I thought I'd experiment on this video, and not ask for likes or subs. Low and behold, it has a very low like count, and no subs, LOL. So if you liked this video, please give it a thumbs up! Thanks, Tom
Really interesting experiment, genuinely thought people just said "Like and subscribe" because everyone else does it, not because it actually improves results
#PID ✌🏼😃 This is one complete review and excellent guide together with the former video. Thank you very much for leaving almost no questens left and checking out the options to upgrade the machine.
As a beginner I have a Delonghi Ec260bk for a year, still working well just the after market portafilter goes to right more than 90 degree.The original Delonghi portafilter is still good and locks well.I need an electric grinder.Learnt lot from you Tom Thank you.
I’ve been pulling great shots on my gen 2 Gaggia Classic Pro, no mods. I got a Eureke Mignon grinder, which was a game changer. Control over the grind was the key to unlock my Gaggia. #PID
I started with a casabrews cm5418. Had the same problem with pre-ground coffee and the pressurized basket that come with it. Buying a bottomless portafilter and a grinder completely changed my experience. For just over $150 USD, I had a nice machine, with a good steam wand and a bottomless portafilter with a double basket. Of course, you'll need a grinder too. Advanced mode for the win!
Thanks a lot for the series on this machine. I got it as my 1st machine, so i dont have much experience. I was going mad with the water overflowing, did not understand why. I've ordered the opv springs now. Hope to get a decent improvement If not,seems i've wasted my money on this machine. It's very difficult to get a decent shot with medium-light or light roasts 😢. Works much better for medium and dark roasts
hopefully you’ll do a follow up video on this when there are more users out there. so far i’ve read that people are switching out their shower screens to IMS ones and they fit. that combined with the 9 bar OPV mod seems to have greatly improved their experience with the machine. I’m planning to get this hopefully in the last quarter of the year as it is still not available in our Southeast Asian region yet. fingers crossed. though I wanna say that I’ve been enjoying your videos. keep it up!
also i have a feeling that this like the Gaggia Classic Pro will have a community of its own because I read that the Gaggia Espresso is made from already existing parts from other Gaggia products, which is genius i might add.
I would not look a lot on the PID numbers, if you look at Lance Hedrick's review on the Bambino Plus, you'll see that the Bambino's temperature is identical to this one. So as long as it doesn't continuously rump up and down in temp, and the results in taste are good, it should be ok.
#PID Thanks again for your honest opinion! This was on my short list together with the Dedica and ECP, but I think this one will leave the list. Next to your pointed out points I also find it still looks to plasticy.. I wonder if this machine is just a remake of the Gaggia EG2109 which does not seem to have many postive reviews although it also has an PID. Cheers Tom!
Does anyone have any advice for the frother on this? With the plastic tip attached, like Tom I get a ton of foam too quickly and no temp in the milk. Without it the milk gets very hot but not thick and frothy at all. Just warm milk.
I have owned a DeLonghi Stilosa for about a week now, got a $50 new open-box e-bay item. It is good, but I feel incredibly limited. I am considering an upgrade to a HiBrew H10A.
Isn't the standard portafilter helping to retain the heat that as produced whilst warming up? I get better shots on my Classic using the original portafilter instead of a naked one.
As you had to install a 9bar spring we can say that a extraction with a bottomless portafilter has a lower flow than with a pressurized basket. The resistance of the Puck in a bottomless portafilter is Higher than at the pressurized basket. For sure the Resistance depends on how fine you grind the Coffee. Back to Advanced mode-setup with 9bar spring installed. The pre-heated thermoblock most potententially get a shut-off by the PID-circuit at the early beginning of the extraction because the flow is lower than at a pressurized basket and overheating is the a reason for the countermeasure "shut-off" of the heating of the Thermoblock. So quite early, as PI"D" also stand for quite a fast regulation, the heating of the thermoblock is switched on again and the I-character of the regulation is shown. The I-character is shown by the re-ramping towards the goal temperature. You may measure the current for the thermoblock heating element....
You could very well be right there. It holds a better curve with the pressurized baskets, so I am thinking that flow is considered in the PID curve as well. That's a good idea to measure the current during the extraction - I'll have to try that. Also, you could be right that the thermoblock pre-heats, as it pauses for 3 seconds after the button is pressed, then pumps for 3 seconds, then pauses for the pre-infusion. The first 3 second pause is probably warming up the thermoblock.
@tomscoffeecorner thanks for this in depth update. I’ve gone down the route with the portafilter but have the leaking issue - shall I persevere or call it quits and get a bambino plus? Cheers!
Thank for this review! Surprised that gaggia has so many disapointing things, just comparable to contless nonamed chinese mashienes.. Seems like saeco-gaggia brand success came to the real end.
I know you basically thought this machine was rubbish but I still kind of want one. I guess it’s like when you choose to buy an Alfa Romeo. It’s built in Italy, home of the espresso and it’s more style over substance. It requires effort to get along, like adopting a rescue dog. It’s aimed at people like me with a history of making poor consumer choices based on emotion.
Haha, thanks for your comment. I really appreciate that it's made in Italy, but it certainly has flaws. But you're right, you can make any machine work for you if you try hard enough. Cheers!
On my Saeco Starbucks Barista, if you crack open the steam knob after pulling a shot, it relieves the pressure in the group head so you can remove the portafilter. Mine doesn't have a 3 way solenoid as well. Might be worth trying that on this machine
@@frodehokholt3944 I've never really had that problem for some reason . I'm not that well versed in the internals of my machine, but I know there's a spring activated mushroom valve between the boiler and brew group
I have an old saeco aroma, and do this as well. No issue and it’s probably 20 years old now. Just make sure to flush and keep water fresh inside at all times.
Is there a basket that holds more than just 14 grams 'double shot'?. I'm looking for a deeper one (as the 53mm diameter is a fixed factor) and can't seem to find anything. Does a bottomless portafilter hold more? I'm using the stock pressurised basket that came with the machine. Thanks.
I have an Evo Pro that I use off-label in that I let it run to about a 4 ounce shot that I like to drink as a small coffee. I'm wondering if the Evolution would produce a similar brew. Anyone out there have any experience with this?
Hi Tom. i am using ec685 with non pressurized basket . I'm wondering whether to upgrade to gaggia classic pro or another device. Will coffee quality improve? Just brew 3-5 cups a day
Hi Tom, have you the temperature measurements using the solis basket in the standard portafilter? How does the temperature chart compared to the ones you produced with the dedica Annfield GCP?
Yes, temp readings were taken with Solis basket in bottomless Edesia PF. I don't remember for sure, but I think the Dedica is similarly stable/unstable, and GCP kind of starts higher and falls downwards throughout the shot, unless the heating element happens to engage.
A question of this unit. Does the Espresso Deluxe PID have a three-way valve or just use preload with a strong spring on its "anti-drip" check valve? Do models like the Gaggia Classic have a similar anti-drip system? The reason I ask is that if one has to overcome the backpressure of the anti-drop valve and the other does not, maybe they should use OPV valves set for different pressures. Units with spring-loaded anti-drop valves lose some pressure to overcome the spring. In other words, if it takes 2 bars to overcome the force of the spring, the pressure that actually gets to the coffee is 2 bars less than being produced at the pump. If you want the puck to see 9 bars of pressure, your OPV should be set for 11 bars.
That's an interesting theory - I'd have to try measuring the pressure at the grouphead, but I don't have an adapter for that. Whatever the case, this does NOT have a 3 way solenoid. Cheers!
Thank you very much for this very good and in deapth video! This is what I conclude from your videos. A plastic group head has little thermal mass, so temperatures will be unstable. Also I definatly do not like the idea of clamping in a portafilter into plastic threads every day. So the Gaggia Espresso and the Dedica is out because of this. So for me, this leaves the Delonghi ECP's, with a brass boiler on a brass group head as my first choice for a low budget espresso machine. Have you tried temperature surfing by flushing the machine before pulling a shot? To warm up the group?
Well, by the time I did the PID measurements, I had already made like 4-5 shots, so it was plenty warmed up. The ECP by the way has a SS boiler, and an aluminum group head.
The difference between the Group temperature and consequently - the portafilter temperature on ThermoBlock based mashines (dedica) and boiler based ones (stilosa, ecp) is huge, imho. That is why boiler mashines extract more from your coffee - more sweetness, more balance, reachness, more other notes.
Hi Tom, Is there a compatible filter holder on Amazon USA for this machine? I am from Uruguay and it is very difficult for me to get accessories from Europe. Thank you very much and continue with your excellent reviews
It works fine, but I'd also suggest the 9 bar spring with that setup, because without it, it often squirted out of the brew group for me. I also don't like the OEM PF that much, since you can't see the extraction.
Hello Tom, Who is your reduced diameter portafilter basket by? I purchased the Edesia 53mm bottomless portafilter upon your earlier video as my reference. My home barista espresso journey began with capillary action and major confusion 😂 . Thanks for the clarity. After ongoing experiments: 2mm mesh puck screen provides more even resistance than a flat disk perforated puck screen with the Edesia bottomless. Results may vary and as you suggest grind settings are key. #PID
I provided Edesia with feedback to mill out their subsequent batches of these. I hope they do that. The other basket I have is a leftover from the Solis Perfetta Plus.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I have the same problem with the Edesia 53mm bottomless portafiler. And I can't find anywhere to buy the right 53mm basket. But as I understood it, it fits from Solis Perfetta Plus and if I'm not mistaken it is this one? Solis IMS Perfetta Filter Basket 14-16 g
Hi Tom! I have an issue with the extraction of this machine and wonder if you possible could help me out, please. I used the same amount of coffee and poured the same amount of liquid as your first try in this video. I used fresh beans with the finest grind the grinder allowed me to make (which is a really fine powder) and I pressed the tamper the hardest I could using the included tamper (which is btw too small for both the single and double filter), I only got an extraction time of 6 seconds! Which is waaay too fast. Although I tried to copy you completely, I don't get a good extraction time and I am really not sure what I am doing wrong or how to improve the extraction time. Thanks in advance if you have time to help :D
Would the non pressurised basket fit into the included portafilter and be a good combination for this machine as the included portafilter as better temperature stability? #PID
It does fit, but I really prefer using a bottomless, and the original has the flaw that the baskets fall out when knocking the spent puck. Also, plastic. Cheers!
With the mods made, this would be roughly the same price as a Flair Classic with a gauge, or not too far away from a Cafelat Robot. Which would you recommend, thinking of 1, the money spent, and 2, the best possible shot? #pid
Lever machines are fun, but I don't like that you have to pre-heat the chambers. I have difficulties getting shots hot enough. So, I'd always recommend a machine with a heater in it, myself.
#PID I've got this machine, with the bottomless portafilter, but no spring mod - and have been impressed so far. I've only had one instance where I got capillary action, otherwise it's been absolutely solid. It does run fast and I do get cratering but I've been using a mesh screen to mitigate that, so I'd be interested in trying it with a different spring. Overall, for ~200 quid including new portafilter, I'm struggling to feel anything negative about my purchase(s). Also, with the steam wand I've had the intense splash once - the first time I did it lol. That was a shock. The rest of the time I purge it briefly just before use and it doesn't do that anymore, producing lovely results - purging it first doesn't seem to have a negative impact on the steaming for me, but I'm not the best (or even a good) latte artist so maybe I'm missing something. Great review, very in depth and useful to see the issues people are having with it, will be interested in watching your video implementing the new spring!
Yes, it is. I find it very difficult, because it’s hard to keep the porta filter sealed against the brew group. I would recommend a different machine to be honest.
#pid I was about to order this over Dedica and ECP… and now I’ve watched this video. There’s a little choice in my market within this price tag, and as a beginner who just fancies a good double espresso in the morning and a flat white in the evening I’m now even more confused… do you recommend more this or Dedica, or ECP? I know it may seem stupid but for me ECP looks like the hardest one to use? For my whole life so far I’ve used only drip machines:)
You could schedule an advisory meeting via Teams if you like, via my website (just hit the contact button). It's hard to write everything here, regarding ergonomics. Also, your market plays a large role. Feel free to contact me there. Best, Tom
Thank you Tom, decisions are easier when you have a partner… 'PAF' has been a decider here and I ultimately opted for Dedica. Having watched your videos about it I’m really exicted. I’m just wondering if it’s worth to start modding (portafilter, basket etc.) with such cheap grinder as DeLonghi KG89? I was pretty satisfied with the results with drip machine, but I see that really good grinders start at at least ~200 euro
#PID Thanks for your dogged persistence in testing this, it's really an eye-opener. I was thinking of getting this machine for my daughter, who has no experience making espresso, but it appears that you need experience to get the best out of it. Kinda paradoxical. Still, she only has my old Baratza Encore grinder which, although I jimmied it to get a slightly finer grind, is essentially a non-espresso device. I suppose it would be OK with just the standard pressurized basket... That dance you have to do with the steam wand though, is a bit off-putting. Re your bottomless woes (sounds like the Pit of Despond), I suppose if confronted with them Gaggia would reply that they can't allow for non-Gaggia accessories, which would be fair enough. All the same, other machines accommodate to 3rd-party PF's... Anyway, this machine doesn't appear to be carried by French dealers yet so I reckon I'll mull it over a bit longer, or order from over the border in Germany - if that's where yours came from. Cheers!
I bought mine off of eBay.de, but I think it might have come from Italy. I ordered a new shower screen too. I think with the combination of the shower screen and OPV, it's decent. But I wouldn't put it over the Dedica, and that's the silly thing. Gaggia should have looked at the Dedica and improved upon it.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner It's available on eBay here too, but I'd rather wait and get it from a dealer, if I get it at all - better for service etc. Waiting might also mean that Gaggia produce an improved model for sale outside Italy. Here's hoping...
i think you're right on the money with using pre ground for this and these type of machines this machine is a crappy version of a dedica is my of crude assessment
Agreed, Justin. I think this machine was really designed for pressurized baskets only. Not sure why they’d bother with a PID on such an entry level machine. Especially since Tom’s testing seems to show it is well implemented. Unless the PID, as implemented, cheaply solved some other temperature issue inherent to the design.
9:35 Lance only was able to get the milk froth that way by taking out the bubbly froth with a spoon in the pitcher while leaving the fine froth in there. There seems to be no good way to steam with a panerello, otherwise machines targeted at enthusiasts would have it I assume.
I think the reason your commenting viewers (I would guess they’d mostly be subscribers) don’t want you using pre-ground coffee, is that these viewers/subscribers are mostly coffee hobbyists at one level or another and aren’t interested in pre-ground, and/or commodity coffee. But we’re still interested in entry level machines for one reason or another. For that see our comments from your prior “Channel Direction” video. RUclips videos have two kinds of viewers: the subscriber and the non-subscriber. I know, earth shattering revelation. But I think that I can accurately say (vaguely) who these people are. The typical subscriber of your channel is someone very interested in coffee. Either a full on hobbyist, or just getting started; dipping a toe in. The non-subscriber is a casual viewer who got sent to this video while searching vaguely for something about espresso, Gaggia, this machine, or whatever. Who knows how algorithms REALLY think. The hobbyist (or at least the entry level espresso hobbyist) is interested in this machine. We want to know what it can and cannot do, is it for us and if so, how can we get the best out of it. An advanced hobbyist (or at least someone who can afford really high-end gear) might be interested in it as a gift or recommendation for a beginner friend or family member. We subscribers either have grinders or at least know they’re the way to go and may want this machine (or not) as a starter to either go with the grinder(s) we have, or are planning on upgrading our ability to get more out of a machine like this by eventually getting a grinder to use with it. I, for example, was the non-subscriber type two years ago, when I got a moka pot for Christmas (which I thought was a cheap way to make espresso) and found myself searching RUclips to figure out how to use it. I already had a Breville 450XL, which I think is a rebadged Wilfa Svart. Through the videos (mostly James Hoffman), I discovered specifically coffee, and within 3-5 months I was experimenting with specialty coffees, found I loved high acidity, light roasts and spent, over the next year, around $1000CAD on an Aeropress, J-MAX hand grinder, nicer cups, pitchers, milk frothers, tools, etc, etc, etc. I built a nice little coffee bar in a relatively out of the way corner of my dining area. I don’t have an espresso machine now. But some day, maybe. And that’s why I watch and have subscribed. I suspect that I’m not atypical. #PID. Ps, keep up the good work.
Hi Corey. Part of the reason I enjoy so much running this youtube channel, is to read comments like this. It's nice to know who's watching my videos, and learn the stories behind your guys' journeys. I also learn a lot through the comments. So thanks for your thoughtful analysis. You could very well be right with the subscriber and non-subscriber audiences. They are also always in a little flux, I think. I might explore more AeroPress/pourover stuff in the future, but espresso is my weakness, and I'm glad you're along for the ride, even if you don't have an espresso machine currently. Wishing you a great day! Tom
Couple of minutes ago i saw a video of yours and it need payment subscription to see it. I tried to support you as much as i could in past times. I watched your videos, i liked your videos and subscribed your channel. But after saw that thing now i unsubscribed from your channel. Thanks for your videos that i watched in past and i wish you a good life...
#pid. ... I bought this machine on recommendation from another youtube reviewer, tbh I'm just getting into coffee making , but I am disappointed I was expecting something better, I wish I had spent more on another brand .
Thinking of buying this machine or whichever of it's siblings are cheapest. Then spending an extra £30 on a 9 bar spring, Edesia basket and 33.3m screen. Have you tried the Edesia basket in the Gaggia portafilter or will I need an Edesia portafilter too?
Well, after watching this detailed review, it seems like the Delonghi Dedica might be a better option compared to this machine. The Gaggia Espresso Deluxe falls short in terms of mod possibilities. The plastic construction of the portafilter doesn't quite appeal, especially when compared to the versatility offered by other options like the Dedica. Additionally, the low light button is somewhat disappointing. It makes you wonder how such design choices get approval. #PID
Not even dedica but also delonghi stilosa and ecp which have a boiler, good assembly Quality and uncomparable temperature stability, they are easily customizable and bring you good coffee drinks for a ridiculous price.
I'd go for the ECP 3420 or ECP 35.31. But yes, the Dedica is also a better design than this Gaggia, imho. The only thing this Gaggia does better than the Dedica is that it's easier to open up, and the OPV spring can be replaced.
No, this is not worth it. The time & frustration for a sub par shot. The pressurized shots look thin. Too much work. Tom can you find the best auto espresso maker where you only have to drop the grinded coffee in the hole and it does the rest. I had this Magic Saeco. It wasn't perfect but I only had to push the button and I got a decent shot. I have the cheap delonghi 680 and 685. I'm tired of grinding, making a mess, the shot fails. The water cannot come out of the portafiller. Then I adjust the grind and may work, sometimes bitter. It is so much work. I'm thinking of going back to automation. Thanks for the videos! I was just thinking how you Make it look so easy. It was good to see you have a video where you struggled just like the rest of us.😅
If you’ve got the money, the Sage/Breville Barista Touch Impress. From all the reviews I’ve seen, it’s probably the best of Super Automatic convenience with really high quality espresso. But they’re pricey. $2200CAD regular. But with patience they’re regularly on sale for about $500CAD off. Your local price, will of course vary.
I also have a dedica and also a ECP series. Both are simple to get decent shots with the right grinder Hell, I even got okay results with a 45eur Delonghi KG79 shitgrinder I would suggest Toms playlist of the dedica. It's a simple machine
Hi there! If you just want it easy and no mess, the Dinamica Plus is hard to beat, and makes actually really good drinks. Any portafilter machine is going to require a good amount of work, and a bit of a mess - it's just inherent to the design. I guess the best is maybe the Breville Barista Express Impress with integrated tamper. That makes the least mess. But still it's more work than a SA.
I was stupid enough to buy this machine... It actually burns the coffee produces no crema at all My old cheap china machine was atleast 3 times better for 1 3rd of the price!!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner after this fiasco i followed your advice, bought the ecp 35.31 with some upgrades, been enjoying a whole new world of flavor ever since 👌
It seems as if you went out of your way to sabotage this review, when steaming you continue to let the small jug overflow and watch it do that. When you zero the scale it's with the small jug, then you measure it with the large jug 🧐. When you put it into advanced mode you already know the large jug is better for you but you go back to the small jug. It seems you wasn't advanced to use it in that mode, slowing down the video to 0.25x you can see you lower the milk allowing it to spray out. Even the shower screen puck image you show at the start and at the end are different, one has a clear spot in the middle and the last one doesn't.
This machine is poorly engineered, constructed from much cheaper materials, gives an inferior espresso, and is substantially more expensive, than the ECP 3420 or ECP 3630 models from Delonghi. I don’t quite understand what Gaggia was thinking when they put this out. There isn’t even a comparison. This is a machine that can do nothing for the company but sully their good name and they should really pull it off the shelves immediately.
I guess in the UK this is at a similar price... It is Made in Italy which while might not mean much, I still rather have it than a Made in China one. Often items made in China (I guess margins allow it) have more metal etc... but nonetheless the fact that is made in Europe is worth it for me vs. Sage or Delonghis lower end.
I thought I'd experiment on this video, and not ask for likes or subs. Low and behold, it has a very low like count, and no subs, LOL.
So if you liked this video, please give it a thumbs up! Thanks, Tom
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Well said I wouldn't pay that for a grinder I love it 😅 will buy one
Hi Tom, I wonder about the frother strength, how is it compared to the Bambino Plus?
Really interesting experiment, genuinely thought people just said "Like and subscribe" because everyone else does it, not because it actually improves results
#PID ✌🏼😃 This is one complete review and excellent guide together with the former video. Thank you very much for leaving almost no questens left and checking out the options to upgrade the machine.
As a beginner I have a Delonghi Ec260bk for a year, still working well just the after market portafilter goes to right more than 90 degree.The original Delonghi portafilter is still good and locks well.I need an electric grinder.Learnt lot from you Tom Thank you.
I’ve been pulling great shots on my gen 2 Gaggia Classic Pro, no mods. I got a Eureke Mignon grinder, which was a game changer. Control over the grind was the key to unlock my Gaggia. #PID
Didn't expect a random solis perfetta mention! Really happy with mine!
I’m very interested in this entry level machine. Loved the review video, thanks!
I started with a casabrews cm5418. Had the same problem with pre-ground coffee and the pressurized basket that come with it. Buying a bottomless portafilter and a grinder completely changed my experience. For just over $150 USD, I had a nice machine, with a good steam wand and a bottomless portafilter with a double basket. Of course, you'll need a grinder too. Advanced mode for the win!
PID, made it. Really nice video. Thanks.
Thanks for the video! Really helped me making my decision :)
The Delonghi Stilosa does a fine job getting great espresso shots as well a amazing cappuccinos.
Great video, I have gagia Gran Prestige, and I have problem with botomless portafilter like you speak.
eggcellent comprehensive video. Thank you. @pid
You actually say goodbye in Bavarian! Respekt! In memory of Kaiser Franz: Geht's raus und trinkt Kaffee! ☕
Thanks a lot for the series on this machine. I got it as my 1st machine, so i dont have much experience. I was going mad with the water overflowing, did not understand why. I've ordered the opv springs now. Hope to get a decent improvement
If not,seems i've wasted my money on this machine. It's very difficult to get a decent shot with medium-light or light roasts 😢. Works much better for medium and dark roasts
Good luck!
#PID Another awesome video. Thanks, Tom.
hopefully you’ll do a follow up video on this when there are more users out there. so far i’ve read that people are switching out their shower screens to IMS ones and they fit. that combined with the 9 bar OPV mod seems to have greatly improved their experience with the machine.
I’m planning to get this hopefully in the last quarter of the year as it is still not available in our Southeast Asian region yet. fingers crossed. though I wanna say that I’ve been enjoying your videos. keep it up!
also i have a feeling that this like the Gaggia Classic Pro will have a community of its own because I read that the Gaggia Espresso is made from already existing parts from other Gaggia products, which is genius i might add.
I would not look a lot on the PID numbers, if you look at Lance Hedrick's review on the Bambino Plus, you'll see that the Bambino's temperature is identical to this one. So as long as it doesn't continuously rump up and down in temp, and the results in taste are good, it should be ok.
This has been an interesting journey! #pid
#PID Thanks again for your honest opinion! This was on my short list together with the Dedica and ECP, but I think this one will leave the list.
Next to your pointed out points I also find it still looks to plasticy.. I wonder if this machine is just a remake of the Gaggia EG2109 which does not seem to have many postive reviews although it also has an PID. Cheers Tom!
comparison video against the delonghi ECP 35.31 would be cool :)
Does anyone have any advice for the frother on this? With the plastic tip attached, like Tom I get a ton of foam too quickly and no temp in the milk. Without it the milk gets very hot but not thick and frothy at all. Just warm milk.
Waiting for Tom to make a video about swapping out the Gaggia's weak button lights with LEDs😅
I have owned a DeLonghi Stilosa for about a week now, got a $50 new open-box e-bay item. It is good, but I feel incredibly limited. I am considering an upgrade to a HiBrew H10A.
Tom, I saw a video of how they put sugar in portfilter on coffee, maybe you could make a video about it?
Isn't the standard portafilter helping to retain the heat that as produced whilst warming up? I get better shots on my Classic using the original portafilter instead of a naked one.
As you had to install a 9bar spring we can say that a extraction with a bottomless portafilter has a lower flow than with a pressurized basket.
The resistance of the Puck in a bottomless portafilter is Higher than at the pressurized basket.
For sure the Resistance depends on how fine you grind the Coffee.
Back to Advanced mode-setup with 9bar spring installed.
The pre-heated thermoblock most potententially get a shut-off by the PID-circuit at the early beginning of the extraction because the flow is lower than at a pressurized basket and overheating is the a reason for the countermeasure "shut-off" of the heating of the Thermoblock.
So quite early, as PI"D" also stand for quite a fast regulation, the heating of the thermoblock is switched on again and the I-character of the regulation is shown. The I-character is shown by the re-ramping towards the goal temperature.
You may measure the current for the thermoblock heating element....
You could very well be right there. It holds a better curve with the pressurized baskets, so I am thinking that flow is considered in the PID curve as well. That's a good idea to measure the current during the extraction - I'll have to try that. Also, you could be right that the thermoblock pre-heats, as it pauses for 3 seconds after the button is pressed, then pumps for 3 seconds, then pauses for the pre-infusion. The first 3 second pause is probably warming up the thermoblock.
@tomscoffeecorner thanks for this in depth update. I’ve gone down the route with the portafilter but have the leaking issue - shall I persevere or call it quits and get a bambino plus? Cheers!
I'd go with the BP.
Thank for this review! Surprised that gaggia has so many disapointing things, just comparable to contless nonamed chinese mashienes.. Seems like saeco-gaggia brand success came to the real end.
9:56 oh you do have a latte art here. Looks like a butt 😂
I know you basically thought this machine was rubbish but I still kind of want one. I guess it’s like when you choose to buy an Alfa Romeo. It’s built in Italy, home of the espresso and it’s more style over substance. It requires effort to get along, like adopting a rescue dog. It’s aimed at people like me with a history of making poor consumer choices based on emotion.
Haha, thanks for your comment. I really appreciate that it's made in Italy, but it certainly has flaws. But you're right, you can make any machine work for you if you try hard enough. Cheers!
On my Saeco Starbucks Barista, if you crack open the steam knob after pulling a shot, it relieves the pressure in the group head so you can remove the portafilter. Mine doesn't have a 3 way solenoid as well. Might be worth trying that on this machine
I would think that you will get coffee running through the valves and internal piping when you do that?
@@frodehokholt3944 I've never really had that problem for some reason . I'm not that well versed in the internals of my machine, but I know there's a spring activated mushroom valve between the boiler and brew group
I have an old saeco aroma, and do this as well. No issue and it’s probably 20 years old now. Just make sure to flush and keep water fresh inside at all times.
Is there a basket that holds more than just 14 grams 'double shot'?. I'm looking for a deeper one (as the 53mm diameter is a fixed factor) and can't seem to find anything. Does a bottomless portafilter hold more? I'm using the stock pressurised basket that came with the machine. Thanks.
do you think the steam mode temp hack would help with (higher) temperature stability on the non pressurised PF?
Yes, it probably would. I'm guessing like the Dedica. Will have to give it a try.
I have an Evo Pro that I use off-label in that I let it run to about a 4 ounce shot that I like to drink as a small coffee. I'm wondering if the Evolution would produce a similar brew. Anyone out there have any experience with this?
#PID thank you Tom
Hi Tom. i am using ec685 with non pressurized basket . I'm wondering whether to upgrade to gaggia classic pro or another device. Will coffee quality improve? Just brew 3-5 cups a day
The GCP has a good amount more potential than the Dedica, but it's also finicky. Just so you know.
Hi Tom, have you the temperature measurements using the solis basket in the standard portafilter? How does the temperature chart compared to the ones you produced with the dedica Annfield GCP?
Yes, temp readings were taken with Solis basket in bottomless Edesia PF. I don't remember for sure, but I think the Dedica is similarly stable/unstable, and GCP kind of starts higher and falls downwards throughout the shot, unless the heating element happens to engage.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner thank you
A question of this unit. Does the Espresso Deluxe PID have a three-way valve or just use preload with a strong spring on its "anti-drip" check valve? Do models like the Gaggia Classic have a similar anti-drip system? The reason I ask is that if one has to overcome the backpressure of the anti-drop valve and the other does not, maybe they should use OPV valves set for different pressures.
Units with spring-loaded anti-drop valves lose some pressure to overcome the spring. In other words, if it takes 2 bars to overcome the force of the spring, the pressure that actually gets to the coffee is 2 bars less than being produced at the pump. If you want the puck to see 9 bars of pressure, your OPV should be set for 11 bars.
That's an interesting theory - I'd have to try measuring the pressure at the grouphead, but I don't have an adapter for that. Whatever the case, this does NOT have a 3 way solenoid. Cheers!
For me it’s a toss up between the Carezza Deluxe and the Espresso Deluxe, it seem the Carezza seems have more clearance space🤔
Thank you very much for this very good and in deapth video!
This is what I conclude from your videos. A plastic group head has little thermal mass, so temperatures will be unstable. Also I definatly do not like the idea of clamping in a portafilter into plastic threads every day. So the Gaggia Espresso and the Dedica is out because of this.
So for me, this leaves the Delonghi ECP's, with a brass boiler on a brass group head as my first choice for a low budget espresso machine.
Have you tried temperature surfing by flushing the machine before pulling a shot? To warm up the group?
Well, by the time I did the PID measurements, I had already made like 4-5 shots, so it was plenty warmed up. The ECP by the way has a SS boiler, and an aluminum group head.
The difference between the Group temperature and consequently - the portafilter temperature on ThermoBlock based mashines (dedica) and boiler based ones (stilosa, ecp) is huge, imho. That is why boiler mashines extract more from your coffee - more sweetness, more balance, reachness, more other notes.
Agreed!@@alexandermashkin2395
Hi Tom, Is there a compatible filter holder on Amazon USA for this machine?
I am from Uruguay and it is very difficult for me to get accessories from Europe.
Thank you very much and continue with your excellent reviews
Did you buy this machine in Uruguay? I don't think there's any accessories in the USA, as this machine is not being sold there.
Thanks!@@TomsCoffeeCorner
It’s sold by whole latte love now, but no news on an unpressurized portafilter offering just yet.
Hi Tom! What shower screen size should I been looking for if I want to change the stock one?
I bought one from a company in Ireland, but I haven't gotten around to installing it yet...hope to do that soon.
Is there a link to the basket you mentioned?
What about the original portafilter with a different basket?
It works fine, but I'd also suggest the 9 bar spring with that setup, because without it, it often squirted out of the brew group for me. I also don't like the OEM PF that much, since you can't see the extraction.
Vzery good video Tom, do you have one for the Gaggia Evo?
Do you mean Gaggia Espresso Evoluzione? It should be the same, just with a different trip tray I think.
We want Gaggia Classic Pro with PID and Timer . We call it EVO+
Its not a bad machine for the price I've never used the panerello other once just sits I the draw
Hey Tom great video and thank you. Do you think its also possible to mod the shower screen?
I believe so - I have ordered one, and will be trying it out soon.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner What diameter is the replacement? Is there an IMS shower?
Have you experimented with the replacement shower screen?@@TomsCoffeeCorner
Hello Tom, Who is your reduced diameter portafilter basket by?
I purchased the Edesia 53mm bottomless portafilter upon your earlier video as my reference. My home barista espresso journey began with capillary action and major confusion 😂 . Thanks for the clarity. After ongoing experiments: 2mm mesh puck screen provides more even resistance than a flat disk perforated puck screen with the Edesia bottomless. Results may vary and as you suggest grind settings are key. #PID
I provided Edesia with feedback to mill out their subsequent batches of these. I hope they do that. The other basket I have is a leftover from the Solis Perfetta Plus.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I have the same problem with the Edesia 53mm bottomless portafiler.
And I can't find anywhere to buy the right 53mm basket. But as I understood it, it fits from Solis Perfetta Plus and if I'm not mistaken it is this one?
Solis IMS Perfetta Filter Basket 14-16 g
Hi Tom!
I have an issue with the extraction of this machine and wonder if you possible could help me out, please.
I used the same amount of coffee and poured the same amount of liquid as your first try in this video. I used fresh beans with the finest grind the grinder allowed me to make (which is a really fine powder) and I pressed the tamper the hardest I could using the included tamper (which is btw too small for both the single and double filter), I only got an extraction time of 6 seconds! Which is waaay too fast. Although I tried to copy you completely, I don't get a good extraction time and I am really not sure what I am doing wrong or how to improve the extraction time.
Thanks in advance if you have time to help :D
I am betting that you're not grinding fine enough. What kind of grinder are you using? You also need freshly roasted beans. Good luck!
Would the non pressurised basket fit into the included portafilter and be a good combination for this machine as the included portafilter as better temperature stability? #PID
It does fit, but I really prefer using a bottomless, and the original has the flaw that the baskets fall out when knocking the spent puck. Also, plastic. Cheers!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner thanks again
With the mods made, this would be roughly the same price as a Flair Classic with a gauge, or not too far away from a Cafelat Robot. Which would you recommend, thinking of 1, the money spent, and 2, the best possible shot? #pid
Lever machines are fun, but I don't like that you have to pre-heat the chambers. I have difficulties getting shots hot enough. So, I'd always recommend a machine with a heater in it, myself.
#PID I've got this machine, with the bottomless portafilter, but no spring mod - and have been impressed so far. I've only had one instance where I got capillary action, otherwise it's been absolutely solid. It does run fast and I do get cratering but I've been using a mesh screen to mitigate that, so I'd be interested in trying it with a different spring. Overall, for ~200 quid including new portafilter, I'm struggling to feel anything negative about my purchase(s).
Also, with the steam wand I've had the intense splash once - the first time I did it lol. That was a shock. The rest of the time I purge it briefly just before use and it doesn't do that anymore, producing lovely results - purging it first doesn't seem to have a negative impact on the steaming for me, but I'm not the best (or even a good) latte artist so maybe I'm missing something.
Great review, very in depth and useful to see the issues people are having with it, will be interested in watching your video implementing the new spring!
I also have this machine, so far so good 👍...
As an entry level machine this one seems ok. #pid
I am considering this as an upgrade to a ROK presso..
Is this machine grind fussy when using a large single wall basket in advanced mode?
Yes, it is. I find it very difficult, because it’s hard to keep the porta filter sealed against the brew group. I would recommend a different machine to be honest.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Fair enough, thanks.
Is it actually OK do use a metal portafilter in the plastic machine?
Yes, most brew groups with a thermoblock are plastic. But the PFs are generally metal.
#pid I was about to order this over Dedica and ECP… and now I’ve watched this video. There’s a little choice in my market within this price tag, and as a beginner who just fancies a good double espresso in the morning and a flat white in the evening I’m now even more confused… do you recommend more this or Dedica, or ECP? I know it may seem stupid but for me ECP looks like the hardest one to use? For my whole life so far I’ve used only drip machines:)
You could schedule an advisory meeting via Teams if you like, via my website (just hit the contact button). It's hard to write everything here, regarding ergonomics. Also, your market plays a large role. Feel free to contact me there. Best, Tom
Thank you Tom, decisions are easier when you have a partner… 'PAF' has been a decider here and I ultimately opted for Dedica. Having watched your videos about it I’m really exicted. I’m just wondering if it’s worth to start modding (portafilter, basket etc.) with such cheap grinder as DeLonghi KG89? I was pretty satisfied with the results with drip machine, but I see that really good grinders start at at least ~200 euro
I cant find the spring link in the description
I added them now. Cheers!
#PID Thanks for your dogged persistence in testing this, it's really an eye-opener. I was thinking of getting this machine for my daughter, who has no experience making espresso, but it appears that you need experience to get the best out of it. Kinda paradoxical. Still, she only has my old Baratza Encore grinder which, although I jimmied it to get a slightly finer grind, is essentially a non-espresso device. I suppose it would be OK with just the standard pressurized basket... That dance you have to do with the steam wand though, is a bit off-putting.
Re your bottomless woes (sounds like the Pit of Despond), I suppose if confronted with them Gaggia would reply that they can't allow for non-Gaggia accessories, which would be fair enough. All the same, other machines accommodate to 3rd-party PF's...
Anyway, this machine doesn't appear to be carried by French dealers yet so I reckon I'll mull it over a bit longer, or order from over the border in Germany - if that's where yours came from.
Cheers!
I bought mine off of eBay.de, but I think it might have come from Italy. I ordered a new shower screen too. I think with the combination of the shower screen and OPV, it's decent. But I wouldn't put it over the Dedica, and that's the silly thing. Gaggia should have looked at the Dedica and improved upon it.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner It's available on eBay here too, but I'd rather wait and get it from a dealer, if I get it at all - better for service etc. Waiting might also mean that Gaggia produce an improved model for sale outside Italy. Here's hoping...
@Tom's Coffee Corner Which is the best value SuperAutomatic coffee machine so far ?
That depends on the country. Which market are you in?
@@TomsCoffeeCorner I'm in Romania.
Ok, I don't know the market there, but I am guessing the Delonghi Magnifica Evo.@@DanielNistrean
What if, you use the non presurized basket in the 2 hole portafilter?
It works too. But I like using the bottomless.
I use a bottomless basket with this machines. no issues👍
Which one would you buy - the Delonghi Dedica or this one?
Dedica.
I changed the shower screen, that was the first thing I did when I bought the machine. The stock one was terrible.
Where’d you find one?
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Unfortunately i cant send you a link, bc RUclips is blocking my comment
@@TomsCoffeeCorner
Its 52mm shower screen and it costs 7€
@@jabalajabolindest4852Thanks! Amazon, AliExpress, etc…?
@@TomsCoffeeCorner "blue star coffee" is the name of the site. Its online shop in Ireland. The exact model of the shower screen is Mc 752-4
Please share where did you buy the steam wand.
All I did was pull off the panarello. Cheers!
@@TomsCoffeeCorner Oh yes, now I see it. Thanks bro
i think you're right on the money with using pre ground for this and these type of machines
this machine is a crappy version of a dedica is my of crude assessment
Agreed, Justin. I think this machine was really designed for pressurized baskets only. Not sure why they’d bother with a PID on such an entry level machine. Especially since Tom’s testing seems to show it is well implemented. Unless the PID, as implemented, cheaply solved some other temperature issue inherent to the design.
@@coreycannon4511 I think if anything the pid saves energy.
opposed to the boiler just boiling and stopping with a thermostat
Is this Modell the Same as eg2109?
Yes!
9:35 Lance only was able to get the milk froth that way by taking out the bubbly froth with a spoon in the pitcher while leaving the fine froth in there.
There seems to be no good way to steam with a panerello, otherwise machines targeted at enthusiasts would have it I assume.
Interesting, thanks for that!
#PID😺
In this video you have put the 9 bar spring or not yet?
Yes, I had put it in for this video. Cheers!
Much better coffee ...now I have finally fitted the 9 bar spring .
#pid thx
I think I'd rather go with the De'Longhi ECP series for less. #PID
I think the reason your commenting viewers (I would guess they’d mostly be subscribers) don’t want you using pre-ground coffee, is that these viewers/subscribers are mostly coffee hobbyists at one level or another and aren’t interested in pre-ground, and/or commodity coffee. But we’re still interested in entry level machines for one reason or another. For that see our comments from your prior “Channel Direction” video.
RUclips videos have two kinds of viewers: the subscriber and the non-subscriber. I know, earth shattering revelation. But I think that I can accurately say (vaguely) who these people are. The typical subscriber of your channel is someone very interested in coffee. Either a full on hobbyist, or just getting started; dipping a toe in. The non-subscriber is a casual viewer who got sent to this video while searching vaguely for something about espresso, Gaggia, this machine, or whatever. Who knows how algorithms REALLY think. The hobbyist (or at least the entry level espresso hobbyist) is interested in this machine. We want to know what it can and cannot do, is it for us and if so, how can we get the best out of it. An advanced hobbyist (or at least someone who can afford really high-end gear) might be interested in it as a gift or recommendation for a beginner friend or family member. We subscribers either have grinders or at least know they’re the way to go and may want this machine (or not) as a starter to either go with the grinder(s) we have, or are planning on upgrading our ability to get more out of a machine like this by eventually getting a grinder to use with it.
I, for example, was the non-subscriber type two years ago, when I got a moka pot for Christmas (which I thought was a cheap way to make espresso) and found myself searching RUclips to figure out how to use it. I already had a Breville 450XL, which I think is a rebadged Wilfa Svart. Through the videos (mostly James Hoffman), I discovered specifically coffee, and within 3-5 months I was experimenting with specialty coffees, found I loved high acidity, light roasts and spent, over the next year, around $1000CAD on an Aeropress, J-MAX hand grinder, nicer cups, pitchers, milk frothers, tools, etc, etc, etc. I built a nice little coffee bar in a relatively out of the way corner of my dining area. I don’t have an espresso machine now. But some day, maybe. And that’s why I watch and have subscribed. I suspect that I’m not atypical. #PID. Ps, keep up the good work.
Hi Corey. Part of the reason I enjoy so much running this youtube channel, is to read comments like this. It's nice to know who's watching my videos, and learn the stories behind your guys' journeys. I also learn a lot through the comments. So thanks for your thoughtful analysis. You could very well be right with the subscriber and non-subscriber audiences. They are also always in a little flux, I think.
I might explore more AeroPress/pourover stuff in the future, but espresso is my weakness, and I'm glad you're along for the ride, even if you don't have an espresso machine currently.
Wishing you a great day! Tom
Just bought one, now ive watched this and i kinda regret it.
Currently using aldi nespresso pods lol.
Really had high hopes for this one :| #pid
Couple of minutes ago i saw a video of yours and it need payment subscription to see it. I tried to support you as much as i could in past times. I watched your videos, i liked your videos and subscribed your channel. But after saw that thing now i unsubscribed from your channel. Thanks for your videos that i watched in past and i wish you a good life...
Ah, I see what you mean. You don't have to pay. It's just that you can be a member and get early access to videos. But you don't need to. Cheers!
#pid. ... I bought this machine on recommendation from another youtube reviewer, tbh I'm just getting into coffee making , but I am disappointed I was expecting something better, I wish I had spent more on another brand .
It's decent with the spring mod, but I find the Delonghi ECP 3420 or 35.31 trumps this one.
@@TomsCoffeeCornerFyi.. the edesia bottomless basket fits the supplied Gaggia portafilter..
Looking forward to the spring mod video @@TomsCoffeeCorner
#PID
#PID this machine vs the ECP3420... seems like no contest
I'll be honest, the GED is giving me issues with usability. Leaks between the PF and gasket. It's a really cheap machine. I'd take the ECP over it.
Thinking of buying this machine or whichever of it's siblings are cheapest. Then spending an extra £30 on a 9 bar spring, Edesia basket and 33.3m screen.
Have you tried the Edesia basket in the Gaggia portafilter or will I need an Edesia portafilter too?
You can do the Edesia basket in the Gaggia PF, but it falls out while knocking the puck out. Cheers!
I’ve never had an expresso machine and i think that I rather pay a little more money instead upgrade it with extra pieces
Well, after watching this detailed review, it seems like the Delonghi Dedica might be a better option compared to this machine. The Gaggia Espresso Deluxe falls short in terms of mod possibilities. The plastic construction of the portafilter doesn't quite appeal, especially when compared to the versatility offered by other options like the Dedica. Additionally, the low light button is somewhat disappointing. It makes you wonder how such design choices get approval. #PID
Not even dedica but also delonghi stilosa and ecp which have a boiler, good assembly Quality and uncomparable temperature stability,
they are easily customizable and bring you good coffee drinks for a ridiculous price.
I'd go for the ECP 3420 or ECP 35.31. But yes, the Dedica is also a better design than this Gaggia, imho. The only thing this Gaggia does better than the Dedica is that it's easier to open up, and the OPV spring can be replaced.
my hardly used Gaggia espresso evo machine is forsale if anyone interested?
The dedica blows this out of the waters for 200 bucks
#PID even your worst latte art is better than mine.🤣
Haha, if you say so. It's quite inconsistent for me. Gotta keep practicing!
No, this is not worth it. The time & frustration for a sub par shot. The pressurized shots look thin. Too much work. Tom can you find the best auto espresso maker where you only have to drop the grinded coffee in the hole and it does the rest. I had this Magic Saeco. It wasn't perfect but I only had to push the button and I got a decent shot. I have the cheap delonghi 680 and 685. I'm tired of grinding, making a mess, the shot fails. The water cannot come out of the portafiller. Then I adjust the grind and may work, sometimes bitter. It is so much work. I'm thinking of going back to automation. Thanks for the videos! I was just thinking how you Make it look so easy. It was good to see you have a video where you struggled just like the rest of us.😅
If you’ve got the money, the Sage/Breville Barista Touch Impress. From all the reviews I’ve seen, it’s probably the best of Super Automatic convenience with really high quality espresso. But they’re pricey. $2200CAD regular. But with patience they’re regularly on sale for about $500CAD off. Your local price, will of course vary.
I also have a dedica and also a ECP series. Both are simple to get decent shots with the right grinder
Hell, I even got okay results with a 45eur Delonghi KG79 shitgrinder
I would suggest Toms playlist of the dedica. It's a simple machine
Hi there! If you just want it easy and no mess, the Dinamica Plus is hard to beat, and makes actually really good drinks. Any portafilter machine is going to require a good amount of work, and a bit of a mess - it's just inherent to the design. I guess the best is maybe the Breville Barista Express Impress with integrated tamper. That makes the least mess. But still it's more work than a SA.
I wouldn't purchase this machine or any other similarly priced machine solely because they do not have a 3 way solenoid valve
Ugh fine i'll just get a bambino...
That would be a better choice.
I was stupid enough to buy this machine... It actually burns the coffee produces no crema at all
My old cheap china machine was atleast 3 times better for 1 3rd of the price!!
Yes, I’ve had to put quite the effort in to get it to extract ok with advanced mode.
@@TomsCoffeeCorner after this fiasco i followed your advice, bought the ecp 35.31 with some upgrades, been enjoying a whole new world of flavor ever since 👌
Awesome! Happy to hear it :)@@hcr2ligna83
It seems as if you went out of your way to sabotage this review, when steaming you continue to let the small jug overflow and watch it do that.
When you zero the scale it's with the small jug, then you measure it with the large jug 🧐.
When you put it into advanced mode you already know the large jug is better for you but you go back to the small jug. It seems you wasn't advanced to use it in that mode, slowing down the video to 0.25x you can see you lower the milk allowing it to spray out.
Even the shower screen puck image you show at the start and at the end are different, one has a clear spot in the middle and the last one doesn't.
This machine is poorly engineered, constructed from much cheaper materials, gives an inferior espresso, and is substantially more expensive, than the ECP 3420 or ECP 3630 models from Delonghi. I don’t quite understand what Gaggia was thinking when they put this out. There isn’t even a comparison. This is a machine that can do nothing for the company but sully their good name and they should really pull it off the shelves immediately.
It was a head scratcher for me too, honestly.
I guess in the UK this is at a similar price... It is Made in Italy which while might not mean much, I still rather have it than a Made in China one. Often items made in China (I guess margins allow it) have more metal etc... but nonetheless the fact that is made in Europe is worth it for me vs. Sage or Delonghis lower end.
This needs a temp & pressure gauge :)
#PID
#PID
#PID