Are Michael Eddington and Kira Nerys both Justified Freedom Fighters?
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Let's Just get into it..
00:00 Introduction
00:35 Kira Nerys
04:21 Michael Eddington
07:32 Why to Hate Eddington
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They should have had *Eddington* surrender himself (to save other Marquis) and *survive* in a Federation prison, with a little farewell rant at Sisko and Starfleets naivety as he's sentenced.
And then when the Dominion War gets heavy he's pardoned in return for rejoining Starfleet and becoming a war leader, as he does have a lot of combat experience, especially in the Badlands.
And he accepts after learning that the Jem Hiddar massacred all the Marquis.
The dramatic possibilities of Sisko having to work together with Eddiington, who's now a vital officer in operations in the Badlands, and in conducting hit and run raids on the Dominion.
Eddington has the respect of many other Starfleet personnel, some of whom have the attitude that maybe, just maybe he was right all along - as now the Cardassians are at War with them.
They are on the same side, and Sisko has to admit that Eddington is good at his job (he may even have to owe Eddington - what if Eddington swoops in and saves the Defiant one time?), but there's still bad blood between them.
But Starfleet doesn't care, Sisko is ordered to work with Eddington.
The character can be brought in when needed and then depart for another area of the War effort, or he could become a regular cast member that really 'stirs the possum.'
Eddington could be the voice of _"Lore"_ (this one, not Data's bro) and the audience, blaming Sisko for provoking the War while not being willing to face up to reality.
"You went into their territory, and yet you didn't realise....."
And how do the other main characters view and get on with Eddington?
Garrack might actually like him and respect his cynicism. He views Eddington as a realist, something that Starfleet lacks in his opinion.
Dax might privately agree with Eddingtons view of Starfleet, but she's Sisko's bestie, so she has to take Sisko's side, while privately pointing out to Sisko that he has a point... Then there's Ezri Dax's viewpoint, remember her opinion of the Klingon Empire?
Eddington is motivated by pure revenge for the Marquis, something that Kira and Worf can understand.
He would be a lovely morally grey character, and could be used to shine a light on how even the nice side of the Federation has dark undertones.
How would he respond to knowing about Section 31?
Would it justify his opinion of the Federation, even as he fights on the Federations side?
Or by that time would his motivations have changed?.. could he even secretly want to join them.
And would they be willing to risk having him as a member? Would they even trust him.
That's why he had so much potential, he's morally ambiguous while still being motivated by his own personal morality.
It's all already there, isn't it? Even in the name: Marquis is obviously Marquis, border nobility set to the duty of defending the frontier; but is also evocative of Marque as in a Letter of Marque, the piece of paper distinguishing a pirate from a privateer. It could have been back seeded so far as to say Eddington was tacitly or confidential and deniably supported in his war by elements within the federation.
This seems to be the perfect narrative outlet for the interpersonal drama that was largely absent from Sisko's story in the final season. Kira working with the Cardassians, The Sisko working with Eddington.
Yes, very good. I think he would be against S31.
@@KittSpiken Maquis comes from a word meaning bush or coastal scrub, Marquis comes from a word meaning borer, and the marque in Letters of Marque comes from a word meaning siezed merchandise.
The Marquis could have gotten a treaty with Cardassia and all that. But they still would have been _exterminated_ soon after the Dominion war started.
The Founders would not have allowed them to keep existing unless they could use them in a very devious way to weaken the Federation by saying, "Here, you can have peace if you want. Here's an example of our graciousness."
But the Founders would most likely still have wiped out the Marquis as a gift to the Cardassians, the newest members of their Dominion.
On the other hand, the Dominion did sign a treaty with Bajor. I can see them winning a huge moral victory by doing the same with the Maquis with fighting the Federation. They would seem more reasonable to 3rd parties.
@@charliedontsurf334that's an interesting idea. You could possibly have had a situation where if the war got too bad, Federation worlds potentially could have detected to the independent nation of Maquis and made a separate peace with the Dominion. How long it would have lasted is anyone's guess, but it's something interesting to think about
Kira targeted Bajorans in Cardassian facilities because it was pragmatic. As she explained to the Cardassian resistance, if they didn't attack Dominion facilities with Cardassians in them, the moment they identified that pattern the Dominion would station _"Cardassian shields"_ in all their facilities.
It was unfortunately a necessity of resistance warfare, especially with two distinct species involved.
And in the end the Bajoran resistance did win.
She was brutal, but she was correct.
Kira fought for freedom for herself and her world.
Eddington fought for freedom for others and their worlds.
They are both justified, but one is also selfless.
Most based take.
this take only works if you ignore that Eddington did it to make himself feel important, not for any selfless reasons. He literally brags about it
@@DarkPuppy9 If you feed a starving person - do you think that starving person gives a shit why you provide them food?
@@Mark-xh8md right because feeding people is the same as war crimes
@@DarkPuppy9 You said: "this take only works if you ignore that Eddington did it to make himself feel important, not for any selfless reasons. He literally brags about it" in response to "Kira fought for freedom for herself and her world.
Eddington fought for freedom for others and their worlds.
They are both justified, but one is also selfless".
The Maquis' cause was just. Some of their methods weren't. Just as some of the real Maquis' methods weren't. And do you also bitch and moan about Sisko and Janeway?
Always though that Eddington and Sisko were both supposed to be good people doing bad things in the name of what they believe is right, which is an awesome story. Kira on the other hand was fighting to get basic rights for her people and release themselves from a Tyrannical occupier. While they were all doing awful terrible things Kira can at least be forgiven becuase her enemy at the time was a much more obvious evil than either Sisko or Eddington and her enemy is just straight up wrong and evil.
Both are justified from their point of view but Kira isn't a hero while Eddington gave up his life of privilege to fight for people he didn't know and eventually died for.
re: Bajoran's stopping after Cardassians leave. There is an explicit alternate timeline, shown on screen, I think on TNG, where a Bajoran supremicist movement starts and Bajor starts attacking/invading nearby planets.
A meme? I assumed that you were planning to make a video exploring the nuances of the two... like this video here 🤔
Kira was Fighting for her people and her homeland,Eddington wanted to be a hero and Power for himself.
I think one thing that would have made Eddington even more justified is if he didn't maintain his position in Starfleet and did not maintain his Federation citizenship from the beginning. Remaining in those institutions brought the Federation and Starfleet into the fight.
Eddington said that the Maquis were going to declare their independence, so they should have done that immediately. That would allow the Federation to disown the Federation planets controlled by the Maquis and allowed the Maquis to fight Cardassian controlled planets occupied by the Maquis.
There is a big difference between defending your home and helping other people (justified or not) defend something that has nothing to do with you. This does not mean that he was right or wrong , but it is very different.
This is why i prefer the simple solution to intergalactic politics. Do not suffer the xenos to live.
What would Khan do?
Kira's side one, meaning she was a freedom fighter, Eddington's side lost making him a ....
Off topic; The Marquis colonies were independent, but they still abided by the *Federation ban on Genetic Engineering Humans.* ..??
_Why?_
That would have been a fantastic power up for them, having enhanced Humans (that aren't hyper aggressive megalomaniacs) would have enabled them to not only win easily against Cardassian Settlers, but also just the environment.
Superhumans are far better at developing a colony than regular Humans (along with the help of their Federation species friends, of course).
And they apparently wouldn't have to wait for the newborns to grow up to have the advantage of their capabilities.
Federation technology can alter the genes of adults - they can go as far as to turn a Hyper evolved amphibian back into a baseline Human.
They can even alter genes surreptitiously during a transporter beaming.
While it's strange that apparently only Humans can get such a huge benefit, perhaps that's because of the "unlimited potential" that the Q see in Humanity??!?
But with every Human in the Marquis colonies who wanted to be able to get upgrades, including;
_Super genus IQ with perfect recall and mathematical savant abilities,_
_Near perfect coordination and dexterity,_
_Enhanced strength and resilience,_
_Enhanced lifespan and overall health and immune system (that stays strictly within their own body - Opps on that one),_
Vulcan mental discipline and training - not a boost so much as a safety measure with emotional Humans that could do a lot of damage if they had a tantrum.
Suddenly, the Marquis become a tough nut to crack.
And why did no group of Human idealist/extremist ever set up an independent colony outside of Federation control that practised extensive Human genetic engineering?
A world of Julian Bashirs who can also _lift bro'_
And they wouldn't be bound by the no Cloak Devices rule either [the Marquis did try to get their hands on some Klingon Cloaks].
Could it be that the Federation _clandestinely_ made sure that independent groups of Humans didn't make Superhumans even if they were outside of official territory?
_...as a retcon from the first few seasons of TNG,_ of course.
As for quality control, large-scale open genetic work in specialist bespoke facilities would be safer than having to do it secretly while avoiding government oversight, that still occurs within the Federation.
And here's a big question?
*Why didn't Section 31 do that?*
Slone would love to have had Bashirs enhancements.
Kira fought for herself and one planet. Eddington fought for every planet. Not for himself but for all.
Kira fought so she wouldn't suffer and die, she didn't have a choice. Eddington fought because HE decided he couldn't let others suffer and die.
He's back!
Starfleet told the Federation it was doing all it could to stop the Maquis while placing industrial replicators and gunboats in places they could easily be captured.
Industrial replicators intended to rebuild Cardassian society who would have likely returned to their oppressive ways. Having any faith in that the civilian led Detapa Council would bring about lasting change is foolish and the Maquis knew this. I agree that the audience was conditioned to hate Eddington because Sisko hated him, until he didn't. I also, firmly believe that many fans just didn't like Michael Eddington because he wasn't an easy pill to swallow. Despite being written with a moral code as ridged as Odo's, he's an add on boring human who isn't particularly easy on the eyes (sad that this plays a role in how he's received but it's true) and is all too reminiscent of that annoying coworker no one in the office really likes. I personally always liked and appreciated Eddington. Kira is my favorite character on DS9 and I do believe that there was a major lost opportunity to have siding with Eddington. Not to the point of assisting him but, as she did in "The Maquis" parts 1 & 2, defending his actions and sympathizing with their struggles to Sisko. Had they written that in, where beloved Kira is challenging Sisko's views on Eddington, the audience would have found their own empathies for him. Great video!
good thing you dont work in politics since keeping the status quo would have kept a stable cardassian empire who wouldnt have felt the need to join the dominion
@@andymccurdy5029 Part of working in politics is using history and cultural patterns to anticipate how events will unfold. And to prove my point about the Maquis continuing to fight, the Cardassians did exactly what they always do when times get tough (this time due to the war with the Klingons), rejected positive change and embraced militaristic dominance by joining the Dominion. Those industrial replicators were not the magic items that would have convinced Dukat and Central Command to change their ways. They had to experience what the Bajorans and Maquis did in order to take those first positive steps.
There hasn't been a stable Cardassia since before TNG. The Cardassians have shown no hint they wouldn't keep colonising after rebuilding and the Fed have shown they would roll over and let border colonies be slaughtered.
I adore Eddington.
based
Same.
Hold on @5:25 is that the Nintendo switch noise?
he lives
some people are very "Jeffersonian" about technology, some people are very "Orwellian". i think its fair to say, Gene was probably much more Jeffersonian and technology like replicators were solutions to lifes problems. in modern times, many people at least recognize the Orwellian dangers of technology, and it seems to me that Jeffersonian technological organization like social media or e-government are mixed bag at best.
how would we get back onto Genes Jeffersonian vision? is he really banking on alien contact to trigger some sort of breakthrough for humanity and unifies us and makes us all "in this together"? i think Dominion War Trek def explores some of those Orwellian dangers, i would wonder if in-universe, people could ever get back to looking at technology as something Jeffersonian.
also, unfettered access to replicators would presumably create massive chaos to markets and public safety. the addict in me wishes i could just replicate myself some designer drugs, guns, and guitars 😂
cheers!
Thoughtful comment.
is the difference the difference of having circumstances thrust upon you, versus putting yourself into those circumstances? maybe the difference between reaction and action matter for the moral difference someone who is a victim versus someone who is an ally of a victim?
From the Marquis: The Cardassian government collapsing is a great reason to press an advantage, not wait for them to get their act together enough to come to the negotiation table. There is no reason to believe the New Cardassian government would not consider all treaties drafted by the previous regime as withstanding - for the sake of their legitimacy if nothing else - maintaining continuity. There's also no reason to believe in the Civilian Government's stability. Central Command could regain power overnight and circumstances dependent, could just as quickly redouble their efforts in combating the Marquis.
From the Federation: the nature of the Marquis is incredibly useful. When the Federation returns to the negotiating table, with the Civilian Cardassian government they can condemn their actions, while maintaining sympathy for their cause; the very same cause at the heart of the new Cardassian government. Assuming much of the Marquis would submit to the Federation for a blanket pardon and assurances that their land would not be ceded to a foreign power, the Marquis is giving the Federation a favorable position in the drafting of new treaties; offering concession rather than begging them.
All said: whatever happened next on Cardassia is presumption. Whether the civilian government would prove afiable or temporary is idle speculations. The fact of the matter is while the internal sovereignty of the empire is in dispute the sovereignty of the imperial periphery is to be necessarily neglected.
Would it not be negligent of the frontiersmen to put their security back in the hands of the people who so recently compromised it?
I'll grant that the newly formed Detapa Council government may have been willing to take a different approach to the Maquis colonies than the Central Command regime, but if so that is never expressly communicated on screen. I think it's fair enough to assume that their strategic policy toward the Maquis colonies changed only insomuch as their military resources were diverted by the Klingon invasion. More information about Cardassian politics at that moment (than what we have in canon) could certainly change that evaluation, but I think it's fair to assume that without an explicitly shown shift we can more-or-less take it as consistent. While the Maquis perhaps could have tried to open a dialogue and wind down hostilities, so could the Cardassians. If the Detapa Council wanted to put an end to the conflict with the Maquis, I'm confident the Maquis would be entirely open to listening. It is on the oppressive force to initiate detente, not the liberatory force.
I disliked Eddington the first time I watched DS9 because I was 12. Since gaining some degree of political awareness, I've understood him and the Maquis to be in the fairly unambiguous right, just as the Bajorans were. They may take specific actions that exceed what is ethically justifiable, but on the whole they are the good guys. Indeed, part of the point of DS9 is that Starfleet is sometimes the bad guys, and For the Cause/For the Uniform is supposed to demonstrate that. Along with Quark's The Jem'Hadar monologue, Eddington's monologue about the problems with the Federation is some of the hardest-hitting and most-earned critique we get anywhere in the entire franchise. It's terrifying to me that many people can watch Trek all the way through and not pick up on that, but then we seem to be living the a not-dissimilar political moment ourselves.
The Maquis were operating in relative isolation with no direct diplomatic ties or economic support. While I can understand how reasonable it might be for the Federation to supply a starved Cardassia with industrial replicators, those are also an extremely reasonable target for Maquis seizure. The "industrial" description implies to me that they can be used for the production of military materials as well as simple logistics or humanitarian necessities, and the Maquis could doubtless use them in much the same way. Imagine Ukraine intercepting a shipment of basic industrial supplies headed to Russia right now -- that seems to me a thoroughly reasonable strategic action.
Terrorists, freedom-fighters, and revolutionaries are all the same thing depending on who wins, how much time has passed, and who is writing the history.
people need to understand this point: justice is no more than organized vengeance that is supported by the society that benefits from the action, such as locking up a convicted rapist for life. this also applies to people who commit acts that one group may call immoral but another may call victory. my point is the perception of the act is what dictates what the actual event is to be called. so for most bajorans, and probably for most marquis, kira's and eddington's actions are justifiable to the eyes of the benefactors: and at the same time those actions are deplorable to others. i think it is best that people are taught at a young age to learn to agree to disagree, because everyone's perception is different from one another. this i think will help promote tolerance. great video
Just a hunch from the different things you covered mainly how you went to research half way through the video process to look at the Cardassian Dissidents movement...
I think you must have read my very long comment on that meme post n took what i said seriously and thank you for that if you did. Maybe others brought up how the change in Government at that point in the series could very well have been the best thing to happen to Cardassian culture and the marquis situation... but i know i certainly covered almost every angle you did in that comment and I'm glad you see it in a same light that both are definitely terrorists but only Kira was fighting for her Freedom. It may not have been easy for her or immediate but after the occupation when Sisko drafted her into Operations officer. She didn't want to carry on waring with Cardassians they won and they merely had to focus on keeping it that way and rebuilding what they had cherished. Eddington couldn't see a harbouring point because the claims to those areas were tenuous at best to begin with (meaning when the marquis began fighting back) i don't think Eddington would of stopped until they controlled Cardassia which i think its the only thing that i hold that suggests he couldn't be a section 31 operative.
I thought of this often watching the Eddington episodes. Even though it doesn't feel right, I have to agree with the commentor who said history is written by the Victor.
Think the issues is that with Kira a lot of what she did during the Occupation we were mostly Told, but with Eddington we were Shown what he did
I am going to say this, I never liked the Bajorian Resistance being referred to as terrorists. Yes, I know the creators said they were, and I know they meet the basic textbook definition of a terrorist. Which is violence for political change using unconventional methods. I see them as more like the French Resistance from World War 2. They sometimes targeted civilians, but they always had a military objective. The Maqui started out this way. However, they took it to far. It would be like if the French Resistance continued to attack West Germany after the war was over. They had won. Kira did not continue to attack Cardassia when they left. Eddington would have continued attacking until there were no Cardassians left.
Criticism; There is a big difference between the Marquis colonies and modern Earth "regional disputes."
The Marquis colonies were very recent. They weren't the homeland of the Marquis. How many were even born on the planets they had settled on?
It was a dumping ground of Federation malcontents who gravitated there because of the weak Federation presence - the Badlands really helped with that pull factor.
The situation is very different due to technology and new territory.
There's a massive number of suitable planets that are unoccupied.
There's no suitable land on Earth that's _unoccupied._
That's the big reason for one current Earth situation, one group took territory from another group a while back, because they wanted their own Homeland... so they took someone else's (yes they both claim a divine right to the same land).
If Earth currently had nice suitable uninhabited continents to spare, there would be a lot less territorial "disputes."
Meanwhile, moving and logistics are far better with the Federation.
The Marquis could have been set up with some very nice plantets far away from _diplomatically sensitive areas_ and actually been better off in the bargain, if the Federation had had the brains to offer that solution.
Somewhere above or below the Galactic disk, where no other advanced power resides.
Relocating the entire population and giving them the technology and resources to build even more proporous Colonies is well within Starfleets resources.
Enough industrial replicators and their own fleet of slightly obsolete Federation ships.
And a treaty with the Federation where the Federation won't interfere, but will come running to defend them if they're attacked by another power - that is if it's an unprovoked attack.
It would be a better quality of life.
And they could even take their graveyards with them. There's only a generation or two buried there mostly.
This is not the ancient home of their peoples.
It could also actually be a good release valve for the Federation.
A win win win situation.
But really, the Federation should have invited the Klingons to join in back during the Border Wars [a decade before TNG] and their combined force would have steamrolled the Cardassians.
Who would have unconditionally surrendered to the Federation rather than be occupied by the Klingons.
It would have resulted in a far better situation, barring act of Orb vs Wormhole.
The Federation DID offer the DMZ colonists a chance to resettle on less diplomatically hazardous worlds. The colonists refused.
That's why the treaty was made the way it was; it was a compromise to accommodate the colonists' wishes.
Hey. I want your home. You can always move, right? Give me your home. And car. And anything else of yours I want. Because I want it. You can always get more, right?
The Kira we see in the early series absolutely would have used the same methods Eddington did if she had the chance. She grew a lot as a character through the series but her actions at the time weren't limited by morality but availability. Now, comparison about motivation and justification is a totally different topic, I am only referring to the actions themselves.
Kira was fighting ALL Cardassian who unjustly occupied Bajor
Were?
So I don’t actually hate Eddington, and quite often he is right. He was short sighted and the entire reason the Federation signed the treaty with Cardassians was because of Wolf 359. They were severally weakened for a time and getting into another fight didn’t seem wise. There is plenty of blame to around, and as we see “In the Pale Moonlight” no one is clean.
I'm not justifying anything, but I'm just going to say, Foreign Policy is an incredibly messy, but necessary endeavor.
I agree with most of this with the exception that eddington inspired the marquis to take the fight a step further and start taking worlds that were already cardassian
The Cardassians would have just come back.
OK so I'm going to probably piss some people off. I'm a Navy vet several members of my family have served in the military. I think Eddington is judged so badly is the uniform. This is my feeling but I understand how he feels I don't think I would cross the line he did. But I look around me and I feel like everything I did in the name of my country was for nothing and it hurts and it makes me mad but I still believe in the system. I can understand but I can't get behind him. Yes he's a freedom fighter and he's a criminal and it's those shades of gray that people will have to fight with I guess.
For the algorithm 😊
6:30 NOW WOULDN'T THIS BE A STAR TREK SHOW TO SEE!!!
one where star fleet is the actual bad guy. Not due to outside influence of changelings or whatever ... just outright does a bad thing
When I watched (years and years and years ago), I was rooting for Eddington. I knew he likely wouldn't win. The Federation sent colonists to several worlds, let them build something, made it their homes and then just abandoned them. Told them to leave. (The STTNG episode is particularly poignant.) And not just to anyone, but the fascist, militaristic Cardassians. And then, the Federation starts fighting against their own (former) citizens, aiding the Cardassians. A good analogy would be Britain in the 1750s ceding the American Colonies to France and telling the colonists, "Well, come back to England now." And then joining the French to fight the colonists. The Federation's policy toward the Maquis was unjust. Eddington's decision was that of a true Starfleet officer-troubled by his conscience of what his organization is doing and disobeying orders to do the right thing. (Sound familiar, Kirk, Sisko?)
I'm going to do it, and I'm going to hate myself for it... I think you meant Were, not Was.
Was?
I like Eddington, more than Kira. Mostly.
simple fact of the matter is that Kira was a successful "freedom fighter" and Eddington was one that failed. They were fundamentally no different.
Kira: Yes
Eddington: No
Kira fought to free her world, Eddington wanted to be a hero
*Exactly*
Federation settlers were trying to expand the federation against the wishes of the treaty. This isn’t land that they’re native to. They just forced their presence on there, expecting the Cadassians to simply tolerate it. Given the federation made no attempt to alleviate the concerns of the Cardassians. It can be argued that the federation intentionally allowed its citizens to be in danger to strike up another conflict with Cardassia.
Plus, they had the option and resources to leave and go somewhere else. The Federation, while dumb for how they negotiated the treaty with the Cardassians where the planetary trades occurred, was going to actually move the colonists somewhere else and support them as they start a new. Is it perfect? No, but pragmatically it's the best option. The Bajoran who escaped either were never on Bajoran to begin with when the Occupation started and could easily slip by to safer areas, or if on Bajor, had the funds to bribe a Cardassian or someone like a Zepolite to book passage to a very welcoming Federation or neutral state. It's the same with most refugee situations now. The ones who can easily escape are already relatively wealthy enough to book passage and potentially have connections where they are heading. The poor either have to stay and suffer, or if they do escape, have to face ridicule and racism from other places they could go. (This is the situation in Gaza, Syria, Rwanda, etc)
@@navibc31 noted
Cardassians aren't native there either, and the Human et cetera presence seems to predate the Cardassian presence. Good point though!
I would say Kira was more justified because her planet was enslaved and she grew up under Cardassina occupation and that's all she knew
I disagree about star fleet creation of the changeling virus. That was an act of desperation provoked by a race of beings with a genocidal superiority complex.
Defeat whether by force or capitulation would have meant the extinction of individual agency for all federation allied worlds.
It was also not done by Starfleet, but by Section 31. Which is another reason Sisko should be serving a life sentence in a labor camp: Allowing torture of a Federation citizen (Sloan) so vile and invasive that even the Nazis would have balked at it
History is written by the victors. Bajor won it's independence. The Marquis did not. Victory is the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist.
Ben Maxwell was right.
I'm a little disappointed in this video since it didn't really do much a dive into the matter of the decisions of the colonists the Maquis fought for. I'm glad it was brought up, but it really needs a deeper dive than was covered here.
Now, I need to be clear, I'm not making a statement on the right or wrong of Eddington and the Maquis in the matter based on this - I wiffle-waffle on this too much to dare attempt such. But I DO know it definitely effects the matter and deserves a more proper deep dive into it. The real-life comparison(ceding Alaska to Russia to end a theoretical future conflict) doesn't really impact the morality of the matter any differently than the completely fictional situation. At the end of the day the only thing that's relevant is whether or not the colonists KNEW what they were getting into if they stayed. If the Federation properly warned them about how the Cardassians tended to treat the people they occupy, then an argument can certainly be made that they're just suffering the consequences of their decision(and given we're talking about the Federation, its entirely possible they weren't).
I get that its tough to ask people to just up and move. I get that it's tough for people to do that in the face of a changing situation. But it IS nonetheless a completely different thing from suddenly being invaded and forcefully placed under a new regime against your will and with no foreknowledge of what's coming and no opportunity to make the choice to depart before being put under their thumb. And this difference, and how it impacts the way an issue should be approached, ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES a much deeper dive than we got here.
It probably could support an entire video on its own, in fact.
Welcome to every argument made is a massive reach
You going to expand there
So we should just give pass to Kira murdering children ? OK .
Yea.. Don't think we should do that.. ;P
She is he isnt. He betrayed hisnowth and used his position to betray. If we quit starfleet snd then id support him.
Both were terroists. The only difference was who was being terroized.
He should've just find a better hobby and not bother other people
Both had reasons, even good ones, however there IS critical differences...
They ARENT however same thing. He WAS worse. He didn't really have any real remorse if remember right. She even admits what she did WAS pretty bad HOWEVER she didn't at all like it. An even DID feel a bit guilty. She gets "a pass" cuz despite what Dukat says... it WAS Genocide or slavery of Bajor as a whole... so a "rung above" STILL IS above. It's also the willingness to attack targets that seem to matter. May have to go back an watch the arc but wasn't he less then discriminatory an fairly heartless, even a SF traitor. While given the chance Kira an most others woudla gladly used other options. Being how they was whole series they did Guerrilla War not outta want they LITERALLY had no options at the time. Allowing to be able to move was STILL that at the very least. Maybe woulda been a lot different had they fought just defensive an to drive the Fascist at the time Cardi Union outta the Maquis "homelands" at the time
How was he worse? How much remorse do you think that the members of the Maquis' namesake had as regards fighting Germans?
Unfortunately the biggest difference between Kira and Eddington is Kira while she did terrible things to the Cardassians and Bajoran who worked with them as time wore on and Kira spent more time with the Federation something changed in Kira and that was not having unconditional hate for the Cardassians she would even go on to have Cardassians such as Gal Dukat, Garrick, and Gal Dumar as her allies throughout the years in the case of Garrick abd Dumar Kira would be instrumental in helping them throw off the Dominion controlling Cardassia. In Eddington's case his continued push against the Cardassians while they had to fight the Klingons hindered Cardassian resources a d Eddington even fought against Star Fleet and Federation ships. Eddington's continued fight against the Cardassians was so costly that after Gal Dukat joined the Dominion and gifted Cardassia Prime to the Dominion led to the whole of the Maquis in the Alpha Quadrant to be wiped out. The Dominion's defeat of the Maquis was so far reaching that it even made its way to Voyager which on the otherside of the galaxy where you had former Maquis members living, working, fighting, and building lives with Star Fleet officers. End of the day Kira is different than Eddington because she could move past Cardassians of the past and say not all of them were horrible individuals and some even could be called friends, Eddington was probably the cause of everyone he knows either dying or them to alienate him for the rest of his life.
Well, first, you're incorrect about the colonists. The Federation was supposed to remove those colonists, DS9 makes it quite clear. They CHOSE to remain. The Cardassians didn't want them there, didn't want to oppress them, they just wanted those worlds.
Eddington's actions and Kira's actions are basically identical. They are both freedom fighters/terrorists. There is no difference at all there.
But, one thing Eddington is that Kira is not: A traitor. He betrayed the Federation, he betrayed his oath to Starfleet, he betrayed his friends and his colleagues. He placed his name alongside ones like Arnold and Quisling. And he did not have to. Eddington could have made his position clear. Resigned his commission. Become a Maquis fighter openly. It was his choice.
A person can be a freedom fighter/insurgent/terrorist - it all depends on your point of view (and who wins). A traitor is a traitor is a traitor.
It was their home.
@@joshuadurant1250 Sure. They had good reason to do it. But, unlike the Bajorans, they were not being oppressed by the Cardassians or invaded by them. The Cardassians hadn't been there long enough TO oppress them.
What? They were murdering colonists. They started in TNG with the episode Picard refused to move colonists and Wesley left with the traveler. They started by oppresding them. Opression doesn't have a timeline it can start as soon as two groups interact for the first time.
@@joshuadurant1250 Except that it wasn't oppression, it was an attempt at removal. As I said, they didn't want the colonists. They wanted the planets.
"But, one thing Eddington is that Kira is not: A traitor. He betrayed the Federation, he betrayed his oath to Starfleet, he betrayed his friends and his colleagues. He placed his name alongside ones like Arnold and Quisling. "
LOL, no.
Is Claus Graf von Stauffenberg also a traitor, alongside Arnold and Quisling?
He swore an oath too. He too betrayed that oath.
By doing the right thing. We're all sad it didn't work, but it was the right thing.
i dont think benjamin deserves to be in jail . sometimes i like it when the bad guys win
Did nazi war criminals deserve to be in jail? Because what Sisko did makes what they did pale to insignificance by comparison. He attempted the genocide of an entire planetary population of innocent civilians. Even Heydrich would have vomited.
Naa ,Eddington and the whole Marquis could have relocated , the federation sighed a treaty to stop a war. Kira fought an invader , who was raping her home world , HER HOME WORLD! The Marquis were just being stupid and stubborn , you cant tell me the federation couldn't find them a world with in that they could have moved to , to i don't know , do there part to prevent a war. They were dumb and they paid the price , I have never had any sympathy for them. They could have been rational , but they wanted to fight , and then the whined and bitched that the Starfleet wasn't there to rescue them , the fools got what they had coming .
Hey, I want your home. You can just get a new one. And if you don't want to leave, I should be allowed to do whatever I want to you to make you leave. After all, I want your home.
Kira. Yes
Eddington. No
Kira yes
Eddington double yes
The bajorans are the Palestinians of Star Trek. The Maquis are closer to a lot of the insurgent groups that existed in the decolonized world. OAS in Algeria and UNITA in Angola comes to mind
Oversimplification. Typical of both sides of the equation. I'm right, their wrong is the mandate for both sides. Ignorance manifested into violence and atrocities.
Good Job!
@@marcusanton95 its not bajorans had a better reason to what they are
@@rootin222 I was referring to your statement about the Palestinian conflict. Both sides claim ownership over the land, both say their claim is older and therefore the only one that matters.
With the Bajorans it was very clear who was there first, who was being exterminated and enslaved. The Middle East is not as simple as a TV series story arch. I spent several years in that region over my military career, First Gulf War, Second Gulf War, Afghanistan. Now my sons are in that region, nothing is settled, only the death toll rises.
To claim to know the truth where religion. Much less 3 competing religious are concerned is a statement made by fools.
Good luck with it.
@@marcusanton95 look I don’t understand why you had to over analyze things I think you’re tacitly wrong. The Palestinians are entitled to every single inch of that land. Sorry man I don’t care about your military service I could meet in Okada fighter who’s been fighting in his make believe holy war for 20 years, and could make the same argument .you’re making an straw men as though your military service is the one all be all for knowing this type of topic.
@@rootin222 Why analyze? Really? We analyze in order to understand. Otherwise, we are swept away by emotional responses, as you have shown yourself to be.
You could have chosen to have an open dialogue, instead you responded by insulting me, laying my intellectual honesty on the heap of humanities lies. You made insignificant my service to my nation.
Yes, emotional response, that comes from having either a weak, badly formed argument or a lack of analyzing the subject and being embarrassed by a random individual on RUclips.
I do not claim to know everything. I do know where religion and zealots cross into open warfare, there can be no peace. This was my sole reason for mentioning my military experience in that region. My statement, the only thing that changes is the number of the dead is the truth.
You have offered no proof, no facts to be checked, no logical reason for either side to claim ownership of the land. None. You've allowed images, half-truths to pass right through the analytical part of your mind, straight to the emotional parts of your brain.
There is no peace, no understanding, acceptance, wisdom, or solid ground to stand upon if you are ruled by emotions. So why do I have to analyze everything, seems like a silly question for someone who claims to know the truth of things.
Have a wonderful weekend.
Ill always argue kiera isnt a terrorist shes a freedom fighter who used terror tactics but she was fighting a alien invasion not looking to force political change
eddington was a muppet looking for glory all the settlers were 100% in the wrong they were told dont settle there they did it any way their greviences were 100% political an they took up arms to settle their differences an they attacked the federation
Did their namesake attack those French who worked with the Germans?