy is no exception. He comes across as arrogant, angry and condescending. I only care that, a) animals suffer, feel joy, pain and many other emotions, have connections to other beings, and a desire to feel safe and live, and b) I would never want to inflict deliberate suffering upon an animal, either by doing it myself, or paying for it. Simple.
Doesn’t matter which person acted which way, all that matters is what the Bible teaches, and what is true. Kam, and veganism can not stand on truth. The Bible,doesn’t support that philosophy.
As a non-Christian, what I'm hearing is that many details in the Bible are not clear or interpretable in a literal sense. So maybe instead of "answering questions" about the text with speculation, we should actually use our own brains and moral intuitions (which in the Christian worldview, God gave to us as a reflection of his own image) to understand how to move forward. And judging by how children often react when they learn that the food they're being fed is actually the body parts of slaughtered animals who are not fundamentally different from their companion animals, I think human moral intuition naturally leans pretty heavily towards adopting animals into the sphere of moral consideration.
Interesting you know some people don't live off groccery stories and there own land right, sounds like privileged people would love to say this. Other countries that aren't westernized would beg to differ
@@GODSloveleeDAUGHTER Perhaps that's why the bible (and the old testament in particular) did not explicitly condemn eating animals, and also provided guidelines for how to keep (human) slaves. In at least one Christian viewpoint, the brutality of the old testament is a reflection of the cultures God was speaking to, and not a complete and perfect description of His ultimate will (would such a description even be possible?). If God had explicitly condemned slavery, wartime pillaging/rape/murder/etc., and exploitation of animals, the prophets who transmitted the message probably would have been written off as idealistic and naive, and maybe rightly so given the conditions of the world at the time. The definition that is often cited for veganism incorporates the caveat "as far as is practicable and possible". For most people in the modern world, it is practicable to not exploit, kill, or eat animals (or pay someone else to do so). Do you live in a developed nation?
I think this is an excellent point. One of the issues is that anytime someone asks, “Did Jesus say/do (fill in the blank),” there are really two versions of that question. The first is “Did the BIBLICAL Jesus say/do any of these things?” The second is “Did the HISTORICAL Jesus say/do any of these things?” These are two very different questions, and depending on which one is of primary interest to you, the internal logic required is going to be completely different. For example, if the question is “Was the historical Jesus a vegetarian?” the answer to that question (in my judgment) is “It’s possible (albeit unlikely)." There’s almost vanishingly little that we know for sure about the historical Jesus that is contemporaneous and reliable. It’s possible he was vegan. It’s also possible he ran around in an elephant costume saying the Pledge of Allegiance each day. We just don’t know. If the historical Jesus bore even a passing resemblance to what's portrayed in the Gospels, then I think it's very likely that, at the very least, he did things like attend Passover, eat lamb as part of the Seder meal, etc. because that's what the vast majority of Jews did back then. But there's almost nothing reliable and contemporaneous about his life that historians will accept as surefire fact. The best accounts we have are the Gospels, and they were written well after the fact. If the question is “Did the Biblical Jesus eat things like fish, lamb, etc.” the answer to that is “Yes." I don’t think it’s even a question. One of the most questionable tactics of people like Kam Waters, Dan Brown, etc. and others like them is pretending like certain passages are authoritative when it suits them and writing others off as non-authoritative when they don't, (depending what best serves their agenda).
@@janascheibel9780 Yes. This is the heart of Tony's anger. His identity is being directly challenged and questioned. Few things in human psychology are we so emotionally tried to and defensive of.
@@cv7357 Naw it’s just demonic possession. Anyone who consumes the blood & flesh of the innocent are going to hell. Thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill. Repent & believe in the gospel.
As a life-long Christian I can absolutely say, hands down, that Christspiracy is the most important film of our time. A life and history-transformer. The film reveals shocking truths that nobody expected-not even me. The essence of Christianity is love and mercy, yet many (including my past self) have forgotten “the way” or worse, choose to ignore it. It’s a must-see film with an open mind, but most importantly, an open heart. Knowledge is Power! “Then Jesus said, ‘He who has ears to hear, let him hear.’”-Matthew 11:15
@@satanslayer9320 B12 is found everywhere, but soils are depleted by intensive farming. The animals you eat are serially injected with b12. END OF THE STORY.
@@satanslayer9320B12 is present everywhere, but the earth is depleted of nutrients due to intensive farming. The animals you eat receive B12 supplements.
I just want to share… I went vegan a little over two and a half years. Right away I started to feel better. The more I have cleansed my body the more I have experienced healing in my body. I’m talking over 30 years of chronic pain leaving my body. Makes perfect sense to me that God never wanted us harming and killing animals. I am now a frugivor and the truth of how nature was created as well as our bodies in infinite wisdom. The truth makes sense. “Let everything that has life praise the Lord”
Fellow veggie here 👋 going on 14 years. For the entirety of those 14 years, I’ve been challenged about my stance and had the Bible used as a weapon against my views. I have been insufficiently equipped to defend my lifestyle until today as I absorb the facts shared in this video. Not only does it feel validating to what the Holy Spirit has prompted in my heart so long ago, but now I can encourage others with my confidence in what scripture says. Grateful for this content!!
Genesis 1:29 (NIV) - "Then God said, 'I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.'"
Genesis 1:29 talks how Initially, God gave humans a plant-based diet, consisting of seed-bearing plants and fruits. However, after the Flood things have changed: Genesis 9:3: After the flood, God expands the dietary options for humanity. God tells Noah and his sons: “Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.” This verse marks a significant change, where God explicitly permits the consumption of animals. Reasons for the Change: Post-Flood Environment: The flood drastically altered the earth’s environment, and this may have impacted the availability of plant food sources. Allowing the consumption of animals ensured that humans had sufficient nutrition. Human Condition: After the fall (Genesis 3), the world became more challenging, and human needs and circumstances changed. The inclusion of animals in the diet may have been a concession to these new conditions. Divine Permission: God explicitly permits the eating of animals, which indicates a divinely sanctioned expansion of dietary options. Dietary Laws: Levitical Laws: In the Mosaic Law, specific dietary laws were given to the Israelites (Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14), outlining which animals were clean and could be eaten and which were unclean and should not be consumed. These laws were part of the covenant with Israel and served religious, health, and identity purposes. People eat animals today based on a combination of biblical permissions, cultural practices, and individual choices. While the initial diet in Genesis was plant-based, later biblical texts reflect a broader view that includes the consumption of animals. The Bible provides a framework where dietary practices can evolve based on divine guidance and changing human needs.
@@satanslayer9320 Genesis 9:4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal." Don't kill basically. Eat dogs dead of old age or accidently hit by a car. Don't pay to kill animals. They give their accounting of you to God.
@@leviahimsa I see you still quote mining in vain. You do realize animals are bled out before they are eaten? Right? The red juicy stuff that comes out of the meat when cooking is a protein, not blood. If God intended man not to eat meat, he wouldn't have created man to be dependent on B12.
Kam, love that part at the end where you correlate the pain that your mother felt when she lost her son (your brother) and the pain of the deer/dairy cows having their children taken away and killed. Super powerful and so true. Tony was offended by this because he realized he’s the one separating and killing families. Honestly, great work holding him on that. He needs to know the pain and suffering he causes.
Cows aren’t human. They don’t have “children.” Child is a human term. You’re equating humans to animals, animal suffering to human suffering, and if that’s the case, you’d have a difficult time between saving a calf and a human child.
@@ArmindaHeartI’m sorry, are you saying that animals don’t give birth and don’t care for their young? That’s incredibly ignorant if you think that and you should learn more about animals lives. Cows are very maternal, they care and love their children, and when a farmer takes their baby away in the dairy industry, they cry and scream for days or weeks. Also I never equated humans to animals, I was just appreciating kams logical comparison between the two actions.
@@SweetPotatoTyler once again, you are humanizing animals. Cows don’t have “babies,” they have calves. Of course animals care for their young-otherwise, life wouldn’t exist at all-but a cow doesn’t need therapy after their offspring is killed or taken. It doesn’t seek revenge. It doesn’t jump off a cliff from sadness. Animals have instincts for survival, and that includes their offspring. God made humans (not animals) in his image. Do I think humans needlessly harming animals beyond a quick death is ok? Of course not. Those cows you feel are so pure and sweet will stomp their own young into oblivion, sometimes because they’re weak and sometimes because the female is inexperienced. Animals in the wild will happily kill each other and their prey and eat their catch while still alive. Do they ever regret their decisions? Absolutely not. Do they feel pain? Absolutely! Pain is necessary for survival. I fully understand all animals feel pain and can therefore suffer, which is why I fully support sustainable and humane farming, both of animals and plants. Because the vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds you purchase and consume come from farms that practice pest control and unsustainable farming, like destroying soil and animals and their habitats; therefore you also partake in the suffering of animals and our environment. I pray farming practices change and we can live peacefully on our planet. I try my best to grow and store lots of vegetables and fruits from my garden and have chickens too - I’m lucky enough to live in an ideal growing environment. I have had to resort to killing insects and pests when populations are out of control (my cat helps with rodents) and my chickens occasionally die from disease and predators. It’s simply how nature goes. I feel vegans are so out of touch with nature (most live in the comfort and convenience of a city) that they don’t understand how nature works.
@@ArmindaHeart following that line of humans farming, then leaving calves with their mother until they wean is humane. Today’s modern dairy farming is not. Taking calves straight after birth and the mother ‘cries’ out for the calf and it’s quite haunting, hits you in the human heart in a primal way IMO speaks to the unnatural sequence . There is to a natural instinct and connection for protection of her offspring. Stress hormones are released and then we drink their milk. Then the mother is artificially inseminated to do the whole thing again. Halving their life expectancy. Personally I see modern dairy crueler to the cows then the beef farming in my country. Australia., our cattle are grazed not feedlots like USA. There is one dairy supplier that does naturally wean calf that I am aware of, this is the one I recommend to clients who want dairy (I’m a nutritionist)to best support humane farming in this messed up world.
@ArmindaHeart I feel like that argument isn't valid. I know people who would save their pet instead of a stranger in dire situations. No particular comment on it so much as that it is contextual for most people. What are your thoughts?
Wow! The cognitive dissonance is intense with Tony. The fact that he keeps saying, "you are wrong!" He seems to think that he is the only one who knows things. My question is why would you fight for the "right" to hurt other creations. He also is about following the majority, "because the majority does it, it must be right."
@@RickyVis We understand, and we’re not perfect. It's similar to driving your car to work every day, knowing that somewhere along the way there might be an accident. Your intention is never to harm anyone, but inevitably, something could happen. That doesn't mean we should stop driving or that our goal is to cause harm. The world isn't perfect, but as we evolve, we can work to minimize collateral damage. Additionally, even though a vegetarian might directly consume more plants than a non-vegetarian, the latter consumes more plants indirectly. This is because the animals they eat were raised on a diet primarily made up of crops, such as grains and soy, which require large amounts of plant production. In fact, non-vegetarian diets demand more land for cultivation, which results in more plants being grown, and therefore, a greater impact on wildlife habitats. This, combined with the animals killed directly for food, means that the environmental toll of non-vegetarian diets it's literally greater than that of vegetarian ones.
He the hunter , forgot that kam also hunted and also fished... All kam was trying to say is that it is unnecessary to kill animals for food today and that we can expand our circle of compassion.
@@erickgreen2361 Well maybe some hunters, in some kind of ways. But it is not a question between hunting or factory farming. It is for, or against, ending their lifes to begin with. It is unnecessary as another person also wrote, which makes me ask, where is the compassion in continueing to hunt?
@@carothehonestpeanut Animals products are needed for a natural lifestyle, by that I mean a life not completely dependent lab grown products and living like our ancestors did. There is also the health burden of doing more biosynthesis than necessary and dealing with plant toxins that aim to shut down the metabolism like phytic acid in beans and goitrogens in vegetables....
I don’t know that I could’ve kept my composure as well as Kam! The amount of times that man condescended to him, called him “friend” in a placating manner, twisted his words, it was hard to watch at times!
3:02:28 Tony is making two false equivalencies: 1. There is a difference between accepting the fact you will eventually die and using this as a rationalization to prematurely take another being’s life. 2. Vegans accept the fact that part of living in the modern world will entail benefitting from processes that involve incidental death to humans as well as animals (e.g. vehicles collisions, industrial accidents, crop farming, etc). These tragedies are not the same as, nor do they justify participation in, lethal actions that intentionally exploit another being, such as killing an animal or their offspring to steal their flesh. Simply put, we must not use any being for ends for which they do not share, even if we cannot avoid all incidental harm our lives may cause others.
2:08:00 This is where it's starts to get good. Tony starts to show his human superiority complex. "we're better", "they're submoral", "they're not like us", "we're smarter".
@@satanslayer9320Yeah, this is logic people have used to justify things like slavery, sexism, racism, etc. and he’s using it to justify killing animals. He’s saying that because we have different genetics (even they have the ability to think, feel, and suffer in a similar ways to us) that it’s ok to kill them. Hitler used this same logic against the Jews.
I so appreciate the film and co-director Kam couldn't be more knowledgeable about every jot and tittle of the bible. Bravo. Honored to be part of this animal liberation movement with scholars, film makers and activists such as Kam.
Honestly, that was a hard watch at times. That guy is totally emotional, super offended, and unprofessional. When you are having a debate, keep it clean. You completely harm your potential audience when you are unable to be calm, cool and collected. I think it was pretty apparent who acts more like Yashua
It's hard to have your beliefs questioned, especially when you've believed them for so long and have invested so much in them. They become your identity and so I think Tony's defensiveness was just that he felt his identity was being questioned. I don't think Kam is trying to attack Tony or anyone, at least it didn't come across that way in this dialogue. But I think he is just asking people to consider that there is more to the story than what's on the surface. If you aren't open to digging into your beliefs, I wonder just what you are afraid of?
@@alexanderTheVeganabsolutely the level of grotesque graphic detail he goes into even mentioning the animal is female multiple times is very disturbing I would not want children getting their hands on a book like that or anyone that is mentally vulnerable.
A hunter is killer, a murderer, he has knowledge, but no compassion, no mercy no Christ love. Jesus is life, love mercy but in this hunter s heart only hate and food. So sad so many Christians like this hunter. God s kingdom is peace love righteousnes joy. You , Christians, bring God's kingdom down to this earth now. " May your kingdom come, may your will be done as it is in heaven "
@@Sportyspice7 Only one book of the bible ever mentions it, and it does not apply to modern Christians, or anyone else alive in the world today. But fascists have no time for nuance.
I think he was part of the "emergent church", I don't know what he is now...he also talks about accepting his mortality whereas the Bible talks about eternal life through Christ.
Even though I don't share these same spiritual beliefs I did really appreciate hearing both sides. So basically what I've learned is that the Christian bible started off/ began with no slaughtering of animals, and then later on slaughtering of animals was a thing these people got involved in doing for whatever reason. So my conclusion is that there's a choice. A choice to kill and take life, or a choice to be vegan and let live. Animals are sentient beings and feel pain, so the preferred moral choice would have to be let the animals live and go vegan.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. It's one of the Beatitudes. Your physical body witnesses all the animals that you eat by chronic disease. It is actually amazing to watch the overcoming of these same diseases when people choose to have mercy on the animals. It seems to be a true concept. You are right that it is a choice.
Thank you for debating with this man and showing all who watched the plain and simple truth. Hands down Kam made more sense, never angered or offended as was the case with the Reverend. Thank you for being so knowledgeable and working so hard for the animals. The ending was very powerful. ❤
Hunter says the way he butchers animals has put him in touch with his food. Okay. But not in touch with the actual sentient beings who just wanted to live.
He said it was a spiritual experience for him. I wonder how much of a spiritual experience it was for the deer? It all just seems so one-sided and self-serving.
It is painful to listen to Tony talk... but my pain in listening to his blasphemy is in no way in comparison to the pain and suffering of the victims of his unnecessary murder of dogs, cats, pigs, deer, horses, cows, etc... This is the power of the devil... he can parade around in the shoes of a pastor and corrupt the minds and souls of people. That is why we should all just stop and think and listen to our heart. When we stop and listen to our heart, we are not killing animals. So extend that to your everyday life.
I am so sick of the WHINING, mistemper and hostility of a meat eater defending his position of eating a sentient being. Over 2000 years later we are arguing ethics delineated in a politically tampered with text of over 2000 years ago.
Yes, totally tampered with to cover up the Church's attitude towards animals and their lucrative sacrifice business, and the flesh-eaters who edited it!
This is a time of revelation and truth. Kam is bringing so much wisdom. We can and should question anything and anyone. No one was there to witness any of this. We blindly believe what has been passed on but it’s about to change big time. Nevertheless great discussion.
This Ph.D. lost the debate because he was too emotional and confrontational. He had a narrative that he wanted to uphold and no amount of common sense explanations or hidden truths could make his hardened heart show any compassion and understanding for what Jesus' message truly means. Great job Kam. You have to seek ye the truth and you shall find it. Seeking is asking questions.
Also, if Jesus was fully mortal man and didn't know that the moon orbited the Earth, then Jesus also suffered the same ignorance as the people of the time and basically thought that fish were vegetables.
I'm so happy Kam actually read the book at the end and hit the spot. Tony's spiritual connection to the killed/killing animals is nothing but his own unexpressed anger and grief about what happened in his personal life. Nothing spiritual about it but definitely delusional and big denial. Grief your pain away Tony and leave the animals alone, time to evolve. Even a child can answer this simple question - how would Jesus kill an animal.... Your heart became a heart of stone.
Thank you Ellen for this debate. I do not eat animals and am not a believer and it was so interesting to hear both sides. I have so much respect for both of them for being vulnerable coming onto your show. People will surely judge one way or another. I don’t want to say anything negative in here but I sure am very happy that I don’t personally eat animals and wouldn’t eat them regardless of what the bible says. My heart simply cannot take the idea of sensual being being slaughtered against their will, being so so scared just for me to eat it when it’s absolutely unnecessary in the 21st century. I am definitely not putting animals below humans.
If Tomy is a man of God, i am absolutely flabbergasted!!!! I wouldn't join his congregation ever whether im vegan or non vegan. Bloody hell, cross him, think differently, and get the sharpness of tongue. Righto Tony. You need to go back to bible school to learn kindnesses, humility, and dare i say it PATIENCE.
@TheChadXperience909 Gosh!! That doesn't bode well. I am very glad I am studying the RCIA to become Catholic next Easter 2025. I am not saying the Catholic church I'd perfect, but it is for me, authentic in its teaching, and even in Catholicism, they have to sort out the issue of eating meat.
Well i talked to Kam about it after the episode, and since Tony was upset at the end and didn’t get to share his thoughts fully on why, we both thought it was a good idea. ❤️
bottom line, Jesus was kind and its not kind to kill. any argument against compassion is sadistic. Tony already said that he does not take the bible as faultless.... the lying pen of the scribes
What about all the former vegans that developed eating disorders, lifelong health issues, starvation, etc… and before the “they weren’t doing it right” crowd comes along, these were people who were “doing it right”, and in the end decided to be kind to their own bodies and nourish them with the diet of our ancestors. I think it’s important to look at it that way as well. It veganism works for you, that’s great! But if it doesn’t, it isn’t ethically wrong to kill animals for food. When religions vegans shove their ideology down peoples throat as “gospel” that’s where I have a problem. At that point it has become an idol. And it’s causing people who cannot tolerate this diet and lifestyle to stumble.
@@jjgems5909I am a 65 year old “vegan” that is perfectly healthy….like on no medications!!! Whole food plant based is the way to be spiritually and physically healthy!! 🙏🕊
@@jjgems5909 I've been vegan (whole food, no oil) for almost 14 years and it's easy. There are plenty of sick necrovores as well. How do you know they were doing it right?
Christspiracy made me just more in love with our G-d. As Kam, I also transitioned to veganism during the Daniel Fast a few years ago. The debate; Tony and his facial expressions, constantly interrupting and talking down on Kam just shows how steadfast people will believe culture rather than the spoken Word of G-d. Kameron, may G-ds face shine on you, you are appointed by Him, we love you and value you. You are someone I will proudly call brother. Love from South Africa
I am a Christian, you can tell them by their fruit, what is very clear here in this debate is something beyond words, beyond interpretation of text, it’s their fruit, one, the meat eater/ hunter has an aggressiveness, he is full of pride, ie I went to Yale, I have an education, I am thus better, no heart, no fruit, no kindness shines from within, trying to justify a moral stance that aligns with evil, and selfishness, the other the vegan, has a light, has the fruit, has the understanding, has traveled not just read books in a class, but truely understand the heart, God bless them both and I pray God gives them both a deeper insight, thank you for sharing this pod cast Ellen
Had the pleasure of seeing an early cut of this film for a "friends and family screening" then getting to see the final cut at the LA Red Carpet Premiere was an HONOR! Kip and Kam and team have done a powerful job!
Tony: crop deaths tho, intelligence tho, anthropocentricism, human supremacy, plants have feelings, but people have always done it, the majority rules, might makes right, pleasure justifies an action and so on.
A PHD doesn’t mean you know everything. Just means you have a vast knowledge in a certain field. And as we know fields are always expanding and changing.
How many Dr.s, Dentist, etc, etc say the same thing and still know very little about the body, healing, health. You are right a PHD just means you are regurgitating the knowledge you gained from the institution that fed that knowledge to you.
@@keelyarychuk5955 yeah. That’s why I like to read up and experiment with herbs and on myself. That’s how you truly learn. Use some books to guide you to knowledge and implement what you have learned. Actually I learned a lot of about science through this anime called Dr. Stone 😆
I agree when someone puts the label "FALSE" all I think is Facebook labeling things false and Donald trump's tweets in 2020 "FAKE NEWS." 😅😂 It kinda validates whatever someone is saying when someone gets so absolutely triggered
To me it did not feel like he lost the debate at all 😅 funny how I felt so differently than apparently the vast majority of listeners according to the comments. To me Kam lost this debate big time. All he did was talking about myths and conspiracies while Tony actually kept stating facts…when did he ever just say „you’re wrong“ … he always explained why he thought that Kam was wrong. I mean, as long as he didn’t interrupt him 🙄 Meanwhile it was soooo exhausting how Kam never just answered a straight question. That was hard to listen to.
@@jenwilson5766 What did he explain? Nothing. He was just saying "all the world disagrees with you", which is not even true. He was just inventing things out of his mind and he didn't brought any evidence. Kam referenced all his sources and he actually read out loud many passages. Maybe you watched a different video buddy.
Well done, Kam! Tony is very condescending and entrenched in his own beliefs that make him feel good about killing animals. Wow, did he actually try to compare killing animals to killing plants?
I would also add that maybe Jesus would have classified this debate as something similar to what the Pharisees would do, studying the scripture and having PhD’s and blabla instead of understanding the true meaning of what Jesus came to do here and show us: being merciful, kind and compassionate.
Team Kam well done you are a true scholar and a gentleman! Kams words are so eloquent, as speaking truth you would not be shaken. If this debate doesn’t show just that well idk. Thank you for having this debate! It just points even more to how we should live compassionately instead of sacrificing living sentient beings for 5 minutes of taste pleasure or a sandwich.
"I love my dog, trust me. And I've said in my book, I'm never going to eat my dog." the fact that that it would EVER be even called into question or worth mentioning in his book that he would not eat his dog is the reason I'm now a vegan. The eating of murdered animal flesh is a psychopathy that I am finally free from. Thank Christ, who I literally came to embrace simultaneously as I came to veganism, to me they are one the same and inextricably linked for the rest of my life forever. I live Gen 129 diet as a WAY OF LIFE and it is a PREREQUISITE for heaven. Preach the good news to All creatures 🙏🏼 free at last free at last 😊
"Hunters think and talk about the ethics of taking an animal a lot." This is an indictment of their moral character. People buying animal products engage in wilful ignorance. Hunters deliberately seek out opportunities to harm animals. They revel in violence and death. "If we can't feel our way into the feelings of others, then we are really kind of messed up." - John Sanbonmatsu
He is not willing to recognize his own sadism, and instead has found ways to sanctify it. But it's clear from the way he bears himself that he has a great deal of it within him.
@@Barnaclebeard I'd say he admits it outright: "I'm violently mortal." I'm pretty sure he's saying he struggles with his mortality and takes it out on the defenseless.
Well... I watched the full three hours. WOW, I learned so much. I don't feel like I can give an informed response until I read Tony's book and watch Christspiracy, but one observation to note is that Tony was very condescending to Kam multiple times with a sort of I'm more educated than you and truly talking down to him unnecessarily. Kam, on the other hand, was unruffled by this and while I'm not sure of his educational background, he comes across incredibly mindful and intelligent. Tony's eye rolls and anger speak volumes. But my big take away is that Ellen's role in all of this is a perfect example of WHY we should have a female president! Great job Ellen! The fact that you took the time to have Tony back on to say his peace was very powerful and the right thing to do.
Finally, some debate! Being a Christian and a Vegan is hard. Not because the two don't go together but because the church makes it difficult. My prayer is for the next reformation of the church to be one towards maximizing the message of compassion and mercy as Jesus taught. I've seen Christspiracy and it is a powerful and sobering look at where we are with animal ethics. It changed me and if you let it it might change you to!
@@korenavery4334 after I become vegan I noticed many Christians would openly mock me, make jabs, or I would be roped into a debate where I didn't want to go there, no food for me at events. This is tame based on accounts I have heard from other Christian Vegans. Things are changing at my church but for many its a harder struggle and there is a level of silent persecution non-vegan Christians should be aware of that only vegan Christians understand. There is a lot of social awkwardness associated with going against social norms especially in the church. Things are getting better though. Thank you for asking.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme Do you really think that's how it works? Let's be cruel because, after all, we'll be forgiven? Every action has its consequences. God judges but leaves free will. You have the right to be horrible if you want, but the path to the light will be longer. Your position gives the impression that you're more culturally conservative than Christian. I can quote you all the Bible passages that contradict you. (And I'm not even particularly Christian, my free spirituality feeds on the right teachings. That's what religion and spirituality are for. Not to find an excuse for one's lack of empathy)
"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages." (Thomas Edison, American inventor and scientist)
When Reverend Tony Jones actually said that animals don’t need to be saved, this absolutely, totally, and completely, went against the biblical scriptures, for the bible text clearly states, the exact opposite of this reverend's words. In the bible, the laws of salvation are clear and concise. Psalms 36:6; “God’s righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save and preserve humans and animals alike, O Lord.” Isaiah 52:10, it tells us, “The ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God!” Isaiah 4:8,“Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; for I, the LORD, have created it.” Isaiah 52:7, “Blessed are those who proclaim peace and salvation for all of God’s creations.” 1 Timothy 4:6, “Discipline yourself for the purpose of Godliness; persevere in all of God’s teachings, for when you do this, you will ensure salvation both for yourself, for those who hear you, and for all of God’s creations.” Proverbs 11:30-34; 3; “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise, saves lives.” 1 Corinthians 10:31, Christ told the people, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, seek the good of many, so that many will be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:4; “God wants all creation to be saved and people to come to a knowledge of the truth.” Isaiah 61:10, “The Lord sends out his people to proclaim freedom for all captives. God clothes God’s people with garments of salvation, and a robe of God’s own righteousness.” Psalm 37:39, “The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; When a righteous person saves lives the lord is inside them.” Psalm 146:3-4, “Do not trust in any mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. For there is no good in them.” Proverbs 11:30-34; 3; “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise, saves lives.” 1 Corinthians 10:31, Christ told the people, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, seek the good of many, so that many will be saved.” Isaiah 4:8,“The earth will open up so that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; for I, the LORD, have created it.” Isaiah 52:7, “Blessed are those who proclaim peace and salvation for all of God’s creations.” Hebrews 6:4-6, 10, “Think of things that have to do with salvation.” Ephesians 6:17, “The helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, is the word of God.” Psalm 34:18, “The Lord saves the ones who are crushed in spirit.” To normalize, legalize, follow, pursue, contribute to, support, and defend, the acceptance of God’s innocent animal creations to be harmed, hung, shot, strangled, electrocuted, butchered, mutilated, desecrated, dismembered, massacred, macerated, brutalized, raped, slaughtered, killed, harmed, eaten, tortured, experimented on, victimized, violated, gassed, stabbed, frozen, incarcerated, enslaved, abducted, eviscerated, and exploited as commodities crushes the spirit of an animal. To normalize, legalize, follow, pursue, contribute to, support, protect, encourage, and defend, the acceptance of God’s innocent animal creations to be abducted from their natural habitats and their families, and mothers, and they also allow them to be raised, force bred, and force fed, for the purpose of harm. suffering, death, destruction, desecration, dismemberment, incarceration, enslavement, torture, pain, suffering, misery, terror, hardship, worry, stress, misfortune, anxiety, depression, mangling, maiming, violation, victimization, distress, sickness, injury, illness, and disability. crushes the spirit of an animal. To take life, rights, expression, joy, freedom, liberty, independence, salvation, dignity, and peace of mind, body, natural habitat, and natural purpose, away from God’s innocent animals and non-human life forms who have done no, injustice, iniquity, or personal harm, or wrong to you, or to their human violators, oppressors, victimizers, and slaughterers. crushes the spirit of an animal. To normalize, legalize, contribute to, pursue, support, protect, encourage, and defend the repression, suppression, oppression, subjugation, restriction, and limitation of animals. crushes the spirit of an animal. Since these actions are coming from the most advanced species on the planet, God help the planet for we need to draw the line against these atrocities. James 1:21, “Put away all human filthiness and rampant human wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word of God, which is able to save your souls.” 2 Chronicles 6:41, “Let your priests, LORD God, be clothed with peace and salvation, and cause your godly ones to find their joy in what is good.” Isiah 60:17, “Make your officials be peaceful and your magistrate be righteous so that no violence shall be in your lands and your boarders will all be walls of salvation. For this is righteousness.”
Thank you so much for taking the time to post this. Beautiful. What a beautiful world we could be living in if these admonishments were actually adhered to.
Kam gets stopped for interrupting. Hunter keeps interrupting and doesn't get stopped. Kam is kind, Hunter is arrogant. Most importantly Kam's arguments are strong, Hunters are weak.
For the deer, it doesn't matter how sacred you think the act of killing them is. The deer didn't want to be killed. If a killer thinks that what they are doing is sacred, that doesn't change the experience for the victims. Whether you eat them at the end or not does not change the experience for the victim. I find it a bit disturbing that someone would say that killing got them through a hard time. Ending someone's life shouldn't be a coping mechanism.
An animal isn't a someone, it's a something. Plants don't want to be eaten either. They feel you ripping them from the earth, they feel being chewing on.
Hunting meat. I get the creeps every time humans say that. Call it flesh. Meat is a derogatory term. You consume the flesh of another being. No matter what animal they were born.
@@lillywalsh777 I can explain no problem. Example like a man lowering a woman down to what her body can offer just referring to her DD’s and not even knowing her name. All animals are classified as meat( cows, chickens, fish and so forth). Any grocery store in the world they have a big sign above their corpses MEAT” then you look closer it’s cow meat, chicken meat and etc. But they are just classifying them as what the human get from them meat. Imagine if they changed the sign to Flesh? I just wonder where would the human mind go to? Someone should do a social experiment. I doubt many people would notice outside of people like me. That would make me realize oh yeah this is flesh, body parts, severed legs. People eat the liver, feet, testicles. All things we have. So honestly most people would become cannibals if they couldn’t consume other species freely. What are your thoughts?
Seventh Day Adventist Christians who are known for being mostly vegetarian also happen to be one of the longest living people in the world and are part of the blue zones. Good evidence for a plant based lifestyle if you ask me
I appreciate the conversation Ellen brought forth between these two men but catering to Tony the way she did toward the end was very strange when he was clearly rude, condescending and arrogant toward Kam and even cutting him off to let Tony have his last word...
After two hours the angry hunter guy says animals don't matter but he loves his dog and won't eat it. Cognitive dissonance overload. The nice vegan wins
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
The amount of times he had to state his title, his certificates, credentials, his accomplishments speak volumes. Evolution happens when people stop following the person in front of them. Evolution happens when people ask uncomfortable questions. Great minds think (differently). This old way of doing things does not align with the consciousness that many are waking up to. Here’s to unconditional love. Not conditional love. Thank you Kam.
❤❤❤
"No, no, no!" is not an intellectual rebuttal. Tony needs to put his emotions aside and debate like a mature adult. Kam on the other hand did an amazing job remaining respectful, composed and rational. Thank you Kam for brining this knowledge forward, it is so very important.
He was Going through cognitive dissonance😂
He said much more after the no's
A mature adult? lol Kam interrupted countless times (as a child would) when Tony sat there silent trying to be respectful and then when he couldn’t take it anymore did end up replying like that.
@@Mycurvystory From my recollection, the only times Kam interrupted was to stop Tony from lying about him. If Tony was respectful he wouldn't have tried to tell lies about Kam.
He's too driven by ego, cognitive dissonance is real
Im sorry but Tony really disappointed me. As a Christian who was in the middle ready to listen to both openly all the animosity was unwarranted. Tony sounded like a college professor that can’t stand being questioned. And he’s saying “this is so…” and not explaining anything. Not Christ like. If he thinks Kam isn’t right this is not how you bring in people to get curious about Jesus.
I agree, sadly. He’s smart and made the right points but I do wish he brought some more grace
Kam on the other hand embodies compassion! Christlike! 🎉❤
Jesus wasn't vegan because it didn't exist, it's nowhere in the Bible to even be vegetarian... Even the most disinterested teenager in a Christian nation knows this...
kam is making things up
Tony raised his voice and grew frustrated with the lack of clear responses from Kam. The arguements presented in Christspiracy are from Gnostic sources, so for a Christian who holds to traditional Christianity (that would be Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians), they are invalid. I'm a Christian and I don't eat meat, but Christspiracy fails at its point. Sorry. Jesus ate fish.
Wow I’m so impressed by Kam, how professionally he discusses, how well he knows his facts and the scriptures, how calm he stays and how well he articulates his wisdom. What a deep and interesting debate, thank you Ellen 🫶🏼
well he is vegan of curse he have more patient then people kill animals and eat it sorry to be rude but it truth
The difference between someone who does their own independent research vs someone who is a doctorate is often times a piece of paper. Attaching an ego to your educational credentials is a sign of ignorance.
Yes!!!
I'm glad you said ego
His attitude is repulsive
If only people understood this more. What matters is the arguments and justification, not the authority, not the popularity.
I am going to be charitable and suggest he is referring to the amount of research hours and deep reflection necessary to earn a doctoral degree....? But certainly his attitude was not giving anyone that impression... very unchristlike imo
It’s unfortunate that someone who has lost his composure and threw a tantrum almost cursing at the end instead of responding to a final question, gets invited for a follow up. Kam was the one who was not allowed to say his thought last. Interesting decision on behalf of the host.
Exactly my thoughts
my exact thoughts too!
I think she was trying to extend an olive branch. Her platform is for the vegan minded, and I saw the decision to invite Tony back as a way of trying to make it a comfortable space for those that don’t share the vegan/plant based mindset. I don’t think Tony presented himself well honestly and agree that his composure could’ve been better, but I can understand Ellen’s decision to invite him back.
If one sat through this 3+ hour debate, one should’ve felt that it didn’t feel right ending it on that note. As the host, I think Ellen made the amazing choice by bringing Tony back for a couple mins to have the space to respond.
Ellen does a pretty good job staying unbiased and her doing this proves that.
Kam spoke more during the entire debate, and also interrupted much more. I think they both had interesting perspectives and I’m glad it felt a little more even at the end.
@@gracejohnston977 maybe if you're going to be doing debates and public speaking you should get some coaching in how to keep your cool. Or just sit down and let the mature adults handle it.
The hunter is a scary individual to be living among others! His views are psychopathic, he didn’t even show any empathy towards Kam opening up about his brother. He ignored this and he victimised himself even though he is the killer
Kam was absolutely incredible and so so grateful to kam and all he does, you can see what a kind heart he has and you feel that through the screen.
Choose kindness and don’t live like the hunter guy who chooses to live in the most brutal and evil way.
It’s so unfair people like him get to walk around free whilst murdering innocent beings.
🤣
Seriously, he is a psychopathic serial killer acting like _he_ is the victim from empathetic _questions_ !
@@leviahimsa psychopathic killer 😆
He's one bible away from a "Jim Jones".
Well said
Kam did an amazing job thoroughly investigating the Bible. I think resorting to the fact that someone has a “phD” in a subject does not always mean they are experts, rather their teachings tend to imitate a game of telephone passed on by others who were taught the same and they end up very closed-minded and self assured that they have learned the truth. I’m speaking from my own experience as a medical doctor. I have gone through so much training and have only done plant based research on my own and have uncovered significant truths that aren’t taught to us in school and residency- and actually we end up being taught the opposite. It’s very frightening. I hope one day “theologians” will be brave enough to question their teachings and go vegan like Jesus was.
In my experience, and I say this as senior principal electrical engineer, the most educated are the most uninformed and ignorant.
@@libertyvegan6686 The highly educated senior principal electrical engineer, calling other highly educated people ignorant and uniformed.
LOL!
Ordained Presbyterian minister here. Personally speaking, I think veganism is great. It’s a fabulous cause. I think we can all agree that the meat manufacturing complex is objectively horrible, and there are thousands of reasons to practice veganism from a moral, ethical and health perspective. Having said all that, I don’t think spending three hours on RUclips debating whether this conversation existed in the Middle East back two thousand years ago is especially helpful or productive to the cause. It doesn't change whether veganism is a good thing to do. I think Tony Jones is as obnoxious as the day is long. His delivery may not have been as calm and composed as Kam's, but the substance of his arguments is correct. Kam obviously has done a lot of independent research, and he's clearly a very smart young man. However, he is also heavily practicing what Biblical scholarship refers to as "inconsistent hermeneutics."
For example, Tony Jones brought up the book of Acts where Peter has a dream of a sheet being lowered from heaven with all these non-kosher animals. And he’s commanded to eat them. His point being, “God literally commands him to eat meat.” Kam's response to this passage is to take a hyper-literal reading. “Actually, it’s a dream, so it’s meaningless,” “Was it really even the Lord? The text just says it was a voice,” "Peter calls it Lord, but can we trust him?,” etc.
But then when Tony takes that same hyper-literal approach to John 21 ("Jesus ate fish, case closed"), Kam suddenly accuses him of being TOO literal. All of a sudden, the rules he set earlier go out the window so that can pull out some numerology theory around Pythagoras to wave the whole thing away and say, "Well, THIS passage counts, but THAT one doesn't."
This is a very inconsistent hermeneutic and would get Kam laughed out of any serious Biblical scholarship circles. It may make for an interesting movie like "The Da Vinci Code," but it's not going to convince anybody who takes this stuff seriously.
I was also pretty shocked that neither of these men brought up that Jews eat lamb at Passover. It's the central dish of the Seder meal. Surely we're not suggesting that Jesus Christ (a devout Jew) walked into the Temple, year after year, and refused to participate in the Passover meal. That would have been truly scandalous and nearly impossible to imagine that nobody bothered to write that down.
Again, none of that has anything to do with whether Christians should be vegan. I think there are a thousand different reasons why they should be. But this isn't one of them.
Often those SELF educated, are more inspired and motivated to dig just a little deeper, think for themselves, connect the dots and dispel the doubts. 💜
The meat eaters won and in medicine, Big Pharma won. Read the Flexner report, commissioned by John D Rockefeller Sr, who wanted Drugs to be used, because Big Oil is an ingredient in Big Pharma drugs.
Dang. Tony’s behaviour was quite shameful. He actually became a bit emotionally manipulative towards the end. Kam was wonderful, insightful and kind. Props to him.
...and bullying, haughty, just unprofessional in general and certainly not the way an 'elder' of the church is instructed to gently lead the young men. Truly shameful
Tony seemed so angry to me, I kept imagining him unleashing his anger on animals in the woods.
Tony was really hard to sit through. He was incredibly condescending and smug, and started off having to clarify his credentials. Not a good start to the discussion. I wish the time he spent on his PHD was time also spent learning to speak kindly and maturely, or even the least bit respectful.
I’d expect having a discussion about the Lord would be something that sparks joy and wonder; not annoyance and hostility.
Also; how can he even sit there and claim animals don’t have a first person experience/knowledge of their existence??? Zoologists around the globe have dedicated their LIVES to advancing our understanding of animals; as their voice isn’t easily understood by certain people. That is a complete slap in the face to all of the zoologists and animal researchers who have put in so much heart and soul and time and money into the research and understanding of animals. They have proved time and a time again that they are sentient, conscious beings with feelings, just as we are. I cannot sit here and listen to this man when he says things like this so ignorantly.
I don't agree at all, he was just frustrated because the text was being taken out of context
As a Christian listening to 2 hours of Gnostic rhetoric and taking the word out of context and CONSTANTLY being interrupted would and should be frustrating and and annoying. The other dude was MUCH harder to sit through the way he constantly spoke in circles and never answered directly - that conversation would be my absolute nightmare and Tony did great imo haha
Tony and other animal serial killers are just defensive because they are recognizing how wrong it is to *unnecessarily* inflict violence onto others.
I agree honestly, even though I agreed with more of Tony’s points. For clarity’s sake, I am plant based but have been walking through the ethics of this lifestyle for almost a year now and I was looking forward to this debate. Like I said, I agreed more with Tony overall still despite my personal lifestyle choice, but he was incredibly hard to listen to because of his posture throughout this conversation. I think he did a disservice for himself and his pov, and I wish he could’ve come into this conversation less defensive and more open to having a discussion. I still appreciated the willingness on both sides to come on, but I do think Kam’s confidence in his perspective allowed him to not be too defensive in his responses to Tony. I’ll be watching Christpiracy soon though and I do appreciate both sides for coming on and presenting their positions for the audience.
@@rachelpayne8497he only interrupted to correct the words that were misspoke.
I see Kam embodying the virtues of Christ - humility, patience, forgiveness, respect, pursuit of truth and I see Tony embodying the characteristics of arrogance, self righteousness, anger, aggression, and projection. Knowing little about the Christian texts/historical records they are discussing it is much easier for me to give Kam the benefit of the doubt than Tony. It is difficult for me to listen to Tony while when Kam speaks I want to hear more. If there is truth in Tony's words it is lost behind his poor character.
Totally true. I fall in the middle of this debate but when I look at these two, I see Kam embodying way more humility and self control and gentleness.
How is Kam being kind and compassionate when he dodges questions like politicians put on the spot?
Example:
Tony- "Why would Jesus tell the fisherman to go catch fish if he was an animal liberator?"
Kam- "That's a good question. Pythagoras 500 years earlier.....number 153 is sacred.......Vesicus Pisces..... correlates with the number 254.........
And y'all wonder why Tony was losing his temper.
@@satanslayer9320 In your comment you've shifted the goal post, put words in my mouth, cherry picked, taken out of context, misrepresented Tony's temper, and generally engaged in an aggressive manner. Your dishonesty combined with your aggression demonstrates you did not come in good faith and consequentially it is not possible to have a positive, honest, productive and truth seeking engagement with you. Peace and Grace.
Well said.
@@libertyvegan6686 Lol. Avoid the fact that Kam was bad faith in the debate, because he dodged questions.
Isaiah 66:3 (ESV) :"He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck [...] These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
Great -- and here's another in Isaiah where God pronounces animal sacrifice as evil - Isaiah 1-11 - “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? I delight not in the blood of bullocks, lambs or goats. And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes. I will not hear, because your hands are full of blood. Wash yourself, purge yourselves; leave off the EVIL of these doings."
Isaiah 66:3 is a verse from the Book of Isaiah in the Old Testament of the Bible. This chapter deals with themes of judgment, worship, and the behavior of people in relation to God's commands. Here is the full verse:
"But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a person,
and whoever offers a lamb
is like one who breaks a dog’s neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig’s blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense
is like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and they delight in their abominations;"
This criticizes the empty and hypocritical religious practices of the people. It contrasts outward religious rituals with the genuine faith and obedience God desires. The verse makes several comparisons, each showing how certain sacrifices, when made insincerely or hypocritically, are as detestable as committing various abhorrent acts:
- **Sacrificing a bull** is likened to killing a person.
- **Offering a lamb** is compared to breaking a dog's neck.
- **Making a grain offering** is equated to presenting pig’s blood (unclean in Jewish law).
- **Burning incense** is likened to worshiping an idol.
The message is that God values genuine devotion and righteousness over mere ritualistic practices. The people's religious actions are rendered meaningless because they are carried out without true repentance or faith, and they delight in practices that are abominable to God. This verse emphasizes the importance of sincerity in worship and adherence to God's ways over superficial religious observance.
Ah, an ellipsis. Always a red flag when it comes to quoting scripture.
If your conviction doesn't allow you to eat meat, that is absolutely your right, however, the bible is not about eating meat or not eating meat. It is about broken people needing to be restored to God and cleansed of their sin. The cleansing of our sin is only possible though the willingly sacrificed blood of Christ. No animal sacrifice will cleanse us just as eating or not eating, killing it not killing animals today will not cleanse us.
Trust in Jesus, not veganism!
@@jannad3406 In fact, not eating animals or their products, hence not killing them or abusing them, will cleanse us. As study after study shows, and countless personal recovery stories relate, avoiding animals and their byproducts cleanses first our blood, then the organs and tissues of the body have a chance to clean up and recuperate. And as the body and mind are closely interrelated, the mind then has a chance to release its burdens toward a more liberated state. Many many people have reported this for many many years. And by all means - trust in Jesus, or any exemplar of peace (and love and kindness)!
You conveniently left out the next two sentences.
"Giving a grain offering as if it were swines blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol"
In full context, your cherry picked scripture discusses intentionally of an action, and nothing to do with animal liberation.
Hi im a devout Christian and a vegan of 13 years just popping in to say we are rare but we do exist ❤️
Yes we DO!!! 💪🔥🙏
"I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and defiled my land and made my inheritance detestable."Jeremiah 2:7 (NIV)
Bruh my suspicions are that Jesus just refilled the source of water they over fished with fish again to restore their eco system and their they go the hunter s throwing their nets but not cause Jesus told them 😂
Boom.
Sure, I get it, someone challenging your beliefs can be upsetting. But Tony’s reactions were just childish. He needlessly made the whole conversation tense. He didn’t act in the spirit of a scholar. He put forth his little PhD-fueled ego. It’s a debate. You can’t win your way by being impatient or by means of sounding aggressive. It just betrays your own weakness and lacks of confidence in your stance.
I don’t understand how a person needs to kill to get through a difficult time. Like, what in the world is comforting about killing? Again, this is a messed up, deranged heart and mind.
Exactly. Ending someone's life should not be used as a coping mechanism.
Oh my goodness!!!!!! I found the Tony guy absolutely 💯 APPALLING. He was condescending, arrogant, hot-headed, emotionally explosive. I am disappointed in the host for not calming Tomy down. It was ridiculous. I have seen many debates on lots of subjects plant based but wow, this guy was accusatory, belittling and basically more emotionally involved he can justify eating meat, fish, dairy, and eggs. It's sad he was so arrogant. I found Kam very compassionate, calm and respectful, and complete in contrast to Tony.
I suspect Tomy was like this because if Kam is right that scripture has been meddled with, scrolls destroyed, then HUMANITY has a MASSIVE PROBLEM ,and Tomy knows it!
The hunter was offended by his own words. He KNOWS that killing innocent animals is wrong, otherwise he’d be comfortable hearing HIS OWN WORDS read back to him
I know his reaction to an excerpt of his own book being read to him in which he gave permission to do so and then being offended by his own words…a complete ego response and the ego never makes sense.
That ending 🤣. Allowing Tony to speak one more time at the end - it's just a silly admission of his defeat. You allowed him to speak like this just because he was throwing a tantrum and being aggressive and nasty. Kam wins by his sheer character. His patience and attentiveness is what we should all seek to emulate.
Immense gratitude for you opening the space for healthy dialogue, and hosting a conversation suppressed for millennia. For 2,000 years, this debate has been avoided, though it was monumental and widespread in the early church-led by Jesus’ brother and the original movement. It’s time we address it. Stay tuned for the worldwide digital release of @christspiracy and join the revelation. 🙏🏼
If God intended man to eat only plants, then he wouldn't have made man dependent on vitamin B12.
END OF STORY!
@@satanslayer9320 omg, so much stoopid. B12 is something that microbes create, and you have trillions of them in your body. Get your facts straight dude!
That was an easy win. All Tony offered was "no, you're wrong and everone in the world disagrees with you".
@@satanslayer9320 B12 is found everywhere, but soils are depleted by intensive farming. The animals you eat are serially injected with b12.
END OF THE STORY.
@@satanslayer9320even farm animals need to be supplemented with B12. It's about microbes in the soil that are being destroyed
I'm not religious, but Kam embodies compassion and the defence/protection of those who suffer and are defenseless- isn't that what the Christian religion preaches? This resonates with me.
Hunters look for reasons to make their choice ethical, and this guy is no exception. He comes across as arrogant, angry and condescending.
I only care that, a) animals suffer, feel joy, pain and many other emotions, have connections to other beings, and a desire to feel safe and live, and b) I would never want to inflict deliberate suffering upon an animal, either by doing it myself, or paying for it. Simple.
Doesn’t matter which person acted which way, all that matters is what the Bible teaches, and what is true. Kam, and veganism can not stand on truth. The Bible,doesn’t support that philosophy.
I wish I knew someone like you!
Yes! They are our brothers and sisters.!!
As a non-Christian, what I'm hearing is that many details in the Bible are not clear or interpretable in a literal sense. So maybe instead of "answering questions" about the text with speculation, we should actually use our own brains and moral intuitions (which in the Christian worldview, God gave to us as a reflection of his own image) to understand how to move forward. And judging by how children often react when they learn that the food they're being fed is actually the body parts of slaughtered animals who are not fundamentally different from their companion animals, I think human moral intuition naturally leans pretty heavily towards adopting animals into the sphere of moral consideration.
Interesting you know some people don't live off groccery stories and there own land right, sounds like privileged people would love to say this. Other countries that aren't westernized would beg to differ
@@GODSloveleeDAUGHTER Perhaps that's why the bible (and the old testament in particular) did not explicitly condemn eating animals, and also provided guidelines for how to keep (human) slaves. In at least one Christian viewpoint, the brutality of the old testament is a reflection of the cultures God was speaking to, and not a complete and perfect description of His ultimate will (would such a description even be possible?). If God had explicitly condemned slavery, wartime pillaging/rape/murder/etc., and exploitation of animals, the prophets who transmitted the message probably would have been written off as idealistic and naive, and maybe rightly so given the conditions of the world at the time.
The definition that is often cited for veganism incorporates the caveat "as far as is practicable and possible". For most people in the modern world, it is practicable to not exploit, kill, or eat animals (or pay someone else to do so). Do you live in a developed nation?
I think this is an excellent point. One of the issues is that anytime someone asks, “Did Jesus say/do (fill in the blank),” there are really two versions of that question. The first is “Did the BIBLICAL Jesus say/do any of these things?” The second is “Did the HISTORICAL Jesus say/do any of these things?”
These are two very different questions, and depending on which one is of primary interest to you, the internal logic required is going to be completely different. For example, if the question is “Was the historical Jesus a vegetarian?” the answer to that question (in my judgment) is “It’s possible (albeit unlikely)." There’s almost vanishingly little that we know for sure about the historical Jesus that is contemporaneous and reliable. It’s possible he was vegan. It’s also possible he ran around in an elephant costume saying the Pledge of Allegiance each day. We just don’t know.
If the historical Jesus bore even a passing resemblance to what's portrayed in the Gospels, then I think it's very likely that, at the very least, he did things like attend Passover, eat lamb as part of the Seder meal, etc. because that's what the vast majority of Jews did back then. But there's almost nothing reliable and contemporaneous about his life that historians will accept as surefire fact. The best accounts we have are the Gospels, and they were written well after the fact.
If the question is “Did the Biblical Jesus eat things like fish, lamb, etc.” the answer to that is “Yes." I don’t think it’s even a question. One of the most questionable tactics of people like Kam Waters, Dan Brown, etc. and others like them is pretending like certain passages are authoritative when it suits them and writing others off as non-authoritative when they don't, (depending what best serves their agenda).
Hallelujah
Tony’s intense emotional reactions make it so obvious how Kam’s words are challenging the very core of his personal identity.
@@janascheibel9780 Yes. This is the heart of Tony's anger. His identity is being directly challenged and questioned. Few things in human psychology are we so emotionally tried to and defensive of.
Nope, he's triggered every time the bible is taken out of context...as he should be.
The words of Truth are disturbing Tony’s blood hungry demons
@@cv7357 Naw it’s just demonic possession. Anyone who consumes the blood & flesh of the innocent are going to hell. Thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill. Repent & believe in the gospel.
Thank you Kam ❤️ Couldn’t be more grateful to have you fighting this fight for all beings. Can’t think of anyone better or more eloquent to do it ❤️❤️
As a life-long Christian I can absolutely say, hands down, that Christspiracy is the most important film of our time. A life and history-transformer. The film reveals shocking truths that nobody expected-not even me. The essence of Christianity is love and mercy, yet many (including my past self) have forgotten “the way” or worse, choose to ignore it. It’s a must-see film with an open mind, but most importantly, an open heart. Knowledge is Power! “Then Jesus said, ‘He who has ears to hear, let him hear.’”-Matthew 11:15
Echoing this!
If God intended man to eat only plants, then he wouldn't have made man dependent on vitamin B12.
END OF STORY!
@@satanslayer9320 b12 comes from bacteria, not animals
@@satanslayer9320 B12 is found everywhere, but soils are depleted by intensive farming. The animals you eat are serially injected with b12.
END OF THE STORY.
@@satanslayer9320B12 is present everywhere, but the earth is depleted of nutrients due to intensive farming.
The animals you eat receive B12 supplements.
I just want to share… I went vegan a little over two and a half years. Right away I started to feel better. The more I have cleansed my body the more I have experienced healing in my body. I’m talking over 30 years of chronic pain leaving my body. Makes perfect sense to me that God never wanted us harming and killing animals. I am now a frugivor and the truth of how nature was created as well as our bodies in infinite wisdom. The truth makes sense. “Let everything that has life praise the Lord”
The body is a temple, not a graveyard
You like all humans, were ALWAYS a frugivore
@@CHRISTSPIRACY.comJESUSwasVegan 100% Sistar, now the rest of mankind and womenkind need to remember who we truly are… Frugivor to the core…
Fellow veggie here 👋 going on 14 years. For the entirety of those 14 years, I’ve been challenged about my stance and had the Bible used as a weapon against my views. I have been insufficiently equipped to defend my lifestyle until today as I absorb the facts shared in this video. Not only does it feel validating to what the Holy Spirit has prompted in my heart so long ago, but now I can encourage others with my confidence in what scripture says. Grateful for this content!!
Genesis 1:29 (NIV) - "Then God said, 'I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.'"
Absolute perfect quote!! 💛
Genesis 1:29 talks how Initially, God gave humans a plant-based diet, consisting of seed-bearing plants and fruits.
However, after the Flood things have changed:
Genesis 9:3: After the flood, God expands the dietary options for humanity. God tells Noah and his sons: “Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.” This verse marks a significant change, where God explicitly permits the consumption of animals.
Reasons for the Change:
Post-Flood Environment: The flood drastically altered the earth’s environment, and this may have impacted the availability of plant food sources. Allowing the consumption of animals ensured that humans had sufficient nutrition.
Human Condition: After the fall (Genesis 3), the world became more challenging, and human needs and circumstances changed. The inclusion of animals in the diet may have been a concession to these new conditions.
Divine Permission: God explicitly permits the eating of animals, which indicates a divinely sanctioned expansion of dietary options.
Dietary Laws:
Levitical Laws: In the Mosaic Law, specific dietary laws were given to the Israelites (Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14), outlining which animals were clean and could be eaten and which were unclean and should not be consumed. These laws were part of the covenant with Israel and served religious, health, and identity purposes.
People eat animals today based on a combination of biblical permissions, cultural practices, and individual choices. While the initial diet in Genesis was plant-based, later biblical texts reflect a broader view that includes the consumption of animals. The Bible provides a framework where dietary practices can evolve based on divine guidance and changing human needs.
Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
@@satanslayer9320 Genesis 9:4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal."
Don't kill basically. Eat dogs dead of old age or accidently hit by a car. Don't pay to kill animals. They give their accounting of you to God.
@@leviahimsa I see you still quote mining in vain.
You do realize animals are bled out before they are eaten? Right?
The red juicy stuff that comes out of the meat when cooking is a protein, not blood.
If God intended man not to eat meat, he wouldn't have created man to be dependent on B12.
Kam, love that part at the end where you correlate the pain that your mother felt when she lost her son (your brother) and the pain of the deer/dairy cows having their children taken away and killed. Super powerful and so true. Tony was offended by this because he realized he’s the one separating and killing families. Honestly, great work holding him on that. He needs to know the pain and suffering he causes.
Cows aren’t human. They don’t have “children.” Child is a human term. You’re equating humans to animals, animal suffering to human suffering, and if that’s the case, you’d have a difficult time between saving a calf and a human child.
@@ArmindaHeartI’m sorry, are you saying that animals don’t give birth and don’t care for their young? That’s incredibly ignorant if you think that and you should learn more about animals lives. Cows are very maternal, they care and love their children, and when a farmer takes their baby away in the dairy industry, they cry and scream for days or weeks.
Also I never equated humans to animals, I was just appreciating kams logical comparison between the two actions.
@@SweetPotatoTyler once again, you are humanizing animals. Cows don’t have “babies,” they have calves. Of course animals care for their young-otherwise, life wouldn’t exist at all-but a cow doesn’t need therapy after their offspring is killed or taken. It doesn’t seek revenge. It doesn’t jump off a cliff from sadness. Animals have instincts for survival, and that includes their offspring. God made humans (not animals) in his image. Do I think humans needlessly harming animals beyond a quick death is ok? Of course not. Those cows you feel are so pure and sweet will stomp their own young into oblivion, sometimes because they’re weak and sometimes because the female is inexperienced. Animals in the wild will happily kill each other and their prey and eat their catch while still alive. Do they ever regret their decisions? Absolutely not. Do they feel pain? Absolutely! Pain is necessary for survival.
I fully understand all animals feel pain and can therefore suffer, which is why I fully support sustainable and humane farming, both of animals and plants. Because the vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds you purchase and consume come from farms that practice pest control and unsustainable farming, like destroying soil and animals and their habitats; therefore you also partake in the suffering of animals and our environment. I pray farming practices change and we can live peacefully on our planet. I try my best to grow and store lots of vegetables and fruits from my garden and have chickens too - I’m lucky enough to live in an ideal growing environment. I have had to resort to killing insects and pests when populations are out of control (my cat helps with rodents) and my chickens occasionally die from disease and predators. It’s simply how nature goes. I feel vegans are so out of touch with nature (most live in the comfort and convenience of a city) that they don’t understand how nature works.
@@ArmindaHeart following that line of humans farming, then leaving calves with their mother until they wean is humane.
Today’s modern dairy farming is not. Taking calves straight after birth and the mother ‘cries’ out for the calf and it’s quite haunting, hits you in the human heart in a primal way IMO speaks to the unnatural sequence . There is to a natural instinct and connection for protection of her offspring.
Stress hormones are released and then we drink their milk.
Then the mother is artificially inseminated to do the whole thing again. Halving their life expectancy.
Personally I see modern dairy crueler to the cows then the beef farming in my country. Australia., our cattle are grazed not feedlots like USA.
There is one dairy supplier that does naturally wean calf that I am aware of, this is the one I recommend to clients who want dairy (I’m a nutritionist)to best support humane farming in this messed up world.
@ArmindaHeart I feel like that argument isn't valid. I know people who would save their pet instead of a stranger in dire situations. No particular comment on it so much as that it is contextual for most people. What are your thoughts?
Wow! The cognitive dissonance is intense with Tony. The fact that he keeps saying, "you are wrong!" He seems to think that he is the only one who knows things. My question is why would you fight for the "right" to hurt other creations. He also is about following the majority, "because the majority does it, it must be right."
There's no ethics if you kill an animal having the option of not doing it.
To eat.
@@sofiabravo1994 No one is saying that you don't have to eat, we are saying that, to eat, you don't need to hurt someone.
Ethics is not a word in the Bible. You just mean your own subjective opinion.
@@jimmythadani We literally do, all food production causes death of animals whether directly or indirectly.
@@RickyVis We understand, and we’re not perfect. It's similar to driving your car to work every day, knowing that somewhere along the way there might be an accident. Your intention is never to harm anyone, but inevitably, something could happen. That doesn't mean we should stop driving or that our goal is to cause harm. The world isn't perfect, but as we evolve, we can work to minimize collateral damage.
Additionally, even though a vegetarian might directly consume more plants than a non-vegetarian, the latter consumes more plants indirectly. This is because the animals they eat were raised on a diet primarily made up of crops, such as grains and soy, which require large amounts of plant production. In fact, non-vegetarian diets demand more land for cultivation, which results in more plants being grown, and therefore, a greater impact on wildlife habitats. This, combined with the animals killed directly for food, means that the environmental toll of non-vegetarian diets it's literally greater than that of vegetarian ones.
He the hunter , forgot that kam also hunted and also fished... All kam was trying to say is that it is unnecessary to kill animals for food today and that we can expand our circle of compassion.
11:30 but he was an adult! 😂
Some people care like 90 and still are not mature and lack wisdom. @@ASMRyouVEGANyet
Hunters do have compassion for animals....
@@erickgreen2361 Well maybe some hunters, in some kind of ways. But it is not a question between hunting or factory farming. It is for, or against, ending their lifes to begin with. It is unnecessary as another person also wrote, which makes me ask, where is the compassion in continueing to hunt?
@@carothehonestpeanut Animals products are needed for a natural lifestyle, by that I mean a life not completely dependent lab grown products and living like our ancestors did. There is also the health burden of doing more biosynthesis than necessary and dealing with plant toxins that aim
to shut down the metabolism like phytic acid in beans and goitrogens in vegetables....
I don’t know that I could’ve kept my composure as well as Kam! The amount of times that man condescended to him, called him “friend” in a placating manner, twisted his words, it was hard to watch at times!
Kam really represents the true spirit of Christ in this interview. Good stuff...thanks!
Yikes! this hunter guy is incredibly arrogant and edgy.
The guy finds solace in killing animals!? 🤦🙄
I know right.
3:02:28 Tony is making two false equivalencies:
1. There is a difference between accepting the fact you will eventually die and using this as a rationalization to prematurely take another being’s life.
2. Vegans accept the fact that part of living in the modern world will entail benefitting from processes that involve incidental death to humans as well as animals (e.g. vehicles collisions, industrial accidents, crop farming, etc). These tragedies are not the same as, nor do they justify participation in, lethal actions that intentionally exploit another being, such as killing an animal or their offspring to steal their flesh.
Simply put, we must not use any being for ends for which they do not share, even if we cannot avoid all incidental harm our lives may cause others.
Violence to the text is wrong but violence to animals is ok, got it, reverend. 👀
2:08:00 This is where it's starts to get good. Tony starts to show his human superiority complex. "we're better", "they're submoral", "they're not like us", "we're smarter".
Oh well, wait until 2:55:00. Lol
Was anything in that statement invalid?
Or is your comment vegan cope?
@@satanslayer9320Yeah, this is logic people have used to justify things like slavery, sexism, racism, etc. and he’s using it to justify killing animals. He’s saying that because we have different genetics (even they have the ability to think, feel, and suffer in a similar ways to us) that it’s ok to kill them. Hitler used this same logic against the Jews.
@@satanslayer9320it's the basis of bigotry.
@@leviahimsa The basis of bigoty is a fact of nature?
You people are kookoo.
I so appreciate the film and co-director Kam couldn't be more knowledgeable about every jot and tittle of the bible. Bravo. Honored to be part of this animal liberation movement with scholars, film makers and activists such as Kam.
Honestly, that was a hard watch at times. That guy is totally emotional, super offended, and unprofessional. When you are having a debate, keep it clean. You completely harm your potential audience when you are unable to be calm, cool and collected. I think it was pretty apparent who acts more like Yashua
Yeah totally! If that's how meat eating Christians behave, then sign me up for the opposite.
It's hard to have your beliefs questioned, especially when you've believed them for so long and have invested so much in them. They become your identity and so I think Tony's defensiveness was just that he felt his identity was being questioned. I don't think Kam is trying to attack Tony or anyone, at least it didn't come across that way in this dialogue. But I think he is just asking people to consider that there is more to the story than what's on the surface. If you aren't open to digging into your beliefs, I wonder just what you are afraid of?
If you watched the part where Kam reads Tony's, you can realise how sick he is.
I mean, he is describing it as a "sacred thing"! Wow, what the..
@@alexanderTheVeganabsolutely the level of grotesque graphic detail he goes into even mentioning the animal is female multiple times is very disturbing I would not want children getting their hands on a book like that or anyone that is mentally vulnerable.
People like him don't possess any critical thinking skills.
A hunter is killer, a murderer, he has knowledge, but no compassion, no mercy no Christ love. Jesus is life, love mercy but in this hunter s heart only hate and food. So sad so many Christians like this hunter. God s kingdom is peace love righteousnes joy. You , Christians, bring God's kingdom down to this earth now. " May your kingdom come, may your will be done as it is in heaven "
Tony: How dare you challenge me by asking a valid moral question in context of my own beliefs, especially after asking permission. That's low.
Also, Tony gets A LOT of scripture wrong. Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY human. My goodness.
He argues for homosexual marriage as if the Bible isn’t clear on this so we aren’t surprised
@@Sportyspice7 Only one book of the bible ever mentions it, and it does not apply to modern Christians, or anyone else alive in the world today. But fascists have no time for nuance.
I think he was part of the "emergent church", I don't know what he is now...he also talks about accepting his mortality whereas the Bible talks about eternal life through Christ.
Even though I don't share these same spiritual beliefs I did really appreciate hearing both sides. So basically what I've learned is that the Christian bible started off/ began with no slaughtering of animals, and then later on slaughtering of animals was a thing these people got involved in doing for whatever reason. So my conclusion is that there's a choice. A choice to kill and take life, or a choice to be vegan and let live. Animals are sentient beings and feel pain, so the preferred moral choice would have to be let the animals live and go vegan.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. It's one of the Beatitudes. Your physical body witnesses all the animals that you eat by chronic disease. It is actually amazing to watch the overcoming of these same diseases when people choose to have mercy on the animals. It seems to be a true concept. You are right that it is a choice.
@@BowenUSA Absolutely ✌️
Thank you for debating with this man and showing all who watched the plain and simple truth. Hands down Kam made more sense, never angered or offended as was the case with the Reverend. Thank you for being so knowledgeable and working so hard for the animals. The ending was very powerful. ❤
Hunter says the way he butchers animals has put him in touch with his food. Okay. But not in touch with the actual sentient beings who just wanted to live.
Who is Hunter ????
@@bronwynarmstrong118 The man trying to justify hunting and killing animals on the podcast.
I mean, that was the intention with the animal sacrifices...
He said it was a spiritual experience for him. I wonder how much of a spiritual experience it was for the deer? It all just seems so one-sided and self-serving.
Plants are sentient aswell and have more life form intelligence.
It is painful to listen to Tony talk... but my pain in listening to his blasphemy is in no way in comparison to the pain and suffering of the victims of his unnecessary murder of dogs, cats, pigs, deer, horses, cows, etc... This is the power of the devil... he can parade around in the shoes of a pastor and corrupt the minds and souls of people.
That is why we should all just stop and think and listen to our heart. When we stop and listen to our heart, we are not killing animals. So extend that to your everyday life.
100% to Kameron Waters
a Gentleman
Kind
Compassionate
Wise
Loving
Honest
my friend ethan agrees!
Kam makes me want to become a Christian. Tony makes me want to become a Buddhist.
I love Christspiracy! It was so necessary to talk about that topic honestly
I am so sick of the WHINING, mistemper and hostility of a meat eater defending his position of eating a sentient being. Over 2000 years later we are arguing ethics delineated in a politically tampered with text of over 2000 years ago.
Yes, totally tampered with to cover up the Church's attitude towards animals and their lucrative sacrifice business, and the flesh-eaters who edited it!
@planetofthevegans880 I'm a devout Christian in lots of ways, but I agree that I think the bible was tampered with.
This is a time of revelation and truth. Kam is bringing so much wisdom. We can and should question anything and anyone. No one was there to witness any of this. We blindly believe what has been passed on but it’s about to change big time. Nevertheless great discussion.
This Ph.D. lost the debate because he was too emotional and confrontational. He had a narrative that he wanted to uphold and no amount of common sense explanations or hidden truths could make his hardened heart show any compassion and understanding for what Jesus' message truly means. Great job Kam. You have to seek ye the truth and you shall find it. Seeking is asking questions.
Can’t wait for the digital release of Christspiracy!
Stay tuned its coming soon!
@@christspiracyfilm yay!! ❤️
Yes, please 🙏 ❤ thank you so much for your work !!
@@christspiracyfilm Woohoo! 🙏🏻
Amen!! We've been looking for it online and can't find it! Can't wait to see the film!!
Tony you cannot have it both ways. If you are proud of killing and eating animals why are you getting upset when Kam reads your book?
@happycats9034 Totally.
Also, if Jesus was fully mortal man and didn't know that the moon orbited the Earth, then Jesus also suffered the same ignorance as the people of the time and basically thought that fish were vegetables.
I'm so happy Kam actually read the book at the end and hit the spot.
Tony's spiritual connection to the killed/killing animals is nothing but his own unexpressed anger and grief about what happened in his personal life.
Nothing spiritual about it but definitely delusional and big denial.
Grief your pain away Tony and leave the animals alone, time to evolve.
Even a child can answer this simple question - how would Jesus kill an animal....
Your heart became a heart of stone.
Thank you Ellen for this debate. I do not eat animals and am not a believer and it was so interesting to hear both sides. I have so much respect for both of them for being vulnerable coming onto your show. People will surely judge one way or another. I don’t want to say anything negative in here but I sure am very happy that I don’t personally eat animals and wouldn’t eat them regardless of what the bible says. My heart simply cannot take the idea of sensual being being slaughtered against their will, being so so scared just for me to eat it when it’s absolutely unnecessary in the 21st century. I am definitely not putting animals below humans.
If Tomy is a man of God, i am absolutely flabbergasted!!!! I wouldn't join his congregation ever whether im vegan or non vegan. Bloody hell, cross him, think differently, and get the sharpness of tongue. Righto Tony. You need to go back to bible school to learn kindnesses, humility, and dare i say it PATIENCE.
I've met pastors from the Westboro Baptists in person, and he reminds me of them.
@TheChadXperience909 Gosh!! That doesn't bode well. I am very glad I am studying the RCIA to become Catholic next Easter 2025. I am not saying the Catholic church I'd perfect, but it is for me, authentic in its teaching, and even in Catholicism, they have to sort out the issue of eating meat.
Look how mad the meat guy is getting lmfao. it's like you're pissing on his front door or something.
Tony's behavior was not deserving of being given a private closing to the conversation.
Well i talked to Kam about it after the episode, and since Tony was upset at the end and didn’t get to share his thoughts fully on why, we both thought it was a good idea. ❤️
@@theellenfisherpodcast You're so kind hearted to offer it to him. I really enjoyed the conversation and deep dive. Thank you for creating this. 🙏💖
True. I assume Ellen's "momma" instinct to pacify the crybaby kicked in.
bottom line, Jesus was kind and its not kind to kill. any argument against compassion is sadistic. Tony already said that he does not take the bible as faultless.... the lying pen of the scribes
What about all the former vegans that developed eating disorders, lifelong health issues, starvation, etc… and before the “they weren’t doing it right” crowd comes along, these were people who were “doing it right”, and in the end decided to be kind to their own bodies and nourish them with the diet of our ancestors. I think it’s important to look at it that way as well. It veganism works for you, that’s great! But if it doesn’t, it isn’t ethically wrong to kill animals for food. When religions vegans shove their ideology down peoples throat as “gospel” that’s where I have a problem. At that point it has become an idol. And it’s causing people who cannot tolerate this diet and lifestyle to stumble.
@@jjgems5909I am a 65 year old “vegan” that is perfectly healthy….like on no medications!!! Whole food plant based is the way to be spiritually and physically healthy!! 🙏🕊
@@jjgems5909 I've been vegan (whole food, no oil) for almost 14 years and it's easy. There are plenty of sick necrovores as well. How do you know they were doing it right?
@@jjgems5909what medical condition prevents you from being healthy on a plant based diet?
he was. he also ate fish and lamb
Christspiracy made me just more in love with our G-d. As Kam, I also transitioned to veganism during the Daniel Fast a few years ago. The debate; Tony and his facial expressions, constantly interrupting and talking down on Kam just shows how steadfast people will believe culture rather than the spoken Word of G-d. Kameron, may G-ds face shine on you, you are appointed by Him, we love you and value you. You are someone I will proudly call brother. Love from South Africa
Jesus be spitting facts, we no longer need to consume and slaughter animals. Live life love all animals not just cats and dogs.
Christspiracy was one of the most revealing, exciting, paradigm shifting films i've ever seen!
I am a Christian, you can tell them by their fruit, what is very clear here in this debate is something beyond words, beyond interpretation of text, it’s their fruit, one, the meat eater/ hunter has an aggressiveness, he is full of pride, ie I went to Yale, I have an education, I am thus better, no heart, no fruit, no kindness shines from within, trying to justify a moral stance that aligns with evil, and selfishness, the other the vegan, has a light, has the fruit, has the understanding, has traveled not just read books in a class, but truely understand the heart, God bless them both and I pray God gives them both a deeper insight, thank you for sharing this pod cast Ellen
I can't believe Ellen got these two on here. So so exciting!
Had the pleasure of seeing an early cut of this film for a "friends and family screening" then getting to see the final cut at the LA Red Carpet Premiere was an HONOR! Kip and Kam and team have done a powerful job!
Tony: crop deaths tho, intelligence tho, anthropocentricism, human supremacy, plants have feelings, but people have always done it, the majority rules, might makes right, pleasure justifies an action and so on.
A PHD doesn’t mean you know everything. Just means you have a vast knowledge in a certain field. And as we know fields are always expanding and changing.
How many Dr.s, Dentist, etc, etc say the same thing and still know very little about the body, healing, health. You are right a PHD just means you are regurgitating the knowledge you gained from the institution that fed that knowledge to you.
@@keelyarychuk5955 yeah. That’s why I like to read up and experiment with herbs and on myself. That’s how you truly learn. Use some books to guide you to knowledge and implement what you have learned. Actually I learned a lot of about science through this anime called Dr. Stone 😆
Tony was very condescending.
Literally by saying: "I draw a line and do not consider animals morally at all because i am better."
It is so good to live vegan and have a compassionate life for the defenseless animals 💚🌱
"We've done horrible things to this planet, but [implying that it's still okay because] we've also done incredible things to this planet."
LoL. This guy is so triggered he lost the debate. All he was saying "no, you're wrong."
That's a pretty obvious loss.
I agree when someone puts the label "FALSE" all I think is Facebook labeling things false and Donald trump's tweets in 2020 "FAKE NEWS." 😅😂 It kinda validates whatever someone is saying when someone gets so absolutely triggered
Who ? There are two guys
@@tashaax1993xanimalloverx
Clearly Tony.
To me it did not feel like he lost the debate at all 😅 funny how I felt so differently than apparently the vast majority of listeners according to the comments. To me Kam lost this debate big time. All he did was talking about myths and conspiracies while Tony actually kept stating facts…when did he ever just say „you’re wrong“ … he always explained why he thought that Kam was wrong. I mean, as long as he didn’t interrupt him 🙄
Meanwhile it was soooo exhausting how Kam never just answered a straight question. That was hard to listen to.
@@jenwilson5766
What did he explain? Nothing.
He was just saying "all the world disagrees with you", which is not even true.
He was just inventing things out of his mind and he didn't brought any evidence.
Kam referenced all his sources and he actually read out loud many passages.
Maybe you watched a different video buddy.
Well done, Kam! Tony is very condescending and entrenched in his own beliefs that make him feel good about killing animals. Wow, did he actually try to compare killing animals to killing plants?
I would also add that maybe Jesus would have classified this debate as something similar to what the Pharisees would do, studying the scripture and having PhD’s and blabla instead of understanding the true meaning of what Jesus came to do here and show us: being merciful, kind and compassionate.
Oof - Spot on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HEAVENLY INSIGHT IF THIS IS PUT INTO PRACTICE.
Team Kam well done you are a true scholar and a gentleman! Kams words are so eloquent, as speaking truth you would not be shaken. If this debate doesn’t show just that well idk. Thank you for having this debate! It just points even more to how we should live compassionately instead of sacrificing living sentient beings for 5 minutes of taste pleasure or a sandwich.
What a load of BS, as if Jesus, the man who loves all creations, was killing anything .
He feeds the ravens and not a sparrow will fall with out the father. OBVIOUSLY they care about there creations
Agreed! It's so ridiculous that we even have these conversations!
"I love my dog, trust me. And I've said in my book, I'm never going to eat my dog." the fact that that it would EVER be even called into question or worth mentioning in his book that he would not eat his dog is the reason I'm now a vegan. The eating of murdered animal flesh is a psychopathy that I am finally free from. Thank Christ, who I literally came to embrace simultaneously as I came to veganism, to me they are one the same and inextricably linked for the rest of my life forever. I live Gen 129 diet as a WAY OF LIFE and it is a PREREQUISITE for heaven. Preach the good news to All creatures 🙏🏼 free at last free at last 😊
"Hunters think and talk about the ethics of taking an animal a lot."
This is an indictment of their moral character. People buying animal products engage in wilful ignorance. Hunters deliberately seek out opportunities to harm animals. They revel in violence and death.
"If we can't feel our way into the feelings of others, then we are really kind of messed up." - John Sanbonmatsu
He is not willing to recognize his own sadism, and instead has found ways to sanctify it. But it's clear from the way he bears himself that he has a great deal of it within him.
@@Barnaclebeard I'd say he admits it outright: "I'm violently mortal."
I'm pretty sure he's saying he struggles with his mortality and takes it out on the defenseless.
That's a great quote. Saying you prayed or killed the animal in a spiritual way is of no consolation to the victim.
Well... I watched the full three hours. WOW, I learned so much. I don't feel like I can give an informed response until I read Tony's book and watch Christspiracy, but one observation to note is that Tony was very condescending to Kam multiple times with a sort of I'm more educated than you and truly talking down to him unnecessarily. Kam, on the other hand, was unruffled by this and while I'm not sure of his educational background, he comes across incredibly mindful and intelligent. Tony's eye rolls and anger speak volumes. But my big take away is that Ellen's role in all of this is a perfect example of WHY we should have a female president! Great job Ellen! The fact that you took the time to have Tony back on to say his peace was very powerful and the right thing to do.
Yes except your sexism and delusion over women for the sake of it. Destructive
Woah. When Kam read that excerpt of Tony’s book, I legit was nauseated. That is a messed up heart and mind.
Finally, some debate! Being a Christian and a Vegan is hard. Not because the two don't go together but because the church makes it difficult. My prayer is for the next reformation of the church to be one towards maximizing the message of compassion and mercy as Jesus taught. I've seen Christspiracy and it is a powerful and sobering look at where we are with animal ethics. It changed me and if you let it it might change you to!
How does the church make it hard for you to be vegan ? Why would they care if your choose to avoid animal products ?
@@korenavery4334 after I become vegan I noticed many Christians would openly mock me, make jabs, or I would be roped into a debate where I didn't want to go there, no food for me at events. This is tame based on accounts I have heard from other Christian Vegans. Things are changing at my church but for many its a harder struggle and there is a level of silent persecution non-vegan Christians should be aware of that only vegan Christians understand. There is a lot of social awkwardness associated with going against social norms especially in the church. Things are getting better though. Thank you for asking.
I'm a Christian, so not a vegan. Do you dare to judge me, for my food choices, when God doesn't?
Yep.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme Do you really think that's how it works? Let's be cruel because, after all, we'll be forgiven? Every action has its consequences. God judges but leaves free will. You have the right to be horrible if you want, but the path to the light will be longer. Your position gives the impression that you're more culturally conservative than Christian. I can quote you all the Bible passages that contradict you. (And I'm not even particularly Christian, my free spirituality feeds on the right teachings. That's what religion and spirituality are for. Not to find an excuse for one's lack of empathy)
Kuddos to the young guy for being so calm while hearing all this nonsense! I am very patient but I am raging here. 🤬
same, he kept misunderstanding and putting his own twists on Kam's words as well which I could NOT stand
"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."
(Thomas Edison, American inventor and scientist)
When Reverend Tony Jones actually said that animals don’t need to be saved, this absolutely, totally, and completely, went against the biblical scriptures, for the bible text clearly states, the exact opposite of this reverend's words. In the bible, the laws of salvation are clear and concise.
Psalms 36:6; “God’s righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save and preserve humans and animals alike, O Lord.”
Isaiah 52:10, it tells us, “The ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God!”
Isaiah 4:8,“Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; for I, the LORD, have created it.”
Isaiah 52:7, “Blessed are those who proclaim peace and salvation for all of God’s creations.”
1 Timothy 4:6, “Discipline yourself for the purpose of Godliness; persevere in all of God’s teachings, for when you do this, you will ensure salvation both for yourself, for those who hear you, and for all of God’s creations.”
Proverbs 11:30-34; 3; “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise, saves lives.”
1 Corinthians 10:31, Christ told the people, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, seek the good of many, so that many will be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:4; “God wants all creation to be saved and people to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Isaiah 61:10, “The Lord sends out his people to proclaim freedom for all captives. God clothes God’s people with garments of salvation, and a robe of God’s own righteousness.”
Psalm 37:39, “The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; When a righteous person saves lives the lord is inside them.”
Psalm 146:3-4, “Do not trust in any mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. For there is no good in them.”
Proverbs 11:30-34; 3; “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise, saves lives.”
1 Corinthians 10:31, Christ told the people, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, seek the good of many, so that many will be saved.”
Isaiah 4:8,“The earth will open up so that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; for I, the LORD, have created it.”
Isaiah 52:7, “Blessed are those who proclaim peace and salvation for all of God’s creations.”
Hebrews 6:4-6, 10, “Think of things that have to do with salvation.”
Ephesians 6:17, “The helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, is the word of God.”
Psalm 34:18, “The Lord saves the ones who are crushed in spirit.”
To normalize, legalize, follow, pursue, contribute to, support, and defend, the acceptance of God’s innocent animal creations to be harmed, hung, shot, strangled, electrocuted, butchered, mutilated, desecrated, dismembered, massacred, macerated, brutalized, raped, slaughtered, killed, harmed, eaten, tortured, experimented on, victimized, violated, gassed, stabbed, frozen, incarcerated, enslaved, abducted, eviscerated, and exploited as commodities crushes the spirit of an animal.
To normalize, legalize, follow, pursue, contribute to, support, protect, encourage, and defend, the acceptance of God’s innocent animal creations to be abducted from their natural habitats and their families, and mothers, and they also allow them to be raised, force bred, and force fed, for the purpose of harm. suffering, death, destruction, desecration, dismemberment, incarceration, enslavement, torture, pain, suffering, misery, terror, hardship, worry, stress, misfortune, anxiety, depression, mangling, maiming, violation, victimization, distress, sickness, injury, illness, and disability. crushes the spirit of an animal.
To take life, rights, expression, joy, freedom, liberty, independence, salvation, dignity, and peace of mind, body, natural habitat, and natural purpose, away from God’s innocent animals and non-human life forms who have done no, injustice, iniquity, or personal harm, or wrong to you, or to their human violators, oppressors, victimizers, and slaughterers. crushes the spirit of an animal.
To normalize, legalize, contribute to, pursue, support, protect, encourage, and defend the repression, suppression, oppression, subjugation, restriction, and limitation of animals. crushes the spirit of an animal.
Since these actions are coming from the most advanced species on the planet, God help the planet for we need to draw the line against these atrocities.
James 1:21, “Put away all human filthiness and rampant human wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word of God, which is able to save your souls.”
2 Chronicles 6:41, “Let your priests, LORD God, be clothed with peace and salvation, and cause your godly ones to find their joy in what is good.”
Isiah 60:17, “Make your officials be peaceful and your magistrate be righteous so that no violence shall be in your lands and your boarders will all be walls of salvation. For this is righteousness.”
Thank you so much for taking the time to post this. Beautiful. What a beautiful world we could be living in if these admonishments were actually adhered to.
Kam gets stopped for interrupting. Hunter keeps interrupting and doesn't get stopped. Kam is kind, Hunter is arrogant. Most importantly Kam's arguments are strong, Hunters are weak.
For the deer, it doesn't matter how sacred you think the act of killing them is. The deer didn't want to be killed. If a killer thinks that what they are doing is sacred, that doesn't change the experience for the victims. Whether you eat them at the end or not does not change the experience for the victim. I find it a bit disturbing that someone would say that killing got them through a hard time. Ending someone's life shouldn't be a coping mechanism.
An animal isn't a someone, it's a something.
Plants don't want to be eaten either. They feel you ripping them from the earth, they feel being chewing on.
Ellen, I love your podcast! You have such interesting people and perspectives
oh thank you! thanks so much for being here and for your support
Tony is frustrating to listen to, his whole demeanour and tone tells the viewers so much already.
I need Kam to write a book 📚 🎉
Oh, yes! I'd buy.
Hunting meat. I get the creeps every time humans say that. Call it flesh. Meat is a derogatory term. You consume the flesh of another being. No matter what animal they were born.
@@lillywalsh777 I can explain no problem. Example like a man lowering a woman down to what her body can offer just referring to her DD’s and not even knowing her name. All animals are classified as meat( cows, chickens, fish and so forth). Any grocery store in the world they have a big sign above their corpses MEAT” then you look closer it’s cow meat, chicken meat and etc. But they are just classifying them as what the human get from them meat. Imagine if they changed the sign to Flesh? I just wonder where would the human mind go to? Someone should do a social experiment. I doubt many people would notice outside of people like me. That would make me realize oh yeah this is flesh, body parts, severed legs. People eat the liver, feet, testicles. All things we have. So honestly most people would become cannibals if they couldn’t consume other species freely. What are your thoughts?
Yum
Plants are alive too, and they don't want to be eaten either.
Seventh Day Adventist Christians who are known for being mostly vegetarian also happen to be one of the longest living people in the world and are part of the blue zones. Good evidence for a plant based lifestyle if you ask me
But there are other Blue Zones where they eat meat! Just an observation.
This hunter guy has little control over his emotions and comes across as unhinged.
I appreciate the conversation Ellen brought forth between these two men but catering to Tony the way she did toward the end was very strange when he was clearly rude, condescending and arrogant toward Kam and even cutting him off to let Tony have his last word...
She was probably trying to pacify Tony because he's a big crybaby.
One spouting off their credentials, the other is making valid thought provoking points . The hunter was severely outmatched
It was hard to watch this hunter guy , I pray for him. Kam is right all the way. Peace to all humans and animals. 💫🙏🏻🌱
After two hours the angry hunter guy says animals don't matter but he loves his dog and won't eat it. Cognitive dissonance overload. The nice vegan wins
You know someone is losing the debate when they talk in defeatist ways and start attacking character instead of arguments.