Yeah, it turns out there were lots of people that wanted this! But it was still a risk for GW. If the game keeps selling it will get more support like Horus Heresy did 👍🏼
I see it as Tomb Kings & Bretonnians first quarter. Orcs&Goblins and Dwarfs quarter two. So, I’m thinking the next two will show up around June - July and then two more in September/October. Is it successful? Depends on your definition. Certainly it is more popular than GW thought. Successful compared to expectations? Seems so.
The only thing holding TOW back is GW's production capacity. Nearly everything is sold out a few days after release. This could be because they completely underestimated the demand OR they just couldn't make anymore without sacrificing 40K and AOS sales which are the bread and butter. Personally I'm just glad to have all the fun old metal minis back!
ditto on the "balance patches are bad" position. IMO that constant tweaking is more about driving sales than balance(that's certainly what constant "balancing" is about in competitive video games, which is where I think GW is really looking for inspiration these days), and it seriously undermines the tactical(and, as you say, RP) elements of the game.
Yes! I couldn’t agree more. The fact old world is not a ‘main’ game means it’s not expected to make oodles of cash like 40k and AoS, hence the lack of tinkering. Blissful 😁
I think you're right. It looks to me like its bimonthly releases of the armies with the minis being released in waves each month. My guess is either because they can't meet production and need to space it out, or they're trying to keep the hype going by having something new each month. As for scope increase, you're right, that could mean anything. It's possible that the initial plan of Kislev and Cathey got rolled back by corporate (it's been heavily implied in house that GW management didn’t have confidence in this and kept rolling things back) but this scope increase could just be putting them back on the table again (and norsca, that's been heavily implied in the Rule book)
I personally reckon they can’t meet production. I doubt they would have wanted to invest heavily into something they couldn’t be sure would work! Hopefully going forward they get enough old world sales to make it worth their while Norsca could be interesting!!!
I think the fact that the scope has changed means that we could very well receive some continued support by way of a balance patch. If they can do it for 40K they can do it for other games. Will we see it soon, probably not, it's likely all they can do to get the product out the door. They need to follow that money and I don't blame them. Balance isn't affecting their potential profits. Their inability to bring product online quick enough is. The longer they take, more people are will come online with 3D printing eating into their potential market share. They definitely underestimated the demand. Once all the primary factions and models are released then perhaps we'll see something like a balance update. If it is to come I wouldn't expect it for a couple years.
It could even be the case by then that instead of a balance patch it’s v2! That’s a good way of doing a new edition in my opinion. Not a root and branch reform, just a gentle evolution to fix the less than optimal in the edition before 😁
They need to hurry up and reprint the main books. Initially I wasn't going to bother as I've got 6th but my interest has been piqued. However, if they can't get the main books back on shelves then what interest I have will disappear. As for models I'll probably go 3rd party anyway to cut costs. The fact that some armies are legacy doesn't bother me at all. They've chosen a particular time in the story of the old world and that's cool. As I play warhammer fantasy roleplay I'm keen to see different stories. If they don't get they're finger out soon then I'll look elsewhere.
I think you are a prime example of what I have been worried about since the start of the old world adventure. If they don’t capitalise fast it could die - I feel that if it’s been more of a success than they anticipated at the start hopefully a big enough group of people have invested that it is now self supporting, but I would wager there are many more folks out there wishing they could buy in, can’t, and will lose interest
If only they could get things restocked! I'm afraid they're losing out on a lot of customers. I still haven't been able to order the rulebooks anywhere other than Ebay, which I stay away from as to not support the scalpers. But I wonder what the future holds in the long run with regards to new and old factions. I for one would love to see them do Araby and Border Princes someday!
Yeah agreed. The not having rulebooks is unforgivable - you can proxy minis, you can use AoS minis, you can use old minis - but those rules are the rules. Seeing that kind of love for the game would be the dream!!!
we know they arnt going to do the old races BUT we might get some of the old ones back, fishmen, fimir, sea elves, nippon, cathay kislev, biorder princes estilia tilia araby things like that and keep the legends legends as trhey are in AOS
@@TabletopSaga thats more due to lack pof sales, with the civil war going on between specialist games and the core warthammer lot. i think they gave up the beastmen as a sort of we will give you this, but you cant have this....
@TabletopSaga I think they will as you say this game is marketed on and for nostalgia and the people playing it are now older gamers Most the gamer si played against when I played this are now dead. 40k was always the younger people. But I am and was an old soul. I could see them doing something similar I'd like to see gnomes back too lol not just in bloodbowl
Honestly it really depends if they will pull their head out of their arse and release the "legacy" factions in the long run. The statement they nearly half of the classic armies won't be getting attention was really a dumb move on their part sapping out a lot of ethusiams and the momentum from the game.
Yeah the legacy factions being dumped stings, but frankly as far as I’m concerned they are still in the game and I think that’s how most see it. My hunch is that if the game continues to be a success we will see those factions come back into the fold at some point!
Is there any good tier rating between the different fractions, and an explenation of how you probably will end up playing (because of strengths and weaknesses) if you play that fraction? I am curious about the game but do not want to spend a fortune, and spend weeks and weeks of time, to get an army that I will end up not enjoy playing.
I’m unaware of a tier rating, sorry - it’s not something I’m interested in. If you want to choose an army based on narrative or play style then I can certainly help! I would recommend that approach - you are going to have to keep enough enthusiasm to paint them all after all 😁 I’ve been thinking about doing a video about how to choose an army on that basis if you think that would be helpful?
@@TabletopSaga It would be helpful. Not many videos aimed at new players trying to pick a fraction. If you pick "correct" and like to play with the army, chanses are high new players will continue. But without information it feels like russian roulette. If one pick wrong, gets destroyed when trying to play and not having any fun, that person is not likely to get a second army to try play with instead.
No worries, I’ll try and get that in the video lineup! In the meantime I can recommend the square based podcast faction overviews. They haven’t covered all of the factions yet but the ones that have done are comprehensive!
It'll be successful until people realize that it will not be supported in the way they hope. Making armies "legacy" and the outrageous prices for decades old models is just the start. GW don't know how to manage their business/products properly and consistently over promise and under deliver. They've shown that AoS is going to be their priority and TOW is the bone they threw to old fantasy players to scrape some cash from them. Honestly, 3D printing to going to kill them in the next 5-10 years, and I won't be sad when it happens.
I’m going to have to push back a bit there - I definitely think GW know their business model. They are wildly successful. I also think that have diversified so much that basically not much can kill them at this point, and certainly not 3d printing. They’ll find a way to monetise that because they always do 😂 I’m also glad ToW isn’t the main system. Let AoS get the constant tinkering and ‘meta’ adjustments. We’ve got a nice narrative system that’s going to last us ages. I do agree the prices are high though, and to have shortages of them is poor.
@@TabletopSagaGW isn't wildly successful. It's dying. A franchise always diversifies it's attention at the end of its life span and the consumer has to suffer. That's the reason for high prices for decade old models and stock availability problems. They need to get every penny that they can get until it's over. The price rises are only for looking even more profitable every year for the shareholdera and they won't stop till every consumer is outpriced. And with ever growing prices the new blood will stop appearing. They have already noticed that you don't need to keep an active playerbase as long as people buy the new edition boxset. They dropped 4 new editions/game systems in less than a year. Every normal company would know that they can't keep up with product at that speed. Gw knows too. They just need these boxsets because they are insanely profitable. And 3D printing will be their end. I can print their models for a fraction of their prices. And they are 5 years behind jumping on that train. I have 300 gigs of 3d models of their products and I am not the only one. I wish they would actually start loosing money instead of artificially increasing their profits. With a few adjustments in pricing and community feedbacks and transparency they could turn their whole business around. I would give everything for a GW that actually cares about it's consumer and only wants to see them happy. Most companies nowadays dont understand that a happy customer will drop money into their accounts forever. I am only still in this hobby because of the lore and boi are they failing in recent times. Siege of terra is unbearable
@@necrometicsonofthelion I wouldn't say GW is dying, but they're definitely sitting on a knife's edge right now. Their profits are the highest they've ever been, but their sales have started to split. The lion's share of GW's long-running problem is that their focus is almost exclusively on the shareholders and not the consumers, which leads them to make short-term decisions that squander long-term opportunities. I've said it plenty of times, but I firmly believe that another $10-$20 price hike will crash GW's market. When a kit for 10 base infantry reaches about the $100 mark - something we are dangerously close to now - your average hobbyist, or would-be hobbyist, will either massively reduce their consumption or forgo it entirely.
This may be a win for GW, but for how long? They have major stock shortages forcing people to shop Ebay and Etsy. Speaking of Etsy - a lot of sculpts for sale there is better detailed and cheaper than GW sculpts - which will be another hurtle that GW will have to face.
The stock shortages are damning. I won’t disagree. I wonder the extent to which they will affect GW though. EBay prices are outrageous and many people still like to have the ‘official’ games workshop minis, so I think many will hold on. It’s a poor state of affairs however, and is certainly hurting old world players
@@TabletopSaga yes, eBay prices are insane for Warhammer items. But Etsy is fine, for me, I have built a Wood Elf army and filled my Brettonian army with stuff that did not come in the starter box. The scale and detail does not detract and mixes well together with GW miniatures. Plus it is way cheaper, for now.
I think alternative sculpts are becoming more popular but I do wonder how many people want only the GW minis these days? I still think it’s a lot. But if you are happy with alternatives then more power to you! It’s certainly a more cost effective way of doubt it 👍🏼
Haha possibly! I think the crucial difference is that warhammer as a main system wasn’t selling enough. As a specialist game it doesn’t need to sell as much, so can make the profit they wanted for it much more easily. Which as I’ve said before I consider to be a good thing! Age of Sigmar is in its fourth edition already - I’ll be much happier if old world remains a nice settled game for a fair few years 👍🏼
id like to see amonster book with monsters for all races that you can add, id also like to see dogs of war, and warhamer seige back i really ejoyed seige games
Warhammer siege was great! That would be something they could easily bring back 😁 As for Dogs of War we agree, and in an earlier video (the very first tabletop saga video if I recall correctly!) we talk about using Universal Special Rules to recreate them 😁
@@TabletopSaga you see my army is a barrak Varr dwarf army, the purple siler dwarves in the lore, and in the lore they have a massive use of mercenaries in their armies so that would be brilliant for the lore of my army.
@@TabletopSaga I'd rather have all the factions that werent included, than Border Princes, Kislev, Estalia and so on rather than Cathay, but I think it's a good call to have limited factions overall, limit the bloat, better balance, more releases for everyone instead of slow drips and so on
That’s a good choice. I’ve been amassing vampire counts units as and when I find them with the aim of getting an army of them on the table one day. We can hope they’ll be added soon! I have heard rumours…
Who knew giving people what they want can work ? That’s a real mystery solved there.
Yeah, it turns out there were lots of people that wanted this! But it was still a risk for GW. If the game keeps selling it will get more support like Horus Heresy did 👍🏼
I see it as Tomb Kings & Bretonnians first quarter. Orcs&Goblins and Dwarfs quarter two. So, I’m thinking the next two will show up around June - July and then two more in September/October. Is it successful? Depends on your definition. Certainly it is more popular than GW thought. Successful compared to expectations? Seems so.
I think that’s a fair release schedule! It would be great to get the armies all out this year 😁
The only thing holding TOW back is GW's production capacity. Nearly everything is sold out a few days after release. This could be because they completely underestimated the demand OR they just couldn't make anymore without sacrificing 40K and AOS sales which are the bread and butter. Personally I'm just glad to have all the fun old metal minis back!
Yep. As much as it sucks you have the right attitude. Cling on to how great it is to have the proper old minis again! 😁
ditto on the "balance patches are bad" position. IMO that constant tweaking is more about driving sales than balance(that's certainly what constant "balancing" is about in competitive video games, which is where I think GW is really looking for inspiration these days), and it seriously undermines the tactical(and, as you say, RP) elements of the game.
Yes! I couldn’t agree more. The fact old world is not a ‘main’ game means it’s not expected to make oodles of cash like 40k and AoS, hence the lack of tinkering. Blissful 😁
It was Sold out 2 hours into the release date and since then it’s been labeled at “Temporarily unavailable” 😂😂😂
I think you're right. It looks to me like its bimonthly releases of the armies with the minis being released in waves each month. My guess is either because they can't meet production and need to space it out, or they're trying to keep the hype going by having something new each month.
As for scope increase, you're right, that could mean anything. It's possible that the initial plan of Kislev and Cathey got rolled back by corporate (it's been heavily implied in house that GW management didn’t have confidence in this and kept rolling things back) but this scope increase could just be putting them back on the table again (and norsca, that's been heavily implied in the Rule book)
I personally reckon they can’t meet production. I doubt they would have wanted to invest heavily into something they couldn’t be sure would work! Hopefully going forward they get enough old world sales to make it worth their while
Norsca could be interesting!!!
@TabletopSaga with all the out of stocks I think you're right.
Here’s hoping they fix it 😬🤞🏻
I think the fact that the scope has changed means that we could very well receive some continued support by way of a balance patch. If they can do it for 40K they can do it for other games. Will we see it soon, probably not, it's likely all they can do to get the product out the door. They need to follow that money and I don't blame them. Balance isn't affecting their potential profits. Their inability to bring product online quick enough is. The longer they take, more people are will come online with 3D printing eating into their potential market share. They definitely underestimated the demand.
Once all the primary factions and models are released then perhaps we'll see something like a balance update. If it is to come I wouldn't expect it for a couple years.
It could even be the case by then that instead of a balance patch it’s v2! That’s a good way of doing a new edition in my opinion. Not a root and branch reform, just a gentle evolution to fix the less than optimal in the edition before 😁
They need to hurry up and reprint the main books. Initially I wasn't going to bother as I've got 6th but my interest has been piqued. However, if they can't get the main books back on shelves then what interest I have will disappear. As for models I'll probably go 3rd party anyway to cut costs. The fact that some armies are legacy doesn't bother me at all. They've chosen a particular time in the story of the old world and that's cool. As I play warhammer fantasy roleplay I'm keen to see different stories. If they don't get they're finger out soon then I'll look elsewhere.
I think you are a prime example of what I have been worried about since the start of the old world adventure. If they don’t capitalise fast it could die - I feel that if it’s been more of a success than they anticipated at the start hopefully a big enough group of people have invested that it is now self supporting, but I would wager there are many more folks out there wishing they could buy in, can’t, and will lose interest
GW needs to release ALL the Armies and stop being Diks about it 😂😂😂 Vampire Counts, Skaven and the rest (and I don’t even have any of those Armies)
I wouldn't mind another FAQ on a few bits of the game rules. But I am happy with it being a narrative focussed game.
Yeah FAQs are a reasonable expectation I think, but constant rules tweaks and balance patches not so much! 😁
If only they could get things restocked! I'm afraid they're losing out on a lot of customers. I still haven't been able to order the rulebooks anywhere other than Ebay, which I stay away from as to not support the scalpers.
But I wonder what the future holds in the long run with regards to new and old factions. I for one would love to see them do Araby and Border Princes someday!
Yeah agreed. The not having rulebooks is unforgivable - you can proxy minis, you can use AoS minis, you can use old minis - but those rules are the rules.
Seeing that kind of love for the game would be the dream!!!
The prices still scare me but Im glad its doing well
I won’t disagree with you there! It always sends shudders down my spine when I hit that order button 🥴
@@TabletopSaga Yeah.might have to old off the orcs and goblins for a little while longer but the pull is strong
I’m the same with the dwarfs! And I won’t be able to hold off because I don’t have enough willpower 🥴
The prices are actually more reasonable than I expected.
I’m glad! You can buy happy 😁 I wish I could say the same 🥴 though I do agree they could be worse!!!
we know they arnt going to do the old races BUT we might get some of the old ones back, fishmen, fimir, sea elves, nippon, cathay kislev, biorder princes estilia tilia araby things like that and keep the legends legends as trhey are in AOS
That could be what they do for sure. Though beastmen coming over from AoS is very interesting 🧐
@@TabletopSaga thats more due to lack pof sales, with the civil war going on between specialist games and the core warthammer lot. i think they gave up the beastmen as a sort of we will give you this, but you cant have this....
@@TabletopSaga there are so many races that are mentioned in warhammer but other than a few models never expanded on
Do you think they’ll do that though? For a game that trades on nostalgia? Maybe one day!
@TabletopSaga I think they will as you say this game is marketed on and for nostalgia and the people playing it are now older gamers
Most the gamer si played against when I played this are now dead. 40k was always the younger people. But I am and was an old soul. I could see them doing something similar I'd like to see gnomes back too lol not just in bloodbowl
Honestly it really depends if they will pull their head out of their arse and release the "legacy" factions in the long run. The statement they nearly half of the classic armies won't be getting attention was really a dumb move on their part sapping out a lot of ethusiams and the momentum from the game.
Yeah the legacy factions being dumped stings, but frankly as far as I’m concerned they are still in the game and I think that’s how most see it. My hunch is that if the game continues to be a success we will see those factions come back into the fold at some point!
Is there any good tier rating between the different fractions, and an explenation of how you probably will end up playing (because of strengths and weaknesses) if you play that fraction? I am curious about the game but do not want to spend a fortune, and spend weeks and weeks of time, to get an army that I will end up not enjoy playing.
I’m unaware of a tier rating, sorry - it’s not something I’m interested in. If you want to choose an army based on narrative or play style then I can certainly help! I would recommend that approach - you are going to have to keep enough enthusiasm to paint them all after all 😁 I’ve been thinking about doing a video about how to choose an army on that basis if you think that would be helpful?
@@TabletopSaga It would be helpful. Not many videos aimed at new players trying to pick a fraction. If you pick "correct" and like to play with the army, chanses are high new players will continue. But without information it feels like russian roulette. If one pick wrong, gets destroyed when trying to play and not having any fun, that person is not likely to get a second army to try play with instead.
No worries, I’ll try and get that in the video lineup! In the meantime I can recommend the square based podcast faction overviews. They haven’t covered all of the factions yet but the ones that have done are comprehensive!
It'll be successful until people realize that it will not be supported in the way they hope. Making armies "legacy" and the outrageous prices for decades old models is just the start. GW don't know how to manage their business/products properly and consistently over promise and under deliver. They've shown that AoS is going to be their priority and TOW is the bone they threw to old fantasy players to scrape some cash from them. Honestly, 3D printing to going to kill them in the next 5-10 years, and I won't be sad when it happens.
I’m going to have to push back a bit there - I definitely think GW know their business model. They are wildly successful. I also think that have diversified so much that basically not much can kill them at this point, and certainly not 3d printing. They’ll find a way to monetise that because they always do 😂
I’m also glad ToW isn’t the main system. Let AoS get the constant tinkering and ‘meta’ adjustments. We’ve got a nice narrative system that’s going to last us ages.
I do agree the prices are high though, and to have shortages of them is poor.
@@TabletopSagaGW isn't wildly successful. It's dying. A franchise always diversifies it's attention at the end of its life span and the consumer has to suffer. That's the reason for high prices for decade old models and stock availability problems. They need to get every penny that they can get until it's over. The price rises are only for looking even more profitable every year for the shareholdera and they won't stop till every consumer is outpriced. And with ever growing prices the new blood will stop appearing.
They have already noticed that you don't need to keep an active playerbase as long as people buy the new edition boxset. They dropped 4 new editions/game systems in less than a year. Every normal company would know that they can't keep up with product at that speed. Gw knows too. They just need these boxsets because they are insanely profitable.
And 3D printing will be their end. I can print their models for a fraction of their prices.
And they are 5 years behind jumping on that train. I have 300 gigs of 3d models of their products and I am not the only one.
I wish they would actually start loosing money instead of artificially increasing their profits.
With a few adjustments in pricing and community feedbacks and transparency they could turn their whole business around. I would give everything for a GW that actually cares about it's consumer and only wants to see them happy.
Most companies nowadays dont understand that a happy customer will drop money into their accounts forever. I am only still in this hobby because of the lore and boi are they failing in recent times. Siege of terra is unbearable
@@necrometicsonofthelion I wouldn't say GW is dying, but they're definitely sitting on a knife's edge right now. Their profits are the highest they've ever been, but their sales have started to split. The lion's share of GW's long-running problem is that their focus is almost exclusively on the shareholders and not the consumers, which leads them to make short-term decisions that squander long-term opportunities.
I've said it plenty of times, but I firmly believe that another $10-$20 price hike will crash GW's market. When a kit for 10 base infantry reaches about the $100 mark - something we are dangerously close to now - your average hobbyist, or would-be hobbyist, will either massively reduce their consumption or forgo it entirely.
This may be a win for GW, but for how long? They have major stock shortages forcing people to shop Ebay and Etsy.
Speaking of Etsy - a lot of sculpts for sale there is better detailed and cheaper than GW sculpts - which will be another hurtle that GW will have to face.
The stock shortages are damning. I won’t disagree. I wonder the extent to which they will affect GW though. EBay prices are outrageous and many people still like to have the ‘official’ games workshop minis, so I think many will hold on. It’s a poor state of affairs however, and is certainly hurting old world players
@@TabletopSaga yes, eBay prices are insane for Warhammer items. But Etsy is fine, for me, I have built a Wood Elf army and filled my Brettonian army with stuff that did not come in the starter box. The scale and detail does not detract and mixes well together with GW miniatures. Plus it is way cheaper, for now.
I think alternative sculpts are becoming more popular but I do wonder how many people want only the GW minis these days? I still think it’s a lot. But if you are happy with alternatives then more power to you! It’s certainly a more cost effective way of doubt it 👍🏼
Then why Age of Sigmar?
I hope the brainlet was fired, but let's be real, they were likely promoted.
Haha possibly! I think the crucial difference is that warhammer as a main system wasn’t selling enough. As a specialist game it doesn’t need to sell as much, so can make the profit they wanted for it much more easily. Which as I’ve said before I consider to be a good thing! Age of Sigmar is in its fourth edition already - I’ll be much happier if old world remains a nice settled game for a fair few years 👍🏼
id like to see amonster book with monsters for all races that you can add, id also like to see dogs of war, and warhamer seige back i really ejoyed seige games
Warhammer siege was great! That would be something they could easily bring back 😁
As for Dogs of War we agree, and in an earlier video (the very first tabletop saga video if I recall correctly!) we talk about using Universal Special Rules to recreate them 😁
@@TabletopSaga you see my army is a barrak Varr dwarf army, the purple siler dwarves in the lore, and in the lore they have a massive use of mercenaries in their armies so that would be brilliant for the lore of my army.
do you remember i think it was warhammer 1st or second edition they had a bestiary for monsters where you could hire monsters for your specific army
That sounds great. And top marks for putting lore first, you are more than welcome at tabletop saga with such an attitude 😁
I’m afraid not! I only got into warhammer drying sixth 🥴
I hope they never bring cathay into the game. It's unoriginal, stupid, would be bloat, and have a very different look than classic warhammer
I think that’s a valid viewpoint. I think I’d like to see them out of curiosity, but honestly just having what we used to have is enough for me!
@@TabletopSaga I'd rather have all the factions that werent included, than Border Princes, Kislev, Estalia and so on rather than Cathay, but I think it's a good call to have limited factions overall, limit the bloat, better balance, more releases for everyone instead of slow drips and so on
Are there any factions you want them to do now? I’d love to see dark elves but I actually really want chaos daemons myself!
@@TabletopSagahonestly, Vampire Counts is a staple of the old war to me! Bretonia vs VC is as classic match to me as Dwarfs vs Orcs
That’s a good choice. I’ve been amassing vampire counts units as and when I find them with the aim of getting an army of them on the table one day. We can hope they’ll be added soon! I have heard rumours…
Linehammer 😂😂😂
Ah, that old chestnut. I’m lucky that my friend group wont abuse that, and I have zero interest in tournaments!
@@TabletopSaga 😂
@@TabletopSaga I just completed my sand wargaming table this weekend 😂
I really hope that’s not a joke - sand wargaming tables are awesome 😂